Obstruction of Just Ice

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Obstruction of Just Ice.

Curtis and Andy are both passionate about the ice sport called curling.

Andy quit their team last year, but he still watches Curtis play, and he offers his friend a lot of unsolicited advice.

Curtis is annoyed.

He asks the court to issue a gag order on backseat curling.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

It would be nice if someone noticed that they've all been working hard, pushing these rocks around, trying to gain some ground, trying to keep the Canadians down.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Curtis Andy, please rise, raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he does no curling, only epic curls?

I do.

I do as well.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Thank you, Bailiff Jesse, Curtis, and Andy, you may be seated for an immediate.

I'm sorry, I was laughing at Jesse doing some epic curls there in the video conference.

I do about, like, I'll do like, I'll do a little work with the eight-pounder.

You know what I mean?

All I know is that when my friend Jim was learning Jeet Kune Do,

Bruce Lee's martial art,

he told me that when Bruce Lee was making breakfast, he would do curls with his baby in one arm and a gallon of milk in the other arm.

Hmm.

That only works insofar as your baby weighs the exact weight of a gallon of milk.

Or if you switch back and forth.

I suppose that's true.

Curtis and Andy, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom?

I don't know.

Let's start with you, Curtis.

I anticipated you would be saying something about

some curling-related thing.

Yeah, well, that makes sense.

That makes sense because the case is about curling.

Exactly.

It's a curling case.

So I'm going to guess that it is the Beatles movie Help.

Wow.

It's a bad guess.

Look, I'm writing it down.

And for once, probably in the past five years, I actually wrote it down.

I'll show you the picture on the video conference.

I wrote it down, help.

It's what I need.

Curtis just googled curling thing before the show.

Now, I'm going to admit that there's no way that you got this one right because I've never seen help, so I never would have thought of it.

But I must ask, is there a curling scene in help?

Apparently, there is, according to Wikipedia.

Or you've never seen it either.

No, he just googled curling thing.

We established that.

All right.

I'll put down help with an exclamation point.

In any case, Andy, you got a curling thing for me?

I do.

I have a prepared guess.

Well done.

Yeah.

99.99% of curling is preparation.

Isn't that right, Andy?

There's a little in-game adjustments, but

mostly the skipper calls the shots and calls them right.

That is right.

Based on their assessment of the ice.

Correct.

So your assessment of the ice is what?

Is the 2002 film Men with Brooms with Leslie Nielsen, the Canadian classic.

This was a curling spoof film?

It's fairly spoofy.

I think it's a 56% on Rotten Tomatoes.

2002, really the peak of Leslie Nielsen's career

when he was just starting to lose his grip on what was going on around him.

But what a second and third act for Leslie Nielsen.

Indeed.

I mean, I don't know.

I was at the movies the other day and they were playing a clip of Forbidden Planet.

There's Leslie Nielsen in his original role as a space hunk.

And then by the 70s, into the 80s, into the 90s, and into the early 2000s, he became Le Hoie de Spoof, what they call in Canada, the king of spoofs.

Men with brooms.

I'll have to look that one up.

And brooms are, of course, a curling tool, correct?

Correct.

Yeah, we'll be getting into all of that, but before we do, I have to say all guesses are wrong.

The curling thing I was referring to is a song by my friend Jonathan Colton released in 2006 on his Thing a Week 2 compilation album entitled The Ballad of Curtis the Curler.

No way.

Wouldn't that be fun if it were true?

Of course, no way.

It's just, it's called Curl.

It's a very fun song.

And by the way, Depending on when you're listening, in your future, I will be on the Jonathan Colton Cruise this year.

I haven't been on it for a number of years.

I'm going to be cruising along with the Jonathan Colton Cruise, March 9th through 16.

So if you're a Judge John Hodgman listener, then you are because you're listening to this and you want to come on the cruise and hang out with me in a hot tub.

It can be arranged.

Meanwhile, we have to hear this case.

Before we get into it, let me just say my apologies to the Belfast Curling Club of Belfast, Maine.

Carl Anderson, a listener, wrote to me encouraging me.

to visit the Belfast Curling Club in Belfast, Maine that I drive by on my way to and from Maine every time we go there.

And I'm always like, I want to go in there, but there are never cars in the parking lot.

And I'm always convinced it's a ghost curling club.

But it is very active.

I would have been able to bring a lot of firsthand and two feet on ice experience to this conversation.

But as I didn't go, and I apologize,

I will go in the future.

But as I didn't go, I'm going to have to turn to you, the litigants.

to help explain what the heck we're talking about here.

So Curtis,

you bring the case against Andy in this case, right?

That's correct.

Before we get to your complaint, what is curling?

Well, it's a sport that most people only are familiar with when it's in the Olympics that involves pushing a heavy

way to erase the men with brooms fans.

That is so true, and I'd like to apologize to all of them.

Both of them.

Curling is an ice sport practiced in Canada and in northern North America, particularly Minnesota, where you both are in St.

Paul, correct?

That's correct.

It is the, I believe that Minnesota is the epicenter of the U.S.

curling society.

Got it.

And you were saying something about a rock?

Yes, you push this rock down the sheet of ice and you're trying to get it closest to the center of this target called the house that's on the other end of the ice.

This house is not a house.

It's not like a doghouse.

No, it's it looks like I'd have to admit it would be it would be pretty cool if you were trying to slide this stone into an actual little house, right, Andy?

Yes.

But that wouldn't be curling.

Nope.

You're trying to get it into...

It looks like it's a regular red, white, and blue dartboard target painted on the ice.

And you're trying to get it closest to the middle, right?

An analogy would be bocce ball, where you're trying to get your ball closest to the jack.

Right.

And you've got several stones to throw.

