Van Freaks Roadshow Live in Chicago

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm not Bale of Jesse Thorne.

It's me, your Judge John Hodgman, letting you know that this week's episode was recorded live on stage at ParkWest in Chicago, Illinois.

This was the first time on our Van Freaks Roadshow that we actually had a guest from GBH's antiques roadshow, specifically Deborah Miller, a great textile and clothing appraiser, and she was amazing.

We had a blast.

You'll hear all about it when you get there to the stage at the Park West Chicago.

So, why am I still talking?

Let's go.

Chicago, you came to us seeking justice, and we came to you to deliver it right here at the world-famous Park West.

The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Susan and Dunn.

Tonight's case, Drule of Law.

Susan brings the case against her boyfriend, Doug.

Doug licks his fingers when he's eating.

Susan can't stand it.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Broke a bottle on Morgan's head and I've been stepping on the devil's tail.

Crossed the stripe of full moon's head through the bars of a Cuban jail.

Licky fingers on a purple knife.

Flamingo drinking from a cocktail glass.

I'm on the law with someone else's wife.

Admire the view from up atop of the mass.

Hey, little bird, fly away home.

Swear them on in, Bale of Trissy Thorne.

Hey, little bird, fly away home.

Swear them on in, Baile of Trissy Thorn.

Hop!

Is it going to be every stop on the

stop?

Okay.

Every stop, one bit, every stop.

Susan and Doug, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that tonight he's extra saucy?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Susan and Doug, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom?

Doug, you look too eager.

I think Doug's got it.

Stand by, Doug.

I can tell by your glasses that you got it.

You know, you know, people who know know.

Susan, what's your guess?

I am speechless.

You want to hear it again?

Yes.

Boo, stop.

No,

don't encourage it.

I have to do like 10

shows on this tour.

What is your guess, if I may?

Is it a rap?

Is it a rap?

I mean, it wasn't as melodic as it could have been, but.

No.

Do you want to take another guess?

No.

It's a song.

Okay.

I'll just put down song.

Non-rap song.

Okay.

All right.

Doug?

Well, that screws me up because I was going to guess finger licking by the beastie boys.

Finger licking by the beastie boys would have been a really good guess

if I were not using the cultural references on all of these stops on our tour to torture Jesse Thorne with my imitation of a particular recording artist.

All guesses are wrong.

The recording artist I'm speaking of, of course, is the great Tom Waits.

And that was my rather poor, but you are wonderful, by the way.

Everyone here were very good at clapping.

I mean, for a podcast crowd, that was amazing.

That was the first Tom Waits song I ever heard, which was Jockey Fullabourbin from Rain Dogs 1984.

Tom Waits Forever, Jesse.

As he said it himself, Tom Waits for No Man.

All right, now,

Susan.

Do you come to seek justice in this fake court?

Is that correct?

Yes, Your Honor.

What is the nature of your complaint?

The nature of my complaint is

finger licking on behalf of Doug.

Your finger licking?

You make her finger lick on your behalf, sir?

That's an idea.

Uh-huh.

What is that?

Personal care?

Personal care.

Personal care, yeah.

Personal care.

Commitment to lifelong learning.

Doug licks his fingers.

Is that correct?

Doug does lick his fingers.

When eating food, saucy food?

Yes.

And any other times?

Yes.

Like when?

Popcorn, tortilla chips, cupcakes.

Anytime he has something left on his fingers that's food.

It gets licked off.

Yes.

Doug, is this an accurate description, you finger licker?

Yes, it is.

It is.

Yes, it is.

You're proud of this?

I am proud of this.

Right.

Why are you proud of it?

Because we live in Chicago.

A finger-licking town?

Yeah, a finger-licking town.

Finger-licking good.

You know, God forbid you try and eat a stuffed pizza.

Are you from?

Are you from Chicago?

No, I'm actually from Mississippi.

Oh, okay.

Another friend creating

culture.

Fried chicken.

Sure.

Susan, are you from Chicago?

I'm from Toledo, Ohio.

From Toledo, Ohio.

Is there anything to be said for this contention that Chicago is a finger-licker city?

I mean, the food here is so good.

There is an argument.

Right.

But we also have other things to think about.

Such as.

Such as how beautiful the city is and how much we want.

Oh, I thought you were going to say germs, hygiene,

not thrusting out your loved one.

I was getting to that.

We want to be healthy enough to enjoy the city.

Right.

Sure enough.

Sure enough.

Okay, I understand.

How long have you been together?

Almost five years.

Almost five years?

And when did you first notice Doug licking his fingers?

About 18 months ago.

Wow.

You had a good run, Doug.

Doug,

were you biding your time?

Were you waiting till cheating?

Judge Hodgman, you haven't dated online, but from what I hear, you add one inch to your height and don't mention finger finger-licking.

You waited quite a while to reveal your finger-licking tendencies, didn't you, Doug?

I think I was doing it all along, and maybe she was just too blinded by beauty.

By beauty.

I'm going to go with that.

Susan, when do you first remember him licking his fingers?

Do you remember what he was eating?

I think he was eating tortilla chips.

Tortilla chips.

Not something that you would necessarily lick your fingers after.

I mean, they tend to get salty.

Yes, of course.

The fingers get salty.

Yeah, but I mean that's about it.

Right.

Okay.

And ribs, you say, you enjoy ribs?

I love ribs.

And do you lick your fingers when you eat ribs?

Definitely.

All right.

I'm going to need to see this in action.

We have some ribs from Twin Anchors

down the street.

And

Exhibit A is a half slab.

We asked for extra sauce.

Thank you.

And thank you.

You know, Susan, you can hold that platter for him so that he can really get in there.

I noticed, Doug, that that you're wearing khakis, which was a bad decision for today.

But I'd like to see you get in on some of those ribs right now.

