Judicious Minds

October 16, 2024 1h 1m

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Karen brings the case against her husband, Ryan. Ryan has a large piece of art that he would love to display in the living room. But Karen says it "stinks" and belongs in the dumpster. Who's right? Who's wrong?

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Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Judicious Minds.

Karen brings the case against her husband, Ryan.

Ryan has a large piece of art that he loves.

He wants it in their living room.

But Karen says it should only be displayed in a dumpster because it's trash.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference my paintings belong in a gin mill not in a museum if this modern crap is art then just call my paintings beautiful don't call them art jesse thorne swear the litigants in can i ask what's going on with you john before i swear the litigants in yeah yes so oh this i'm a little so people who are watching on youtube can see this right we're in the same room today.

You're in Los Angeles.

That's right.

You appear to be dressed as a.

Well, here's the thing, Jesse.

Yeah.

I'm in Los Angeles.

I came into town for a lovely wedding.

Uh-huh.

And then I was like, well, let me stay over Monday and I can record in person with my friend Jesse Thorne.

This is a treat that we don't always get to enjoy.

Right.

Unless we're on the road with that Judge John Hodgman Road Court, maximfund.org slash events.

And I was like, oh, great.

And so we set it all up.

And then when I arrived in LA, I realized realized that I forgot my judicial robes at home.

Right.

Luckily, we're in the season of Scary.

So I was able to go to a Halloween store.

And I'm like, I need some judges' robes right away.

Right.

And they said, well, we don't have any.

We have two choices for you.

Death or Plague Doctor.

Now, death.

Death is the ultimate judge.

Right.

You know what I mean?

But it's a little grim.

Right.

And I got to tell you something, Jesse.

I've always wanted a Plague Doctor mask.

And it came with the robe for free.

Right.

So I'm a Plague Doctor.

You could write it off on your taxes.

Yeah.

I also forgot my gavel,

which I really amateur hour here at Judge John Hodgman on my side, not yours.

Yeah.

But as I was checking out the point of purchase area, the checkout, they had these pop-ups.

You know, these pop-ups.

Yeah.

These are these little

snaps that you might buy.

These are snappers.

A souvenir store in Chinatown.

That's better than a gavel, I guess.

I mean, this is going to be my gavel today.

There we go.

That's the sound of a gavel, but I guess

maybe I'll put on my glasses so I can do the show.

Yeah.

All right.

Why don't you swear them in while I just disrobe?

I honestly.

Well, not disrobe, but dismask.

Karen and Ryan, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the only decoration in his office is a big weird poster that Ken Plume gave him?

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

It's a very kitschy poster.

Kitchy poster.

Producer of We Got This.

Of a Persian knockoff of E.T.

Body, it's called.

Look it up.

B-A-A-D-I or B-A-D-I.

Anyway, Karen and Ryan, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

And one,

one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered the courtroom.

Karen, why don't you go first?

Sure.

Do you want to hear it again?

Yes, please.

All right.

My paintings belong in a gin mill, not in a museum.

If this modern crap is art, then just call my paintings beautiful.

Don't call them art.

Okay.

It's your turn now, Karen.

I spoke, now you do.

Sure.

Let's say

Andy Warhol.

An interview with

a magazine.

Famous art hater, Andy Warhol.

Andy Warhol.

Well, I mean, you know.

Who knows?

He said different stuff.

I mean, yeah.

Right?

I mean, controversial.

Controversial artist.

It took some time before he was fully accepted into the art world because he was just painting.

He was just sort of replicating popular culture, right?

The controversial.

And filming flies crawling on naked ladies.

That's right.

Ryan, what's your guess?

Oh, geez.

Daniel, when we're editing this video,

do a flip and then just put on a caption here five days later.

And then, Ryan.

I think that the quote may actually be from one of Elvis Presley's unreleased tracks.

One of Elvis Presley's unreleased tracks.

Was Elvis Presley a painter?

My paintings belong in a gin mill, is how it began.

I know he did karate.

He certainly, well, I mean, he was a master of karate.

Yeah, I mean, I think that his karate was his art.

It was his,

you know, it was a physical painting.

Yes.

You know, Jesse, I can't remember.

We just, we're just back now from our Midwestern leg, and it was either in Ann Arbor or Madison.

I don't think it was in St.

Paul.

It was either Ann Arbor or Madison, where there is a plaque outside of the site of a former gas station where Elvis Presley broke up a fight.

He was being driven by and he saw two guys starting to mix it up.

And Elvis Presley was like, this cannot stand.

And he got out and he did a bunch of karate poses, even.

Yeah.

And they were like, okay, we won't fight anymore.

And Elvis Presley was like, that's right, because I know karate.

And it's like, no, it's not because you're Elvis Presley and it's just weird.

Yeah, it would be weird to defy the anti-fighting orders of Elvis Presley.

Yeah.

Anyway, Karen and Ryan, you're both wrong.

The correct answer was Edward Liteg,

who was the pioneer of a certain style of painting that had difficulty being taken seriously, even though it was wildly successful in what we call

the mid of the last century.

He was a German national who moved to French Polynesia and died at the age of 49 in a motorcycle accident in 1953.

His works were highly collectible, and I don't want to get into details of them yet because it's going to come out in the case.

Highly collectible.

And what was the style of painting?

Well, let's just say that with all of his money, he bought himself a villa in French Polynesia and named it truly Villa Velour.

Villa Velour.