You call them a stone or a rock?

Both.

Try to keep it simple here.

How heavy is the stone?

Roughly 42, 44 pounds.

I don't know what pounds are.

Tell me how much that is in stone.

That's a UK curling joke.

Thank you.

How heavy is the rock?

The same.

The same.

And it's round and it's got a handle on it.

Correct.

It's about 3.14 stone, John.

3.14.

It's about pie stone?

A stone, also called a rock, is 3.14 stone in weight.

Also called a pie stone.

And it's got a handle on it and you slide it down.

How many turns do you get, Curtis?

I think the normal is four, but there's a whole finesse to this that I must admit, I don't even really understand, where sometimes you would, if you were really good at curling, which I'm not, you would try to turn it more or less depending on what you want it to do as it slows to a stop at the other end of the item.

You would curl it.

Yes, it will curl at the end of its trajectory.

Based on how the deliverer slides the rock.

That's correct.

And what turn you put on it.

You put a little English on it one way or the other as you release it.

You mentioned an analogy, Andy, which was bocce ball.

Yes.

You might also say boule or peitanque or lawn bowling.

Here's another analogy.

Belfast Curling Club calls it chess on ice.

Agree or disagree?

A lot of people say this is true.

There's a lot of strategy in the game.

You're sliding a rock on ice.

How is it chess?

The strategy involved is what makes the game quite unique and fun.

And that's what the skip is determining the strategy and telling their players where they want that rock to end up.

Aha.

Now the skip, short for skipper, boss of the team.

Boss of the team.

Yes.

That's the person who throws the rock or slides it down, releases it.

All players throw the rock.

So there's four players on a team.

and every player throws two rocks.

The skipper determines the strategy and tells the first three throwers where to put the rocks.

And the skip then goes down and throws the last two.

And so the skip is determining the strategy.

And what are the other players doing?

Why are there brooms for people who don't know?

The broom is going to...

You're going to sweep the rock to extend the length of the rock.

Now, I'm going to stop you right there, Andy.

You never sweep the rock.

You sweep the ice in front of the rock.

And the rock is super hard.

It's not going to get extended with a broom.

You need some kind of hydraulic press.

I mean, if the rock is dusty before play, you might wipe it off.

You do, correct, right?

But the sweeping, you have-are they are actual brooms now?

They used to be actual brooms, they used to be corn brooms, which you would slap the ice with, right?

And technology has evolved.

There's a pad on it with a little piece of fabric, and that fabric then releases or lessens the friction between the rock and the ice and allows it to travel further and also allows it to delay its curl.

The thing about this for me, John, is it's really hard for me personally to identify why I draw the line at

slapping the ice with a corn broom because the rest of this is no less silly.

But for some reason, I fell off a cliff of credulity when we got to the slapping the ice part.

I think it is a representation of the Canadian dual love and hatred of winter.

They will sport on the ice, but they hate the ice at the same time and want to swat it.

I will say that even though Canadians have been the masters of the game for quite some time, it was started in Scotland hundreds of years ago.

Hundreds of years ago.

And still curled there, would you say?

Sure.

All right.

I believe you.

So you have someone who kind of bends down and slides the stone forward.

And then you have two people with these modern-day miracle techno brooms who are frantically sweeping the ice in front of the stone as it travels in order to,

I guess, melt the ice and increase slipperiness so that the stone travels even further and to affect its direction without touching it.

Correct.

So that's three people.

Thrower, broomer one, broomer two, and then skipper.

Correct.

Is there another position?

Nope.

And that is what they call curlings.

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So, Curtis, what specifically is your complaint against Andy now that we understand what curling is?

My complaint against Andy is that he has been criticizing the way that my team curls.

Critiquing your curling.

Is he your curling coach?

Not anymore.

And Andy, when you're criticizing Curtis, what are you hanging around?

Hanging around?

What's a curling club called?

A curling club, right?

A curling club.

Yeah.

You're in there watching them and yelling out.

There are times where I'll visit the club, but there's also a video feed that you can watch them play from the comfort of your couch.

So you're watching them on video, and how are you getting your critiques to them?

Are you calling them in?

Are you calling up the club?

You banging on a trash can like the Houston Astros?

I would have sent sent a text to my wife at the

time in question here.

Your wife is on Curtis's team.

She took my place on Curtis's team.

Wow.

Okay.

We're going to get into all that in a second, but I have a question.

What is Curtis doing wrong?

The entire team is playing too slow.

Whoa.

They're playing curling too slow.

Too slow for you or too slow for curling?

Like, are you bored?

Or is it

or is there something wrong with slow curling?

There is something very wrong with slow curling.

Every club deals with this in trying to get their members to

speed up the play.

And so now that I'm no longer with the team, they need a little bit more guidance to stay on task.

John, I think I can clarify this for you.

So Curtis plays a staid, old-fashioned egghead form of chess on ice.

Andy plays speed curling,

which he learned in the urban parks of Minneapolis.

St.

Paul.

How long should you call it a curling match?

What do you call a curling game?

A match?

It is a draw.

A draw.

True name for it.

Not bang spiel.

Well, that's a tournament.

That's a weekend tournament.

Okay.

See,

I looked up some things on Wikipedia too, Curtis.

But if they're playing too slowly, it's probably a maul spiel.

How long should a curling draw take?

Two hours.

How long does it take for your wife and Curtis to curl together?

So

in league play, you have two hours to complete a game.

And

a game is eight ends long.

And an end is like an inning of baseball.

Right.

And each end is to take 15 minutes.

So if playing properly.

Eight times 15 is two hours.

There you go.

I got you.

And so during league play, they will buzz the arena at 95 minutes.

It's electrified like an electric fence.

Well,

yes, there's a horn.

