Junk, and this Quarterly

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Junk and this quarterly, Simon brings the case against his wife, Liz.

Liz is an avid subscriber to the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, and she keeps a big stack of back issues right next to the toilet.

Simon says, Toss the magazines.

Liz doesn't care what Simon says, she's gonna read them.

Eventually, who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

People ask me, aren't you proud of yourself?

I tell them, no, not in the slightest.

I've done so much harm and made so many charlatans quite rich.

I opened a Pandora's box and I released a Frankenstein's monster.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Simon and Liz, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

Yes.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he has a competing interest, having been the former food and wine columnist for Men's Journal Magazine, the premier American magazine of men's journaling?

Yes.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Do you like how I stole your old joke?

Simon and Liz, you may be seated.

I love it.

But I must clarify,

I myself have a fondness for magazines.

Indeed, I was a magaziner,

having written for New York Times magazine, as I still do.

The Judge John Hodgman column net appears there every week.

You can submit disputes to that at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

But I was also the food and I have to, slight correction, specifically non-wine alcohol columnist.

Oh, thanks.

Even I, even I could not stretch my imposter syndrome to encompass wine expertise.

That tested my fraudulency for men's men's journal.

Thank you, Mark Adams, for putting me on the road.

It was an incredible opportunity to eat a lot of free food.

But this dispute is about magazines.

So Simon and Liz, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the courtroom.

I was quoting a person.

I wonder if either of you know who that person is and what they were talking about.

Simon, why don't we start with you?

I would say that that was

Mark Lewison writing in

the first of his three-part series on the biography of the Beatles.

Tune in.

Very specific.

Very, very prepared.

And

very obscure to me.

Bad news, it was Peter Giralnik writing in Last Train to Memphis, the first of his multi-volume biography of Elvis Presley.

Okay, so you're a music guy, established, Simon, but this is about magazines, specifically magazines regarding cats and dogs and other animals.

Because Liz,

you are a veterinarian, correct?

That's right.

Not a hobbyist.

You don't have the subscription to the Journal of American Veterinary and Medicine, Medical Association, just because you're a lurker.

That's right.

I have a feeling, since I came up with this obscure cultural reference that it might have more to do with cats and dogs and other animals than it does with the Beatles.

Although, I guess the Beatles are animals to argue.

Okay, I see your point now.

I've come around to you, Simon.

Good guess.

But now, Liz, it's your turn to guess.

What is your guess, if I may ask?

Um,

would it help if I told you that it was an article?

It's from an article in the New York Times that's a newspaper that has a magazine called the New York Times magazine.

Uh, not, I believe it was 2019, September 25th, 2019,

September 25th?

Great question.

Great question.

I leave in New York Times every day.

Great question.

Access your memory palace.

Go back to the September room.

25th.

I don't know what page it is because I got it on the internet edition.

Judge Hodgman, you weren't counting on our litigant being Mary Lou Henner.

No, I wasn't.

Does she have perfect recall?

She does.

I believe she has perfect recall.

Yeah.

That's incredible.

I wish I had Mary Lou Henner here to ask.

I wish we had Judd Hirsch here.

That would be great.

No, hey, you know what?

I love Judd Hirsch.

I love Mary Lou Henner.

We've got Simon and Liz,

the best.

So now it's time, Liz, for you to guess.

I bought you as much time.

Did you have a guest prepared?

No, I did not.

I wanted it to be relevant to actually what you were saying.

What's your favorite TV show?

Oh my gosh, my favorite TV.

It's got to be All Creatures Great and Small.

Sure.

So your guess is all creatures great and small?

What?

I haven't seen it.

I know.

Tragic.

I've read it, to be fair.

That is fair.

Is that your guess, All Creatures Great and Small?

Sure.

Season four season finale, would you say?

Of course.

September 25th, 2019.

Terrific guess.

All guesses are wrong.

The quote is from Wally Conron.

Don't know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, C-O-N-R-O-N.

As quoted in the New York Times 9-25, 2019,

with regard to his deepest regret, creating the Labradoodle.

He's a dog breeder, and he was tasked with breeding a relatively hypoallergenic dog, guide dog, for a vision-impaired woman whose husband was very allergic to dogs.

So he came up with this idea to,

you know, when a, when a poodle and a labrador love each other very much,

they get together with Wally Conron and they create a labradoodle.

And he did not,

he was not,

he was not very happy because the demand skyrocketed, leading some even worse than usual breeding practices to create as many labradoodles as possible.

And this is a quote from him.

I find that the biggest majority of these dogs are either crazy or have a hereditary problem.

And Amy Murphy counters, Amy Murphy, of course, being the president of the Australian Labradoodle Club of America, begged to differ, quoting, All dogs are crazy.

I feel like I can't comment on that because I'd be insulting so many of my patients.

You got a lot of Labradoodles come through.

I know, exactly.

Wally Conron has said this over and over again: it's his deepest regret creating the Labradoodle.

But you know, I've met many Labradoodles, and they're very spirited and fun.

And I'll leave it at that.

All right.

So who seeks justice in this courtroom?

That is me.

Simon, you want Liz to get rid of her big magazine pile.

This is a big magazine pile in the bathroom.

How long has it been there?

It has been there for as long as I can remember.

It's your earliest memory.

He is a goldfish.

In this house.

Yeah, we've been in the house now for 10 years almost.

Okay, and you're married.

And how long have you been married for?

For 12 years.

And I believe you're in San Antonio, Texas.

Yep.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say Texas that way.

I don't even know why that came out, though.

That's what we said.

Terrific.

Yeah, that's right.

Go Colin Allred.

So anyway,

and it bothers you.

Yes.

You find it to be unsightly.

Yes.

Let's take a look at it.

You send in a photo of this.

And all the photos, of course, will be available at the Judge John Hodgman show page at maximumfund.org, as well as on our Instagram.

And here's the pile of magazines.

