Van Freaks Roadshow in Madison

Speaker 1 Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bale of Jesse Thorne here with Judge John Hodgman.

Speaker 5 This week's episode was recorded live at the beautiful and strangely goes around a corner majestic theater in Madison, Wisconsin.

Speaker 1 Oh, well,

Speaker 1 this was a great time.

Speaker 1 There is pizza. There is a very intense dispute about neighborhoods in Madison, and we don't know neighborhoods in Madison.
So our understanding will become your understanding.

Speaker 11 We're lucky we got out of there alive, basically.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was incredible.

Speaker 1 And we got to see Rob Thomas, not that Rob Thomas, the Rob Thomas from the Judge John Hodgman podcast, the guy who wears minion sleep shorts to go outside and check his mailbox.

Speaker 1 And previously, walk his dog, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 12 We had a great time at the Majestic Theater in Madison.

Speaker 13 The show is a blast.

Speaker 9 Let's go to the stage at the Majestic in Madison, Wisconsin.

Speaker 16 Madison, Wisconsin, you came to us seeking justice, and we're here to deliver it at the Majestic Theater.

Speaker 16 The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session. Let us bring out our first set of litigants.
Please welcome to the stage Matt and Jess.

Speaker 16 Tonight's case, Anti-Chrust Law. Matt Matt brings the case against his wife, Jess.
He loves to make all kinds of pizza, including his beloved Detroit style. Jess says, that's not pizza.

Speaker 16 It's only pizza if it's round. Who's right, who's wrong? Only one can decide.
Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Speaker 17 The hogosau.

Speaker 16 Oh, Jesus, not missing you.

Speaker 18 If you live it up, you live in this.

Speaker 16 This is in every stop on the tour.

Speaker 10 So she left mom to you.

Speaker 16 She's been doing this

Speaker 16 just like a boy. We have like 10 more tour dates.

Speaker 18 With her charcoal eyes and Monroe Hill.

Speaker 18 She went and took that California trip.

Speaker 16 I might have to quit.

Speaker 18 The moon was cold, her hair's like wind.

Speaker 2 Said, don't look bad, just come on, Jim.

Speaker 2 Oh, you gotta hold on, hold on,

Speaker 2 You got to hold on.

Speaker 10 Take my hand.

Speaker 20 I'm standing right here.

Speaker 2 You got to hold on.

Speaker 23 Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Speaker 16 Sort of brought it on myself.

Speaker 16 Matt, Jess, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God, or whatever?

Speaker 22 I do.

Speaker 16 Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he believes pizza should be spherical?

Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.

Speaker 16 Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Speaker 25 Matt and Jesse, you may be seated.

Speaker 26 For an immediate summary, judgment in one of your favorites, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered the courtroom.

Speaker 30 It sounded like the Badger fight song.

Speaker 14 The Badger fight song.

Speaker 21 Great guess. I love it.
I'm putting it in.

Speaker 16 John, it would be legitimately amazing if he sang the Wisconsin Badgers fight song.

Speaker 6 Matt, what is your guess?

Speaker 31 That sounded like it could be some sort of deep cut by Mark Cohn.

Speaker 24 Deep cut?

Speaker 32 That's so deep I don't even know what you're talking about.

Speaker 17 Yeah.

Speaker 16 Not one of those famous Mark Cohen smash hits.

Speaker 19 No.

Speaker 3 All guesses are wrong.

Speaker 21 The answer is

Speaker 14 it was a song called Hold On by Tom Waits.

Speaker 35 This entire tour I'm only singing Tom Waits songs as the cultural references.

Speaker 32 A little clue to those listening down the road or maybe going to be up here on stage later.

Speaker 38 And for two reasons.

Speaker 29 One, I love Tom Waits and two, it drives Jesse bananas.

Speaker 16 Absolutely nuts.

Speaker 14 That was hold on as performed by Tom Waits in his album Mule Variations, but technically, I was a little wink to a recent, a beautiful cover of that song by the artist Madison Cunningham.

Speaker 41 Get it?

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 3 But now we have to hear your dumb case.

Speaker 14 So listen.

Speaker 16 I liked that that reply really rode the line between

Speaker 16 and

Speaker 15 Matt, Matt and Jess, before we get going, I am told that you were married right here on stage at the majestic theater approximately 364 days ago.

Speaker 33 Is that correct?

Speaker 3 That's correct. So would that mean...

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 21 So would that mean that tomorrow is your first anniversary?

Speaker 31 That's right.

Speaker 28 And that is, I believe that's the paper anniversary.

Speaker 44 That's the paper anniversary. Right.

Speaker 45 Oh, Jesse, you know,

Speaker 42 we should have gotten them a gift.

Speaker 28 I'm really sorry.

Speaker 28 Well, I some paper towels here.

Speaker 18 What's that?

Speaker 16 I got them a gift.

Speaker 39 Oh, you did, Jesse? Yeah.

Speaker 16 Oh, that's great.

Speaker 46 I didn't realize.

Speaker 16 I just want to wish Matt and Jess a happy first anniversary. I went down to the Friends of the Madison Public Library and I got you your long erotic weekend.

Speaker 16 Four days of passion for a lifetime of magnificent sex.

Speaker 16 By Lana Holstein, MD, and David Taylor, MD. You know, day one, you and your lover rekindle that spark, learning to tune into each other's sexual energy.
Oh boy.

Speaker 16 Day two, he pleases her and unleashes her inner sex goddess. Day three, she returns the favor for her warrior lover and pleases him as he's never been pleased before.

Speaker 16 Day four, the two of you become one in a mind-altering, soul-shattering, ecstatic union that rocks your world forever. With your long erotic weekend, you're not in sexual Dolesville anymore.

Speaker 16 You'll learn how to awaken your sensual selves, rekindle that sexual spark, master the tantric secrets of orgasm, and take one another to heights of passion you've only dreamed about.

Speaker 16 This is sex like you've never had before.

Speaker 18 Your long erotic weekend.

Speaker 10 4 p.m. show.

Speaker 47 I'll remind Jesse, 4 p.m. show.

Speaker 28 Children in the audience.

Speaker 29 Happy anniversary.

Speaker 14 I'm sure you're all planning out your Halloween costume, which is Sexy Bailiff.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 14 All right, Jess and Matt, congratulations, and I hope you enjoyed the book.

Speaker 37 Thank you very much.

Speaker 3 But you're no longer in sexual Dullesville.

Speaker 49 You're in the court of Judge John Hodgman.

Speaker 14 Who seeks justice in this, my fake court of internet law?

Speaker 31 I do, Your Honor. And you would be Matt.

Speaker 14 What is the nature of your complaint?

Speaker 31 It was revealed to me approximately one year ago that.

Speaker 41 On your wedding night?

Speaker 2 I can't wait to hear the rest of this sentence.

Speaker 31 I discovered

Speaker 31 through the telling of an anecdote that Jess does not believe that non-circular pizzas are legitimately pizzas. And furthermore, that she will not eat one or permit one to be made in our home.

Speaker 22 Wow.

Speaker 19 Jess, what is your problem with non-circularized?

Speaker 10 Wait, hold on, hold on.

Speaker 16 We're ahead of ourselves. What was the anecdote that revealed this?

Speaker 31 So this was a story from several years ago about a time when I was making a hamburger, but I did not have any hamburger buns. So I used a

Speaker 31 personal-sized frozen pizza in the shape of a square, cut that in half, and that became buns.

Speaker 16 I think you just got elected mayor of Madison.

Speaker 26 I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

Speaker 16 Jess, what's it like to be married to an insane genius?

Speaker 30 You know, it's only been a year. It's going to be a long life.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Jess, what is your so, Jess, you looked at this and you're like, that's not only not hamburger buns, that's not even pizza because it's square.

Speaker 2 That's correct.

Speaker 14 And what is your issue with non-circular pizza?

Speaker 30 I personally feel that any pizza that is not in the shape of a circle

Speaker 30 is unworthy of the name of pizza. Wow.

Speaker 36 There are a lot of non-circle pizzas in life, you know.

Speaker 30 Well, you know, you can avoid them pretty easily.