Everyone goes into spasms and falls down.

On ice.

It's like an and or they will blow a buzzer at 95 minutes, and you will finish the end you are playing.

and complete one more.

And if you are playing properly, that's a full eight ends of play.

And I believe the game in question, they completed six ends in that period of time.

Not enough curlings in two hours is what you're saying.

Gotcha.

Andy, who curled first?

You or Curtis?

Me.

How long have you been curling?

I started in 2006.

2006.

Did you grow up with it?

No.

No, I didn't.

No, I started, it was an Olympic year, and a friend of mine worked with the then president of the St.

Paul Curling Club.

And we were talking about it.

And we got in on a league.

And I've been playing in a couple leagues since 2006.

What about Curtis?

How long have you been, how long have you been curling?

This is my third season curling.

Andy got me into it.

He recruited you?

Yes.

During the pandemic, there were openings.

Oftentimes, there are no openings at the St.

Paul Curling Club, but people, people.

It's like Club 33.

You have to wait for a member to die.

Then it's a $30,000 initiation fee at $10,000 a year just to get in.

It's not as expensive as that, but it's not free.

And so it was, you know, we were bored.

It was the, you know, second winter of the pandemic.

And so we

formed a curling team and Andy agreed to lead us.

So the three of us were brand new and Andy was our experienced skip and sort of taught us to play.

Got it.

And did you have a good time?

Oh, it was great.

It's a gas.

It's really fun.

Yeah.

You know what what they say up there in Belfast, Maine?

Curling?

It's a gas.

Very well-known saying.

Curling's a gas.

Sounds like fun.

It is.

Curtis, you had fun.

Yes, a lot of fun.

Andy, did you not have fun?

Did you not have fun playing with your friend Curtis?

I love playing with him.

Right.

You saw something in him, too, if you wanted to recruit him.

Did you know him before this or you just heard about this natural curler around St.

Paul?

You had to get him on your team.

As neighbors, we would chat and I would talk to them about the sport.

And after the pandemic, there were some openings at the club.

So I said, hey, guys, you want to do it?

This is your chance.

And they all wanted to do it.

So we did it.

So you enjoyed playing with him.

Was he playing too slow at the time?

Oh, yeah.

Is that why you left the team?

I added another team.

And so I had to make a decision.

So there was a competitive league that I want, that I formed a team to join.

And so something had to give.

And it was a difficult decision, but I thought that this team, they need to spread their wings and we could get another person in the game to help guide them or for them to play with.

You had a more professional, you had a more talented curling team that you wanted to play with and be more competitive with.

Is that correct?

That is correct.

So that's when you told Curtis, I'm out of here.

Good luck.

Yes.

Yeah.

The traditional end to to every curling game.

I'm out of here.

Good luck.

It took a while to decide, but yes.

Curtis, you mentioned in your initial petition to me, I don't know if you remember writing this, that after quitting the team, Andy, and here I quote from you, Andy, quote, then got on a four-wheeler driven by his 10-year-old son, who rolled it over, breaking Andy's scapula.

The child was unharmed, end quote.

Was this punishment by the curling gods for Andy abandoning your team?

Well, our ongoing joke was that he could have just told us he didn't want to play with us.

He didn't have to lay it on quite so thick.

It was quite the injury.

I think the doctors had never seen anyone who'd snapped their scapula in half before.

You're saying that he quit the team and he's like, I'm out of here.

Good luck.

Then hopped on a four-wheeler with his 10-year-old son and rolled it.

Two middle fingers in the air.

Is that what happened?

You know,

there was a gap of time in there, but I think for narrative purposes, that felt accurate to me.

Was there also like a dog with sunglasses and a scarf waving behind him?

You were about to four-wheel off, Andy, into curling a competitive legend, and then you rolled over.

How's your scapula, by the way?

It is healed.

The doctors have signed off.

I got back on the ice a few weeks ago.

Just a few weeks ago.

In a sling.

Are you still the curler you once were?

Are you building back?

Building back.

I'm close.

I'm maybe 85%.

I'm glad to hear it.

But I don't know what the point of that detail was in Curtis's initial letter, but he also wrote that after you left the team, Curtis recruited a new player, your wife, Andy, to take your place.

Is that correct?

That is correct.

Wait, Curtis recruited your wife, or you suggested to your wife that she join Curtis's team.

Curtis recruited my wife.

So I met my wife at the curling club, and she has hung up her broom.

And once we had children, she hasn't really played for years.

And it didn't cross my mind that she would be an option for my place until the boys suggested it.

And she said, sure.

Who's the real skip now?

I mean, this is chess on ice.

You didn't see this other piece that was in play.

Curtis saw the possibility to play this piece, your wife,

and took her off the board and put him on his team.

How does that make you feel, Andy?

I think it's great.

It's good for her to get back out there.

I've been waiting for her to get the game going again.

And no more four-wheeling for you, I hope.

Maybe not with my son.

So

are you still playing with this other, other more competitive team?

I am.

Do these teams have names, Curtis?

That's funny that you should raise that.

Andy is very against them having any kind of silly, punny name.

He's also dead set against any kind of costumes.

So our

here's where Andy and I part ways on the sport of curling that I've never practiced.

Andy feels strongly that, as you might have, as you might be starting to gather, Andy takes this sport rather seriously.

And

he doesn't want us to have a silly name.

Like there's a team called They Might Be Giants because they're all so tall or whatever.

Anyway,

and so we are, our team name was, and in a funny turn of events, still is Andrew,

which is Andy's name.

That's Andrew's name.

Indeed, even though he no longer skips us.

I thought you were going to give me some

cringeworthy pun here in your curling name, but you just gave me this weird anti-comedy.

Yeah.