Ooh, Liz, this does not look good.

These are, first of all, I can't keep saying the Journal of American Veterinary and Medical Association or whatever.

It's very hard to say.

So I'm going to go by their own abbreviation, which is Javma.

That's right.

Javma is a thick book, you know?

And it comes out every two weeks.

So they really.

It comes out every two weeks.

I mean, this looks like the, I don't know, like the vogue holiday issue.

I haven't seen thick magazines like this since the 90s.

This is unusual.

They must have a lot of advertising in Javma.

No, it's actually all research articles.

So they tend to be pretty long.

So even they don't have

a bunch of perfume inserts.

I don't want to smell what they had to offer.

John in his mind is just absolutely expensing dinner at Le Cirque to Javma.

Absolutely.

doing it right now uh this one will be on javma

but i mean jesse thorne is there or is there not dog cologne

sure i believe that there's dog cologne i don't know that there's dog cologne but it seems like there would be should we come up with our own brand of dog cologne i think so i mean i'll ask i'll ask i'll ask a veterinarian liz

Should we put cologne on dogs or what?

Is that good for them or bad for them?

The only context in which I use dog cologne, because I do use it regularly, is

after we have expressed their anal glands, they smell really bad and you have to mask it.

That's no joke.

That's that's a medical thing.

That's why I wear cologne.

I learned a lot in so short a time just then.

So only for after glands use.

Got it.

Okay.

How many of these this is a tall pile?

of printed material.

I'm guessing that there may be between 20, 25, 30, maybe even issues here.

Is that right?

I think it was more than we would have 45, maybe.

45?

It's almost reaching the seat.

That's great.

You could almost put a cup of coffee on top of there.

It's almost a side table of Javma.

And so, Liz, you're a subscriber.

Tell me a little bit about Javma.

What does that give you?

The news on the latest dog models or what?

Like they tell you what dogs are coming out this year?

Reviews?

No, it is actually research articles.

So it's, you know, they're medical articles.

And

so I'm a member of the AVMA, so the American Veterinary Medical Association.

And so we received this.

It's one of the main publications.

There are lots of different veterinary medical publications, but this is.

You get it for being a member.

Yes, exactly.

Is this the premier professional journal of veterinarians?

Yes, I would say so.

Or is it the fiery young upstart?

It is the premier.

Okay.

So you have to have it for professional reasons.

That's right.

And what's what

how

often do you sit down and read a Javma?

Maybe once every morning, perhaps?

On maybe what we call a regular schedule?

So

that is the intention.

And, you know, some of these articles, they're very long articles, but you can kind of get the information you need from reading the abstract or maybe the results or conclusion, depending on what you're interested in.

Right.

The problem is that over the last, you know, for no particular reason, four to eight years,

I've taken to doom scrolling news articles on my phone.

Oh, okay.

Instead of working through your stack of javas.

That's right.

That's right.

So,

yeah, they have been slightly neglected.

And, you know, I do feel like it's important information.

It's a little complicated because they're also available digitally.

So whenever I search for a relevant topic, I can find it on my digital kind of veterinary boards type thing.

So the, but there are abstracts.

So, Jesse, you probably know this in academic journals.

They're quite long and detailed, the articles, but there's often what's called an abstract.

What on the internet they call a T-L-D-R,

which

stands for toilet-length

deep reading.

I'm not familiar with abstracts.

I'm familiar with verses from the abstract, the Tribe Cold Quest song.

Ah, there is.

Oh, my God.

Back in the day when I was a teenager, before I had status, before I had a page or you could find the abstract now.

Pops used to say it reminded me of BB.

I said, Well, Daddy, don't you know the things, etc.

Cycles.

Way that Bobby Brown is just amping like Michael.

Yeah, I remember that world.

Yeah.

Great song.

Great song.

Simon, it looks like you've opened one of these magazines that you have deigned to touch to show a certain page, a certain diagram.

We have this in the exhibit A

underneath the caption dumb pile.

Did you select this page to feature for us?

No, no.

So after we went through the process of submitting the story and getting interviewed and selected, I came in a few days later and that's what I found looking at me.

So.

Oh, okay.

This is just what you discovered.

Yes, exactly.

And that's why I consider that passive aggressive.

I think she was trying to, you know.

throw it in my face, prove a point.

You know, she's reading it, but look at what she's reading.

Why don't we look at what she's reading?

Liz, can you explain what this diagram is illustrating?

I can.

I can.

This poor German Shepherd up top.

Figure A, there's figure A, B, C, and D in this.

He has EPI, so he does not digest his food well.

And so he has diarrhea with fat in it.

That's what they're doing.

Wow.

And I had a case of EPI that I was treating.

I'm so sorry to hear that.

Okay.

In a dog.

I never treat a dog unless I have had the same thing as the dog.

And so I was reading this relevant article and, you know, was mid-reading this article and I left it open to resume at a later date.

This was not a passive aggressive move.

This is medical research.

Just to be clear, this diagram shows

is an A, figure A, B, C, and D.

Figure A is a, looks like an illustration or maybe a photograph of a German shepherd.

And figure B is a photograph of what you call diarrhea diarrhea with fat in it.

Boy, oh boy, have I made the children who listen to this show very happy

today or what?

Then figure C is another German shepherd.

And figure D is what, Liz?

I'll make you say.

So C is actually the same shepherd after treatment.

And D, which is the perfectly formed stool, is that shepherd

stool after treatment.

Oh, God, or whatever.

I can't believe we finally, after how many years, we got someone to say perfectly formed stool.

Nine out of 10.

Even the East German judge agrees.

Holy, holy guacamole.

Holy.

Well, okay.

So this is the same German shepherd now looking much more Hail and Arty.

That's right.

I mean, I don't know.

If I were coming to relieve myself at the toilet and this was facing me face up on a stack, Simon says it was passive aggression.

You say just relevant reading information.

What's the truth?

