Getting Justice Today

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

We're in chambers this week, clearing the docket.

And with me is the entertainment industry's foremost triple threat, Judge John Hodgman.

So, anyway, Kristen, what you need to do is you just need to replace the struts, like on an El Camino, you know, just pop in some hydraulic struts.

John, you have to introduce our guests.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were here, Jesse.

I was just talking to my friend Kristen Anderson-Lopez, and down below her in the teleconference screen, I see uh her friend uh partner a husband and whole human being in his own right Bobby Lopez also my friend and whole human being in his own right

apparently has no rhythm couldn't couldn't slate with us on time couldn't clap couldn't clap it was just a little earlier just a little little anxious a little ahead of the beat ahead of my time yeah and we're just talking about uh hydraulic struts jesse we're just having a good time because we're old pals because How do you fix this droopy tailgate?

Yeah, exactly.

My tailgate has been drooping on my station wagon.

Keeps hitting me in the back of the head while I'm leaning in.

And I mentioned to Kristen that I used to have a similar issue with the tonneau cover on my El Camino when I drove an El Camino, and that just had hydraulic struts.

And I just went and got new ones and snapped them.

Pop in some new hydros.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm a real gearhead.

Welcome to Car Talk with Bobby Lopez and Kristen Anderson Lopez and me, your judge, John Hodgman.

We're about to start reading some email forwards.

I love Car Talk.

Of course,

we're not just pals.

We are also co-workers.

You know, in their profession, Bobby and Kristen are celebrated and renowned and very good songwriters, having written the songs for certain movies like Frozen and Coco

and also the songs and created a romantic comedy musical television show that happens to be called Up Here.

Now, I'm not promoting the show, Bobby and Kristen.

No, we can't.

The Writers' Guild is

not.

Yes, Writers' Guild is on strike.

I am not recommending that anyone see this show, but it is a matter of historical record that you made a show called Up Here on Hulu, and I played the weird dad Tom in it.

And it's a matter of historical record that it's a heartwarming toe-tapper of a show.

But I can't say that you should go see it because I'm a member of the Writers' Guild of America, and I am proudly on strike with my fellow union members.

We are fighting for a livable and predictable predictable living for union writers in Hollywood, New York City, and the world.

So

go check out my Instagram page, my Lincoln bio.

You can see all the information about the Writers' Guild strike and how you can support that strike, which you should.

But that doesn't mean that friends can't talk to each other, right?

That's right.

Absolutely.

Or even confess that we wrote the entire series so that we could work with you.

It was just all

just a very evil plan to how do we make, how do we bring more John Hodgman into our life?

That's very kind.

You know, when I was a literary agent, I had one rule.

Never write a book in order to have written a book.

You know what I mean?

Like you have to have one inside of you that you have to get out.

You don't, the reason for writing a book isn't to have written one.

It is to say a thing.

And similarly, never write a musical romantic comedy in order to work with John Hodgman.

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'm glad to be a part of it.

Anyway, a while ago, we put out a call to you, the listeners, for disputes regarding the theater, the musical theater and the non-musical theater, the Broadway stage and the off-Broadway stage, the legit theater and the illegit.

And you came through with a whole bunch of disputes.

And I thought, who better to help us adjudicate these theatrical disputes than two top theatrical professionals?

whom I happen to know and really adore, Bobby and Kristen.

Anderson Lopez, welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Show.

Hello.

Now, before we get into it, sorry, you were going to say something.

No, I was just going to say thanks for having us.

Our plan worked, Bobby.

You can infiltrate my life at any time, at any time.

But before we get into it, I know that you are listeners to the show, and I'm very grateful for that.

Have we gotten anything wrong lately?

Do you have any beef with any of my beef settlings of late?

Anything wrong?

No.

Well, I would just assume that everything you say is right.

Well, I thought you were fans of the show.

Apparently not.

If you were a real fan of the show, you would have written me three emails in the time in the time I asked that question.

But we don't play a lot of board games and we don't, you know, we've never, we've never even read the rules of settlers of Catan.

Right.

Well, no, it's okay.

In some respects.

No.

Look, you get what you get and you don't throw a fit.

And I'm grateful for your listenership no matter what.

Got a lot of letters about that one.

Bobby told me about the get-what you get and you don't throw a fit.

And I thought that was actually a really wonderful nuance.

I didn't get to listen to that one because sometimes Bobby wakes up earlier than me

and

consumes, consumes the podcast before.

And I know you've done many, many

shows about when a spouse consumes the show that you share together.

We've broken that rule.

I don't know what rule there is.

I just listens to is fine to say consumes makes me feel like you want to wear my skin or something.

It's a little bit cannibalistic.

I was telling Valerie before that that Sketchfest was epic.

Just

a true classic.

Just unbelievable.

Beep.

Remember that when we commissioned you to write the songs for the musical adaptation of that particular episode?

We're here.

It's time.

Beep.

Let's get into the cases.

We have some cases, right, Jesse?

Here's something from Amy in Evanston, Illinois.

The school I work for produced a run of Sondheim's Musical Company a few years ago.

And Kristen and Bobby, when Amy says Sondheim, she's referring to the musical theater

composer, lyricist, songwriter, Stephen Sondheim.

Stephen Sondheim.

Yeah.

Stephen Sondheim.

If you want to wiki that.

Thank you for that clarification.

The director of the show made a choice that, in my opinion, ruined it.

They updated it from its original setting in 1970, giving all the characters smartphones.

This throws the entire concept into chaos.

For example, there are plot points about getting lost in a car.

Impossible!

If you have a smartphone.

Also, Bobby's friends feel the only way for him to meet a girl is through them.

What What about internet dating?

Please rule that company is set in a very specific time and should not be updated.

Hmm.

Now, Bobby and Kristen,

you know, we lost Stephen Sondheim after an incredibly long and amazing life last November.

I never had a chance to meet him.

Did you?

We did.

I mean, Bobby really is the first one who met him.

He did

Bobby's.

Bobby, did you deliver Stephen Saunders' person

I thought we were kind of the same age but okay wow all right well you look great

what a career change

he knew Bobby first I mean um he actually did Bobby used to stalk him much like we stock you now um and uh

he and his high school friend went and dropped a demo tape a cassette at Sondheim's house and then Sondheim ended up doing his college recommendation.

What?

I know.

It's going to blow your house.

I didn't know this.

I didn't know this.

The guy wrote back to anyone that ever sent him a demo tape.

He was just

the absolute model of

what you should be as an artist, paying it forward.

He had received.

But you didn't send him one.

You dropped it off.

First of all.

That's creepy.

If someone had dropped off, if you had, if you, you're my friends, If you dropped off a demo tape to me, I would be like, I would say to my wife and a whole human being in her own right.

Bobby and Kristen are getting a little weird.

Well, after my friend and I had dropped it off, and by the way, my friend's mother had found a way to

tell him we were going to do this.

So it was expected, but

the big joke.

