Claw and Door-der

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Claw and Doorder.

Matt brings the case against his partner, Maddie.

Matt says their cat screams if it's on either side of a closed door.

To keep the peace, Matt would like to sleep with the bedroom door open, but Maddie says she can't stand sleeping with an open door.

The cat screams aren't that bad.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

He's my cat.

He's not God or whatever's cat.

Let God or whatever have his own cat.

Let God or whatever have all the damn old cats he wants and kill them all.

Church is mine.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Matt and Maddie, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his favorite rapper of all time is MC Scatcat?

Do you?

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Well, it is true that opposites attract.

Isn't that right, Joel?

Totally.

All right, I'm here with Joel Mann at the summerchambersweru.org in Orland, Maine.

There's Jesse Thornover at MaximFun HQ.

And there are our litigants, Matt and Maddie, in Mesa, Arizona.

A lot of M's, the M squad down there.

You may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

One of your favorites can have you named the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom.

How about Maddie?

You go first.

So it seems very distant, but at least in my dreams, I feel like this is something that would be said in the magic schoolhouse, not the magic bus, but magic schoolhouse books.

Mummies in,

or

yeah mummies in i want to say manhattan it was one of the early ones but it had cats mummies look in manhattan it's possible list i don't think that that's

that's not what i'm quoting from

um but it could be it could be word for word in that book for all i know yeah i'm just going to go with my prepared guess which is the episode of it's always sunny in philadelphia where uh they're recording the fake documentary where dennis was accused of killing his ex-wife who was trying to become a cat.

That's a pretty good

prepared answer.

I appreciate that.

I've not seen that episode, so it is unlikely that I would be quoting from it.

Joel, you want to take a guess?

Cat's the musical.

Cat's the musical, you'd think I might.

I mean, there's a lot of,

this is a cat-themed

dispute.

There's a lot of cat content out there.

So I had to, I tried to find something a little bit more obscure.

than Cat's the Musical.

No offense.

Joel, I'll guess, are wrong.

The correct answer or the answer I was looking for, was Magic Tree House Number Four, Mummies in the Evening.

So close.

I know.

No, it's from a novel called Pet Cemetery by Maine native Stephen King.

And it is the young boy, Gage, is sad about his cat for a reason that I don't want to get into.

Because you know what?

You ever read Pet Cemetery, Joel?

No.

Don't read it.

No.

Look.

I've never read a Stephen King book.

Okay, Joel.

It's fine not to read that one

because it is traumatizing.

And Stephen King knew it too.

He put it away.

He's like, I can't publish this.

And then one day, like, because it was too, too, not just too scary, but too upsetting, Joel.

He is very upsetting.

Very, well, this one in particular was very upsetting.

Matt, Matt, have you ever read Pet Cemetery by Stephen King?

I have it on the bookshelf, but I haven't read it yet.

Have you ever read A Stephen King?

Oh, yeah.

Okay, so you see, Joel, they're in Arizona, and they've read one.

Judge Hodgman, I've never read Pet Cemetery, but I really like the Errol Morris movie, Gates of Heaven.

Have you ever watched that?

I have seen it.

It's one of his first ones, right?

It's about a pet cemetery.

Yeah, it's really crazy.

That's a great one.

You can watch that, but you don't have to read Pet Cemetery, even if you're a Stephen King completely, because it's very upsetting.

Stephen King himself was like, this is too upsetting to publish.

And he put it away for a while.

And then he woke up one day, I guess, and he was like, oh, shoot, I'm only going to publish five books this year.

I better put this one out too.

And it's very, it's truly upsetting.

And just the other thing you don't have to do is watch Frank D'Arabant's movie of the mist, which is a great movie until the end, which he makes it darker than the actual book.

And it's really, really upsetting.

And I tried to warn Aaron Franklin about this, a Franklin BBQ.

And he didn't, he didn't listen to me.

And he watched it and he was like, you were right.

You don't have to engage with stuff that is upsetting to you.

That's my message to everyone listening.

It is mandatory that you listen to this podcast.

Absolutely.

But if you know there's a piece of news that's just going to be upsetting to you and you know that by consuming that news or that story, you're not going to affect the outcome, you can take a break from it.

it you don't have to read pet cemetery there are a lot of other stephing books to read that's just my public message for today now let's get into the case uh okay you live there in uh in arizona and you have a dispute who comes seeking uh uh justice in this case i do oh okay what is uh that would be matt yes so uh as long as maddie and i've been together we've been together for just shy of six years she can't stand sleeping with a door open So like I have the largest bedroom in the house.

So like we have the unsuite bathroom.

So if that wasn't closed when, you know, we went to bed, I had to, you know, get up and close that.

We have to close our bedroom door.

And then about a year later, we got a cat that can't stand if he can't go through a door.

So he will scream at it.

And then so he would get locked up in our room at night.

And he will, not every night, but he will scream at the door, either when I'm trying to fall asleep or wake us up because he wants out.

You want to give your cat full access.

to your bed and your bedroom.

You want an open bedroom relationship with your cat.

Is that right,

Matt?

That is correct.

And the cat's name is Isaac.

I almost called you Isaac by accident.

I apologize.

You can call me Isaac.

I like our cat.

All cool names.

Matty, you want that door to be closed.

And we're going to get into all the reasons that one would reasonably want their bedroom door closed

in a moment.

So first,

before we get into that, if you don't mind, we've got to pay the pet tax, as they say on the subreddits.

We've got to take a look at this cat.

You sent in some evidence and photos of this cat, Isaac?

We did.

Okay, these photos are obviously going to be available on the Instagram and as well as on the YouTube and the TikTok, I presume.

Everywhere you find Judge John Hodgman, visually, you can find

these photos of this nice cat, Isaac, who is an orange cat and apparently, according to this photo, a podcaster.

Is that right?

A little bit.

I had to take that photo because it was too great.

That was my microphone for work and the photo was too great not to share.

So Isaac doesn't currently have a podcast yet?

No, it would be a lot of screaming.