Well, I mean, I have a good story.

I can actually tell you the dog's name, the case that I'm working on.

The dog's name is Sherman.

And so you have gleaned some information from these journals, but you suggest that you don't read them regularly.

Before Sherman came into your

office, when was the last time you looked at one of these 40 journals?

Six months, maybe?

Six months.

And may I verify that you were researching Sherman's condition while yourself

sitting down in the bathroom?

Yes.

Not to be too personal, but I mean, you put them there.

That's right.

Generally, when you're sitting down in the bathroom, you're not working through the stack.

That's not a euphemism.

That's a real thing.

You're not reading the magazines.

Unfortunately.

But I have this kind of optimistic idea that one day I will.

What's the oldest issue in the stack?

December 2020.

Yep.

December 15, 2020, volume 257, number 12.

We will not post this on our Instagram because it has your name and address on it because you are, after all, a subscriber.

But it has a wonderful, almost impressionistic painting of three very curious-looking pigs.

But I mean, is the information in this in this issue of JAVMA even still relevant?

I mean, are you really going to go back and read this one?

Okay, so, you know, veterinary medicine doesn't have as much funding as human medicine.

They don't redo the same studies every few years.

So usually the information is going to be pretty relevant as to whether or not I'm going to get to it.

Again, that's that's the kind of the optimistic idea that I will get to this valuable information.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

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Let them know.

Jesse and John sent you.

Obviously, you're reading these magazines in private.

So, Simon, you can't verify how often or not often that Liz is actually reading these.

So, Liz, I need to rely on you to be honest here.

Okay.

You haven't read these magazines.

You've got four years worth of JAVMA under...

under your toilet and you don't really read them and you only read about German Shepherd poop

because you knew you were going to be on this podcast and you needed to come up with something to say, right?

That's my accusation.

That's my accusation.

That is untrue.

I actually stumbled across that article and then, because I was actually reading it.

So I guess prior to that, it had been six months.

And then I stumbled across the article and I went, hey, I'm actually treating a case of this right now.

This is relevant, thus proving my point.

Have you read any other articles in any of those JAVMAs within the past year?

I read other articles in that particular JAVMA since that was the one I picked up and I was leafing through.

Is this one still on top of the pile?

Yeah, it would be.

And we've added more since then that are now in a pile next to the fridge instead of in the bathroom.

So there's four or five.

Wait, when you say you read other articles in that same issue, do you mean that there was one instance of reading?

Wherein you read this one that was relevant and also looked at some other ones, then put it down and never touched it again?

That would be a fair characterization.

Yes.

Realistically, in the current configuration, how long will it take you to get through

the information that you don't have to read cover to cover.

Yes.

But like, how long does it take for you to

all these words sound gross at this point, but let's just say process one issue.

Okay.

And I will point out that this is the, you know, veterinary journal.

I treat dogs and cats and I only read articles that are relevant to dogs and cats because really I'm looking for, you know, what's clinically relevant for me.

Yeah, of course.

So like half the articles write up.

We all skip the bird section.

So,

you know, I can probably get the valuable information that I want out of one issue in maybe half an hour.

Half an hour.

Yes.

And on a daily basis.

So I'm just trying to do the math here.

Simon, what is your career?

Are you a mathematician?

Are you a magazine mathematician by any chance?

I am not.

I've been a stay-at-home dad and I'm in grad school right now.

For what, if I may ask?

Social work.

Oh, wonderful.

But hey, both very admirable careers.

Good jobs.

Literal good jobs.

But Simon, let's do the math together then.

Yes.

Half an hour.

That's 40 issues.

That's 20 hours of reading.

And then

you're you're getting a new one

every other week.

It's worse than you thought, Simon.

See, that's how it piles up so quickly.

Wow.

You were giving me less credit.

Simon, what magazines do you want to stack next to the toilet?

I would like to replace it.

There's nothing I want to put there.

Nothing at all.

Nope, not yet.

I mean, like you said, maybe once I get my social work degree, I'll have my own magazines that I can start piling up next to it, depending on what the verdict is.

But as of now, nothing.

Magazines are not my thing.

Judge Hodman, this is the problem with the American magazine industry.

You can only subscribe to magazines relevant to your advanced degrees.

Absolutely.

That's why I subscribe to Cat Fancy

because I am a professional cat fancier.

That's why I subscribe to the Journal of People Who Went to Broadcasting School for three weeks.

I love magazines, but they are a scourge.

They do come into your house and they never leave.

Simon,

let me clarify.

This is a shared bathroom.

Yes.

Is it the only bathroom?

It is the bathroom for our bedroom.

Do you have children who are not fur children?

Because I know you have a lot of animals.

Yes.

We have non-fur.

We have two non-furred 15-year-old boys, twins.

Oh, okay.

Do they have their own bathroom?

Yes.

I bet that's a hellhole.

Betray.

Just so I know,

is there potentially, is there a half bath somewhere or

a third bathroom that could become the home to your Javma collection, Liz?

You know, it would be more like the guest powder room.

So I feel like that would be even

a worse lateral move.

Why?

Because you don't want to reveal to your guests that this is one of your things.

Oh, yes.

That's right.

So there is some shame associated with your pile of javmas.

Yes, to be fair, both professional shame and maybe like a little bit of a hygiene issue, if I'm honest.

Why professional shame?

Are you afraid that guests will come in and go, oh my gosh, she is not keeping up with her javmas?

That's right.

I'm not bringing my dog or cat to her anymore.

Do you have a, you have your own practice?

Are you working a practice or what?

I work in a practice.

I'm just going to tell everyone, Liz is the best veterinarian.

You don't, if you see some javmas around, you should be happy.

Don't be like judging her.

Like, oh, she's not reading her javmas.

She's got the subscription.

She's working on it.

So,

Simon, it says here that you are not opposed to piles of things in your house per se,

but that you favor what is, I think this is a quote from you.

piles with purpose.

