Live from Port Townsend, WA

Welcome to Judge John Hodgman.

This week's episode was recorded live at the Wheeler Theater in Port Townsend, Washington.

It was our first stop on our frontier justice tour of the West.

It was full of surprises.

And boy, oh boy, was it a treat to finally meet Mayor David, the person responsible for getting us to Port Townsend, Washington.

We had a great time.

So without further ado, let's go to the stage at the, what do you call it again, Jesse?

The Wheeler Theater?

The Wheeler Theater.

Wheeler Theater in Port Townsend, Washington.

Let's go.

Why not?

Port Townsend, Washington.

You've come to us desperate for justice.

And here we are at the Wheeler Theater to deliver it.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Amy and Toby

Tonight's case, Burden of Hoof.

Amy brings the case against her husband, Toby.

Amy and Toby became accidental farmers when they moved back to the island where Toby grew up and bought a home that came with a tractor.

Now that their kids are nearly grown, they want to spend more time sailing, but the farm is too much work.

Amy wants to build lodging to hire help.

Toby says it's not that simple.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Hello there.

I am surrounded by hundreds, probably thousands of killer bees.

If I weren't wearing this suit, I would be dead in an instant.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Amy and Toby, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

You bet.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that something about the controversial raccoon lodge?

I'm so excited.

I don't even know anything about it.

Yes.

Sure.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Amy and Toby, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment and one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I apparently direct quoted as I entered this courtroom here in Port Townsend, Washington.

Amy, why don't you go first?

This is not what I expected.

What did you expect?

You didn't expect to be

part of a live podcast recording?

No,

I was expecting maybe a little Lyle Lovett.

if I had a bunch of it.

A little Lyle Lovett.

You mean like a short quote from Lyle Lovett or a tiny version of Lyle Lovett?

Oh, I'd take either.

Because I don't know how, I didn't think you could make Lyle Lovett more adorable.

Right?

So it seems like him being kind of tall and wiry is the key to his appeal, but a little tiny one?

That would be terrific.

You know the song he sings about, if I had a boat?

If I had a boat.

Yeah.

Because that figures into your head.

Well, because it has a pony, too, on the boat.

He has a pony on the boat.

Yeah.

Okay.

Now I see why that would be good, knowing what I know about your case.

Right.

Well, let's just put it down and we'll just, I'll just write it down here as a possibility.

I'm not saying whether you're right or wrong, but I'm writing it down for you now.

Yeah, no, no, that's not my choice.

Toby, what is your guess?

It's a stretch.

I'm I'm midway through the memoir written by Madeline Albright called Madam Secretary and Toby.

You're absolutely right.

That's incredible.

She does have a target.

That's incredible.

That's from Boutros Boutros Gollies memoir.

Let's go back to the

raccoon follies.

I am surrounded by hundreds, probably thousands of killer bees.

If I wasn't wearing wearing this suit, I would be dead in an instant.

My name is Madeline Albright.

Enjoy my memoir.

It's the introduction.

It's plausible.

You gotta grab them right up top.

Madeline knows that.

I want to know how Madeline Albright got into this situation.

What a record scratch.

She's an extraordinary person.

So is Lyle Levitt.

True enough.

This is not a referendum on whether Madeline Albright is an extraordinary person.

Irrespective of how we feel about her policies, we can agree that she is extraordinary.

I don't...

Does she do some does she do some beekeeping in the no,

it was a reference to the raccoon follies, which was a little-known dispute in the Yugoslavia border between, you know.

This is why nothing is done.

What's Toby doing?

I know there's some children in the audience, so I apologize.

What the hellfire is Toby doing right now?

Are you spinning a gag?

It's a delay tactic, so they don't have to get to the court.

All guesses are wrong, I'm afraid.

So we'll have to hear this case.

Who seeks justice in this court?

I do.

Amy, what is the justice that you seek?

We need help.

And we need help.

So we.

That's not what I'm here for.

I'm here to tell one of you you're wrong.

That might be helpful.

Was it you two, first of all, that I ran into while walking through the compound today?

Yes.

I should recuse myself.

Did she try to pass you a $100 bill or something?

Nope, just a jar of jam.

Fair enough.

We did receive a case of jam.

The perfect thing to get on the first show of your tour.

That's right.

Just think of what you're going to get in Portland.

You drink one of those jars of jam every day on the way.

I brought my extra jam carry-on.

Yeah.

The best thing to give people who are on a tour is

large jars of liquids.

Can we have something delicate, bulky, and illegal to take on a plane?

Anyway, at the merch booth after the show, we'll be giving out jam.

We sell them for $8 a jar.

Wow.

I'll sell them for three.

I'll put them at the foot of the stage.

I'm sure they're delicious.

I want to hear all about the jam.

What is the help that you need?

We, so we're accidental farmers.

We did not mean to do this.

I'm going to say that as though, oh, by the way, I forgot to say what the piece of culture was.

Here we go.

All guesses are wrong.

That actually is a direct quote, apparently, from the movie, We Bought a Zoo.

I hope that's true.

I looked it up on the internet.

It's not a a movie that I've seen.

But according to my brief here, much in the same way that some people just buy zoos, you accidentally became a farmer or farmers, as the case may be.

Tell me about the help that you need.

We need

some person,

people,

to start helping us on the farm on a regular basis so that we can start to transition

away from farming all the the time,

every day,

and spend a little bit more time on our forever boat that we just acquired.

Or you just acquired a boat.

That's why you wanted the cultural reference to be about a boat with a pony on it.

Yes.

You want to combine your two worlds of land and sea.

Kind of.

Do you have livestock on the farm?

Yes.

What kind of livestock?

A pony?

No.

What?

We have sheep.

Okay.

How many sheep do you have?

I knew he was going to eat You're not good farmers.

38.

Too many.

You got to count them.

You got to count them.

You can't just fall asleep.

You've got to finish counting them.

They used to all have names, but

I mean, I know this is Port Townsend.

You can't just go to sleep.

There is a question that I have that we have to answer first.

How did you become accidental farmers?

It's his fault.

Toby, it's your fault.

What happened?

I grew up on Vashon Island, and my folks still live there, and we were interested in moving back.

It's an island here in the Puget Sound of Washington State.

And we had been looking at property or houses to purchase and move our family.

And

my fifth grade teacher and middle school librarian, who are married couples, were at the point of their life where they needed to, where they elected to move into a assisted living.

And their little farm, and it was a small farm at the time was offered to us on Vashon Island.

On Vashon and it was just a perfect spot and so we bought it and fired up the tractor and next thing we knew we were surrounded with sheep and chickens and ducks and berries and orchards and a lot of work.

Like you did you have the tractor

magic tractor.

We just

you just you just turned on the tractor and all these animals rushed out of the woods and said you have to care for us.

It kind of feels that way honestly.

I mean we do we we do enjoy farming.

It's been super fulfilling And we've actually made some of these decisions

coherently along the way, but now we find ourselves

underwater.