Speaker 2 Okay, fair enough.

Speaker 14 Matt, what is a Detroit-style pizza for those who do not know?

Speaker 31 So, a Detroit-style pizza is traditionally much thicker.

Speaker 31 It will have a thicker dough.

Speaker 51 It's a pan pizza.

Speaker 31 It's a pan pizza, as they say.

Speaker 31 A thick layer of cheese on top.

Speaker 31 And

Speaker 31 the signature of the Detroit style is a little on the nose out there Wisconsin

Speaker 31 the the Detroit style is known for its crispy edges where the cheese browns along the edge of the pan and sort of becomes one with the golden edge of the crust and are those edges arcs or lines sir you know the answer why are you thinking those they are lines they are lines because it is a what-shaped pizza a square or square or a rectangle.

Speaker 4 I'm having a difficulty picturing this.

Speaker 27 Do we have any evidence that we can bring forward?

Speaker 29 Some square, Detroit-style, arguably pizza.

Speaker 44 Oh, look at that.

Speaker 22 I believe we do.

Speaker 15 Who made this pizza, Matt?

Speaker 46 I did.

Speaker 27 Fantastic, because you had some hamburgers lying around and you need some.

Speaker 4 So this looks like a beautiful.

Speaker 10 Would you, I know that the pizza that you're holding, Jess, fills you with complete disgust.

Speaker 35 And she's actually kind of looks like she's gonna throw up.

Speaker 15 Angle it forward a little bit so the people at home can see it's a beautiful looking Detroit style pizza.

Speaker 26 I'll take that off your hands.

Speaker 49 You can use that paper towel to disinfect yourself from this horrible contagion.

Speaker 14 Jess you want to take a square?

Speaker 16 Yeah you bet I do. Yeah I know.

Speaker 27 This looks really good.

Speaker 49 That is a thick Detroit pizza right there.

Speaker 16 Thick Detroit pizza for a thick San Francisco bailiff.

Speaker 33 It has pepperonis on it, is that right?

Speaker 2 And these pepperonis are also thick.

Speaker 44 Well done, double thick.

Speaker 14 Would you like a square?

Speaker 34 Yeah,

Speaker 34 take one.

Speaker 12 Jess, may I offer you a square?

Speaker 30 I'd like to hold off until your verdict, if that would be all right.

Speaker 27 Oh, that's true, because if I rule this a pizza, then you might have to eat it.

Speaker 10 Okay.

Speaker 54 Yes.

Speaker 27 Everyone loves eating on mic, so I'll even have a bite.

Speaker 16 This does remind me a little bit of what someone in line in front of me at the farmer's market here in Madison this morning called fascia bread.

Speaker 31 It does have some similarities to a fashasha or a focaccia, as you might say.

Speaker 6 Matt, I'll hold on to that if you don't want to eat it on mine.

Speaker 6 It's really delicious, though. I'll just get it closer to Jess for Matt.

Speaker 43 Jess, if this isn't pizza, what is it?

Speaker 30 It's too thick bread with some cheese and sauce

Speaker 10 and some toppings. It's too thick bread with some cheese and sauce and some toppings.

Speaker 26 And the bread isn't baked when you put it in the pan, right?

Speaker 10 It's dough, right?

Speaker 31 The dough is raw when it goes to the bottom.

Speaker 27 It's not like you're making a French bread pizza

Speaker 39 after school or something like that.

Speaker 53 This is a real dough that you made from scratch.

Speaker 33 And that probably took some time and care.

Speaker 53 Absolutely.

Speaker 10 And yet your wife wants nothing to do with it.

Speaker 34 I understand.

Speaker 44 Unfortunately.

Speaker 16 My old friend Dan Grayson,

Speaker 16 who created the theme music for The Sound of Young America and helped us with this show,

Speaker 16 he calls it cheesy sauce bread. He says there's pizza and cheesy sauce bread.

Speaker 27 What do you think about that, Jess?

Speaker 30 Is that whole water? That really rings true in my heart.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I like that definition. I see.

Speaker 10 What kind of pizza did you grow up with?

Speaker 15 Where did you grow up, and what's your pizza legacy?

Speaker 30 Yeah, so

Speaker 30 I grew up in the Chicago suburbs. There is no Chicago pizza.

Speaker 10 Oh, very famous for its very thin pizzas. Traditional thin.

Speaker 30 Well, I do love deep dish. I love, you know, somebody wooed for the lots of cheese.
I agree, lots of cheese on pizza is great.

Speaker 30 But Chicago also has all kinds of tavern style, thin crust, and also, I don't know exactly the terminology for it, but what I, you know, like a normal pan pizza that's like circular, but like a

Speaker 30 medium thickness crust.

Speaker 44 Uh-huh.

Speaker 30 And so that was the pizza I grew up on, all those three kinds. We had pizza a lot growing up, but I was never, ever exposed to non-circular styles of pizza

Speaker 30 until I got to college.

Speaker 2 And then what happened?

Speaker 54 And then

Speaker 16 the woke brigade marched in

Speaker 16 with their pizza diversity training.

Speaker 30 You know, if only, if only.

Speaker 30 Somebody, you know, after a night out had ordered Jets pizza.

Speaker 29 All right, a chain that I've, a local chain that I've never heard of.

Speaker 30 A local chain that specializes in Detroit-style cheesy bread with sauce.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 30 And this was, again, the first time I had ever even seen in person a pizza that was not circular.

Speaker 30 And to describe it, you know, it has a lot of the same characteristics theoretically as what you've described as Detroit-style pizza, but the crust was like...

Speaker 30 I mean, it was like four inches thick. There was a layer of not olive oil or any good kind of grease, but like the really bad, like

Speaker 30 bottom of the fryer restaurant grease, you know,

Speaker 30 and then not enough to see it.

Speaker 30 It was just, it was terrible. It was, it was a terrible introduction to non-circular pizza.

Speaker 30 And I have to say that I have in, you know, almost 20 years since, never experienced a square pizza that was worth ever wanting to eat again.

Speaker 37 Wow.

Speaker 43 And you had never seen a square pizza till you went to college?

Speaker 6 I mean,

Speaker 6 I knew that they they existed.

Speaker 2 Were you part of a religious order of some kind? I was not.

Speaker 44 I mean, I grew up Catholic, but yeah.

Speaker 27 You've heard of Sicilian pizza, right?

Speaker 30 I have heard of Sicilian pizza.

Speaker 46 Yeah, there's some Catholics there.

Speaker 10 Right.

Speaker 30 That is true.

Speaker 30 I knew that they existed. I had never been expected to eat it before in my life, and I was.
soundly disappointed.

Speaker 55 When was the first time, Matt, that you tried to make Detroit-style pizza for Jess?

Speaker 31 um so this conversation actually took place before i had considered making detroit style pizza uh for

Speaker 31 i'll be very honest yes that's part of it

Speaker 14 because in my notes here i'm told like oh you have a very deep connection to detroit style pizza it goes back in your history you want to reconnect with that history but mostly you just want to make your wife annoyed

Speaker 21 You took it as a marriage night dare, and you were going to show her.

Speaker 25 You got up out of bed immediately and started searching for recipes.

Speaker 14 Thickest possible square pizza.

Speaker 16 This is less a Detroit-style pizza, more of an F-Me, F-U-style pizza.

Speaker 31 So I am originally from a suburb of Detroit. Okay.
And some of my earliest pizza memories are of

Speaker 31 square, thick pizzas,

Speaker 31 like we demonstrated.

Speaker 31 And

Speaker 31 I love making pizza. I love cooking.
I love cooking for my wife.

Speaker 31 And I would love to expand my repertoire and

Speaker 31 bring that style of pizza into our rotation at home.

Speaker 33 But you make other kinds of pizza as well, right?

Speaker 16 I do.

Speaker 14 Do you make round style?

Speaker 31 I make that style as well.

Speaker 51 In a pan, or we have one of those, right?

Speaker 14 Let's take a look at the round style.

Speaker 15 Oh, that's a beautiful round pizza that everyone would agree is pizza.

Speaker 34 Thank you.

Speaker 10 Yeah, Jess is not only happy to hold it, but is reaching for it.