Is the third person on your team Norm McDonald's ghost?

Yeah, you know what?

The name of this team is curling team.

Okay, so you don't find that as funny as I do.

I find it funny.

It's just you zape.

I mean, like, this is some, this is some true skip stuff here.

You curled left when I thought you were going to curl right.

I thought it was so funny that it distracted me from the thing you said before about people wearing costumes.

Is it like, I immediately imagined everyone in a dolphin costume.

Is that what it is?

Are you all dressed up?

Are you all wearing Andy masks or something?

Is that why?

No, that was the team.

That was the name name that andy gave us when he was our skip and that name oh persists even though he is no longer our skip let's be clear here the traditions of curling are the team is named after the skip and so the name was not given that is how names are assigned curtis are you now the skip oh goodness no no i'm the worst player on our team uh so the play the basically the team is made up in players in descending order of or ascending order of skill.

So the worst player goes first, the second worst goes second, and so forth.

And the skip, who is always the best player on your team, goes last.

So who's that person?

Not Andy's wife?

No, she's just getting back into it.

It would be really good if you renamed your team Andy's wife.

That would really drive the rock home, if you know what I mean.

Do you want to dress up in costumes?

I mean, you mentioned that Andy was against them.

So are you for them, Curtis?

I thought it would be funny if after Andy dumped us, if we started doing all the things that Andy hates, like wearing costumes and having a silly name and that kind of thing.

I think it would be funny, too.

I think I have a sense of what my ruling is going to be.

And to be clear, the costumes might be the wrong word.

Uniform.

might be a more proper term of what teams might wear a uniform where they're all matchy matchy curtis what have you seen people wear on the curling ice?

You know, like plaid pants.

There's one team that their joke is that they are the official curling team of Sealand, which apparently is a

old like oil platform out in the middle of the ocean that is a fake country or something.

Yeah, I've been down this Wikipedia rabbit hole many a time.

It's an old oil platform, I believe, off the coast of Ireland or Scotland or something.

And some eccentric purchased it and has, I think, is still alive, but created a currency and a constitution.

And he is the sole, I believe, the sole occupant of the fake nation of Sealand.

Right.

Well, Sealand has an official curling team or maybe unofficial curling team.

And they hang their little flag at the end of the ice when they play.

Andy would, Andy would not approve of that kind of approach.

Andy, is it true that you don't want curling to be any fun at all?

I have been accused of this.

What do you wear when you curl, Andy?

A sweatshirt.

And nothing else?

Sweatshirt and curling pants.

And curling shoes.

What are curling pants and curling shoes like?

Well,

you need flexible pants because it's you need flexibility.

Believe me, I'm all over that since 2020.

Flexible pants.

Flexible pants, a little warm sweatshirt, and then you have a special shoe that you wear that has Teflon on one side and a grippy on the other side, and you're sliding down on that Teflon.

So you don't like curling teams to be matchy-matchy, even in the Olympics?

Oh, no.

Recreational curling.

Ah, gotcha.

I'm, I'm not, I get uh, for Halloween, I don't dress up for Halloween.

I'm not a, I'm not a dressy up kind of a guy.

Andy, you're saying you don't feel worthy of matching pants.

I think it's a little

not

matching fashion uniforms.

Correct.

It is.

It's

presumptuous to be wearing a uniform in recreational curling.

Wait, so all this talk about curling outfits, I think the only thing that I know about curling is curling sweaters.

Curling sweaters are like a big, heavy, shawl-collared cardigan.

with this kind of striped placket down the front,

a little bit like the sweaters that old-time baseball players used to wear, or a cowchin sweater from British Columbia.

Do curlers not wear curling sweaters?

To me, that's the whole point of curling.

Do you not wear these things when you're curling?

They are amazing, and there are those that wear them, especially some of the oldies.

But nope, sweatshirts have taken over again.

The game is evolving.

Yeah, it's past the oldies, John.

So, Andy, you moved on.

You left your team behind for this more competitive team.

What are they called?

This is team

again.

Yeah.

Two?

Like many of you, I understand.

That sounds less like a sports team and more like a tractor company.

You're with this new team now.

You've left Curtis in the ice dust.

Why are you still watching?

Curling is very interesting to watch.

When you understand the sport, it's very fun to watch.

And to be honest, it would be nice to watch.

It was their first game, first of all, you know, and continuing to watch is it's an enjoyable game to watch people play when you know the game.

I picture you when you're watching your wife curl with your ex-friend on your old team, that you're watching this at two o'clock in the morning on replay alone in a garage somewhere, just crushing cans of Labat's beer in rage as you then text with your left hand, faster, faster.

Would that Does that set the tone properly?

I believe I was in the bedroom at 7 o'clock, I believe, was the game.

And no, I was not drinking beer.

Just in your bedroom alone without your spouse.

She was off across St.

Paul playing with the team that still bears your name.

Is it the fact that this team still bears your name that you feel you have to watch and comment on Curtis's play?

Do you feel it reflects on you?

I believe it does, to be honest.

Would you feel better if Curtis changed the name of the team?

No.

Well, no.

Actually, I'll take that back.

No, they should become their own team.

And I think the reason it was my team is because it was a late decision of whether I was going to still curl.

And so the assumption was that it would still be my team.

And so the club still designated it as my team.

But I do feel that they should make their own team and they should wear funny uniforms and call it as they wish.

Does your wife share your name?

She does.

And that was the benefits of her playing in my spot.

Yeah, but she's not the skip.

Is it too late to change your name, Curtis?

I mean,

I honestly don't know.

I'd have to go consult with the person, you know, there's not very many people who work at the curling club, but there are a few.

And I guess I'd have to.

Do you think anyone cares except for Andy?