By sneaking into his closet.

Is that how she found a way?

Her mom knew someone who knew someone, who knew someone, and

it was all it was okay, it was all okay.

It was not, it was not, it was a little creepy, but not too creepy.

No, no, no, no, I understand.

And, but what, what we just, you know, every time we thought about what his reaction would be, it always involved like

just like doing the sound of a toilet, right?

But no, no, he did listen and

gave me encouragement, and he did that to just anyone that's ever written a musical that's our age has a bunch of a stack of letters from Steve.

And

well, anyone who had the chutbah to actually

say like, hey, will you listen to my musical and give me feedback?

There are those of us who were too Lutheran to do that.

That were like, oh, no, I wouldn't want to bother him.

I don't want to waste his time like that.

I should probably just imagine what he would say.

And it would probably be something very critical.

It's like imagining what he's saying inside his mind in that company documentary as he sort of stands in the back of the room smoking cigarettes and looking contemptuously at the entire cast recording process.

Shaking his head, no, the entire movie.

Yeah.

We're talking about the D.A.

Pennebaker documentary, a cast recording, right?

Original cast recording, is that?

Original cast recording company, which is one of the great things.

I only watched it a couple of years ago after years of hearing how great it was.

It's one of those things that just delivers completely.

Well, let's bring it back to the case at hand, which is this case about company, which was the Santa Musical of 1970.

Kind of his big breakthrough, right?

Wouldn't you say?

Was that his first big original?

Happened?

Well,

beforehand, right?

He had already written Westside Story and Gypsy.

But the lyrics only.

He didn't do the music for those.

Right.

Yes.

And then he did

the full score for Forum and something called Anyone Can Whistle.

And then he took a couple of years off and

wrote

Company and Follies and alumni music, which

were one after the other, you know, three consecutive years of absolute brilliance.

But with regard to company, it's pretty much...

The overall consensus opinion is that this thing stinks, right?

Isn't that what he said?

You say on the street, the street of Broadway?

I think it was actually the opposite, that it was incredibly groundbreaking.

It was Sondheim also

breaking out of

his sort of traditional,

very musical theater, very

Oscar Hammerstein-influenced

kind of idea of what musical theater was, and allowing the pop culture of the time to penetrate not only the set and the theme, but also the music.

It's got elements of backrock and elements of pop in there, while also

going into Sondheim's more signature style, which is the sort of making the lyric the

form

that's going to determine the function, or the function is going to determine the form, I mean.

Right.

And so it's a series of vignettes, very contemporary for his time, as you say, about a group of friends, all of whom are married or soon to be married or coupled off except for one.

And they're all kind of reckoning with Bobby, not you, Bobby, but the main character.

Bobby, he's trying to decide whether or not he's going to have a significant other or not.

And it's, and as you say, it's, it's very, it was very groundbreaking and contemporary for the time, which was 1970.

How important is 1970 to the story of company, in your opinion?

Well, it was just done recently, and I thought it was a beautiful revival where they said it in the present, but they made Bobby a woman.

They crossed cast.

And

I thought it worked really well.

He had to rewrite a bunch of the songs to change male names to female names, etc.

He was involved with it.

I thought it was actually super funny.

It was the funniest company I ever saw.

But,

you know, when you...

If you don't have a great concept like that,

best to leave it alone and leave it in the 70s, I think.

my favorite part of the orchestration is this

this electric harpsichord sound

that could only have really it you know it proliferated in the 70s it was called the the RMI Roxy Chord and it

it has like a just the most brilliant kind of tinkly sound ever.

You hear it in the opening bars of Another 100 People Just Got Off of the Train.

Right.

Sung by Pamela Myers.

That's right.

In the original Broadway cast.

You know what?

Let's hear that Roxy Chord.

Valerie Moffat.

Can we hear a little bit of Another Hundred People as sung by Pamela Myers with the Roxy Chord in the background, please?

Another hundred people just got off of the train and came up through the ground.

While another hundred people just got off of the bus and are looking around at another hundred people who got off of the plane and are looking at us who got off of the train and the plane and the bus, maybe yesterday.

It's a city of strangers.

And also, I just need to note the performance of Beth Howland in that, who I had known as,

I think it was Vera from the TV show Alice.

But she's the original, she played

Amy in the original cast of company and had that song, I'm Not Getting Married Today, which is impossible to sing.

Pardon me, is everybody here?

Because if everybody's here, I want to thank you all for coming to the wedding.

I'd appreciate you going even more.

I mean, you must have lots of better things to do, do, and not a word of it to Paul.

Remember, Paul, you know the man I'm gonna marry, but I'm not because it wouldn't ruin anyone as wonderful as he is.

Thank you all for the gifts and the flowers.

Thank you all.

Now it's back to the showers.

Don't tell Paul, but I'm not getting married today.

And you see her singing this song, speaking of the lyric becoming the song, being the shape of the song, and having Sondheim go, no, you're doing it wrong.

She just did this incredible thing.

He's like, nah, you did it wrong.

So he was, he had different kinds of, he had supportive, he had supportive, constructive criticism and then just

devastating criticism.

He sort of pinches his finger at her and says, this is the permanent recording for all times.

As hard as it was to be a cast member for Sondheim, I think it had to be harder to be Sondheim living with that voice in his head all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Which I

actually want to go back and disagree with my partner and human in his own right.

Because I actually think it's very hard if you're going to set company in the 70s, it's very hard to sit there and not just go, he's gay.

Like, why is nobody else seeing that he's gay?

But if you update it and you bring it into this moment, you can kind of bring out new reference resonances, like the way that we are all so isolated now by our own digital lives and

these devices that we have.

And then you can start understanding like, oh, isolation in the case of this Bobby fellow who's keeping everybody at bay.

I think that the wonderful thing about theater is, and especially timeless theater like anything Sondheim has written,

is that

you can find new meanings, even if he was writing from a place, whether he knew it or not, of like what it was like to still be a closeted man in 1970 who didn't

wasn't able to get married and so had to deal with all of that

in his own life,

how

that loneliness and isolation

kind of can resonate now in so many other ways.

I love the music, the 70s-ness of the music.

So for me, it's hard to separate that from the setting and the costumes and the,

I don't know, I don't remember the getting lost in a car.

When was that?

Yeah.

What plot point is that?

There is no plot.

How could there be a plot point?

Well, maybe it's a detail from this one particular production because.

The fact is, as you say, there's just a scene like in Rushmore where there's two people in a cutout of a car steering.

But

there's literally not that scene.

Like maybe the husband and wife who wrestle fight over directions at some point.

It must be someone telling a story or remembering something.

Right.

Well, I'm sure that Amy isn't lying to us specifically.

It must be somebody.

Today is for Amy.

That's right.

Which is a lyric from company.

I saw the most recent production on Broadway,

which I was so thrilled to get to do.

John, actually, I tried to go see it in London when we were last at the London Podcast Festival, which is now, I don't know, six years ago or something, five years ago.