Let me see what it is.

And you know, if you don't mind, eat it right on Mike, if you don't mind.

That would be terrific.

Thank you.

These are our own mics, so if we get a little.

These are good.

That was very, very, very, very brave of you.

Very, very brave of you to do on stage.

Hang on a second.

Wait, let me just

The judge is

now keep eating and keep licking your fingers.

Now that I've touched your hands, I want to see if there's any difference in your attitude.

You don't know where these have been.

I've been holding this microphone.

You don't know what my pre-show ritual is.

All right, very bright.

I just wanted to see.

Let the record show that he is licking his fingers with as much gusto after I touched and licked his thumb

as before.

And I would say,

wow, now he's asking the audience for applause with his saucy hands.

Let's get these ribs out of here.

I'm afraid they're stealing the show.

Live producer Laura Valk will take these away.

Thank you, Laura.

All right.

Doug was there trying to use the rib eating like

a costumed mascot would use a t-shirt gun.

Very, very, very, very dramatic, Doug.

Y'all ready for this?

this?

How are your fingers all clean?

All good.

You want to give them a little bit more?

Just to make sure?

Yeah.

Just to make sure.

Now you hear that expression of disgust.

Yeah.

None of these are people that you need to go home with.

What happened when, Susan, when you first noticed him licking his fingers after those tortilla chips, did you express your disgust then or did you wait 18 months?

I did not.

I wish I had, maybe, but I kind of put it into my brain file on Doug and kept it there.

Wait,

is this like Nixon's enemy list?

Yeah.

He had the CIA compile.

Maybe.

When did you first express your disgust?

Do you remember?

Actually, I think it was...

Today?

No, so it was over the summer.

Yeah.

When we were in the city.

Yeah.

The city of Chicago.

The city of Chicago.

I had received from my kids a very generous Mother's Day present of a gift certificate to Gene and Georgetti and the second city.

Oh.

And so we decided to use that sometime in the summer.

Right.

And we decided to actually make a staycation out of it.

Nice.

In the city.

Because you live outside of the city.

We live outside the city.

We love the city.

We just thought that that made the most sense.

It's the Pearl of Lake Michigan.

Correct.

And so what happened?

And so we spent a few days in the city.

We went to several different restaurants.

We went to hear some live music.

One night we went to Andy's, which is a jazz club.

It's one of my favorites.

And after.

You've been living in the Chicago Chamber of Commerce here.

You've buzz marketed so many different things so far.

Afterward, I was hungry, so I suggested we go to Italy, which is a restaurant.

Here we go.

Okay, keep going.

Sure.

And

we ordered some Bolognese.

I feel like I'm just getting pop-ups at this point.

So you went to Italy.

So we went to Italy.

we split a dish of Bolognese,

and somehow we started talking about limoncello

as a really great after-dinner liqueur.

Sure.

So you decided to get some limoncello.

We decided to buy some limoncello at Italy.

Okay, we know where you were.

We decided to bring the bottle home with us.

Sure.

How are you getting home?

We were getting home on the train.

On the train.

So we had some shopping bags, our luggage.

Right.

What was the brand of luggage?

To me?

No.

Away?

No.

Target, actually.

Target, okay.

A Chicago favorite.

The Target luggage.

We had some shopping bags, as I mentioned, and Doug had the bottle of limoncello.

The train was so crowded that we had to stand on the train, which meant that we had to hold one of the bars on the train.

Sure.

Famously, spotlessly clean.

Yeah.

Emphasis on very crowded train.

Sure.

Middle of July.

Middle of July.

It was hot out there.

A lot of sweating.

So we got off the train.

Yeah.

And as soon as we stepped onto the platform outside of the train doors, Doug put the shopping bag down that had the limoncello in it.

Right.

And he had seen, apparently, when he was on the train, that some of the drops of the limoncello had been leaking out of the side of the top.

The bottle had been leaking in the bag.

Yes.

Okay.

So he promptly wiped his fingers on the liqueur that was dripping down.

He wiped the side of the bottle to clean it with his hand.

He did.

And then what did he do with his hand?

Well, let me tell you.

What did he do with his hand, Susan?

First,

first he licked the fingers of one hand.

And I reacted.

I reacted.

Kind of stunned.

And then he looked at me.

Was this the hand he was using to hold the bar?

Yes.

And was there worse after that?

There was after I reacted.

Actually, Doug, I think you reacted too.

You kind of opened your eyes really wide and thought, did I just do that?

And then you looked at your other hand, which also had limoncello on it, and you licked it.

Right.

Because there was a chance, probably Doug wasn't sure which hand had I been using to hold the rail in the subway.

Maybe I licked the wrong hand.

Maybe I didn't get any of that sweet rail juice into my mouth.

I better do them both.

Is that not right, Doug?

Is that not right, Doug?

Don't wait for the translation.

Answer me.

I did not reach down and wipe the bottle.

Then why were you licking?

I reached down to put the top back on because I was afraid it would be.

What is it to do with anything?

Phil all over her new clothes, though.

Did you have

a cleaning up the bottle is no sin?

And in my defense, alcohol kills germs.

Apparently, this is a story everyone in Chicago has been telling themselves for a long time.

I don't mean to give Chicago notes on how to be a city, but you guys should think about opening some bars here.

Have you found it?

I mean, you'd probably wipe out the germs if you did.

I know the argument that alcohol kills germs.

I've had my share of malort.

It kills more than germs.

Yeah, it's pretty deadly.

Kills hopes for the future.

So, when Susan expressed her disgust, how did you feel, Doug?

I didn't feel any particular way, just knew that my other hand was sticky and we had a lot of things.

Yeah, but if your loved one is disgusted with you, what is your reaction?

This is a tough one.

I know what I should say.

But in that moment,

why don't you say what you think you should...

