Convection Overturned

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, convection overturned.

Jeff brings the case against his wife, Jen.

Their home came with a very unusual appliance.

When they moved in, Jen gave Jeff one year to enjoy this device before removing it from the house.

The year is now up.

Jeff wants to keep it.

He says this contraption is the centerpiece of their living room.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

I take a nap in the afternoon.

I come down for dinner.

Then I close the place.

To me, that's living.

Going on vacation is not living.

This is my life.

I like to talk to people.

We're not pushing business.

We're fine with our regulars.

That's good enough for me.

Apré moi, le déluge.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Jeff and Jen, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that none of his foods rotate?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Jeff and Jen, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced as I entered this courtroom.

Jeff, do you have a guess?

I believe that is

Cheers Fan Fiction written by a obscure French artist and then Google translated back into English.

That's quite a guess, Jeff.

Cheers, fan.

I'm going to write all of that down just to just to punish you.

Cheers, fan

fiction.

It's only going to take about seven minutes.

Recorded,

right, French, translate, done.

Okay, wrote it down.

Jen, do you have a guess?

You want to hear it again?

Yes, please.

Okay.

I'm so glad.

This time I'm going to sing it.

A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H.

I take a nap in the afternoon.

I come down for dinner, then I close the place to me.

That's living.

Zoo, Zoo, Zoo, Zoo.

And then it goes on for a little bit, and then it says, à pré moi le deluge, luge, luge, luge, luge.

All right.

In this case, I sung it.

Did that help?

No.

Okay.

The first thing that came to my mind, and I know I'm totally off bass, was where's Alice?

Where's Alice?

Good question.

Where is Alice?

And what is, what are you talking about?

Isn't that a movie?

I feel like it's a movie.

Where's Alice?

It's probably a movie.

Sounds like it's probably a movie.

But there's like a restaurant involved.

Oh, Alice doesn't live here anymore.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you.

That was made into the TV show Alice.

Thank you.

Okay.

That was set up.

That was set at Mel's Diner and co-starred Vera, played by Beth Howland, who sang, I'm not getting married today today in the original Broadway cast of Company, which has been on repeat in my brain since the first time Jesse Thorne, you mentioned the documentary about the making of the original Broadway cast recording of Company, Beth Howland.

Heroic performance by Beth Howland.

And an incredible performance by Nancy Myers, who I only knew as the spokesperson for Shanana.

She sings 100 times Other People Get Off the Train.

She was the announcer for Shanana.

Wait a minute, what were we talking about?

Oh, right.

Obscure Cultural Reference.

I sang it to the tune of I've Got a Gal in Kalamazoo by the Glenn Miller Orchestra because you are, we are reaching you, Jeff and Jen, in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

That's a very fun place name.

But all guesses are wrong.

As interesting as your guess was, Jen, it was wrong.

And Jeff, as long as yours was, was also wrong.

I was quoting from the obituary of Robert Trebou.

restaurateur who died at the age of 87.

And he was expressing his life's philosophy as the proprietor of the very storied Manhattan restaurant, very famous for it, not changing its menu for decades, the Vaudo, and not caring, that it was woefully and wildly and wonderfully out of date.

That what he does is he just takes a nap in the afternoon, goes down and talks to people.

For him, going on vacation is boring.

And then he said, apré moi le deluge, which was originally attributed to Louis XV,

which is something he said apparently to his favorite mistress, Madame Pompadour.

And people interpret that as like, after me, it's the French Revolution.

Who cares?

He was actually talking about when I die, Halley's comet's going to come and cause the world to flood and all civilization will end.

So let's live it up.

And who cares?

Generally, it's an expression of who cares what happens after I die, which is sometimes interpreted as a capitalistic,

gross thing to say.

because we're not thinking of the next generation.

And sometimes you're a wonderful restaurateur who's just like, I'm not going to change my menu.

Who cares?

Apré moi le Deluge.

After me, the flood.

After me, life doesn't exist.

Now, why?

Why did I quote from this guy?

Well, he did own Le Vaudur.

He also owned a traditional French restaurant in Manhattan called Le Menois.

But he also owned one, Jesse Thorne,

called La Rotisserie Francaise.

Jesse, I bet you know why La Rotisserie Francaise is an important part of culture, right?

I do.

That's where where the original Rotisserie Baseball League was founded and organized, rotisserie baseball being the progenitor of pretty much all American fantasy sports.

Yeah, and they called it Rotisserie Baseball after this restaurant.

Yeah, because they happened to be eating rotisserie chicken at the time.

They thought of the idea.

Yeah,

they put it.

It was Daniel O.

Krint and a bunch of other sports writers and baseball enthusiasts and media people put it together in 1980.

And

it caused a big thing.

Would you say that fantasy sports chess is a big thing?

It is a big thing, and it's all due to Daniel Oakrant and his rotisserie baseball team, the Okrant Finokis.

No.

Yeah.

No, you're joking me.

The Oakrant.

Serious.

Well, there we go.

Take it from me, a guy who sat in the aisles of Aardvark books in San Francisco and read old copies of the Rotisserie Baseball Handbook.