And

how long have you had this farm?

13 years.

13 years of farming.

And

you said sheep, and what else did you say rushed out of the woods to you?

Chickens.

We actually did have a rooster that rushed out of the woods and adopted us.

Really?

His name's Sparky.

Is this a real island?

Yeah.

Okay.

uh and it's not a fantasy island because those exist

those exist they're real i believe in them what else what do you do on the farm what do you what do you do with the sheep what do you do with the chickens obviously you you get you gave us a whole bunch of jam that we can't use so you make that you must have an orchard yes tell me about what do you got what do you tell me about your crops we have a little over 100 trees in the orchard uh and then we raise berries we have raspberries luganberries cascade berries we've dabbled in black raspberries.

In our effort to scale things down, we built a greenhouse and started growing tomatoes and cucumbers.

And we thought it was a great idea to grow loofah sponges last year.

It almost worked.

Those don't live under the ocean.

No.

Well, yeah, maybe we should clarify this.

How do you grow a loofah?

How do you grow a loofah?

It's a Chinese vegetable that actually looks like a zucchini, but in theory, you let it grow until it's fully mature, and then all that's left is the cytoskeleton sort of thing.

Can I ask you a question?

How many other household products are actually Chinese vegetables?

I just feel like I'm learning a lot about farming right now.

You'd be very surprised.

Safety razors.

Lint rollers.

Vitamixes.

Vitamixes.

It's actually kind of a gourd, actually.

Did you you know that?

You almost grew aloof, which sounds like a great title for your book.

Got an introduction by Madeline Albright in there.

Maybe you can give up this farm.

It's a lot of work.

And how do you make money on the farm?

Is this, I mean, is this a livelihood or is this all hobby farming?

So we have day jobs.

Okay, what are your day jobs?

I'm a middle school science teacher.

Terrific.

Oh, okay.

Oh,

all right.

Interesting.

Congratulations.

Wonderful.

And what do you do for a living, sir?

I'm an, besides being an accidental farmer, a technology,

in technology for public transit systems.

Okay.

And also on the school board.

You make the little thing you pull to go, ding, I want to get off.

I help support the technology to allow people to pay with Apple Pay, for example, when they get on a train or a bus.

Oh, fantastic.

And all the systems that make that happen.

Right.

Most of the time.

Are you originally Chinese vegetables, I believe.

Are you both also graphic designers and librarians?

I guess it's a little on the nose for Dutch John Hodge and listeners here.

We live next door to a graphic designer, and we bought our house from a librarian.

Well, there you go.

That all sounds, I mean,

those are both real jobs.

I mean, particularly teaching middle school is.

all-consuming emotionally and and well it takes up a lot of time farming is also i thought a full-time job.

Is it or is it not?

You can squeeze it in.

All right.

People ask us, how do you have all this time to farm?

And we don't watch a lot of sports.

I guess that's really the answer.

That is the answer to that.

It seems to clear up like 10 to 15 hours a week.

I happen to watch a lot of sports, and my farm is dope.

I know exactly how many sheep I have.

Yeah, it's a grow-up.

Technically, it's a grow-up.

So, what do you sell, and how do you sell it?

We,

in an effort to work less, we started a farm stand.

Sure.

In an effort to work less.

How so?

We put the things in the farm stand and people come and help themselves.

But what were you doing with all these boys and berries and Washington state berries and cougoo berries and

dirt berries?

What was happening before the farm stand?

At one time we tried a CSA.

where we literally drove boxes of beautifully prepared vegetables and

fruit to people's houses and then set it on their porch because they were out playing on their sailboats.

And they'd come home late at night and it would all be wilted and sad.

That was not great.

Gotcha.

So you were making people come to you.

That was how you were saving time and effort at that point.

Okay.

And is the farm stand successful?

Yeah, I'd say it is.

Well, it became successful monetarily, which is, you know, the scale of things were, we made like $5,000 in the farm stand.

Amy's bread that she makes and the jam are big sellers and decent margin.

And eggs and berries sell well.

Everything else is a huge money loser.

But we were, I mean, we have been raising lamb for a number of years and we raise it for meat.

And we were really, really lucky that from the time we started keeping sheep, we had a local abattoir on the island who would come and harvest for us.

But they moved to Oklahoma, I think.

East of the Rockies.

Yeah.

So we don't have anyone to harvest, but that was another, so we sold lamb too.

You told that story with

admirable use of euphemism.

As an omnivore, I appreciate that.

In any case,

do you want to sell the farm because you're having trouble making ends meet or you want to go to sea?

You have a boat.

Tell me about buying this boat.

Well, when we met and

fell in love,

he was living on a sailboat.

Let the record reflect

that

Amy made a

gesture.

Sort of shrugged her shoulders like, I guess, you know, fell in love.

What would be the word here?

Yeah, I mean, you have to understand that in agrarian societies, love does not necessarily factor into marriages.

If you've accidentally bought a farm off your former fifth-grade teacher,

you're not looking for someone to have romance with.

You're looking for someone who can haul in the goo-ooberries.

That's right.

But then she finds a boat to buy.

And this is a boating community, Port Townsend, isn't it?

It is on the ocean.

There are a lot of wooden boats made here.

I mean, they really do call it the main of the Pacific Northwest.

In fact, when we were driving here this morning, we thought, when was the last time we were here in a car?

It's been 20 years that we've become frequently on the boat.

Oh, right, from Vashon Island, right, on a ferry boat, not on a boat.

No, it's a sailboat.

You sailed over here?

Not today.

Well, why not?

I wouldn't mind a cruise tomorrow morning,

enjoying some sensitively harvested lamb.

Merges sausage.

We could eat all that jam.

We could have a great time.

You could sail us down to Seattle.

That's where we're going tomorrow.

How long would that take?

Depending on the current and the wind, it could take.

Oh, well, now you're going to get technical.

Eight to 12 hours?

Eight to twelve hours.

It's perfect.

Let's leave now.

You have a sailboat, not a power boat.

Correct.

Tell me about this boat and how did it come into your life?

Because in my experience, you don't go out looking to buy a boat because you don't want disaster in your life.

It happens to you.

A boat shows up at your door

or

you accidentally drop something in the yard and all of a sudden it rushes out to you

from the woods.

And then it says, give me all your money.

And I was like, you're only a 14-foot rowboat.

And it's like, sorry.

It sounds like you're describing right now.

You move to Maine.

It happens.

You have to rebuild it every year.

Stupid wooden boat.

And it might not have even been made by Jimmy Steele.

Yeah, that's what we found out.

If you read Vacation Land, you'd know this boat was supposedly made by a local craftsman, and now I'm being told it's made by some other guy.

Anyway,

boats are fun.

How did this one come into your life?

Is there a reason you don't want to answer this question?

Because I've asked it four times, and it's followed by a deep sigh every time.

And I understand it because...

Answering the question means you have to acknowledge to strangers that not only do you harvest lambs, but you bought a boat.

