Van Freaks Roadshow in Madison

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bale of Jesse Thorne here with Judge John Hodgman.

This week's episode was recorded live at the beautiful and strangely goes around a corner majestic theater in Madison, Wisconsin.

Oh, well,

this was a great time.

There is pizza.

There is a very intense dispute about neighborhoods in Madison, and we don't know neighborhoods in Madison.

So our understanding will become your understanding.

We're lucky we got out of there alive, basically.

Yeah, it was incredible.

And we got to see Rob Thomas, not that Rob Thomas, the Rob Thomas from the Judge John Hodgman podcast, the guy who wears minion sleep shorts to go outside and check his mailbox.

And previously, walk his dog, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly.

Absolutely.

We had a great time at the Majestic Theater in Madison.

The show is a blast.

Let's go to the stage at the Majestic in Madison, Wisconsin.

Madison, Wisconsin, you came to us seeking justice, and we're here to deliver it at the Majestic Theater.

The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Let us bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Matt and Jess.

Tonight's case, Anti-Chrust Law.

Matt Matt brings the case against his wife, Jess.

He loves to make all kinds of pizza, including his beloved Detroit style.

Jess says, that's not pizza.

It's only pizza if it's round.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

The hogosau.

Oh, Jesus, not missing you.

If you live it up, you live in this.

This is in every stop on the tour.

So she left mom to you.

She's been doing this

just like a boy.

We have like 10 more tour dates.

With her charcoal eyes and Monroe Hill.

She went and took that California trip.

I might have to quit.

The moon was cold, her hair's like wind.

Said, don't look bad, just come on, Jim.

Oh, you gotta hold on, hold on,

You got to hold on.

Take my hand.

I'm standing right here.

You got to hold on.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Sort of brought it on myself.

Matt, Jess, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he believes pizza should be spherical?

Yes.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Matt and Jesse, you may be seated.

For an immediate summary, judgment in one of your favorites, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered the courtroom.

It sounded like the Badger fight song.

The Badger fight song.

Great guess.

I love it.

I'm putting it in.

John, it would be legitimately amazing if he sang the Wisconsin Badgers fight song.

Matt, what is your guess?

That sounded like it could be some sort of deep cut by Mark Cohn.

Deep cut?

That's so deep I don't even know what you're talking about.

Yeah.

Not one of those famous Mark Cohen smash hits.

No.

All guesses are wrong.

The answer is

it was a song called Hold On by Tom Waits.

This entire tour I'm only singing Tom Waits songs as the cultural references.

A little clue to those listening down the road or maybe going to be up here on stage later.

And for two reasons.

One, I love Tom Waits and two, it drives Jesse bananas.

Absolutely nuts.

That was hold on as performed by Tom Waits in his album Mule Variations, but technically, I was a little wink to a recent, a beautiful cover of that song by the artist Madison Cunningham.

Get it?

Yeah.

But now we have to hear your dumb case.

So listen.

I liked that that reply really rode the line between

and

Matt, Matt and Jess, before we get going, I am told that you were married right here on stage at the majestic theater approximately 364 days ago.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

So would that mean...

Yeah.

So would that mean that tomorrow is your first anniversary?

That's right.

And that is, I believe that's the paper anniversary.

That's the paper anniversary.

Right.

Oh, Jesse, you know,

we should have gotten them a gift.

I'm really sorry.

Well, I some paper towels here.

What's that?

I got them a gift.

Oh, you did, Jesse?

Yeah.

Oh, that's great.

I didn't realize.

I just want to wish Matt and Jess a happy first anniversary.

I went down to the Friends of the Madison Public Library and I got you your long erotic weekend.

Four days of passion for a lifetime of magnificent sex.

By Lana Holstein, MD, and David Taylor, MD.

You know, day one, you and your lover rekindle that spark, learning to tune into each other's sexual energy.

Oh boy.

Day two, he pleases her and unleashes her inner sex goddess.

Day three, she returns the favor for her warrior lover and pleases him as he's never been pleased before.

Day four, the two of you become one in a mind-altering, soul-shattering, ecstatic union that rocks your world forever.

With your long erotic weekend, you're not in sexual Dolesville anymore.

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This is sex like you've never had before.

Your long erotic weekend.

4 p.m.

show.

I'll remind Jesse, 4 p.m.

show.

Children in the audience.

Happy anniversary.

I'm sure you're all planning out your Halloween costume, which is Sexy Bailiff.

Thank you.

All right, Jess and Matt, congratulations, and I hope you enjoyed the book.

Thank you very much.

But you're no longer in sexual Dullesville.

You're in the court of Judge John Hodgman.

Who seeks justice in this, my fake court of internet law?

I do, Your Honor.

And you would be Matt.

What is the nature of your complaint?

It was revealed to me approximately one year ago that.

On your wedding night?

I can't wait to hear the rest of this sentence.

I discovered

through the telling of an anecdote that Jess does not believe that non-circular pizzas are legitimately pizzas.

And furthermore, that she will not eat one or permit one to be made in our home.

Wow.

Jess, what is your problem with non-circularized?

Wait, hold on, hold on.

We're ahead of ourselves.

What was the anecdote that revealed this?

So this was a story from several years ago about a time when I was making a hamburger, but I did not have any hamburger buns.

So I used a

personal-sized frozen pizza in the shape of a square, cut that in half, and that became buns.

I think you just got elected mayor of Madison.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

Jess, what's it like to be married to an insane genius?

You know, it's only been a year.

It's going to be a long life.

Yeah.

Jess, what is your so, Jess, you looked at this and you're like, that's not only not hamburger buns, that's not even pizza because it's square.

That's correct.

And what is your issue with non-circular pizza?

I personally feel that any pizza that is not in the shape of a circle

is unworthy of the name of pizza.

Wow.

There are a lot of non-circle pizzas in life, you know.

Well, you know, you can avoid them pretty easily.

Okay, fair enough.