When I found out that Rotisserie baseball was named for a restaurant called Rotisserie Francaise,

I was like, maybe

I ought to learn this game.

But I haven't yet and I never will because we've got a case to settle here.

And this case involves a rotisserie.

Who seeks justice in this court?

I do, Your Honor.

Jeff, tell me about your house and what is the contraption that you consider to be the heart of the home.

The house is a 1950s-built,

normal

two-level house with a basement and a upstairs.

In Kalamazoo.

In Kalamazoo, Michigan.

You have a house in Kalamazoo.

We do have a house in Kalamazoo.

A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-I-J-K-L-M-N-O-P-Q-R-S-T.

You have a house in Kalamazoo.

Standard two-floory house that...

Two floory.

Would you say your house is two-floory or just floory enough?

It is two-floory, but not floory enough.

I would always love a third floor if possible, but we can only live with what we have.

And what's in the middle of the home?

The middle of the home is

a former patio that has been turned into an enclosed room sometime in the 60s probably by the original owner named Bruno.

The

room was built to enclose a rotisserie, which is about six feet by seven feet wide.

It has a slate.

countertop with a fireplace in the front of it, and then about a six and a half foot wide rotisserie in the back of it.

Now, people are thinking, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Is Jeff talking about a baseball league?

No.

You're talking about a spit that you put chickens on or other meats or other foods.

And

you rotate them in front of this fire.

That is correct.

So this was a patio, originally an outdoor appliance that became enclosed when they enclosed the patio into a kind of a sunroom deal.

That is what we think.

The exact history is not clear, even though we have contacted or been in contact with the daughter of Bruno.

We still don't know the exact provenance of when the rotisserie was built, if it was outside, if it was inside.

I have a theory based on a secret tunnel that is inside the rotisserie.

All right, we're going to talk about the secret tunnel for sure.

But I want to hear Jen's response to this.

Jen,

why would you want to remove the rotisserie

from the now enclosed patio other than the threat, I presume, of carbon monoxide poisoning.

That looms large for sure.

I think having an indoor large cooking device like that just

sketches me out a little bit.

The smells, the potential risk for burning down our house, and the fumes it creates, because we have used it a couple of times now, and it is quite smoky.

The exhaust fan doesn't quite work the way it I think it was intended to, or maybe it's not as powerful.

So it's not my favorite appliance.

So is it primarily, so are you making the case that it's primarily a safety issue?

Yes, I would argue that yes.

What are your additional issues?

So my mother, who lives in our basement apartment, suffers from pretty severe asthma.

And the last time we did use the rotisserie, the smoke was pretty noxious.

And she did complain, you know, and I don't really want to put her into an asthma exacerbation, have her end up in the hospital.

So this is not,

you're not opposed to having a rotisserie in the home on principle.

It's just that it doesn't work properly.

It's not ventilated properly.

And Jeff's trying to murder your mother.

I don't know about the last part.

They do have a pretty good relationship, so I don't think that's probably intentional.

All right, Jeff, you send in some photos of this rotisserie in the room that contains it.

I'm going to click a link on here.

Okay, all these photos are available, obviously, on the showpage at maximumfund.org and on our Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Well, this is a really cool home, Jeff.

I got to say,

I feel like I'm leafing through the pages of an interior decoration book that I got at the Big Chicken Barn from 1979.

Tile floor, a lot of wood, and a cool-looking rotisserie, and a very cool,

Jesse, what would you call that style of chandelier up there, that light fixture?

Is that MCM or no?

It's like late.

mid-century modern.

It's certainly modernist, but it goes with the rest of this sort of 1972 architectural aesthetic.

Yeah.

This is a classic 1972 Kalamazoo two-story decor type home.

Although, to be fair, it also has a sort of 1984 marble trim on the walls.

I just noticed that.

There may have been some updating there.

Do you know,

if you haven't already told me, Jeff, when was the house built?

Do you know?

Did Brunette or Bruno tell you that?

I believe it was in 1958, but this came in later.

Okay, and I see from the other angle, it looks like there is a wall with two windows looking into the kitchen proper,

which presumably was an exterior wall of the home at one point.

That is correct.

And now this is all enclosed.

And there is a hood over the rotisserie.

And

is that a fire pit?

Yes.

In the front of the rotisserie is a fire pit.

It's a gas fireplace where the flames just kind of go up.

And then behind that is the four different flames that make up the rotisserie.

So it's all gas powered.

It is.

Highly poisonous.

What did you cook on the rotisserie when you were attempting to kill your mother-in-law?

Let the record reflect that upon having had his equipment described as highly poisonous, Jeff made a

face.

I'm just saying, as someone with asthma, I've started to notice that anytime I use my gas burner, I feel like garbage.

And I'm probably going to move on to an induction type situation in the future, even though I've always loved cooking with gas.

That's something that I'm thinking about.

What were you thinking about when you you tried to kill your mother-in-law, Jeff?

Delicious chicken?

Well, we started off with a delicious duck, which was the inaugural use of the rotisserie once I fixed it up.

Then we did a chicken and finally we did a turkey about two weeks ago and thinking that we would do a practice run for Thanksgiving.

And the amount of smoke in the house was overwhelming and we nixed that idea.