What does a pile with purpose mean to you?

Well, just as

a pile of things that are used at some point.

So it doesn't,

we're not opposed to piles.

We say we're pile people.

Some things are just, it's easy if it's in a pile.

You know, you have easy access if you can sort of, if you know the,

I guess, geography of the pile.

And so I don't, piles in and of themselves that are, you know, rotated through are fine.

What are some other examples of the piles in your home?

In fact, we have some evidence, Jesse, if you'd like to take a look.

But I'll let Simon describe what we're seeing here.

These are exhibit B piles with purpose.

First example, bathroom.

Yes.

So this is our shared bathroom.

And that pile there, basically from the Tylenol on the right, all the way to the left is

Liz's pile.

And to the right is mine.

And so contained within that pile, I assume, is everything that she needs to.

I mean,

you're definitely pile people.

I mean, I don't know how to describe this other than a big pile of,

you know,

sundries, hygiene supplies, vitamins, pills, deodorants, et cetera.

When you say that on the left is Liz's pile of what, everything on Earth?

Yeah,

basically.

And the thing is, I should take credit, or not credit, but some blame because it is my job to sort of maintain the pile.

Sort of, you know, so I take things down, clear off the surfaces, and then reassemble it into, I guess, a more ordered pile that then over time.

Which version is this in your mind?

This is, this is at the very end.

This is just before it was ordered.

Okay, because this feels, I mean, this, look, we've discussed it many times on this podcast that the people have different sensitivity to clutter.

And I have a very low tolerance for clutter.

And it would seem that you have a very high tolerance.

And I say that respectfully.

But

may I ask, let's look at a couple of other purposeful piles here.

Jesse, are you seeing this bathroom now?

This bathroom is wild.

This is a size.

First of all, all right, this is a sizable bathroom.

Yeah.

These two are living like monarchs in this bathroom.

San Antonio, everything's bigger in Texas.

There's a gargantuan corner bathroom.

And they have probably,

I'm going to call it six feet of counter space in this bathroom.

Yeah.

Not counting the sinks, just six feet in between the sinks.

No, this is a corner, corner situation, double vanity.

There's a sink on either end of this corner L-shaped countertop, every centimeter of which is filled with a thing.

There are cabinets in this bathroom.

I want to be clear.

I can't emphasize enough that immediately underneath this layer of bathroom product is a set of cabinets.

Yeah, what happened to the cabinets there, Simon?

Did you accidentally fill them up with sand or something?

You can't fit anything in there.

No, they are full, but if, like, if you were to open up one of those cabinet doors, it would things would fall out.

That's for sure.

The drawers, though, they contain

you have more bathroom things than the things that are on this counter.

We do.

The best part of this is that what are you doing in this bathroom?

I mean, besides studying.

It is interesting because neither of us are, we're not actually, we're not high-maintenance people.

We don't take long to get ready or anything like that.

So it doesn't doesn't really, it doesn't make sense.

Now that we're talking about it more, I'm confused too.

One of the beauties of this photo, which

do you want us to share this with the world?

We are not ashamed.

Okay.

We're not ashamed who we are.

One of the beautiful things about this photo,

which you can see up on our Instagram page, et cetera, is that not only is this L-shaped counter covered in stuff that you use every day in the bathroom, normal stuff, but also it's up against an L-shaped mirror.

So the whole thing is doubled.

Yeah, this is like a Last Dragon Bruce Lee bathroom mess.

fighting against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in a house of mirrors.

Now, this is the Judge John Hodgman podcast, and you forgive me for being naturally judgmental.

So I will, but let me dial it back for a second to say that as we've discussed in the podcast many times, people have different tolerance levels for what you might call clutter.

And that's fine.

This is well beyond my tolerance level, but I don't live in your house.

My question is, do you have equal...

like when you when you both look at this bathroom situation are you both equally okay with it we are we we have a matched high tolerance for clutter okay well i yeah it would seem so because look at these other photos too boy oh boy are you pile people or what there's the closet there's a bunch of clothes piled on top of again what i can only presume is drawers full of other clothes

there's there's a reason for that and i i mean and that what's the reason for that Okay, so Simon does the laundry.

It's very sweet of him.

He's very nice.

He's not going to work long hours.

And so, and I don't like to add more work for him.

So if I've worn something for a few hours and then I think to myself, this is not dirty.

I'm going to wear this again.

Instead of putting it in the hamper to be washed, I put it on top of the dresser.

I think Judge Sean Hodgman listeners know that what you're supposed to do is take it off and put it in a shared bin by the front door so that other people can pull it out of there and put it on later.

That's a reference to our very controversial, apparently sock box episode that came out recently.

So when you take off clothes that you intend to wear again,

instead of putting them in the hamper, you say you put them aside so that you will wear them again.

By putting them aside, meaning you throw them from across the room

to land on top of this dresser, maybe.

It's hard for me to see where the dresser ends.

So, Simon, why are these piles piles with purpose?

Whereas Liz's pile is purposeless.

Okay, because we go through that fairly regularly, but there's also stuff on the bottom of there that might be as old as some of the magazines.

And then the bathroom, same thing.

It's stuff that is used and

it's routinely touched and used by you.

It has purpose in your life, whereas these magazines have no purpose in your life.

The bathroom pile and the clothes in the closet, those are hers.

But you understand the purpose of those piles, but the JAVMA,

the purpose eludes you.

That is correct.

And why is that so hard to understand?

It's professional research that your wife is doing on the toilet.

No, and I've seen her have to, you know, to solve a case and be, you know, nose deep on the computer finding the answers that she needs to find.

What she's not doing is going page by page through the stack of jaffmas to find it.

She looks it up.

Well, it's a good point, Liz, because you mentioned that so many jaffmas are coming in the house every other week.

I mean, Cooks Illustrated is on a quarterly basis at this point.

They can barely put one out.