Matt, what is a Detroit-style pizza for those who do not know?

So, a Detroit-style pizza is traditionally much thicker.

It will have a thicker dough.

It's a pan pizza.

It's a pan pizza, as they say.

A thick layer of cheese on top.

And

the signature of the Detroit style is a little on the nose out there Wisconsin

the the Detroit style is known for its crispy edges where the cheese browns along the edge of the pan and sort of becomes one with the golden edge of the crust and are those edges arcs or lines sir you know the answer why are you thinking those they are lines they are lines because it is a what-shaped pizza a square or square or a rectangle.

I'm having a difficulty picturing this.

Do we have any evidence that we can bring forward?

Some square, Detroit-style, arguably pizza.

Oh, look at that.

I believe we do.

Who made this pizza, Matt?

I did.

Fantastic, because you had some hamburgers lying around and you need some.

So this looks like a beautiful.

Would you, I know that the pizza that you're holding, Jess, fills you with complete disgust.

And she's actually kind of looks like she's gonna throw up.

Angle it forward a little bit so the people at home can see it's a beautiful looking Detroit style pizza.

I'll take that off your hands.

You can use that paper towel to disinfect yourself from this horrible contagion.

Jess you want to take a square?

Yeah you bet I do.

Yeah I know.

This looks really good.

That is a thick Detroit pizza right there.

Thick Detroit pizza for a thick San Francisco bailiff.

It has pepperonis on it, is that right?

And these pepperonis are also thick.

Well done, double thick.

Would you like a square?

Yeah,

take one.

Jess, may I offer you a square?

I'd like to hold off until your verdict, if that would be all right.

Oh, that's true, because if I rule this a pizza, then you might have to eat it.

Okay.

Yes.

Everyone loves eating on mic, so I'll even have a bite.

This does remind me a little bit of what someone in line in front of me at the farmer's market here in Madison this morning called fascia bread.

It does have some similarities to a fashasha or a focaccia, as you might say.

Matt, I'll hold on to that if you don't want to eat it on mine.

It's really delicious, though.

I'll just get it closer to Jess for Matt.

Jess, if this isn't pizza, what is it?

It's too thick bread with some cheese and sauce

and some toppings.

It's too thick bread with some cheese and sauce and some toppings.

And the bread isn't baked when you put it in the pan, right?

It's dough, right?

The dough is raw when it goes to the bottom.

It's not like you're making a French bread pizza

after school or something like that.

This is a real dough that you made from scratch.

And that probably took some time and care.

Absolutely.

And yet your wife wants nothing to do with it.

I understand.

Unfortunately.

My old friend Dan Grayson,

who created the theme music for The Sound of Young America and helped us with this show,

he calls it cheesy sauce bread.

He says there's pizza and cheesy sauce bread.

What do you think about that, Jess?

Is that whole water?

That really rings true in my heart.

Yeah, I like that definition.

I see.

What kind of pizza did you grow up with?

Where did you grow up, and what's your pizza legacy?

Yeah, so

I grew up in the Chicago suburbs.

There is no Chicago pizza.

Oh, very famous for its very thin pizzas.

Traditional thin.

Well, I do love deep dish.

I love, you know, somebody wooed for the lots of cheese.

I agree, lots of cheese on pizza is great.

But Chicago also has all kinds of tavern style, thin crust, and also, I don't know exactly the terminology for it, but what I, you know, like a normal pan pizza that's like circular, but like a

medium thickness crust.

Uh-huh.

And so that was the pizza I grew up on, all those three kinds.

We had pizza a lot growing up, but I was never, ever exposed to non-circular styles of pizza

until I got to college.

And then what happened?

And then

the woke brigade marched in

with their pizza diversity training.

You know, if only, if only.

Somebody, you know, after a night out had ordered Jets pizza.

All right, a chain that I've, a local chain that I've never heard of.

A local chain that specializes in Detroit-style cheesy bread with sauce.

Right.

And this was, again, the first time I had ever even seen in person a pizza that was not circular.

And to describe it, you know, it has a lot of the same characteristics theoretically as what you've described as Detroit-style pizza, but the crust was like...

I mean, it was like four inches thick.

There was a layer of not olive oil or any good kind of grease, but like the really bad, like

bottom of the fryer restaurant grease, you know,

and then not enough to see it.

It was just, it was terrible.

It was, it was a terrible introduction to non-circular pizza.

And I have to say that I have in, you know, almost 20 years since, never experienced a square pizza that was worth ever wanting to eat again.

Wow.

And you had never seen a square pizza till you went to college?

I mean,

I knew that they they existed.

Were you part of a religious order of some kind?

I was not.

I mean, I grew up Catholic, but yeah.

You've heard of Sicilian pizza, right?

I have heard of Sicilian pizza.

Yeah, there's some Catholics there.

Right.

That is true.

I knew that they existed.

I had never been expected to eat it before in my life, and I was.

soundly disappointed.

When was the first time, Matt, that you tried to make Detroit-style pizza for Jess?

um so this conversation actually took place before i had considered making detroit style pizza uh for

i'll be very honest yes that's part of it

because in my notes here i'm told like oh you have a very deep connection to detroit style pizza it goes back in your history you want to reconnect with that history but mostly you just want to make your wife annoyed

You took it as a marriage night dare, and you were going to show her.

You got up out of bed immediately and started searching for recipes.

Thickest possible square pizza.

This is less a Detroit-style pizza, more of an F-Me, F-U-style pizza.

So I am originally from a suburb of Detroit.

Okay.

And some of my earliest pizza memories are of

square, thick pizzas,

like we demonstrated.

And

I love making pizza.

I love cooking.

I love cooking for my wife.

And I would love to expand my repertoire and

bring that style of pizza into our rotation at home.

But you make other kinds of pizza as well, right?

I do.

Do you make round style?

I make that style as well.

In a pan, or we have one of those, right?

Let's take a look at the round style.

