Cease and De-List

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, cease and delist.

Abby brings the case against her husband, Tyler.

Tyler loves to make top five lists about anything and everything.

He especially loves quizzing strangers about their top five lists.

He says he's just trying to get to know people.

Abby says he's number one annoying with a bullet.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

One, any song by the mountain goats.

Two, any quote from Augustus and I, Claudius.

Three, the third man theme by Anton Karis.

Four, the rainbow connection is sung by Tom Waits.

Five, I was thinking we could take care of it right here in Brainerd.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Please, Abby and Tyler, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's not in my top five cast members of the movie, Baby Mama?

Wow.

Yes.

There's a lot of good Mauritierney's in that.

I love Mauritierney.

She's my favorite.

Jason Manzoukis is in it.

It's fair.

Okay, I got it.

I know that there are.

Steve Martin is in it.

There's a lot of great people in Baby Mama.

You're great in Baby Mama.

Amy Poehler.

You didn't even mention Amy Poehler.

Is she in the top five?

Didn't even know.

Amy Poehler's out of the top five.

Had to make room for me and Zukas.

Okay, Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Can I even?

Because I think I'm dead.

I mean,

there's a lot of great people in Baby Mama.

You're great in Baby Mama.

Many times I've mentioned to you how great you are in Baby Mama.

It's true.

You really are.

I'm not even in the top 30.

in that film.

I know.

I know.

I don't even like my uterus.

That's an obscure cultural reference to baby mama.

But speaking of obscure cultural references, Abby and Tyler, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment on one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I did reference as I entered the courtroom?

Abby, what's your guess?

High fidelity.

Interesting.

High fidelity.

Film or novel?

The film.

Film.

All right.

I'll put that into the guest book

by writing it in the air with my left hand.

As you can can see, if you're watching us on video right now on YouTube or anywhere else where you see videos, Tyler, what's your guess?

My guess is Colonel Gentleman's list of things not to do from season five, episode nine of The Venture Brothers.

I really,

really love this guess.

Hang on.

I'm going to go the extra mile and pretend to write this one down on paper.

In general, I love any Venture Brothers guest that cites chapter and verse.

Just the idea that a Venture Brothers fan doesn't just say Venture Brothers, but wow.

It's on a list.

What a couple of guesses.

What a couple of guesses.

All of them are wrong.

Oh.

I mean, I got to give Tyler credit for pandering to

my great love of the Venture Brothers.

Great show.

Go Team Venture.

And I got to give Abby credit for making a very reasonable guess, which is High Fidelity the movie.

And I was inclined to make a quote from High Fidelity, the movie.

I actually had a quote lined up from High Fidelity, the novel that it's based on by Nick Hornby.

Did I do and say these things?

Yes, I did.

Are there mitigating circumstances?

Not really.

And before you judge, although you have probably already done so, go ahead and write down the four worst things you've done to a partner, even if, especially if your partner doesn't know about them.

Don't dress things up or try to explain them.

Just write them down in a list in the plainest language possible.

Finished?

Okay.

So who's the a-hole now?

Question mark.

That was what I was going to go with from the novel High Fidelity.

Of course, both the novel and the film are based on a person who obsessively makes top five lists of the top five albums, top five songs about XYZ or whatever it is.

Anyway, you're wrong though, Abby.

Sorry.

Because what I was referencing was my

rough top five obscure cultural reference categories over the years.

I've quoted many songs by the Mountain Goats.

I feel like I've quoted from iClaudius.

I don't know.

I think about it a lot.

I've certainly talked about the third man a lot, but I don't think I've ever quoted the theme.

Maybe I've sung it, and maybe I'll sing it at the end of this episode.

We love to hear sung zither.

Sing zither.

That's what I say.

Maybe I'll sing zither in the style of Tom Waits, another great obscure cultural reference point.

And the fifth one, or the first, depending on how you're counting.

I was thinking we could take care of it right here in Brainerd, which was a movie quote.

That's what I remember as being the first obscure cultural reference way back when that started at all.

And that quote was from

Fargo.

Now, who seeks justice in this court?

Is it you, Abby?

It is.

Abby, you take issue with Tyler's top five lists, correct?

I do, yes.

Yeah.

And Tyler, what kind of top fives are we talking about?

What are your top five top fives?

So, my top five, top fives, probably the one that really broke Abby was when I referenced my top like five to ten bootsy cultels in the Midwest.

Five to ten.

Yeah, yeah, it's it adds sometimes and it gets worse and worse as it goes probably.

Then number two is probably

things in movies that should not make me hungry, but in fact make me very hungry.

So number one on that, for example, is the T-Rex eating the goat.

in both Jurassic Park and Jurassic World.

There's a delightful crunch at the end of it sloping up.

That just is delightful.

Another one would be like Tempopo with the Yakuza seafood scene, if you've seen that film.

Not only did I see Tempopo, I worked it at the Coolidge Corner Movie Theater.

I saw it about 19 times.

That movie rules.

What a great movie.

I've seen the movie all the way through at least two or three times, and I saw the beginning and end countless times.

That scene makes me so very hungry.

Jesse, this one might be for you.

Abby's a big sports fan.

So to bond on this, we were sitting, it was almost like going to a sporting event with my dad.

I was like, oh, who do you think the like most snuggly baseball player is?

Because, you know, when I'm not a big baseball fan, but watching them, you're like, sometimes you just like when they give them hugs, they'll feel so, they look like they're so safe and comfortable.

And so I started listing off top five snuggly baseball players.

