Acting in Bat Faith

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, acting in bat faith, Elise brings the case against her wife, Aaron.

Erin wants to install a bat box in their yard to help manage mosquitoes.

Elise is opposed.

She's concerned about becoming the neighborhood's weird bat people.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

When Sheriff Emmett Kimsey and Dr.

Sheila Casper enter the mineshaft and fall down into the cavern full of guano, they light a flare.

The flame would have caused the fumes to ignite.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Elise and Aaron, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

Yes, I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that while not the Batman, he probably is a Batman?

Yes, of course.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I'm not any of the bats men or women.

I am merely a silent sentinel for justice in my city.

of Park Slope, which is to say I do a podcast.

I'm doing my part.

In any case, for an immediate summary judgment, first of all, Aaron, Elise, please be seated.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of viewers' favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I quoted directly from as I entered this courtroom?

Elise, let's start with you.

I have no idea.

Do your best.

I'm going to guess one of the Batman movies.

One of the Batsmen.

Yeah, the Guano one.

Yeah.

Which one of them?

That's the Robert Pattinson one.

They should have cut some of the guano stuff because that movie was like three hours long.

It was like 90 minutes of that was guano.

It was wading through guano.

It's an important resource and a fertilizer.

They wanted to get back to the roots of the

character.

As Aaron may know, guano is

an important resource and fertilizer in this world.

Okay, so it's the Batman starring Robert Pattinson special guano edition.

Got it.

Put it in the book.

Aaron, what is your guess?

I think it's one of the Indiana Jones movies.

One of the Indiana Jones.

All right,

I'm going to give you

all a hint.

I'm not quoting from a movie.

I'm quoting from a website that identifies errors in movies.

Errors of logic, errors of plot, errors of guanoflammability.

So if either of you guessed the movie correctly, I'll give it to you.

So far, all guesses are wrong.

Want to take another shot at it, at least?

There was this one movie that's like called Bats.

I'm stealing one of Aaron's guesses, but it's like there's genetically engineered bats that the sheriff in the town

has to control and some scientist.

That's that's as obscure as it's going to get.

That's all I've got.

You just googled bats.

Are you talking about the 1999 film starring Lou Diamond Phillips and Dina Meyer?

I think so, yes.

Interesting guess.

What about you, Aaron?

What's your guess?

I already told you Indiana Jones is wrong.

There are no big guano scenes in Indiana Jones, unless there's one in the new one that's coming out.

Indiana Jones and the Secret of the Retirement Community.

Man, you took my bats.

Oh, here's the idea.

Are you both guessing bats?

The 1999 film?

Yes.

All guesses are right then.

And no one wins.

Wow.

You are both correct.

You're both extremely good guessers.

Obviously, Lou Diamond Phillips stands.

Thank you.

But because you're both correct, we're going to go ahead and hear the case.

By the way, I was thinking of this movie Bats because it was mentioned, I've never seen it, but it was mentioned recently on the Flop House podcast by our friend Dan McCoy.

The Flop House is a great podcast, part of the Maximum Fun Network.

Hey, if you haven't checked out a new Maximum Fun podcast this week, why don't you go do that right now?

We'll wait for you.

Okay, you're back?

Good.

So let's hear the case.

Who comes to seek justice in the court of fake law?

I do, Judge.

Elise, what is the nature of the justice you seek?

Well, the thing is is that my wife Erin wants to build a bat box somewhere in our backyard.

We have just recently moved to a new house in Long Beach, and

I am against building this bat box for a few concerns.

And if you want me to tell you about them now, I can, or we can wait.

You know what?

Let's just skip it.

No,

I want to hear about all the concerns.

Well, first of all, to clarify, a bat box

is not a box that you keep a bat in.

It is like a bird house, but for bats, and I guess more boxy.

Do I understand that correctly?

That's correct.

And the bat box would not be inside your house.

It would be where, Aaron?

It would be in the yard.

In the yard.

Probably on a pole or something.

Probably on a bat pole.

The traditional place for a bat box is in the bathroom of a dilapidated house in Kansas.

You're referring to D.

Fleeter House, our famous episode about the dueling bat brothers.

But in this case, Erin, you want to keep a bat box and a bat pole in your backyard.

Correct.

Now, Elise, you have concerns.

What are your concerns?

Well, number one, I am a pediatrician.