Yeah, well, I still think you would have many more subscribers than we have.

All right, I'll get on there.

Very cute cat.

I mean, why wouldn't you want to sleep with this cat, Maddie?

So he actually does sleep with us.

He's stuck in the room,

which is what he doesn't like because he's not mentioning.

Okay, I see.

You're not trying to keep the cat out.

You just want the door closed when you're sleeping.

And the cat is like,

you're not the boss of any of us.

I'm the boss.

Open this door.

Meow, meow, meow.

He certainly does think that.

Right.

We had roommates, you know, that was kind of expected because you never know who's doing what.

So just keeping the door closed.

But there's also a safety sense to it.

It's about hugging and kissing.

Here we go.

Are you married or what?

Just dating.

Just dating?

But living together.

Yes.

Which is totally cool.

Maddie, what do you do all day down there in Mesa, Arizona?

Yeah,

I work at a plasma collection facility.

So I'm basically a certified vampire.

Whoa, the reverse of it.

Yeah, that's a good job.

Right, Jesse?

Yeah, it involves a lot of blood.

John, a lot of people think Draculus have to have that job, but it's not the case.

Draculus can have any job.

Oh,

well, but you're not, you're not a vampire, are you, Matt?

Oh, no, I don't like red meat.

I didn't like that pause there.

She did point out my veins while we were sitting here waiting for setup.

All right, Day Walker.

Uh, Matt, how did Isaac come into your life/slash lives?

Uh, we adopted him in December of 2019.

Our friend worked at a, you know, a pet rescue and was like, Hey, I'm not supposed to tell anyone this, but all of his fees are paid for.

So, we kind of showed up and adopted a cat.

Uh, you got a barking cat.

We did.

Uh, and he was very calm and loving in the shelter.

And then we got him home.

And like a week later, he was screaming and running through the house and having a great time.

And this was Manny, was this a mutual decision to adopt Isaac?

Relatively.

At that time, I was still in college, so we weren't officially living together because I went out of state.

So I supported it, but I didn't have any claim to the house.

I wasn't paying rent or anything.

So

did you feel like you couldn't oppose having the cat if you wanted to?

I mean, I wouldn't.

I would.

I've been voting for a cat since day one.

She's actually the cat person.

So.

Have you been voting multiple times?

Has it been vote fraud for cats?

Yes, just constantly in the morning.

And you are out of state, so you were

voting by mail.

Send a quick text, email.

You never know.

Yeah, we got to get, we got to get on the line with the attorney general in Arizona there, Jesse, start an investigation.

We're going to need you to find some cats.

Look, you can't vote too many times for cats.

That's the thing.

That's the thing of it.

Go ahead and vote as much as you want.

Nine lives, nine votes, something like that.

I think that sounds great.

So you feel good about this cat.

You like Isaac, all right?

Oh, from day one.

especially the person who we got it from happened to be,

they are friends with Matt, but they have been my close friend for a very long time.

So, a good provenance for a cat.

Oh, absolutely.

I neglected to mention that this I observed with my very keen eyes that this cat is a orange, a marmalade cat.

Yes, and only recently have I come to understand that orange cats have a rep

for being a little wacky.

Matt, what do you want to can you tell me a little bit about that?

You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah, sometimes he's really smart and on top of it.

And sometimes he's

not.

He like he screams at doors.

He will get really fixated on

something silly.

Like above our bed is a window.

So we actually had to move, like tuck behind the drawstring because in the middle of the night, he'll start attacking that.

He absolutely hates other cats.

So our neighborhood has a good amount of stray cats.

And you will watch him sit in front of the patio door and get into a fight with a cat outside, like full-on charge the glass, you know, glass sliding door and start screaming and like trying to attack a cat.

And we had one that would just sit outside and just stare at him while he's losing his mind trying to, you know, break out and kill this other cat.

He's full of beans.

Yeah.

Is that typical for an orange cat in particular?

Do you understand what I'm talking?

I mean, have you heard what I've heard about orange?

I don't know what the reputation is for orange cats.

Maddie, do you know?

Just their general insanity and goofiness.

Goofy.

Yeah.

No, he fits that to a T.

When we describe him, we just say he's an orange cat and people are generally understanding of what we go through.

Watch this incredibly pro social media management I'm about to do.

Hey, if you're listening on YouTube, why don't you drop a line in the comments about the wackiest thing your orange cat ever did?

We've bought him several cat toys that have all been a waste of money.

His favorite toy is if you go to the grocery store, just ball up the receipt and throw it.

He'll chase that around.

And if he's in the right mood, he will play fetch.

He will bring it back to you.

And you have to keep throwing it for I don't know, four or five throws, then he loses interest and walks away.

And he's a young, it sounds like he's a kind of a young guy, like a teenager cat.

Uh, he's like eight or nine.

Oh,

oh boy, he's never gonna slow down then, probably not.

All right, so Maddie feels good about Isaac.

Matt, how do you feel about Maddie?

You're in love.

How long have you been dating?

And tell me about the avocados.

Uh, we've been dating just shy of six years.

Uh, our anniversary is in September.

The avocados, yes.

So

we met while she was on her spring break.

She lives here,

went to school out of state and I lived here.

So we met playing Dungeons and Dragons at a game store.

And over the summer, her summer break, I can't remember exactly why it came up, but as a power move, she was trying to intimidate, I think it was me or just someone.

She loves avocados.

She decided to just bite into a whole avocado, like skin and all, like you might like an apple or something.

Whoa.

And that is, that is some chaotic neutral stuff right there.

It's a really good power move.

I like it.

Go ahead.

So you bit into that avocado.

Obviously, you fell immediately in love, Matt.

A little bit there.

For our last meetup of the summer before she went back to school, I was supposed to bring an avocado because she was going to do it in front of someone else.

And I was coming straight from work and I completely forgot.

So then she went back to school and she was giving me a hard time that I forgot.

Yeah, well, you blew it.

Honestly, I did.

So

this was before like Instacart and all of of that was much easier to do.