And it came to New York.

I was making plans to come and

stay in your guest bed

and go see it on Broadway when it transferred.

to New York.

And that was when the pandemic happened and it closed, I think, in previews or something like that.

And so I wasn't able to do that.

So

like the one, the thing that Symph to me symbolized coming out of the pandemic, you know, which obviously still is affecting all of us, but that there was light at the end of the tunnel was that show reopening and me going to New York and visiting you, John, and getting to go to that show.

I thought it was so great.

I was so happy that I got to see it.

I think I stayed home that night and watched like Picard or something.

Yeah, I think that sounds right.

And

I think like

there there is some truth in that while there are broadly universal themes, I think that

some of the

some of the juice of the show comes from expectations around coupling that are

different now 50 years later than they were then.

And I would presume that's one of the reasons that they switched the genders to get a sort of a different perspective on that.

But in addition to what Kristen said about the protagonist being obviously gay,

I think that the

kind of expectations around coupling are different.

And I can understand why that would complicate setting it in a contemporary context.

But for me, either one is cool.

Like it's such an amazing thing.

I do have to, can I ask you three this before you render your verdict, John?

Of course.

I have to request a sub-verdict.

Listeners to this show probably at this point know that I attended arts high school.

And my

wife and I did theater at that arts high school.

And I did a couple of musical theater performers.

Did you say that arts high school or bad arts high school?

Bad arts high school.

No, the arts were really excellent.

One of the things that kept me out of the arts until, of course, I was cast as the star of the hit television show Archer

is that when I got to college, I was like, this is way worse than my high school.

But yeah, really, really excellent,

talented people at my, at my high school.

And I was in a couple of productions, musical theater productions.

Once on Jordan Jesse Go, we had John Ross Bowie, legendary comedy guy and playwright, improviser.

And he said, what did you do in high school, Jesse?

You went to arts high school.

What did you do?

Mother Courage and Her Children?

And I was like, yeah, we did that.

with the three-penny opera.

Those two together.

But anyway,

a lot of Brecht.

Yeah.

So the musical theater thing was like a little set off from the rest of the theater department.

Theater department had its own productions.

Musical theater was like for all the kids in the school.

So some of the kids who were singers, for example,

or dancers would be in the musical theater productions.

And there was this big discussion one year.

There were a few like really serious, really talented musical theater kids.

And one of them was a girl who

I found true love when I started dating my now wife.

But

there were those who went before.

And

shocking.

And so anyway, I was in, let's say I was in discussions with this girl to join this production and

this girl and the principal and stuff.

And we ended up doing Little Shop of Horrors, which is great.

It was one of my favorite things.

So fun.

What a blast.

Nothing could be more fun than to do the comedy bits in little shop before alan macon and howard ashman

legends legends both

but before that the discussion was doing company and i had not seen it at the time so i didn't know anything other than i love little shop of horrors and i want to be the dentist in that um

but

When I finally saw company, and I think I saw the PBS version of it with Neil Patrick Harris et al.,

Like 20 years later.

I was like, wait, what did we want to do as 17-year-olds?

What was the...

What?

Like,

it was, this is a show about...

This is a show about midlife crisis, essentially.

Like,

you could argue quarterlife crisis, depending on how, but it's like a show about what it means to be a grown-up, essentially.

And

you dabbled in the sexual revolution as well, like the

whole Barcelona sequence.

But that part, that part was cool.

Like that part, no problem at my high school.

Like, I'm going to be frank with you, at my high school, much wilder things were going down than dabbling in the sexual.

But we were all doing a fair amount of various types of dabbling, even Barcelona, all the time.

Yeah, exactly.

And, but

we can stipulate that that's bonkers, right?

For 16-year-olds to do that.

So that's the sub-verdict that you would like.

All right, I'll put it to you, Kristen and Bobby.

Is company a show that should be put on by 16-year-olds?

And I'm going to, before you say anything, it's going to be yes or no.

And you're going to answer at the same time.

I'm going to count down three, two, one, and then give you your answer.

Ready?

Three, two, one.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Don't you want to sit in the audience and watch a sophomore single sing here's to the ladies who lunch?

When I was in fifth grade, I was pitching our sixth grade

play be Follies, which is about even older people.

Right.

Follies performers in a reunion.

Now that you say that.

There's a girl that I dated in high school,

now a lovely woman named Trinity.

Named Trinity Stritt.

Trinity would have destroyed Ladies Who Lunch.

So I take it all back.

Don't you want to see Jesse Thorne

at 15 saying, have I got a girl for you?

Wait till you meet her.

Yeah.

I'm glad that you accurately intuited that I would not be at the center of this production.

Just like this guy's an Orbach at best.

You got to save those pipes for your star turn at the music man.

Kristen, what were you going to say?

Bobby was actually in it at age 19, 20.

He was the jilted groom.

Oh, right.

You mean he was Paul?

Yeah, you were Paul.

Yes.

Jilted.

Yeah, and I had never realized that that was meant to be sung while wearing no pants, just a tuxedo and boxer shorts.

Well, but that's in one production.

In another production, it could be sung while getting lost in a car, even though you have a smartphone.

I mean,

the point is that there are, you know, as you said, Kristen, in theater, every time you stage a new production, you're reinventing it.

You're reinterpreting it.

You're offering different viewpoints.

And even Stonteim obviously approved of and rewrote songs for the switch in genders and took out some other dated material and rewrote it.

So I don't know that you could say that

company, while it exists in a specific context that's important in its history,

it lives in company time, basically.

It's like it's its own world.

And

I think that you can do it in a way that is neutral enough in its presentation that it retains the 70s.

the 70s-ish

music that you love so much, Bobby, but also invites more contemporary interpretation

that you like, Kristen.

Two great tastes that go great together.

Delicious company.

The question is, though,

should it have smartphones in it?

And I'm going to say here, and here, and here's, I'm going to ask for your opinion again: 3-2-1.

Should a production of company have smartphones in it?

3, 2, 1.

No.

No.

Sure.

Oh.

should it be the center?

Like, should it all be all about smartphones?

No, but there are telephones.

There's there's telephones in it.

And as long as you are telling a story using the words that the author put down, because you need to stay with the words and the music that were created

by the author.

Because there was authority.

There is a book writer in this case.

We should probably credit.

George Firth.

George Firth.

Like, you cannot change the words.

That's a big important thing.

But

beyond that, a production lives in a specific time with those specific people and that specific audience.

And that's the beauty of theater is that it continues to be a living, breathing organism with each production that you put up.

Well, I have to say,

I have been swayed, and I agree with Kristen Anderson-Lopez.

Look, there's a possibility that you could put smartphones into company and it's dumb and maybe this production was it.

But that doesn't mean you can't ever put smartphones or another update.

You've got to try it.

And in this case, Amy, I'm sorry you didn't like it, but don't tell Paul you're not getting justice today.