And you said that you had fixed it up.

What did you do to fix it up?

When we purchased the home last year, the hood didn't work.

So I had to replace the electric motor in the hood and do some wiring, which was 1960s amateur, I would say.

So that was, and it also replaced the actual rotisserie motor and the spit itself.

So there was quite a bit of maintenance that needed to be done.

Jen, is Jeff a handy person?

He is.

He actually has his own handy business.

Oh, really?

Yes.

So you have faith that he did the best he could given the materials that were presented to him?

I do.

I do.

I definitely have faith in his abilities.

So you talked about the smoke getting noxious and causing your mother to have breathing difficulty or be uncomfortable, shall we say.

Was this during the turkey experiment or the duck experiment?

This was during the turkey.

I don't recall the previous ones.

Because you fainted and fell down and hit your head?

I'm not sure if she was even present.

She may have been out of town when we did some of those.

How was the duck?

How was the duck, Jen?

The duck, meh, the chicken was pretty good.

The turkey really tasted good.

Even though it smoked everything up?

Yeah, it tasted amazing.

I know.

I feel terrible saying that because I feel like I should be like, no, it was awful.

No.

No, it was very good.

I'm very curious about this contraption.

What did you think about the rotisserie when you moved in, Jen?

Oh,

a lot of feelings.

Just, it's just odd.

And it's just impractical.

I think it's more a practical and like, why?

Why would we use an indoor rotisserie?

Like, we're not going to be having pig roasts, like, cooking a goat.

I don't know.

It just, I guess, the impracticality of it.

I'll grant you that this room is somewhat strange because I'm looking at another angle of it now.

I guess I'm looking away from the rotisserie into what used to be the patio.

Is that right?

That's correct.

I skipped down a couple of photos to this one that is featuring beautifully and appropriately a huge fern or some kind of frondy plant, which seems very apropos of Kalamazoo tooth flory, late mid-century modern Takori.

Yeah, the plant appears to be taking up a full third of the room.

That looks like you've got a pretty nice mid-century modern like sideboard with a, is that an accordion perched on top of it?

That's correct.

That was my grandmother's accordion.

Would you say, Jeff, that this third of the room is the fern and accordion area?

You said it, not me.

You know, in classic late mid-century modern Kalamazoo houses, Jesse, there was always an accordion and fern pit.

Well, they call it the rule of threes, John.

Any enclosed patio is one-third fire, one-third television and sitting area, and one-third accordion and fern zone.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

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Did Bruno or Brunette, his daughter, give you any indication about why they enclosed this?

Yes.

So I've been able, through internet research and talking to the family, figure out that Bruno was quite the entertainer.

So his daughter told me that when it was a patio, he used to go out onto the patio and bask in the sun and look upon his garden, which he had encased in marble.

because he was actually a marble tile and terrazzo entrepreneur in Kalamazoo,

perhaps one of the most famous kalamazoo entrepreneurs of those three materials and um i think he

we don't know for sure if the rotisserie was there while it was a patio um there's some evidence that makes me think that there was

but um clearly he wanted to entertain all year long And I believe that's why he enclosed it.

This is a man who has modified this house many, many times with many, many marbles, tiles, and terrazzos, and just could not stop himself from adding new

features into the house and yard.

Looking at these photographs, it's very clear that your house, like a prime steak, is well marbled.

Jevin says here that you're now a handy person, but in the past, you've been a college teacher, a farmer, and a truck driver.

Janet says you're a nurse practitioner.

These are all interesting and wonderful jobs.

I like you both a lot, but could you leave and get Bruno?

We need to exhume him.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, and it's not going to be easy getting into his tomb.

Only the finest marble.

And Terrazzo.

I'm not surprised here to look at exhibit C now, which is captioned marble and tile throughout the home.

Jen, what's going on with all this marble and tile?

Ooh,

it's a mishmash.

It's a, yeah, a lot of patterns, a lot of different colorways.

We've been trying to accommodate our sort of style around it, but definitely having plans to sort of remodel some things in the future.

Yeah, but Bruno went a little bit brunanas in the situation here.

Agree.

A lot of different tile patterns all over the place.

And then, is this a litter box?

Yes, what you see, yeah, in the sort of the side, there's like a little side cubby underneath the slate part of the rotisserie.

You know, let me congratulate you both, first of all, for being the first couple to not send in a photo of their pet, but instead a photo of where their pet poops.

I don't think we've ever had a litter box on the show before.

What's this litter box doing underneath your rotisserie?

It looks like it's in a, it seems like it's in a litter box-shaped hutch underneath the rotisserie, Jeff.

That is correct.

Um, when we got our kitten, uh, we had the

decision about where we were going to put the kitty pooper, and we thought that the farthest place away from any sort of food, ironically, would be in the rotisserie itself.

So because we don't use the rotisserie a lot, we could put the kitty pooper in the rotisserie area and it would be hidden.

The smells would be somewhat minimized.

That was the idea.

Definitely when I'm visiting my friends in Kalamazoo on their enclosed patio, the thing that really brings a party to life when they're rotissering up a duck is the smell of hot kitty litter.

Seems like this is a room that is still finding its purpose, wouldn't you say, Jen?