So one of my main concerns is if we house all these bats in our backyard, you know, we have neighbors and there's a potential that a wayward bat can get into somebody's house.

And the problem with that is if somebody's sleeping and they wake up with a bat in their house, house, their little bites or scratches are so small that it's considered a rabies exposure, even if they don't necessarily see like a lesion on their skin.

So I worry about the welfare of our neighbors.

And also, I don't want to be a creepy bat person in the neighborhood that just houses all the bats in their backyard.

What does being a creepy bat person mean to you aside from having a bat box?

How do you think the neighbors would perceive you?

Eventually, the neighbors are going to catch on.

They're going to be like, whoa, there's a lot more bats in our neighborhood lately.

And at dusk, they're going to see the bats rising from our yard and they're going to catch on.

They're going to see that bat box on a pole and they'll be like, it's them.

They're inviting the bats.

How nearby, how much of a yard do you got?

We got a little yard.

We got a little patch of grass with

somewhere where we can park our car.

We have a nice deck, a small yard.

A little patch of grass in Long Beach.

Can there be a greater dream than that?

No.

Yeah, there can.

A little patch of grass in Long Beach plus a bunch of bats.

Tell me about your bat dream, Erin.

Why do you want this bat box so bat bad?

So the mosquitoes in Long Beach are really

excessive.

We had a beautiful yard all last summer and we would be like, yes, let's go eat dinner in the yard.

And we'd last like five minutes before we started getting bit by mosquitoes.

And we were like, okay, let's just go back inside.

So it's pretty sad to have our nice patch of grass and not even be able to use it.

Talk about disease vectors, mosquitoes too, by the way.

Dr.

Elise?

Yes, you're absolutely right.

And I do acknowledge that mosquitoes do carry diseases such as Zika, West Nile virus.

These are all

illnesses of concern.

So I do acknowledge that.

Yes.

Bats are going to eat them all up.

Munch, munch, munch.

That's true, but...

Then your neighbors are going to be like, thank you, bat ladies.

Thank you.

I mean, they can light a citronella candle or use bug spray.

I still like the idea of you being the dynamic duo of mosquito killing in Long Beach, but I will take your concerns seriously.

Let's get to where this started.

Erin, when did you first get the idea to get a bat box and what prompted it?

And how long have you been thinking about it?

So I've been learning a lot about permaculture and like natural remedies for things.

And then when the mosquitoes got really bad, of course, I was like looking up like what eats mosquitoes because,

you know, you want to get something natural.

And then bats came up and bats are really cute.

I mean, if you look at the pictures, you know, I don't know.

I wouldn't mind having them around.

I know you sent in some evidence.

We're going to take a look at that in a moment.

But before we do, I'm a dummy when it comes to permaculture.

What is it?

So it's all about kind of

working with like natural ways that things work together.

So you're trying to like turn things that would be a nuisance into like a resource.

So for example, bats you know they are kind of a nuisance if you don't need them but if you have lots of bugs for them to eat then they're super helpful how often have bats been a nuisance in your lives either of you um i mean we've been living in long beach about eight nine months and i could tell you the entire summer last summer they were a nuisance bats were pretty bad oh mosquitoes oh yeah no mosquitoes are pests but i'm just curious i mean at least you paint this horrifying picture of rabid bats gone loose in Long Beach.

Is this a, do you have bats there?

I don't know.

Not really.

We haven't really seen them flying around.

Have you, Erin?

I don't think I've seen any at our house.

Definitely in LA, we've seen some.

But I mean, the thing is that they're like flying around at night.

They're not like,

we're not going to see them that often.

Hmm.

Interesting.

Aaron, can you explain exactly what a bat box is and how it works?

So a bat box is sort of like a birdhouse where it's just like wood and kind of flat.

And inside, there's a rod for the bats to hang from.

So, they

a bat rod.

And please use that for terminology.

It doesn't do anything to attract the bats, but once they find it, then they can live there and

you know have their families and stuff.

And is there storage in there for their bat ropes and their bat oranges and their

bat shark repellent?

Bat shark repellent.

Yeah, it comes with a three-car bat garage.

That's the Long Beach dream.

And what is involved in having a bat box?

Have you done some research, Erin?

Yeah, so essentially you put up the box.

They're like birdhouses, but they're like kind of a different shape and they have like a

place inside where the bats can like hang from like a rod or something.