And who are they?

So my number one is Willie Adamas.

For the Milwaukee Brewers, it's a little bit of a favoritism, but he like gives big hugs.

He's always celebrating.

He has a a beautiful smile.

I would have guessed that if you went with a hometown favorite, it would have been Rowdy Tales, former Milwaukee Brewer's first baseman, Rowdy Tales.

So Rowdy Trales is up there.

He is actually number two.

Okay.

Wait a minute.

Give me some of the top five boutique hotels in the Midwest.

Yeah.

So the number one for me is the Hewing Hotel in Minneapolis.

I feel like you should be counting down from five.

Okay, counting down from five?

Yeah, Yeah, I'm dinging you for your technique anyway.

Number five, Ewing Hotel.

Number four, the Charmonts in La Crosse, Wisconsin.

Number three, the Sertley Hotel in Des Moines.

And then this one, number four, is a really special one just for us is Howie's Tackle Shop in Sturgeon Bay in northern Wisconsin.

That is actually a hotel?

Well, it's a tackle shop mixed with like a motel.

All right.

But there's something, you know, they were so excited to have people there that you know there's also a special sign there that says there is a fine like a 250 fine for cleaning your fish in there and that's just like something truly unique to you know northern wisconsin they should have that sign in every hotel room honestly i think the surest sign that you're in a good hotel is when they're excited someone came

uh and you are in the midwest in fact we find you in milwaukee

when can you name the top five places in milwaukee that i have been the buildings that i have been in in Milwaukee, top five.

Paps Theater.

That's probably one.

Yep, that's one.

That's definitely one.

Let's see.

Pfister Hotel.

Pfister Hotel is definitely one.

Haunted Pfister Hotel.

Have you been there?

I don't remember where I stayed.

So let's say yes, that's two.

Okay.

Honestly, I can only think of four.

The Milwaukee Art Museum.

Nope.

Really?

Okay.

Milwaukee Public Museum?

It's a nice no museums.

Public Market, though.

Oh, Public Market.

I've been to the Public Market.

That's three.

Four, Turner Hall Ballroom.

Oh, that's a good one.

And five,

which is actually number one with a laser beam directly from James Bond's 1970s wristwatch.

Safe house.

Oh.

Oh.

Nice.

You know what I'm talking about.

The weird dad Cold War bar.

Classics.

Yep.

Yeah, absolutely.

Oh, this is fun.

Abby, are you married to Tyler?

I am, yes.

Can I marry him?

It might take some work off my hands.

Yeah.

I'm enjoying it a lot.

Why are you annoyed by the top fives?

i think they have a place

like bonding with people who also like top fives like this seems to have been really good for you guys and your relationship yeah weird dudes um

other weird dudes i think it can come off as a little

not aggressive but restraining if you're meeting someone new who doesn't like ranking things that they like and this has happened in your life right tyler has yes yes he's uh used it as a tool for making connections with my coworkers friends that he hasn't met before.

But how do they react when he whips out the top fives?

Some people are on board with it, and I'm fine with him continuing to make lists with them.

Some people are unnerved by it, and

it's never gone terribly wrong.

I just think it can sometimes not be the jumpstart to a friendship that he's.

What do you do for a career?

I'm an actuary.

Oh, really?

And your coworkers are actuaries?

Most of them, yeah.

I mean, because what what you're doing is you're analyzing risk, right?

Yeah.

But in Tyler's conversation,

I could see how an actuary might be a little bit flummoxed.

Yes.

The worst

example I can think of was someone was talking to him, who doesn't really like video games, but she had one that she enjoyed and was trying to kind of bond over that.

And he asked something like.

Top five 1990s dinosaur games.

The way you finished that sentence made me flash back immediately to when Harry met Sally.

It's It's like an inter one of those interstitials, the married couples finishing each other's sentences.

I loved it.

All right.

And what was her response?

It was a blank pause for a few seconds, followed by, I don't understand the question.

So to be fair, in this case, she was actively trying to remember what

video game she was trying to play.

And I was...

like trying to share with her like here's my top five does this look do any of these ring a bell do you have like some that you remember uh Okay, you were using it more as a prompt than as a quiz.

How did she, how did your co-worker take it, though, Abby?

She was really confused

and didn't really want to continue the video game talk anymore.

And they're friends now, but it took the introduction of her now husband really liking Tyler for her to kind of come around on the fact that he's a good guy and can have normal conversations with people.

This is one of those moments where you thought you were friends with someone the whole time and then you horribly just get over it now.

You just learned.

You just learned.

Just learned.

It happened at this moment.

Yeah.

She just decided to be friends with you yesterday, finally.

How long ago was it that you, that the top five 90s dinosaur video games came up?

When was this event?

Seven or eight years ago.

Right, right.

It was pretty soon after I started full-time here.

You thought you were pals on that night, and it took a while.

But what are your top five 90s dinosaur games, Tyler?

So Turok has to be, the Turok series has to be up there.

I'm not arguing.

Okay.

Then there are some Jurassic Park games that are kind of fun in that kind of ridiculous way where there's kind of like they haven't seen the movie Jurassic Park yet.

So it's sort of like, here's a description of what we're going to make, make a video game from it.

And so there's just like weird games where you're just collecting eggs for no reason.

Sure.

And then there's also like a discovery channel.

kind of like make the dinosaur hatch and then you get like a full 3d model and back in the 90s that was like mind-blowing for me.

So far, that's three.

This was a long time ago.

