Knee High Crimes and Misdemeanors

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, knee-high crimes and misdemeanors, Liana brings the case against her boyfriend, Charlie.

Charlie recently moved in with Liana and her three daughters.

The adjustment into the household has gone well, except for one thing: Charlie can't stand Liana's system for sock storage.

Liana says she and her daughters have been storing their socks just fine until Charlie came along.

She wants Charlie to leave her socks alone.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

The body looks like a skeleton wrapped tightly in hairless skin, skin the brown of a roasted turkey.

It gleams with a glaze of ice that is left undefrosted to protect it.

Black lines on its back and ankles appear to be tattoos.

Its mouth is frozen in an expression that displays a few worn, chipped teeth.

This mouth, which is roughly 5,300 years old, is perhaps the most spectacular archaeological piehole of the late 20th century.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Liana and Charlie, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling?

Despite the fact that we're on the Judge John Hodgman road court tour, he is wearing probably gross cotton socks instead of cool merino wool socks like me and our engineer, Matthew Barnhart.

I do.

I do.

So they're probably super stinky.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

How dare you?

Probably.

I haven't sniffed them.

My,

well, you know, maybe we need to make that part of our pre-show ritual.

You will eventually apologize to me.

A sniffing circle?

That's exactly right.

But look, I wear clean socks every day, but you're absolutely right.

The woolen socks, you don't have to change them every day and probably are more efficient for touring for that reason.

We're here to talk about socks.

We're here to talk to Charlie and Liana.

They're not here to sniff our socks.

They're here to answer a simple question.

Charlie and Liani may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

In one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I reference as I entered the courtroom?

Liana, why don't you go first?

I cannot think of an old, old pie hole reference.

It's not, I added the word pie hole.

It was a good ad.

Yeah, but the rest of it was quoted directly.

I'm going to give you both a hint here from a 2003 article in Smithsonian Magazine,

if that helps.

I'm going to go with it is an archaeological

article by an archaeologist.

Oh, would it be in Smithsonian Magazine?

Did I give the game away?

From the Smithsonian Magazine.

The article was in a 2003 edition.

I love the way you play, Liana, but I'm going to say this.

One of you's got to name the thing that this article is about

or else we got to hear this case.

All right, I'm going with woolly mammoth.

Woolly mammoth, woolly mammoth.

We were talking about wool earlier, so I see there's something there.

Woollen socks, woolly mammoth.

All right, Charlie, it's your turn to guess.

You have 5,300 years to think about this now.

I think it's an article about

a bog man.

It is not an article about a bog man.

All guesses are wrong, though.

Neither of you were particularly that wrong.

It's an article about an Alpsman, not a bogman.

The recovered body of the so-called Utsi Iceman

found in the Tyrolean Alps.

Classic Iceman.

Classic Iceman.

I've heard of him.

Yeah, about 5,300 years ago, it is speculated that he got into a little bit of a scrape, a little bit of a tussle.

He had

a, what we call an arrow tip launched in one of his shoulders blades,

was running away, went hiding in the Tyrolean Alps.

Fell asleep and froze to death.

Poor guy.

Or something bad happened to him.

Got into an avalanche.

Anyway, perfectly preserved as these things go, so long as you don't mind having skin the color of a roasted turkey until he was discovered by a couple of hikers in 1991.

Now, why am I talking about this Ootsie Iceman?

Well, because I, thinking about socks, I went back to revisit one of my favorite things I've ever found.

And even though I've been to Toronto many times, it's so magical I refuse to see it in person.

Much like the Museum of Jurassic Technology, I prefer it as a thing of the imagination than a thing of reality.

I can't help but feel I will be underwhelmed or disappointed on some level should I visit that magical Museum of Jurassic Technology in Los Angeles, or if I should visit the Bata Shoe Museum in Toronto, which has been a museum of shoes for decades now, founded by the daughter-in-law of the founder of the Bata Shoe Empire.

And I wondered to myself, the Bata Shoe Museum have an exhibit on socks.

Oh, yes, they do.

The exhibit, in fact, is called Socks, Socks, and More More Socks.

Where they have on exhibit not only a reconstruction of the Utze Eisman's shoe,

which was found by

archaeological reconstructors to be quite comfortable to wear.

Why was it comfortable?

Because it was stuffed full of grass, considered to be the first example of a historic sock.

Let's go to the case.

Who brings this case before me?

Who seeks justice here?

That would be me.

Your boyfriend Charlie doesn't like the way you store socks what's the cur what's the what's the system in your house i have all of our socks uh excluding charlie's because he was before all this and he has his own sock situation he's on a sock he's on a sock boycott of your system yeah oh somewhat um but me and the kids uh all the socks are in a box a communal box the sock box sock box uh next to the shoes in the living room And then when you need a socks, you just grab two random socks because we all wear the same socks and nobody wears matching socks.

Wait, so you're just saying it's-WAMBAC!

I'm sorry, I will hold for Jesse Thorne's reaction.

I did not think this was a weird system.

Two random socks?

Random.

Yeah, well, they're all, I mean, most of them are fairly alike, but these are, I mean, most, it started with the three kids.

And so they sometimes would get like random character socks and whatever.

And a big, I don't know, fashion thing for the kids in elementary school.

And kind of not so much now that they're in high school, but in elementary school, they wore random mismatch socks on purpose.

You'd wear mismatch socks.

So, why bother?

And so, they all go in a box and they just grab random socks.

So, let me understand.

You have three daughters who are now in high school, right?

Well, one's in college and two are in high school.

Yes.

Okay, great.

Great.

They are adults are nearing adulthood.

Yeah.

Congratulations.

Well done.

Thank you.

You've got a box full of communal socks

because you all more or less wear similar socks.

Not that, I mean, socks are sized, but I mean, among the four of you pre-Charlie, you all wore similar socks, right?

Yeah.

Same socks?

Yeah, same socks.