Two things it's hard to brag about.

But stipulated, it's part of this case.

So, where is the boat from?

When did you get it?

And how did it happen?

Amy, stop avoiding the question.

Don't wait for the translation.

Answer the question.

In my defense, I'm from Chicago.

All right.

Okay.

So.

They have fake oceans there.

You're not going to tell me it's landlocked.

Answer the question, Amy.

We bought the boat because we thought that we would live on it.

Okay.

You think you're the first person to think about that?

That's what everyone who ever looks at a boat thinks about.

Why do you think there are houseboats?

I think I haven't slept in my rowboat.

What are you ashamed of?

I'm not ashamed of it.

I mean, like, I love it.

I would say

it's more your love.

I mean,

you're the captain.

What are you taking me to court for?

Wow.

Well, I mean, look, look,

I mean, I think, you know, people who, spouses who own boats together have real trouble.

And it has a lot to do with the fact that there can only be a captain in the boat.

And it's really hard to acknowledge that.

We've sailed all over the Pacific, or west coast of the Pacific and Puget Sound and up into Canada, and we're excellent teammates on the crew.

Terrific.

The sailboat, I was living on a sailboat when we first met, and we continued to race boats for years.

And when we had kids, we decided to live on land and accidentally got the farm, which was super fulfilling in terms of expressing our family values and what was important to us and what we wanted our kids to learn as they got older.

And now they're one's in college, one's almost in college, and we want to get back to sailing.

You want to sail away and never see them again.

Some days.

I understand.

You're going through a big life transition.

Judge Hajman, I had a friend when I was in middle school whose dad lived on a boat.

Yeah.

And my friend didn't have to brush his teeth as long as he used a toothpick.

It's true.

It's a little something called boat values.

I'm going to ask you.

Suck your lime, boy.

I'm going to ask you one more time.

Just this is a simple question.

What is the name of the boat?

Odinata.

No, I really want to know the answer.

It's Latin for dragonfly.

For dragonfly.

That's lovely.

And how long have you had it?

Why are you looking at each other like this is a you murdered someone?

100% a murder is in here somewhere.

Our podcast just got so much more popular.

You didn't know this is going to be a

true kind story?

Yeah.

How long?

Look, we have a lot of shows.

Two and a half years.

Two and a half years.

Why was that so hard?

You know, I don't know.

Well, okay.

Are you still ambivalent about the dragonfly?

That's what I'm going to call it.

No, no, no, no, no, no, not at all.

No, if anything, we had hoped to take our kids sailing when they were a lot younger, but the farm happened.

Right.

And so we've been

just keep we've been landlocked for a long time and now you know our son is at college our daughter commutes off island every day for school she's going to be going to college soon we we just are at that point where i'm a little afraid by the time we get everything dialed in we're we're going to be too old to use our boat and

we're kind of are you done with the farm is that what you're trying to tell me you're done with the farm you're done with land you want to go to sea

i know make let the record show toby is crossing his fingers fingers.

We can't be done yet.

Why?

A curse?

The curse of the harvested lamb.

Why will you hear the silence of the lands?

What is it?

What's the time frame?

Okay, so we're legally obligated to farm.

What is happening in Washington State?

We love our rules.

So, so we

20 years ago, we met a tiny man named Rumble Stillskin.

All right.

You are legally obligated to farm.

Explain.

Unless we sell it.

So we've sold farm preservation easements to our local government

in...

the county where we reside.

And

the stipulation is that it is a farm and it really should be farmed.

And so we're expected to produce and sell some things from the farm.

In order to live there?

Well, in order to get a discount on our property taxes.

Okay.

These are real things.

Have you seen the property taxes?

I know around here.

What's that?

The property taxes around here are.

I understand.

I understand.

So in other words, the farm has to be productive.

Or else you're going to, it's just not going to be feasible for you to continue because of the tax burden.

But the other thing is, we want, like, the farm is really dope, and we want it to keep going.

Yeah.

But you need to.

I mean, that might be your answer right there.

The problem is, it's not dope enough.

You need to drop these Uchi Wally berries.

Yeah, because

there's a kinder way to harvest

certain things, if you know what I mean.

Drugs.

Sorry, kids.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

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So what do you want to do with the farm?

You want to continue to make it productive,

but also get out on the boat and leave your children behind.

And really want to sort of help kind of, I guess,

have

people apprentice on our farm, which is common in other places.

So, it's called woofing.

Of course, it is.

Yeah.

Woofing

is apprenticing on a farm.

Yeah, willing workers on organic farms.

Willing workers on

organic farms.

Organic farms.

Okay.

It's a hippie thing for hippies.

But the problem is we live on this little island and you have to house these woofers and we don't have a place to house the woofers.

So we need a place to house the woofers.

And what do you propose?

A wolf house?

Yeah.

So, okay, here comes, this is a crack.

So

we need to spend some money to build.

A wolf house.

A woofer.

A woofing house.

A woofery.

A woofery.

Uh-huh.

Okay.

And you don't want to do that, Toby.

I don't dispute that we need help.

And I think that in a world of magic money, having a tiny home or a place to house farm workers would be fabulous and useful.

I don't necessarily think it's the top priority.

So with limited time and money,

I don't want to.

You don't want to build the woofery.

That's all I'm asking.

You don't want to spend the money to do it.

You don't want to have woofery.

It sounds great.

I'm not sure we can stretch enough to you crossed your fingers when I asked Amy if she just wanted to give up the farm.

You want to just give up the farm.

I've loved the farm and it is precious to us.

It's a ton of work and I'd like

that you are under the impression that the farm has feelings.

Many days I am.

And I understand why you feel that way.

In fact.

I think that,

I mean, I know that Amy and I both have mutual objectives to find a way to reduce the amount of work and time and energy that we're spending on the farm so that we can do other things that we love to do together.

I think the core.

Sorry, kids.

Like, come to the show.

But the core dispute is

what do we do next?

It's very overwhelming thinking about all the things that you could do that might be helpful.

What is the alternative that you suggest?

I think that in an ideal state,

we'd pare down the flock of sheep.

We would reduce the size of the garden.

And by doing that, we would...

How would you pare down the flock of sheep?

Oh, I know.

Send them on vacation in France.

Exactly.

Send them to auction.

Load them onto the boat and take them to Oklahoma.

You would reduce

your flock of sheep.

Yeah, and pare down the amount of garden that we manage because that's very summer intensive.

How would you pare it down?

That's a great question.

Yeah.

I don't know.

And then moving the sheep that's a great question, but I don't think building a tiny house solves that problem.

You want to build it and you want to build a tiny house, and you're going to stack these woofies inside this tiny little shed as an opportunity so they can continue to produce on the farm.

So we basically have everything that needs to go into this woofery in the garage taking up space.

You're talking about the materials to make a house.

The couch, the stove,

the mini stars.

Furniture.

I was talking about two befores.

You're talking about furniture.

Oh, but like all of that, we have an extra refrigerator.