It'll all make sense once we hear the case.

Who seeks justice in my courtroom?

I do, Your Honor.

Karen, you have a dispute with your husband, Ryan, about a piece of art that he wants to hang in the home you share.

Is that correct?

That's right.

Thank you.

Could you please describe in as much detail as possible what this piece of art is?

And feel free to go into great detail.

It's a velvet Elvis and it stinks.

I guess that's all we need to know.

And

you sent in a photo of the velvet.

And what we're talking about here, a velvet Elvis, it is a painting of Elvis on black velvet, correct?

Yes.

And obviously, I think folks have put it together that Edward Lieteg

pioneered the art of painting on velvet and specifically started painting local scenes in French Polynesia for bars and hotels on black velvet.

And it became a huge phenomenon in the mid-century.

And then people started painting Elvis on black velvet.

And it was like two forms of kitsch that go great together.

It was the Reese's peanut butter cup of kitsch.

This is a famous combination here in Southern California as having been northern Mexican, having been the Tijuana style.

That's right.

Absolutely.

Go to Tijuana for your affordable dentistry, auto glass, and your velvet paintings.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

Can we take a look at it?

You sent, you obviously sent in a photo, correct?

Right, yes.

Let's take a look at that.

This, this is definitely Elvis painted on black velvet.

It is falling out of its frame.

I don't know who's responsible for that, but

I'm going to say it's a higher artistic quality than I expected.

Yeah,

it's a pretty

compelling rendering.

Yeah.

And obviously, you can check out this image on our show page at maximumfund.org and as well as our Instagram at

judgejohnhodgman on Instagram.

This is a later period Elvis.

This is a Las Vegas Elvis.

Here, let me ask Ryan, because he's the expert.

He owns this Velvet Elvis.

Ryan, are there depictions of young Elvis on Black Velvet?

Or it tends to be later period, it feels like to me.

Sort of sequin Elvis.

Yeah, you typically find them like if you look for them on eBay, if you see them out in the wild, which is kind of rare, I think, at this point.

But if you look them up, they are typically later, later era, you know, Velt

68 comeback special.

era Elvis.

Right.

Okay, that makes sense.

And when did you get this Velvet Elvis?

How did it come into your life?

So I got this.

I was in high school.

I want to say it was about 96 or 97, I think.

Oh, boy.

Young people.

So I've, so I've, I've had it since then.

Um, I, I, I, I grew up in a very small town

with a kind of, the kind of town where twice a year, the entire town will have like a, like, garage sales.

Like everybody just has garage sales one day set aside on a Saturday.

Um, and I had been hanging out with a friend friend of mine from high school all day.

And it was kind of getting later in the day, early evening.

And we went back to her place.

And her parents were breaking down their garage sale with things that hadn't sold.

And they had this painting.

And I saw this, this majestic painting.

with a price tag on it that said five dollars.

And I went to her mom and I'm like, I will give you $5 for this.

And her mom's response was, just take it.

Just get it out of here.

Whoa.

I had been to their place.

I had never seen it displayed before.

I don't remember if they had ever had it up before.

I think this was the first time I saw it, but I immediately, I was like, I must, I must have this.

So where are the places that has this cursed?

Because they obviously want to get rid of it because it was a curse.

So I took it home.

I hung it in my bedroom in high school.

Yeah.

I took it with me to college.

It hung in two different dorm rooms.

It hung in three.

Oh, yeah, no, it was, it was, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, it was a magic.

Potential romantic partners would just swoon the moment they saw it.

Well, the problem is they would see it and they would no longer be interested in me because they would, you know, come down.

So it was a bit of a curse.

Um, but then, yeah, every apartment, three different apartments in college I had it in.

Um, after college, I moved to Chicago, lived in the same apartment for 15 years in Chicago, and it hung there.

And it's so it's it's where, where, and, where in your apartment in Chicago did you display this treasure?

Yeah, my apartment in Chicago was in it was in kind of a little hallway between the living room and kitchen.

It's a transitional piece.

Yeah.

But yeah, the kind of thing that you would come into the apartment and you would immediately see it.

Like it was always sort of an area of prominence for obvious reasons because it is obviously quite a conversation piece.

Karen is shaking her head.

Let me ask you this question, Karen.

When I first asked you to describe this piece of art, you said something, something, and it stinks.

You mean that literally, right?

Yes, I do.

It smells bad.

Ryan is a smoker, and while he does not smoke inside our shared home, but he does smoke, and he smoked in his apartments where it hung for many years, and it smells how you would expect.

What do you smoke?

You smoke tobacco?

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, it looks and smells like the 70s.

Ryan, first of all, I got to get out of pop-pop here for a snap judgment, a pop-pop judgment.

I order you to stop smoking immediately.

Okay?

It's not good for you.

That's great.

Stop it.

Stop it already.

It's no good.

It's no good and it's not cool.

And also, it stunk up your Elvis.

So you're talking about at least a dozen years of smoke is in that black velvet and it smells bad, right?

15 years, yeah.

15 years.

All right.

And so when did it come down?

When you started dating Karen, you guys have been dating for 10 years,

living together for, married for two, living together for four.

That's what I understood from our conversation earlier.

Yeah.

So in 2020, when I moved in with her, moved into the place that she owned at the time.

Right.

And it was a

small place, you know, pretty small for two people.

And a lot of my stuff just, there wasn't room for it.