So you just put a bunch of clean socks in there.

It doesn't matter whether they match or not.

Doesn't matter, like, what if they're ankle socks?

And what if one's an ankle sock and one's a tube sock?

No big deal.

You're wearing pants.

It's only if you're wearing, I mean, why would you wear socks in the summer anyways?

May I ask you a question?

Have you worn an ankle sock on one foot and a tube sock on the other foot ever in your life for real?

Yeah, Yeah, but I very rarely wear socks.

It has to be in the single digits for me to wear socks.

Jesse,

I noticed you're making lip noises in the sound of a slow raspberry.

Not a raspberry of disgust, but a raspberry of maybe exasperation or I don't even know what to say.

Tell me what's going through your mind.

I think that was the sound of my entire conception of how the world works.

Charlie, it sounds like you have an advocate in the person of Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Tell me why what Liana is doing is all wrong.

All right.

So she's, yeah,

the yellow box full of socks.

And like, we're talking full of socks.

It was fun to say those two words together, right?

It was, yeah, that was good.

So, you know, a mound of socks.

They're spilling over into, because, you know, you come in the front door, there's a shoe rack and then the sock box.

And so.

This is in Philadelphia, right?

Well, we live in Doylstown.

Oh, so north of the city.

Because a Philadelphia sock box is another thing.

We can't talk about it on the podcast.

No, no, no.

Yeah, we'd never.

So, yeah.

And also with four, now five people, there's a lot of shoes.

So it's kind of like just a,

it's a plateau of socks and shoes and they're getting mixed up.

And she didn't mention that

they put on their socks, they go out the door.

They come home.

They take off their socks immediately upon entering the house.

They will, they're not sock people.

They take off their socks, and where do they put them?

In the sock box.

They take off their dirty socks and put them in the sock box.

They put them right in the sock box.

And by they, the horrible they you're referring to, is

just Liana's three daughters or also Liana?

I'm pretty sure it's just the daughters.

Liana almost never wears socks if she can help it.

They're, yeah, sock hater.

Not the three wonderful young women who have accepted me into their home.

They, is what you mean to say.

Is that the words you want to choose again?

They.

yes

just go full those people

does your oldest daughter live at home uh well she she did um she just moved out well she moved to college she's still living at home but she's living at college right now uh she moved out in august is she nearby or is she she's like an hour away so okay she has her own sock situation now until she's home for the summer.

Okay.

How long ago, Charlie, did you and Liana start dating?

And how long ago did you move in?

I've been dating almost three years.

And I moved in, I want to say a year ago.

Two years ago.

Okay, so you moved in about two years ago seems to be the consensus, right?

Yes.

All right, let's take a look at the sock box.

You sent in some photos.

Who sent in the photos, if I may ask?

Me.

Liana.

Okay, exhibit A.

The sock box before

Charlie moved in.

And this photo will obviously be available on our showpage at maximumfund.org, as well as on our Instagram account at judgejohnhodgman on Instagram.

Oh, do I ever plead for you to follow us there and like, share, subscribe, et cetera, et cetera.

Social media is how people discover the show now.

Now that that's all that's left of culture.

Anyway, sorry about that, Liana.

This place, this looks like a mess.

Sorry about it.

Well, yeah, this is like, I tried to find a very like handed shot.

Like, I was taking a picture of my kid.

So this is just like a random day

how we would live if people weren't coming credit to you for not trying to stage a sock box yeah yeah you could have had it's true charlie she could have put up a real glamour photo of the sock box in perfect order but what i see here i know that when john when i was looking at houses to buy a few years ago here in los angeles a lot of men had like a a really perfectly staged almost manicured sock box in the living room yeah yeah yeah you want to sell if you want to move uh real estate you got to stage a sock box yeah Nice.

But this is what I see.

I see like a green, a smaller bin than I imagined.

And I really do think that this is a bin more than a box.

At least it's not a cardboard box.

It specifically is a bin that looks like it fits into a modular piece of furniture that is not present.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Oh, yeah.

I threw away the furniture.

I kept the bins because it's a nice bin, you know.

Two years ago, you moved in there.

You're like, that's got to go.

Nice bin, though.

No, we'll keep the bin.

Wow.

It was in the basement.

Where can I put my unsightly milk crate

and my wrapped 12-pack of bottled waters, the other things that I see in here?

Are those your possessions, Charlie, or are they also part of the general decorative scheme of Liana and daughters?

That was there when I got there.

Yeah, that was there.

That was there when you got there.

That was the shoe crate.

Before Charlie built us a shoe rack.

We had a milk crate for shoes and a bin for socks, which sounds weirder out loud.

And then Waters, yeah.

And then Waters.

I mean, look,

at that time, before Charlie moved in,

had you been living by yourself for a period of time?

I mean, by yourself as the only adult in the house.

Yeah.

And three kids who are in it

all the time.

Yeah.

I mean,

we're all doing the best we can.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Can I ask, is this set up?

you said it's in the living room, is it proximate to the front door?

And I mean, I want to be clear, I'm asking this as a,

I've received many emails informing me that I'm a horrific monster because I typically wear shoes in the house.

But is this by the front door?

Because I noticed that there is

white or off-white carpeting.

Yeah, it's directly to the left of the door.

Yeah, right when you walk in, right there on the left.

Yeah, yeah.

It's wall-to-wall wall-to-wall carpeting.

It's very old carpeting.

It's not, look, it's not my choice, but we're all doing the best we can.

At the time you developed the sock bin and shoe crate system,

you had three children who were even younger than they are now.

I think you did a good job.

But then we have the after photo.

Now,

honestly, who sent him this photo?

Was it you, Charlie, or Liana?

That's also Liana.

Okay, so tell me what I'm seeing here because I'm now seeing a close-up.

It seems a little bit neater, but it's so close-up I can't really tell what's changed.

So explain to me what's happened between then and now.