So I found a website of like an avocado farm in like California that I mailed her five pounds of avocado from California to Alabama where she went to school.

And yeah, so she got five pounds of avocados.

How were they when they arrived, Maddie?

Did you take a nice big bite out of each of them?

None of them were spoiled yet, and they took at least one full day to spoil instead of the 10 minutes that's normal.

How did it did you fall in love when

your guy Matt sent you 50 avocados or whatever it was, five pounds of avocados?

Well, of course, on top of that, though, I was in college.

So

it was just like the most grand gift as if somebody gave me like a Faberge egg or something.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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So let's get back into your cohabitation then.

Matt, when do you go to bed?

Most nights I'll go to bed between like 11 and midnight.

11 and midnight.

Matty, same question.

Like 8 p.m.

and 9 p.m.

Oh, okay.

So you're going to bed first.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

And are you a sound sleeper?

Apparently, no.

What do you mean?

I wake up so much that I kind of don't realize it sometimes.

How do you know this?

Is Is Matt taking videos of you while you sleep?

Did you walk through a plate glass window and a Lakita in?

Are you attacking?

Are you sleepwalking and attacking stray cats through the glass sliding glass door?

So Mattie has a sleeping disorder.

So she falls asleep a lot and doesn't realize she's sometimes waking up.

So we will have conversations where she'll ask, am I asleep?

And then in the morning, we'll talk about it.

And she doesn't remember that we had a conversation.

Is there a name to the sleeping disorder that you have?

Narcolepsy, essentially.

Narcolepsy, essentially.

Right.

So getting good sleep and protected sleep is probably important to you.

Fairly, yeah.

Yeah.

And Matt, are you a sound sleeper or no?

For the most part, once I'm out,

I'm fairly dead.

Yeah.

Okay, got it.

Tell me about the bedtime routine then.

You're going in first, Maddie, and you're settling down to an evening's rest.

Yes.

And then, Matt, what happens next?

Yeah, so I usually tuck Maddie in most nights.

It started on a day she was having a bad day and then she wanted to be tucked in every night.

That's adorable.

I then close our bedroom door like most of the way.

And then we have a thing that props it open because his litter box is it and food are in our bedroom, which isn't ideal.

But when we first adopted him, we had roommates at the time.

No, it would not be ideal, but we'll get into it.

We'll get into it.

But when we adopted him, we had roommates and there was no other good spot to put it.

Sure.

So it's in there near an air purifier and all of that.

So you tuck in Maddie.

Are we talking about a full, genuine, literal tuck in or just good night?

Get some forehead.

Depends on the night, but I usually cover the blanket, turn off the light, say goodnight.

Do you bring her a glass of water and an avocado?

Sometimes water.

Not an avocado.

I don't like eating in bed.

You know, after you've been together for six years, Maddie, they start to give up.

They don't bring you avocados anymore.

Okay, so you tuck in Maddie and then and then you go out and you paint some miniatures until 11 or whatever and the time for bed and you get him to bed.

Yep.

So then Isaac is usually either asleep nearby me or more often than not, asleep on our couch.

He's got

there's like folded up blanket like on the edge of the couch and he likes sleeping on top of that.

So I have to go get him to get him to bed.

And he's always very upset with me.

He makes the most like pitiful, like annoyed sounds.

Go ahead and make those sounds.

Go for it, Matt.

You're better at imitating the cat than me.

Sorry, Matt, you brought the case.

You got to make the cat noise.

I did.

Like,

he's always just like whining.

That's pretty good.

How did that sound, Matty?

Is that about right?

That was a solid five out of 10 for effort.

So, whoa, how, all right, well, let's blow, blow him out of the water then.

How what does Isaac sound like when he's a little little annoyed?

Kind of like,

yeah, that's better.

It is a little bit better, Matt.

But, you know, but Matt, I appreciate your ability to just say, yeah, that's better.

That's good.

That's a good quality you have.

Why are you disturbing this cat to bring him into the bedroom?

Because I have to close the door to make Maddie happy.

His litter box and his food are in our bedroom.

Right.

So he has to be in there.

Yes.

Because of this disastrous food and poop box arrangement that you have.

Yes.

Right.

And when the door is closed, he's not mad about being blocked out.

He's mad about being locked in.

He'll be mad anytime the door is closed.

He just hates closed doors.

Yes.

All right.

Maddie, you say in this affidavit that was presented to me that when the door is open, the vibes are off.

Tell me more.

Yeah.

So

I don't know.

I always grew up like door closed.

That meant it was my space.

I'm good to be, you know, that sense of safety, privacy.

And then also our hallway is just particularly ominous.

Did you grow up with a litter box in your bed?

In my bed.

No.

Oh, it's not in your bed?

No, thank goodness.

Yeah.

Did you grow up with any cats or pets of any kind?

Oh, yeah.

We were always a cat household.

It took a little convincing to get dogs, but we had had those too.

So very pet friendly.

How did you handle it?

I mean, surely cats and dogs wanted to come in to your bedroom all the time if the door was closed.

How did you handle it?

Everybody just had their own pet.

Mine was the cat, so the cat slept with me.

My sister had one of the dogs, so

the dog would sleep with her.

Everybody just had their little spots and they liked it.

And your cat would just sleep with you all night and not want to leave?

Not really.

There was maybe a couple nights, but you know, for the good eight years with her.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna say that that's an unusual cat, atypical cat.

Because cats are nocturnal and they also,

they also hate the status quo.

So, if something is closed, they want it open.

If something is open, they want it closed.

If something's on a counter, it should be on the floor.

If they could lift things, they would.

Or maybe they wouldn't.

I don't know.

I'm not a cat.

Point is, are you sure your cat, your childhood cat was alive?

To the best of my knowledge, yeah.

She makes really worrying breathing sounds, but that's completely normal.

We've checked.

I think it might have been one of these pet cemetery cats, Joel.

Did the cat pass away and then you buried it in an old pet cemetery?

And then it came back?

She's still kicking at 16.