So it was among the many things that just went into a storage unit for four four years did you did you i mean first of all good for you for not imposing a velvet elvis into a home that you do not own um she had taken you in did you propose to hang it initially in that home yeah oh yeah and what did what happened and she said no and i said well okay this is you know i i'm you're letting me move in with you this is your home um this that's that's understandable but yeah i mean the plan was always for us to eventually move to a bigger place pop-up judgment you're a good guy oh well imagine that it went.

Thank you, Jesse.

Yeah.

I did not want to impose my

things, you know, where there wasn't going to be room for it anyway.

And like I said, I was already putting a lot of other stuff in storage.

So it sat in a storage unit for four years.

And we recently bought a bigger place, the two of us together now.

So now that this is our home, this is no longer just her place.

This is our place.

Congratulations.

Oh, thank you.

As I was unloading stuff out of of the storage unit, I said, oh, let's revisit this.

And

she said, let's let someone else revisit this.

And that's how we ended up here.

Well, Karen, you say that you want to put this in a dumpster.

And indeed, you sent in some evidence that says exhibit B caption why the Elvis is a, quote, good candidate for the dumpster.

Let me look at exhibit B here.

Okay, well, it's two photos.

One is the frame seems broken.

Is that what you're trying to highlight here, Karen?

Tell me about these photos.

Those look like the stretchers.

Yeah, the stretchers are broken in at least two places that

I could see.

What are the stretchers?

Everyone's talking about stretchers like they know.

What are you all framing experts?

That's what the velvet is mounted on.

the frame goes around the painting.

That's decorative.

But the painting is actually mounted on wooden stretches.

The velvet is stretched across an inner wooden frame.

That's how it gets taught.

Exactly.

Right, okay, gotcha.

So the stretchers are broken.

And the frame is broken, so it's kind of not in good shape.

So it's probably a good idea to have it restretched and have a new frame made.

You feel that Elvis has left the building, as it were.

It's come to the end of its useful life as a piece of art, right?

Yes.

And I feel like, you know, hearing the origin story that it might have been garbage for a very long time.

Might have been garbage the moment that this cursed thing came into Ryan's hands.

That's right.

Ryan, was the case of the garage sales like every year they would have the garage sale just to sell off this Elvis to someone else?

Like it just hit every garage in town?

Not that I know of, but I would not be surprised if they had had it on more than one garage sale.

Yeah.

I think it became garbage the moment it was deaccessioned from the collection of the Chicago Institute of Art.

I just happened to scroll down here to Exhibit C,

which is a chair that Ryan likes, a chair that Ryan likes.

And there is a cute dog in this photo, too, isn't there?

Who's this cutie?

His name is Q.

What do you want to say about this chair?

It looks a little dated, shall I say?

Like both old and dated in style.

How would you describe this chair, Karen?

Stinks?

It doesn't actually stink because it is, in fact, brand new.

Oh.

This This is something that Ryan purchased for our new home without telling me.

And it arrived one day, and

I don't like it.

I think it's pretty silly.

You maybe can't tell from the photograph, but it is like of a plush material.

I was going to say it looked a little velory, a little velvety, a little

furry.

It's a metal frame with basically, it looks like someone killed a stuffed animal and spread it over this metal frame.

Yeah.

And it's also got a mushy ottoman that goes with it.

Why are you sharing this evidence of this chair?

Because I want to demonstrate that I'm not I haven't refused any

other decor that Ryan has decided to display.

But you didn't have a choice.

He bought it without your knowledge and just put it there.

Fair enough, but we're not here to litigate about the chair because I've accepted it.

So your point is, I have accepted your ugly chair.

It's time to get rid of your stinky Elvis.

Basically, yes.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

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You love Ryan.

Of course.

You've been dating for 10 years.

So this Elvis has been in your life for a while.

What did it feel like when you first saw it?

I thought it was pretty stupid.

Yeah.

But it wasn't up to me.

You know, it was his and his apartment, so.

Well, you're right.

The decor of his apartment was not up to you, but your choice to hug and kiss him was up to you.

Yeah, to do it before Elvis.

Yeah.

I mean, but you could have looked at this thing and said, this is guy's not for me.

But you didn't, because

Ryan has other qualities.

Right.

He's more than just an Elvis haver.

What other qualities does Ryan have that you love?

Oh, he's really funny.

He's really smart.

He's very sweet.

He's a great guy.

Great taste in art.

Well.

I feel feel like if this was Reddit,

this painting being up on the wall of a prospective boyfriend, it would just be all the replies would just say red flag.

Red flags, red flags.

Red flags.

Flags, flags, flags, flags, flags, flags.

But you saw past it.

You saw beyond it.

I did, yes.

Yeah.

Ryan, how had other people reacted to this painting in the

15 years that you'd had it or decade that you had it before it went into storage?

It's the kind of thing that everybody reacts to.

Most people, pretty positively, most people think it's an amusing piece.

It's obviously very kitschy.

It's the kind of thing that when people see it,

people that know me see it, they say, Yeah,

that seems like something that you would have, if that makes any sense.

I'm wondering if your apartment

before you moved in with your partner was

like a B-52's music video set or Corey Doctorow's house.

Yeah.

Somewhere where this kind of kitsch would fit in with a bunch of, you know, atomic coffee tables shaped like amoebas.

Right.

I mean, I guess we're trying to figure out just how googie were you.

Yeah.

So in my old apartment, I cannot say that I had a very specific aesthetic.