So to compromise, I have the sock box inside of like, it's one of those like storage ottoman things that you get at Costco.

Yeah.

And so it's hidden.

So sock box is now hidden inside a larger box that has a lid.

Boxes within boxes.

Yes.

And next to the nice pile of socks, and there's some mushroom socks, and they look like cozy socks.

Oh, oh yeah socks with mushrooms on them socks with some blue flowers on them yeah you asserted that these socks were all about the same these are almost all colored and patterned socks and they're very different thicknesses yeah

like you it would be hard to pick a more heterogeneous group of socks yeah liana i hope you don't take this the wrong way but you got some motley socks There's probably some support hose in here.

I don't know.

There's some like basketball compression socks.

Yeah.

It's just a, it's just a bunch.

Oh, and they're in, now they're in a yellow bin.

I can, I've just made this out.

There's some stirrups and sanitary socks in here because you're a baseball player from the 1940s.

There's so much sock stimuli coming at me that I almost couldn't, my brain couldn't parse this top-down photo that they are in a yellow bin.

So that's a bin update as well.

I don't remember if it was the same bin or not.

We had like a couple of these bins in different colors that used to be like a toy box kind of thing with the bins on until charlie got rid of all the toys until charlie moved in he needed we don't need any more toys in here time to grow up and move out kids charlie's here you can keep these bins for your socks though they're your toys now

what's the case that's next to the the sock bin inside the the hideaway ottoman the one that definitely looks like it's a book of cds Oh, no, no, no, no.

That's one of the kids' binders for school.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Five-star brand.

Yes, yes, yes.

Oh, I wish it had CDs.

I wish it was CDs too.

I could really listen to Jagged Little Pill right now.

Oh, yeah.

My youngest one is into the 90s music, so hardcore.

It's great.

Just to clear it up right away, you ought to know it's not ironic.

Moving on.

Liana, how did your original system come to be?

What was its genesis?

Well, we have three kids, and even from when they were like little and started wearing socks, like they're two years apart, so they all vaguely wore the same socks.

And I wasn't gonna, everybody's laundry is done at the same time.

Right.

And you kind of sort the laundry amongst the three of them, even though they start sharing stuff at a weird point in their lives.

And I wasn't gonna sort socks.

That's crazy.

And then I'd have to buy so many socks.

And they're always losing socks.

And then the socks are everywhere.

So I just find socks, I wash them, they go in the bin.

And then as we're on our way out the door and we're we're going, we got to go, we got to go, we got to go, we're late, they just grab socks.

They just grab socks.

Yeah.

Now, there seems to have been an upgrade since then, since you moved in, Charlie.

The bin is no longer green.

It's now yellow.

So that's a plus.

Unless you're a green lantern.

That's a comic book thing.

It's now inside a hideaway Ottoman next to some school supplies.

Is this acceptable to you or is this still unacceptable to you?

I mean, this was like last, like, I feel like you did this for the podcast.

Yeah, you know what I mean?

Because I don't think you'd given much thought to the system.

Is that true?

Is that true?

Did you game the system for the podcast?

I mean, like, it is this.

The podcast did make us talk a little bit more about the socks.

And this was like, well, we have this new storage Ottoman.

I can hide the sock box.

So, yeah.

Well, I mean, is this

that seems to be a potential solution, Charlie?

Why isn't it?

Why is Liana still wrong?

She's still wrong because,

so it's the,

I mean, they're not folded and that's fine.

They're not folded.

They're not paired or anything.

You know what I mean?

I don't know if the microphones picked up that audible shudder that Charlie just let loose.

That's

fine.

But it's the inclusion of the dirty socks going back in.

And then there's sometimes there is

a smell associated with it.

I mean, you know, so I mean, the new box might contain that.

When you come home, what's the first thing you do?

Open up the ottoman and stick your face in the sock box and give it a sniff, purity test.

No, I take my shoes off.

All right.

But not my socks.

Well, right.

We're going to talk about your separate sock system in a moment here.

But Liana, is it or is it not true that dirty socks are going into the sock box?

It does have.

Since it's been in the box within the box, it has not happened.

But that is, again, it's very, very recent.

So it hasn't been fully tested yet.

But when the sock box was just next to the shoes, then yes, a lot of times the kids would come in.

They took off their shoes.

They took off their socks.

And things can get mixed.

And sometimes you'd have to sniff the sock before you put on the snack.

Yeah, I know.

That's why when I'm on tour with Jesse, I always have to knock on his hotel room to have him sniff my socks before I put them on.

yeah because you can't smell your own okay quick check-in

so had you ever had over the two years that charlie was living there in total disgust and before the hideaway ottoman came into your lot into your lives did you ever tell the kids please put your dirty socks somewhere else oh yeah theoretically they're supposed to put their socks downstairs like in the basement like there's like a landing area they're supposed to put them there and then they get washed when we do laundry laundry so you have a basement and the laundry is in the basement yes and there's no hamper anywhere else in the house i mean there's hampers yeah like in their bedroom but yeah you're gonna go upstairs and take your socks off why is that why is that less reasonable than going to the basement to take your socks i can't imagine a place i'd least like to take my socks off yeah i can't imagine a place i'd least like to have bare feet well no you don't you don't go into the basement you just take them off and you throw them down the stairs oh well that's a game That's fun.

Yeah.

Then you don't, then you dump your marbles.

Right.

And ball bearings.

Where's the basement door in relation to the front door?

Maybe like

seven feet from it.

Well, maybe.

Seven far to walk.

Seven steps.

Yeah, it's not far.

It's not a big house.

Yeah.

It's in between the living room where the sock drawer is and the kitchen.

How did it come to be that this practice of returning dirty socks to the clean sock bin began?

Do you have kids, Jesse?

I have three kids, yes.

Do they put all their things away when you tell them to all the time?

Have you been in their room lately?

They don't like use a tissue and then put it back in the tissue box.

They might leave it on a side table.

You know what I mean?