I would agree.

Yes.

As you can tell, there's sort of some has been very decorated and we've kind of gotten our aesthetic and then the other part is still kind of in progress.

And when you gave Jeff a year

to enjoy this rotisserie and the year is up now, what do you want this room to become, Jen?

I guess so far we've used it as like an entertaining space, which I do like.

Like we were able to use it because it's got that the palm can be moved.

It's on casters.

So when you move the palm, get a third of our space back.

I think the next step is obviously to motorize the palm.

Yeah, can you, can you put it?

Can you tape it to a Roomba?

Ooh, I hadn't thought of that.

I feel like you would love that, Jeff.

Well, that would be a heavy-duty Roomba, but I'm sure with enough time and money, we could do it.

Jeff, I'm just saying you could be the mobile palm king of southern Michigan.

Can I use that for advertising purposes?

Yeah, of course.

We get 10%, right, Jesse?

That's our thing right now?

15.

15.

Sorry, 15.

My boss says 15.

That's the best we can do, Jeff.

I'll take it.

Okay, so you can move the palm around.

You envision using it for entertaining.

Yes.

Do you have a more, do you have a specific vision for it that might differ from Jeff's?

So in my perfect world, the rotisserie device itself is gone.

We can keep the slate little bar area, get some bar chairs, have it as sort of like a sitting sort of chatting area.

The couch is also on casters because it's MCM.

And so, you can turn that and you can have people sit there and maybe have my daughter do a little dance in the middle, you know.

I love that.

I'll come to this caster party.

One thing that's great about casters is they move very smoothly over, guess what, everyone, tile floors.

Jeff, you agreed that you would remove the rotisserie after a year.

It's coming up on a year.

It's not working as you had hoped.

The vent doesn't do the venting, despite your handiness.

Don't you think it's time to let it go?

No, I don't.

I think why not?

When you purchase a house that has an enclosed rotisserie

and then you meet the family members of the person who installed the rotisserie.

You have a moral obligation to keep that rotisserie and make it work, to invite people over for a party, to enjoy a roast poultry or maybe a roast pig.

We were told that Bruno would roast a pig every year on the rotisserie.

After the patio was enclosed?

That is my understanding.

It was the 60s or the 70s.

I think people were more okay with having large amounts of smoke amongst them.

When you say you buy a house with a rotisserie, you have an obligation to keep it.

Are you concerned concerned of a vengeful ghost type situation?

That Bruno's going to come back from the grave?

I wouldn't be surprised if he was buried in the backyard, considering all the things I found of his back there.

But I'm not a superstitious person, but I do feel a kinship to Bruno in a way.

His gregarious nature excites a past gregariousness in me that I would like to keep because this rotisserie is

It's sort of a window into a different type of person that I want to be.

I want to be an entertainer.

I want to have a rotisserie that I can show off to people.

It just, it wasn't something we were looking for when we purchased the house, but I just can't, I don't want to let it go.

And instead of adhering to our agreement, I brought this case because I believe that you would

see in my argument that it was necessary to keep it.

Have you considered investing in a mid-century modern carbon monoxide alarm?

Yes, we're thinking about getting a few canaries, perhaps.

Jen, you sent in the photo of all the tile and stuff.

Is there other work that needs to happen in this house?

Is there other ways you want to exorcise the ghost of Bruno?

Yeah, some,

I guess, yeah, the flooring, some of the windows in that room are not ideal.

Probably not the most energy-efficient windows.

Probably the main thing.

And then the outside.

The outside needs a fair amount of work.

Speaking of...

the transition between inside and outside, Jeff, you had mentioned a secret door.

I did.

And somehow I didn't get into that right away.

So let's get into it now.

Let's walk through that secret door together.

What are you talking about?

You'll see in Exhibit D, Your Honor, that there is a secret door in the rotisserie room adjacent to the rotisserie that leads from the inside to the outside.

It has two latchable doors on it.

All right.

Well, it's not a secret door.

You can see it.

It's just a door that's purpose is somewhat secret.

That's correct.

We don't know why it was there.

And also, if you weren't looking for it, you wouldn't necessarily see it.

It looks like about a foot square cut into a really highly stuccoed wall beneath a very thick beam of like looks like teak wainscoting.

But it's a foot square hatch with looks like a metal door on the inside and the outside.

And my question to you is, why don't you put a little ramp on either side and retrofit this into a little cat door?

It looks like what they would call a milkman door,

a place for deliveries.

But the truth is, is that the wall is not wide enough to deliver milk into.

And so

it truly is of baffling purpose.

That said, on the opposite wall, there are windows to the inside of the house.

Now, to me,

you know, you know.

my reputation, Jeff and Jen, John Hodgman rotisserie detective.

You've seen my show on HGTV

where I look at old rotisseries and homes and I'm like, how is this supposed to work?

To me, all right, the rotisserie, if I'm looking right at the rotisserie, right, to the left of it is this hatch to the out to the outdoors or the other side of this wall, correct?

Is that what I'm seeing?

Yes.

And also at the end of the rotisserie on the left is this hutch.

There's an enclosure.

Opening, yeah.

Do you know if this rotisserie, Jeff, was always powered by gas?