None of us enjoy talking about money or boats.

How much is this house going to cost?

Here I have, wait.

So

it's a cascade of purchases, and I'd like to amend it a little bit.

Look, local references

are how I pander to the audience.

A cascade.

I got it.

Tell me more.

Okay.

So being a teacher and being a scientist, I like to look at the end, like what we're going for and plan backwards.

So in preparation for tonight, which was fantastic, it got me thinking.

We're glad you're here.

This is exciting.

So me too.

We're going on a boat tomorrow.

It's going to be so fun.

So, I actually did some research, and we could build a barn first.

You're telling me your farm doesn't have a barn already?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Gonna build a barn.

Then I recommend start with a manger.

If there's no room at the end, start with a manger.

We have two mangers.

We'll come around and bring you some golden myrrh, and then you can buy a bunch of people.

We have two mangers, and where the sheep and the chickens cohabit.

That's where the woofery needs to be.

So first we need to build a barn.

And the big thing is I've been asking for this barn for many years.

I mean, you have to admit that.

But it's like we like...

Asking who, Santa?

So.

Toby's the friendly connector on the island.

He knows everybody.

He grew up on the island, and he's always helping everybody else, which is wonderful.

I love that, and I really appreciate that.

And it's time for him to start calling in some favors

to get things,

to you know, to pour some concrete and have a barn raising, Harrison Ford and Witness style.

Literally, we helped somebody else with a barn raising.

And now they're sailing

today.

Right now.

Right now.

They are in the middle of the Atlantic right now, and he helped to build their barn.

So your contention is that Toby could make a few phone calls and you would have a wooery in a day or whatever.

But Toby, you refuse to do it.

Why?

This is a,

I don't refuse to do it, but we started a few minutes ago talking about how important a tiny home was, and now we're talking about building a barn.

And what I really need to do is a cascade of events.

It is absolutely a bad thing.

Not totally, it's a cascade of events.

Toby, you have to build a barn to reduce your workload.

See how.

Right.

Bingo.

The cost is.

Toby, the cost is irrelevant.

Everything is cheaper on an island.

Right?

Totally.

You've put your finger on it, though, right?

So in this cascade of events, all of a sudden we're investing time and money to get us to the point where it actually is uh an easier job that allows us to to spend more time elsewhere what is your time frame let's just say that toby was into your scheme amy what's your time frame for the cascade of events when would you see that

the benefit of the farm and the woofery and the woofies and the reduced like is this a five-year plan a four-year plan a two-year plan a one-year plan two years at the max.

Is that okay?

Two years at the max.

Putting off your dream, your mutual dream.

Well, I think also

I totally understand that it's antithetical to spend more money on something that we both agree eventually we would like to sell.

But I think that we're to this point where...

People do that all the time.

And we do need to get it to a point where it's kind of a turnkey operation that someone could continue this work.

And right now, it's sort of,

you know, look, right now the business model is you make the stuff, you put it out for people to enjoy it, you only ask them afterwards for money if they want to.

This business model is insane.

You brought some evidence, some photographic evidence.

Yes, you guys and I have both made $5,000.

You brought some photographic evidence.

Let's take a look at that now.

Can we see the first slide, please?

Oh, look at this.

Oh, well, this is beautiful.

This isn't the nightmare that you portray it to be.

So, this is this beautiful, even without a local abattoir.

We'd have fewer sheep if the abattoir is still around.

So, these are two photos side by side, one of which is our rustic crates of beautiful orchard fruits.

That's our farm stand.

I imagine that was your farm stand.

I didn't think that this photo of a bunch of sheep next to a tree was your farm stand, madam.

They're right next to the farm stand.

That is like people love it.

They come up they visit the farm stand they you know take some fruit or some bread and they just sit and like hang out and visit with the sheep yeah

do you enjoy farming this is fun for you there's aspects of it that are fun

and occasionally i resent it

well i don't think most farmers think that farming is a whole bunch of fun We don't mind, I mean, I

it's really hard work, and I don't mind working hard, but it's it's tiresome after a while.

What's the next photograph that you sent us?

Oh,

there you are in your sailboat.

Look, you got gasps even from a Port Townsend audience, and they know they're boats.

That's pretty, yeah.

Let the record reflect that Toby is wearing his ancestral garb, which is seven layers of Patagonia.

No, that's me.

That's me.

Oh, wow.

That's the beautiful boat.

Dragonfly in Latin.

How many can sleep on that boat?

Six comfortably.

Oh, okay.

So you have room for your children, too.

Why don't you sell the farm and live on the boat?

That was the

original plan was to.

Yeah, we heard that.

The question is.

Why don't we do that?

Honestly,

we would like to maybe not live on the boat permanently, but we'd like to get the farm to a state where it really could be sold and continue to be farmed.

And then we can spend more time in the boat, maybe have a smaller place that doesn't require so much work on land also.

We have teenagers.

So?

They don't want to live on the boat.

Yeah, they do.

They don't have to brush their teeth.

I mean,

I'm not suggesting that you realistically would live the rest of your lives exclusively on the boat.

But what Toby suggests is that you sell the farm,

downsize to a property that you don't have to have livestock on or worrying about abattoir access.

But presumably then you would get to spend a lot of time in your boat and not have to

find podcasts to offload jam to all the time.

Why is that not a good plan?

Why make all this investment just now instead of just

doing that?

We have aging parents and we have, you know, our youngest is about to start college.

So it just feels like we're not quite there.

So it's the really, and I don't, I don't sit still.

So this is the time that we should be building the barn and then making the woofery.

And then, when they're launched, then we can also go sailing.

And then, but would you sell the farm at that point?

Like the records show that Amy is staring at Toby.

I don't know.

And Toby is giving the universal gesture for, go ahead and tell him.

I mean, the answer isn't yes, obviously.

If it's not yes, it's a no.

I mean, we're caring for.

Do you want to hold on to the farm?

No.

You.

You have impulses that are against each other.

What's the

it's a dialectic inside of you.

Ah, yeah.

You want to hold on to it at all costs, but you don't want to keep it.

No, I want some of the things that you can do.

You want to sell it, but never.

I mean, I understand.

I'm not.

This isn't going well for me.

Well, it may be going extremely well, Amy, because I don't know what you want.

You might get it.

If I were to find in your favor, what would you like me to rule?

I get a barn.

And that would then cascade?

Yeah, that's the cascade.

You want it all, a barn, a woofery, and some woofs.

Yeah.

And then decide about selling the farm later.

Indeterminate period of time later.

Well, ideally, we would find woofers that would want to stay, which happens.

And then they would eventually want to take over the farm.

It's hard.

I mean, it's really hard work, but you love it.

And

I just can't walk away from it.

I mean, we've put a lot, we've put so much into it.

Toby, if I were to rule in your favor, how would you want me to rule?

Like I said before, Amy and I have mutual end goals, and we're in this lockstep together, no problem.

And I don't dispute that we need help.