Well, I mean, that's like the socks.

Like a lot of times they're not in the sock box.

Like they're just kind of spread out throughout the living room.

And then somehow people just move them.

To be fair, two of my three children are real Lianas who refuse to wear socks under any circumstances.

Well, and this was what came up when I talked to the girls about this.

And I was like, hey, can you not put your socks directly like in the box when you get home?

And they, they were like, why would I?

Well, I bet they were thrilled to have that conversation.

Yeah.

Well,

your mother's new live-in house.

You're not my real dad.

Socks fascist.

This is why I listened to Rage Against the Machine.

Their perspective was, why on earth would I not do this?

So, Charlie, let's turn to your system then.

What do you do with your socks and what should we all do with our socks?

Uh, yeah, so I walk in the door, shoes come off, uh, the socks will stay on, and then I usually keep them on while I, you know, putter around after work, go in the kitchen.

You know, I don't really like that feeling of bare feet on like tile because every little molecule, you know, you feel we have cats, so sometimes there's like cat litter on the ground.

How many cats do you have?

Uh, two, two cats, fish and disco.

Fish and disco.

Good names for cats.

Whose cats were they originally?

They were.

Well, fish was there already.

Yeah.

You never saw fish for the first six months.

Yep.

And then we

disco when you moved in.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, all right.

So disco was adopted by the two of you.

All right.

Got it.

And do either of them ever carry socks from room to room in their mouths?

And do you have video of it that you can send me immediately?

The dog occasionally will pick up a stray sock and, you know, worry it.

We have various toys for that, but she loves a sock.

Did I ask you if the dog carries socks around?

Right?

Dogs carry things around all the time.

Not impressive.

I'm looking for cats carrying things around in their mouths from room to room.

They can't just be worrying it or playing with it.

They've got to be moving it around with purpose.

I'm sorry to get upset about this, Charlie, but you misunderstand what I'm asking for here.

Cats.

carrying socks from room to room.

Yes or no?

Don't wait for the translation.

Yes or no?

No.

No.

Okay.

Thank you, Charlie.

I appreciate it.

All right, wait a minute.

So you come in, you leave your socks on because you don't want to walk around on cat dander and stray litter, of course.

Sure.

And when you do finally take your socks off, when is that in your routine?

Usually

later on in the evening, I'll usually,

you know, when I go upstairs to change into my, you know, relaxing home attire.

Soft clothes.

Soft clothes, as Paul and Janie had Ed Tompkins would say.

Yep, changing my soft clothes, put the socks in the hamper.

Such a liar.

Oh, you have been accused of lying.

Tell me the truth, Liana.

This happens.

This happens sometimes.

And yet, when I was perhaps somewhat staging the updated photo of the sock box within a bigger box, I had to clean up a little bit around it because I wasn't sure to take a wide angle or small shot.

And so I was cleaning up around it.

There were quite a few socks I had to pick up and

the majority of them i believe were yours sir charlie what i meant to say is that i do occasionally take my socks off and put them on the ground wherever i am

wherever you are which could be near the clean sock bin or anywhere well strangely enough i never throw them towards the sock bin i usually uh they'll be you know under the coffee table in front of the couch or sometimes under the kitchen table.

And so then I gather up all the socks and I wash all the socks.

And then all the socks that I have washed go into the sock box.

And then eventually somebody's like, I have no socks.

And I'm like, look in the sock box.

Including Charlie's discarded under coffee table socks?

Oh, yeah.

Yep, she'll throw them in there.

Well, why wouldn't she?

You failed to put them away.

You're not wrong.

You want to get rid of the sock box altogether, Charlie?

What's going on?

Yeah, I would like a sock box less life.

I feel like it.

Even though you have benefited from it.

Yeah, I would take it.

mean, you have, you have, because what happens to the socks that you strangely discard underneath the coffee table?

You're right.

Unless Liana comes and cleans them up for you.

I mean, I do occasionally, I clean my own socks too.

I'll go, I'll do a run.

You do.

You do.

You know, on laundry day, I'll go and

gather my socks

because I don't know what's clean and what's dirty over there.

I can't.

I couldn't be.

You just wash them all.

That's true, Charlie.

I mean, it seems like you're giving yourself extra work

by, dare I say, segregating your socks and punishing the socks that don't belong specifically to your feet.

You could just wash all the socks and then you could fold them up and put them away.

You could be getting rid of the sock box yourself simply by making this your chore rather than taking or being taken to an internet court.

How do you respond?

I don't want to.

once again i appreciate your honesty well played charlie well played acknowledge your honesty there liana have you ever considered matching socks no

no uh-uh why no the only time i do that is if i'm doing like charlie and my laundry and like his are so easy because they're like the same socks so i'll do his sometimes if i have time but i honestly What is it?

Who's seeing your socks?

Who cares?

Okay.

First of all, everyone sees your socks.

Your socks definitely show

pants don't naturally magically extend when you bend your knee.

They lift and show your socks.

So I'm going to dismiss that life argument.

It's absurd.

And you know that.

Don't try and fool me.

What I mean is not

pairing the socks that you already have, but what if you went to

or ordered online

actual matching socks?

Let's call them navy blue socks, right?

The classic, simplest sock to wear.

Or if we're talking about athletic socks, just white tube socks.

And that way, the socks would always

match and be ready.

You wouldn't have to pair them.

You could just keep them in a bin and also probably do something about the gross dirty ones.

But let's leave that apart aside.

But that'd be so sad.

You wouldn't get to wear like the cool like Teenage Mutant Ninja socks.

Or what about the Todoro socks?

Or sometimes you want fuzzy socks.

Or sometimes you want a crossover event.

Exactly.

Right?

Like

if we have to wear socks, they should be fun socks.

Do the other members of your family resent socks as much as you do, Liana?

I don't know.

I think I might have raised them to.

It might have been roughed up.

I mean, my middle daughter has kind of taken to trying to segregate her own socks.