Oh, that's a beautiful round pizza that everyone would agree is pizza.

Thank you.

Yeah, Jess is not only happy to hold it, but is reaching for it.

And she's going to eat some loudly on microphone, I trust.

What do we have on this one?

It looks like some olives and some.

This one is apple dates.

Never mind.

Jess, give that back.

Give that back.

Spit out.

Spit it out, please.

Spit it out.

Thank you.

Wow.

Let's go back to the hamburger with pizza bun.

Is he okay, Jess?

Apple and figs.

Well, that's a thing.

People do that, I suppose.

Your objection is too much bread, meanwhile.

Dot, dot, dot.

Yeah, exactly.

Jess, let me ask you, we'll do a quick quiz, or, you know, give me your opinion on what is or is not pizza.

And if you agree with Jess, applaud.

And if you disagree with Jess,

boo.

We've talked about some of these already.

Sicilian style pizza.

No.

Wow.

Chicago deep dish pizza.

Yes.

Wow.

Some disagree.

Controversial.

Controversial.

In Chicago, they won't let a pizza alone.

Like, they won't let it just be pizza.

They're cooking pizza in bowls anyway.

Chicago, you mentioned it, Chicago tavern cut pizza.

Yes.

Aha!

And yet, when it is tavern cut, what is the shape of the piece?

It's square.

Yes.

What does it become then?

Non-pizza?

It started as a circle.

It originated as a circle and it's cut into squares or trapezoids, whatever you like.

Totally fine.

Sure.

New Haven-style white clam pizza.

What shape is it?

Oblong.

No right angles.

Clams.

I'll allow it.

Oh, thank you.

Wow.

You don't know who you're dealing with, do you?

White clam pizza is the best pizza.

That's a fact.

That's what they teach in the Protestant religion.

I'm also a Catholic.

Pizza on a bagel.

No.

But you can have it anytime.

You should have used that for your hamburger.

I do.

Don't.

If you put your hamburger on a bagel, not only is it not a sandwich, it's not a hamburger.

No.

That's true.

So, Matt, you grew up in the suburb of Detroit.

You claim to have some deep connection to this pizza.

But you like round pizza too.

Why don't you just make round pizza for your wonderful bride?

I do do make round pizza for my bride.

Yeah, but why do you try to force your square pizza on her?

Because I think it has qualities to offer that a circular pizza doesn't have.

Go on.

The shape is one thing.

The shape.

The bubbly cheesiness that crisps up around the edges, the crispy dough, the tall sides.

Yeah.

It's just a different experience than the circular pizza.

And you have fun making it?

I had tremendous fun making it.

Jess, if I were to rule in your favor, it says here, you'd like me to order that Matt is free to make and eat what he wants, but Detroit-style cannot be the only pizza option offered.

In other words, one square, one round.

Yes, please.

That seems eminently fair.

What's wrong with that, Matt?

This is the first time hearing of that.

Okay, Matt, if I were to rule in your favor, it says that it should rule that you should be able to make Detroit-style pizza, serve it for dinner, and that Jess has to acknowledge that it is pizza.

I request that

she allow it to be made in the house.

Ideally, she would consume it, but yes, I would like to be allowed to make

non-circular pizzas in my own home.

Well, she's saying you can, you just have to keep it to yourself.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's like a side deal that you have with yourself.

Personal care, we call call it, in Chicago.

I could consider that as a compromise, but I think

the work of making two kinds of pizza is maybe a little bit unreasonable.

Jess, any closing arguments?

I would say if this was about a topping, like a mushroom or something.

What's your favorite topping for pizza?

Oh, pepperoni.

Yeah.

Which is why he put the pepperoni on the Detroit-style pizza.

Try to trick me.

That's why he made that gross round pizza and put pepperonis on the square one to try to sway you?

Oh, Matt.

Matt, what's your favorite topping?

Quince?

Lately, I liked Italian sausage and gardenera.

Oh, very Chicago.

That's pretty good.

Jess, I have a question for you.

Matt said he loves to cook.

Is he the kind of cooking husband who cooks most of the food in the house?

Or is he the kind of cooking husband who likes to do elaborate cooking projects once a month and then provide them with gray diploma.

And also, they're always either pizza or barbecue.

He is the former.

He is the person doing most of the cooking in the household, which I deeply, deeply appreciate.

And I make that clear all the time, especially when he makes delicious circular pizzas.

I am more the one that will do the elaborate once a month every dish in the kitchen, and then it's either pizza or barbecue.

Yeah.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I will retire to my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Matt, how are you feeling about your chances in this case?

I feel pretty good.

I think I've presented a solid case.

And

I trust that whatever the judge decides will be reasonable and fair.

Jess, did you think that by offering to eat 50% square pizza, you could duck the issue of whether square pizza is actually itself pizza?

I'm too stubborn for that.

I did not think that.

How do you feel about your chances?

I feel that my chances are dwindling as time goes on.

Well, let's be honest, all of our chances are dwindling as time goes on.

It's just something we have to come to terms with.

You can talk to your priest about it.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about this when we come back in just a moment.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org, and they are all your favorites.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

First of all, I have to commend Matt for his ingenuity in putting a burger on two pieces of of frozen pizza.

That's neither pizza nor a hamburger nor a sandwich.

It's an entirely new thing that you should be selling out of a truck somewhere.

And then you'll be celebrating your second anniversary with Guy Fieti.

When I was young, I had an entrepreneurial spirit myself.

I decided that I was going to sell English muffin pizzas out of the first floor window of our home in suburban Brookline, Massachusetts.

I came to this decision because I had noticed in the refrigerator we had English muffins, tomato sauce, and mozzarella cheese, and so therefore my costs were zero.

This was going to be a pure profit operation for me.

I was going to rake it in, and I would become famous in the neighborhood, the only thing I cared about.

I didn't care about pizza.

I would become famous in the neighborhood for being the kid who sells English muffin pizzas out of the first floor window of his parents' home.