JAVMA is pumping out thick magazines every other week, and they're colonizing other bathrooms.

Isn't this stuff online?

Yeah, so it's a little complicated.

If I have a specific case, I will research.

I'll look online and all sorts of journals.

are online and I can find that information.

So looking through JAVMA is more about finding information.

It's the information that you didn't know you didn't know.

Okay.

You know, coming across an article, like a study that you didn't know was out there,

you might use that information at a later date as opposed to researching a specific thing.

But you acknowledge that you're not keeping up with your subscription and your research, your important research, correct?

Yes, currently.

Let me, okay.

But it's been, I mean,

you still have 2020 issues in there.

What's your plan to get back?

I hate to say it to a veterinarian on the the horse

and get through these magazines and get up to speed and up to date?

That is a good question.

I will say, okay, so we

do have like continuing education requirements, and some of it can be self-study.

So

last year I went to a bunch of conferences, so I didn't need any self-study hours, but this year I do plan to do some self-study hours and it will consist of reading the JASMAs.

So, okay.

And what, so tell me what your, what your proposed schedule is.

Well, basically before the end of December, I have, I'm going to do three hours of self-study.

So I will, I'll probably go through about six of them.

So three hours so that you're going to knock off six

before the end of the year.

Yes.

And according as of this recording, that's

10 weeks from now.

If I'm doing the math correctly, check me, Simon.

December has four weeks.

November has four weeks more or less.

We have about two weeks left here in October.

So that's 10 weeks.

So that's, and it's every other week.

So that's five new issues.

Judge Hodgman, Simon is in graduate school for social work.

He's doing calculus and stuff.

Yeah, no, I know.

It's just anyone's got to be better at math than me at this point in my brain dysfunction.

But that's five.

So you're going to knock out six issues,

but get five more in the meantime.

So you will have essentially effectively eliminated one.

This is going to go on forever.

Does that sound acceptable?

Does this page sound acceptable to you, Simon?

No, it sounds undoable.

Is there another place where the magazines can be?

I mean, of course, we've got plenty of places to put magazines, but it's just going to be then they would just be there.

And then I think the argument would be that just you wouldn't have ready access to them.

Yeah, I didn't want them to be out of sight, out of mind.

So it's kind of like a guilt.

Out of sight, out of mind.

This is like a, you know, a visual reminder of what I'm not doing.

Do you really?

I mean, that can't be good for your digestion to feel guilty every time you approach the toilet.

How do you feel when you see those magazines, good or bad?

That's a good question.

You know, like I said,

I just have this kind of optimistic idea that one day I'll have time to read them.

And

so I'm.

I want to keep them around for that reason.

And sometimes I do have,

I'm busy, so I don't have a lot of free time, but one day I'll have free time.

Simon, do you believe her?

No.

She had shoulder surgery.

She didn't read a single one of them.

What else?

I was on a lot of drugs.

I did realize that that plan for reading them when I was recovering from shoulder surgery was not a good one.

What could be more fun

than reading about

dog poop while on medical grade pain relievers?

Sounds like a great afternoon to me.

What's so offensive to you about this pile so that I can understand what you want me to do here, Simon?

Is it that the pile is next to the toilet?

Is it that the pile

will never be addressed?

What do you feel when you walk into the bathroom and you see all those magazines next to the toilet?

I mean, if I'm honest, clearly

I have a willful blindness to things like this.

So I don't, it doesn't really bother me too much, but you know, we wanted to.

Oh, we're wasting our time here.

Then goodbye.

I can pray.

I can adjust your willful blindness,

brain black out all piles of magazines.

And it's, it's gone.

I mean, there is going to come a point when it is even.

See, and you say that we didn't have it, but the pile has been there.

I think we must have gotten rid of some of the pile at some point.

You're right.

Right?

So we have cycled through.

So this is, there's precedent already.

Did you get, did you get rid of magazines because like you finally read them and you've and you recycled them, or did you give up on some?

So some magazines disappeared at one point um

i think

i think that um yeah i think he thought i wouldn't notice and i didn't notice did you dispose of a bunch of javanas without permission simon yes or no i do not recall and then she can tell what you're talking about you do not recall

i have a terrible memory

i mean if if she didn't it was obviously me What would you have me rule then that the that all the magazines go away or only up to a certain point in time?

What are you looking for here?

What's the relief you're looking for, so to speak?

I think it would be fair to have a certain number of magazines there and just cycle through them.

What would that number be?

I don't know.

I think six months' worth is good.

So that would be 12 at two weeks.

And you have two weeks to read the one on the bottom before it gets taken away.

And what are you going to do?

Are you going to set a timer?

Are you going to keep track of this?

Absolutely.

What would this do for you?

Why do you even have any standing here?

Why would that be beneficial to you?

I have no standing.

It wouldn't be beneficial to me until they get to the point where they see they used to be on top of the toilet.

Then I moved them to the floor.

When did the magazines break your back, Simon?

When did they fall on you?

And when did you move them?

It was probably around a year or so ago.

Okay.

Wow.

So, all right.

And Liz, I hate to ask this, but at this point, when you consider your pile of javmas,

isn't it likely at this point that Simon has at least once peed all over them, given

their proximity to the toilet?

I do have some hygienic concerns.

That's fair.

Do you have to read them on the toilet, Liz?

I'll just be blunt.

Is it important to you that you be able to reach down or behind you at any given moment?

Do you have to, like, is that what you want to do?

You know, probably not.

It's more just a matter of where else to put them.

And that seemed the best place for them to be contained and not kind of obviously in the way.

You said, though, that you have a lot of places for magazines.

What would be an alternate place?

I mean, they would just vanish.

I mean, they would have to be like in the office.

There's an office?

There was an office this entire time?

Yeah, okay.

But it's his office.

What's in what piles of purpose are in his office?

Oh, yeah, actually, I forgot about those files when we talked about the ones earlier.

There are, well, that's more organized, but there's.