Sometimes it's hard to remember these top fives.

All right.

Yeah, this is a this top five is not a top five.

This is a this is a nerd challenge.

This is a name five 90s dinosaur games.

This is not what are your five favorite dinosaur games.

By the way, Yoshi is a dinosaur, and he's in lots of good games.

Abby, I'm sorry about this.

I just have to,

let's steer this ship back to you.

I apologize.

Well, I think Jesse landed on one of my concerns, which is that if you prompt someone unsuspectingly with a top five list, you're not going to get a top five list.

You're going to get just some random assortment of stuff they remember.

So I think the premise is skewed.

Yeah.

If I may, I do feel like I've found a way to evolve it to the point where it's not as direct.

and more kind of natural.

It does involve wine, quite a bit of wine and gin, but.

So this involves kidnapping me and putting me in your basement and feeding me a bunch of gin and then demanding my top five characters in Odd World Abe's Odyssey.

You do ever play Odd World Abe's Odyssey?

I have.

Yeah, of course.

Abby, you ever play Odd World Abes Odyssey?

No idea what you're talking about.

No, I know.

I'm sorry.

I really apologize for all of this.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

So, does this happen at parties, at mixers?

What's the situation where this happens, Abby?

Yeah, it would usually be at like a happy hour.

And why are you doing this, Tyler?

You know, so I came to Milwaukee.

We both went to University of Wisconsin-O'Clair, and Abby graduated a year ahead of me.

And so I followed her to Milwaukee.

And by the time she was here, she had all these like work friends.

And I was just starting to position a nonprofit area.

And so when we were going to all these parties at her work, I was just trying to find something that could connect with people.

And I'm kind of, it's hard to socialize with actuaries because at that point in time, all they're talking about is how many exams they've passed.

So, and I don't know what the exams are.

They're all letters and numbers.

It's like we passed Q on September 4th.

How are you doing on A, B, T or something along those lines?

You're aware you're sitting next to an actuary right now, right?

Yes, yes, sir.

Yes.

And you're married to this person.

Yes.

Abby, how do you feel about this actuary slander that's coming at you?

It hurts.

Oh.

He's not wrong, especially early in our careers when so much of our workday was focused on passing exams.

That was kind of all we talked about.

And that wasn't fair to him.

But we're all adults now with other hobbies and pets and kids and other things to talk about.

So I don't know that that is still a rationale that he can do.

Tyler, to be generous to you, would it be fair to say that you felt like a little bit of an outsider at these group mingles, these work mingles?

Yeah,

it would be.

Yeah, you're trying to make yourself comfortable by bringing up topics that you're interested in and understand.

So, usually, how it goes is I'm trying to look for like a keyword or something.

Like, I don't like doing lists unless I know the people kind of well that I'm interested in.

I usually try to do as much as possible if I don't know a person, sort of lists that come up in conversation.

Or if someone is an actuary, what are your top five surprisingly common causes of death?

That was actually one of the first things I asked her when we first started Dane.

She didn't think we were Dane at that point, but I did.

So

yeah, that was one of the first things.

So you asked Abby on one of your early dates from your point of view, top five causes of death.

Is that right?

Yes.

Surprisingly common.

Surprisingly common.

All right, Abby, let's hear it.

More than one person has been killed when they got hit in the head by a tractor.

Same thing with turtles being hit on the head.

All right, I'm going to say right now, Abby, that the tractor was a good leadoff.

Okay.

You know what I mean?

Because I was like, it doesn't surprise me that people are getting hit in the head with tractors.

But turtles, you really got me there.

Maybe turtles is the place to stop.

Top two.

Those are the top two.

And this didn't feel like fun dating banter to you.

Do you know it?

It didn't.

It felt like I was being quizzed in one of my classes.

And Tyler mentioned that you didn't think you were on a date at all.

Is this when you decided this is not a date?

There was a period where he thought if we met for lunch at the cafeteria, that counted as a date.

And I was informed later that we had actually been dating for a while.

Abby, does he continue to ask you top fives?

Yes.

How often does this come up?

It's really when he's bored.

and I'm not bored and he would like me to stop doing what I find engaging and do what he finds engaging.

What kinds of things do you find engaging?

Well, we go to a lot of baseball games, oh, and I really enjoy that, and he enjoys it for a little while, but then needs some other stimulation.

I enjoy the snacks.

Well, it's the top five baseball snacks.

So, uh, I guess I don't know if we could cut, I don't drink, but one of the things that's really nice at our stadium is you can get a baseball bat full of beer.

That is really nice, it's a real bonding moment.

Um,

that's sweet.

We get giant, giant German-style pretzels here.

Cheese curds, fried cheese curds, which are fantastic.

We also have a really good sort of like Milwaukee-style pizza place.

So, like, Milwaukee.

What's Milwaukee-style pizza?

So, it's basically like graham cracker crust, a very paper-thin crust.

And we put cheese all the way to the edge where there's basically no like crust at all.

Uh-huh.

Not graham, not actual graham cracker.

No, no, no.

Because that's not a sweet crust.

Okay.

Not like a key lime pie.

Let's ask Tyler.

Tyler, is it actually a key lime pie?

Is that a Milwaukee-style pizza?

No, not quite.

Graham cracker crust, key lime pie filling, and then the cheese goes right to the edge.

Goes right to the edge.

Abby,

what baseball team are you watching over there in Milwaukee?

Oh, the Milwaukee Brewers.

Of course.

One of the nicest logos in sports, for sure.