That I don't know.

And I think that's an interesting supposition.

You see where I'm going with this.

I do.

And I agree that we should probably turn the rotisserie into a wood-fired rotisserie, which would certainly reduce the amount of asthma-inducing smoke.

I beg to differ strongly

as a connoisseur of both gas fumes and fireplace smoke,

I've breathed them all, and they're all pretty noxious.

But what I'm getting at is, I wonder if, and this is just pure speculation, you can talk to Brunette about this, but I wonder if there was wood that was stored on the other side of that hatch, and that you would open that hatch to throw wood into the house,

and then you would store the wood underneath the rotisserie where your cat litter box is currently.

That's just a guess, maybe.

I don't know.

It's an excellent guess.

There is also a secret door within the fireplace area that would lead evidence to perhaps that it was an outdoor rotisserie at some point.

Well, I thought we knew that it was an outdoor rotisserie.

We don't.

We don't know.

We didn't look at the aerial photos.

We don't know if the rotisserie was built

at the time the patio was enclosed or if it existed before the patio was enclosed.

You're saying that the rotisserie may predate humanity.

That is exactly what I'm saying.

You're saying that Bruno saw this rotisserie and built this house around it because Bruno knew that if he ever got rid of the rotisserie, that the house would be cursed forever.

I agree.

The rotisserie has existed since a time when Kalamazoo was ruled by accordions.

Now, you just suggested something else, Jeff.

Now you're suggesting converting this to a wood-burning stove.

I was not serious about that, sir.

You weren't?

I wasn't.

Why not?

I would burn the house down at that point.

Would you?

I was.

I used to be a firefighter, so I don't know how that would stop me from burning the house down, but I'm trained.

How many jobs have you had?

And what are you running from?

Oh, that is an excellent question.

You got more career changes than that guy, and catch me if you can.

You were a professional firefighter or a volunteer firefighter?

A volunteer.

But you, of all people, should know this is not meant to be this way.

This thing was built as part of an outdoor entertainment area.

Bruno is a delight, but you know, we don't know how Bruno died, do we?

I do not know.

Yeah.

Maybe we should check Brunette.

Could be something like

rotisserie poisoning.

But Jen, when you talk about all the tile in the house,

is this a situation where it's like, I would like to be spending our budget

redecorating all of the weird tile.

rather than pouring it into further refinement of the rotisserie.

Is that what's happening here?

I don't know that specifically, but I do think we've probably put enough time into the rotisserie.

Like, it is what it is.

So we've used it.

It's, you know, noxious at best, although it does make a good turkey.

Yeah, and I would like to spend a little more time doing some of the additional housework that is needed.

Jeff, I know that you're scared to get rid of the rotisserie and with good reason.

But I also wonder, have you done any exploration about how you could make it safer and less noxious in that space?

I have considered it.

When I put the new motor in the rotisserie, I got a lower-powered motor, thinking that a higher-powered motor would be too loud.

And I could certainly get the higher powered motor.

Noise pollution isn't the issue.

Exactly.

Now that we've experienced it, we know that noise pollution is not the issue.

Air pollution is.

I believe a higher-powered motor could exhaust more fumes more quickly.

I've also learned that I can put a box fan in the window or two, and that helps to exhaust.

No, no, no.

If you're trying to get rid of ghosts, you can't put a box fan in there, Jesse.

That will only increase the number of ghosts in your home.

Yeah.

And the box fan is going to chop up your air supply.

It's like you've never even listened to this podcast, Jeff.

I'm sorry, Your Honor.

Besides, I'm talking about real ventilation, Jeff.

Where does the hood go?

The hood goes to a commercial vent on the roof.

So that should be working.

It is.

But it seems like it's not powerful enough.

That is correct.

So maybe that's where you would focus first, your attention, rather than putting box fans in the windows.

I agree.

Have you consulted with a kitchen designer or an indoor fireplace person or, I don't know, a firefighter that you might know?

I'm too stubborn to consult with people.

Is that why you leave all your jobs?

Yes, sir.

It's like, no, I drive the truck this way on the top of the truck.

Sorry, that doesn't work.

I'm a firefighter.

I just throw, I throw one bucket of sand and then I go away.

Sorry, that doesn't work.

I'm sorry, I'm too stubborn to adapt.

Now you're a handy person.

Is there anyone you can consult in Kalamazoo about indoor fireplaces and so forth?

There is a fireplace shop that I have frequented.

It's where we actually purchase those lights that you mentioned.

And I could ask for advice there.

And yet so far you haven't.

No, I'm afraid.

What are you afraid of, Jeff?

Talking to people.

You're doing a great job today.

Thanks.

How much are you willing to spend to upgrade this thing to get it working?

I'm willing to spend any price within our,

you know,

I shouldn't have asked you.

Yeah, thousands, hundreds of thousands?

Whoa,

okay.

All right.

That's, well, I guess, hey, Jesse, I need to change careers and go be a handy person in Southern Michigan.

Well, you need to change careers 47 times and then become a handy person in Southern Michigan.

Jen, you heard about Jeff's attachment and fear of eventual ghost of Bruno.

Does any of that resonate with you?