Like, she does her own laundry now, and she has insisted I buy her her own socks, which are very boring and plain and easy to match.

Even though, again, hers still end up various places and then washed and put into the communal sock box because I'm not separating them.

So let me ask you, in the light of that, I mean,

if the sock box system were perfected, right?

And there were no dirty socks going in there and they were only ever clean socks for the kids and your beloved Liana to grab and mix and match however they like, but there were no dirty socks going in there.

There were no socks outside of the sock box.

And meanwhile, you were policing your own socks and they were in a completely different sock ecosystem.

If it's a completely separate system, if the streams never cross and the sock box is working the way it's designed to work by only housing clean socks and all the dirty socks go into the...

into the basement or whatever and you never have to touch them or think of them or see them, is it still going to bother you that there is this sock box?

Are you as upset about this as Jesse Thorne is?

So, if I would be fine with the sock box existing under those conditions, it's really like

the dirty socks kind of, you know, like a bad apple spoils the bunch.

It's just now

you have less than 100% clean socks, which is, I don't know how to deal with that.

And even if that ottoman is closed, you know that there's one adulterant sock in there at least.

Oh, yeah, and it haunts you all day long.

I see.

It's important for Liana to focus on stanking up the shoes directly without the intermediary force of the socks.

You mentioned Liana.

You mentioned Liana that I believe it's your middle daughter who is now asking you to buy matching socks for her, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

She has her own specific socks now that she washes and puts in her drawer.

But she's doing it on her own.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Which I'm fine with.

I mean, you're taking developing her own system.

She is.

Yeah.

And she's doing that like with her money from her after-school job.

Like she's delivering newspapers so she can finally have her own socks.

Yeah.

I mean, I bought her the socks.

I will buy them socks.

It's just, we have socks.

I know, but how do you feel knowing that this middle daughter is rejecting the sock box and by extension, you?

She is the middle daughter, so I expect it.

Is the older daughter got a sock box in her dorm room or wherever she's staying?

I fully expect that they are watted up underneath her bed.

Yeah, probably.

Okay.

And does the younger daughter resent the middle daughter for having socks that match?

I don't think she.

I think the youngest daughter usually wears the mismatching socks.

Like, I feel like she's the biggest proponent of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's very free and easy with sock shoes.

Yeah.

How does the middle daughter feel about

you throwing her clean socks into the sock box if she doesn't put them away herself?

Oh, she gets annoyed by it when she finds them in there.

And then I go, well, how do you think they got there?

And then she just walks away.

Charlie, Liana and her daughters have lived with the system for years.

You're not being forced to participate.

And you're in a delicate position as

a relatively new member of this household.

Why are you making this a conflict?

What does it mean to you?

It just seems like chaos in a way.

Like,

I would like some order to the socks, like some kind of inner logic to how they're placed because it just seems like madness.

Liana, how big of a home is this?

It's not very big.

It's a town home with a basement and two stories.

Charlie, I mean,

you're in a world that is dominated by four people who have lived there for a long time and share what is arguably a very close bond, mother and daughter.

Do you feel like there is nothing in this house that you can control?

No, no, I do not.

I don't feel it's weird because there isn't anything you can control in this house.

I don't know why you don't feel that way.

You're very right about that.

Yeah, maybe I just would like a little bit of control about this, you know, this little area.

How have you expressed your frustration with the sockbox system before coming on this podcast?

I would bring it up to them.

Did you hold a big family meeting?

You turn your chair around and sit down.

You get them all to sit in front of you and say, all right, Charlie's here.

There are going to be some new rules.

No, you know, they would come home.

tear their socks off, throw them in the bin, and I would say, hey, could you guys put them in the basement or upstairs and they would say no

yeah and that was pretty much it you know i didn't i couldn't really push too much

my position is delicate as you said how how what's the what's the mood like in the house how how does uh how your daughters feel about charlie living there if i may be so blunt liana uh they love charlie it was it was there was an adjustment period of of me being at work why i can't imagine why right getting phone calls of charlie said that we should i should do the dishes and he's he's mad because I didn't do the dishes.

I was like, well, I mean, he's allowed to ask you to do adult things.

That's all right.

But I think like they've, they've come around to it and it seems fine.

But they the middle one took about, took about a good nine months of like solidly bullying me.

But she's, I think I won her over.

How would she bully you?

I want to know.

She was just like,

she was very, she was mean, you know, in the way that like 15-year-old girls can be mean.

Yeah.

Like, like that.

How is it that you came to move in, Liana?

Did did your daughter say, please, mom, we want a weird dad, the weirdest possible?

I mean,

kind of.

I mean, that was their qualification for any guy I brought into the house.

But no, I mean, he was living in Philly and

that's like kind of far.

And then his list was going to be up and he was already over a lot of the time.

And we left him.

How did you meet?

I thought he was breaking into into a dog store.

Yeah, so we worked.

Wait, wait, say that sentence again.

I don't want to, not for the edit.

I just want to hear it again.

I thought he was breaking into a dog store.

And so I called the store.

Breaking into a dog store.

So I called the store.

Go on.

All right.

I'm listening.

Do you want to start it up?

So

we worked across the street from each other in a shopping center.

And I worked at a pet store that specialized in dogs.

And sometimes, like at eight at night, they would have also known as a dog store.

Yeah.

Well, it's, it's not a pet store.

It's just the, but okay.

I understand.

Okay.

So you've already eliminated one of the two of you.

So

if Liana, you didn't work at Hot Dog on a Stick, I'm going to be really bummed.

If two people fall in love across the street from each other in a shopping center, one of them's got to work at Hot Dog on a Stick.

Oh, and they did have have wiener dogs at their dog store.

Yeah.

And so some there's late nights where there would be a dog, like a class going on with a trainer, and I would just be minding the register, not really doing anything.

So I started to bring my guitar and I would go outside where it was, there was no one out because most of the stores were closed.