It's an M and a B that take the form of a baseball glove.

It's a little visual puzzle.

Exactly.

One of the top five sports logos in the world, I would say.

I did think about that.

Well, we all know what the number one is, and I'll quiz you on it later to see if you win.

But Abby doesn't enjoy when you do this, Tyler, but you have provided some evidence that suggests that the people in your D and D group really enjoy it.

Correct.

These are people you play Dungeons and Dragons with, right?

Correct, yes.

All right.

And we have some testimonials here.

Austin, aka Armit, the half-orc, says, people want to know the best, not the blandest.

Nothing is truly known until it's documented and peer-reviewed.

And such lists allow for both.

That's some half-orc speak, if I've ever heard one.

Matt, who plays Jirak or Zirak, how do you pronounce this character's name?

He pronounces it Cherik.

Say it again.

Cherik.

Cherik, okay.

Who is, what, a Polish paladin?

Yeah, I think kind of, pretty much.

That's pretty.

I had it right.

Lists offer a point of comparison to understand the relativity of a subject within the list.

Exclamation point.

Jake, who plays Falk Greenleaf, that's got to be an elf, right?

That is actually a Fallborg.

It's like a cowman, basically.

A fakeborg?

A Fallborg?

A Fallborg.

Okay.

Someone's going to yell at me.

Is this Wisconsin-only rule?

A cowman?

Nope.

But they were all very, very excited about it to show it off.

Yeah.

Wisconsin, of course, is the birthplace of Dungeons and Dragons.

Lake Geneva, Wisconsin is where it was first played.

Gary Gygax's hometown, one of the top five towns for inventing role-playing games.

So it sounds like

in between moves

in your Dungeons and Dragons group, you're all making top five lists.

Is that right?

Yeah.

So we have,

there's different types of lists that we make.

So they do sort of, if someone's late, running late, we do about 15 minutes of tier lists.

So like, for example, I'm just going to put one out there.

It starts with S as the top, S, A, B, C, D, F.

So, just to clarify for listeners, you're talking about tiers, T-I-E-R.

Correct.

Something is top tier is S tier.

Yes.

This is some, I think it's some video game parlance that's made its way into common language now, right?

I believe it came from like Japanese sort of style games, yes.

Right.

And then A, B, C tier are decreasing below S, right?

So S is the top tier.

So S is like Dick Town.

A is like Venture Brothers.

Whoa, wow.

I really like Dick Town.

Thank you.

I appreciate the plug.

But you know, I'm friends with those Venture Brothers.

I do.

You were really good in that as well.

I really liked your character.

Thank you.

All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

And the category is animated shows.

S tier is Dick Town.

A is Venture Brothers.

B is what?

B, I would say, could be like a South Park, right?

It's not for everyone.

And it can have, when you're looking back like i think uh venture brothers has like a kind of timeless quality to it i think they don't do too many references that like age out but south park does very like their whole thing is like very time-to-date timely rights right and uh dick town only makes references to my weird only childhood which i love and abby do i understand correctly that you led tyler to this dungeons and dragons group somehow or encouraged him to play encouraged him he knew the people already right you had heard that there was a local dungeons and dragons group where everyone liked making lists.

It's actually not local.

They all live in different states.

So it's a nice way for them to keep in touch.

And I thought maybe he would channel his list making there.

And that has not been the case.

Abby, how often when Tyler asks for a top five, is he asking for a top five that anyone can participate in easily?

And how often is he asking for what I would characterize as a sort of nerd challenge?

What are your top five 90s dinosaur video games?

Probably a pretty even split because Tyler is a big fan of nerd culture, like video games and movies and obscure movies, things like that.

But he's also into cooking.

So he'll often ask people like, like pizza from your neck of the woods is a pretty common one.

Or what do you like to cook at home?

So I think it's an even mix.

It's not just him trying to reflect glory upon himself for having these preloaded top five lists.

It's very rarely.

He's only doing that half the time, apparently.

It's an even mix, John.

When you're not around other people,

Tyler, how often do you think about top five lists?

I don't often think about like Troy or whatever most guys are apparently supposed to be thinking of.

I think of random lists.

That's my like half the time or 75% of the time.

I think of them quite a bit.

I think it's just sort of stemmed from like,

if I'm not able to have like a conversation or keep up with people in conversations, I try to listen.

But if it's sort of focused in something that's really not meant for me, I'll start thinking about things like that.

And I'm also thinking about it quietly to yourself.

Yeah.

And if there's an opening or if I know, like, for example, her friend's husband's really into it too, if he's there and he's also bored, I'll talk with him about it.

So let me understand.

When you're at a social function and people are talking about something that you don't immediately relate to or understand, you'll tune out and start thinking of top five lists and then look for a chance to insert that into the conversation.

No, not quite like that.

More like.

That's kind of what you said.

Okay.

Yeah, if I could correct, I guess it's more like gossip.

Abby has like a lot of work gossip, but at this point, that's kind of replaced the sort of tests.

Tyler, be quiet.

Abby?

Yeah.

Give me some of the actuary goss.

What's happening?

Yeah,

what's the table tea?

If I promise you

that we will edit it out by playing some music from Abe's Odyssey while you're giving me one piece of gossip.

Okay.

And we won't release it, but I want to hear one piece of good gossip.

And then so I can evaluate how good this goss is.

Okay.

Is that reasonable?

All right.