We put up posters all around.

It was a very good price point, 25 cents.

I was making the English muffin pizzas in the toaster oven.

I could barely keep up with supply because people were walking across our lawn to our patio and ordering the pizzas.

And I started to realize as I was selling them, like,

well,

hotcakes,

which probably I should have sold,

that none of these people were strangers to me.

They were all friends of my parents.

And slowly it dawned on me that these were not just citizens of Brookline walking around going, hmm, 25 cents for an English muffin pizza, good deal.

I'll walk across private property to get it.

These are people who were sent to my house by my parents.

to buy the pizza.

And that's when I realized there is such a thing as a dishonest day's work.

I was a Nepo baby English muffin pizza magnate.

I felt truly ashamed of myself.

And only then did I realize this isn't pizza at all.

There are things that are not pizza.

And I would agree that Fokasha is not pizza.

Fashasha.

I forgot how they say it in Wisconsin.

Beyond Wisconsin-style fashasha, there is also Altoona pizza, which is in Altoona, Pennsylvania, which is square pizza with American cheese on it.

There is St.

Louis-style pizza,

okay, which

the entire Provelle family is in the house,

which is essentially a saltine cracker with Provelle processed cheese on it, an acquired taste.

Are these things pizza, even though they are an affront to the senses?

That is the question.

And I have to say, yes, as long as it is a flatbread that you are cooking with sauce and toppings on it, as long as it is served in a bar, as long as it is shared in a college dorm room, for example, or after hours in a tavern, as long as it fits most, and especially if it has clams on it, it's a delicious pizza.

Pizza is a state of mind as much as it is a food way, and that state of mind is usually high or drunk.

Now, this is a four o'clock in the afternoon show.

I am dead sober.

Well, what time is it actually?

How far after four is it?

4.40.

4.40.

Okay.

I am dead sober, and yet I still enjoy this very, very thick and fluffy Detroit-style pizza that you made, Matt.

I will not stop you from eating it.

I will not stop you from enjoying it.

I will not stop you from making it.

I will not stop you from calling it pizza.

But in the interest of your marriage and such that it goes on for a long time, keep it away from your wife.

It's really not her thing.

It's really not her thing.

You should make it for yourself, make it for your friends who come over,

and not try to force it on her.

Because after all, it's set a law in this court that people like what they like.

Keep this away from your wife.

This is personal for you.

One thing about a marriage, and I've been in one for a long time, is that you have to maintain separate lives, as well as the lives that you have entwined together.

Your separate interests, your hobbies, and your pursuits, and so forth.

This is one of them.

That said, of course, it's pizza.

It's Detroit-style pizza.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman will set aside.

Matt, Jess, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case.

You've got solid sound coming right up, right?

That's right.

June 28th through the 30th, it's the solid sound festival in North Adams, Massachusetts.

It's Wilco, the bands,

every other year festival of music, arts, and delights, the best music festival that you can find in a former electronic parts factory in western Massachusetts.

It's a total delight.

And not only are you going to get to see Wilco play two nights in a row, and not only are you going to get to see

incredible musicians like Nick Lowe and Young Fresh Fellows, the band Wednesday,

all of your various Wilco side projects, but an incredible comedy stage.

co-hosted by me and your friend Gene Gray, featuring the comedic stylings of Dave Hill, Todd Barry, Sidney Washington, Brittany Carney, and the incredible native of Massachusetts, semi-native of Massachusetts himself, Eugene Merman.

All there, Solid Sound Festival.

Go to solidsoundfestival.com for tickets to the whole thing or a single day ticket or whatever you want to do.

It would be so much fun to see Judge John Hodgman listeners there.

I totally guarantee that you will see Monty Belmonte around there too, because he is a big part of the festival as well.

Jesse, what do you have going on?

I have some really great guests on Bullseye.

A lot of Judge John Hodgman listeners probably already know that I host the NPR show Bullseye with Jesse Thorne.

It's a long-form interview show with people from the world of arts and culture.

This week, I have Zucker Abram Zucker,

the directors and writers of the airplane, of Airplane, of the Naked Gun movies, of Police Squad, of Top Secret, some of the scary scary movies,

some of the like literal, funniest things that have ever existed in show business.

They are the sweetest, most hilarious dudes.

John, you know, they built themselves a theater in Madison, Wisconsin to start their careers.

Then, when they moved to LA, they took it apart, put it in a truck, drove it to LA, and rebuilt it into a rehab center.

And yeah, like a halfway house.

And

then

they named their show,

they performed their My Nose.

And the reason is that they knew that if they named it My Nose, the theater listing in the Los Angeles Times would say, My nose runs continuously.

Nice.

Also, one of them had a license plate.

He drove a Chevy, and he had a license plate that said Bob's MG.

And then people would drive up next to him and, you know, shout to him, hey, that's not an MG.

And he'd say, I'm not Bob.

And then he'd peel out.

Anyway, they're so funny.

And then, and then next week on the show, oh man, just two of my all-time favorites.

The absolute incredible genius, Miranda July, who has a beautiful and hilarious novel.

I feel like being super funny is an underrated part of Miranda July's Ooeu.

But the artist, novelist, filmmaker Miranda July, who has a hilarious novel coming out called All Fours.

And then one of my favorite pals in all of comedy, like a total friend hero, level one, Tig Notaro,

who is just

Tig just owns.

And it's a really

good, deep conversation with both of those brilliant artists.

So yeah, go subscribe to Bullseye and don't miss these great episodes, please.

We can use all the listeners that we can get.

And if you listen to them and you like them, please recommend them to somebody.

You know what I say about Tig Notaro?

What's that?

Tip top.

Tip top tig.

Tig rules.

Tig is the best.

Anytime you're thinking a good thought about Tig Notaro and you're like,

you shouldn't meet your heroes, or like, oh, those shall only disappoint me or whatever.

Nah, tig rules.