And I would just play my guitar by the front door.

And then.

Yeah.

So Charlie's out there doing his dog store busking and you notice him how, Leon.

We were closing and

no, there was no customers in because we thought we were the only store open that late.

And there were, it was like,

yeah, yeah.

It was Monday night and it was dead.

And my friend who was closing with me was like, there's a man standing outside the dog store playing guitar.

And we're like, we were very confused because we were like, this is the worst place in time to be busking.

Like, there's no people.

There's no foot traffic.

And we were bored.

So we opened the door and we sat on the bench outside our store and listened to him play and then clapped for him.

And then he went inside the dog store, which we thought was closed.

So we were like, did that man just break into the dog store?

Right.

Like, this is the weirdest.

He plays a song and then breaks in.

Like the weirdest.

There's an itinerant troubadour who is living in the dog store and occasionally coming out to play.

What song did he play?

Do you remember?

I have a little video clip, but no, it was a country song.

Yeah, I think it was probably like a lefty frizel song or something.

Yeah, we're going to need that video clip right away to put on our social media.

Okay.

I will send that along.

This meet, this meet cute is going to get blown up.

That's an incredible story.

I love that story.

We didn't think anybody would believe us that this was happening.

And then we were like, well, we better save this for the police, possibly.

Right, right.

Yeah.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go in my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Liana, how are you feeling about your chances right now?

I feel like I've made a compelling case.

I think that busy working moms everywhere with lots of kids who are slightly messy will understand.

The Trump card.

The Trump card is being played.

It's being played.

It's thrown down.

Think about these busy single mothers.

What about our firefighters and teachers?

Do it for the children.

Charlie, how do you feel?

I'm kind of 50-50 because I know it can kind of go either way with weird dads and

their weird zees, you know?

But I think I made some good points.

I think the

central tenant is strong, you know, and I'm willing.

I'm open to compromise.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening and if not we just leave it out back and goes rotten so check it out on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts

all right we're over 70 episodes into our show let's learn everything so let's do a quick progress check have we learned about quantum physics yes episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Well, Judge Hodgman, I have to say we had a pretty awesome time in the Midwest on the road court tour.

Baby kangaroos.

Can we talk about baby kangaroos for a second?

Okay, so we went to a petting zoo in a mall outside of St.

Paul, Minnesota.

That's right.

This is a petting zoo recommended by many listeners of Judge John Hodgman to me.

We had to carve out a special block of time in our travel schedule to make it there.

It was pretty tricky.

We had to get up early on a day when we went to bed at one o'clock in the morning in order to make it there in time and then make it to the theater in time.

It could not have been more worth it.

You'll have to follow our social media feeds to find out all the different animals that I petted there, but let's just say that one of them was the world's largest rodent.

I had left my phone number at this place just because I was like, if anybody wants free tickets to the show tonight, I had such a great time.

I'm glad to give anybody the people there were so sweet.

Anybody who wants free tickets, you're welcome.

Terrific people over there at Sustainable Safari in St.

Paul.

I get a text.

I look at my phone.

It says, hi, this is Melissa.

I coordinate the healthcare at Sustainable Safari, where you were earlier today.

I have some baby kangaroos living at my house.

Would you like me to bring them by?

I was like, I'm like, tonight?

Question mark, question mark, question mark, question mark.

So I was like, I mean, yes.

I don't mean to speak for everyone else in the theater, but yes, yes, definitely, yes.

We checked in with the people at the Fitzgerald.

They said, as long as someone is with them all the time, as long as they're not loose.

Yeah.

They gave the kangaroos their own dressing room.

Thank you to the Fitzgerald Theater in St.

Paul for this as well.

They checked in with their house dog, Vienna the dog.

That's right.

One of the cutest dogs on Instagram,

Vienna Dog, at Vienna Dog.

The sweetest sweetest dog in the world.

Everybody was okay with it.

So we brought those baby kangaroos on stage with us in St.

Paul.

Oh, my gosh.

And we got to hold them.

Probably the highlight of my tour, indeed, perhaps the highlight of my touring life with Judge John Hodgman was the moment when they placed the little, like, the little papoose of baby kangaroo into our producer, Jennifer Marmer's arms.

Jennifer had by that point been away from her own baby for roughly a week.

And I just saw her turn into a mother so hard and fast.

Just the her eyes basically turned into hearts that were extending in and out.

She immediately started like rocking it and cooing to it.

It was one of the best things I've ever seen in my life.

We also petted them and they're very soft.

Kangaroos are soft.

And you're right, Jesse, there is video evidence of all of this heart-melting cuteness across all of our social medias.

Judge John Hodgman on Instagram and on our YouTube channel as well.

Go check it out.

Now, we can't promise baby kangaroos at all of our upcoming tour stops, but I can promise.

If you have baby kangaroos, get at us.

Yeah, oh, of course.

Yeah, if you've got baby kangaroos for sure.

But I can promise you lots and lots of surprises because every show is different.

At every show, we have new local litigants and a whole new improv storyline emerges that we never saw coming.

And if you have baby kangaroos, bring them.

We're going next to Burlington, Vermont, then Portland, Maine, then two homecomings for me.

I'm going back to the Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts to meet our friend Monty Belmonte on stage at the Shea Theater in Turner's Falls, and then our big sold-out show in Brookline, Massachusetts at the Coolidge.

Followed early next year by our shows in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, Seattle, Washington, Portland, Oregon, Oregon, soon-to-be-announced show at the San Francisco Sketch Fest, and wrapping up finally, the road court ends in Los Angeles at Dynasty Typewriter.

All those shows have tickets available for you now at maximumfund.org slash events.

And remember that Los Angeles show also features a comedy podcast called Jordan Jesse Go that I've heard is pretty good.

Who knows what you'll see?

And by the way, if there's someone in your life who's never listened to the podcast before, this is a great way to introduce them to it.