Speaker 6 And she's going to eat some loudly on microphone, I trust.

Speaker 27 What do we have on this one? It looks like some olives and some.

Speaker 31 This one is apple dates. Never mind.

Speaker 28 Jess, give that back. Give that back.

Speaker 33 Spit out.

Speaker 2 Spit it out, please.

Speaker 37 Spit it out.

Speaker 6 Thank you.

Speaker 37 Wow.

Speaker 43 Let's go back to the hamburger with pizza bun.

Speaker 48 Is he okay, Jess?

Speaker 57 Apple and figs.

Speaker 34 Well, that's a thing.

Speaker 36 People do that, I suppose.

Speaker 16 Your objection is too much bread, meanwhile. Dot, dot, dot.

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 46 Jess, let me ask you, we'll do a quick quiz, or, you know, give me your opinion on what is or is not pizza.

Speaker 15 And if you agree with Jess, applaud. And if you disagree with Jess,

Speaker 41 boo.

Speaker 24 We've talked about some of these already.

Speaker 14 Sicilian style pizza.

Speaker 22 No.

Speaker 41 Wow.

Speaker 21 Chicago deep dish pizza.

Speaker 34 Yes. Wow.

Speaker 21 Some disagree.

Speaker 17 Controversial.

Speaker 36 Controversial.

Speaker 28 In Chicago, they won't let a pizza alone.

Speaker 21 Like, they won't let it just be pizza.

Speaker 10 They're cooking pizza in bowls anyway.

Speaker 26 Chicago, you mentioned it, Chicago tavern cut pizza.

Speaker 30 Yes.

Speaker 50 Aha!

Speaker 32 And yet, when it is tavern cut, what is the shape of the piece?

Speaker 2 It's square.

Speaker 19 Yes.

Speaker 32 What does it become then?

Speaker 33 Non-pizza?

Speaker 30 It started as a circle. It originated as a circle and it's cut into squares or trapezoids, whatever you like.
Totally fine.

Speaker 4 Sure. New Haven-style white clam pizza.

Speaker 30 What shape is it?

Speaker 7 Oblong.

Speaker 11 No right angles.

Speaker 41 Clams. I'll allow it.

Speaker 44 Oh, thank you.

Speaker 50 Wow.

Speaker 20 You don't know who you're dealing with, do you?

Speaker 24 White clam pizza is the best pizza.

Speaker 38 That's a fact.

Speaker 49 That's what they teach in the Protestant religion.

Speaker 36 I'm also a Catholic.

Speaker 44 Pizza on a bagel.

Speaker 50 No.

Speaker 48 But you can have it anytime.

Speaker 30 You should have used that for your hamburger.

Speaker 10 I do. Don't.

Speaker 5 If you put your hamburger on a bagel, not only is it not a sandwich, it's not a hamburger.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 33 That's true.

Speaker 13 So, Matt, you grew up in the suburb of Detroit.

Speaker 40 You claim to have some deep connection to this pizza.

Speaker 36 But you like round pizza too.

Speaker 49 Why don't you just make round pizza for your wonderful bride?

Speaker 31 I do do make round pizza for my bride.

Speaker 28 Yeah, but why do you try to force your square pizza on her?

Speaker 31 Because I think it has qualities to offer that a circular pizza doesn't have.

Speaker 46 Go on.

Speaker 37 The shape is one thing. The shape.

Speaker 31 The bubbly cheesiness that crisps up around the edges, the crispy dough, the tall sides. Yeah.

Speaker 31 It's just a different experience than the circular pizza.

Speaker 14 And you have fun making it?

Speaker 31 I had tremendous fun making it.

Speaker 26 Jess, if I were to rule in your favor, it says here, you'd like me to order that Matt is free to make and eat what he wants, but Detroit-style cannot be the only pizza option offered.

Speaker 35 In other words, one square, one round.

Speaker 30 Yes, please.

Speaker 28 That seems eminently fair. What's wrong with that, Matt?

Speaker 31 This is the first time hearing of that.

Speaker 15 Okay, Matt, if I were to rule in your favor, it says that it should rule that you should be able to make Detroit-style pizza, serve it for dinner, and that Jess has to acknowledge that it is pizza.

Speaker 31 I request that

Speaker 31 she allow it to be made in the house. Ideally, she would consume it, but yes, I would like to be allowed to make

Speaker 31 non-circular pizzas in my own home.

Speaker 15 Well, she's saying you can, you just have to keep it to yourself.

Speaker 11 Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 14 It's like a side deal that you have with yourself.

Speaker 55 Personal care, we call call it, in Chicago.

Speaker 31 I could consider that as a compromise, but I think

Speaker 31 the work of making two kinds of pizza is maybe a little bit unreasonable.

Speaker 15 Jess, any closing arguments?

Speaker 30 I would say if this was about a topping, like a mushroom or something.

Speaker 55 What's your favorite topping for pizza?

Speaker 30 Oh, pepperoni. Yeah.

Speaker 54 Which is why he put the pepperoni on the Detroit-style pizza. Try to trick me.

Speaker 33 That's why he made that gross round pizza and put pepperonis on the square one to try to sway you?

Speaker 41 Oh, Matt.

Speaker 16 Matt, what's your favorite topping? Quince?

Speaker 31 Lately, I liked Italian sausage and gardenera.

Speaker 34 Oh, very Chicago. That's pretty good.

Speaker 16 Jess, I have a question for you. Matt said he loves to cook.

Speaker 16 Is he the kind of cooking husband who cooks most of the food in the house?

Speaker 16 Or is he the kind of cooking husband who likes to do elaborate cooking projects once a month and then provide them with gray diploma. And also, they're always either pizza or barbecue.

Speaker 30 He is the former. He is the person doing most of the cooking in the household, which I deeply, deeply appreciate.

Speaker 30 And I make that clear all the time, especially when he makes delicious circular pizzas.

Speaker 30 I am more the one that will do the elaborate once a month every dish in the kitchen, and then it's either pizza or barbecue.

Speaker 37 Yeah.

Speaker 11 I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

Speaker 14 I will retire to my chambers.

Speaker 35 I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Speaker 16 Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Speaker 16 Matt, how are you feeling about your chances in this case?

Speaker 16 I feel pretty good.

Speaker 31 I think I've presented a solid case. And

Speaker 31 I trust that whatever the judge decides will be reasonable and fair.

Speaker 16 Jess, did you think that by offering to eat 50% square pizza, you could duck the issue of whether square pizza is actually itself pizza?

Speaker 30 I'm too stubborn for that.

Speaker 2 I did not think that.

Speaker 16 How do you feel about your chances?

Speaker 30 I feel that my chances are dwindling as time goes on.

Speaker 16 Well, let's be honest, all of our chances are dwindling as time goes on.

Speaker 16 It's just something we have to come to terms with. You can talk to your priest about it.

Speaker 16 We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about this when we come back in just a moment.

Speaker 58 Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

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Speaker 16 Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Speaker 40 First of all, I have to commend Matt for his ingenuity in putting a burger on two pieces of of frozen pizza.

Speaker 21 That's neither pizza nor a hamburger nor a sandwich.

Speaker 24 It's an entirely new thing that you should be selling out of a truck somewhere.

Speaker 49 And then you'll be celebrating your second anniversary with Guy Fieti.

Speaker 51 When I was young, I had an entrepreneurial spirit myself.

Speaker 28 I decided that I was going to sell English muffin pizzas out of the first floor window of our home in suburban Brookline, Massachusetts.

Speaker 14 I came to this decision because I had noticed in the refrigerator we had English muffins, tomato sauce, and mozzarella cheese, and so therefore my costs were zero.

Speaker 28 This was going to be a pure profit operation for me.

Speaker 14 I was going to rake it in, and I would become famous in the neighborhood, the only thing I cared about.

Speaker 10 I didn't care about pizza.

Speaker 26 I would become famous in the neighborhood for being the kid who sells English muffin pizzas out of the first floor window of his parents' home.

Speaker 29 We put up posters all around.

Speaker 34 It was a very good price point, 25 cents.

Speaker 26 I was making the English muffin pizzas in the toaster oven.