Play some music from Abe's Odyssey.

i don't care if we have the rights play it

well

wait why is it no we can't we can't ask any questions we can't reveal anything it's just incredible though that was pretty good right that one was

i heard jennifer marmer gasp like a fish out of water i gasped too wow i don't even want to reveal the person's name, but let me just say, if I were trying to come up with the name of a character in a fictional story who is an actuary, I couldn't have thought of a better name than this person's name.

This is like the dumbest reason to get fired.

Pretty much actuary.

You're not going to get fired.

No one will ever hear this goss.

It's good goss, though.

I mean, I don't know.

Tyler, why don't you just get up in the gossip?

That sounds fun.

You know, it's because I'm so she's, she does sometimes say, like, you cannot tell anyone about this.

Yeah, but if it's, I'm talking about in a social function when you're hanging, hanging with the actuaries, I mean, I sometimes do, or simply ask questions about their work and attempt to understand it.

I do.

Um, it's sort of one of those situations where I'll say, like, oh, what's up with this person?

And they'll be like, Oh, he's the like.

You better not reveal anything that gets out of your fire.

Let's just call him the custodian because that's not someone they ever talk about.

Tell you what, we'll play the music again.

Go ahead.

All right, so I can say names then, yeah, go for it.

Yeah, so.

God.

And then they'll continue on with the conversation kind of thing.

All right, we're out of the music now.

Your goss was not as good as Abby's Goss.

Sorry.

It's not my goss.

I know, but maybe you should make it your goss.

You You know what I mean?

What I heard in that redacted bit of gossip was that Tyler is trying to participate in the gossip.

And

what he needs to understand what's going on is being elided.

He's being poo-pooed.

They're saying, we'll talk about, I'll talk about that with you later.

Right now, we're moving too fast through this gossip C, and he's being left behind in his little clinging to a buoy.

Yeah, Jesse's right.

I mean, we can't reveal what Tyler said, Abby, but he did end the story with him asking a question and you saying to him, We'll talk about that later.

My question to you is: Do you talk about it later with him?

Yeah, well, yeah, I'll catch him up in the car ride home.

But you don't work to include him in the conversation as it occurs.

Yeah, in those kinds of examples, no, I probably wouldn't stop the conversation to catch him up on everything.

Do you feel excluded, Tyler?

No, you know, because I want to see my wife like happy.

What are your top five moods of your wife?

Whiskey is my number one.

It's not a mood.

Oh, it's a mood.

Fair enough.

You're right.

I take it.

I stand corrected.

I rarely say it, but you're right.

Abby, do you think that Tyler needs an in-person friend group?

Wow, probably.

Does he have one in Milwaukee?

I mean, we know he's got his Zoom D D pals.

Not a group.

There are individuals.

Right.

And there are often couple friends.

So it's the two of us hanging out with

two other people.

That one husband really likes him, right?

Yes.

So the other husband makes lists quite a bit, and he made a list of friends that he enjoys playing video games with.

And Tyler was number one on the list.

Oh, phew.

I thought the story was going to go someplace else.

If I were to ban Tyler from doing top fives at parties, how would you suggest that he get to know people?

I mean, he can ask follow-up questions.

Like if someone says, I played this board game I really liked.

He can ask, you know, what other types of board games do you like?

He just can't initiate.

Or I would prefer if it's just less structured.

When you originally submitted the dispute, you said that this was a, quote, cute way, end quote, for Tyler to bond with people.

First of all, you have to admit Tyler's pretty cute.

Yeah, he's pretty cute.

He's pretty cute.

When does it get not cute?

Well, I think it's cute when he's doing it with people who have already agreed to making lists with him in the future.

it's less cute when he has surprised someone who is unprepared.

Has anyone in your work group or otherwise who's been ambushed by one of Tyler's top fives ever complained to you about it privately?

You don't have to say the name.

No, they wouldn't complain to me about it.

It's more just like in the moment you can tell they weren't prepared and don't really feel like engaging in this sort of conversation.

When he goes into a top five with one of your work colleagues, how do you feel?

Worried.

Not that it's going to go poorly, but that it's going to be awkward and no one's going to really enjoy where it went.

And Tyler's not going to feel happy about it in the car ride home.

How badly has it ever gone?

Well, the example I gave.

What's the worst case scenario?

The worst case was just the person who flat out said, I don't understand the question, and then didn't engage any further.

But that's a one data point.

As an actuary, you have to set that aside as an outlier, don't you think?

It's not statistically relevant, it seems to me.

Sorry.

It was an outlier in that she was so direct about it, but there have been plenty of other occasions where people have sort of gave him maybe one or two and then mentally wandered off.

And this is mortifying to you?

No.

I just think it is hampering his relationship building with them.

And you would like me to order that Tyler not do top fives with you.

Yes.

How often does it come up in your lives?

I would estimate once a month.

Tyler, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule?

You know, I think it's important.

I agree with Abby with sort of like having it be like a more natural thing and know that people want to do sort of lists with me.

I can agree to that.

I do, Abby is kind of keeps cards close to her chest sometimes about her day.

So I sometimes use these lists, like if we go on like a vacation, right?

Like to sort of get more out of her because she's hard to read sometimes.

So I use these things to sort of like get a quick way of getting some ideas out of how something went or if she enjoyed something or learned something new about her.

So if you want to know like how her day was,

you say,

what are the top five paranoid thrillers starring Robert Redford?

Like that?

Or do you just ask her questions about her day?

I guess for the daily things, I ask more about her day, but bigger.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I see a point.

Yeah.

Ask her about her day.

Abby, do you feel that Tyler wants more chat from you than you feel comfortable giving?