Tig rules.

Yeah, no reservations.

Okay.

Let's get back to the show.

Jesse Thorne, I believe we have another case to hear, hear, right?

Yeah,

we do.

We do have a question, though.

What's that?

I can't help but notice that next to our pizza, which it makes perfect sense to have pizza on stage during a podcast recording.

Why is there a mailbox here?

Oh, you know, I don't know.

This was here when we came in.

I presume it's part of the theater thing, maybe a union thing.

I asked if we could move it.

They said no, they couldn't.

And so I just said, okay, we'll just

have the mailbox on stage.

I don't know why there would be a mailbox on stage.

Wait a minute.

Hold on a minute.

I'd recognize those minions shorts anywhere, Judge Hodgman.

What are you doing?

Checking your mail.

What?

Is that Rob Thomas from the Capitol Times?

It's Rob Thomas from the Valentine.

We invited Rob on the show and we asked him, did you bring your minion shorts?

And he said, I brought a number of options.

Yeah, we went minion shorts.

Hello, Madison.

So Rob

writes features for the Capitol Times.

Wrote a very nice article about us in the newspaper, which was very kind of you.

Also, we mentioned that we ruled against you with extreme prejudice

earlier in the podcast.

And here you are again.

And you're still wearing those minion shorts.

Do you still go out and wear them, even though I told you not to?

No, that's why I get my mail delivered here because I'm not allowed to go out to the mailbox at home.

Right.

And is there a thing as such a thing as Madison pizza or Wisconsin-style pizza?

So,

whatever that thing Matt made, that was the pizza, the turducken pizza burger, like that is, I almost missed my cue because I've been thinking about that thing the whole time.

My second choice would be probably the mac and cheese pizza at Ian's pizza.

Mac and cheese pizza.

No sauce, just like cheese and bread and cheese and, you know.

And Mac at some point.

And Mac, right?

Okay, good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So wait, there's no sauce on the mac and cheese pizza?

I don't think so.

And there's layers upon layers?

No, it's just a lot of it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I love it.

You know what I was thinking about Chicago style pizza, the deep dish pizza?

No.

I was thinking it is proof that in the Midwest, anything can be turned into a casserole.

That's true.

That's true.

You have a favorite casserole, Rob?

Do people put tater tots on top of casserole here or no?

Oh, heck yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's okay.

You can say hell yeah in front of the child.

Is that all right?

Yeah, you just went to the bar.

Sorry.

How'd it go?

Thumbs up, says the child.

Yeah, that's an important thing to remember, right?

Always tip your bartenders.

and start planting those seeds early for exactly 2025 2035 yeah always tip your bartenders always tater tot your casserole so we do have another case to hear right we do that means i'm gonna have to go back to my chambers i'm afraid yeah i think it is but rob will you stick around and weigh in with some madison style wisdom i would love to judge other people's choices right now wonderful

You deserve to.

Thank you.

I'll go away now.

Please welcome to the stage Joe and Allison.

Our case, Badgering the Witness.

Joe brings the case against his friend Allison.

Joe claims to live on the east side of Madison,

but whenever he mentions this, Allison tells him and everyone listening that he's wrong.

She says he lives on the north side.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

It's the most emotionally intense response we've ever gotten to.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Well, the smart money's on Harlem, and the moon is in the street, and the shadow boys are breaking all the laws.

And you're east of Eastside, Madison, and the wind is making speeches, and the rain sounds like a round of applause.

Well, Napoleon is weeping.

Wow.

See, there's always a second part.

This invisible fiancé is in the mirror,

and the band is going home.

It's raining hammers, it's raining nails.

It's true, there's nothing left for him down here.

And it's time,

time,

And it's time,

time,

time.

Don't touch me in these circumstances.

It's time,

time,

time that you love.

And it's time,

time.

Let's go some time.

Billet, Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

What do you think Tom Waits ate when he was 17 that caused this?

I think he probably took $20 to the bar and said, I'll see you in 12 years.

Joe Allison, please rise, raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that it will probably only encourage him to do that in every other city on our entire tour?

Yes.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

It's truly one of my favorite songs, and I did not do it justice.

But in any case, Joe and Allison, you may be seated for immediate summary judgment.

One of your favorites.

Can I either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

It's probably going to be pretty easy.

Allison, you guess first.

Okay.

I'm going to guess a Tom Waits cover

of the second verse of the theme song to the Jeffersons.

I'm really searching hard for the lyrics to that song.

Moving on up to

Lisa.

But that's the chorus, not the verse.

I was trying to think of the verses.

I think Joe might get this one because he stole Tom Waite's hat.

Yeah, Joe's wearing a little pork pie hat.

Can you guess?

If it was the last one, I would have known because that song was on my daughter's like bedtime playlist?

But really, yeah.

What are you trying to do to her?

Your daughter's bedtime playlist.

Since birth, yeah.

Oh, wowie, Sally.

You were concerned she'd grow up to live somewhere other than a flop house?

She loves the low, growly voice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm going to take another song from our playlist that I'm sure you've previewed.

So I'm going to say Bob Dylan, Froggy Went to Courten.

Bob Dylan, Froggy went to Corton.

Yeah.

Remember how we were saying they're all Tom Waits songs

on the tour?

You want to give another guess or is that?

All right, it's fine.

All guesses are wrong.

Guess what it was called?

Time.

Time by Tom Waits on the Rain Dogs album.

My favorite Tom Waits song.

And I mean it, Jesse.

But alas, now we must hear your case.

So who seeks justice in my fake court?

I do.

And you and you are Joe, is that right?

That's correct.

Now, Joe, you say that you live in East Madison.

Actually, I say I live on the East Side of Madison.

On the East Side?

You know what?

I don't care.

Because I want to know about your Mitsubishi Delicates.

Because I heard a little rumor.

You know, this is called the Van Freaks Road Show.