Speaker 6 I could barely keep up with supply because people were walking across our lawn to our patio and ordering the pizzas.

Speaker 14 And I started to realize as I was selling them, like,

Speaker 39 well,

Speaker 52 hotcakes,

Speaker 28 which probably I should have sold,

Speaker 24 that none of these people were strangers to me.

Speaker 12 They were all friends of my parents.

Speaker 14 And slowly it dawned on me that these were not just citizens of Brookline walking around going, hmm, 25 cents for an English muffin pizza, good deal.

Speaker 17 I'll walk across private property to get it.

Speaker 23 These are people who were sent to my house by my parents.

Speaker 52 to buy the pizza.

Speaker 29 And that's when I realized there is such a thing as a dishonest day's work.

Speaker 28 I was a Nepo baby English muffin pizza magnate.

Speaker 25 I felt truly ashamed of myself.

Speaker 36 And only then did I realize this isn't pizza at all.

Speaker 43 There are things that are not pizza.

Speaker 17 And I would agree that Fokasha is not pizza.

Speaker 3 Fashasha.

Speaker 27 I forgot how they say it in Wisconsin.

Speaker 26 Beyond Wisconsin-style fashasha, there is also Altoona pizza, which is in Altoona, Pennsylvania, which is square pizza with American cheese on it.

Speaker 52 There is St. Louis-style pizza,

Speaker 33 okay, which

Speaker 16 the entire Provelle family is in the house,

Speaker 3 which is essentially a saltine cracker with Provelle processed cheese on it, an acquired taste.

Speaker 45 Are these things pizza, even though they are an affront to the senses?

Speaker 52 That is the question.

Speaker 29 And I have to say, yes, as long as it is a flatbread that you are cooking with sauce and toppings on it, as long as it is served in a bar, as long as it is shared in a college dorm room, for example, or after hours in a tavern, as long as it fits most, and especially if it has clams on it, it's a delicious pizza.

Speaker 53 Pizza is a state of mind as much as it is a food way, and that state of mind is usually high or drunk.

Speaker 29 Now, this is a four o'clock in the afternoon show.

Speaker 51 I am dead sober.

Speaker 6 Well, what time is it actually?

Speaker 3 How far after four is it?

Speaker 16 4.40.

Speaker 19 4.40. Okay.

Speaker 14 I am dead sober, and yet I still enjoy this very, very thick and fluffy Detroit-style pizza that you made, Matt.

Speaker 52 I will not stop you from eating it.

Speaker 27 I will not stop you from enjoying it.

Speaker 14 I will not stop you from making it.

Speaker 43 I will not stop you from calling it pizza.

Speaker 27 But in the interest of your marriage and such that it goes on for a long time, keep it away from your wife.

Speaker 23 It's really not her thing.

Speaker 15 It's really not her thing.

Speaker 14 You should make it for yourself, make it for your friends who come over,

Speaker 26 and not try to force it on her.

Speaker 55 Because after all, it's set a law in this court that people like what they like.

Speaker 49 Keep this away from your wife.

Speaker 28 This is personal for you.

Speaker 61 One thing about a marriage, and I've been in one for a long time, is that you have to maintain separate lives, as well as the lives that you have entwined together.

Speaker 10 Your separate interests, your hobbies, and your pursuits, and so forth.

Speaker 40 This is one of them.

Speaker 28 That said, of course, it's pizza.

Speaker 17 It's Detroit-style pizza.

Speaker 47 This is the sound of a gavel.

Speaker 47 Judge John Hodgman will set aside.

Speaker 16 Matt, Jess, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Speaker 62 You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years. And

Speaker 62 maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened. And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

Speaker 63 But no, no, you would be wrong. We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Speaker 62 Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works. The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

Speaker 63 We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening. And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

Speaker 62 So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 64 All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show. Let's learn everything.
So let's do a quick progress check. Have we learned about quantum physics?

Speaker 59 Yes, episode 59.

Speaker 64 We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we? Yes, we have. Same episode, actually.
Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Speaker 22 Episode 64.

Speaker 64 So how close are we to learning everything? Bad news. We still haven't learned everything yet.

Speaker 22 Oh, we're ruined!

Speaker 64 No, no, no, it's good news as well. There is still a lot to learn.
Woo!

Speaker 64 I'm Dr. Ella Hubber.

Speaker 59 I'm regular Tom Lum.

Speaker 64 I'm Caroline Roper. And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

Speaker 64 And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Speaker 59 Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Speaker 1 Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case. You've got solid sound coming right up, right?

Speaker 33 That's right.

Speaker 9 June 28th through the 30th, it's the solid sound festival in North Adams, Massachusetts.

Speaker 5 It's Wilco, the bands,

Speaker 8 every other year festival of music, arts, and delights, the best music festival that you can find in a former electronic parts factory in western Massachusetts.

Speaker 10 It's a total delight.

Speaker 8 And not only are you going to get to see Wilco play two nights in a row, and not only are you going to get to see

Speaker 8 incredible musicians like Nick Lowe and Young Fresh Fellows, the band Wednesday,

Speaker 42 all of your various Wilco side projects, but an incredible comedy stage.

Speaker 8 co-hosted by me and your friend Gene Gray, featuring the comedic stylings of Dave Hill, Todd Barry, Sidney Washington, Brittany Carney, and the incredible native of Massachusetts, semi-native of Massachusetts himself, Eugene Merman.

Speaker 33 All there, Solid Sound Festival.

Speaker 10 Go to solidsoundfestival.com for tickets to the whole thing or a single day ticket or whatever you want to do.

Speaker 9 It would be so much fun to see Judge John Hodgman listeners there.

Speaker 11 I totally guarantee that you will see Monty Belmonte around there too, because he is a big part of the festival as well.

Speaker 6 Jesse, what do you have going on?

Speaker 1 I have some really great guests on Bullseye. A lot of Judge John Hodgman listeners probably already know that I host the NPR show Bullseye with Jesse Thorne.

Speaker 1 It's a long-form interview show with people from the world of arts and culture.

Speaker 1 This week, I have Zucker Abram Zucker,

Speaker 1 the directors and writers of the airplane, of Airplane, of the Naked Gun movies, of Police Squad, of Top Secret, some of the scary scary movies,

Speaker 1 some of the like literal, funniest things that have ever existed in show business. They are the sweetest, most hilarious dudes.

Speaker 1 John, you know, they built themselves a theater in Madison, Wisconsin to start their careers.

Speaker 1 Then, when they moved to LA, they took it apart, put it in a truck, drove it to LA, and rebuilt it into a rehab center. And yeah, like a halfway house.
And

Speaker 1 then

Speaker 7 they named their show,

Speaker 1 they performed their My Nose.

Speaker 1 And the reason is that they knew that if they named it My Nose, the theater listing in the Los Angeles Times would say, My nose runs continuously.

Speaker 57 Nice.

Speaker 1 Also, one of them had a license plate. He drove a Chevy, and he had a license plate that said Bob's MG.

Speaker 1 And then people would drive up next to him and, you know, shout to him, hey, that's not an MG. And he'd say, I'm not Bob.
And then he'd peel out.

Speaker 1 Anyway, they're so funny. And then, and then next week on the show, oh man, just two of my all-time favorites.
The absolute incredible genius, Miranda July, who has a beautiful and hilarious novel.

Speaker 1 I feel like being super funny is an underrated part of Miranda July's Ooeu.

Speaker 1 But the artist, novelist, filmmaker Miranda July, who has a hilarious novel coming out called All Fours.

Speaker 1 And then one of my favorite pals in all of comedy, like a total friend hero, level one, Tig Notaro,

Speaker 1 who is just

Speaker 1 Tig just owns. And it's a really

Speaker 1 good, deep conversation with both of those brilliant artists. So yeah, go subscribe to Bullseye and don't miss these great episodes, please.
We can use all the listeners that we can get.

Speaker 1 And if you listen to them and you like them, please recommend them to somebody.

Speaker 12 You know what I say about Tig Notaro?

Speaker 28 What's that?

Speaker 52 Tip top. Tip top tig.