Let's take a quick break to hear from this week's partners.

We'll be back with more cases to clear from the docket on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This week, we are clearing the docket.

Here's a case from Daniel in Boston.

I recently made a new friend who's a passionate Broadway musical fan.

She's a millennial, and I realized she only knows musicals from the 90s and later.

No Rogers and Hammerstein, no Lerner and Lowe, no Frank Lesser.

When I told her my favorite musical was The Music Man, she said, well, I guess I can see that.

If that's nostalgic for you.

Oh, wow.

Valerie.

That shot's fired, Jesse.

Valerie, a broadside.

Please order she give The Music Man and other classics of the 40s and 50s a chance.

They can be enjoyed without irony or nostalgia.

Well, I would argue that there's a significant amount of irony embedded in the Music Man, but go ahead.

Go ahead.

You guys are the experts.

So, Jesse, I know that Music Man is very dear to your heart.

Bobby and Kristen, do you have a childhood fave?

Because the Music Man is Daniel's childhood fave musical.

Like, was there one that you really associate with just loving up when you were a kid, something that you just listened to all the time, maybe something that got you interested in musicals, or maybe not, just something that you love, that you would enjoy on a,

I hate to say it, but a nostalgic level?

I mean,

I have like 10,

but if I had to say what was the, what was the album that

really

opened the gates and made me sort of pledge my life to this art form?

It was Annie.

It was Annie.

Yeah.

Because there was someone who looked like me

who was singing about

that Kristen Anderson Lopez has no pupils in her eyes.

I'm wearing a red dress with a Peter Pan collar right now.

But yeah,

Annie was a gateway for many of us in the 70s and 80s.

But then immediately after was

Oklahoma.

I played Lori in second grade.

And

I mean, you know, what's more fun than somebody, a little second grader, seven years old, singing, I can't say no.

Bobby, what about for you?

What was your gateway drug?

Hair?

No, it was assassin.

The music man was one of them.

Yeah.

The music man was.

was was i you know i wasn't really aware that these things were old i just loved them and so we loved the music man my fair lady west side story just it was like a whole bouquet of wonderful stuff that just that that was you know and how were you introduced to these musicals did Stephen Sondime bring them to you personally

oh it's my my mom and dad they were they were they they loved it um

yeah

but i did love i did love assassins actually i i was 15 when it came out and i and i was like the president of the assassins fan club

it tracks folks.

It tracks.

He's so hot.

I actually have to

tell you about my My Fair Lady experience, too.

Please.

So my mom must have taken me to see My Fair Lady at a community theater somewhere.

I grew up in Westchester until I was 14.

And

that weekend, I guess she took me on a Friday.

And over the weekend, I wrote a 20-page adaptation from memory of

the entire My Fair Lady story, except I changed a few things.

I wrote an Eliza as a child pre-scene that was a lot like my classroom in the 80s.

And I also changed the ending to Eliza does not stay with Henry Higgins.

She leaves him and then goes and teaches all the Cockney.

people how to speak English.

Not dissimilar from how it ended at Lincoln Center a few years back.

But I'm saying

you're owed royalties.

You sent a cease and desist letter.

Litigation is ongoing.

Her teacher discovered this.

She was sent a copy of this recently.

We got it in the mail and I got to read it.

And it was all from Kristen's memory as a fourth grader.

So it contained

the very memorable line, Eliza, you ding-a-ling.

All over the place.

All over the place.

They're calling each other ding-a-lings.

Which I think

we have to do this concert.

We have to do Eliza you ding-a-ling.

Eliza, you ding-a-ling in concert, for sure.

Oh,

front row.

So, obviously, you know, we were all introduced to musicals outside of time, unless we were growing up like Bobby in New York,

front row, first opening night of Assassins, dressed up as Andrew Garfield, your favorite.

Most of us were getting these things out of the, out of our parents' record collections.

And I would listen to Camelot and I would listen to

what else.

My parents took me to see a production of Hair when I was about nine in Boston.

And I don't know that they knew that the Act one ended with full frontal nudity of the entire cast.

But

I think they would have been cool with it if they, I mean, they definitely were cool with it.

But it was very exciting for me.

I learned a lot that day.

Um,

and uh, uh, and Jesus Christ Superstar was big in my parents' record collection as well.

I mean, you know, obviously, they're all from the past because you're young, but they, but they don't, they don't feel like nostalgia acts to me.

Company doesn't feel like a nostalgia act to me.

So, what do we say to Daniel's millennial friend?

Well, I think that if she truly wants to keep exploring musicals and understanding them, you

You can't watch Book of Mormon without knowing that Music Man was highly influential.

You can't watch Hamilton without knowing Avida

was hugely influential in an autobiographical sung through musical.

All musical theater is in dialogue with what came before.

So, in order to truly understand it, you need to

kind of look back and and and you'll have these wonderful aha moments about

about the things that you love even if the music is is more resonant with what you are used to in this in this pop

synth world

you can still really enjoy broadening your understanding of of these things you that you love that's what i right Right, Daniel's friend, you heard it straight from Kristen Anderson Lopez.

And I quote, you can't watch the Book of Mormon, period, end quote.

So there you go.

I think that the further back you go in musical theater history, the closer you get to,

you know, to the original tradition of American musical theater of, you know, reviews, things that are about the songs, you know, things that are about production numbers of songs.

And you get into, you get further and further into shows that are about, here are our 12 best songs for this year.

And

many of those songs are, especially in the ones that you might see now, the productions you might see now, are some of the best songs of the 20th century and can be appreciated entirely without irony.

There's no irony necessary for those great songs of the 30s and 40s.

You know, they're just great standards.

They're the great jazz songs of our time.

And,

you know, the music man.

Here we go.

The music man, I would argue, is a bad example of this because the music man is, I think, itself a commentary on nostalgia.

Like, I think it is

in some ways an indictment of nostalgia.

Right.

But

I think in general, like

if you're really just talking about shows that are about beautiful songs hung on simple stories that are moving because music is incredible and it's fun to see people in costumes dancing, and that enhances the experience of songs,

what irony is necessary?

You know, like I think that there is this idea that like getting into sophistication in musical theater necessarily means

irony and self-reference and

all of those kinds of things or dialogue with other forms besides musical theater.

And

like, I think there is so much to be gotten out of what if we had a show of beautiful songs

that told a love story

and

had wonderful dancing and costumes.

You know, like there's really a lot to be said for that.

You don't have to.

Something that is unapologetically itself.

A musical that is not about being a musical.

Kind of like what we talked about at the first table read of Up Here.

Not that I'm promoting it.

But I remember when we did that first table read, it was your and and and Tommy Kale, the director of those first two episodes and your co-executive producer.

who was like, there are other musicals on TV.

Some of them are about being musicals.

Ours is just a story that is told partly in in song.

And why not?

And it's wonderful.

It's a thing that is just itself.

It is not in reference to anything else, I think, is sort of what you're saying, Jesse.