What?

Still alive?

An immortal cat?

There can be only one.

What is the name of this Islander cat?

Her name is Iris.

That's a good name.

That's a great name for a cat, I would say.

I really like it.

All right.

So

you're bringing Isaac into the room and locking him in.

How long does it take before he starts making the sound?

He doesn't do it every night, but there's a whole like process to get him into our bedroom.

Sometimes he'll cooperate, but then he'll like walk a few feet, flop on the floor, you know, roll on his back and show me his belly because he just wants me to pet him as he's trying to distract me from.

you know, going to our bedroom.

Or sometimes if I'm sleepy, I just pick him up and I end up getting ever so slightly clawed.

um

not like aggressively he's just trying to get out and i get a claw in the shoulder right

and then if he if he decides he's gonna have a meltdown he'll do it within the first 10 minutes or so of being there right

or sometimes if maddie wakes up really early and then like immediately takes a shower like she doesn't like leave our bedroom uh right away so she gets out of bed uh he decides no that's time the door needs to be opened yeah and he will have the same meltdown in the morning yeah because there might be food involved.

Someone's getting out of bed.

Maybe it's time to get some food.

Oh, no, the food's in the bedroom.

Oh, God.

Keep thinking about that.

It's a fairly large bedroom.

We have an air purifier.

It doesn't smell.

Look, I wish I could say I'm not judging you, but my name, it's in the title of the show.

I mean, people like what they like.

And I respect that you're making the decisions that work for your household, but

I'll get more into this in the verdict.

I have a feeling.

Well, I don't care about when Maddie's getting up to take a shower, I'm talking about Maddie's sleep being disturbed.

Like

you wrestle the cat into the room, and within the first 10 minutes, if he's going to have a meltdown, Isaac starts yowling.

Right.

What does it sound like to you, Maddie?

Can you do the sound?

Didn't warm up, so if my voice cracks, nobody's allowed to laugh.

Okay,

don't laugh, Joel.

Stop it, Joel.

We can warm up.

Mow,

meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

It's kind of like,

and then he has this like weird growl where it's like,

that was great.

10 out of 10.

No one's laughing.

We're just happy with joy.

Thank you.

We do have a clip of

Isaac yowling.

Can we hear it and compare and contrast?

You're better at it than Isaac.

Thank you.

At least right now, which will take.

So, Matt, how long does this go on for?

You said the recording you sent was about three minutes long.

Yeah, so he'll have meltdowns for like 30 to 45 seconds and then pause for a little bit and then it'll go on and off for, I don't know, five to 10 minutes.

And then that's the end of it after 10 minutes?

He scratches at the door and he will sometimes like run around and start batting at something in our bedroom.

And then until recently, there was a trash can right near the door, just like a little, you know, like, but he would knock it over and find something to start playing with.

Yeah.

And so he'd be batting at the trash can and then you'd have to like get up and, you know, put things back or take whatever.

This seems unbearable.

This seems an unbearable way to live.

Maddie, does this wake you up?

Sometimes, but I have a weird sleeping schedule where I almost always wake up like three-ish hours after I go to bed.

Yeah.

So it usually coincides with that perfectly.

That's not particularly weird.

And for centuries, that was the human sleep pattern.

Until the advent of electricity, you would fall asleep for a while, be up awake for a number of hours, and maybe do some arts and crafts or visiting your neighbors or hug and kiss.

And then you would go back to sleep for second sleep.

You're the normal one, Maddie.

The rest of us are weird.

Just a few years too late.

Just a couple of centuries too late.

Yeah, unfortunately, yeah.

And so, how do you make this stop?

Because this can't go on all night long.

Sometimes I will like pick him up and bring him back to our bed.

He has a little bed on top of our bed that he sleeps on.

So, I'll bring him there.

Or

we've had a squirt gun that sometimes calms him down, or sometimes you just have to let him basically tire himself out.

A squirt gun that calms him down.

What is scary?

Scary?

What is this?

An opposite day cat?

A squirt gun's full of chloroform.

It's an ether squirt gun.

How does the squirt gun calm him down?

Calm down is maybe the wrong phrase, the wrong phrase.

You don't have to spray him.

He just has to know you're getting it.

And then he will kind of run away.

Right, because he's because

it's adverse training.

You are terrorizing him with the squirt gun.

He doesn't want to be squirted with water.

So when he sees it happening, he resets his behavior to avoid that.

I mean, couldn't you just open the door a crack?

Isn't that enough to let him go in and out and do his thing, Maddie?

So there's something like, I still see the door open and suddenly not safe.

Again.

Yeah, bad stuff could come in, John.

Yeah.

No, believe me, I saw Whitley Streeber's Communion in theaters and I read the book several times and I did a podcast about it with Ross and Carrie as a bonus content episode for Max Monk members.

That's another plug.

I did a good job plugging today.

You don't want to have that.

Hey, I'm with you, Maddie.

I don't want to have that door open even a little bit for a gray alien to peek around the corner like it does in that movie.

Scary.

You ever seen Babadook?

Spooky?

I did see it, and I got scared.

So you would prefer to have this cat going bananas in your room all night long

rather than figure out a way to let it get in and out on its own.

So if we owned the house, we've agreed that we would have gotten a cat or

obviously.

I mean, that makes sense.

Solves all the problems.

Right.

But we don't.

So yeah, I don't think about it for like five to 10 minutes a night.

And then it's usually over and done.

So you're okay with it.

Yeah.

Matt, you're not okay with it.

Otherwise, there would be no dispute here.

What's going on?

Well,

like a lot of younger people, we're very attached to our cat, so I want him to be happy.

Hey, I want to give him

ageism.

I'm not young, I'm old, and I'm attached to my cat.

You think you millennials are the first people to like cats?

Let me give you a little history lesson.

Check out ancient Egypt.

Back to mummies in the morning.

Mummies in the morning, mummies all night long wanted those cats buried with them.

We're young.

I will retract my statement.

I should say so, sir.