We've named the tour after Jesse and my mutual love for the Antiques Road Show and the Mitsubishi Delica Japanese Market-only Adventure Van, which is a very cool car.

And I heard it on fairly good authority that you have one and you may have driven it here.

Yeah, it's sitting out back.

It's sitting out back.

Do we have a photo of it?

Oh,

wow.

So, Allison, obviously I'm incredibly biased to Joe.

He's got Tom Waits on his daughter's playlist.

Even though your guess and joke was really, really good, he brought a delica to the show.

He brought Adelica

to the podcast fight, right?

That's pretty heavy duty.

Why is he wrong?

You got to really convince me.

Why is he wrong when he says he's from the east side of Madison?

Because he's from the north side of Madison.

What's the difference?

What are we talking about?

What makes Joe's neighborhood north side rather than east side?

So, as you stated earlier, Madison is an isthmus.

Yes.

Yes, we have a lake to the north, a lake to the south, and central Madison is right in between.

Yes, let's take a look at a map.

For those of you who may not live here, that's a really nice map.

That's a cool isthmus.

I can really see the two

lakes there.

Yes, and if you notice the red dot to the northern part of the map,

that would be where Joe's house is.

Oh, good.

Let's dots him.

Can we get cross streets up there?

Yes, I made an inset that shows one block from his house is North Street.

Oh, is that the traditional debarcation line of

Northside?

So to give a little description, Madison is an isthmus, like I said.

It is bisected by Washington Avenue.

And once you are out of central Madison, if you are north of Washington Avenue, you live on the North Side.

Rob,

obviously,

there's a lot of high dudgeon here around this.

What am I missing?

What is the cultural context of Northside versus Eastside?

This is the most Madison case I've ever heard of in my entire life.

In Madison, you can drive 10 minutes to another part of town, and yet people are so tribal about whether they're from the Northside or from the East Side.

And don't get me started on the Westsiders.

So it is very important for you to know where you're from and where, you know, what is the connotation of the east side?

Is that a cool neighborhood?

Is that a

east side?

Like, is it the kind of place where

guys would have beards and glasses and cool little hats and little

short-sleeved shirts and they put tom weights on their dog's playlist kind of place?

That's more Northside, I think.

Oh, interesting.

Eastside is more...

If you find an aging hippie in Madison, he has an Eastside Eastside address for sure.

Oh, all right.

Yeah.

Interesting.

How do you, Allison, does that describe it, would you say?

Well, I feel like the East Side does have a reputation for being progressive.

It's kind of the hip area, I would say.

And what does the North Side have a reputation for?

I love the North Side.

I don't know if the North Side has an aspiration.

As long as Joe stays there, you love the North Side.

The North Side is lucky to have Joe.

Joe's a wonderful human being who lives on the North Side.

They are lucky to have him.

The north side is up and coming.

It's great.

It has a lot of new restaurants.

It's lovely.

Come on.

You're trying to consign him to this place.

Why is it important that Joe recognize he's not on the east side?

Does Northside have a character of its own aside from up and coming and lovely and the place where Joe lives?

Joe, do you want to share?

Joe, tell me why it's important to you, at least theoretically, to live on the east side.

I mean, the name of my neighborhood is Emerson East.

So, I mean,

I just go by what I'm told my neighborhood is.

So it's a vibe for sure.

Okay, go on.

Tell me about it.

It's a vibe.

Lots of dogs, neighborhood cats.

So just the presence of pets.

But a lot of pets.

An excessive amount of pets.

Would you agree that, Allison, where do you live?

On the near east side.

Hold on, John.

I got to dive into this pet thing.

Okay.

I'll eat a pepperoni.

I got to tell you, Joe, a lot of dogs, a lot of cats is not a vibe.

A vibe is a lot of iguanas on guys' shoulders.

Now, you just said that you were on the near east side, and some people want bananas.

How many east sides are there?

There's the near east side.

There's the far east side.

Yeah.

There's the sub-east side.

No, no, no.

There's the little east side.

No?

You got near east and you got east.

You got near east and you got east.

What's the difference between those two?

Near east is still really on isthmus proper, so closer to downtown.

Both of these neighborhoods are off isthmus.

Oh, no, I'm on the isthmus.

You're on the isthmus because near east, I can't say this word anymore because I just ate a piece of pizza by accident.

I'm just 10 blocks away from where we are now.

You're just 10.

Okay, where are we now?

We're central.

We're right downtown.

Central.

Okay, got it.

Joe, you mentioned that there are cats and dogs

where you live, thus making it the east side.

There's more.

There's more.

I can give you more.

I do believe that we have some pet-related evidence that was sent in just for funsies.

Hold up, for real?

Yes, for real.

You may have to get to the foot of the stage to be able to see it properly.

Tell us about the pet we are about to see.

This is my cat, Roger, who lives on the near east side with me.

Oh, you're.

Stop, what's he doing?

Let the record show that Jesse Thorne is now sitting in the front row laughing his

face off and he wants to know what is Roger doing.

Chilling on the near east side.

Chilling on the Near East side.

Come back, I need my bailiff back.

And this is more evidence that you live on the Near East side, because obviously cats live there.

Jesse, I hate to say it, but I think we need to advance the slide or else we won't be able to pay attention to anything.

Do you see he's going, oh.

He's just chilling on the Near East, you know.

Okay, I've got to advance the slide.

You know how Roger does it.

Joe, do you have a dog or a cat?

I do.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I have a cat.

Where's the photo?

Forget it.

That's a real Northside move, Joe.

If you were Eastside, you would totally be sending in a slide five weeks in advance, like Allison did.

Good job, Allison.

Allison,

who's lived in Madison longer, you or Joe?

I have.

You have.

By how long?

I have lived here since 2001.

Oh,

that's very good.

And Joe, are you a native of Madisonian?

No.

No.

When did you move here?

I moved here in 2012.

Oh, okay.

Still a long time, but still pretty Northside come lately, I would say.