For me,

what would be great assistance is for us to have a clear plan on priorities and what we can tackle first.

And as evidence tonight,

let the record reflect that Amy made the universal face for, oh, come on.

However, preparing for tonight and thinking more deeply about this in the last few days,

even that process has helped me identify what do I like about the farm, what do I not like about the farm, what takes the most work, What are some ways that we could implement

some help without having to spend tons of money?

I haven't quite cracked the code, but

it's not a barn and a woofery and woofers.

If we had

enough money, a barn would be darn helpful.

You could sell a boat, get a barn.

You're right.

You know what?

Sell the boat and the farm.

Get yourself a zoo.

I mean, they have a whole balloon hangar on this compound.

You could start making zeppelins.

You're already doing two of the wildest possible things.

You know, you're crazy when you see a Zeppelin house like that and think, wow, that would be a great barn.

It's large enough we could have woofers stay there too.

But you don't want the barn.

and the woofery.

I mean, what am I going to rule here?

If I rule that she gets the cascade of outbuildings, then that's it.

Do you want me to rule against her?

My request is simple, which is a.

I don't think it is.

If it were, if it were, we'd be done 15 minutes ago.

I covered everything I need to in order to make a decision.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Amy, how do you feel about your chances here tonight?

I don't know.

I think think it's a toss-up.

I really want to.

Toby, I'm not even, I'm not going to follow up.

Toby, how are you feeling?

I'm thinking that we could have used this time wisely and recruited more help from the audience.

No, I'm actually feeling optimistic simply because thinking more deeply about this as a couple, we've already started to line up ideas that may help us get to a priority list.

And then I can make a lot of phone calls.

Let me ask you guys this: you got the farm, you got the boat, you got the teenagers.

Have you thought about getting two full-time jobs?

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and delivers his verdict.

You may be seated.

You may be seated, please.

While I was in my chambers, I took the opportunity of collecting one of the many jars of

jam that were donated to the podcast by your farm, Holmstead, that's H-O-L-M-E-S-T-E-A-D Farms, which is your farm on Vashon Island.

I'm trying to help you out here.

Give you the big Judge John Hodgman bump.

The one that put Brooklyn in on the map.

It looks lovely.

Would you open this for me, please?

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

And I'm just going to

smells delicious.

Smells delicious.

I'm just going to try some of this jam right now with my fingers.

There we go.

Really?

That's really good.

That's really good.

Jesse, you should try some.

The record show, Jesse's.

It's got a nice...

Thank you.

This is the lid.

Got a nice picture of a lamb on it here.

Jesse, and it says 2022 harvest.

Well, wait a minute.

Raspberry harvest.

I understand.

It's not lamb jam?

Get that sell in Portland.

You know what I mean?

It's delicious.

You're doing good work on the farm.

I understand why it is hard to decide.

You are doing three of the most irrational things people can do.

One, in the 21st century, especially.

One, own a farm, a working farm, and work that farm.

Two, somehow obtain a boat sometime in the past, who knows?

A beautiful sailing boat with berthing for six.

And three, you're a middle school teacher.

And that's right, you should applaud her.

That's incredible.

Teachers are the real heroes, in my opinion.

Now,

the solution to me is very clear.

You're a middle school teacher.

You're in a perfect position to sell a farm, just like Toby's fifth grade teacher

scammed him

into buying this albatross.

So you.

How long have you been a teacher?

I started teaching in 1999.

Right.

So surely you have an adult former student that you can con into buying this land.

I have a former student who is one of my parapros in class.

It's great.

Yeah.

Get them to buy it off of you.

But you're not doing it.

And I understand why all of this is hard and has been met.

My questions have often been met with uncomfortable silence, which we have to edit out of the podcast.

But,

you know,

you're at a point in your life that I'm and my partner is at, we're at too, where our children are disappearing before our eyes.

They're becoming

their own adults.

One of them already is.

And it's hard.

And what comes next?

And dreams of

dreams of floating away on your dragonfly boat to the land of Honolly or whatever you're going to do

are very attractive, and yet you want to hold on to that land that you've given so much to, even though your kids probably like, let's get out of here.

I'm so glad not to be harvesting sheep anymore and

life.

We say it's character building.

Sure.

You also seem to be under, and I understand why it is that you act as though this farm has feelings, Toby.

You know, it's like people, people personify their houses.

People personify their boats, obviously.

You talk about your boat with, you know, the pronoun she, you know, but that's a thing.

It's a thing that can go away like that.

It doesn't have feelings.

It can sink at any moment.

In fact, someone could be sinking it right now.

I know.

I hate to, and it might solve your problem.

Wink to the audience.

You guys can't make a decision because it's so challenging to make a decision.

Maybe the decision could be made for you.

Wink to the audience.

This is a picture of the boat.

I don't think the solution is for someone in the audience to go and find your boat and set it on fire.

Good.

Okay, please don't do that.

Wink to the audience.

No, no, sorry, bad wink.

That wasn't a wink threat.

That's their dream.

That's their dream.

And the challenging thing that you have to do is get to that dream.

Amy, you mentioned that this is not a good time.

It's actually a great time for you to make these changes because all the changes are happening right now.

Like you're young, you're healthy, you're able-bodied.

You said you have parents who need care, but you don't have to be at sea all the time.

Your kids are moving on.

Everything's changing.

This is actually as good a time as any, let's put it that way, for you to take a deep breath and realizing that farming is not part of our lives anymore.

It's time to make a significant change and trick someone that I taught when they were young

into taking this and all these sheep off our hands.

It's called lifelong learning.

Tell them it builds character.

And so you're coming up with all these schemes to hang on to the thing by building a barn and a woof house and get woofers in, all of which are it's a really good plan for maintaining the continuity of this farm and sending it into the world with the same preparation and care that you sent your children out into the world.

If Toby were out here saying to me, I really believe that the time has come to sell this farm and get on that boat and downsize, and I think it should happen this year, then I would probably find in his favor because I think that that's an emotionally healthy thing to do, as hard as it might be.

But guess what, Amy?

Toby isn't saying that.

I asked Toby, do you want to sell the farm?

And he's crossing his fingers.

Get her to say, sell the farm.

Toby doesn't want to come out and say, yeah, I want to sell the farm.

So, Toby, you're out of luck.

You got to hang on to this farm.

I mean, honestly, I feel like

it's been hard to figure out because you guys because you both have real difficulty deciding what it is you want to do.

And so it's obviously very hard for me.

So I can only go, if I have to rule, and you have come to me to make this ruling,

I can only go with the most cohesive plan there is.

And I think that's improve the property such that,

well, wait a minute.

Yeah, you can celebrate.

You got it.

Improve the property.

such that it can be passed on and will be more attractive to someone who might buy it from you.

And also you will know you gave it your best shot and it's ready to pass along, and then get out of there within a two to, I mean, honestly, two to 25 years

period.

But it's, but it's, and, and that means, and that, and, you know,

your punishment for your ambivalence is that this is going to happen.