Like, is there an introvert, extrovert?

Like, some people like more silence in a couple.

You know what I mean?

Like, and some people can't stand silence.

Yeah, I think that's certainly an element of it.

What are the top five ways that it affects your relationship?

What are your top five feelings about this?

You've probably picked up that I'm the quieter one here and Tyler will take a story and run with it to the point where most people would have wanted to stop talking a while ago.

And when Tyler gets going on a topic in mixed company, how do you feel?

Good.

I think it's, you know, if he's talking about something that he's really excited about, I think people are pretty engaged by it.

He's very funny.

He's a really charming person.

I agree with you.

I would like to marry him if anything happens in either of our marriages.

I'd like him at the very least to give me a rowdy to led style hug.

He's a little short for that, but he could try.

So in the ideal ruling that you submitted, you had two parts.

One is that Tyler not be allowed to do top fives with your coworkers and that also he'd not be allowed to do top fives with you.

Is one of those more important than the other?

So he's allowed to do top five lists with me.

I like hearing about his.

Right.

That's the price of marriage.

I do not want to to be asked for my top five lists.

Ever.

Yeah, I think ever.

If I were to ban top five requests from you or your coworkers, which would you pick, which is more important to you?

Probably me, but I feel like a jerk for saying it.

That's okay.

I'm just, you know, it's a, I mean, it's a false dichotomy.

I'm, I could, I could order both.

I was just trying to get at the heart of what, where, where you are most bothered by this top five dumb.

I would say I'm more annoyed when I'm asked to provide my top five lists than I am worried when he asks a coworker for theirs.

Abby, would you be willing to provide your husband with information about your feelings and experiences in a non-list format?

I think I could accommodate that, yeah.

Tyler, to get a real-world sense of how this works in your relationship, before I go into my chambers, would you please ask Abby for a top five list of your choosing, perhaps for the last time in your relationship?

I'm so curious what this is going to be.

i guess top five things our cats have done that have really bugged you

oh that's why do i hate our cats no well

i'll allow it

it's it's a challenging one

they've been keeping me up for days now so

yeah is that the really the one you want to ask tyler or the one you feel safest asking safest one yeah

what's the five things you love about my brother the most?

You know what, Abby?

Don't answer.

I'll be back in a moment.

I'm going to go into my chambers and think it over.

I'll be back in the home with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Tyler, how are you feeling about your chances?

People always say this on this podcast, but I was feeling really good, and now I'm a little bit nervous.

What are the top five reasons you're nervous?

Number one, my family often debated at the dinner table rather than talking about our day.

So I have a fear of sort of debate.

The next one is Abby was like a debate champion in high school and is very good at it still.

So I came in a little bit nervous about that.

The next one would probably be Abby's very charming.

Oftentimes when people meet her who are my friends, they're like, oh,

you should bring Abby around to hang out, which kind of feels weird sometimes.

Um

the final one is I always kind of want what's what's best for her so or like what she wants.

So like if I win and she has to keep doing this stuff, I'm worried about the thought of her like having to engage with me on things that she does not like actively doing.

Abby, how are you feeling about your chances?

I am also nervous.

I feel like Tyler and the judge hit it off more than I expected.

I'm also worried I'm going to get fired, but that's fine.

I'm sure it won't happen.

Did you have reason to believe previously that the judge might like lists?

Like, for example, that he wrote a list of 500 hobo names in his first book.

That had crossed my mind, yeah.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Law.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from the case.

I know that you're headed out on the Joco Cruise soon.

Yes, Jesse, I am packing my steamer trunk as we speak, including my Scrabble set and my Yahtzee set and my Monopoly deal set, because those are three games that I enjoy playing.

And if you have not yet booked your cabin on the Joco Cruise, go to JokoCruise.com.

Check out with code Hodgman24.

They will alert me that this has happened.

And if you wish, I offer my services as an opponent to you in Scrabble or those other games in the crow's nest on a night of your choosing.

And don't be intimidated.

I haven't played Scrabble meaningfully in years, but I love playing the game and it would be fun to play with you.

And one way to make sure that you have time to do that with me on the cruise, go to jokocruise.com, use code Hodgman24.

And even if you're not interested in playing Scrabble with me, there's going to be so much fun for you on this cruise.

Our friend Gene Gray is going to be on the cruise.

Our fellow Max Funster, Janet Varney, is going to be performing on the cruise.

We have so many talented musicians,

comics, writers.

Go to jokocruise.com and see the lineup.

It's really amazing.

And it's been years since I've been on the cruise.

I'm really excited to get back there and see old friends and meet new ones.

Maybe some of you over at the Scrabble table up there at the crow's nest at the top of the ship.

That's jokocruise.com, code Hodgman24.

Jesse Thorne, what do you have got going on?

Well, I'm just keeping an eye on the Max Fun Drive coming just around the corner in mid-March.

Yeah,

I'll tell you,

this has been a year of watching a lot of media ventures go out of business, not just in the podcast space, but across all of publishing.

They say it's a time of contraction in the biz of show.

And I can't emphasize enough how incredible it is that Max Fun has been held aloft by our membership.

So

Max Fun Drive is a celebration of our members, a celebration of becoming a member of Maximum Fun.

It's going to be a really great time.

We're going to have special bonus episodes and stuff.

I know me and Jordan are going to do a live show called the Cavalcade of Stars that will be available streaming.

Look, I'm not saying Lisa Loeb is going to be there, but I am saying I'm going to email Lisa Loeb to ask if she'll be there.