I'm going to bang my spindle of CDs at you.

There.

Order in this court.

I hold almost held you in contempt.

Go on and make your whatever case you were making.

I just wanted to be able to walk around and explore and not wake us up.

Wake up.

No.

Oh, I thought you said, I just want to be able to walk around and explore.

Oh, I want him.

Okay.

I want him to be able to walk around.

And I don't want to go through the

nightly ritual of getting him into our bedroom.

And when you're hearing this,

look, you're a young person, so you love cats.

You have an emotional connection with a cat.

So when you're hearing him go,

what's he do again, Maddie?

How would you do it?

You're warmed up now.

You can do it.

Yeah, I'm warmed up, so we're good.

How does that make you feel when you hear that noise?

That's a good imitation.

How do you feel?

I feel bad that he doesn't get to, he just wants to go check on the house and then he comes right back.

And then I'm a little annoyed that I'm either not sleeping or I'm being pulled away from whatever I'm reading at the moment.

So you're a little annoyed.

You're getting up and letting him out and then letting him back in again.

Is that what's happening?

You're the door, the door person for the bedroom?

No, we just don't let him back out.

He's he's trapped in there.

Sometimes I have to get up and like move him away from the door, like bring him back like to bed or just

pet him and call him down.

I've got an idea.

This is a great thing for a relationship, which is to keep secrets from each other.

Good.

What if Maddie falls asleep and then you just open the door and then just let him do whatever?

And then when Maddie says to you, was the door open?

And you're like, oh, my narcoleptic darling, you were just dreaming again.

Here, let me turn down the gaslight.

No, I don't want to gaslight her.

But what I will say is, this past Friday was a weird, abnormal situation for us where i went to bed first um she uh had gone out to a concert and uh she wasn't exactly sober and ready to go to bed yet so she went to bed after me and then i woke up with our door open because she didn't feel like wrangling him up and bringing him to bed okay

oh wow so

to be fair As Matt had mentioned, this was a concert I went to with a friend.

What was it?

What was the concert?

AJR.

I'm sure it's great.

So, and we don't get to go out together all that often.

So we imbibed in some lovely cocktails.

Responsibly, I'm sure.

Yeah.

And thus, the door was not my concern.

Getting in bed with my teeth brushed was my biggest concern.

Sure.

Yeah.

Look,

you're allowed to have fun one night and to fall asleep with the door open by accident.

What's the point of your argument here, Matt, that Maddie is a horrible hypocrite and deserves to be punished?

I mean,

no.

So you're mad at her because she didn't do your job, what is normally your job, which is to wrangle this cat into its nightly prison with you?

I'm not mad.

I'm just pointing out that we went a whole night with the door open.

Nothing bad happened, and the cat was happy.

It's not like gray aliens are coming in to abduct you every night.

They might be.

They're not.

No, they're not.

That's not how they operate.

Maddie, are there any other reasons that you'd like to keep the door closed?

Yes.

So Matt missed that.

Previously, when we did have roommates, as we've discussed, Isaac is a bit of a troublemaker.

And he did, in fact, previously knock over a PS3, which was not ours.

Oh, was it damaged?

And did you have to replace it?

Yes, it was our roommates PlayStation.

That's probably the most egregious thing he does.

And like right now, while we're away, he has free reign reign of the entire house.

And

you don't know what's going to happen when you get back there, Matt.

What's it like?

What's the what's what does Isaac get up to during the day?

What's what's the daytime schedule for you guys?

Uh, yeah, so he wakes up, and then he usually wants uh attention and look around the house.

And then about the time Maddie leaves for work and I start

going about my day, he usually takes a nap until close to 10 when he starts begging me for food, coming into my office, running around my feet, jumping on my desk, until I finally feed him.

So it's just the two of you home together.

Yeah, he and I spend a lot of time together.

And then after he eats, he naps until the afternoon where he starts bothering me just for attention.

Yeah, he sounds like a real, a real handful, this cat, this Isaac, the cat.

Wouldn't you say, Maddie?

I would say at least two handfuls.

Two handfuls.

But you like him?

I mean, you could get rid of him.

Oh, of course.

No, why don't you just get rid rid of him?

Then you'll solve the problem.

Yeah, you're right.

No, I think that's right.

That's the verdict.

Get rid of the cat.

Goodbye.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgkin podcast.

To be fair, our next pet is hopefully going to be a frog, which we've already decided cannot live in the same room as Isaac.

Well, sure.

Yeah.

But tell me more about your choice of frog as pet.

They're just really cool creatures.

Yeah, no, no, I love a herp, but like,

what do you, what do you, what, what, do you have a kind of frog in mind?

I mean, when I go to even an exotic pet store, and I like to walk through them, of course, I rarely see like frogs for sale.

Like, I'll see a bearded dragon and a bunch of snakes or whatever, even a floating oxalatl from time to time.

But frogs are things I feel like you find in the back pocket of kids in the 1930s, not something you find as a pet.

I was deprived of that experience.

All my friends had the like experience where they picked up frogs in the mud and dirt.

Right.

I never did.

So instead, I became attached to

the idea of frogs.

And then I got to hold one.

Yeah.

Well, you got to hold a frog?

Yes.

Just years ago.

At the frog museum.

It was alive.

The Arizona Herpetological Society.

I was going to say the Herpetological Lending Library in Arizona.

We were thinking the same thing.

That's going to make a lot of noise at night, isn't it?

Maybe.

Judge Hoshman, I had a pet frog, you know, as a child.

I loved my my pet frog.

His name was Boutros Boutros Froggy.

And he got out.

And then like a year later, we found him in the closet.

Not alive, I presume.

No,

frogs don't like closets.

Frogs don't live in closets.

This is the thing.

If you bring a frog into your house, don't you think you're going to have to

make sure that it's safe?

How are you going to keep a frog away from Isaac?

So that's what that room is going to be for.

It's going to be my craft room slash frog room.

I like it.

But that door is going to be closed?

Predictably, yes.

Well, if you can close a door, if you can close one door, you can close another.