You know, if you had said to me, I just don't feel like this is right for us, I think it's time, blah, blah, blah.

But, you know,

you got to get out there and you got to call in those favors.

You got to, you got to, You got to go all around the island and say,

we're getting this farm ready to sell and it's going to take a little while because people, that's what people do.

They do improve their properties and get them to sell.

As long as there's private property, which is a sin, by the way.

Just put it there.

As is taxation.

I'm working both sides of the aisle.

I know you had a libertarian newspaper or something that was published here.

As long as we live in this reality right now, I have to rule in Amy's favor.

You got to build that wolf house.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Amy and Toby, thanks for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hi, I'm Amber Nash, the voice of Pam Poovy on the groundbreaking FX animated comedy Archer.

Remember Archer?

I sure don't.

That's why I started rephrasing an Archer rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org.

Join me and a bevy of special guests as we discuss every episode of Archer starting from the very beginning.

Archer executive producer Casey Willis and editor Christian Danley will provide insight and fun and help me remember everything I've forgotten about Archer, which is a lot.

So, join me on rephrasing an Archer Rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org because I can't wait to watch Archer again for the very first time.

The wizards answer eight by eight.

The Conclaves call to demonstrate their arcane gift, their single spell.

They number 64

until

a conflagration

sixty-three

and sixty-two they soon shall be, as one by one the wizards die,

till one remains to reign on high.

Join us for Taz Royale, an oops all-wizards battle royale season of the adventure zone every other Thursday on maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from the Wheeler Theater.

Let's talk about what we've got going on.

What's going on with you?

Well, Jesse, it is early February.

It's not too soon to mark your calendar for next month, March 24th, which is the premiere of all eight episodes of Up Here.

That's the musical comedy, romantic comedy that is created by our friends, Bobby Lopez and Kristen Anderson Lopez, along with Thomas Kahle and Stephen Levinson.

Tommy, of course, director of Hamilton and the Brandon Sweeney Todd production on Broadway.

Stephen Levinson, of course, wrote the book for Dear Evan Hansen and also

wrote the screenplay for Tick Tick Boom.

I mean, this is like a Broadway Voltron.

They've created one of the funnest, liveliest, heartfelt, true rom-coms of the 90s, because it is set in 1999, brought it forward to now.

It stars Mae Whitman and Carlos Valdez, and they're so wonderful in it.

And Katie Finnerin plays May's mom.

And guess who plays her dad?

Me.

I was going to say Richard Kind, but you're good too.

I think he wasn't available.

Instead, it's me.

And I sing some songs, parts of songs, and I do exactly one twirl on the sidewalks of New York.

And if you're a fan of Judge John Hodgman, I think you will enjoy Up Here.

I really, really encourage you to check it out and tell your friends about it.

Up here premieres March 24th on your Hulu, where you get all of your other best and favoritist shows like Dick Town, for example.

Also, speaking of Dick Town, co-creator of Dick Town, that cartoon that we put on Hulu that everyone enjoys, his name is David Reese, and he co-hosts a podcast called Election Profit Makers with his old friend from Chapel Hill, North Carolina, John Kimball.

It's a really wonderful podcast.

Check it out.

If you happen to be in Gainesville on March 7th, you should go to Satchel's Pizza and check out their first in many years live event.

Election Profit Makers are coming live to Satchel's Pizza in Gainesville, Florida, February 7th.

If you've never listened to the show before, you're going to have a great time figuring it all out.

If you have listened to the show before, you know what a big deal this is.

EPM meets Satchel

March the 7th.

Get there as soon as you can.

Well, at least by March the 7th.

What do you got going on, Jesse?

Well, you know that I host the arts and culture interview show Bullseye for National Public Radio.

Well, for maximumfund.org, as distributed by National Public Radio.

I do know.

I know very well.

We have just had some really cool episodes lately that I have not mentioned here that I think our listeners might want to go check out.

We had a great conversation with Kate Beaton about her just breathtaking graphic novel or graphic memoir Ducks.

We had a great conversation with Kumale Nanjiani recently.

A great convo with John Larriquet,

who's, you know, talk about, talk about courtroom heroes.

And I just, I did not mention this when it happened.

I should have mentioned it immediately upon it happening.

But yes, I had to have an hour-long interview with Tom Hanks in there.

The best of the best of the best.

Kate Beaton, Kamale, John Larraquette, Tom Hanks, boom, boom, boom.

It's hit after hit after hit on Bullseye.

If you're not listening to Bullseye, I don't know what to tell you.

Why do you think I exist here on this podcast?

It's because I met Jesse Thorne, because I listened to him interview people on the show that became Bullseye, and I realized this guy's got the best conversation game in the game.

Go over there and listen to all these good ones on Bullseye and just tune it in every week for heaven's sake.

MaximumFun.org, Bullseye.

Take a chance on somebody you haven't heard of.

Mavi is incredible.

That's that's recent, too.

Yeah.

Well, I mean,

I can't tell you the names of the people that I discovered because I listened to Bullseye and you interviewing them.

And I can't tell you that because I'm friends with them now and it would be weird.

The point is, Bullseye is great, and you should go listen to it.

Bullseye, maximumfund.org.

Let's get back to the stage in Port Townsend, Washington.

Please welcome Brittany and Chris to the stage.

Welcome, Brittany and Chris.

Please be seated.

You consider yourselves pre-sworn in.

Brittany and Chris, who comes seeking justice before me in this fake court of law?

I do.

And that would be Brittany.

That's correct.

And what is the justice you seek?

So the justice I seek, Chris and I disagree on who came up with the name for our corgi.

I love corgi cases.

What is the name of the school dog?

Her name is Frodo.

Frodo?

That's pretty good.

Yeah.

I'm glad I came up with the name.

I think I came up with the name, Brittany.

I did.

Thanks for asking.

What?

I hear around Port Townsend that Chris came up with the name.

Chris, what is your side of this?

I believe...

that I came up with the name

six months before we even drove out to Idaho to pick her up.

And

I am so

into the idea that I picked her a name.

I usually fold on most arguments, but this is the one.

Here you take your stand.

I stand for four years.

To be fair, if you're both Judge John Hodgman listeners, you both fold on most arguments.

There's a cultural type.

Why,

what evidence do you have to suggest that you came up with the name and not Brittany?

She would always try to come up with names.

She wanted the corgi.

She wanted specifically a corgi.

Her heart was corgi-shaped.

Sure.

That's why you drove to Idaho or whatever in one day.

And of course,

we on the podcast always

encourage people to adopt rescue pets without concern for their particular breed.

But I also appreciate as a life partner of someone who is obsessed with a particular kind of dog, corgis, Sometimes the heart likes what it likes.

And at the end of the day, if you're going to get a potato dog, you got to do it in Idaho.

Sometimes the heart wants a chunk.

So where were we?

Yeah.

She wanted the dog.

You said, only if I can name it, and I name it Frodo.

So she would call it.

And I wrote this down and I mailed it to myself.