No.

I'm not sure they're 100% sincere.

I don't know that that's the full driving force.

Really?

What do you think is the crux, Madam Crux finder?

I think it's the stubbornness.

I think he wants to keep this because

he likes it and it's his sort of project.

Jeff has a long storied history of projects.

Go on.

What's another project aside from his many careers?

We have had multiple vehicles in previous homes that just sort of lived in our garages and our barns and became sort of tinkering projects that lasted forever and ever.

So this feels like one of those projects to me.

This is a whole different kettle of fish, Jeff.

Do you have a history of taking on projects and not completing them?

I don't think I've ever not completed a project.

Well, one of you's lying.

He has finished them.

He just takes a very long time, and they tend to take up a lot of space in our properties.

So I will say this is the least sort of cumbersome one.

Is that why you had to move to Kalamazoo a year ago?

Because your previous home, it says you're in Vermont, was full of old, old trucks and projects, and you had to leave?

Not exactly.

No, that was not the primary reason, but.

It definitely having less space here minimized the chances that he could acquire more vehicles for tinkering.

But little did you know that there was a machine right inside the house.

The project is coming from inside the house.

Indeed.

Jeff, when you first moved in, how did you envision the rotisserie in your life?

I envisioned it as a

place where we could entertain people around food.

I have in the past had pig roasts when we used to be farmers and I had it.

And after talking to our neighbor who had attended one of Bruno's pig roasts 30 years ago, I really could imagine that, oh, this is an awesome place where we could actually roast a pig, have potentially 40 people in our house, have this huge party.

Um, that's how I envisioned it.

And you sent in some video of the rotisserie in action, which I'm going to take a look at now.

Okay, yes, I see a lot of blue flames eating up.

Is this a pigeon or is this rotisserie really, really big?

I mean, if that's a full-size chicken, you could fit like 10 chickens on that spit.

It's huge.

It's huge.

I don't know what I'm hearing.

Is this the motor or the fan mechanism?

It's probably the motor of the rotisserie itself.

Yeah.

This was the initial try, and I did not heat shield the motor very well, and it got a little too hot.

I'm hearing a lot of motor, but you know what I'm not hearing enough of?

Fan.

So obviously, Jen, if I were to rule in your favor, you want me to enforce the contract that you made with Jeff that he entered into willingly and remove the rotisserie

and turn it into a classic Kalamazoo slate tiled bar or something, right?

Yes.

And Jeff, if I were to rule in your favor, I mean, you entered into a contract.

What are you looking for?

An extension?

What?

I would settle for an extension.

I would love a blanket forever extension to improve the rotisserie in perpetuity until it becomes the ultimate appliance for our house.

The ultimate appliance for our house.

That doesn't mean that it has to be the ultimate appliance in the house.

Anyway, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jeff, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling good.

I think the judge, I've experienced his wisdom in the past.

I know he's a lover of food.

I know he's a lover of spectacle, and I believe that he will see how important it is to maintain the rotisserie and improve the rotisserie and to honor Bruno and Bruno's ghost.

Spectacle.

Yeah, that's great.

Jen, how are you feeling?

I think the judge is probably going to rule in my favor, more towards me in my favor,

partly because he does not want to see my mother injured or maimed by this, by said rotisserie.

Jeff, have you thought about picking up any new careers?

Yeah, the motorized fern business.

I could totally transition into that.

If you could combine millennials' love of houseplants with millennials' love of vacuuming, these motorized ferns are going to make you rich.

You can terrazzo your entire home, at least that small portion of it that is not already terrazzoed.

I love the idea.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we're back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening and if not we just leave it out back and goes rotten so check it out on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts

all right we're over 70 episodes into our show let's learn everything so let's do a quick progress check have we learned about quantum physics yes episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else, too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a break from the case, but not from our preparations for San Francisco Sketchfest.

That's right.

We're returning to San Francisco January 27th.

A wonderful 4 p.m.

show at the Palace of Fine Arts.

Why, Jesse, it's a palace of fine arts, and we're going to fill it up with as much live justice as it can take.

And we would love for you to be there with us.

You can get your tickets at sfsketchfest.com.

That'll give you the whole lineup of San Francisco Sketchfest, which i order you to peruse because everything there is wonderful if you want to go directly to get tickets to our show just go to bit.ly slash jjho sf24 that's jjho sf24 it's all in capital letters except for two four which are numbers uh i love sketch fest i've been i can't i've been thinking all year about coming back and we're going to have such a great time seeing you there bit.ly slash jjho sf24 and of course course, go to SF Sketchfest for all of the offerings that they are offering.

Jesse Thorne, what are you offering?

I'm offering the holiday season in the Put This On Shop, John.

As you know, and our listeners know, I have my own vintage shop at putthisonshop.com.

And we've just launched all kinds of incredible products there.

It's not just handmade pocket squares, although that is one of the things on offer.

It is also jewelry for men and women, antique treasures of all sorts.

Lately, a lot of rings and pocket knives,

pins from the beginning of the 20th century, trading cards if you need a stocking stuffer, all kinds of beauties and treasures at putthisonshop.com.