It was, well, my old apartment, the living room, you know, where this was kind of over in a hallway, just past that.

It was a couple of movie posters.

I don't even remember what they, horror movie posters.

does that not take me by surprise

not a stunner it's uh yeah well let me guess evil dead 2 dead by dawn no um I think I had what did I have Friday the 13th part three I had Nightmare on Elm Street in 3d

with the knife coming forward

yeah exactly yeah um I had I had I had Nightmare on Elm Street part three one of the Halloween

I had the original Halloween season of the Witch I did not have that one no I just had the original my daughter was just telling me about how good Halloween 3 season of the witch is it's wild.

Have you ever watched Halloween 3 Season of the Witch, Ryan?

Oh, God, many times.

It's a masterpiece.

Obviously,

no Michael Myers in that one.

No, it's a different storyline.

They were trying to turn it into an anthology series, different.

And then it didn't work, did it?

No, yeah, nobody saw it.

And then for the fourth one, they just brought Michael Myers back.

Karen, let me ask you this question: Hearing me and Jesse and Ryan talk about Halloween 3 season of the witch, does it get sexier?

Three white guys talking about kitschy horror movies.

Is it very exciting?

I would like to take the Fifth Amendment.

I think that's fair.

Ryan, it says here that you also have a wall of Taylor Swift.

Yes.

So that the Taylor Swift wall is kind of, it's kind of two separate things.

I guess maybe three.

One is because at one point she had said, well, can't you just put Elvis up in your room?

And I said, well, there's no room because that's where Taylor Swift is going to go.

And I've put all that up now since then.

And by Taylor Swift, Swift, you're talking about your collection of Taylor Swift.

Well, let me take a look at the photo and we can all take a look together.

Yeah, sorry.

Yeah, I'm seeing.

Yeah, well, describe, tell me what you're seeing, Jesse.

What I'm seeing here is a display that features about eight Taylor Swift record albums, LPs, in frames, surrounding a Taylor Swift poster, sort of Leroy Nieman style Taylor Swift poster, speaking of anti-art artists.

And then

below that,

two

needlepoint wall hangings,

one of which says, all's fair in love and poetry, and one of which says, a lot going on at the moment.

Those are Taylor Swift Swift parables, right?

Aphorisms.

I presume the one that says, give me the chocolate and nobody gets hurt is at the dry cleaners.

Are those Taylor Swift Swift lyrics, Ryan, or what's going on there?

Yeah, those are, yeah.

Forgive me.

Do you love Taylor Swift or do you love Taylor Swift?

Is this sincere or ironic?

No, this is very sincere.

Yeah.

Karen, do you confirm that?

I do.

Okay.

Yeah,

the fact that we just bought a home is the only reason that I am not spending $1,500 to go see her on tour because I cannot afford it right now.

I would not spend that much money on anybody else that is around right now it's it's it is a genuine it is a genuine love for her it is also just sort of like i said the the other thing about this this display here is like i said it's just sort of um and it the way it relates to the elvis i think a little bit is is

The fact that just music is a very big part of my life.

I mean, I go to a lot of live music.

That's kind of one of my favorite things to do.

I mean, three quarters of my wardrobe is just shirts that I have bought at concerts, at shows.

So, like I said, it's the Elvis, the complication of it is that it's not just, I, you know, I do like how kitschy it is and kind of how silly and

fun it is, and how it's kind of, like I said, kind of a fun conversation piece.

Um, it is also, you know, I like Elvis, like he's absolutely, he's not my favorite, but um, but I like Elvis a lot.

I think he's a really important musician.

And, like, is it just music's always been kind of a really big part of my life, you know, my you don't just love Elvis, ironically.

You actually love Elvis.

Elvis isn't his favorite, though.

His favorite's Paul Enka.

Right.

Karen, does Ryan love Elvis or love Elvis?

Does he sincerely?

I mean, here's the thing, Karen, because I have to rely on you because your beloved is, I can, I'm looking at him here on the screen, and he's got kind of

longish hair anyway.

I mean, I can't quite tell how long your hair is, but you're wearing chunky glasses, kind of longish hair.

You're wearing a t-shirt with, I guess it's a hoodie over it, but it almost looks like a lime green cardigan.

And, you know, it's Halloween's coming up.

This guy looks like he's dressed as ghost of the 90s a little bit.

So I'm just trying to figure out.

We can't see what's on that t-shirt from this distance, but I presume it says Reservoir Dogs.

No, it's actually, it's Green Day.

So okay, fair enough.

All right.

But so Karen, you will affirm that when Ryan says that he loves something, he's not being 90s sarcastic loving of bad things, but he actually loves the good things

that are Taylor Swift and Elvis.

Because I agree with you, Taylor Swift and Elvis are genuinely good.

Yeah.

I don't think I've heard him listen to very much Elvis, but he has mentioned outside of the context of the, like when

an Elvis song comes on the radio, and I'll be like, yeah, I don't know.

And he'll go, no, what do you mean?

This song's great.

So I think.

Did he give you a long monologue about the history of the song and its importance and culture and no where Elvis was in his career at that time

usually no no no no no Ryan Karen owned the home where you first cohabitated

now you're married and you're living in a home together and do you co-own that home Yes.

You each have a financial stake in the home that is equal, right?

And as you're fusing your lives together and your belongings, is there anything of Karen's that belongs in the dumpster?

Not that I can think of, no.

I mean, and like she said before, you know,

her first home was always supposed to be kind of a starter home.