That's my promise to you.

I will send an email to Lisa Loeb,

my number one crush from middle school, and ask her if she will come.

And she might because

she comes to stuff.

She's a cool lady.

I've said it before, and I will say it again.

And I'm also going to say it right now.

We are so grateful to all of you members of Maximum Fund for your continued support.

over the years.

I cannot overstate how much it means to me.

So just please circle your calendar.

March 18 starts two weeks of the Max Fun Drive.

This is the time of year when we not only offer you some of the wildest bonus episodes and special guests and have all kinds of fun crossovers and everything else, but it's also the time of year when we ask you to go ahead and become a member if you're not one or to upgrade your membership if you're able to.

It all happens at maximumfund.org/slash join.

But just circle that URL and circle March 18 and get ready to join in the Max Fun Drive.

It's Max and Fun and Drive.

Come be a part of it.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Normally, I don't start a verdict with a question, but I received some information right before I went into my chambers.

And then I received some information through the paper-thin walls of my chambers while you were talking to Jesse Tyler.

And so I just wanted to say, why did you want to ask Abby top five reasons she loves your brother?

Why is that a complicated question for you?

They're both very, they're the two people I consider the most intelligent people I've ever met.

And I respect them both a lot, but they buttheads like crazy sometimes.

Oh, okay.

And my brother lives out in California now.

Are you anxious that Abby and your brother don't get along as well as you wish they would?

Yes.

Right.

And so you're asking the question top five things to maybe foster some reflection on her part about what a good duty is or something.

I would like to know that there's something there, you know, because he's kind of almost the only family.

So I want to make sure that we can like maintain that relationship to keep going and visiting him throughout our lifetime.

Okay, that's something for you two to discuss between, that's a heavy thing for you two to discuss between each other, but I'm grateful to you for being so open about it.

And I think that it helps me with regard to my verdict.

And now it's verdict time.

The thing that I heard through the paper-thin walls of my non-existent chambers was that you

were feeling anxious about this because you grew up and at the dinner table, your family would debate topics rather than simply talk about their day.

That's exactly what you are doing now, right?

You know, the top fives are an expression of enthusiasm on your part and also of curiosity, but they are framed in a very arbitrary and remote, debate-y way.

Like, rather than simply say, what is your favorite kind of door?

Have you ever thought about it?

Instead, you might ask someone to name their top five doors.

And I think what Abby is feeling is that there is an implicit challenge in there.

That

if you ask for the top five or you offer your top five, there is an invitation to debate.

Or there is a worry that maybe I'll say something and you'll go wrong.

There is in the top five an implicit challenge that my taste is perhaps more interesting than yours, or you're not going to answer the right top five for me.

And I think that it puts, it puts and keeps people at a distance.

And your family, if I were to guess,

and I probably am guessing correctly, like your family's willingness to debate topics at the dinner table rather than speak plainly about their lives and their feelings has that is keeping everybody at a safe distance from their own emotions as well to a certain degree.

And perhaps maybe you've inherited that a little bit and you feel more comfortable talking with people about hypothetical situations or lists of cultural references or whatever it is than simply saying, like, I don't know what an actuary does and I'm married to one.

Can you explain it to me?

Or whatever it might be, you know.

And I think that that's something that you should think about.

I think you are a genuinely curious person.

And for someone who thinks in terms of lists like me, it is a delight to talk to you.

This is a prompt that really, really works for me in terms of sparking conversation.

But I think you've observed that this is a prompt that sort of chills conversation or makes Abby feel like she's being quizzed on something or her actuary friends feel confused.

And for that reason,

While I find you very, very charming and fun, and

my offer of marriage stands, which is really irresponsible.

And I would love to hang out with you in Milwaukee and go to Safe House and play Euchre and

Whist or whatever else you get up to in Milwaukee.

Eat cheese foods.

Eat cheese foods and talk about the top five Milwaukeeans of all time or whatever.

John Gerda.

Okay.

I would say that

you should

develop a way to express your curiosity in a less ranked way.

And I think, I mean, you pointed it out, like everyone's kind of got a favorite pizza.

Like, it's okay to simply say, instead of what are your top five pizzas, like, what's the best time?

What's the best pizza you ever had?

Do you remember a time?

Now,

you can't just be out of the, out of the clear blue here.

You know what I mean?

It can't be like, oh, hi, we were all talking about what's happening at the state capitol capitol today.

What's your best pizza?

You know, it can't be that.

I mean, really,

the best conversation starter that I've ever heard in my life is the one that was prompted to me by my

wonderful and

departed, unfortunately, writing teacher, Lee K.

Abbott.

What did you do today?

The truth is, everyone wants to talk about their work.

Everyone wants to talk about what they did today.

And you'll get a lot further by asking questions than demanding answers.

or trying to steer the conversation to 90s dinosaur video games when honestly you didn't even have a good five list there.

You were really struggling when I asked you.

Like, if you're going to ask that question, you better be, you better be locked and loaded with an incredible list of video games featuring dinosaurs from the 90s.

So I am finding in favor of Abby in this case.

I'm not banning, you can't ask her top fives anymore.

Sorry.

She just doesn't like it.

Just doesn't work.

Understood.

And, you know, when it's a topic as serious as,

is there a way that you and my brother can find common ground?

Because I hope you guys really can care about each other and get along.

It's, it's best to ask that that way

rather than say, what's your top five reasons you love my brother?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I knew what you were going for.