My life closes one door, it closes another.

That's what they say.

Would it be easier if Isaac were locked out at night rather than locked in?

No.

Absolutely not.

That would make things worse.

Why?

He likes...

He dislikes all closed doors, but specifically when Matt is behind a closed door, he hates it more.

does he love matt more than he loves you maddie it pains me to say this yes yes it's a special bond between these two yes and don't get me wrong him and i have made great strides together um but he's still matt's cat so ideally matt you would like me to find in your favor and that is to say you're going to keep the door open

despite Maddie's misgivings about it so that Isaac can sleep where he wants and go through the house, correct?

That is correct.

All right.

And Maddie, you want to keep that door closed, but you also say that

you will take care of squirting the cat so Matt doesn't have to worry about it.

You're saying you're going to take on the chores that Matt currently takes on in terms of squirting the cat?

To the best of my abilities, knowing that I'm not the one that goes to bed last.

But yeah, because of how often I wake up, it doesn't phase me that much.

Right.

So I'm happy to do that.

Let me ask you a question.

I think I know the answer to, Maddie, but I have to ask anyway.

If you put in like a curtain, if you open, kept the door open, but there was a floor-to-ceiling curtain on a tension rod or something.

Just imagine the adult section of a video store.

Well, those are usually swinging saloon doors, too.

That's maybe an option, another option.

My experience is floor-to-ceiling beads.

Yeah.

What about a bead curtain, Maddie?

Would that do it for you?

Would that be enough coverage?

Bead curtain, maybe in front of like a blackout curtain, I could see.

I would just have to not look at the space between the curtain and the floor.

The curtain's not a bad idea.

My office has a curtain because if when I I was on a lot of video calls, so if I had to close the door, you would hear the cat.

So it became a curtain, like a somewhat sound blocking curtain.

So it would keep some echo down because our house is like all concrete

and the cat could then walk in and walk out.

So people would get to meet my cat on a lot of zoom calls

uh but would you be willing to try a a a blackout curtain or a similar curtain i mean i'd try it that's very nice of you gotta get over my fears somehow all right so we just gotta figure out the the greatest door arrangement for you humans and your cat and your disappearing roommate all right i gotta figure it out i'll be back in a moment with my verdict please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom Matt, how are you feeling about your chances in this case?

I'm not entirely sure.

I think the judge understands not wanting to keep the cat stuck in her room all night, but Maddie being afraid of the hallway

might be a stronger argument.

Maddie, how do you feel?

I feel like I explained myself.

better than just the vibes are off.

So that was my goal coming in here.

I'm excited to see what happens.

Maybe Isaac will be a little happier, but he'll still be himself and he'll still be loved.

So at the end of the day, whatever.

Maddie, I'm afraid of the hallway, too.

Thank you.

Now, in my case, it's because I'm from the hood.

And one time a junkie broke into my house and threatened my mom with a knife.

But

that'll do it.

But my mom also chased him out of the house and down the street.

So

my mom's awesome.

Amazing.

My amazing mom.

She seemed completely unchanged by the experience, too.

Yeah, I don't want to know what would happen if I was the person in that situation.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong we're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing yeah you don't even really know how crypto works the only nfts i'm into are naughty funny things which is what we talk about on my brother my brother and me we serve it up every monday for you if you're listening and if not we just leave it out back

goes rotten so check it out on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So, let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Hey, Judge John Hodgman, pals.

We are going out on tour.

The road court is coming your way.

I am really excited about this, John.

I just booked a lesson with my ukulele teacher.

Oh, Nico.

You're working up a new song for the show?

Yeah, two new songs, baby.

Two new songs?

All right, then I'm going to learn one new song.

Great.

And we're going to bring a whole bunch of disputes live on stage.

We're going to wear our robes.

We're going to wear our bailiff's uniform.

We're going to have a real good time.

And we're going to open up the court to something you never hear on the podcast.

audience members yelling their disputes at us and us solving them in real time.

It's the Judge John Hodgman Road Court, a wonderful wonderful mix of new cities and old faves as we go from New York to Philadelphia to Washington, D.C., Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Free show at the library.

Good old Madison, Wisconsin.

Good old St.

Paul, Minnesota, Burlington, Vermont, Portland, Maine, Turners Falls, Massachusetts, Brookline, Massachusetts, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, Los Angeles.

Ooh, you can get them all.

All the details and all the tickets are over there at maximumfund.org slash events.

You ought to go quickly because the tickets are definitely selling fast.

We also have VIP tickets this time around.

So if you want to get a free poster that we will gladly sign for you and we'll shake hands with you and meet you after the show, those are available as well.

All the information, all the ticket links at maximumfund.org slash events.

We had a great time meeting those VIPs last time around.

It was really, really nice,

really nice to meet folks.

And if you live in these cities and you're thinking of coming to the show and you've got a dispute that you'd like us to consider for live adjudication on stage, boy, oh boy, we wouldn't have a show without you go to maximumfund.org slash jjho that's where you submit all your disputes for the show but just make sure say hey hodgman i hear you're coming to your hometown of brookline massachusetts to do a show at the coolidge where you used to rip tickets as a teenager i've got a dispute with xyz or maybe even with you hey hodgman i hear you're going back to hang out with Monty Belmonte in the Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, doing a big show at the Turner's Falls Shea Theater.

I've got a dispute with Perry Von Vicious, the famous wrestler.

That would be fun.

Perry, if you've got a dispute, let me know because maybe we'll wrestle it out.

Burlington, Vermont, I haven't been there for many years.

Ann Arbor, we're excited to go because it's a free show.

All the shows are going to be terrific.

All the shows are going to be great.

And by the way, at those city winery shows that we're doing in New York and Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, we're going to have our own branded bottle of wine you can buy even.

It's fun.

It's Judge John Hodgman Road Court.

Go and get your tickets now.