Speaker 44 Tig rules.

Speaker 1 Tig is the best. Anytime you're thinking a good thought about Tig Notaro and you're like,

Speaker 1 you shouldn't meet your heroes, or like, oh, those shall only disappoint me or whatever. Nah, tig rules.
Tig rules. Yeah, no reservations.

Speaker 1 Okay. Let's get back to the show.

Speaker 32 Jesse Thorne, I believe we have another case to hear, hear, right?

Speaker 16 Yeah,

Speaker 16 we do. We do have a question, though.
What's that? I can't help but notice that next to our pizza, which it makes perfect sense to have pizza on stage during a podcast recording.

Speaker 16 Why is there a mailbox here?

Speaker 20 Oh, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 61 This was here when we came in. I presume it's part of the theater thing, maybe a union thing.

Speaker 15 I asked if we could move it.

Speaker 11 They said no, they couldn't.

Speaker 3 And so I just said, okay, we'll just

Speaker 52 have the mailbox on stage.

Speaker 45 I don't know why there would be a mailbox on stage.

Speaker 16 Wait a minute.

Speaker 16 Hold on a minute.

Speaker 16 I'd recognize those minions shorts anywhere, Judge Hodgman.

Speaker 34 What are you doing?

Speaker 28 Checking your mail. What?

Speaker 65 Is that Rob Thomas from the Capitol Times?

Speaker 16 It's Rob Thomas from the Valentine.

Speaker 16 We invited Rob on the show and we asked him, did you bring your minion shorts? And he said, I brought a number of options. Yeah, we went minion shorts.
Hello, Madison.

Speaker 65 So Rob

Speaker 17 writes features for the Capitol Times.

Speaker 27 Wrote a very nice article about us in the newspaper, which was very kind of you.

Speaker 23 Also, we mentioned that we ruled against you with extreme prejudice

Speaker 19 earlier in the podcast.

Speaker 20 And here you are again. And you're still wearing those minion shorts.

Speaker 14 Do you still go out and wear them, even though I told you not to?

Speaker 66 No, that's why I get my mail delivered here because I'm not allowed to go out to the mailbox at home.

Speaker 16 Right.

Speaker 14 And is there a thing as such a thing as Madison pizza or Wisconsin-style pizza?

Speaker 66 So,

Speaker 66 whatever that thing Matt made, that was the pizza, the turducken pizza burger, like that is, I almost missed my cue because I've been thinking about that thing the whole time.

Speaker 66 My second choice would be probably the mac and cheese pizza at Ian's pizza.

Speaker 17 Mac and cheese pizza.

Speaker 66 No sauce, just like cheese and bread and cheese and, you know.

Speaker 23 And Mac at some point.

Speaker 16 And Mac, right? Okay, good. Yeah.
Yeah. So wait, there's no sauce on the mac and cheese pizza? I don't think so.
And there's layers upon layers?

Speaker 66 No, it's just a lot of it. Yeah.

Speaker 16 Okay. Yeah.
I love it. You know what I was thinking about Chicago style pizza, the deep dish pizza? No.
I was thinking it is proof that in the Midwest, anything can be turned into a casserole.

Speaker 50 That's true.

Speaker 28 That's true.

Speaker 24 You have a favorite casserole, Rob?

Speaker 65 Do people put tater tots on top of casserole here or no?

Speaker 16 Oh, heck yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 67 Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah.

Speaker 44 Yeah.

Speaker 46 It's okay. You can say hell yeah in front of the child.

Speaker 16 Is that all right?

Speaker 10 Yeah, you just went to the bar.

Speaker 16 Sorry.

Speaker 10 How'd it go?

Speaker 36 Thumbs up, says the child.

Speaker 10 Yeah, that's an important thing to remember, right?

Speaker 28 Always tip your bartenders.

Speaker 16 and start planting those seeds early for exactly 2025 2035 yeah always tip your bartenders always tater tot your casserole so we do have another case to hear right we do that means i'm gonna have to go back to my chambers i'm afraid yeah i think it is but rob will you stick around and weigh in with some madison style wisdom i would love to judge other people's choices right now wonderful

Speaker 34 You deserve to. Thank you.

Speaker 47 I'll go away now.

Speaker 16 Please welcome to the stage Joe and Allison.

Speaker 10 Our case, Badgering the Witness.

Speaker 16 Joe brings the case against his friend Allison. Joe claims to live on the east side of Madison,

Speaker 16 but whenever he mentions this, Allison tells him and everyone listening that he's wrong. She says he lives on the north side.

Speaker 16 Who's right? Who's wrong? It's the most emotionally intense response we've ever gotten to.

Speaker 16 Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Speaker 2 Well, the smart money's on Harlem, and the moon is in the street, and the shadow boys are breaking all the laws.

Speaker 2 And you're east of Eastside, Madison, and the wind is making speeches, and the rain sounds like a round of applause.

Speaker 2 Well, Napoleon is weeping.

Speaker 16 Wow. See, there's always a second part.

Speaker 3 This invisible fiancé is in the mirror,

Speaker 2 and the band is going home.

Speaker 20 It's raining hammers, it's raining nails.

Speaker 2 It's true, there's nothing left for him down here.

Speaker 2 And it's time,

Speaker 2 time,

Speaker 2 And it's time,

Speaker 2 time,

Speaker 16 time. Don't touch me in these circumstances.

Speaker 34 It's time,

Speaker 22 time,

Speaker 2 time that you love.

Speaker 10 And it's time,

Speaker 22 time.

Speaker 16 Let's go some time.

Speaker 3 Billet, Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Speaker 16 What do you think Tom Waits ate when he was 17 that caused this?

Speaker 24 I think he probably took $20 to the bar and said, I'll see you in 12 years.

Speaker 16 Joe Allison, please rise, raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God, or whatever.

Speaker 56 I do.

Speaker 68 I do.

Speaker 16 Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that it will probably only encourage him to do that in every other city on our entire tour?

Speaker 56 Yes.

Speaker 16 Yes. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Speaker 14 It's truly one of my favorite songs, and I did not do it justice.

Speaker 20 But in any case, Joe and Allison, you may be seated for immediate summary judgment.

Speaker 26 One of your favorites.

Speaker 27 Can I either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Speaker 4 It's probably going to be pretty easy.

Speaker 33 Allison, you guess first.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 56 I'm going to guess a Tom Waits cover

Speaker 56 of the second verse of the theme song to the Jeffersons.

Speaker 3 I'm really searching hard for the lyrics to that song.

Speaker 16 Moving on up to

Speaker 22 Lisa.

Speaker 33 But that's the chorus, not the verse.

Speaker 3 I was trying to think of the verses.

Speaker 16 I think Joe might get this one because he stole Tom Waite's hat.

Speaker 33 Yeah, Joe's wearing a little pork pie hat.

Speaker 29 Can you guess?

Speaker 68 If it was the last one, I would have known because that song was on my daughter's like bedtime playlist?

Speaker 18 But really, yeah.

Speaker 16 What are you trying to do to her?

Speaker 32 Your daughter's bedtime playlist.

Speaker 46 Since birth, yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh, wowie, Sally.

Speaker 16 You were concerned she'd grow up to live somewhere other than a flop house?

Speaker 68 She loves the low, growly voice.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 68 So I'm going to take another song from our playlist that I'm sure you've previewed. So I'm going to say Bob Dylan, Froggy Went to Courten.

Speaker 17 Bob Dylan, Froggy went to Corton.

Speaker 44 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Remember how we were saying they're all Tom Waits songs

Speaker 2 on the tour?

Speaker 13 You want to give another guess or is that?

Speaker 33 All right, it's fine.

Speaker 37 All guesses are wrong.

Speaker 36 Guess what it was called?

Speaker 41 Time.

Speaker 33 Time by Tom Waits on the Rain Dogs album.

Speaker 25 My favorite Tom Waits song.

Speaker 27 And I mean it, Jesse.

Speaker 3 But alas, now we must hear your case.

Speaker 14 So who seeks justice in my fake court?

Speaker 68 I do.

Speaker 51 And you and you are Joe, is that right?

Speaker 68 That's correct.