Okay, not one of your finest moments.

Not one of my finest moments.

But you've kept licking your fingers.

Can I plead the filth?

She came up with that.

I hold you both in contempt, of course.

How much money do you have in your pocket right now?

Do you have any cat?

What's that?

40 bucks.

That's your fine.

Give me 40 right now.

40.

Give it to me.

Plead the filth.

Here you go, Jesse.

That's 20 for you.

All right, Doug.

Let me ask you this question.

Yes.

Do you believe that Susan is a germaphobe?

I would say yes.

Do you believe that there is anything wrong with licking your fingers in the limoncello incident or any other incident?

Because alcohol.

Not in that incident.

I was off base on that one, but other food.

But even though she has told you that it is disgusting, you will want to continue licking your fingers in front of her.

Food, I can't make any promises.

I just.

That's what we're talking about, is food.

I don't know what other categories you're getting into at this point.

I knew this was not going to go well.

You feel that it's not, you're not capable of being lickless while eating food.

I'm not capable.

You are capable of that self.

Yes.

Is there any other hygiene issues that you want to bring up while you're here, Susan, about Doug?

No, he's actually a pretty neat guy, and I mean that on several different levels.

Yeah.

He seems, yeah.

You know what?

This is a case where your wordplay has paid off for you.

He is a neat guy, figuratively and literally.

He's got a nice dapper little jacket on.

I like his glasses.

He's got some cool tassel moccasins.

Everything's good.

He kind of looks like Griffin Dunn a little bit.

He does.

He looks like Griffin Dunn.

Doesn't he look like a little Griffin Dunn?

He's very handsome.

Exactly.

The only thing he's got is stuff on his fingers.

He's got saucy fingers.

But you don't want to live with that anymore.

If I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule?

Prohibit him from ever licking his fingers again?

I would prefer that he doesn't ever lick them again unless he's eating Twin Anchor ribs.

Carve out for ribs then.

Yes.

That was pretty gross, I have to say, when he was eating them before.

Fried chicken?

I think it's a matter of calculated risks.

What grosses you out about it so much?

The germiness, the perceived germiness, or the sound and sight of your man looking his thumb?

It's not the sound or the sight, really.

It's the perceived.

It's the perceived

where have your, what have your hands, where have they been?

And

where are they going?

Where are they going?

Okay.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to retire to my

limoncello hot tub, courtesy Danny DeVito, in my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Susan, how are you feeling about your chances here?

My chances, I think they're really good.

Just because Judge Hodgman is a germaphobe?

Yes.

How are you feeling, Doug?

Not good.

Not good at all.

Did you know that before when Susan was telling that story about the limoncello,

you were shaking your head with an expression on your face that could only be described as no peas, mommy, no peas.

I was unaware of that.

Okay.

That's just an FYI.

Noted.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and delivers his verdict.

So, Doug, first of all, I must rebuke you

with extreme prejudice.

You're running your fingers through your hair.

You got rib juice in your hair now, sir.

Is that how you get that wonderful Griffin-Dunn waviness in your hair?

It's all barbecue sauce.

Yeah, exactly.

I hold you in a certain rebuke because, you know,

I'm inclined to

worry about you, Doug.

The very beginning of this, you said that you didn't reveal your licking tendencies for 18 months into your relationship with Susan, which to me suggests that you know what you're doing is gross and you needed to hide it.

from her until she was emotionally entrapped by you.

And the sunk cost fallacy would keep her in the relationship with with you.

I thought I said she didn't notice for 18 months.

You thought she didn't notice for 18 months, but it took her 18 months to clue into this.

So whether she didn't notice or you were hiding it from her, I'll let that be ambiguous.

But the truth is, she really likes you a lot.

If her brain was unconsciously filtering out

on tortilla chips, of all things, sir.

That's just salt.

Do you ever just salt your fingers and eat it that way?

Give it a try.

I've done it.

It's good.

Because

I am,

in circumstances, absolutely a number one finger licker.

And not just number one, two, three, four, five, all the way up to ten.

I'll lick them all, Doug.

If I'm eating certain foods, you got to do it.

Don't you have to do it, Jesse?

You've got to do it, John.

You got to do it.

There are certain foods that you got to do it.

And I will say this also.

You know, obviously we're coming out of a time and still living in a time of wariness around contaminants and we're heightened our senses are heightened and appropriately so we should be more careful around each other in all kinds of ways not just in terms of the stuff that we're sneezing and coughing on one another or licking off the subway

subway turnstile or whatever it is you're up to doug

You do have to absolutely be hygienic if you're gonna and if you're gonna undertake finger licking.

And I will say this, Doug, I'm a finger licker, and I know a finger licker licker when I see one.

And you're a good finger licker.

Like, when I came over there after you had initially dug into those ribs, and I shook your hand, I felt mostly dry, smooth skin.

I didn't feel like I was, you know, shaking hands with your saliva or anything like that.

You did a good job.

But then you went ahead afterward and licked your fingers again.

You don't know where my hands have been, Doug.

Now, I'm going to tell you, they were washed, they were clean.

I'm not going to put you in danger as best as i can and you were probably amped up because you're on stage and you figured hosman probably wants me to suck his thumb

by proxy

that's what you probably so i'm gonna let i'm gonna let that pass

even though that's what you probably figured

susan this is a rare time when i'm gonna find in favor of the guy in a relationship like this i apologize

yeah really yeah well i mean you know if if you had said, it just sounds gross to me and looks gross to me.

And when I see the man of my life licking his fingers, it makes me want to vomit.

Then I would be like, you got to stop it, Doug.

You can't be making your partner want to vomit in front of you.

She's just worried about the germs.

And I think you should be worried about the germs because Doug obviously likes to act up and he likes to lick his fingers after other people touch his hands just for fun.

You got to calm down on that.