Everyone goes home having a good time.

And if you want to get into that sold-out show in Brookline, go to maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho and give us a Brookline-based dispute for us to adjudicate.

We might hear it on stage and we might be able to sneak you in the back door.

We do need your disputes for all of these shows.

Maximumfund.org/slash disputes.

If we pick your case to be adjudicated on stage, we will meet you and greet you and be grateful forever after.

So remember those links: maximumfund.org slash events for tickets and

maximumfund.org maximumfund.org slash jjho for all of your cases let's get back to the case

please rise as judge john hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict

okay so first of all i want to say congratulations to you both both for being adorable and meeting in a very adorable way

and for blending a household successfully, which is not something that I've had to do, but I can only guess at the amount of complications, both external and emotional, that are involved in that.

And it does seem that with the exception of this one box of dirt, you've organized a household that seems to be functioning, where everyone feels heard and seen and appreciated.

I mean, you know, what you're asking is a challenging thing here, Charlie, because you are entering a a world that is not your own initially.

I mean, you've been there for two years, but even though everyone loves Charlie, that's what I hear anyway, you know, like to be start laying down the law in an established household where you are the outsider is

some people could do it a lot less delicately than you did, and some people can be real jerks or whatever about it, putting a strain on the family.

And it doesn't sound like that has happened here.

That said, what has happened here is that you have discovered

something that perhaps you didn't know about yourself, which is that you are tidy.

You said,

I didn't think I was being particularly precious about these things.

I didn't think that that would describe me before I, and this is a direct quote from you, before I moved into this Doylestown town home dirtier than the dog store I used to live in.

I used to live with dogs, but

nothing prepared me for the feral lifestyle of Liana and her three daughters.

That's a direct quote from you, Charlie.

I don't know if you remember saying that, but we can play it back if you want.

But I mean to say only, obviously you didn't say that, but it's like, you know, like

when you live alone or when you live an entwined and entangled life with a partner for a long time, you develop your own sense of what's tidy, what's messy, and what's not.

And that can be very different to someone who just enters your home all of a sudden and they say, oh, you know what?

It smells like like cat pea in here.

You remember how we were talking about how we have a cat and it is my constant terror that people can smell this cat's pea and we can't.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

That is a true fear that I have because I know

as an only child who then entered into a life with another person very happily more than 25 years ago, that you don't know what you smell like until you live with another person.

And sometimes you smell like cat pea and you got to make an adjustment in your life.

And sometimes you realize that the other person smells like cat pea or shall I say has a different standard of clutter than you do.

And I'm going to say that Liana,

I'm breaking with my own bailiff here and agreeing strongly with you.

No one's looking at your socks.

No one cares if your socks are mismatched.

Very few people.

Now, this isn't to say that it's not a principle worth upholding, but I would argue that if your socks match, that's because you want them to, because it makes you feel good.

I would not feel good walking around with one teenage ninja turtles tube sock on my left calf, shapely calf, I might say,

and a Roblox

ankle high on my right.

I would feel bad about myself.

I would feel uncomfortable.

I would feel it.

But I agree, only a few people would really notice, especially if you're a child.

Actually, I take it back.

In fact,

children are more likely to be judged for their wardrobe choices than adults because children are, at least socks, that is, because children are often

wearing shorter pants longer into their lives than adults do.

And so people do see those socks and people will look at those mismatched socks and they won't judge the children.

They'll judge,

unfortunately, the mother most of the time or the parent in general.

But for adults, no one cares, no one's thinking about you the way you think you're thinking about you, unless it's Charlie and he's just moved in and he's seeing things a different way.

All of which is to say that I think that your sock box solution as a system in theory is absolutely fine.

I think it's a good idea for a good streamlining for your laundry situation to have clean socks available for going out, especially if your kids don't like to wear socks in the house, and that it's fine for them to be mismatched because honestly, who should care?

And if people are looking at your kids, you're saying it's a trend in their school, so they look cool there.

But if there are adults in the world who are looking at those mismatched socks, going like, I don't think their parent is doing a good job, then

they can go.

Then they can go suck a soiled sock.

Yes, thank you.

Then they can go suck a soiled sock.

Thank you very much, Bailiff Jesse.

Because what you're doing is you're providing

clean socks for your kids, they know they're cared for,

and

it's a system that works until it doesn't.

Now, you have to admit that the system has not been working.

If dirty socks are going into the clean sock pin, here I must side with Charlie.

The system that works in theory that doesn't work in practice needs to be fixed.

So, again, I think in theory, the sock box works.

In practice, however,

you must acknowledge, we all must acknowledge that it doesn't.

Charlie and you are now melding lives, have been for two years.

And it's important to respect each other's standards and patterns of cleanliness and tidiness, two different things.

And it's also important to keep your mind open to when someone says there might be a better way.

And in this case, I do think that your sockbox idea, good as it is, is not yet been perfected.

And your own kids are figuring that out too, because your middle daughter already is like, you know what, I'm getting to be a grown-up now.

I would like to wear my own matching socks.

And

your own middle daughter, though not a 100% every time practitioner of this, understands that if there's a better way for her, she's got to be responsible for it.

And she has to do her own laundry.

And if she doesn't, it goes into the box.

Also, very good.

But the fact that dirty socks are going back into the clean sock box, that means the project is not working.

And I would say that there is a very simple solution.

Obviously, the idea of putting a dirty sock bin next to the clean sock bin, it's intriguing.

You could give it a try.

I bet you it wouldn't work because it's too close.

Once, you know, socks get thrown and also socks move on their own.

We all know this.

We've all lost socks in the dryer.

Where are they going?

I would say one solution is, I mean, seven.

Seven steps to the basement door doesn't feel like a long way when you're coming in the door.

But if you're coming in the door and you want them to take their socks off, it's got to be right by the door, even closer than the clean sock box.

Maybe set up a little place to sit down, take off your shoes, put your shoes on the shoe tree that Charlie created.