Speaker 42 Now, Joe, you say that you live in East Madison.

Speaker 68 Actually, I say I live on the East Side of Madison.

Speaker 25 On the East Side? You know what?

Speaker 34 I don't care.

Speaker 16 Because I want to know about your Mitsubishi Delicates.

Speaker 2 Because I heard a little rumor.

Speaker 23 You know, this is called the Van Freaks Road Show.

Speaker 15 We've named the tour after Jesse and my mutual love for the Antiques Road Show and the Mitsubishi Delica Japanese Market-only Adventure Van, which is a very cool car.

Speaker 33 And I heard it on fairly good authority that you have one and you may have driven it here.

Speaker 68 Yeah, it's sitting out back.

Speaker 48 It's sitting out back.

Speaker 3 Do we have a photo of it?

Speaker 22 Oh,

Speaker 22 wow.

Speaker 14 So, Allison, obviously I'm incredibly biased to Joe. He's got Tom Waits on his daughter's playlist.

Speaker 15 Even though your guess and joke was really, really good, he brought a delica to the show.

Speaker 24 He brought Adelica

Speaker 14 to the podcast fight, right?

Speaker 29 That's pretty heavy duty.

Speaker 3 Why is he wrong?

Speaker 14 You got to really convince me.

Speaker 55 Why is he wrong when he says he's from the east side of Madison?

Speaker 2 Because he's from the north side of Madison.

Speaker 28 What's the difference?

Speaker 49 What are we talking about?

Speaker 52 What makes Joe's neighborhood north side rather than east side?

Speaker 56 So, as you stated earlier, Madison is an isthmus.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 56 Yes, we have a lake to the north, a lake to the south, and central Madison is right in between.

Speaker 17 Yes, let's take a look at a map.

Speaker 11 For those of you who may not live here, that's a really nice map.

Speaker 23 That's a cool isthmus.

Speaker 4 I can really see the two

Speaker 4 lakes there.

Speaker 56 Yes, and if you notice the red dot to the northern part of the map,

Speaker 56 that would be where Joe's house is.

Speaker 3 Oh, good. Let's dots him.

Speaker 43 Can we get cross streets up there?

Speaker 56 Yes, I made an inset that shows one block from his house is North Street.

Speaker 48 Oh, is that the traditional debarcation line of

Speaker 52 Northside?

Speaker 56 So to give a little description, Madison is an isthmus, like I said. It is bisected by Washington Avenue.

Speaker 56 And once you are out of central Madison, if you are north of Washington Avenue, you live on the North Side.

Speaker 41 Rob,

Speaker 4 obviously,

Speaker 11 there's a lot of high dudgeon here around this.

Speaker 34 What am I missing?

Speaker 17 What is the cultural context of Northside versus Eastside?

Speaker 66 This is the most Madison case I've ever heard of in my entire life.

Speaker 66 In Madison, you can drive 10 minutes to another part of town, and yet people are so tribal about whether they're from the Northside or from the East Side. And don't get me started on the Westsiders.

Speaker 66 So it is very important for you to know where you're from and where, you know, what is the connotation of the east side?

Speaker 36 Is that a cool neighborhood?

Speaker 6 Is that a

Speaker 66 east side?

Speaker 32 Like, is it the kind of place where

Speaker 2 guys would have beards and glasses and cool little hats and little

Speaker 16 short-sleeved shirts and they put tom weights on their dog's playlist kind of place? That's more Northside, I think.

Speaker 2 Oh, interesting.

Speaker 66 Eastside is more...

Speaker 66 If you find an aging hippie in Madison, he has an Eastside Eastside address for sure.

Speaker 44 Oh, all right. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Interesting.

Speaker 24 How do you, Allison, does that describe it, would you say?

Speaker 56 Well, I feel like the East Side does have a reputation for being progressive. It's kind of the hip area, I would say.

Speaker 28 And what does the North Side have a reputation for?

Speaker 56 I love the North Side. I don't know if the North Side has an aspiration.

Speaker 27 As long as Joe stays there, you love the North Side.

Speaker 56 The North Side is lucky to have Joe. Joe's a wonderful human being who lives on the North Side.
They are lucky to have him.

Speaker 56 The north side is up and coming. It's great.
It has a lot of new restaurants.

Speaker 56 It's lovely.

Speaker 10 Come on.

Speaker 24 You're trying to consign him to this place.

Speaker 42 Why is it important that Joe recognize he's not on the east side?

Speaker 33 Does Northside have a character of its own aside from up and coming and lovely and the place where Joe lives?

Speaker 56 Joe, do you want to share?

Speaker 15 Joe, tell me why it's important to you, at least theoretically, to live on the east side.

Speaker 68 I mean, the name of my neighborhood is Emerson East.

Speaker 31 So, I mean,

Speaker 68 I just go by what I'm told my neighborhood is. So it's a vibe for sure.

Speaker 33 Okay, go on.

Speaker 69 Tell me about it. It's a vibe.

Speaker 68 Lots of dogs, neighborhood cats.

Speaker 16 So just the presence of pets.

Speaker 39 But a lot of pets.

Speaker 69 An excessive amount of pets.

Speaker 33 Would you agree that, Allison, where do you live?

Speaker 56 On the near east side.

Speaker 16 Hold on, John.

Speaker 16 I got to dive into this pet thing. Okay.

Speaker 16 I'll eat a pepperoni. I got to tell you, Joe, a lot of dogs, a lot of cats is not a vibe.
A vibe is a lot of iguanas on guys' shoulders.

Speaker 14 Now, you just said that you were on the near east side, and some people want bananas.

Speaker 45 How many east sides are there?

Speaker 3 There's the near east side.

Speaker 37 There's the far east side.

Speaker 3 Yeah. There's the sub-east side.

Speaker 39 No, no, no.

Speaker 3 There's the little east side.

Speaker 41 No?

Speaker 56 You got near east and you got east.

Speaker 14 You got near east and you got east.

Speaker 35 What's the difference between those two?

Speaker 56 Near east is still really on isthmus proper, so closer to downtown.

Speaker 15 Both of these neighborhoods are off isthmus.

Speaker 5 Oh, no, I'm on the isthmus.

Speaker 10 You're on the isthmus because near east, I can't say this word anymore because I just ate a piece of pizza by accident.

Speaker 56 I'm just 10 blocks away from where we are now.

Speaker 23 You're just 10.

Speaker 2 Okay, where are we now?

Speaker 56 We're central. We're right downtown.

Speaker 2 Central. Okay, got it.

Speaker 51 Joe, you mentioned that there are cats and dogs

Speaker 14 where you live, thus making it the east side.

Speaker 68 There's more. There's more.

Speaker 16 I can give you more.

Speaker 4 I do believe that we have some pet-related evidence that was sent in just for funsies.

Speaker 16 Hold up, for real?

Speaker 6 Yes, for real.

Speaker 29 You may have to get to the foot of the stage to be able to see it properly.

Speaker 32 Tell us about the pet we are about to see.

Speaker 56 This is my cat, Roger, who lives on the near east side with me.

Speaker 33 Oh, you're.

Speaker 33 Stop, what's he doing?

Speaker 24 Let the record show that Jesse Thorne is now sitting in the front row laughing his

Speaker 16 face off and he wants to know what is Roger doing.

Speaker 56 Chilling on the near east side.

Speaker 22 Chilling on the Near East side.

Speaker 10 Come back, I need my bailiff back.

Speaker 22 And this is more evidence that you live on the Near East side, because obviously cats live there.

Speaker 14 Jesse, I hate to say it, but I think we need to advance the slide or else we won't be able to pay attention to anything.

Speaker 16 Do you see he's going, oh.

Speaker 32 He's just chilling on the Near East, you know.

Speaker 16 Okay, I've got to advance the slide.

Speaker 6 You know how Roger does it.

Speaker 32 Joe, do you have a dog or a cat?

Speaker 31 I do.

Speaker 34 Oh, okay.

Speaker 69 Yeah, I have a cat. Where's the photo?

Speaker 3 Forget it. That's a real Northside move, Joe.

Speaker 14 If you were Eastside, you would totally be sending in a slide five weeks in advance, like Allison did.