Here is the evidence, sir.

Courtroom gasps.

I'm sorry, Brittany, this seems pretty cut and dry.

So she really wanted to name the corgi food items.

Like,

biscuit, biscuit, hambone, nugget.

Hambone came up.

Hambone is the best name for all dogs.

So, Brittany, biscuit was one of the names.

What are some of the other names that you were thinking of?

So some of the other names I'd come up for a female dog at the time were whiskey, bourbon, cider.

A whiskey drink is a night drink.

It's food.

Slow gin, drinking alcohol.

So these were the names that I'd come up with for female dogs because I had already decided on the name I wanted for a male dog, which was Frodo.

Okay.

Yes.

So I already knew male dog, it's going to be Frodo.

So that's why Chris remembers correctly that I came up with all these other names, but it was for a female dog if the time came when we drove to get our little potato and our potato turned out to be female.

So Frodo is a boy dog, obviously, because you named it Frodo.

No, Frodo is a female dog.

Courtroom gas.

Things aren't so cut and dry after all.

So when the time came, around a week or so before we went to go pick up our little spud, they sent us photos of either a male or a female.

I wanted to get the male because I wanted to name the corgi Frodo, but Chris always grew up with female dogs, so we decided to...

go with the female dog but because

really hadn't decided on another female dog name decided what the heck it's a fantasy name why can't we name our female dog

did you say that or did Chris say that

probably

me

when did you even ever suggest Frodo for the name of this dog ever

six months before we went to go pick her up

It came up in conversation when we were spitballing names and I defended the name for Frodo regardless if it was for a female or a male dog.

But who came up with the name?

I'll tell you who.

J.R.R.

Tolkien.

Trying to rip off the estate?

Real quick, who came up with the name first?

Real answer.

Don't wait for the translation.

Who came up with the name?

Who first said Frodo?

Who first said it?

Me.

Do you disagree?

Yes.

This is a matter of...

what they call fact.

Who suggested the name Frodo for either gender of the dog?

This is where we, this is the fundamental disagreement.

Great.

We are out of time, so let's hear it.

What's the fundamental disagreement?

I believe I came up and introduced the name Frodo for Quirky first.

What argument do you have, Chris, that this is false?

Why is Brittany lying?

Because I feel like I came up with the name.

It's a feeling.

The heart wants,

John.

I believe you sent in some evidence, which I presume is just an adorable photo of Frodo the dog.

Probably.

In the style of family feud, show me Frodo.

Look at this dumb dog.

I love it.

I love her.

Give me the dog.

I'll take the dog.

My dog's dead.

Give me the dog.

Obviously, these photos will be available on our showpage at maximumfund.org as well as on our Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

They're wonderful Frodos of Frodo.

You're right.

You're right.

Jesse, pack up.

We're going to Seattle right now.

Sorry.

Sorry.

And

one of them, Frodo, seems to be turning to the camera saying,

Chris named me Frodo?

I don't think so.

J.R.

Tolkien named me Frodo.

Sorry, Chris,

you didn't present any evidence.

Why is it important to you that you have named this dog?

Do you got to control everything in the relationship or what?

So I can reserve naming rights for the next Corgi.

If you wanted to reserve naming rights for the next Corgi, and by the way, I approve of getting to.

Then you would be giving this up to Brittany now saying, well, you named Frodo Frodo, so I get to name this one what?

Samuels.

A blonde corgi.

Chris.

Chris, it's pronounced Tambone.

I find in Brittany's favor, although, Brittany, he does have naming rights on the next Corgi, and I think you see what's coming down the road for you now, and I feel very sorry for you.

For the rogueless ever ever on, I find in Brittany's favor.

Please welcome to the stage Lindsay.

Lindsay.

Lindsay.

And whom, Jesse?

Lindsay and who?

It just says here, Lindsay.

It just says, Lindsay.

All right, let's find out what's going on here, Lindsay.

We'll get Lindsay up to the stage here.

Lindsay, I guess you may be seated wherever you like.

Thank you.

Normally, we have people come up with a dispute hand, someone that they have a dispute with, but who is that in your case?

The mayor.

Let the record show I dropped my gavel.

Port Townsend, 2 p.m.

on Tuesdays.

No, actually, it would be every day.

Port Townsend, every day, 3 p.m.

on CBS.

It was highly offensive.

No one should sue me.

What is going on?

What is your discussion?

His mother was murdered by a soap opera.

So, to be fair, I would have sued you even if you weren't the mayor.

So

no.

What is your dispute with Mayor Faber?

My request is simple.

I am seeking an injunction that Mayor Faber be prevented from seeking anyone outside of a licensed esthetician to shave his back.

Wow.

We are learning a lot about

old, cold-handed, cold-feet, hairy back mayor favorite.

Swiftly turning from the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast to the David Cronenberg body horror hour.

Okay.

Ah, who is this person, Mayor, and what's going on?

This is my friend Lindsay.

We went to law school together.

I see.

And we traveled internationally to study abroad in Croatia in 2010.

And before we left, well, first of all, I'm a very hairy man.

I don't necessarily look like it, but...

No, yeah, I wouldn't have...

Yeah, okay.

I'm wearing like one of those medieval hair shirts, but just it's permanently attached to my body.

And

before we left,

My long-suffering wife shaved my back, but the problem with shaving is it starts to grow back out.

And we were there for a little little bit.

Really fast.

Were you asked to shave this man's back?

I was, yes.

Mayor Faber.

Where were you traveling again, Lindsay?

We went to Croatia.

Are you telling me that there are no men's back salons in all of Croatia?

They're hairy people, so there should be.

There probably was.

Yes, I find in your favor, Lindsay.

Thank you.

Please welcome to the stage Sam.

Now, I can't help but notice, Judge Odgman, I only listed one name again.

Sam was what you said?

Sam.

All right, let's go.

Let's get Sam up here so we can do this case.

Here comes Sam.

Sam, you may be seated wherever you like.

All right, thank you.

Sam, you also have appeared without

a disputant to either your left or your right.

Who is your dispute with?

I am also suing my mayor.

Whoa.

Mano, I mean, at this point, it's not even a gasp of surprise.

It's more of a sigh of resignation.

I'm not suggesting you resign, mayor.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

At this point, we should be charging $20 for charity like a junk booth at a carnival.

I'm sorry you're being put through the ringer.

You were so nice to bring us here and keep us captive in this state park.

That's not true.

Sam, what is the nature of your beef with the mayor?

I would like a declaratory judgment that...

Does it have to do anything with his body?

No.

Okay, good.

No, he has to refrain.

I would like a declaratory judgment that the song Last Christmas by Wham is not a good song and enjoining him from playing it at any future holiday time

social engagements.

Wow.

Order, order!

Audience, shut your pie holes.

Obviously, this is community divided.

This is the raccoon lodge.

of 1980s Christmas hits.

If I may ask the audience, by sound of applause, who likes the song Last Christmas by Wham?

That's enough.