Maximumfund.org slash events and go and submit your road road court disputes at maximumfund.org slash jjho

let's get back to the case

please rise as judge john hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict

so i'm very excited for you too because you're both wonderfully adorable and terrific and you seem to really like each other and you've got a house with some very hard floors and a wonderful cat and you're going to get to inhabit that house and make it your own very soon, I hope, or relatively soon, once you've moved past this roommate phase of your relationship and into this,

we have a house relation stage of your relationship.

And I'm going to say the first thing that you need to do is get that litter box out of your bedroom.

Get it out.

I mean,

and then you're going to have to do a whole like burning sage,

you know, exorcism of the spirit of memory of cat cat pooping in your place where you sleep and hug and kiss.

Got it.

I mean,

when I was when you know, my main goal, what I thought adulthood meant once I was living on my own was being able to sleep in a room that did not have a refrigerator in it.

That is to say, you know, where I couldn't hear that thing running the whole time.

You know, in a studio apartment very small in New York City, that's where I was, those are my first few apartments.

I could listen to that thing hum all night long and I'm like, the vibe is off.

You know what I mean?

I can't.

And then, and then, you know, then I took in a cat.

I rescued a cat from the street and in that same tiny one-room apartment.

And it's the first time I've ever been woken up by a smell

because the cat's litter box was just in the bedroom or, you know, in the room, you know, where I was sleeping.

And I don't know what it had been eating all that time.

But I mean, I just remember waking up, like, like the smell grabbed me by my nostrils and said, wake up, emergency.

This poop smells really, really bad.

Now, that's not necessarily what's going on with Isaac, but, you know, he deserves as much as you deserve a little bit of elbow room to do your different, your different businesses.

You know, you need your frog room.

You need your bedroom.

I, I order you to find a neutral spot or a non-intrusive spot.

And honestly, I got to say that guest bathroom is probably

the best place for it.

You know, it's just kind of probably the best, but you'll figure it out.

But it cannot, it cannot.

That's intolerable.

As is this arrangement that you, non-arrangement that you have where you and Isaac are both all kept prisoner together all night long.

where and you have to shoot water at one member of your household in order to try to get things calm calm enough to sleep.

And, but you know, when you hear, when you hear your beloved Isaac making those noises, even if you're sleeping,

I can only imagine that it is not the best, it is not the most sleep-hygienic situation to hear your cat going

or whatever it was.

The worst sound you ever want to hear.

Jesse, do you know what it is?

This is the sound.

It goes like this:

because then you know puke is coming.

That's

That's usually what's happening next.

And then just pray that you got another animal to eat the puke.

Yeah, that's why you have two cats most of the time.

YouTube comment, goodbye.

Point is that this is not, and it's not happy for Isaac either.

Isaac is a cat full of beans, a mischief cat, and all cats deserve and need to wander around and

explore and expand their territory, such as it is.

Now, Isaac can be conditioned, right, to stay out of your bedroom.

And quite honestly, I mean, and I know that he loves you, Matt, and you love him and everything else, but

I do have the feeling

rare among

pet havers that the humans do come first ultimately.

Like if you came to the determination that the best thing for your relationship, your human relationship, which is to move the cat box out and of the bedroom and close that door and just force Isaac to deal with it, just like he can't go into the frog room,

that's something that you could do over time.

He would get used to it, right?

He would be upset and he would do it outside the door, which is frankly preferable for him doing it inside the door and then having a poop while you're trying to dream.

That's no good.

It's none of this is okay.

It's got to change.

Now, I feel bad for Isaac, and I feel bad for Matt and Isaac's special relationship.

He probably will want to sleep with you, and you don't hate sleeping with him, and you both love him.

So maybe you don't want to lock him out completely.

So, where does it leave us?

Well, it leaves us with compromising on Maddie's

fears and preferences, which is not a fun thing to do.

I feel you.

I don't like seeing the hallway.

And in fact, here in Maine, it's been unseasonably hot.

And we've had to put a big fan in the doorway to the bedroom.

And I've had to have that door open in order to not, you know, suffocate with heat and sweat.

And it has been a couple of terrible nights of sleep for me because even though I'm physically much cooler and more comfortable, the mental load of knowing that that door is open and a gray alien can poke its head around at any time.

has been really hard for me to bear.

I really, really, I want you to understand that I feel for you.

Your fears are understandable.

They're human.

They're justified.

I validate them and I appreciate that Matt validates them too.

But this situation has to be changed.

And I'm going to offer you, I mean, I guess what I'm doing is ruling with many caveats in Matt's favor because you need to either kick Isaac out or you need to make that door passable for Isaac so that you can move on with your lives.

Here are my recommendations at least of things to try before you settle on a final outcome, right?

Whatever it's going to be.

If you don't want to lock Isaac out with his food and his poop box,

try a heavy curtain that he can navigate.

Try a beaded curtain, which I mean, I had one when I was a teenager and it was hot.

And

here's another thing that I would suggest:

if you have this kind of relationship or you want want to develop one with your landlord, say, hey, look,

can we install a door with a cat door?

We'll keep the real door

in a safe place and we'll put it back, but

can we get permission to put in a door with a cat door because of this reason that we have?

And that landlord might say no, but they might say yes.

This is one of the rare situations where it doesn't hurt to ask.

Most of the time, I feel it does hurt to ask.

It does hurt to ask people for favors and stuff, but this is a business relationship.

It's totally fair for you to say, how would you feel about this?

And maybe the landlord would completely understand.

It's weird how much can get done when we are willing to just talk to people about stuff and talk to them, especially like as opposed to.

text or email or or whatever like google review in any case you're going to have a lot of fun uh try the blackout curtain, try the bead curtain, try talking to your landlord, test out where your comfort level lies and see if you can make room, you know.

And if you can't, you can't.

And then you just got to sleep in separate bedrooms for the rest of your life.

This is the sound of a spindle of CDs passing for a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules out his own.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Maddie, how are you feeling?

Honestly, pretty good.

I hadn't thought of curtains.

Silly enough, even though one of our rooms already has curtains that close it.

And I'm kind of excited to try and put bead ones in and see how Isaac loses his mind.