Andy, does anyone of the St.

Paul Curling Club care about curling as much as you?

Oh, yes.

Is anyone as preoccupied with the integrity and dignity of curling as much as you?

I'm up there, but yes, it is the first thing that you learn when you join the sport is the etiquette and the history and the traditions of the game.

You learn that from the oldies?

You do learn that from the oldies.

The first time I came, there's a learn to curl and they laid it out saying, here's how this works.

You shake hands, you, you, uh, before the game, you shake hands after the game, and when you're done, you go upstairs and you share some beer.

At the Belfast Curling Club, they call that you can curl.

The reason being that most people, when they see a curling club, think, I just haven't got it in me.

I think there's a fairly intensive learning curve when you're watching someone slide a piece of stone across the ice and the skip is yelling things at them at the broom brushers or whatever.

I could see how that would be intimidating.

I mean, there's a reason that I haven't gone to the Belfast Curling Club.

I'm a little intimidated to go.

I will say that all are welcome.

It is a sport.

One of the draws to the sport is you don't have to be overly athletic and you can play it for fun.

You can become, you can take it to the highest levels.

Yeah, but my worry, Andy, would be that I would go into the Belfast Curling Club, right?

And I'd start playing with a team.

And eventually my skip would say to the team,

you all aren't good enough.

I'm going to go with another team.

See you later.

Good luck.

I'm out of here.

And I'd be like, oh, I guess I'm not a good enough curler.

And then I, oh, hey, wait, I just got a text.

Oh, yeah, it's my old skip telling me, not a good enough curler.

I mean, that doesn't seem fun to me.

Andy, you sent in evidence.

It's a poster from the club.

Is that right?

It is.

It is specifically regarding the issue that you find most abhorrent in Curtis's play, which is speed of play.

And we'll post this, of course, on our show page at maximumfund.org and on our Instagram account.

And I best not get a cease and desist letter from the St.

Paul Curling Club.

I'm going to tell them Andy sent it to me and gave me permission to post it.

Yeah.

Sorry, oldies.

Yeah.

Get out of of here, oldies.

Good luck.

I'm out of here.

Who decides the strategy?

It says, goal, play each end in 15 minutes, eight-end game in two hours.

Most shots should be decided by the skip alone.

Very rarely, the front end should join in very rarely on only the most crucial decisions.

What was important to you about sending in this chart?

Again, it's Curtis's complaint is that I was complaining about them playing too slow.

And this is a major problem at most curling clubs.

I call this a chart, but it's really just an illustration of some people curling and then some captions yelling at you to

not say or do things.

Let the skip call all the shots.

Except very rarely, the front end can call the shots.

This is a sport that you claim to be very, very fun for all.

But it seems very bossy, honestly.

What is Curtis and his teammates, were they doing and are they doing that's taking up so much time?

Too much chit-chat?

Is there a problem that it's too democratic for you?

That

the vice in the front end are offering ideas as to where to throw the rock more often than very rarely?

They're not necessarily offering up their suggestions, but they're not ready to throw once it's time to throw.

Just like in golf, ready golf.

But

what's slowing them down?

Chit-chat?

What's slowing them down?

Socializing?

So when the other team throws their rock, what you should be doing is you're getting ready to throw your rock while that rock is traveling down the ice.

Oh, I thought what I should be doing is getting ready to take orders from my skip unquestioningly.

Sure.

And in rare instance, the front end for the most crucial decisions.

I thought I have to just be a robot for my skip, an ice robot for my skipper.

Okay, but you're telling me I should be watching the other team throw?

What?

Once the other team releases their rock, you get in the hack and you get ready, your rock cleaned and you get get ready to throw.

But what they tend to do is as the other team throws, they're watching that rock get down, wait till it to come to a stop, and then they get ready to throw their next rock.

Doesn't it behoove them to know where the opposing team rock stops so that they can make a plan to either knock it out of there or get close to it or whatever they need to do?

The skip makes the plan and then tells them the plan.

So they should get in the rock.

You could watch the travel of the rock from the hack, but you should be ready to go as you're watching the other teams throw it.

So their play is not robotic enough for you.

Do you think curling would be benefited if the teams were one skip and

three androids?

Do you think it would help if over the PA system, they played that cartoon factory music that goes

so things continue without stop throughout the course of the ends.

Yeah, you got to throw those rocks with industrial timing.

Here's one of the things.

So it is the ultimate team sport.

It doesn't sound like it.

No, it sounds like the least of the team sports.

It just sounds sounds like one guy names the team after himself and then gets people to be bossed around by him.

So these three dummies of yours.

Please, please, John.

Servants.

They're all servants.

How is this the ultimate team sport then, Andy?

I'll let you explain.

In baseball, you have a pitcher throwing to a batter and the other players are sitting around waiting for something to happen.

In curling, skip is sure.

They're calling the strategy, but the person throwing the rock needs to execute.

The people sweeping the rock, they are communicating the weight of the rock,

where they think it'll end up.

They're sweeping if they're

3.14 stone.

How are they communicating the weight of the rock?

Weight is the speed of the rock.

And you ask why people can't get into curling.

Well, the weight of the rock means the speed of the rock, and the rock means the stone, and the skip means the underling, and the ball, and up is down, and night is day.

We have different terms for everything.

By velocity, we mean the roundness of the rock, and the rock is perfectly round.

So everybody's doing, everybody's involved in every single shot at all times.

So in that sense, it's the ultimate team sport in that everyone is involved doing something according to a plan, as in basically every sport except baseball.

It's a natural part of

growth in the game, as is receiving texts from your former teammate.

What else do they do wrong?

You said it's not, this isn't the only thing.

What else do they do wrong?

Where else do they need to improve?

This could be your chance to get it out of your system once and for all.