Yeah, and it requires no ironization.

Like, I think to some extent, the ironization of musical theater is a defense mechanism against its,

you know, its inherent sincerity.

It's all corny.

The willingness to accept something that is both non-ironic and

not

presented to be realism

is sort of

an

it can be an uncomfortable thing for people who are used to one or the other, right?

Who are used to bifurcating those two things.

Either you're making dog day afternoon and you're pretending that this is pure realism or you are ironizing it.

And musical theater is musical theater.

It is a way of expressing something that is

deep, not just quote-unquote realistic.

Although it's funny, there has not been a musical of Dog Day Afternoon.

That does seem weird.

Attica,

Attica,

Attica.

That's one of the best works from the director of The Wiz.

Yeah, I don't know, Daniel, what your friend's beef is with the Music Man, because you don't really present her point of view.

Her beef with the music man is she hasn't seen the music man.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

And, you know,

we have settled law in this

podcast that

you can't make people watch something.

You can't make people watch a TV show.

You can't make people watch a movie.

You can't make people.

I guess see the music man per se, but you can offer them the chance.

And I think that.

A question.

Does it say that she loves the musicals past the 90s?

Is that what's the exact wording?

It says she is a passionate Broadway musical fan.

She's a millennial.

And Daniel realized, quote, she only knows musicals from the 90s and later, mostly.

She may be a glee musical theater fan.

Right, yes.

As an elder millennial, I missed the mark.

I was going to say that the passionate musical theater fan makes me think that if she took the time to go see Eliza Eudingaling coming in 2027 at

54 Below, that she'd be like, oh, there's something there.

There's like, wow.

That speaks to me too.

And it probably is just a matter of exposure.

Yeah.

I think Daniel's friend

needs to, as a passionate musical theater fan, needs to get some free tickets or access some of those wonderful, like under-$20,

specially for millennial and Gen X seats,

and

go see Eliza U Dingaling and all of the other versions of old musicals that we're going to do and

put cell phones on.

Yeah, let me just

give a little warning to Daniel here.

Daniel, you're a friend of the show, and I appreciate you.

You write us a letter about your friend.

You impugn her taste and you don't even give her a name.

We don't even know her name.

I mean, I think that the worst, what we, the mistake we should not make is to repeat what Daniel has done, which is to presume that her taste is bad or to make assumptions about her taste.

We don't know.

We don't know what her point of view is.

But I will say that, yeah, like, as you said, Kristen, the history of this art form, as all art forms, is in dialogue with its past.

And it's not an issue of homework to go back and look at this stuff in order to be the right kind of fan.

It's fun.

It's fun to see those connections.

These musicals last for a reason.

They're fun.

They're good.

You'll probably enjoy them.

And if you don't, that's fine too.

But I think, yeah, Kristen's right.

Get some free tickets, get some millennial tickets.

Hey, Daniel.

Why don't you buy her a ticket to the music man, you cheapskate?

You're the older person here.

If you wanted to see the music man, buy two tickets and offer and see.

And if she says yes, then you then she has a chance to enjoy it.

And if not,

I don't know if it's not still on.

Is it not still playing?

Did it close?

The music man?

Yeah, is it still on Broadway?

No, no, I think it closed.

Yeah.

When Hugh Jackman left.

Yeah, there's no one.

It had to have closed because there's no one else who can play the music band.

Once Hugh Jackman is gone, you don't know anyone.

There's not a single person in the world.

Never mind in the world,

in our extended orbit, who could possibly play Henry Hill and the Music Man on board.

Who isn't too busy starring an archer?

I have a thought about Hugh Jackman and the Music Man.

I saw the production.

It's that he's a very good dancer.

Wow.

Just cross him right off the bullseye list.

Right off the bullseye list.

Sorry, Jack.

Yes, The Music Man

concluded its record-breaking, much-loved run on January 15th, 15th, 2023, according to the website.

So, Daniel, you missed your chance to take your Nameless Friend to see the music man.

But I do encourage Nameless Friend to be open-minded about the things that Daniel likes and give him a try.

But you're not ordered to.

Just like what you like.

Here's something from Gabriella.

My friend Ariel and I both love the musical Pippin.

In the climax of the show, Pippin is tempted to end his existential journey by lighting himself on fire in a literal blaze of glory.

But he refuses.

After this, the musical famously has two different endings.

I prefer the original Broadway ending, where Pippin awkwardly stands on a bare stage and says, ta-da.

Ariel prefers the revised ending from 1998, in which Pippin's adopted child sings a reprise of Pippin's opening number.

This suggests the whole show is going to happen again, part of a generational cycle.

Who's right?

Now, Kristen and Bobby, this is a matter of opinion.

You're not having to choose between your friends, Original Pippin and New Pippin, who wrote Original Pippin and New Pippin, respectively, because I'm sure you're all in the Broadway Bowling League together.

Yes, Steven Schwartz is

a friend of ours and a hero.

And it's a really fascinating thing that he went back and changed it.

And that's the amazing thing that as long as we're still alive, we can change these things.

Now, I had not known, I had not seen Pippin since Peter Rosenmeier played Pippin in the high school production at Brookline High School back in the 80s.

I don't remember how it ended.

I didn't know that there are two different endings.

Pippin, for those of you who don't know, is

a pretty fourth wall-breaking musical, right?

About a young man in a sort of fantasy realm

who wants to discover his purpose in life.

And he is aided and tempted and goaded on by Ben Vereen and a bunch of actors.

Is that a matter of time?

In white gloves.

In white gloves.

Right.

Ben Vereen was the 70s version of Wolverine.

That's right.

Yeah.

Instead of claws coming out of his hand, it was Merritt Light cigarettes.

Ben Vereen played the leading player of this traveling theater troupe that would talk directly to the audience and then encourage Pippin to find different ways to...

It was a very me generation kind of musical to a degree.

It's like, who am I and what is my life supposed to be about?

Am I a fighter?

Am I a lover?

Am I a seagull destined to fly to heaven?

Right.

Am I a rabbit in England that foretells the doom of my Warren?

What's going on with me?

Me, me, me, me, me.

Well, he's he's got to find his corner of the sky.

He's got to find his corner of the sky.

Cats fent in the windowsill.

Children fit in the sky.

Children in the snow.

Why do I feel I don't fit in any place I go?

It's a beautiful song.

It's a beautiful song about the most important thing.

What is a white guy going to do for his career?

That's

how is he going to get famous, basically?

How is he going to be famous?

Incredible showstopper in Pippin.

What color is my parachute?

And as he tries all these different things to be famous and meaningful,

he gets more and more disenchanted, right?

And then he meets a woman who has a son, and he feels this temptation to just have a normal life that isn't a huge gesture.

And the lead player says, don't compromise.

You have to go out in a blaze of glory.

Set yourself on fire.

And he says, no, I'm not going to.

And then I know this because I just watched the 1981

production in Canada they filmed for Canadian television with Ben Vereen as the leading player and William Catt, that's right, the greatest American hero as Pippen.