Isaac, how are you feeling?

I mean, excuse me.

I was like, I'd like to think he's sleeping and doing great.

Well, he's supposed to be.

He's supposed to be on mic.

Matt, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling pretty good.

I also didn't think of the curtain.

I think it's a good call.

The bead curtain is definitely going to get ripped down by the cat because he's going to see little things to attack.

We definitely are going to get the beaded curtain one, though, also, just for fun and see what happens.

Well, Matt, Matty, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you, guys.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We'll have Swift Justice in just a second.

First, our thanks to Redditor Shot Tomorrow7663 7663 for naming this week's episode Claw and Doorder.

This maximum fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com or r slash maximum fun if you prefer.

That's where we ask for our title suggestions.

And if you just want to check out other people's title suggestions, always a fun list of stupid puns.

Jesse, you know what I like to do?

What's that?

Check out other people's title suggestions because they're a lot of fun.

It's a lot of fun right there at Maximum Fun.

Reddit.com.

Evidence and photos for the show are posted on our Instagram account at judgejohnhodgman, as well as on the maximum fun website on the episode page for this week's episode.

We are also on TikTok and YouTube at judgejohnhodgman pod.

Pod.

Follow us there.

That's the perfect place to comment goodbye.

John, you usually read the five-star reviews, but I've got one for this week.

Let's hear it.

It's from the Alien1234.

Oh, aliens.

You know how I feel.

From July 5th of 2024, five-star review.

Subject line,

and then the body of the review is,

I bet if they paid, I bet if we played that into a fax machine, it would print out a thing saying, good job, John and Jesse.

I bet that's true.

Okay.

Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Tyler Douglas at Podcast Studio AZ in Mesa, Arizona.

And of course, by our pal, Joel Mann at WERU in Orland, Maine.

Our social media manager is Natty Lopez, podcast edited by A.J.

McKeon.

Our video editor here in person this week, Daniel Speer.

He's wearing a cow hat, actually, now that you mention it.

No, it's a zebra hat.

It's a zebra hat.

It's a roly zebra.

Daniel Speer wears some wild outfits to the office.

I support it strongly.

Well done.

Our producer, the ever-capable Jennifer Marmer and ever chic.

Jennifer always

chic.

Yeah, Jennifer always.

I'm sorry.

Swift justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Baltinertist says,

when my wife says I want chips, I think it's perfectly reasonable for me to go get her some chips, even if we don't currently have them in the house.

I seek an injunction against her protestations when I go get her the thing she wants.

There's part of this story that's missing.

I feel like when she says, I want chips, and he just gets up, walks out of the house, grabs his car keys without a single word, and then drives to the supermarket and gets chips.

Yeah, I think that's how my parents ended up getting divorced.

Yeah, I was going to say, it seems.

And then, but it doesn't, and he also decides to just stop in briefly at the corner tavern for five hours on the way home.

This feels like a very special episode of Judge John Hashman.

Yeah.

Communication is everything.

If you, if your wife says, I want chips, you can only believe what comes out of her mouth.

She wants chips.

If you want to go get her chips at the store, because there aren't chips in the house, you have to say, I would like to go get you chips at the store.

And if she says, I don't want chips that much, I prefer your company, you have to believe that too.

Believe what people say to you and communicate, if you please.

And probably you should just have chips around all the time.

We're in the middle of summer, and I bet a lot of our audience is traveling right now.

If you're listening to us on a road trip or on your on your summer destination, I'm glad you get a little time off.

It's nice.

Thanks for taking us with you.

But what if you're not traveling by car?

What if you're flying?

Do you have, I bet you do, airport-based disputes?

Does your partner want you to get TSA pre-check and you refuse?

Does your family member cut it too close when planning arrival to the airport?

Here's one.

If you have TSA pre-check and someone in your party does not, Do you

go through security without them and leave them in your dust?

Or do you stay with them and take your shoes off?

Does your family member cut it too close when planning to arrive at the airport?

Do you want to browse the shops in the terminal and treat it like the mall?

Your travel companion just wants to sit at the gate?

Send us your airport disputes at maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

I want to hear them.

It's the site of many a dispute, let me tell you.

Judge Hodgman, you know who I bet doesn't have TSA precheck despite traveling all the time?

No, who?

Our friend and Judge John Hodgman listener, Corey Doctorow, because he doesn't believe in in giving your information to the security state.

I'm projecting here.

I'm making presumptions.

We know that Corey Doctorow changes into pajamas on overnight flights and has made a case for that being the epitome of coziness.

And I support Corey in that.

I don't know.

Corey, let us know.

Do you have TSA pre-check or not?

No, no, no.

Corey, don't let us know.

Someone who has to travel with Corey, let us know that you have a problem with the fact that Corey won't get TSA pre-check.

And so you have have to go through the TSA pre-check line and then wait on the other side of security while Corey goes through the, I've never been on an airplane before line

because he won't give his information to the security state.

You know who I want to tell us, whether or not Corey has TSA pre-check or not?

Who?

The U.S.

government.

Yeah.

Hey, if you're the U.S.

government, let us know if Corey has TSA pre-check or not.

Or just like Mark Fraunfelder from Boing Boing, and the two of them have to fly together sometimes or something like that.

Any case, send us your airport disputes at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

We're also looking for disputes for our upcoming Judge John Hodgman Road Court tour this fall and January 2025.

We're doing, well, you've heard about it already, so I won't get into it, but we do need your disputes for those different locations.

So if you have one that you want us to consider adjudicating on stage, remember, send it to me as well at maximumfund.org slash JJ H.O.

Tell us where you are.

And if you have any other dispute, I guess just throw it away, right, Jesse?

We only want airport disputes and road court disputes, right?

Is that correct?

We'll take any dispute and we're grateful for them.

We, because we use them in our membo mailbags, we use them here in live cases on the show.

We use them when we're clearing the docket.

We use them on social media.

We love to hear from you.

So go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO and submit that dispute, no matter how big or small.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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