It is that they are aware of their abilities and they are improving on their shot making abilities.

Is that the Minnesota nice way of saying they throw the rock bad?

They're getting better, but they throw it bad.

They're getting better.

Yeah, they're getting better.

Yeah.

Too slow.

Bad rock throwers.

They don't have their eye on the weight of the rock.

Again, all of that improves.

The first thing, again, is following the traditions and the etiquette of the game.

The etiquette of the game is never leave the ice angry.

Always shake hands.

There are no referees, so you police your own fouls and so forth.

And God, or whatever, damn it, pick up the pace.

Curtis, there is an issue, which is that if your team is taking too long, Andy has pointed out, you are inconveniencing the teams that are behind you waiting to play.

Or the other team.

I think he's

outraged on behalf of our opponents.

We'll get booted off the ice after two hours for the next one.

No matter what.

So you may be

by waiting out the clock, as it were, you may be denying your opponents scoring opportunities because there isn't enough time to play all eight ends.

Is this part of the new curling that you're coming up with, the new Machiavellian curling,

where you slow play it?

No, there's no strategy here.

The ice is slippery and it's hard.

And

I don't want to fall.

I have fallen many times on the ice and luckily have not been concussed.

I'm glad we're getting down to brass tacks, which is ice is slippery and hard.

And you're wearing Teflon shoes.

Exactly.

Well, Teflon on one side, grip on the other.

Curtis, how does it make you?

How did it make you feel when you started getting texts from Andy during play?

I felt like it was unwelcome feedback.

I welcome feedback from Andy or from anyone on how to play better,

how to, you know, get the rock to stop in just the right place and how I deliver it and my technique and all of those things.

But like, I feel like the idea of playing any faster than I am currently playing

just adds danger to my personal safety.

Andy, we know how you feel about riding four-wheelers with children driving.

Is danger part of the appeal of curling for you?

I have fallen.

i messed up my right side a couple years ago falling but i will say it to counter curtis i was not criticizing curtis it was the other two members of the team that were dilly dallying more than curtis got it husband focused on wife criticism

finally we're getting into this on judge john hoshman

let me just let me just remind myself the original team that goes too slow in your opinion

they were getting in two hours they were getting off six ends

i know the game in question that i watched they i believe they only got six ends out of their eight in out of eight possible correct and curtis have you improved on that because curtis i don't know a lot about curling but that's terrible is it only getting six yeah

i think it's been it's rare that we ever get in eight ends i think eight ends is aspirational and fairly unrealistic Aspirational in the traditional term, like it is an aspiration of mine, or aspirational in the contemporary term of like, that's never going to happen.

More the latter.

Have there been any complaints from anyone else at the club other than Andy?

I am so glad you asked.

No.

Only Andy has ever complained about this.

The other teams that he is supposedly speaking on behalf of have never said anything about it.

And I've also noticed that they don't always get right into position either.

But to be fair, Curtis, do do any of the other teams have someone at home in their bedroom that has Andy's wife's phone number?

I really, I really don't think they do.

I think Andy is unusual.

This has happened once or more than once, Curtis, that you receive these texts.

The text was only once, but the text is emblematic of a line of critique that Andy

has been employing since before he left our team even and has only been amplified after he left that we play too slowly.

So he, in addition to the texts, went on long monologues about this afterwards.

So it's not this is going back to when he was on your team.

Well,

he brought it up then, but no, even since he left, he's continued to criticize our speed of play.

Are you here bringing him to my fake court of internet justice because of the criticism, or are you trying to punish him for abandoning your team?

Well, I think if I'm being honest, I think there's a little of both.

I think, you know, it did hurt a little bit when he fired us as his team.

That said,

I accepted that.

And it was when that abandonment was coupled with what I felt was unfair criticism that I thought I needed to seek justice.

We had a little technical breakdown for a moment.

We were off mic for a little bit, and you revealed, Curtis, that you are a native of Anson, Maine.

That's correct.

So you are a person from Maine living in Minnesota.

That's right.

So given that, I have to applaud you for the barest amount of emotion that you let yourself acknowledge exists in you and sharing some of it.

And I'm working on it.

I'm trying.

Now, Andy, that you've heard Curtis's explosion of emotion, that you're leaving the team made him feel bad.

How do you feel?

May I

go back and

rebut one of his points from earlier?

Incredible St.

Paulian deflection of emotional content.

Let's put a pin in the emotion question and let me go back and talk about something completely different.

Technical matters to address.

Go ahead.

You may rebut.

So the question was asked, does anybody told you you play slow?

And one of the fundamentals of curling is you do not criticize opponents.

You do not, if somebody burns a rock, which is if you're sweeping and the other team hits the rock with their broom, it is upon that team, that player, to call their own follow.

And if your opponent sees it, they don't say anything.

They wait for you to acknowledge.

And if you don't acknowledge it, they will hold it against you, but they will not bring it up.

And the same thing as another team.

This is a sport

built for resentment, specifically as a resentment builder.

It's incentivized purely by grudgery.

So another team will probably not bring it to your face that you played too slow, but they know you played too slow.

You're of the opinion, it sounds, Andy, that the other teams are seething.

That is correct.

For their speed of play.

And you are prohibited, both of you, from asking directly if this is a problem for anyone else because it goes against the passive-aggressive etiquette of curling.

Correct.

And Minnesota.

True, fair enough.

And if I may, one other point is: I played yesterday and we played an entire eight ends.

Where does bragging fall in the etiquette?

No, no, no, no, no.

No, no, the point is I discussed this with the team

curling tonight.

I brought up this case.

All right, eight ends.

Go ahead.

I brought up this case.

Well, we come up with it.

Did you pick it up a little bit, by the way, Andy?