And Ben Vereen gets so mad at him.

It's like,

you want to go for this?

You want to compromise for this?

Have a wife and a child and be a good human being instead of being an incredible actor?

And he's like, yeah, I think I do.

Ben Vereen takes all of the staging away.

He makes everyone take off their costumes.

He takes the backdrop away and leaves William Cat and the woman

and his adopted son alone on stage with all the artifice of theater gone, all the flash and the magic of theater gone.

And the woman says to William Cat, a.k.a.

Pippen, how do you feel?

And he said, trapped.

That's pretty good for a musical comedy, is what he says.

And then he goes, ta-da, black, fade to black.

Wild ending.

i didn't know that they had this other ending i don't think i've ever seen that one that's that's dark it's really dark that was it that's the bob fossey version like that you can understand that coming from the mind of of him right because he directed the original production right the idea i understand is that the the child will then sing

What was the song we were just singing together so beautifully?

Corner of the sky.

Corner of the sky.

So Pippin leaves the stage and then the child sings Corner of the Sky and then Ben Vereen sneaks back in there to start the whole thing all over again.

Get this kid interested.

I'm going to say that's a more interesting and more musical theater

ending.

I think that Steven Schwartz knew what he was doing when he went back in

and said, like, I think, because

here's what I know historically about Pippin.

I know that

he worked on it in, he went to Carnegie Mellon and he was working on this show.

It had a different name, I think,

at the time

with a colleague at Carnegie Mellon.

And then he came to New York and I think Godspell got made.

Godspell got him.

And then he went and started working on Pippin.

But he was still like a very young, maybe 21, 22 years old.

And at some point, at like age 22, he had three shows on Broadway.

Cause it was all, he was also doing the magic show

with

a famous magician as well.

And he had done music for that.

Oh, the magic show.

With Dave, was it David Doug Henning?

Doug Henning.

Doug Henning.

Doug Henning.

Oh.

We are really going on in a 70s deep dive.

And I really.

You really are.

I am, as they say, here for it.

Thank you.

I'm enjoying this very much.

But what I think

without having his biography here, which I read a couple years back, if I remember correctly, working on Pippin, he was a very young, young composer and was working with Fosse.

And Fosse was a very strong,

very lauded and celebrated director with a very strong vision at that moment.

And a

fairly grim point of view of life.

Yes, yes.

He, Fossey, from what I know from the amazing Fosse Verdon miniseries, one of my favorite shows created by Stephen Levinson and Tommy Kale,

is that Fosse had a lot of childhood trauma and a very dark and was a womanizer and really dealing with a lot of stuff, but also a hard, a hard collaborator.

And if you're like 22 years old and you're like, I have this thing, I don't know.

What do you think?

You gotta find my corner of the sky and

bob fosty's like sure kid anyway you were saying yeah yeah no i think i think that we we can assume that the broadway ending was the bob foster ending and that the 1998 ending is the steven schwartz ending

i always err on the side of the writers what did the writers want

It's true that Stephen Schwartz has said that he prefers the newer ending,

the perhaps reconstructed ending that we're theorizing.

I think it's reasonable to theorize that maybe Bob Fosse had cut or dissuaded him because I was just doing a little math in the background.

You're absolutely right.

He was born in 58.

So when Pippin came out in 1972, he was 24.

It's wild.

That's wild.

And that ending, according to Wikipedia, the original closing line was, How do you feel, Pippin?

I feel trapped, but also happy.

That's pretty good for musical comedy.

Ta-da!

So, in that 1981 video for Canadian television that I found, you can find it on YouTube if you want to see it and be really bummed out.

They cut happy.

It's just, I feel trapped.

The end.

Or maybe there is a misprint in the Wikipedia or what have you.

Whoa.

If I had seen what I saw on that video in the theater, as much as I love William Catt and the greatest American hero, I would be very, very, very bummed out.

Especially if it was Canada in the winter time.

I think it was in the heated theater.

They did it on ice.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

The part of Ben Vereen played by Wayne Gretzky.

Yeah.

All of the players are actually literally players of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

It was a weird production for sure.

But I'll tell you what, William Catt looked incredible.

In that, looks incredible with his shirt off.

Just a point.

Anyway.

Did we decide the the case?

Well, it's time to go.

Well, not quite yet.

Although you may be hinting that you would like to be done with this episode, we're not quite done.

Jesse, do we have some more cases?

Yeah, we're going to take a quick break when we come back.

More sawn time.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom London.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from clearing the docket.

We can't plug anything right now that's written by uh members of the writers guild of america because the writers guild are on strike right i am on strike so you know the things that i made for tv and it's up to you they're it's factual they're out there you can watch them if you want but obviously there are some things that i made that are are not covered by the strike such as those books that i wrote vacation land and medallion status you know i just went and signed a copy of uh vacation land for someone at books our magic on smith street and i'm always willing to sign and personalize books if you want to order from books are magic online and just request a personalization, I'll go down and walk down there and I'll sign it for you.

So there's something if you want.

But Jesse, you know, I enjoy a radio program called Bullseye.

It's an interview program on NPR, terrestrial radio, and also wherever you get podcasts.

You're familiar with the show, right, Jesse?

I host the show, John.

That's right.

You do host the show.

You know, it's like, I'm not listening to it for friendship.

I'm listening to it for the incredible, high-quality interviews with incredible creative people.

And

my understanding is that you had

an encounter, an interview,

something even more with Mary Steenburgen.

Is that right?

I did.

I interviewed Mary Steenburgen.

Mary Steenburgen, I am prepared to marry at this time.

Right.

She is happily married to Ted Danson and I to my wife, Teresa, but I'm willing to throw it all away for Mary Steenburgen now.

Maybe the four of you could have an open relationship.

I wouldn't be opposed.

That's on Bullseye this week.

It was a really great conversation.

And

as you alluded to, John, I had a very special interaction with Mary Steenburgen, which is that,

and I'm sorry to say this publicly, but

it's basically the nicest thing anyone ever said to me in my entire life.

So I thought,

you know, people might not have listened to Bullseye, whatever.

But

during the interview with Mary Steenburgen, we were talking about, she studied with Sanford Meisner, one of the greatest acting teachers.

And one of the things that he taught was presence in the moment through various exercises and so forth.

And she gave the example of working in a scene with Robert De Niro, who she called Bob, walking down the street.

And she said, you know, She said something to the effect of she felt she could do anything because Bob De Niro was so present with her walking down the street in that scene.

And I thought it was, what an amazing anecdote.

And after the interview, we had a nice conversation outside the studio and she went and went downstairs.

And then my

producer got a phone call and said, oh, yeah, no, he's still up here.

He's still up here and hung up and said, oh, Mary said she wants to come back up and tell you something.