When I keep calling you Northside Joe,

How does that make you feel?

It infuriates me.

Go on.

Search those feelings.

I still don't understand why any of this matters.

I mean, I understand that neighborhoods matter, but I don't understand the context of the neighborhoods.

So only in the east side,

when after I raked all my leaves to the front yard, would my neighbor take my leaves from my front yard and dump them in their own backyard?

That is an east side move.

And you're saying that's happening up there on East North Street or wherever you live.

Yes, yes.

All right.

What does that mean?

Forget it, Jesse.

It's a Northside thing.

Right?

Why are people stealing leaves?

What kind of weird set-tripping is going on in Madison, Wisconsin that involves leaf theft?

Mulch is the answer from the crowd.

We're going to have a good time in mob justice, I can tell.

Let the record show some people in the crowd yelled, mulch.

Is that the answer?

Yes, that's great.

They want that sweet mulch.

Yes.

No mulch is better than the north side mulch.

I'm sorry I'm making you so mad.

Please.

You are friends, correct?

Colleagues, friends, pals?

Very good friends.

Very good friends.

For a lot of people.

And yet, the spite persists.

What do your mutual friends say about Joe's claim to Eastside Dom?

Joe?

I know what you're going to say, Allison.

I mean we could ask Allison's boyfriend.

All right.

Allison's boyfriend.

No, we don't have him here.

What would Allison's boyfriend say about it, Joe?

I mean, in many of our chat, he has said, yeah, Joe clearly lives on the East Side.

And any other friends?

I mean, but, you know, obviously Allison's boyfriend is.

He's on the north side.

Who's that?

That would be my friend Jory.

Okay.

Joe, did you bring any people to support you?

Yes, that little one with the glasses right there.

Little one with the glasses?

And this human being has a name?

Scout.

Scout.

Yes.

Scout, can you raise your hand just so I can see?

Okay.

Oh, Scout, I have a feeling that you're also biased.

Scout, let me just ask you a question.

Do you have Tom Waits on your playlist?

Yes.

Okay.

Scout, did Joe tell you there's going to be a rumble later?

Yeah, it's a real Northside side story yeah

tom waits does a cover of there's a place for us which is great it goes like this

i gotta ride in a

minivan with this guy yeah that's right we're gonna get out in that delical later and i'm gonna sing some sweet songs to you uh joe what what do you have against the north side why can't you just say i live in the north side

I don't have anything against the north side.

I just don't go to

okay, Rob, help me out here.

Is this a clear-cut case or not?

You heard the streets they're talking about: east-northwest Avenue, south, east, near-east

boulevard, or whatever.

I don't get it.

I mean, this is clearly to me a cultural dispute, masquerading as a geographical dispute.

Describe the cultural difference.

What are the cultural states?

Well, the east side would be

sort of a progressive hippie culture.

And historically progressive hippie culture.

Yeah, it was like the west side.

That's where it happens.

Yes.

Right.

And then the west side.

It's a sort of mulching community.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

It's a mulch forward community.

Well, the west side was like where all the university professors were leading.

So also progressive, but much more money over there.

Sure, right.

Brandon Berkin shared a liberal.

There you go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then the north side is a fairly new, I mean, the Oscar Meyer plant is the former Oscar Meyer plant.

Right.

So it's a very working-class neighborhood.

Right, because Oscar Meyer was headquartered here for more than 50 years.

Correct.

Making non-sandwich hot dogs.

Let's not start.

Okay.

Whoa, you want to take beef with my hot dog?

No, no, no, no.

For your sake, I didn't want to get pulled into that.

Oh, no, no, no.

I can take care of myself.

I'm from Park Slope.

You know I can take care of myself.

Is that East or West Park Slope?

South Slope.

Okay.

Yeah.

The real slope.

And then, yeah, North is now becoming kind of the hip cool new neighborhood with lots of new great restaurants, North Street.

It sounds like exactly the kind of place a wonderful poser like Joe would want to live.

Why do you think he's reaching over to the east side?

I don't know.

That's what surprises me.

Do you think, based on Joe's home's position on the map, which we revealed to the entire audience,

that

he is empirically in one neighborhood or the other, or is he in a Twilight Zone between the two?

I think he's in the DMZ between North and East.

Joe,

why is this

important to you?

Why do you care so much about which neighborhood you live in?

Because I get the feeling it's not just geography.

No, I mean, for example, there's a co-op, Willie Street North and Willie Street East.

I go to the east side, Willie Street Co-op.

Yes, I understand that you have all kinds of arguments for why you live in the east side.

My bailiff asked the probing question: why do you care?

So that way people know where I'm from.

Why do you want people to know where you're from?

Because they ask and I say, where are you from this?

Right?

There's a great Vince Staples song called North North.

It's about how he's from North Long Beach.

Now, when he says he's from North Long Beach, he's not just trying to do geographic clarification.

There is deep emotional meaning to the fact that he is from North Long Beach.

And if someone suggested that he was from the city of commerce, not all that far away, he'd be pretty upset.

Yeah.

So why is it that you want to be so clear about this?

And

you can't tell me that it's so that people don't get lost on the way to your house or whatever.

No, I mean, the leafs are just an example, but there's chickens, there's just all sorts of like.

That's the answer, Jesse.

There's chickens.

There's east side things like chickens and cats and dogs.

Yeah.

Let's try it at another angle, Jesse.

Yeah, thanks.

Allison.

Why is it you're you're friends with Joe?

Yeah.

Good friends.

Yes.

You like him?

Yes.

Why is it so important for you to keep him out of your precious east side and to gatekeep this neighborshood so hard?

Maybe because it kicks him off when I say he's from the east side.

Maybe because it annoys him.

Is the east side moving?

Is it like pizza, a state of mind?

Yes.

Yes, it is.

Is it creeping to the north side?

Is the east side ethos creeping to the north?

Yes.

And is Joe taking that with him and destroying what was the north side and replacing it with Joe?