A little faster with this answer?

I wasn't going to say anything.

I was just going to know that he was going too slowly.

And his punishment was him knowing that you knew.

Yep.

You brought up this case.

This is

a team I'm very friendly with, and we were discussing how nice it was to play eight ends.

A lot of times you get seven in.

Six is ridiculous.

You should get seven.

Eight's pretty awesome.

And so, and I did bring up this case and the, the, the accusations.

And they claimed Curtis has, this is an open and shut case in their mind.

You had a secret, a secret Congress with the other curlers.

I did.

In which Curtis was tried and found guilty instantly of going too slow.

Correct.

Well, correct.

That it is indefensible to

knowingly play slow curling.

Curtis, you ever think about establishing your own slow curling club?

I think everyone would be a lot happier in my slow curling club.

Not slow, just a little slower.

I mean, yeah, I thought it was supposed to be fun.

Are you still having fun with curling, Curtis?

Do you think you'll continue?

Yes, I am.

Yeah, and I want to get better.

And as I'm able, I'm open to playing faster.

But like, I just, if I start running back to the

starting block where you push off to throw the rock, I just, I'd worry I'd hurt myself.

And I'd rather work on, I would prefer to work on other parts of my game than the speed.

So you will continue to play then?

Yeah, absolutely.

All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I am going to go into my house and my chambers and contemplate, and I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hoshman exits the courtroom.

Andy, how do you feel about your chances in this case?

It's hard to say.

I do do feel that the speed of play is dictated by the game, and one should adhere to the rules and etiquette of the game.

They're right there on that poster.

Yes, they are.

Curtis, how are you feeling?

You know, I think I feel really good about the venue that this case is being tried in.

I'm glad it's not being tried amongst a jury of my curling peers because Andy apparently did that earlier this week, and I would have been instantly convicted and expelled from the curling club.

But I think the fact that we have a

reasonable jurist presiding over this, a non-curler, someone who can be fair and objective, I'm feeling pretty confident.

You appear before this tribunal to stand charges of defying the poster.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a break from the case, and San Francisco Sketch Fest is right around the corner.

I hope that the whole Bay Area and all of Northern California is on alert.

Get your tickets at bit.ly slash JJ Ho SF24 or just Google it.

Judge John Hodgman, San Francisco Sketchfest.

It's one of the highlights of our year.

We've gone to the festival and done some of our finest and strangest shows there.

And I cannot wait to get into that Palace of Fine Arts, the only venue with a lagoon that we will play in 2024, I guarantee you, for this sweet 4 p.m.

show.

You'll get home at a reasonable hour.

We'll all have a great time.

It's going to be wonderful.

So get your tickets now and get your cases ready, right, Jesse?

Absolutely.

If you live in the San Francisco Bay Area, maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho, share your cases with us.

We'll get you into the show.

We'll get you on stage.

We'll shake hands with you and thank you.

We'll take pictures with you if you'd like.

Whatever you need to submit those cases, maximumfund.org slash JJ HO.

And I hope we'll see everybody out there.

Bring your kids.

It's a pretty safe for kids show on a Saturday afternoon.

I hope we'll see everybody out there.

I love to go home to San Francisco and do these shows.

So

it's going to be a good time.

Will my

childhood best friend Jody be there?

Maybe Jodie will come.

I don't know.

Will my friend from high school, John King, come?

Will John's show?

Probably.

He usually comes.

Sometimes my mom brings him as her date.

You'll get to see the many generations of Jesse Thorne's life right there at the Palace of Fine Arts, January 27th at 4 p.m.

in the afternoon.

That's a Saturday.

Tickets are available at sfsketchfest.com or wherever you google your tickets up.

And remember to submit your San Francisco, Oakland, and other Bay Area disputes to maximumfund.org/slash JJ H O ding ding rice a roney, the San Francisco treat.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

First of all, I want to

let the folks at the Belfast Curling Club in Belfast, Maine, know that even though I now understand that your fun time sport on the ice is really just a game of recrimination and mutual passive aggression and automated responses to a skipper in which you are encouraged to have no opinion of your own or express it.

It's actually, you can have opinion of your own, but you're not allowed to say anything.

It's really about self-suppression, this sport, which to me sounds very much up my only child Allie.

But to others might not sound exactly fun.

But I believe, in spite of all of Andy's descriptions of the sport and its etiquette, that this is probably fun.

It's a fun oddball sport that everyone wants to do.

And I'll credit Jennifer Marmor, our producer, with the off-mic joke that it's pickleball on ice.

And I hope that it continues to be fun for you, Curtis.

I have a number of rulings, though, that I think will help not only resolve your issue, Curtis and Andy,

but also curling in general.

First of all, Andy, you said that you don't dress up for Halloween.

That is correct.

That's going to change.

Starting this October,

you will dress up as Leslie Nielsen from the film Men with Brooms.

Because, Andy, you got to lighten up.

I appreciate your belief in the dignity of curling.

And I agree with you.

And the other members of the club who were too scared to say anything until you asked them that Curtis and Prime are moving too slow and that they are inconveniencing the rest of the club.

I think that your criticism

is reasonable.

And I think, Curtis, while it might be hard to hear,

most notes are hard to take.

Whether you're writing a screenplay or

you're participating in a sport or whatever it is, when someone comes to you with a note saying, you know what?

You curl too slow.

It hurts, especially if it's from a friend and former teammate.

But sometimes you got to take those notes.

You got to take them like a rock to the house.

It hurts, but you just, sometimes you just got to take it and think about it and be mindful of the fact that for once someone in Minnesota told the truth to your face.

And even though he's no longer a teammate, that means that Andy is a true friend.

But Andy, you're not the skip of this team anymore.