Like there isn't a lot.

We've actually, I know there's some more evidence that we'll get to later.

But

I have far more things to put on the walls than she does.

No, there isn't anything that belongs in the dumpster, but there also isn't a lot.

I would like to get some things that will.

You would like to contribute some decor to your home.

Yeah.

And do you feel like that you're locked out because he's got more Taylor Swift stuff to put up or what?

Not completely, but I do.

We have talked where he has mentioned things like, oh, I think I want to put some of my posters over here.

And then I think I want to put...

you know, some of this stuff over here.

And then I feel like, well, wait a minute.

I need, I've got some things in mind that I want to get that I don't have yet yeah but when but but when you have brought that up I've said oh okay cool like I haven't I have no objection

and I cannot think of anything that you would put up just knowing you

so you have an objective we have exhibit E here

which are some posters that are not hung one of them is a poster for

it says North Lakeshore Drive 1990 like a watercolor and then there's a picture of a dog wearing a bowler hat with a monocle.

May I presume that this dog wearing a bowler hat with a monocle is yours, Ryan?

No, that is Karen's.

Wow.

Holy cow.

He also has a pocket watch being worn as a pocket square.

And he's wearing one of those like military medals around his neck, like some sort of Viennese royalty.

Yeah, or a wampier.

Karen, tell me about this dog.

Oh, the head of his walking stick is a cat's head.

Tell me about this guy, Karen.

who is this dog and what does this piece of art mean in your life yeah uh i call it the mystery dog and

sure

and why wouldn't you

and it's actually uh it was a gift from my brother there was a there is a tabletop game that has uh a whole deck of uh cards that have paintings of really whimsical and fantastical things on them.

And, you know, the idea of the game is you put some cards down and you have to describe the card without really getting other people to guess the card you're talking about.

And I, this was always my favorite card.

And,

you know, I, I talked about it for years and how much I liked it.

And everybody knew that that was the one I picked whenever I played it.

Oh.

And so last year for Christmas, my brother surprised me with an enormous print of the mystery dog.

Wait, forgive me.

I have to go back.

So how old were were you when you were playing this card game?

And what is the name of the card game?

I don't mind buzz marketing it.

Sure.

I don't, it's called Dixit, I think.

D-I-X-I-T.

Right.

Not Dick Town on Hulu, co-created by David Reese and John Hodgman.

Dixit.

Okay.

I misheard for a second.

Got it.

Yeah, and no, this is just in the last, you know, three to five years.

You've been playing Dixit, so this is not

a teenage

obsession like teenage obsession.

How large is this dog wearing formal clothes?

Yeah, how big is your mystery dog?

I think it's 24 by 36.

All right.

Pretty sizable.

How big is Velvet Elvis?

Bigger than that.

A little bit bigger than that, not much.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, it's real big.

Ryan,

what do you think about this mystery dog?

I think he's great.

When her brother got her this,

I had seen the picture before because when she was playing this board game with her brother and with her friends,

you know, several years before, she had sent me a picture of it.

And I was like, oh my God, that's great.

Look at this dog.

Just look at this dog.

Look at it.

This is an amazing picture.

When her brother gave it to her, I was not upset about it at all.

I was like, that's great.

We have to hang that.

This is a piece of art that enhanced your love for Karen rather than a piece of art that you

that you love Karen in spite of.

Oh, no, yeah.

No, I very much like this thing.

John, you're more of a cat guy, but I think I could help explain.

So dogs rarely wear any clothes at all.

Oh.

Much less formal garb.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

They're rarely invited to state dinners.

I always imagined that most bulldogs wore bowler hats and smoked cigars.

I understand why you would think that.

And that they wore tight sweaters with turtlenecks and they walked down the street going, yeah, I'm going to go beat up a cat.

Yeah.

You're thinking of the ones that you've seen depicted in velvet paintings.

Oh, okay.

My mistaking.

Have you considered having the velvet cleaned, Ryan?

I mean, it stinks.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, the fact that the frame is, you know, it's out of the frame, the stretchers are broken.

It's, it's, yeah, I mean, it's been in, it was in my apartment for 15 years and it's been in storage for four years now.

Yeah.

No, if we were going to,

if this does go in my favor, I would definitely want to have it cleaned, have it repaired.

And where is your proposal for hanging it in the apartment?

Well, I think it should go somewhere in the living room.

We've got a much bigger living room space now than we did at her old place.

I mean, I honestly think I'm looking at Velvet Elvis and I'm looking at the mystery dog here, and I'm thinking, how well do these two things complement each other?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

You think I haven't thought about that already?

Fair point.

We could live together in some sort of nightmare room.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I haven't been in Chicago at some sizable apartments.

Do you have a nightmare room, Karen, in your condo?

No, not exactly.

Not yet.

And you're saying that there's no room in the Taylor Swift in your office on the Taylor Swift wall for Elvis?

There isn't.

No.

Like physical room or emotional room?

It's four feet long.

Yeah, physically, there is not the space for it.

Just with the layout of the room and where the window is and the closets,

the Taylor Swift wall would have been the only wall that had the space, and she already had to go there.

If Taylor Swift asked you to get rid of Velvet Elvis, what would you say?

That would make me look at her a little differently, honestly.

You would tell Taylor Swift no.

Yeah.

Karen, is he telling the truth or is he being the ghost of the 90s?

Irony.

I don't know.

I think he might be.