And the east?

No, I said the north side is lucky to have Joe, and I believe that.

All right,

Madisonians, this is not going to affect my decision, but you have been trying to yell your opinions at me for a while.

We're going to do this by

yelling.

Thank you.

Those of you don't do it yet, I'm going to point at you.

If you believe that Joe lives on the east side, yell east when I point at you.

Well done.

If you believe that Joe lives on the north side, yell north when I point at you.

50-50.

I mean, I think that was down to the person.

That was 50-50.

I'm sure you'll all explain it to me later, but I think I've heard everything I I need to in order to make my decision.

I'll be back in a moment to give you my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Joe, how are you feeling about your chances?

I'm feeling pretty good.

I'm feeling confident.

Why is that?

You seem like you're talking yourself into that.

Because there's only one true east side, and that's where I live.

I just can't can't think of it any other way.

The east side welcomes you.

She just wants your mulch, Joe.

Allison, how are you feeling about your chances?

Very, very confident.

Is that just because it's been revealed this evening that Judge John Hodgman is a compulsive friend annoyer?

Yes.

please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

It says here that if I were to rule in your favor, Joe, that not only do I rule that you are in the East Side, but Allison has to introduce you as Joe from the East Side.

Yes, that's correct.

AKA East Side Joe.

AKA Joe East.

I'll take it.

Yeah, a.k.a.

Too much mulch, Joe.

Don't be fooled by the money that I've got.

I'm still Joe from the block.

The East Side block, exactly.

And Allison, you want me to rule that he lives on the North side?

One of the things that I think is complicated is that I don't even know what the hell you're talking about.

You know, and unfortunately, I put this on both of you.

Now, maybe the issues are a little too complex or inflammatory to really go into the depths of why the east side is the east side and the north side is the north side.

And I respect that.

We're a podcast.

We're here in the middle of the afternoon on a Saturday.

But nor were you able to effectively, Joe, argue why it was emotionally important to you to associate with the neighborhood that your friend Allison lives in.

And I guess other members of your friend group too.

That you might feel like the outlier, perhaps, the one that they don't fully accept because of your address that we saw printed on a screen for everybody.

I mean,

that's a powerful emotional argument that you could have made, but chose not to.

Instead, you said there are chickens there.

Which is probably meaningful to a Madisonian.

Yeah, chickens are probably a real East Side thing.

But to me, your judge, John Hodgman, it means nothing.

You didn't come prepared to make your argument about why you belong in the East Side.

Nor, Allison, did you come prepared to make an argument about why you should be so cruel as to keep your friend arm's length or side's length away from you?

So all I am left with, unfortunately, is the angry wisdom of the mob.

I went to the crowd and I asked them their opinion, and I truly felt, I mean, Jesse, Rob, you heard them yell, did one, right down the middle, right?

Chop chop, as they say in Texas Hold'em poker, right down the middle, split.

And therefore, I can only conclude that the wisest decision is that, Joe,

I don't know where you live,

but it is absolutely Joe Town, Wisconsin.

That you define your own neighborhood that is neither east nor west, nor north, nor south, nor central, nor prime isthmus, or whatever the various neighborhoods are here.

You live in Mulchville, Madison.

And I'm going to call you not Eastside Joe, but Mulchie Joe from now on.

This is the sound of a gap.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is home.

Alice and Joe, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

And thanks to you too, Rob Thomas.

Rob, if people want to read more of your work, including but not limited to your delightful interview with Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman, where can they go?

Please go to captimes.com.

and thank you for putting up with this.

I had the best time.

And support local journalism.

Definitely, please.

Yeah.

Thank you, Rob.

That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Our thanks to Reddit users, Misfortune Machine, and funny film fan for naming the case in this episode.

Make sure to follow us on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman and on TikTok and YouTube at judgejohnhodgman pod.

And may I say thank you to good God Lizzie Lemon over there on Apple Podcast.

Gave us a five star rating.

That's pronounced good God Lizzie Lemon.

Excuse me, you're absolutely right.

Yeah.

Good God, Lizzie Lemon.

Over there in Apple Podcast, they gave us a five-star rating and said, quote, as a criminal defense attorney, wow, it is delightful to listen to the judge adjudicate disputes fairly, compassionately, and in accordance with the court's precedent.

Even silly disputes often involve finding the crux that implicates how we all treat each other, gender roles, autonomy, and other important considerations.

There is genuine wisdom here.

End quote.

Thank you very much.

Good God, Lizzie Lemon, Esquire.

And if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, why don't you give us a rating and review?

Really does help new listeners find the show, as does simply telling your friends wherever you see them.

Absolutely.

And look, Apple Podcast isn't the only way to listen to our program.

There's lots of great ways.

You know what I use?

I use Overcast.

Overcast.

Just saying, I love Overcast.

Love that.

Podcast Addict.

A lot of people like that.

There's a lot of good apps to listen to your favorite podcasts on.

If they've got a rating system, please do rate and review.

If they don't, please share on social media or just tell a friend in real life.

When you're at a cocktail party, say, ah, I heard a great thing on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

They'll say, what's that?

You'll say, well, wait until you hear about these cousins where one of them has five specific properties he needs to own.

And by the way, if you're at a cocktail cocktail party, why didn't you invite me?

I like a cocktail party.

Yeah.

Invite me to an It's It party, please.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne.

Our touring producer was Laura Valk.

This episode recorded by Stephen Cologne.

Natty Lopez is our social media manager.

AJ McKeon is our editor.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

I saw actually that Laura's band Scout had some new music there on Instagram at Scout Out Loud, S-K-O-U-T

Out Loud.

Really, really beautiful guitar pop is how I would call it.

Like a Fleetwood Mackey vibe.

They're wonderful.

Scout, S-K-O-U-T, Scout Out Loud.

Instagram.

Check out the new song in Morning.

Scout Out Loud.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge Town Hodgman podcast.

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