And while your note is a reasonable one, and it has been expressed, that must be the end of it.

You have left them in the dust of the ice.

They are but a few small miniature waving people in the rear view window on a four-wheeler driven by your 10-year-old.

You cannot give them notes anymore.

The note has been conveyed.

That's it.

They know it.

You know it now, Curtis.

You play too slow.

Even though it's just curling, kids,

leaving one team for another because Curtis and his friends don't play well enough for you,

that's painful.

If you have not offered them

an apology and a beer, you owe them that.

But I'm not sure that you have acknowledged the emotional component of what you've done in order to claw your way to the top of curling.

You've literally left a friend and a spouse behind, and they no longer should carry your name.

The break must be honored.

Prime must have a new name.

And I say this, Curtis, for your own mental health.

You can't let the ghost of Andy hover over you this way, even as an ironic joke.

You have to forge a new path

and you have to forge a new identity.

When I heard that these teams were coming up with funny names, ooh,

I was like, yeah, this should totally get into roller derby territory for you.

Because Curtis, you're curling a different way.

You're not curling for the dignified internal seething fun of traditional curling.

You're curling for fun the Curtis way.

which is also known as fun,

like taking it easy, having a good time, trying not to fall down on the ice.

But you're playing for real fun.

So I think that it is fair that you should have a real fun name.

Now, I'm not great at these puns.

You listen to the Punderdome episode that we did with Joe Firestone.

I'm terrible at it.

So I'm going to go ahead and throw it to the Maximum Fun Reddit to come up with some good names for your team.

So everyone go over to maximumfun.reddit.com and start coming up with some good, fun, punny, curling sports teens names for Curtis's band of friends.

And Curtis, you can go over there too, and you can pick one that you like or come up with one of your own.

You absolutely will be wearing vintage 70s curling sweaters from now on.

And it is going to be so matchy.

It's going to be so matchy.

It's going to make Andy's eyes cross.

Because this is the other part of the new curling game, the mental battle.

You're going to be coming in there with your wild name and your cool sweaters.

You're going to be playing a game that Andy doesn't even recognize.

And you're going to get better at core curling, but you're also playing the big game, the mental battle with your old mentor.

Soon, you will become the teacher.

And the way this movie ends, Men in Brooms 2?

I mean, I'm already writing the screenplay.

So, Curtis, I'm ruling in your favor in the sense that Andy owes you an apology for quitting the team, and you're going to accept it.

That's life.

That's life on the ice.

And that Andy can no longer give you this note or any other note because it's not his team anymore.

He left you behind.

So, I am ruling in your favor, Curtis.

But, Curtis, Andy and I agree.

You got to curl faster.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Andy, how are you feeling?

Disappointed that I lost, but I have always felt that they will go on their own at some point.

And that was the point where they go on their own and I will back off.

Curtis, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling,

you know, a bit smug, but also chastened.

I know that Andy knows 10 times more about curling than I do and more than I ever will.

And he's obviously from a for the good of the game, he's right.

And I, and I, I will try to curl even faster than I already am.

Um, I accept the ruling.

Well, Curtis and Andy, we sure appreciate your time.

Thanks for coming on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We're going to have Swift Justice in just a second.

Our thanks to Redditor M.K.

Becker for naming this week's episode Obstruction of Justice.

Just ice.

If you have thoughts about the verdict, go to maximumfund.reddit.com and chat with your fellow Judge John Hodgman listeners about what went down this week.

We also ask for the title suggestions there.

So head over there and name next week's episode.

You know, I also,

even if, like John and me, you're not exactly a super pun generator, I always enjoy seeing the long list of puns.

Oh, it's amazing.

It's amazing.

Evidence and photos from the show are both at maximumfun.org on the episode page for this week's show and on our Instagram account at judgejohnhodgman.

Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Derek Ramirez at Minnesota Public Radio.

Our editor this week is A.J.

McKeon.

Marie Barty Salinas runs our social media.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

The Redditor Umbrellaist Red says, My partner and I went camping.

He said he would bring, quote, the bedding, unquote.

He brought sheets, blankets, a mattress, and a pillow for him,

but no pillow for me.

I think this is wrong.

Yeah, that's wrong.

Bring a pillow for your partner, obviously.

Hey, we are now into the year 2024.

And, you know, all this sporty talk got me remembering this is an Olympic year.

We just heard a dispute about a sport that people generally don't care about except during Olympic game times.

Well, that's not true.

They care about it in Belfast and in St.

Paul and parts of Canada and Scotland.

But yeah, a lot of people don't think about curling until it's up on their Olympic screen.

And I know or guess that there are more cases out there about the so-called less common sports.

Do you have a case surrounding modern pentathlon?

Yeah, that means you, Donna Vichalis.

Yeah.

Do you have a beef with a fellow synchronized swimmer?

Can't synchronize it properly?

Bring that beef to us.

Do you think indoor volleyball is better than beach volleyball?

It's not in the Olympics yet, but I would love to get some cases about pickleball or any niche sports or emerging sports or newish sports, non-major league sports.

Send us your niche sporty cases to maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

And it doesn't have to be sports cases.

We take all sorts of cases.

We're especially looking for cases in the Bay Area right now.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO is where you submit those beeves.

No cases too small.

And if you like the show, please tell somebody about it.

Write a review.

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How about you use your mouth?

to tell someone in real life that you like listening to the show and they might too.

I know that one's a mind-bender to recommend something to an actual human being through human interaction, but I think it might work.

That sounds fun, Jesse.

But I'm going to tell people: just share our stories on Instagram, won't you?

It really helps.

It really helps make the show more visible.

Honestly, it's incredible, it's incredible.

So, if you share and save those things, it really helps.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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