He would give it some serious thought, at least.

I think I would say, well, look, Taylor, let's at at least talk about this.

Taylor Swift lives in a world far beyond irony.

I know.

It's a very different.

She's dating a football player.

Yeah, it's a very different vibe.

Ryan, you've lived without Velvet Elvis for four years.

Correct.

Velvet Elvis was in storage.

Velvis.

Velvis, if you will.

Thank you.

And we will.

Tell Karen how you felt for those four years when Velvis wasn't in your life.

I mean, tell me too.

But tell Karen.

I mean, it definitely felt like something was missing, you know.

There was this thing that had been with me my, you know, like I said, my entire adult life.

It was, it was, like I said, it's, it's a piece that I really like, that I really was, was.

Well, you've made these arguments already, Ryan.

I understand that.

I want you to focus on that emotion.

Picture Velvis in the storage container in the dark.

It makes me a little sad to think about him sitting there alone

in the dark, in isolation, you know, I mean, I mean, I tried to get out to the storage unit as often as I could to check on things.

We had things to get there.

We kept Christmas decorations there.

And, you know, every time I would see him, I'd think, you know, you're coming home soon, buddy, you know?

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

How does it make you feel to picture Karen, your wife, gazing through her mind's eye at Velvet Elvis in a storage unit saying, we're never, ever, ever getting back together?

it it it's hurtful has your attitude towards velvis ever changed karen no

let me ask you picture velvet elvis

in the dark in the dumpster

with like a can of crushed tomatoes splattered on him maybe the bones of a fish maybe the bones of a fish a banana peel all the classic trash yeah exactly

and and also i want you to picture mystery dog in his bowler hat and with his monocle looking in the dumpster going

i win

i see you laughing and smiling how does that make you feel another victory for the ruling class

i mean i wouldn't delight in it being

destroyed.

I just don't want to look at it all the time.

Or smell it.

Or smell it, importantly.

Would you accept it in

Ryan's office, knowing that it's there?

Yes.

You would accept it.

It's pretty, it's pretty good compromise being proposed there, Ryan.

I have to say, why?

I mean, why can't you find room in your office?

I'm only seeing one wall of Taylor Swift memorabilia.

I would imagine that if it's a full room, unless it's what you call a nightmare closet or what do you call it, a demon room.

Yeah.

Anyway, there are probably other walls.

Unfortunately, like I said, just the layout of the room where the closet is, where the windows are, there are not.

I will say, though.

Does it have a ceiling?

Can you put them on the ceiling?

It does have a ceiling.

I suppose I could put them on the ceiling.

That's

yeah, see, this is going to be the reactionary.

Lionel Ritchie's song, Oh, What a Feeling, Velvis on the Ceiling.

Let me ask you: what's the thing you dislike about Velvis the most?

Is it?

And it's a three-part question.

Option one, it stinks.

Option two,

it literally stinks.

Option three, it symbolizes Ryan's inability to grow up and put childish things behind him and move on with his dual life together in a home that you share.

I will remind you, you're under fake hose.

I know.

I have to genuinely say, number two, it literally stinks because it literally stinks.

Really?

That's the thing that most annoys you about Velvis.

I have not put very many childish things behind me either.

What is is your Velvet Elvis?

What is your Velvet Elvis?

Text it to Jennifer Marmor.

Ryan, you give it some thought.

I'm going to go into my chambers.

I'm going to consider my verdict.

I'll be back in a moment for the answer and my decision.

Here's some newlywed gay music.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Wow.

Ryan just turns a card around and it says in the butt.

Ryan, how are you feeling about your chances in this case?

I feel

good about my chances of not having to throw it away.

Karen, how are you feeling about your chances?

Given that we're discussing techniques for fixing up Velvis,

not feeling too good.

Okay.

Well, have you decided, have you sent something to our producer, Jennifer?

I have, yes.

Okay, well, we'll see what Judge Hotchman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

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Judge Hodgman, we are taking a quick break from the case.

Low Low ticket alert.

Low ticket alert.

Do you hear that, Jesse?

I did.

I could tell that you were operating a radio by the fact that you put a finger to your ear.

I'm getting a low-ticket alert for our Judge John Hodgman Road Court tour in Turner's Falls, Massachusetts.

That's western Massachusetts where I spent a lot of my time growing up.

You may have read about it in Vacationland.

And if you want to see me there and you want to see Monty Belmonte and you want to see Jesse and Jennifer and everybody,

you better get your tickets now because it's a low-ticket alert.

It's about to sell out.

You already missed out on Brookline, Massachusetts, everybody.

Sold out.

But we do have shows coming up as well in Portland, Maine, and Burlington, Vermont, and where else, Jesse?

Well, in January and early February, we are headed to Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, and of course, Los Angeles alongside Jordan Jesse Go, which is a show I've heard is pretty good.

That'll be the last show of this tour.

Exactly.

All of that information is online at maximumfund.org slash events.

We have been having such an awesome time on the road.

I had such a nice time in Madison, Wisconsin.

Yeah.

Beautiful day, 78 degrees outside.

Gorgeous.

I went down to the lake.

I was in the skies.

Went down to the lake, FaceTimed with my family.

Yeah.

Took a little bicycle ride, went to some nice vintage shops, bought myself a vintage Chris Mullen t-shirt.

Wow, amazing.

It was just a, it was the, we had the nicest time.

And then, of course, in Minnesota, we, I got to pet Cappy Barris.