You understand?

And if you're in a situation where finger licking is appropriate, we're talking about fried chicken, we're talking about the ribs, we're talking about messy stuff.

You know, like you got to make sure you wash your hands thoroughly.

And Susan's got to see you do it before you do it.

And then you can go ahead and lick your fingers.

Lay off the tortilla chips.

Just leave that alone.

You don't have to do that.

Just wash your hands.

Your sodium is probably too high anyway.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules that result.

Susan, Doug, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Now, Chicago, we do have more justice to dispense, but first, we have some news.

Right.

So, the name of our tour is the Van Freaks Road Show.

You can see it right up there.

That's because of Jesse and my

mutual love.

of the television program on GBH Antiques Road Show, and also our mutual love of the Mitsubishi Delica Japanese market-only adventure van, because we have a very special guest.

Isn't that right, Jesse?

That is absolutely true.

We are so glad to have her with us tonight.

She's the roadshow's specialist in textiles, the only appraiser in the American Society of Appraisers to hold a designation in costumes and couture, which means clothes.

Clothes.

We're so lucky to have her here.

Please welcome from GBH's Antiques Road Show, Deborah Miller.

Deborah Miller to the stage, please.

Holy moly.

Deborah Miller really knows how to accessorize Dickie's jumpsuit.

Probably our most fashionable guest on the show ever, I would say.

And let me explain why you're here.

When we announced that our tour was called Van Freak's Roadshow, and I explained why, I got an email from someone named Mark.

And who's Mark?

I don't care.

All he said was, I'm married to an appraiser on Antiques Roadshow, and he volunteered for you to be here.

I'm not sure if he checked with you first.

He did not.

Oh, good.

I'm glad.

Well, I'm very grateful that you are here, and we're thrilled to have you.

I should say that

it's a big deal.

I was not quite sure I was ready for this because for the past two years, my New Year's resolution is to be less judgmental.

Sometimes you just can't meet those resolutions, though.

So you're an expert in textiles, clothing, et cetera.

How did this come to be in your life and how did you get on the roadshow?

Yeah,

I, you know, it's securitous route sometimes to when you end up with your final career.

Not for me.

Not for me.

Not for me.

This is what I majored in.

Class of 1993 podcasting.

They're like, what?

What is it?

It's like mail-order LPs.

I went to Santa Cruz because Berkeley didn't have a second banana major.

Yeah, they only had the cool guy major and that was your major.

Yeah.

Well, I was a classic art history major, except I didn't care.

I wanted to know like what they were wearing, what are they sitting on, what's the rug in the back of the, you know, what's the stuff in it.

So it was going to be a deck arts part.

When I graduated from college, I followed another part of my life and I went to West Africa and I was a Peace Corps volunteer for two and a half years.

Well, I went to London first and managed an art gallery and then I came back and...

Yeah, I did a little of that too.

And then, and then I, actually, I was kind of doing it.

But before I joined the Peace Corps, I also managed an art gallery in London.

Not that unusual or impressive.

No, the art gallery was first.

That was my trajectory.

And then after a while, I was like, I'm sick of art.

And so

I was in the Peace Corps.

And within about six months, I realized I really did miss art.

So I finished out my two and a half years.

I thought you were going to say within six months, you realized you were more into war.

No,

I applied to graduate school from my hut, really,

you know, my village, and then went, finished my 27 months and went from like, well, I wasn't in a jungle.

It was sort of Sahal, so it was sort of very deserty, and then went straight to Manhattan.

So that was, yeah, so I decided I was going to eat great food, know about the world.

you know, love languages, worry about people in other countries all the time.

But probably art was going to be my main course.

Excellent.

And

what's the oldest textile you've ever appraised or worked with or held in your hand?

Like some mummy stuff or what?

Mummy stuff, exactly.

Basically arid, in fact, arid cultures.

So Coptic textiles in Egypt, anything that's found in tombs, in the sand.

There are things from the Nazca cultures

on the coast in Peru, where there are deserts.

So things like that just preserve.

There's no moisture.

It just preserves.

so an arid environment preserves absolutely and what does it feel like what was the oldest thing you held would you would you say how many

1500 bce yeah yeah what does it feel like to hold something that old

terrifying right because you're gonna tear it apart in your hands

i washed my hands first right and lick your fingers afterwards

yes

Exactly.

No, I wash your hands and then you just kind of, you know, you're looking with your eyes mostly, but, you know, we feel it was very supple.

It was linen, so it's very supple.

I, this may not be appropriate, but I, I do, I have some, I have some clothing that I hope that you can help me evaluate the value of, which are these um socks that I'm wearing.

These are my Antiques Roadshow socks.

Oh, it's great.

I wondered who bought them.

God damn it.

Well, that's uh, I actually didn't buy them because I was on Antiques Roadshow.

I don't know if you know that, Jesse,

but uh,

they did a season when they were talking to um celebrities and also me uh about old junk we had, and I was on it.

Yeah.

And I know it's your favorite show.

Yeah, no, it's my favorite show.

Yeah, but I was on it.

For years, I've talked publicly.

I'm the only person under 60 who talks all the time about how much they love the Antiques Road Show.

Yeah, yeah.

They call me, I'm like, I've what other celebrity influencers are pushing the road show on the American public?

I'd never been on it.

No, I'd never mentioned it before in my life.

So my whole life, imagine my surprise when they came to me.

The city socks, too.

Yeah.

What other things that are my thing do you have socks of?

Anyway, Deborah Deborah Miller, back to you for a moment, please.

Let me just put these up here so you can see.

Maybe it would be easier if I just took it off.

But so these are socks that they gave me when I was on Antiques Roadshow.

This is one of them.

The other one's very much like it.

And I don't know if you've seen those before.

They told me you couldn't buy them.