And I was like, oh, okay.

and

I don't know what it would sure and she came back up a few minutes later came back into our office

and she said you know

working with Jane Fonda inspired me to remember to say these sorts of things out loud

but when I was downstairs waiting for the car I said to my publicist

something that

I wanted to come back and tell you directly, which was that doing that interview was like the experience of acting with Bob De Niro.

Whoa.

And

she said, I just wanted to tell you directly because I didn't want it to be left unsaid since it was...

something I was saying to someone else, I thought I should say it to you.

And it was really wonderful conversation.

She's a wonderful, and it was just such a kind compliment.

And I couldn't, like, I literally,

I

really had to fight to keep from just crying in front of Mary Steen Burger

right then and there.

But anyway, it's great conversation.

And

I don't know if it delivers on that.

a level for for an audience member, but it was a pretty incredible experience for me.

So go listen to Mary Steenburgen on Bullseye.

And I'd just like to say, Jesse, that, you know, I've left left this unsaid too long, that when I record the podcast with you, I feel like I'm in a remake of Meet the Parents.

Let's get back to the docket.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're here with Kristen Anderson Lopez and Bobby Lopez,

Cable Ace Award winners, and we're deciding musical theater questions.

Here's a case from Abraham in Sioux Falls, Falls, South Dakota.

My wife and I attend.

Sorry.

Sorry, guys.

I just looked it up.

Blockbuster Entertainment Awards.

Here's a case from Abraham in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

My wife and I attend a community theater in a small town in South Dakota.

At the end of each performance, the cast members stand in the lobby as the patrons exit.

My wife says it's appropriate to interact with them and give them feedback.

I believe any sort of critique other than thank you or a a compliment should be saved for a different and less public time.

Who is right?

Well, I he is.

All right.

Go ahead, Bobby.

He's totally right.

I would even say he doesn't go far enough.

Like, frankly, I don't, if I was doing community theater in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, I would want.

no feedback other than thank yous or compliments unless I was asking someone whose opinion I wanted to know because I wanted to get better, in which case I would ask.

There's a famous letter.

Jason Robert Brown makes no,

he doesn't try to hide the fact that he had a very famous thing happen, and this involves Stephen Sondheim.

He went to go see Sondheim's show.

He was

another

sort of mentee of Sondheim, and they were friends.

And Sondheim very generously invited him to come see one of the first previews, I think, of Passion.

And

afterwards, they went out to dinner, and Jason Robert Brown

was kind of, was kind of silent, like didn't say anything.

They talked about lots of other things, but Sondheim very quickly got very sullen and was like, I'm leaving.

And then Sondheim wrote Jason a letter saying, saying,

When I invite you as a friend to come to my show, your job is to realize that I am vulnerable.

I am in a place where

I need

my friends to tell me something nice.

The fact that you stonewalled me completely was ungenerous.

And

it was, I, you know, I don't have verbatim what he said, but basically, Jason

writes very, very, very eloquently about how

when an artist puts themselves out there,

unless they are asking for critique,

it is the job of a,

it is our job to clap for them.

And it is our job to

say, you know, wonderful job.

What a great thing you created.

What a wonderful night.

Unless they specifically ask for, like, okay, how can I make this better?

What can I do?

Right.

But I will point out that in the case of the small town theater in south dakota the cast members are literally putting themselves out there yes in the lobby

that's a that's a strange choice that but they're they're not putting themselves out there in the lobby for feedback they're putting themselves out in the lobby to build a relationship with an audience that might come to their shows in the future they're out there to gather adulation from their fellow local dentists Are they?

It doesn't say are they facing the audience as they exit, or are they turned around and bent over?

I have Abraham's full letter that we read in our out-of-town tryout for this episode, and we decided to cut it a little bit.

But

in the full letter, it says, It should be noted the layout of the building is shotgun style, leaving very little room for other patrons to leave if one stayed and chatted with the cast.

So it sounds like they're literally putting themselves in

the way of the audience

in order, I presume,

to enjoy the post-performance feeling and

get some adulation, as Jesse said.

See, I read this in a different way.

I agree, obviously, that if you are going to see any kind of show and you see the actor afterward, particularly if the actor is standing in the lobby or whatever, Even if they're out there going, here I am,

that's not a time for you to go up and go, I have some notes

on this one night only performance that is over now.

I have some notes.

That's only a time for you to say, that was wonderful.

Thank you.

Effusive praise.

That's it.

I get the feeling that Abraham feels not that his wife is being too mean to these actors, but talking to them for too long.

And that maybe he feels a little bit shy and is using this whole geography of the theater things like, it's just causing a traffic jam.

We need to get out of here.

I don't want to, it just makes him feel uncomfortable to talk to the actors.

That's my interpretation of what's going on here.

But I don't know.

That's that's a guess.

That's a guess.

It's making me think about community theater and the intention of community theater, which

these actors aren't paid.

They are doing it for

community.

not only to have community themselves, but to give something to the community.

But it is all on a sort of celebratory, voluntary, like we, we do this because we love it.

You come because you're supporting us and this thing that exists in our community.

And so in general,

it's not the forum for like harsh critique.

But

it's for the contract.

I don't think there's any harsh critique going on at this point.

If there is Abraham's wife, stop it.

I just think that there is a difference.

There's a friction between how much post-show chat Abraham is comfortable with compared to to his wife's.

But, Jesse, you were going to say something.

I would make one exception to the no critiques rule.

And this is something I've thought about a lot.

I wrote

in the days of Tumblr, I wrote a Tumblr about it.

Like when

is it appropriate to offer feedback, and in what forms is it appropriate to offer feedback to creators?

One of them is compliments.

One of them is when they have asked.

And I think a third is, I do think it's appropriate to to offer negative feedback to creators

if there is a, I guess, what you might call a moral issue involved.

So I do think it's appropriate to offer feedback

that there is, you know, say there's a broad racial stereotype in a show.

I think it's appropriate to offer that feedback.

Even that feedback, I think presuming the goodwill of the creators is is generally your best bet, especially if they're, you know, your dentist.

And so for that reason, I might be inclined to at least start by doing it in a more private context.

Yeah, not in the lobby.

Not in the lobby after the show.

And presuming that

your conversation doesn't block the egress of the rest.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Just trying to start a riot in the hallway.

At the same time, I'm imagining Abraham just walking by these people who have been singing and dancing all night and

not making eye contact.

That is in itself

sort of

what Jason Robert Brown was describing.

He did to Sondheim that night

of like, we're not going to talk about this thing.

I just watched two hours of your very hard work and we're not going to talk about it because I don't know what quite to say.

And I'm going to use the fire hazard of your presence in front of the exit to be an excuse

for not saying thank you.

Look, I don't know, Abraham, if you're just shy.

I'm reading a lot into you.

I'm doing sort of the same unfair thing that I felt that we shouldn't do about Daniel's young millennial friend, which is presuming all of your intents and purposes.

If I've misjudged you, I apologize.

I agree with the words that you wrote.

Any comments in the lobby to actors hanging around who are making themselves available should be restricted to compliments and thank yous.