Speaker 52 Good job, Allison.

Speaker 33 Allison,

Speaker 27 who's lived in Madison longer, you or Joe?

Speaker 52 I have. You have.
By how long?

Speaker 56 I have lived here since 2001.

Speaker 34 Oh,

Speaker 33 that's very good.

Speaker 26 And Joe, are you a native of Madisonian?

Speaker 44 No.

Speaker 41 No.

Speaker 51 When did you move here?

Speaker 68 I moved here in 2012.

Speaker 33 Oh, okay.

Speaker 14 Still a long time, but still pretty Northside come lately, I would say.

Speaker 32 When I keep calling you Northside Joe,

Speaker 52 How does that make you feel?

Speaker 69 It infuriates me. Go on.

Speaker 2 Search those feelings.

Speaker 23 I still don't understand why any of this matters.

Speaker 14 I mean, I understand that neighborhoods matter, but I don't understand the context of the neighborhoods.

Speaker 68 So only in the east side,

Speaker 68 when after I raked all my leaves to the front yard, would my neighbor take my leaves from my front yard and dump them in their own backyard?

Speaker 69 That is an east side move.

Speaker 35 And you're saying that's happening up there on East North Street or wherever you live.

Speaker 69 Yes, yes.

Speaker 44 All right.

Speaker 16 What does that mean?

Speaker 39 Forget it, Jesse.

Speaker 16 It's a Northside thing.

Speaker 57 Right?

Speaker 16 Why are people stealing leaves?

Speaker 16 What kind of weird set-tripping is going on in Madison, Wisconsin that involves leaf theft?

Speaker 14 Mulch is the answer from the crowd.

Speaker 11 We're going to have a good time in mob justice, I can tell.

Speaker 24 Let the record show some people in the crowd yelled, mulch. Is that the answer?

Speaker 53 Yes, that's great.

Speaker 25 They want that sweet mulch. Yes.

Speaker 14 No mulch is better than the north side mulch.

Speaker 45 I'm sorry I'm making you so mad.

Speaker 24 Please.

Speaker 24 You are friends, correct?

Speaker 14 Colleagues, friends, pals?

Speaker 3 Very good friends.

Speaker 15 Very good friends.

Speaker 3 For a lot of people. And yet, the spite persists.

Speaker 55 What do your mutual friends say about Joe's claim to Eastside Dom?

Speaker 34 Joe?

Speaker 29 I know what you're going to say, Allison.

Speaker 68 I mean we could ask Allison's boyfriend.

Speaker 34 All right.

Speaker 3 Allison's boyfriend.

Speaker 27 No, we don't have him here.

Speaker 53 What would Allison's boyfriend say about it, Joe?

Speaker 68 I mean, in many of our chat, he has said, yeah, Joe clearly lives on the East Side.

Speaker 27 And any other friends?

Speaker 14 I mean, but, you know, obviously Allison's boyfriend is.

Speaker 49 He's on the north side.

Speaker 37 Who's that?

Speaker 56 That would be my friend Jory.

Speaker 50 Okay.

Speaker 43 Joe, did you bring any people to support you?

Speaker 68 Yes, that little one with the glasses right there.

Speaker 32 Little one with the glasses?

Speaker 26 And this human being has a name?

Speaker 69 Scout. Scout.

Speaker 10 Yes.

Speaker 45 Scout, can you raise your hand just so I can see?

Speaker 34 Okay.

Speaker 14 Oh, Scout, I have a feeling that you're also biased.

Speaker 24 Scout, let me just ask you a question.

Speaker 14 Do you have Tom Waits on your playlist?

Speaker 46 Yes.

Speaker 34 Okay.

Speaker 16 Scout, did Joe tell you there's going to be a rumble later?

Speaker 29 Yeah, it's a real Northside side story yeah

Speaker 15 tom waits does a cover of there's a place for us which is great it goes like this

Speaker 18 i gotta ride in a

Speaker 53 minivan with this guy yeah that's right we're gonna get out in that delical later and i'm gonna sing some sweet songs to you uh joe what what do you have against the north side why can't you just say i live in the north side

Speaker 68 I don't have anything against the north side. I just don't go to

Speaker 66 okay, Rob, help me out here.

Speaker 14 Is this a clear-cut case or not?

Speaker 65 You heard the streets they're talking about: east-northwest Avenue, south, east, near-east

Speaker 53 boulevard, or whatever. I don't get it.

Speaker 66 I mean, this is clearly to me a cultural dispute, masquerading as a geographical dispute.

Speaker 16 Describe the cultural difference. What are the cultural states?

Speaker 66 Well, the east side would be

Speaker 66 sort of a progressive hippie culture.

Speaker 10 And historically progressive hippie culture.

Speaker 66 Yeah, it was like the west side.

Speaker 39 That's where it happens. Yes.

Speaker 66 Right. And then the west side.

Speaker 16 It's a sort of mulching community.

Speaker 39 Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 67 It's a mulch forward community.

Speaker 66 Well, the west side was like where all the university professors were leading.

Speaker 16 So also progressive, but much more money over there. Sure, right.

Speaker 26 Brandon Berkin shared a liberal.

Speaker 10 There you go.

Speaker 16 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 66 And then the north side is a fairly new, I mean, the Oscar Meyer plant is the former Oscar Meyer plant. Right.

Speaker 67 So it's a very working-class neighborhood.

Speaker 53 Right, because Oscar Meyer was headquartered here for more than 50 years. Correct.

Speaker 14 Making non-sandwich hot dogs.

Speaker 16 Let's not start. Okay.

Speaker 11 Whoa, you want to take beef with my hot dog?

Speaker 16 No, no, no, no.

Speaker 66 For your sake, I didn't want to get pulled into that.

Speaker 27 Oh, no, no, no. I can take care of myself.

Speaker 33 I'm from Park Slope.

Speaker 46 You know I can take care of myself.

Speaker 66 Is that East or West Park Slope?

Speaker 39 South Slope. Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 39 The real slope.

Speaker 66 And then, yeah, North is now becoming kind of the hip cool new neighborhood with lots of new great restaurants, North Street.

Speaker 14 It sounds like exactly the kind of place a wonderful poser like Joe would want to live.

Speaker 32 Why do you think he's reaching over to the east side?

Speaker 66 I don't know. That's what surprises me.

Speaker 14 Do you think, based on Joe's home's position on the map, which we revealed to the entire audience,

Speaker 24 that

Speaker 26 he is empirically in one neighborhood or the other, or is he in a Twilight Zone between the two?

Speaker 66 I think he's in the DMZ between North and East.

Speaker 16 Joe,

Speaker 16 why is this

Speaker 16 important to you? Why do you care so much about which neighborhood you live in? Because I get the feeling it's not just geography.

Speaker 68 No, I mean, for example, there's a co-op, Willie Street North and Willie Street East.

Speaker 68 I go to the east side, Willie Street Co-op.

Speaker 43 Yes, I understand that you have all kinds of arguments for why you live in the east side.

Speaker 55 My bailiff asked the probing question: why do you care?

Speaker 68 So that way people know where I'm from.

Speaker 16 Why do you want people to know where you're from? Because they ask and I say, where are you from this? Right?

Speaker 16 There's a great Vince Staples song called North North. It's about how he's from North Long Beach.

Speaker 16 Now, when he says he's from North Long Beach, he's not just trying to do geographic clarification.

Speaker 16 There is deep emotional meaning to the fact that he is from North Long Beach. And if someone suggested that he was from the city of commerce, not all that far away, he'd be pretty upset.
Yeah.

Speaker 16 So why is it that you want to be so clear about this?

Speaker 16 And

Speaker 16 you can't tell me that it's so that people don't get lost on the way to your house or whatever.

Speaker 68 No, I mean, the leafs are just an example, but there's chickens, there's just all sorts of like.

Speaker 69 That's the answer, Jesse.

Speaker 39 There's chickens.

Speaker 14 There's east side things like chickens and cats and dogs.

Speaker 46 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Let's try it at another angle, Jesse.

Speaker 39 Yeah, thanks. Allison.