I'm not sure I believe you, but go on.

There are books.

I mean, old, you know, documents

related to the house and

taxes.

Let me ask you this.

Let's just say for the sake of argument.

You got one of those and I don't know what your living room looks like, but I'm presuming that every cabinet in your home is full of stuff.

So there's no room for these magazines, or else they'd be there, right?

Simon?

Yes.

What if you got

one of those ottomans that has storage inside?

You pop off the top.

It's like you put your feet up on top, and then you take your feet off, pop off the top, and it's just a storage cube, right?

Just hypothetically.

And you put all the current issues of JAVMA in there and pop the lid on.

Would that be okay with you, Liz?

Yes.

I mean, that would be a compromise.

Yes.

That would be a compromise, but it doesn't sound like you want to make a compromise.

So I will ask you again:

why do your magazines about dog poop need to be next to the toilet?

What do you get out of this?

Yeah, I think the idea is that, again, it's just like a reminder, you know, so it's just, I can see them.

So it reminds me, oh, yeah,

I need to read those.

What about declaring JASMA bankruptcy and throwing them all away and starting fresh?

How would that make you feel?

When I propose that,

what's your reaction?

Yeah, that is definitely.

So he wants to throw them away.

And

so I am willing to compromise in any other way, but I don't actually want to throw them away because you're not.

But Liz,

respectfully, Liz, you're not answering my question.

Okay.

When I propose throwing them all away and starting fresh, how does that make you feel?

It

makes me feel anxious about the idea of losing the opportunity to absorb that information.

I see.

And so you need to have them right there so you know that you'll see them every day.

Let me ask you this question without getting too personal.

Let's say your feet are tired, so you need a place to sit down for any reason.

You choose the toilet and you're doom scrolling about the state of the world, which is bad.

And you have this pile of homework next to you.

That's got to be a miserable morning for you, right?

How do you feel when you're just scrolling terrible information and you have unfinished work next to you?

And you know that even if you ran into the other bathroom, there's even more work there for you.

Is that a good feeling?

How would you describe it?

That's fair.

That's stressful.

Yeah.

Okay.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go

into my private office and peruse some old copies of LRE Queen Mystery Magazine.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Liz, how are you feeling about your chances in the case right now?

I'm worried.

You know, I feel like I don't have

a lot of

logical room to stand on.

So I'm making more of an emotional appeal.

Nothing stirs the heart like a pile of medical journals.

And my desire to be a better veterinarian.

Got it.

Simon, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling confident.

Why is that?

Well, I just don't think she has a leg to stand on.

There's no, no matter what, even if we put it in an Ottoman or put them somewhere else, they would just, she could never read them faster than they will be replaced.

And it will just continue to grow and grow and grow.

Liz, for the past 15 years,

everyone else in the world has been looking at their phones when they sit there.

Can you not put these inside your phone?

I mean, that's an interesting question.

Yes, I have access to them digitally.

That is very true.

But then you would have to make the choice to actually go to the AVMA website and look at the journal online instead of, you know, doom scrolling news articles.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Law.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Maximum Fun.

Judge Sean Hodgman, we're taking a break from the case and to prepare for our upcoming trip to New England.

New England, we're coming for you.

And it's a triple homecoming as I return to Brookline, my actual hometown, as well as two adopted hometowns of Western Massachusetts and my beloved and painful Maine.

And we're also, for the very first time, ever going to Vermont.

Yeah, in November, we're bringing justice to the Higher Ground Ballroom in Burlington, Vermont, as well as the State Theater in Portland, Maine, the Shea Theater in Turner's Falls, Massachusetts, and the Coolidge Corner Theater in Brookline, Mass.

Clacks on, clacks on, clacks on.

Sorry, Jesse, but Brookline is already sold out.

And Turner's Falls with special guest Monty Bamante is about to sell out too.

So go and get your tickets right now at maximumfun.org/slash events.

And by the way, if you did miss out on Brookline, may I suggest Portland, Maine is just a short drive away.

Why not make a weekend out of it?

It's off-season.

Hotel rooms are going to be relatively inexpensive.

You can check out Eventide Restaurant, go to a Green Hand bookshop.

They've got a great section on Edward Gorey.

Go to Flea for All, where you got that jacket that time, Jesse.

Yeah, I got a nice jacket.

It's a terrific city, and it's going to be a great show at the State Theater.

And we'll have Joel Mann in-house playing bass with the night and day trio, offering you you the finest in coastal Maine jazz.

Tickets available right now at maximumfund.org slash events.

We're also coming to the West Coast in January and February, so you can get your tickets to Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, and Los Angeles, where we will have a very special opening act.

Jordan Jesse go.

It's going to be a hoot and I dare say a holler.

Maximumfund.org slash events for tickets to all of our upcoming shows.

And if you have disputes in these cities, please send them in at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

If we pick your dispute to hear live on stage, guess what?

You can hang out with us and eat some of our green room crudité.

You absolutely can have all the cherry tomatoes because I hate them.

Listen, everybody, we've had so much fun on the road with our Judge John Hodgman Road Court, and it's a great way to introduce someone who's new to the show or has never heard it before.

So please go and get your tickets now at maximumfund.org slash events and submit your disputes at maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And before we leave this segment, I would like to mention that John Hodgman has a brand new Maximum Fun podcast called EPLuribus Motto.

That's right.

With our friend Janet Varney.

Now, this basically was a,

how did this happen?

This was like that the two of you had a shared a fever dream or something.

Janet Varney said, hey,

during a recent Max Fun drive, Janet Varney said, hey, if we hit a certain membership goal, would you like to do a podcast about all of the United States mottos with me?

And I said, I absolutely would.

But can we also do state birds and songs and state muffins?

All of the state trivia.

and other information that you might want to know.

You will learn it as we go state by state and Commonwealth by Commonwealth on ePluribus Motto available right now at maximumfund.org.