You were put on the spot and you felt it, right?

I put you on the spot.

And you don't want to put people, putting people on the spot is no fun for them.

That really revealed a lot for me.

Great.

So I hope you won't take this too personally when I grab the big davel over here.

And I say, I find in Abby's favor, take it easy on the top fives.

Make it only a top one at best.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Ladies and gentlemen, here's tonight's top 10.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Tyler, you sound chastened.

Yeah, it's...

It's going to be hard.

It's something I think I wasn't prepared to do entirely, cut it off like that, but I can live live with making Abby stay a little more easy with less quizzing on lists for sure.

What are your top five Chris Rock movies?

Oh, I don't know if I have any Chris Rock movies that are my top five.

Top five?

Which is a Chris Rock movie.

It's called Top Five.

This case is about a guy who insists on making others give their top five lists, and he's not even familiar with the movie Top Five.

I'm sorry.

Abby, how are you feeling?

Good.

Yeah.

No, that was great.

I'm very happy.

I think this will help Tyler's real non-combative personality shine and he'll make a lot more friends that way.

Top five MCs dead or alive.

Man, how about this?

Top five grocery stores in the Midwest.

No, we're doing top five MCs Dead or Alive, the subject of the top five lists in the Chris Rock movie top five.

Oh, you lost me.

I don't have any.

Wow.

Abby Tyler, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thanks.

It's been great.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

In just a moment, we'll have swift justice.

But first, our thanks to Redditor Bobopoul

for naming this week's episode Cease and D List.

Join the conversation about.

I'd buy that robot companion, Bobopoulos 5000.

Bobopoulos Bobopoulos 5000.

Play Huey Lewis and the news sports.

Join the conversation, suggest names for episodes.

Check out other people's suggestions at maximumfun.reddit.com.

Evidence and photos from our program are posted on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

We're also on TikTok and YouTube now at judgejohnhodgman pod.

And when we say we're on YouTube, full episodes of the program, if you want to watch the show, you can do it on YouTube at JudgeJohn Hodgman Pod.

Come see my great big gamble.

Yeah, go follow us.

We wear our outfits.

We do little dances for your entertainment.

See, look, we're doing a little dance.

Bob Bapola's 5,000.

If you're only listening, you didn't get to see it.

Go subscribe to the YouTube channel.

Thank you to 627 on Apple Podcasts for the five-star rating.

They say this about the show: while massively entertaining, they also have an insightful perspective on morality and conflict.

They've helped me in approaching conflict in my own life, and I look forward to listening every week.

Thank you, 627.

If you're listening to us on Apple Podcast, do rate and review the program.

It helps us climb up those charts and find new listeners.

Judge Sean Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode, engineered by Dusty Weiss at PodCamp Media in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Great studio, great engineer.

Thank you.

Great city.

Indeed.

The podcast is edited by A.J.

McKeon.

Our video editor is Daniel Speer.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Did you know this, John?

At the ballpark in Milwaukee,

they have a mascot race.

Yeah.

But the mascots are all different types of sausages

that you can get at the ballpark in Milwaukee.

Did you notice that none of those sausages were cited as top ballpark snacks?

Whoa.

Blew me away.

Interesting.

Blew me about that.

Blew me away.

I thought we didn't even.

At least one of the running,

not even one of the running mascot sausages was listed, huh?

Like,

I didn't expect to hear Choriso, but I figured at the very least I would hear Polish or Bratworth.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Unbelievable.

Really, really surprising to me.

I look forward to going to it.

I'd love to go to a baseball game.

People say that's one of the best places to go to the baseball game in the country.

Let's go do a show in Milwaukee and then we'll go to a baseball game, too.

Here's Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment.

Giles asks, are pandas actually just people wearing costumes?

I say yes, based on the attached photo.

My wife and most others disagree.

You know, every now and then I'm like, should I look at these Swift Justice questions before they come up so I can prepare something?

And this is the time where I remember, no, it's better to be surprised by a picture of pandas.

What are they playing?

Dominoes or Mahjong or what?

Yeah, it looks like, I mean, it's sitting around a table.

It's a photograph of dogs playing poker, only it's a real photograph and it's real pandas or possibly just people wearing costumes.

I, I, I'm going to, look, I'm going to go with Giles on this one.

Just like all birds are robot surveillance cameras and are not real, all pandas are people and humans.

Prove me wrong.

Speaking of Bobopoulos 5000, we need your robot cases.

We need your droid cases.

We need your science fiction cases.

Actually, take it back.

Droids are part of the Star Wars franchise, which is a fantasy franchise.

If you get speculative fiction,

I'm just trying to honor my own settled law in the New York Times magazine.

They got me a lot of letters, but okay.

Any kind of science fiction, speculative fiction, indeed, any kind of fantasy.

Did someone in your life want to watch the movie Serenity without having seen Firefly at all?

Wow.

Did the Jetsons stop being sci-fi when they crossed over with the Flintstones?

That's time travel.

I think that has to be.

Well, I don't know.

Do you have a sneaking suspicion that your friend might be an android, but you don't have the right kind of test to prove it?

Submit your cases about sci-fi to maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And by sci-fi, I mean SF or science fiction.

We don't say sci-fi.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And of course, we're eager to hear about all your disputes, not just ones about SF.

I'm eager to hear your ones about SF, in addition to your ones about SF,

because I'll settle them.

It doesn't matter the subject.

No case too big, too small.

Maximumfun.org/slash JJHO.

And we'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows, supported directly by you.