You could only get them if you were on Antiques Roadshow.

I don't own these either.

Yeah, you don't own any of them either.

Yeah, you're nervous.

What's that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even with my arid.

It's not an arid climate.

Not gonna lie, they're not gonna lie.

No, no, no, not down there in my shoes.

No.

No, and you can see a little wear and tear.

If you, if you, I want to be straightforward with you, there's a little hole near the ankle of that one, which, I mean, maybe that is patina, you could say.

I don't know.

I think that's a good idea.

It's the absence.

We've got a hole here.

Right.

Patina.

Patina is absolutely.

Patina is at.

Okay, so inside there's probably, I've left some patina for sure.

But that's a right.

That's just a little wear

and tear.

Maybe it's some renovation.

I think it speaks to Provenance, given his famously pointy ankles.

It does.

Sharp elbows, pointy elbows.

You know, one of the issues with things with lycra in them is they just kind of, they don't have a very good shelf life.

So the longevity of these is a concern for me.

How would one preserve these for future ages and scholars?

Lucay.

Not a shadow box, please.

Okay.

Try to do away with shadow boxes and clothing.

I would launder them.

I would put them.

Oh, wait a minute.

What?

Hang on a second.

Yeah.

So sometimes sweats and stains don't show up for decades.

You know, people that have no experience at all.

People that, I put that dress away in the closet and it was clean.

Right.

And you're like, no, it was white wine.

It wasn't clean.

And the sugars come out, you know, 40 years later.

Well, let's say I didn't want to preserve them, but I wanted to pass them on to someone who would appreciate them and give me money for them.

Because the provenance is pretty clear.

You all saw me take it off my foot.

The chain of custody is obvious.

Do you think that someone would be interested in...

You know what I do?

I'm very ruthless because I rank celebrity stature.

I think we need to move on.

I do think we're almost out of time with Deborah Miller.

No, but I think you have to think where they are in their career.

Sure.

The career trajectory.

So where is my ranking then, Deborah Miller?

Would you put a dollar on that or no?

I put a dollar on it.

Oh, it is.

Deborah Miller, everybody.

Yeah.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Are you ready for Swift Justice, Joe?

Yeah, Deborah Miller, we have a segment coming up now called Swift Justice, where we hear as many cases as possible within 15 minutes.

We're going to start the timer and I'm going to add a little incentive.

At the end of Swift Justice, the person I think who makes the best case for themselves gets my socks.

So, and whatever value, and you know, the providence is established.

So,

will you stick around and offer some insight?

Absolutely.

Thank you.

Very good.

Thank you.

Deborah Miller, everybody.

Please welcome to the stage Danny and Diego.

Danny is an artist and professor at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago.

His husband, Diego, is studying to become a sommelier.

They met 10 days after Diego moved here from Mexico and have been together for four years.

Welcome, Danny and Diego.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Who seeks justice in this fake court of law?

I do.

I seek justice.

Yes, Danny, what is the nature of the justice secret?

What's your complaint?

So

when I'm a passenger in Diego's car and we approach either a large bump or a pothole in the road, Diego will do one of two things.

He'll stop very suddenly or he'll veer very suddenly, sometimes crossing the double yellow line.

Oh,

and it'll very dangerous.

Yeah, it'll give me heart palpitations.

Give you heart palpitations.

Diego, how do you respond?

Well, yes, I do.

I do that.

But in my defense, I always look at the mirrors.

Okay.

And your hands are always at 10 and 2.

In my defense,

I'm practicing the basic safety requirements of driving a car.

No, in my defense, I'm not wearing a blindfold and I'm sober.

No, and also it's always when it's like empty streets.

Okay.

And it's like no cars involved and no people involved.

So it's like

have you ever gotten into an accident?

Never, ever.

Never.

And why are you

saying that he comes to a sudden stop at the pothole?

Yeah, and then never moves again?

Or what?

No, well, he'll go over the pothole quite slowly.

Slowly.

But it's a small margin.

He'll slam on the brakes and then go over

as if he hadn't anticipated it.

Right.

I always put the tic-tac lights.

You know?

The tic-tac lights?

The Tic-Tac lights?

Yeah.

The hash.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah,

I like the TikTok lights a lot better.

That's incredible.

I always put it, and then I just like...

I'm literally re-evaluating every choice I've ever made in my entire life because it all led up to me not calling them Tic Tac lights until now.

I can't stipulate.

I can stipulate that it's a horrible experience when he does go over one because he has a subcompact car.

I was going to ask, what kind of car do you drive, Diego?

Yeah, it's a small one.

It's an East and Versa.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, very big.

And how big are the wheels about the size of lifesavers since we're in the mint realm?

Well,

I am very careful about my car because it's old.

Yeah.

And sometimes Chicago, it's, you know, the tough

streets and then it's like

and then it's like very carefully just look at the mirrors and then slicely and then bump it and then go back to your little picture.

Danny's terrified right now.

Even as I'm reading it.

Even as you describe it and what I have to say

are the most soothing tones I've ever heard.

Like I almost took a little nap there because it felt like a little lullaby.

describing how you get around the potholes, but Danny's terrified.

You appreciate that.

Danny's over here going, no peas, mom, no peas, no peace.

So Danny,

is what he's saying true or false?

I've never seen him put on the TikTok lights when he does this.

I've seen him put on the TikTok lights at other times that

I wouldn't, but

I've never seen the like...

like slam on the brakes, TikTok lights, pothole.

I've never seen that order of events.

No, because you're too busy having a panic attack.

True, yeah, that's possible, yeah.

How does it make you feel, Diego, when Danny says that he's having heart palpitations because of your driving?

Well, very bad.

Makes you feel bad.

Yeah,

I love him.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

What would you recommend, Dan?

Where he's very careful.

I just like, yeah.