Effusive, if you please.

And I do believe they are out there looking for those compliments.

And you know what?

They deserve it for doing community theater in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

Good for them.

Let's hear it for them.

And then you can move on to your car and go

get your pizza or whatever you're going to do that night.

We opened with Sondime.

We closed with Sondime.

Here's a case from Ariel in Baldwin, New York.

I think there should be a production of Assassins with a bunch of dachshunds running around on stage.

It would fit perfectly with the surreal setting of the show.

And Lee Harvey Oswald had a bunch of dachshunds.

My friend says this is a bad idea because no one would get it.

But, I mean, everybody loves to see dogs on stage.

Isn't this a great idea?

I think we have to turn to the president of the Assassins Fan Club,

Bobby Lopez.

What say you to this concept?

If people don't know, Bobby, if people haven't seen Assassins, don't know the synopsis aren't on their Wikipedia right now.

Explain

what the theme of the show Assassins is and

why Lee Harvey Oswald and Dachshunds would come into it in some way.

Well, Assassins is a musical review, hybrid.

It doesn't have a plot, but it's themed around presidential assassins and

it envisions the beginning.

Anyway, it takes place at like a

carnival where you were invited to step up, shoot a Prez and win a prize.

And it has all the, you know, all the assassins from Booth to Hinkley

singing

accounts of what they did and why they did what they did.

And it's about, it's about a certain underbelly of the American dream.

It's sort of that music man-esque in that sense.

Yeah, yeah.

Booth is sort of the Herald Hill of it.

And

I don't know.

I mean, Dachshunds, how would that really fit?

I'm already working on a lyric, though, that I am unworthy of your love, Wiener Doggy.

Let me be worthy of your love.

We've already established, Bobby,

that you are the preservationist.

You want to keep company trapped in amber.

Yeah.

Whereas Kristen is willing to interpret and reinterpret.

And I don't see.

And what do you think, Kristen?

Do you think these dachshunds should be on stage?

That would be pretty hot, I have to say.

Well, you know what they say about working with animals and and children um

uh

it's not good um

that's the famous saying

um

uh i i think that i'm gonna stand by my original thesis which is if there's something about the wiener dogs that helps everybody um that helps

in that moment, in that time, those people using those words and this music

tell a story that resonates really well with this audience.

And like wiener dogs suddenly become the

spokespeople for gun control, let's say, then those wiener dogs deserve to be up there.

Let's assume that suddenly America gets fully behind gun control because wiener dogs are in the commercials.

Yeah, let's assume that, Kristen.

Let's assume that.

A fair, fair assumption.

We could also, it could also be a

CGI

movie like Cats a little bit, but you use you personify each assassin with a

different Wiener Dog.

There we go.

And James Corden has to be in it because James Corden

is in every

film, musical film that has ever been.

He sings.

He sings on his show, did you not?

He does some singing on the show.

I have seen it.

One day I wanted him to invite us to come sing with him.

Hasn't happened.

No.

I think it's too late.

Maybe if we did a show with wiener dogs called Eliza You Dingaling.

John, I don't know if it says this in the original letter, but would it be different if they were shorter, long hair wiener dogs?

As long as it's historically accurate.

Okay.

That's all I care about.

Fair enough.

What length hair wiener dogs would there have been at Ford's Theater?

I wish I had learned that in my American Musical Theater class at UC Santa Cruz.

What length hair did Lee Harvey Oswald's wiener dogs have?

Did they have long hair ones?

Doesn't that feel like sort of a modern,

it feels like the equivalent of a smartphone?

They engineered wiener dogs to have this long hair.

Gang,

I'm sorry that I was a little absent on this last one for the past few minutes because a couple of things happened.

First of all, the premise of this whole letter is wrong.

Lee Harvey Oswald didn't have dachshunds.

Jack Ruby had 10 dachshunds.

Oh.

Including his beloved dachshund, Sheba, whom he left behind in the car when he went to go kill Lee Harvey Oswald.

So Ariel, I can't rule in your favor as much as I like this idea.

Your history was wrong.

I'm already getting letters.

We haven't even released this episode yet.

Please stop the letters.

I got it.

I fact-checked it.

I apologize.

And then I also got distracted because

I was looking at the Old Town Theater in Sioux Falls, which is...

which is where Abraham doesn't want his wife to say anything to the actors and leave in stony silence.

They have some photos of them from their spring 2021 presentation of Godspell, which are incredible.

These people are amazing and they deserve a lot of praise.

Go thank your actors and your performers politely.

But yeah, no, sorry, no wiener dogs and assassins.

I hope you feel good about that, Bobby.

That I saved the sanctity of your precious show.

Something inside me just relaxed.

Ariel, you have to write a musical about Jack Ruby if you want to see those Dachshunds on stage.

That's another one.

Oh, coming soon to the Old Town Theater in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

Ruby and dogs.

Speaking of thanking our artists and performers, our thanks to Kristen Anderson, Lopez, and Bobby Lopez.

Yeah.

Heroes of the arts, true heroes of the arts, whether or not they have a Blockbuster Entertainment Award.

Spoiler alert, they don't.

Never gotten one.

We don't.

Snubbed every year.

Snubbed every year.

They don't even have an MTV movie award for best kiss.

Yeah.

Oh, but we should work towards that.

We're working towards it every day.

That's right.

But friends and heroes, brilliant geniuses, very kind of you to share your time with us, as always.

Thank you, Kristen and Bobby.

Thank you guys so much for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Anytime.

Thanks for having us again.

Hey, before you go,

do you have any disputes you want me to settle between you two?

I've thought about it and

I think it's too

I don't come out looking good on this one.

So no, I don't want to.

What is it?

What is the dispute?

Oh, I

tend to always insist on driving.

Yeah.

In our family.

Do you do a good job?

I'm really good.

I'm a really good driver.

And

That's the narrative.

And Bobby's a really good, really good navigator.

Like,

he understands technology in such a better way.

He's able to create cues on the playlist.

I wouldn't even know how to do cues when we play DJ.

He's able to

handle like, oh, let's Google Maps over here and let's whaze it over here.

Like he's, he's really good.

Do you ever let him drive?

Very, very rarely.

Only

if I've made bad choices at a party or after dinner

when I'm in the car.

She lets me drive our daughters, which makes me think somewhere inside she trusts my driving.

She just can't

not be the driver.

Yes.

I don't come off looking good here.

I recognize it.

No, I think you probably do a great job.

Sorry, Bobby.

Yes.

Love it.

If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, maximumfund.org slash JJHO is where to submit it.

Look, send us the case.

You don't have to decide whether it's a good case or a bad case.

You can just be like Kristen did, and you can just show the courage to share your case,

and you'll probably win.

So go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO and share your case, big or small.

We judge them all.

Fortune favors the litigious.

If you bring the case, there's an automatic bias in your favor on my part, I have to say, and I won't recuse myself.

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