You know, you know where I had a nice time, Jesse, on tour?

On stage.

Yeah.

Presenting comedy, song, justice, and companionship, and friendship with you and to all of the audience members in all of the wonderful places.

Every show is different.

Every show is a surprise, even to me.

And I couldn't be more excited to get back out there and hit Burlington, Massachusetts, my home Commonwealth, Maine, my adopted state.

And then in January, all the other places, the West Coast, Vancouver, Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, and soon to be announced, San Francisco Scratch Fest.

Giving you a heads up.

Watch this space because tickets will go and they are already disappearing at maximumfund.org slash events.

So please get on over there.

Do we need disputes?

Yeah, we need disputes for all of those places and, of course, everywhere.

But if you are specifically in those northeastern places, which is to say Burlington, Vermont, Portland, Maine, Turner's Falls, Massachusetts, and Brookline, Massachusetts, or environs thereof,

please go to maximumfun.org slash JJHO, submit your cases, and let us know in that submission that you are near one of those places.

We always need disputes.

Often, we need disputes right up to showtime.

Yeah.

Like, we'll be locking them in a few days, a few days in.

We'd love to lock them in early.

So, submit them now at maximumfun.org slash JJHO.

It's a really nice time being on the show.

You can come back and hang out backstage.

Again, full access to our crudites.

Yeah.

And you hang out with Jennifer Marmer.

She shows you how to do it.

You don't have to be worried about it.

It's really fun and easy.

Yeah, we all have a good time together.

We have a great time on stage.

And no cases too small.

So go to maximumfun.org/slash JJHO to submit those and make sure to get your tickets to all of those places.

Sincerely, if you like cherry tomatoes, you can have all of my backstage cherry tomatoes because I hate them.

And I want to drop a plug this week.

We've been laying off plugs other than for our tour because we've been on tour.

Right, we've been on tour.

There is an interview right now in the feed of the Bullseye podcast, Bullseye with Jesse Thornton.

Yeah.

Andre 3000 of Outcast.

Incredible conversation.

Of which I'm really proud.

He's one of those people that was at the top of the list for literal decades now.

And he couldn't have been lovelier or more fascinating.

Talking about making flutes and

when you're too old to rap and all kinds of and what kind of art you should make as you get older and how you should appreciate art, new art as you get older, that were profoundly moving to me.

And

he's just such a charming, fascinating guy.

And we also talked about outfits.

So if anybody's worried, we didn't talk about outfits.

Don't worry.

We talked about outfits.

If you want to hear Jesse Thorne's dream come true as he talks to Andre 3000 of Outcast, go to Bullseye right away.

And listen to all of the incredible conversations that you've had.

I mean, I've said it before and I'll say it again.

I have been introduced to more artists, creators, musicians, comedians who have thoroughly enriched my life.

I've heard them first talking to you on Bullseye.

I'll tell you this.

We have an interview with the rapper Mavi,

M-A-V-I, wonderful, brilliant young rapper

that might be better than the Andre 3000 one.

It's either just out or just about to come out on the Bullseye feed.

Wow.

He is one of the most eloquent and fascinating people who has ever been on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, Mavi.

Just a really incredible guy.

I hope that sometime he will come join us on Judge John Hodgman.

That would be lovely.

Because of what a brilliant and interesting man he is.

But I would recommend go search out Bullseye with Jesse Thorne.

If you're not an Andre 3000 person, find somebody that you love and hit that subscribe button.

Download that episode.

See what you think.

You will.

Very proud.

You'll find someone you love.

Hey, Jesse, how old is Too Old to rap, according to Andre 3000?

He has mixed feelings about it.

I'm 53.

Am I just under the wire?

Great.

My name's Judge John, and I'm here to say: check out an episode of Bullseye every day.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Dog I ride.

Monocle and and a hat.

Dog I ride

walking stick with a cat.

He's a mystery dog,

and I'm in love with that.

That's the song Mystery Dog by Elvis Presley.

I just assumed it was Velvet Elvis by Weirdo Yankee.

All right, we're back from the break.

Before I go into my verdict, we have to finish the game show portion.

Ryan, I asked you

what was Karen's equivalent of Velvet Elvis.

Do you have an answer?

I do.

I want the answer.

And Ryan,

it has to be one thing.

Are you ready to reveal it?

Yes.

What is it?

I think it is her collection of

mini ears from Disney World.

Mini Mouse Ears from Disney World is on the board.

Karen, hang on.

Jennifer Marmor.

Well, she's not on mic, right?

I can be.

Okay.

Jennifer Marmor, Karen sent you her

Velvet Elvis.

Yeah.

What did she write?

She wrote, World of Warcraft, Wrath of the Lich King signed poster.

Boom, boom, boom.

Wow.

You got the Lich King's autograph?

The man himself.

You meant the Lich King.

Unfortunately, your answers did not match up.

You did not get the ceramic leopard or the trip to French Polynesia

to visit the manor, Villa Velour, of the creator of Velvet Paintings.

But I do have instead some parting gifts for you, which are judgments and orders.

All right.

Here's the thing.

I have become convinced in talking to both of you.

that despite your 90s attire, you do have sincere preferences and

affection for each other, obviously, and also for certain things in your life.

And what I've become convinced of is that Ryan's affection and connection to Velvet Elvis

is as sincere and heartfelt as Karen's aversion to it is.