And Charlie, why don't you build a dirty sock box in there?

Not in the same ottoman.

Everyone knows that socks mixed in the same ottoman never stay apart.

That's a saying.

But there's an even simpler solution and one that I would encourage, nay, order that you undertake in your house.

Charlie, I appreciate that on an intuitive level, the chaos in the sock box upsets you in the same way that it upsets Jesse Thorne and me, though to a much lesser degree.

And I would say

that there's such a simple way for you to resolve this issue in your home and live up to the incredibly charming dog store busker that you started out as.

A superhero, if you will, a romantic comedy lead.

Just, just you take care of the socks, dude.

Just make socks your thing.

Make socks your thing.

Grab them, clean them.

Fold yours, sock box the others.

Or

take orders.

You fold your own socks and put them away, however you like it.

The little ones.

clean socks go in the sock box.

And perhaps you even go so far as to separate, wash, fold, and present back to Liana's middle daughter her clean, paired, navy blue, or whatever matching socks they are.

And then you're not on a podcast.

You're in the not quite stepdad hall of fame,

which is a better place to be than a podcast, let me tell you.

So my order is,

and I'm not sure who's, who's winning this one or not, because I can't do all the math because my brain doesn't work that way anymore.

But I love the sock box.

But Charlie, if it's broken, you got to make it work.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Charlie, how are you feeling?

Well, I feel like I got some

spiritual victory, but I'm going to just kind of end.

Now I got to do the laundry.

I feel like I lost.

Don't worry.

Laundry is one of the easiest and most satisfying of chores.

Liana, how are you feeling?

I feel very good.

I think he made very good points.

I feel vindicated somewhat.

And I'm very excited for you to become like Zen with the socks.

I will do my best.

Thank you, guys.

You're a joy.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

Before we dispense some swift justice, our thanks to Redditor M.K.

Becker for naming this week's episode Knee-High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Join the conversation over on the Maximum Fun subreddit.

That is maximumfund.reddit.com if you want to name a future episode or just see all the great ideas that people post.

Or chat about this week's episode.

There's always a good chat about every episode.

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That's at judgejohnhodgman.

Follow us there.

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You can find us on TikTok and YouTube at judgejohnhodgman pod, where in addition to content from the show, there's all kinds of cool other stuff as well.

Share a clip from the Judge John Hodgman podcast on TikTok or on Instagram.

We really appreciate when you tell somebody about the show.

It's not just that we like it.

It really helps people discover the show.

And that's not an easy thing to do these days.

It's all that's left that helps people discover the show.

So please tell somebody, share something.

John, we have an Apple Podcasts rating here.

That is absolutely right, Jesse.

And we say thank you to Atomic Adams, who left these kind words for us over on Apple Podcast, plus a five-star rating.

Thank you very much.

Atomic Adams writes, hands down, my favorite American comedy podcast.

Exclamation point.

Atomic Adams also says they love the community that is built up amongst the commenters on YouTube and Instagram.

And it's a lot of fun.

You know what?

The comments are not toxic.

They're a lot of fun.

I drop in there all the time.

It is fun.

We also have, by the way, not just on Apple Podcasts, but also these days on Pocketcasts, which is a platform that a lot of our listeners use, you can leave ratings for podcasts.

And that is a big new deal.

And we would be very grateful to you if you left a review for Judge John Hodgman on Pocketcasts.

And if you're listening on Spotify, you can leave a comment on individual episodes now.

And that also helps people discover the show.

But you know what also helps people discover the show?

Talking about it.

Tell a friend today about the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Makes a big difference to us.

Judge John Hodgman created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Jay Powell at Philly Podcast Space in Philadelphia.

Our social media manager is Natty Lopez.

The editor, AJ McKeon.

Our video editor, Daniel Speer.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

All right, let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment.

Here's one from SZ.

When returning an opened bag of chips to the cupboard, I think you should be thorough in removing the air from the bag.

Or is it enough to just fold over the top once and clip it in the middle?

Obviously, when you're trying to store food product, the more air you can get out of the bag, the longer it will last.

But, SZ, I got to tell you something.

You're never going to make those chips crisp again.

It's never going to happen no matter how much air you get out of there.

Once it's open, you got to eat them and as quickly as possible.

Don't get party-sized for yourself.

Share it with friends.

But those chips are never going to get better and they're not even going to stay the same.

The only exception, of course, is if you're on tour with Jesse Thorne and Jennifer Marmor, and Jennifer Marmor gets a bag of Utz crab chips,

and the two of you eat half of them in the back of the

Chrysler Pacifica,

and then you leave it open in the back of the Pacifica for the afternoon, and it gets to be about 100 degrees in there.

Well, then you have a whole new snack called Utz Hot Crab Chips.

Yeah.

Otherwise, you're splitting hairs.

You should be splitting potato chips in your teeth.

Eat them up, SZ.

So, speaking of tour, we just wrapped the first two legs of the Judge John Hodgman Road Court.

And yet, you know, the Judge John Hodgman podcast has three legs.

We'll be heading to New England starting November 6th.

If you live in or near Burlington, Vermont, Portland, Maine, Berners Falls, Western Massachusetts, or Brookline, Eastern Massachusetts, we want and need you there, and we want to need your cases.

Our show in Brookline is sold out.

So if you missed out on tickets, there is only one way to get into the show, and that's to come to us with a great dispute for us to hear live on stage.

And if you're going to be in any of these other spots and you have a dispute that you'd like to be adjudicated on stage by us, let us know, won't you?

Submit all of your disputes at maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

That link again for your disputes, maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And of course, we want to hear any of your disputes at that URL, maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

No case too big or too small.

We judge them all.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And remember, if you are a member of Maximum Fun, we have an all-disputes answered guarantee on the membo mailbag.

So send them in, maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

Let us know you're a member and use that secret code.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows.

Supported directly by you.