Speaker 10 Why is it you're you're friends with Joe?

Speaker 34 Yeah. Good friends.
Yes. You like him?

Speaker 25 Yes.

Speaker 42 Why is it so important for you to keep him out of your precious east side and to gatekeep this neighborshood so hard?

Speaker 56 Maybe because it kicks him off when I say he's from the east side.

Speaker 47 Maybe because it annoys him.

Speaker 14 Is the east side moving? Is it like pizza, a state of mind?

Speaker 29 Yes. Yes, it is.

Speaker 15 Is it creeping to the north side? Is the east side ethos creeping to the north?

Speaker 45 Yes.

Speaker 28 And is Joe taking that with him and destroying what was the north side and replacing it with Joe?

Speaker 12 And the east?

Speaker 56 No, I said the north side is lucky to have Joe, and I believe that.

Speaker 34 All right,

Speaker 14 Madisonians, this is not going to affect my decision, but you have been trying to yell your opinions at me for a while.

Speaker 3 We're going to do this by

Speaker 57 yelling.

Speaker 6 Thank you.

Speaker 4 Those of you don't do it yet, I'm going to point at you.

Speaker 14 If you believe that Joe lives on the east side, yell east when I point at you.

Speaker 50 Well done.

Speaker 21 If you believe that Joe lives on the north side, yell north when I point at you.

Speaker 52 50-50.

Speaker 32 I mean, I think that was down to the person.

Speaker 24 That was 50-50.

Speaker 24 I'm sure you'll all explain it to me later, but I think I've heard everything I I need to in order to make my decision.

Speaker 11 I'll be back in a moment to give you my verdict.

Speaker 16 Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Speaker 16 Joe, how are you feeling about your chances?

Speaker 68 I'm feeling pretty good. I'm feeling confident.

Speaker 16 Why is that? You seem like you're talking yourself into that.

Speaker 68 Because there's only one true east side, and that's where I live. I just can't can't think of it any other way.

Speaker 68 The east side welcomes you.

Speaker 45 She just wants your mulch, Joe.

Speaker 16 Allison, how are you feeling about your chances?

Speaker 56 Very, very confident.

Speaker 16 Is that just because it's been revealed this evening that Judge John Hodgman is a compulsive friend annoyer?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 16 please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Speaker 55 It says here that if I were to rule in your favor, Joe, that not only do I rule that you are in the East Side, but Allison has to introduce you as Joe from the East Side.

Speaker 68 Yes, that's correct.

Speaker 14 AKA East Side Joe.

Speaker 3 AKA Joe East.

Speaker 46 I'll take it. Yeah, a.k.a.

Speaker 32 Too much mulch, Joe.

Speaker 16 Don't be fooled by the money that I've got. I'm still Joe from the block.

Speaker 14 The East Side block, exactly.

Speaker 53 And Allison, you want me to rule that he lives on the North side?

Speaker 29 One of the things that I think is complicated is that I don't even know what the hell you're talking about.

Speaker 38 You know, and unfortunately, I put this on both of you.

Speaker 42 Now, maybe the issues are a little too complex or inflammatory to really go into the depths of why the east side is the east side and the north side is the north side.

Speaker 25 And I respect that.

Speaker 14 We're a podcast.

Speaker 11 We're here in the middle of the afternoon on a Saturday.

Speaker 25 But nor were you able to effectively, Joe, argue why it was emotionally important to you to associate with the neighborhood that your friend Allison lives in.

Speaker 10 And I guess other members of your friend group too.

Speaker 14 That you might feel like the outlier, perhaps, the one that they don't fully accept because of your address that we saw printed on a screen for everybody.

Speaker 36 I mean,

Speaker 15 that's a powerful emotional argument that you could have made, but chose not to.

Speaker 3 Instead, you said there are chickens there.

Speaker 33 Which is probably meaningful to a Madisonian.

Speaker 14 Yeah, chickens are probably a real East Side thing.

Speaker 45 But to me, your judge, John Hodgman, it means nothing.

Speaker 51 You didn't come prepared to make your argument about why you belong in the East Side.

Speaker 23 Nor, Allison, did you come prepared to make an argument about why you should be so cruel as to keep your friend arm's length or side's length away from you?

Speaker 21 So all I am left with, unfortunately, is the angry wisdom of the mob.

Speaker 27 I went to the crowd and I asked them their opinion, and I truly felt, I mean, Jesse, Rob, you heard them yell, did one, right down the middle, right?

Speaker 27 Chop chop, as they say in Texas Hold'em poker, right down the middle, split.

Speaker 15 And therefore, I can only conclude that the wisest decision is that, Joe,

Speaker 36 I don't know where you live,

Speaker 27 but it is absolutely Joe Town, Wisconsin.

Speaker 10 That you define your own neighborhood that is neither east nor west, nor north, nor south, nor central, nor prime isthmus, or whatever the various neighborhoods are here.

Speaker 35 You live in Mulchville, Madison.

Speaker 45 And I'm going to call you not Eastside Joe, but Mulchie Joe from now on.

Speaker 13 This is the sound of a gap.

Speaker 16 Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is home. Alice and Joe, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
And thanks to you too, Rob Thomas.

Speaker 16 Rob, if people want to read more of your work, including but not limited to your delightful interview with Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman, where can they go?

Speaker 66 Please go to captimes.com. and thank you for putting up with this.
I had the best time.

Speaker 3 And support local journalism.

Speaker 66 Definitely, please.

Speaker 66 Yeah.

Speaker 47 Thank you, Rob.

Speaker 1 That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Our thanks to Reddit users, Misfortune Machine, and funny film fan for naming the case in this episode.

Speaker 1 Make sure to follow us on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman and on TikTok and YouTube at judgejohnhodgman pod.

Speaker 17 And may I say thank you to good God Lizzie Lemon over there on Apple Podcast.

Speaker 38 Gave us a five star rating.

Speaker 41 That's pronounced good God Lizzie Lemon.

Speaker 10 Excuse me, you're absolutely right. Yeah.
Good God, Lizzie Lemon.

Speaker 50 Over there in Apple Podcast, they gave us a five-star rating and said, quote, as a criminal defense attorney, wow, it is delightful to listen to the judge adjudicate disputes fairly, compassionately, and in accordance with the court's precedent.

Speaker 12 Even silly disputes often involve finding the crux that implicates how we all treat each other, gender roles, autonomy, and other important considerations. There is genuine wisdom here.

Speaker 39 End quote.

Speaker 8 Thank you very much.

Speaker 10 Good God, Lizzie Lemon, Esquire.

Speaker 12 And if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, why don't you give us a rating and review? Really does help new listeners find the show, as does simply telling your friends wherever you see them.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. And look, Apple Podcast isn't the only way to listen to our program.
There's lots of great ways. You know what I use? I use Overcast.

Speaker 37 Overcast.

Speaker 1 Just saying, I love Overcast. Love that.
Podcast Addict. A lot of people like that.
There's a lot of good apps to listen to your favorite podcasts on.

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Speaker 1 When you're at a cocktail party, say, ah, I heard a great thing on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. They'll say, what's that?

Speaker 1 You'll say, well, wait until you hear about these cousins where one of them has five specific properties he needs to own.

Speaker 33 And by the way, if you're at a cocktail cocktail party, why didn't you invite me?

Speaker 40 I like a cocktail party.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Invite me to an It's It party, please. The Judge John Hodgman podcast created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne.
Our touring producer was Laura Valk. This episode recorded by Stephen Cologne.

Speaker 1 Natty Lopez is our social media manager. AJ McKeon is our editor.
Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Speaker 1 I saw actually that Laura's band Scout had some new music there on Instagram at Scout Out Loud, S-K-O-U-T

Speaker 10 Out Loud.

Speaker 1 Really, really beautiful guitar pop is how I would call it.

Speaker 6 Like a Fleetwood Mackey vibe.

Speaker 28 They're wonderful. Scout, S-K-O-U-T, Scout Out Loud.

Speaker 12 Instagram. Check out the new song in Morning.

Speaker 10 Scout Out Loud.

Speaker 1 We'll talk to you next time on the Judge Town Hodgman podcast.

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