So, what I would recommend, I think that going over the pothole is less dangerous than his maneuvers.

And I also feel like it's probably possible to anticipate them a little earlier if he does have to go over them instead of around them.

You drive, Danny?

Yes, I do.

Have you ever gone over a pothole and gotten a flat tire?

dented a rim or anything?

I mean, Diego is nodding yes.

Oh, no.

I've

never been through that catastrophe.

I have on my bike, but not on my car.

Right.

And how do you approach potholes on your bike now?

Or do you just have Diego drive you around instead?

Because you're afraid.

I go around them on my bike.

Deborah, you've been a Chicagoan for seven years or so.

I have.

Are Chicago streets more or less dangerous than average?

Are the holes bigger for any reason?

I mean,

sometimes, depends on the time of the year, depends on the street.

Sometimes the drivers do not stay on the double, the right lane.

And if people at home couldn't hear, the audience was like, yeah, our potholes are bigger than New York's.

They have shoulders.

And they're more affordable.

That's right.

And our potholes have pretty good Mexican food now.

I have a question.

Is this the family car?

No, we each have our own car, and mine is a little more pothole-ready than Diego's.

And I would say I do a little bit of a drug.

What are you driving, a Ford 150?

No, I have a Nissan Rogue.

Oh, all right.

Why do you ask, Deborah Miller?

Because I didn't know if the only way they were in a car was when Diego drove.

Right.

But I thought if they're going someplace, if you would swap the driving responsibilities when two of you are in the car.

Yeah, what happens when you drive and you're driving over potholes willy-nilly?

How does Diego feel?

Yeah, how do you feel about it?

Oh, you never asked him?

Interesting.

It's because when you're driving and then you just go through the hole, it's just like pim, boom.

And that's it.

Because

his car.

And then my car is like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Right.

It's a very different experience.

It's a different experience.

Wait.

When he goes over a pothole, it's like the girl from Iponema.

It's a Joe Beam, like, beam, boom, beam, boom.

I don't know.

Yeah.

It's a musical experience with

it.

Whereas yours, it's a percussive experience.

All right, here's how I'm going to rule.

Diego, I'm with you.

I don't like potholes.

I've been through them.

I've busted up tires.

I've busted up wheels because I drove too fast in my younger days.

Don't do what I did, kids.

And once you've done that, you get very, very nervous around potholes.

Plus, your car, it's too small.

It wants to go into the pothole and live there forever.

I understand exactly why you're doing what you're doing.

You're trying to keep your car safe and you're trying to keep Danny safe, but you got to recognize that Danny might have a heart attack before your car ever gets wrecked.

So all I'm asking is do exactly what you claim that you do do.

Notice the pothole ahead of time, slow down gradually, hit that TikTok, and then proceed with caution.

Don't give your partner a heart attack.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Danny and Diego.

Let's welcome to the stage Sam and Brian.

Sam has a degree in music, but they're now studying to become a surgeon specializing in gender-affirming care.

Brian.

Brian has a culinary arts degree, which is also important work, and works

and works for an unnamed airline in their lounge at O'Hare.

Wow.

Well, welcome to the court.

Who seeks justice in my courtroom?

That would be me, Your Honor.

And you are Sam?

Yes.

And what is the complaint?

So my husband has a habit of drinking a lot of soda.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, it's really treating me.

I'll see that coming.

Yeah.

So he will drink them at any time of day, indiscriminate of, you know.

Any time of day only?

No, also at night after the sun goes down.

I'll often find a can of soda on his bedside table.

Ah, interesting.

Yeah.

Always, you know, we drink zero sugar soda.

We keep it in the house.

And

I just.

The really healthy kind is what what you mean.

Yeah.

Yeah, zero sugar.

Absolutely.

I prefer to eat my sugar rather than drink it.

That's what I say.

Anyway,

so I

don't believe that it's appropriate to consume soda where you sleep for many reasons, most of which just the concept of drinking a caffeinated beverage right by where you're about to go lay down and go to sleep, that's

not so good for you.

I feel like don't drink soda where you sleep sounds like a lesser part of the bro code.

Those are bros I would like to have, I think.

Dude, he's out of the frat.

No drinking soda where you sleep, man.

Brian, what's the best bedtime soda in your opinion?

Probably going to have to go with a Mountain Dew.

Wow.

That was the most...

sensual expression of Mountain Dew enthusiasm I've ever heard.

Yeah, you might.

And that's why he's mine.

Yeah.

You're in the running with Diego for Most Mollifluous of the Night.

But Mountain Dew, that's very highly caffeinated soda pop.

That it is.

What do you call it in Chicago?

Soda Pop?

Just pop?

Well, you're wrong.

Doesn't it keep you up at night?

Not generally, no.

No, do you feel you've built up a tolerance to it?

It's somewhere between that and just if you want to go to sleep, you're going to go to sleep.

Wow.

How about that?

Have you ever tried sleeping without being jacked up on Mountain Dew?

Yes, I have.

And how does that work for you?

About the same as when I am jacked up on Mountain Dew.

How much Mountain Dew do you drink a day?

We've gotten a lot better at that, down to about two 20-ounce bottles a day at most.

When you say we, you're using the royal we here?

It's me and the mouse in my pocket.

Well,

when we're drinking, when we're doing the do.

I'll say that there have been alternative caffeination methods pursued while sodas have been cut back a bit.

What are the alternative, like just a straight caffeine pill?

A straight caffeine pill on your bedside?

All right.

And a straight caffeine pill and then straight to sleep.

No, those are usually more in the morning instead of like coffee or something like that.

So this is the way.

Do you drink coffee as well?

I do not drink coffee normally, but teas and other things like that, yes.

Oh, okay.