And the only reason that we did it, of course, is that we did meet that membership goal.

And we're so happy about that that we decided to go ahead and make a very long podcast.

I mean, 50 states,

well, let's say 46 states and four Commonwealths and some territories and districts as well.

It was a lot of fun.

Janet, if you don't know, is not only the host of the Great Maximum Fund podcast, the JV Club, and one of the co-founders and co-operators of San Francisco Sketchfest, as well as one of the stars of television's Year of the Worst.

She's also, this is most relevant to my seven-year-old, the voice of Korra in The Legend of Korra.

So if there's a thousand reasons that you should be paying attention to what Janet has to say, and that's all beside the fact that she is one of the funniest people I know.

So I am really excited about epluribus motto.

It launched with two launch episodes so that you can binge a little bit.

as we get the show started.

So search your podcast app for epluribus motto.

I think you're going to have a great time.

Yeah, we we recorded them in order of the adoption of the official motto.

So, it's like Connecticut is first, and then I think we go to Rhode Island.

Well, you'll find out.

Everything you need is over there at maximumfund.org, not least of which is maximumfund.org slash events for those tickets to the Judge John Hodgman shows in New England.

See you there.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So,

Simon, Judge Jen Hodgman says,

sit down because you have no standing.

Zero standing.

You have zero standing, right?

I mean, you have established

not only through

your words, but through your pictures, that you share an equal, high tolerance for clutter

that

extends far beyond

this spot next to the toilet.

You try to make a distinction between piles of purpose versus purposeless piles, but when you compare your double vanity to the pile of magazines next to the toilet,

to my eyes, same amount of clutter, not really distinct.

And indeed,

they serve a purpose, a real purpose,

to make Liz feel bad every morning

because she didn't do her homework and she's behind.

And yet, even though you have no standing, I cannot throw this case out of court and rule in Liz's favor automatically.

Because Liz, you are confronting a problem that I have great sympathy with.

One problem that I have had all my life

is letting homework pile up, procrastination, and feeling awful about it.

Feeling awful about it all the time.

Procrastination is one of the most insidious

bad habits to get into because it ruins your quality of life

far more when you're not doing the thing you're putting off than the small hassle of doing the thing that you're putting off, which is such an improvement of your quality of your emotional life.

There's that.

And then there's also addiction to phones, which is a real, a real issue that we all have.

And with regard to your defense, Simon, that we like to stay on top of things by looking at our phones.

Particularly now, I say don't.

Jesse and I share a good friend and David Reese.

David Reese is the co-creator and co-star of the show that we made for Hulu and FX called Dick Town, available now on Hulu, and potentially an unnamed secret project that seems to be coming into focus more on that later.

But David has a side project, a podcast called Election Profit Makers with his childhood friend, John Kimball.

And if you listen to that, and you should, because it's a lot of fun, unless you want to put election news aside for a while, which I don't blame you, but he's always hectoring John Kimball for remaining an active user of the website we used to call Twitter.

And there's one of the most explosive moments in podcasting history,

as far as I'm concerned, was when David said to John, why are you still there?

It is only causing you heartache.

It is only causing you pain.

It is not a force for good in the world.

It is terrible.

Why are you still using this application that we used to call Twitter?

And John admitted quietly

a hard truth.

He said, because I think I might make a difference.

You've never heard a childhood friend laugh harder at a childhood friend.

And even John had to laugh at himself, because of course, scrolling through

not just news, but at this point, misinformation, propaganda,

clickbait, rage bait, all of the stuff that

social media has arranged itself to connect to your brain and make it hard for you to put your phone down.

That is not making a difference.

Witnessing all of this stuff

does not make a difference.

And certainly posting your takes on this stuff

does not make a difference.

What makes a difference is action in the real world.

And if you want to make a difference in the real world, take action in the real world.

Find an organization that is dedicated to the things that you, and I'm not ordering you to do this.

I'm just saying.

It's what we call on the Judge John Hodgman, the help in the way you're asked to help principle rather than the way that you want to help or feel compelled to scroll through help.

You know what I mean?

Like

find an organization organization that is aligned with your principles, see what they want you to do in the real world, and do that.

If that's how you want to engage in this world, we need engagement in this world.

But what you're doing on your phone when not reading your veterinary magazines is not good for anyone, especially you.

When, by contrast, reading about dog poop in a magazine is going to help some dogs.

That's very valuable.

Think of Sherman.

Think of Sherman.

And it's critical.

I really feel you, as an old magaziner,

you said something that really resonated with me and I think it is true and something that we've lost to a degree, which is that your phones and your computers and your digitized information are great when you're doing a specific search.

for something that you already know you need to know about.

But browsing through a magazine, much like browsing through a bookstore or doing all the kinds of browsing that we used to do of curated collections of articles or information or whatever, that helps us discover and make connections that we didn't know we,

as you put it,

you learn about the things you didn't know you needed to know about or you didn't know that you didn't know about.

And something about paging through a physical magazine is conducive to that kind of intellectual discovery that

the screen can't replicate.

So, to me, the solution here is obvious, not just in terms of how to make Simon a little bit happier about

the bathroom arrangement, because Simon's going to forget we even spoke about this in five minutes, it turns out, but it will increase happiness for you.

And that is read the magazines.

Don't bring your phone into the bathroom.

Sit down for whatever reason you might sit down

and spend

that ritual every morning skimming through one magazine and then

recycling it.

Magazines offer a different kind of torment, right?

Because anyone who has a magazine subscription or ever has has had them pile up and you feel like, I'm never going to get back to this.

And I have a family member who is.

preoccupied, driven to distraction by the numbers of New Yorkers they haven't finally gotten around to reading.

And the only solution for that is to read them.

Read them.

You will do net good in the world.

And, you know, you say you need 30 minutes to process one magazine.

I suspect you can get that down to 15 or 20.

Like we're all just, you know, we're already skipping the bird and

herpetological sections.