If I may ask by sound of applause, who dislikes it?

Okay, hold on.

Hold on.

Thank you very much.

Hold on, by round of applause, who saw Paul Feig's movie last last Christmas and was really impressed by Amelia Clark from Game of Thrones, who was super funny and charming in it, like real lighthearted and

not at all like a dragon queen type thing.

She was great in that movie.

I was hoping the audience would decide, but I have

incredibly sensitive ears, and that was an exact 50-50

breakdown.

Sam,

tell me why I should ban this song.

You don't like it?

So a

number of reasons.

Number one,

it's not a good Christmas song because it only mentions...

How do you mean it says last Christmas?

And that's

the very next day, Boxing Day.

In England, you gave it away.

So that's the only reference to anything Christmas.

I don't remember the rest.

Well, none of the other lyrics contain any reference to Christmas or wintertime holiday cheer or anything.

You could replace it.

So it's not a suitable Christmas song.

Not a suitable Christmas song.

What's another reason?

The music is insipid and boring, which is not in character for a wham jam.

You're saying.

Last minute saved.

It's going to smirch the name of George Michael, but you saved it at the last second.

It does not unintended.

We'll be selling wham jam after the show.

Homestead Farms, Wham Jam.

Guess what?

I solved your problem.

I just bought half a zoo.

Farm, I mean.

That was unintended, and I didn't mean to point at the jam.

No, it's great.

East Hampton.

There are no hooks.

It's not catchy.

Is there a bridge?

I don't even remember if there's a bridge.

I think there's a bridge, but it's just more of the synth music that sounds like it's playing in a mall in the 1980s.

I see.

And the third reason?

And the third reason.

You're saying it's not, it does, it's not Christmassy enough.

It's not

a good song.

The lyrics are not Christmassy enough.

Musically, it's not a good song.

And I guess lyrically, as a Christmas song, it's not a good song.

It's two reasons.

It's a double entendre.

Does he play it a lot?

I know that's not a double entendre.

It's like.

Now I realize now everything is.

You should talk to David about sandwiches sometime.

No.

Maybe later.

It says you are David's law partner?

I am.

Does he play this at holiday parties at the law office?

Not at the office.

No, at his house.

Why do you care what song he likes?

So it's not that I don't want him to not like it.

I don't mind this, but we have, it's very common if there's a song that I'm hearing frequently, maybe it'll be at his house, maybe it won't be at his house, and I don't don't particularly care for it, and I express that.

If he likes it,

he will immediately jump on it and say, oh, this is great.

No, I really like it.

Wham is one of the, not, not all of their catalogue.

They're really.

I'll allow him to defend the song.

Why do you like Last Christmas by Wham so much?

Is that a Wham song or a George Michael song?

It's Wham.

Is this?

All right.

Thank you, audience.

One very confident audience member.

Appreciate that.

So why do I like it?

I think it is.

Do you like it because he hates it?

Yes, no, no, not at all.

I think it's,

I completely disagree with Sam's points.

I think it's a structurally very good song.

It has multiple hooks, both the

main keyboard melody and then with

the bass moving around that melody.

I think it works really well.

It's very complex in its structure.

All right.

It's a rich text, Judge Hodgman.

That's how they managed to make an entire feature film out of it.

The movie was adapted from the song.

Literally.

How do you get the movie?

I did go to Yale University,

an accredited four-year college in Southern Connecticut, where I did study literary theory.

And while that mostly trained me for textual analysis, in many ways, all songs are texts.

So maybe I need to decide whether or not this is a good song or not.

Why don't we listen to it?

I'll be taking some notes.

Last Christmas.

Last Christmas, I gave you my heart, but the very next day.

He's got a point about how complicated the bass line is.

It goes...

It goes...

I said the bass line plays around with the melody and makes it it complicated together.

Maybe you have very, very good headphones.

Here's what I wanted to happen.

Let's just say he has very kind headphones.

Here's what I wanted to happen.

David, Mr.

Mayor, if I may.

Please.

We are your guests.

We would not be here without your encouragement.

Frequent.

Insistent.

Perhaps constant.

It has been such a delight to be here in the town that you serve as mayor,

to meet many of your colleagues and family members,

as well as the citizens of this town on stage and in the audience, and to be here at the Wheeler Theater at the lovely Fort Warden State Park, which is not a cult compound, but a beautiful resource for the entire community with a balloon hanger that I hope we can come back to and play again sometime when it's warmer out.

It's been wonderful to meet the folks here at Centrum who put on all the programming here.

And if you're listening to this at home, please check out what they're doing here in Port Townsend at the Wheeler Theater and all throughout the compound.

It's an incredible

arts resource for the entire community.

I think it's great.

I have long, and I'm on the record, hated this song.

I don't hate wham.

I love their jams.

People in my life that I live with and have known for many years love this song.

I don't.

I was hoping that if I listened to it again, especially with your analysis, so that I knew what to listen for,

the clever interplay of the bass with your

repetitive synthe meow meows, that

you know, maybe I would hear it again somehow.

Do you know, like,

you know,

when the big documentary about the Beatles came out, and all those songs that you'd heard so many times, suddenly they broke them down and you heard them in a different way.

That didn't happen tonight.

I'm sorry to say.

I don't know what you want me to rule, that it's a bad song?

Yes, and enjoying him from playing it at social events.

Oh, I'll never do that.

He's the mayor.

Sorry.

Get lost.

I find in the mayor's favor.

Thank you to Sam.

Thank you to Mayor David Faber.

Thank you for having us here.

That's it for this week's episode.

Thanks to all the litigants who joined us on stage at the Wheeler Theater in Port Townsend.

Our special thanks to Mayor David Faber for bringing us to Port Townsend and all the good folks in Port Townsend who welcomed us so graciously and made our trip possible.

And packed the house.

I mean, packed the house with the swiftness.

It sold out instantly.

We had super fans emailing us saying, I live in Port Townsend and I didn't get tickets in time.

Who knew?

Who knew indeed?

Well, we'll be back to Port Townsend, of course, and hope to meet you out there on the road many a time.

Do you think next time we'll play that Zeppelin hanger that they have?

Yeah, I think we've got a big enough audience in Port Townsend now to play that Zeppelin hanger.

You're absolutely right.

Evidence and photos from the show are on our Instagram account at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there.

That could be our Burning Man.

It's just us doing our gentle podcast in a Zeppelin hangar in Port Townsend, Washington.

Yeah, but I want to get that guy who used to write for The Simpsons, who plays the fiery Sousaphone, who goes to Burning Man every year, too.

I want him too.

Oh, wow.

Maybe we should just try and get Bill Oakley, who does the fast food reviews on Instagram.

That seems more realistic.

Join the conversation about this week's episode on the Maximum Fund subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com.

Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode was recorded by Matthew Barnhart.

Thank you, Matthew, and produced by Valerie Moffat, Richard Roby, and Jennifer Marmer.

Thank you, Val, Richard, and Jen.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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