And are you a primarily a mountain dew person whatever will be the cheapest option after i've done the math wow

this is a guy with a system over here

an incredible system

that's why i got please deborah

do you do you have a do you have a general are you generally known for having a sweet tooth

Not a sweet tooth particularly.

I do enjoy any foods.

The side effect of being a cook is you wind up having so many flavor profiles built up that you sit there and say sugar.

It's like okay add butter make it rich and then even it out or add something tart and then it evens out again so balance yes

and since most of it's fake sugar anyway is it really a sweet tooth

the balance

by the same recipe are you suggesting that your your palate is so accustomed to being overstimulated that just drinking water at night won't do it for you overstimulated is probably a correct definition since i don't know what this man does to his oatmeal would you feel better, Sam, if Brian were drinking?

I mean, how quickly these things become normalized?

You're drinking soda at night on the bedtime, bedtime table.

That's where the water should be.

Not a big, like, mug root beer or whatever.

Brian so efficiently moved the Overton window.

I'm already saying, like, well, what if it's a caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew?

How about that?

What about a red alert?

Is that

we haven't even brought up the cat, and I feel that the cat needs to be addressed.

All right, let's address the cat.

Just quickly, we have an I literally thought you were going to bring a cat out, which amazing.

Gosh, I wish.

His name is Clover, and he's my beautiful angel son, but he gets very grumpy around food time, which is at 6:30 in the morning and 6:30 in the evening promptly.

And if he doesn't get what he wants, he has a tendency to do that cat thing where they just, you know, nudge whatever's on your bedside table off of your bedside table.

He does this

with no prejudice.

He will throw anything off.

Last night, he threw an impact driver off of the dresser.

Oh, why was an impact driver on the dresser?

Because we've been moving and we've been putting together our drinks.

There's a lot of, you should really go back to your bedroom and take a real objective view

of the whole sleep hygiene profile.

You know, because maybe power tools shouldn't be in there either.

But what if I need to hang a shell?

Well, no, I understand.

And I don't know what you're, if you don't have a closet to put these things, I don't know what your situation is.

But I do think that you do need to create a space for yourself, particularly if you're going to, do you share a bed, I presume?

Yes.

Yeah.

If you don't have two separate villas separated by a reflecting pool to retire to, you do have to do your best to create a peaceful realm in which you can sleep.

And what I would say is that, you know, having the cat threatening to knock off your mountain dew onto the comforter, you know, what I've learned is that sometimes those mountain dew stains don't show up for 10 years.

Isn't that right, Deborah Miller?

Absolutely.

Absolutely right.

No, actually, I think Mountain Dew shows up a little bit quicker than that.

A little bit quicker.

So even then, it's a little bit more dire.

There seems to be three parts to this, I'm finding.

Oh.

Oh, it looks like there's a new crux finder in town.

I never thought about parts.

I'd love to hear it.

I'm thinking

we've got a stain issue, a worrisome stain issue, a potential stain.

We've got

worried about his sleep, sleep, just can you sleep?

And then there may be like a tooth decay trajectory.

So we've got three different things that are worrying you.

Thank you.

I hadn't even thought about that.

Yes.

Parts over here.

It's incredible.

Deborah Miller comes through with the parts.

But I just didn't know which one, you know, is the kind of the

strong point.

That's the strongest concern that you have.

For me, the strongest concern is the sleep quality.

I notice a lot of the time, Brian's always told me he's always been a bad sleeper, and I can ask his parents.

So you're hoping that removing caffeine is going to help his sleep.

I hope it can't hurt.

All right.

It's a stimulant.

It's been shown to have negative effects on sleep.

Yeah, and I would say that the diet soda, which I enjoy very much often in an airport lounge, I'll drink about 100 gallons of a particular diet soda.

It's not the greatest for you.

I mean, there's a a lot of chemicals in there, and water is really good, you know.

And I would say that if you are having difficulty sleeping in the way that Sam describes, I hate, you know, you might want to get a sleep study done to see if there's anything else going on.

But in the meantime, I would first of all like, no, don't have a caffeinated beverage on your bedside table.

Like, I don't believe that I'm going to enable you in this way, but maybe a ginger ale,

a non-caffeinated ginger ale to sort of work your way towards the beautiful bounty of, you know, water

and keep it in a container so the cat can't knock it off and get and get rid of the impact drill.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Thank you, Sam and Brian.

Let's welcome to the stage Suni and Tamina.

Suni says she's a recovering lawyer who now works for a non-profit.

Her best friend, Tamina, is a pediatric dentist.

She says she's always accepted SUNY's word as law until now.

SUNY and Tamina, welcome.

Who comes seeking justice in this fake court of law?

I do, Your Honor.

And that is SUNY.

What is the justice you seek?

So Tamina and I have been very good friends for a number of years since college, almost 30 years now.

It was maybe a year ago or so.

We were out having drinks with a couple of other friends of ours, enjoying martinis.

Just talking, having a good time.

Delicious.

Delicious.

Not for your bedside table.

Not at all.

No.

I would not recommend it.

But anyway, so we're like talking, having a good time.

And then all of a sudden, I see Tamina go into the

martini, take the skewer with the olives.

The toothpick?

The toothpick.

And it has olives on it.

It has olives on it.

She takes it out of her own martini.

Okay.

Takes a bite of one of the olives at the end.

Yeah.

And puts the rest back.

Puts the rest back in.

Yeah.

Into her martini.

There's like two olives plus a half an olive.

Now, I think that.

In her martini.

I think that you were expecting gasps.

She was definitely expecting gasps.

Like she was licking fingers or something.

Like she was dipping her fingers into the martini.

No, but she, who bites an olive?

Who bites an olive indeed?

Your best friend does.

Well, Tamina, how do you defend yourself?

I mean, I don't.

It was my drink.

Wow.

But I had to see it, Deron Rock.

But you had to see it.

I had to see it.