And because you are a Judge John Hodgman listener, I will give you 15% off anything with the code Justice, 15% off literally anything in the entire store.

So run over there and place your order so it gets to you in time for your holiday celebration and a gift for your favorite person.

You're talking about 15% off a Turn of the Century Tiger Hat Store display?

I'm talking about 15% off literally anything in the store, even this Victorian gold gemstone and pearl ring,

even some of the incredible Native American turquoise jewelry we have,

even this board game called On Tour, a game of music, money, and making it big.

What about the early 20th century dog breed pins?

Oh,

absolutely.

Those are so great.

I love those.

Those are from like 1910.

Man, they're tobacco premiums.

You know, they came with your pack of tobacco or cigarettes, and they're little and gorgeous.

And there are

so many breeds available.

All of this at putthisonshop.com and use that code Justice for your discount.

PutTisonShop.com.

Use the code Justice for your discount.

And don't try to buy the game Outdoor Survival, a game about wilderness skills because it's sold out.

Don't make the mistake I did and wait too long to get that game.

Get over there.

Put thisonshop.com.

Jesse?

Yeah.

We're still recording on this plug, right?

Yeah, we are.

I'm going to tell you right now, I'm going to go over to putthisonshop.com.

I'm going to buy a bunch of stuff for my family.

Oh, I love it.

People better get over there because I'm going to buy a bunch of stuff right now.

If they want any of this stuff, they better get over there because I'm out there doing it.

But before I go over to putthisonshop.com and use code justice, I'm just going to remind you one more time, get your tickets to San Francisco Sketchfest at sfsketchfest.com.

And we need your cases, of course, so submit them at maximumfund.org slash jjho and let us know that you'll be at the san francisco show.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Jen and Jeff, thank you for coming to speak to us here in the court of Judge John Hodgman.

Jen, I don't know if you share Jeff's purported introversion and fear of speaking to people, but whether you do or not, you both did a really good job of speaking to people, specifically me and Jesse.

And Jeff, I think you did a very good job of speaking to me

because I want you to listen to this.

Listen to this.

You know what this is the sound of?

That's me tearing up the contract.

Yeah.

I'm tearing up the contract, Jen.

This is not, I am finding in Jeff's favor.

Why?

I love spectacle.

Because I

absolutely, I absolutely is like, I could not, I would not be able to so easily give up a rotisserie that was left behind in a house that I purchased wherever it was, Kalamazoo.

I don't care.

That rotisserie is, that, that demands to be the heart of the home.

The hearth of the home, arguably.

And what would it be like to just

roast 10, I'm not going to even say what it is, 10 chicken-sized things

while you're listening to some cool music on the hi-fi and

enjoying the friends that you're making there in Kalamazoo.

Maybe Bruno's daughter will come over and cry.

This room is coming together.

And I'm afraid if you take that rotisserie out, it will fall apart because it's not where it needs to be yet.

I think that you both know it looks a little haphazard.

It needs a little refinement.

I'm not talking about

a lot of renovation on the non-rotisserie side of the former patio.

I'm just talking about a little decoration.

It's coming together.

For one thing, I don't like the way that that accordion is just sort of left unstrapped up there with its bellows kind of out.

Like you got to tighten that up and put the straps on.

That's your mother's grandmother's accordion over there.

And you got a wire rack thing that doesn't fit in the decor,

and it's you're and the room doesn't flow because you've got a nice, nice looking couch, but it's facing away from the hearth.

You need to figure this out, you need to figure out the flow of this room because whether it's a bar or a rotisserie,

the room isn't flowing correctly.

And my argument is that it should be a rotisserie.

Here comes the caveat for you, Jen.

If possible, I don't know that it's possible to have the rotisserie

in this space and have it be safe.

And this is where you need to talk to a lot of people, Jeff, because safety is, and I'm not just talking about burning down the house type safety, although that is a concern, but air quality safety.

This thing was not built to be inside of a home.

There are lots and lots of homes that have gas fireplaces, gas stoves,

wood-burning stoves.

My friend Adam,

he built his home around an indoor wood-burning cooking hearth.

And it's got a thing that you can raise and lower.

And, you know, he just puts wood in there and burns it.

And he has a thing to raise the meat up or raise the vegetables down, whatever it is.

And he cooks on it all the time.

It is in the home, but it is ventilated on purpose from the beginning to get the smoke out of there and keep the ghosts happy.

And when I'm looking at this video, what's clear to me is that,

first of all,

the motor is too loud.

Frankly, I don't know why you haven't hooked up some kind of a treadmill for your cat to walk on to rotate the chicken.

You know what I mean?

That's, I mean, you're already got the litter box over there.

The motor is not ideal because it's making too much noise

and that will be distracting to your parties.

So you might need to figure out something quieter or just maybe turn it yourself.

And the other thing is, you got to be hearing a big old fan.

And I do not see an appropriate ventilation fan.

I don't think whatever they've got built in there is enough.

You need to put in a real hood over this thing and that will cost money.

And even then, it might not be safe, you know.

You need to do some air quality tests.

You need to do some consultation with your friends at the fireplace store.

They'll know how how to make this work.

And you want to talk to some friends at the fire department in Kalamazoo.