And Karen did not take option three.

which I extended to her, which I kind of thought that, I mean,

I was, this is what we call forwarding the crux,

which is that she thinks that the big problem with Velvis is that it literally stinks as opposed to it symbolizes Ryan's inability to leave childhood behind and in fact and start to fuse his life in a new way and a new home with you, which, I mean, you know, that's kind of what I thought was going on here.

But you didn't choose that.

If you had chosen that, my verdict might have been different.

I couldn't lie.

I couldn't lie to you.

I appreciate it.

And now, and, you know, now that I've gotten the chance to know both of you a little bit more, and I know about the weird video games that you both like, but I mean to say, like, I believe that there is that your aesthetics are more aligned than not, shall we say.

And yet, that there is this outlier, there is this Velvis.

Was I thinking that Velvis and Mystery Dog should sit side by side in a place of prominence to represent

the synthesis of your relationship as it has grown?

Yes, I did consider that very seriously.

And I know that that would make Ryan very happy, but I am not convinced of two things.

One, that it would make Karen happy at all.

And B, that that thing isn't going to smell.

And the smell of it is truly the most compelling element of this case.

I doubt very much after 12 to 15 years of smoking in front of this velvet that it's ever going to smell okay.

I don't think there's enough Febreze in the world to get to a point where Karen's not going to be able to smell it.

And that is because, if I may, Ryan,

I'll tell you a little story.

There is another guy who sort of lived an ironic life in the 90s.

Another guy who dabbled in kitsch.

And another guy who smoked cigarettes in the 90s because he thought it was cool and that somehow he was invincible.

And that guy was your judge, John Hodgman.

And I'll tell you what,

I'm going to let you keep Velvet Elvis in your life on the condition that you freaking give up smoking because that's kids' stuff that has got to go away at your age.

Sorry.

I loved smoking cigarettes.

It definitely was cool, but it is the worst.

It is a bad, bad thing.

And that is the one childish thing I'm going to ask you to set aside as you move forward into adulthood.

And as far as Velvet Elvis is concerned, if you do that and you invest in repair of the stretcher, not to make Karen happy, but to respect Elvis.

Respond Elvis.

What's that?

Respelvis.

And you get it cleaned so that maybe, maybe it'll smell fine.

If at some point you are able to get it cleaned to the point where Karen's like, it doesn't smell that bad, maybe, maybe he can be next to mystery dog

in the den or the living room.

That's fine.

But if Karen still smells that smoke, it's got to be in your office.

Taylor and Elvis must find peace together.

If it's not Taylor, something's got to come down in order to put Velvis in there.

As far as the rest of your...

As far as the rest of your decor, my recommendation is measure the wall space, get the the square footage, divide it evenly.

Each person gets half of that wall space to do whatever they like.

But Velvea Delvis has to be in your special place until such time

as Karen decides it doesn't stink anymore.

And maybe, maybe on her, it's her choice, but maybe she can.

You know, Jesse, in some cultures when judges pronounce sentence, particularly when it's a harsh one, they cover their heads and they put like sunglasses on or they cover their eyes.

And so, before I pronounce sentence, I'm going to put my Plague Doctor hat back on and obviously cover my eyes.

People can see this on the YouTube that I'm not making it up.

You can also probably,

my audio is now muffled because I'm talking through a

Plague Doctor mask.

But

here's my sentence.

I order that Velvet Elvis be restored and

taken care of and given a place of prominence somewhere within

Ryan's office where it belongs.

This is the sound of a gavel.

You get up into a girl's face, you know, very close,

and you say,

yeah!

And it blows her hair straight backwards, you know.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as the plague doctor exits the courtroom.

Where was I?

I just came.

I feel like I've been dreaming.

Where am I?

In Los Angeles?

How did I get here?

Karen, how are you feeling?

Pretty good.

I think that's good and fair.

And I'm excited for Ryan to stop smoking most of all.

Ryan, are you ready for this?

I mean, I've been ready to quit smoking.

I mean, I've wanted to for years.

We actually for.

Talked about it recently.

Yeah, talked about it very recently.

About like, look, it is time for me to put a serious.

concerted effort into this.

And yeah, I mean, it's, it's,

it's costing me a lot of money.

I am not getting any younger.

Like, yeah, no, it's, it's something I should have, in a world where I can't go back and say I should have never started, it's definitely something that I, like I said, have thought about a lot recently that I need to put a real serious effort into.

Well, Ryan, you'll be glad to know.

I got a dry cleaner recommendation that's going to clean Elvis right up.

Rave Fabricair.

All right.

Unbelievable.

They do un-breathtaking work at Rave Fabricair.

Karen Ryan, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

In just a second, we'll have swift justice.

But first, thanks to Redator Mishnack.

Thank you, Mishnack.

For naming this week's episode Judicious Minds.

We can go on together

with judicious minds.

Judicious minds.

You know what?

I like that song.

It's a great song.

You know what?

I like Elvis.

Wow.

There's some Elvis that I like.

Oh, boy.

Wow.

I mean,

I'm here with Ryan on the faintest of praise.

No, there is Elvis that I like.

For example, I do like that song, Suspicious Minds.

Yeah, it's a good one.

Mystery Train is good too.

If you want to watch this episode, you can do so on YouTube.

Just search for Judge John Hodger and smash those like and subscribe buttons.

Smash, smash, smash.

And I dare say, smash the share button.

Smash that share button.

Send it to somebody.

Judicious Minds

Listen and follow along

Transcript

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