I had an olive floating around.

Yeah.

This is a situation where it's not germaphobia like Susan was talking about.

It's just visceral repulsion at your friend.

I understand.

What kind of olive was it, Tamina?

Was it a stuffed?

It was a really big olive.

No.

Did it have like, you know, was it a

regular olive?

I remember being a really big olive.

I remember being several olives.

Right.

And I remember wanting to make my drink last, and it was a dirty martini.

Right.

And so I

now you've gotten me with repulsion, but that's what you're doing.

I'm sorry.

But

I'm not really an everyday martini drinker.

I'm more of a Scotch girl.

But I was drinking martinis at night in the middle of the day.

And it doesn't come with any snacks.

Right.

And when you bite into the olive, it increases the surface area, right?

And then you, when you

have a hole sitting there in the drink,

soaking up more of the alcohol, and it's extra delicious.

You kind of want to make it last.

Was it just a hole, or was it stuffed with a pimento or blue cheese or anything?

That I don't remember.

Do you ever like a do you like an olive that's stuffed with like garlic and jalapeno?

Not a pose.

Because I really like that a lot.

All those things.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, no.

There's a jar.

I mean,

I just.

Can it still be shown that the judge is barefoot?

Yeah.

You know,

you've heard of the barefoot contessa.

Hi, folks.

It's Judge John Hodgman.

When I'm barefoot on stage in Chicago, calculating my celebrity rank and whether it's going up or down, sometimes I like to take out a big jar of good old Trader Joe's Chicago-style olives stuffed with garlic and jalapeno.

And when I eat one of these babies, you know, I'm only eating half.

Oh,

and then I'm putting it right back in the jar.

There's your gasp, Suni.

I got it for you.

It's disgusting.

It's so delicious.

Each one a delicious half unto itself.

Right back in my jar.

I can't watch this.

Half an olive and barefoot.

I know.

Hana, do you want some?

Are you offering me a half of an olive?

I ate the other half already.

Oh, no.

No, don't.

No.

Don't fall into the trap that Doug fell into.

I'm not.

You don't need to.

It is a celebrity olive, after all.

Yeah.

Oh, you're taking this jar home with you

as a thank you gift just for playing.

Thank you.

Deborah, how would you rank the celebrity status of this half-olive?

Again, it's got a short shelf life.

Yeah.

That's a good point.

Even if you wrap it in archival acid-free paper.

And in the sand.

You're not saying this can be preserved.

I mean, it's primed.

Yeah.

You want an olive?

I'm sure.

You don't want to have a fine.

Not one of those.

I've had my fingers all up in these olives.

These are for Tamina.

Yeah.

Can I ask a question about

the olive?

When you bit into it, the other part just dropped into your

stick.

Oh, it wasn't swirling around in your martini.

Okay.

And were you the only one of the friend group that had the issue with it?

Or did you

take a step back?

Actually, the other two friends we were with are

right.

And there was one missing who's on her side.

And I will say that they have since taken to taunting me that anytime we go out for drinks, whatever the garnish is, even like the tiny little Luxardo cherries, they'll like take bites out of them and then put them back in just to drive you out.

Just to taunt you, right?

Yes, absolutely.

You know why?

Because this is.

I was going to say basically what you're doing.

Now, look, Suni,

this is my jar of olives.

I bought it with my own.

I have to see it.

I bought it with my own mouth.

This is really bothering you, right?

Yes, I don't care.

What is it that is really bothering you about this?

Maybe if you explain to me why this is so disgusting to you, Tamina will be able to hear it.

You want me to go deeper into the jar of olives?

Thank you.

It's hard for me to find one that isn't halved yet already.

Once I eat a half, I can't eat the rest.

It's just me.

It's the gross factor, but it's also like an olive is, it's a one-bite food.

There's no need

to

violating the sanctity of the whole olive.

Right.

And also, and you get three in the drink, two or three.

You don't need to like,

you know, save it.

To be fair, Tamina has already claimed that these three olives were on a stick.

And when she said they were a big olive, she basically indicated the size of a Polish sausage.

Well,

this case was decided the moment that Tamina said it's my own damn drink.

I'm really sorry.

And

as much as I enjoyed the mellifluous tones of our previous litigants and their wonderful presentations, Tamina, you win the prize.

Not only these wonderful olives,

but also these incredibly valuable socks.

Hang on.

Hang on one second, Tamina.

These are for you.

Now, I don't care what Deborah Miller says.

I think these can be preserved for a long time.

You're going to want to keep those somewhere arid.

Yeah.

Take them somewhere arid, and I recommend an insurance.

an insurance value of $1 million.

I rule in Tamina's favor.

That's Swift Justice.

Thank you, Suni and Tamina.

And our thanks to Deborah Miller.

Now, Deborah Miller, you work with collectors and museums all around the world.

How can people find you?

Well, I'm based here in Chicago.

I do work around the country,

museums everywhere, and with donors and private people everywhere.

But I have a website, www.dmillerappraisals.com.

I'm also on the Beloved Antiques Roadshow website, which is fantastic.

fantastic and has all of our old appraisals and what's coming up.

We're in the middle of our season 27 right now, and we taped this summer.

That will be coming out.

Season 28 will be coming out in January.

If there are any ME voters listening, do you think this is the year that we could push Antiques Roadshow over the top?

I do think this is the year.

21 years has been nominated.

I think this is the year.

Yeah, I think this is the year, too.

The Susan Lucci of Antique Shows.

GBH's Antique Road Road shows to Deborah Miller.

That's all for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

Thank you to Reddit user Dinosaur1972 for naming the case in this episode.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne.

Our touring producer was Laura Valk.

This episode was recorded by Stephen Cologne.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Make sure you follow us on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman.

And guess what?

We're on TikTok and YouTube at John Hodgman Pod.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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