Like give it a good, solid skim or read one article.

Get it done within one, shall we say, sitting, put it on the other side of the toilet.

Simon grabs it, throws it away.

Then you're going to be done.

We think they got 45 in there, right?

So in 45 days, maybe you take a weekend off, couple of weekends off, right?

So like in two months, you will have processed 45 of them

and you will be a smarter, even better than you are veterinarian.

You know, you don't need to become a better veterinarian.

You're great at it, but you'll be even better and you'll feel good.

And it'll also, I think, be good.

I mean, it'll be good, it'll be good for you, not to be gross about it, but it'll be good for your waste processing.

You know what I mean?

Like, your gut, your gut is very attuned to your emotions.

It's gonna, you're gonna have a better time on the toilet if you do your homework.

Man, let that be what I'm remembered by.

Stage advice.

Just every day, every day, 15, 20 minutes, process one magazine, get rid of it.

You will, in, as I say, in two months, you'll get rid of all the 45 that you got there.

You will have brought in eight and you're going to be ahead of the game, and you're going to feel so good, and you will be making a difference.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Liz, how do you feel?

I feel really good.

Actually, that is, I feel like that's going to give me the impetus to do what I wanted to do in the first place, which is to read the journals.

And maybe it'll get me through, let's just say the next month is going to be stressful for everybody.

And yeah, no, I think that's great advice.

And I think, you know, Simon's

Simon's beef was more on principle.

So the principle that I would never never read them.

So what was the point?

And I think this is good because then I feel like he'll be satisfied.

Simon, are you satisfied?

Yes.

And just to clarify, it wasn't principled.

It was evidence, the fact that you never read them.

Yes, so I'm feeling that.

Simon Liz, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We've got Swift Justice coming up right around the corner.

But first, our thanks to Redditor Baltinerdist, who named this week's episode.

You can join us at maximumfund.reddit.com, not only to submit some names for our next episode, but also to chat about this one.

It's a very pleasant, positive community there at maximumfund.reddit.com.

Hey, I'm a member of that community and I enjoy checking in and chopping it up with people about the cases in a fun and productive way.

It's fun.

Evidence and photos from the show are on our Instagram at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman, as well as on the page for this episode at maximumfun.org.

You can find us on TikTok and YouTube, where you can watch full episodes of Judge John Hodgman just by looking for Judge John Hodgman pod at Judge John Hodgman pod.

So make sure to smash those like and subscribe buttons and tell a friend.

If you got a friend who enjoys YouTube and isn't a podcast person, tell them they can watch Judge John Hodgman right there on the YT's.

You can also watch Jesse Thorne and I eat some pawpaws and Jesse eat Jesse Pet some capybaras.

The two very popular videos that we put up recently.

That's true.

Those pawpaws were pretty good.

Yeah, I like the spoiler alert, but I liked pawpaws.

You know, I give pawpaws five stars.

And speaking of five stars, I want to say thank you to SAS 235 over there on the Apple podcast application for the very kind review.

SAS 235 said, I don't miss a show.

It's one of my favorites.

Smart, fun, funny, and just the right level of nerddom.

My wife, who's a whole human being in her own right, even likes it.

Five stars, they gave us.

Judge Hodgman,

you know what just the right level of nerddom is?

No, what?

You're a nerd and I'm artsy.

That's right.

I am a nerd.

Jesse's artsy.

And thank you, SAS 235, for that five-star review.

Hey, if you're listening to us over there on Apple Podcasts, why don't you go and leave us a review right now?

Dare I ask for five stars?

Well, if that's the way you feel, yes, I do ask it.

Because not only do I love reading your feedback, but it really helps new listeners find the show.

And guess what?

You can now rate and review the show on Pocket Casts as well.

And/or leave a comment on Spotify or, as mentioned, our YouTube page, youtube.com slash at judgejohnhodgman pod.

If you go over there, you can watch me eat a main-style fluorescent red hot dog fresh and cold out of the bag five-star content yeah uncooked

straight out of that package straight out of the pack and not just take a bite you took a bite thought about it then wolfed down the rest of it it's called commitment

judge john hodgman was created by jesse thorne and john hodgman this episode was engineered by ernest ibara at chatterbox studio in san antonio texas our social media manager is natty lopez the podcast is edited by aj mckeon our video editor editor is Daniel Speer.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmert.

Now, Swift Justice.

Are you ready for this, John?

I am.

This one comes from our members-only mailbag, the Membo Mailbag.

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Okay, here we go.

Erica from Mount Kisco, New York.

Thank you for being a member, Erica, writes, My 12-year-old son, Ewan, believes that if you go into a food store, you have to buy something.

But I browse in stores all the time without buying.

Who's right?

Look, you can browse in stores all the time without buying.

Bookstores, clothing stores, knick-knack stores, gift shops.

But I'm going to say something.

If you're going into a food shop of some kind, that stuff's perishable.

get a water or something your son is more ethical than you are erica ewen's right just get a water stay hydrated help the business and i'd say even in a bookshop you can probably find something that you like there but i mean just get a little something to support the business that is putting a roof over your head for a minute but whatever the case erica i echo my friend and co-host jesse thorne thank you for being a maximum fun member If you're a member, you can send us a letter about anything.

We'll read it on the membo mailbag.

If you're not a member, you can become one right now by going to maximumfund.org slash join.

Otherwise, your point of contact for me, Judge John Hodgman, is always maximumfund.org slash jjho.

And while you have that page open, won't you send us a dispute?

Our live show is coming soon to Vermont, Maine, and Massachusetts.

And we're looking for your New England-style beefs.

Send them right in, maximumfund.org slash JJ H O.

And make sure to let us know you're within hailing distance of one of those live shows because we do need your cases to make those live shows sing.

And you know what?

No matter what, maximumfund.org/slash JJHO, no matter where you are or how big your beef is, send it to us.

That's maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And we'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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