You know, just show them your former firefighter card and they'll give you the inside dope on whether this thing can work or not.

I'm giving you six months to do a feasibility study.

That's half the time you've had to almost burn your house down with a turkey.

In this time, you have to.

talk to professionals, figure out how to properly ventilate it, talk to firefighters, figure out if it's possible to ventilate it properly figure out some a motor solution such that it's properly heat shielded and not too noisy i mean the fan's going to be noisy itself you know what i mean and then you bring that feasibility study to me and i think it would be appropriate for you to cc jen too and i'll make a final ruling on whether it's okay to go forward i need i'm talking about cost And I'm talking about like what it's going to cost to make it 100% safe because this thing was not built to be indoors.

You have to retrofit the whole area around it.

And then,

Jen, you can reconsider.

And unfortunately for you, Jeff, you know, Jen does have a veto on this.

If it's too expensive or just not feasible, then we'll have to find another way.

But I'll give you six months.

I'll give you six months for you to keep the ghost of Bruno away.

I'll give Bruno another six months of peace in his lasting marble tomb.

This is the sound of a gavel.

judge john hodgman rules that is all please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom

jen

how do you feel about this extraordinary spectacle slash

mortal threat to grandma weezy

oh i would tell my mom that's her new nickname um i mean i i think it's fair I think the three month or six month, you know, trial, I suspect that I will ultimately prevail in the end.

So, yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with this decision.

Jeff, how prepared are you as a professional handyman to meet these demands?

Conducting a feasibility study sounds like the perfect job for me to do.

I will provide one that is more detailed than one could imagine.

The feasibility study itself will be a spectacle that will be well received by the judge.

It'll allow me to prevail in the end, I hope.

But I do respect that Jen gets the final veto, as she should.

She's already allowed me to get essentially a six-month extension.

So this is a great outcome for me.

Jen, Jeff, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We'll have swift justice in just a moment.

Our thanks first to Redditor M.K.

Becker for naming this week's episode Convection Overturned.

You can join the conversation at the Max Fun subreddit, maximumfun.reddit.com.

That's where we ask for those title suggestions.

And there's always fun conversation about every episode of Judge John Hodgman.

You can see all the marble and turato in this home at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman or on the episode page at maximumfun.org.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Ian Gorman at La Luna Recording in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

Our editor this week, A.J.

McKeon, Marie Barty Salinas, runs our social media.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment, Pet Hens from the Maximum Fund subreddit says, please rule that the Lilliputians were right and Gulliver should be blinded.

I had to really run to the Gulliver's Travel Wikipedia page to remember this detail.

So, Jesse, a little background for you.

As you know, Gulliver traveled.

Yeah.

And he washed up on the shore of Lilliput and was captured by the Lilliputians, who were these little people, these little teeny tiny people, and they tied him up and then they let him go on the condition that he would help them fight their war against Blefuscu,

which was another island.

And he does, but then he betrays them.

And he declines to conquer the rest of Blefuscu.

And consequently, he is condemned as a traitor by the Council of Liliput and condemned to be blinded.

And he escapes to Blefuscu.

So that's the backstory on that.

And thinking it over real quick now, I'm just going to say Swift Justice.

Gulliver was kind of a jerk about it and didn't fulfill his promise.

But on the other hand, blinding is a cruel and unusual punishment.

You know, they say an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

And then if you blind Gulliver, that's the end of his travels.

It's mean.

Okay, as of this episode's release, it is December, Jesse Thorne.

Did you know that?

I did know that it's December.

The end of the year is nigh, at least the Gregorian calendar or Justinian calendar.

I don't care about it.

The point is, we're excited for another Judge John Hodgman office holiday party.

In my case, it's an illustration of a Mexican maiden calendar that I got at the restaurant down the street from me,

La Abeja.

You're going to make me hungry for that food.

I know.

It's great food.

And I'm hungry now because I'm thinking about this holiday party.

We always have some weird treats and unusual snacks that people send in.

Remember that tomato soup pudding or whatever it was?

Oh, yeah.

Remember that

orange soda and eggnog?

That was suggested by Pam from Seattle.

And Jesse, we had an opportunity to meet with Pam during the meet and greet after

the Van Freaks Road Show live stream.

And she mentioned she has a new treat for us to try.

a new beverage combo that i i don't want to reveal it now because i want you to listen to this episode but it's going to blow your minds when you hear about it, everybody.

It borders on the alarming, but also on the potentially thrilling.

So, what are your favorite holiday foods and drinks?

What are the old family traditions that you've unfortunately had passed down upon your taste buds by your aunts and your uncles and your grandmas and your whatever?

I don't want any more of that tomato soup salad because we've already tried it.

Tell us your holiday must-haves.

I'm done with my question mark under must-have.

Tell us your holiday must-haves at maximumfun.org/slash jjho.

Give us your weird holiday food, but we also need your disputes.

We do indeed.

No matter what your dispute is, send it to us, maximumfund.org/slash jjho.

I'm not opposed to you drumming up disputes for the purposes of this program.

If you need to do a little drumming, yeah, you be our little drummer boy.

Maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

Exactly.

Perump a pump pump it up.

Maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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