A bat rod.

A bat rod, yeah.

And

you basically just put it up there and you wait and then see if they move in.

Apparently it can take like a year or two for them to like decide to live there.

But then once they do, they just like move in kind of like a birdhouse.

And would you collect the guano as it dropped from the bat box?

I mean, I guess if it like fell on some like wood chips or something, but I'm not going to be going out of my way to like.

I don't know.

I'll clean it, but I'm not trying to like collect bat poop as like a hobby.

Only if it fell on some wood chips.

Yeah.

I mean, if you, if it fell on some wood wood chips, you could just put it in the content file, you know.

Bat guano on wood chips.

How could I resist?

Of course, I'd want to collect that.

That's the nachos of permaculture.

But guano is good for gardening, isn't it?

I'm looking it up.

Bat guano fertilizer.

So the second thing that comes up after bat guano is bat guano coffee.

Don't like that.

I'm going to say no to that.

Yeah, bat guano is a suitable fertilizer for plants and lawns, making them healthy and green.

The internet just told me that.

You should maybe consider collecting that bat guano.

Would that gross you out?

Elise, what if I added bat box?

Yes, also bat tray for bat guano.

It would be a little gross.

And honestly, I'm not, I'm, I am surprised that Erin's not super into it.

I thought that she would want to collect the bat poop.

Erin, why does your wife think that what you're secretly into is bat poop?

I mean, she knows that I'm very into gardening.

Yeah, I mean, I guess so.

Just it seems good for the garden.

I agree.

Especially if it's on wood chips.

I mean, maybe you didn't marry a true bat person after all, at least.

We'll find out.

Erin, where do you get the best bat box?

Because now I'm kind of into the idea.

Well, apparently there's a batbnb.com

for the bat sharing economy.

Yeah.

Yeah, they just rent it and, you know, you host them.

No, they sell bat boxes, and I'm going to tell you something.

These bat boxes look nicer than even the ones that are on the mass.gov website.

These are some

handsome.

You have the Cascade, the Sonora, the Merrimack, the Arroyo.

Do they have any Queen Anne bat boxes that would go in my house?

No, but Jesse Thorne, for your birthday, I'm going to get you the Triple Crown

dual chamber.

Holy moly.

Oh, they were on Shark Tank.

The Bat Box Boys.

All right.

Wish I had known.

Aaron, you did send in some evidence, and I'm going to take a look at it.

These are some photos that will be available on our Instagram page at judgejohnhodgman on Instagram.

Also on our show page at maximumfund.org.

Exhibit A example of a bat box.

Also, you noted that this comes from Wikicommons.

Thank you.

It is for fair use.

And I'm looking at, well, describe it for me if you will, Aaron.

You love this thing so much.

You tell me about it.

Yeah.

So it's like, it's a box, but but it's kind of thin.

So the bats can go up inside of it and then hang

in there.

And

it's, it's kind of flat.

So you can like hang it on the side of a building if you have something tall enough.

Yes.

And then it's kind of inconspicuous.

My small amount of research into this suggests that a bat box would be sort of flattish like this, because bats like to smush themselves up into places.

They don't want a big roomy bat cave, something that can house a giant penny and a Tyrannosaurus Rex model or anything.

They want a smushy, smushy, uppy, narrow bat box thing.

Get all bat cozy in there.

And you mentioned you want to put it on a bat pole.

Is that correct, Erin?

Yes.

And did you make that up or did you learn that somewhere?

Well, you can't put it in a tree because I guess they're like afraid of squirrels and stuff.

And I don't know.

I don't think we want to put it on our house because I'm not trying to get bats in the house.

No.

And our house is not that tall.

So I think a pole is going to have to be the way to do it.

Yeah,

I've, do you have an existing bat pole or would you need to build a bat pole?

We'd have to build a bat pole.

Yeah, based on my small amount of research, it's got to be about 20 feet up.

Bat box is good about 20 feet up.

And you don't want it necessarily right up against your house because you don't want the bats coming in the house getting stuck in there.

And then exhibit B, you have a photo here of what you, the caption says, the most common bat in L.A., the Mexican free-tailed bat.

Jesse Thorne, you ever see a lot of these bats around?

I've never seen a bat in Los Angeles in my life.

I've seen a bobcat.

I saw an owl one time.

I saw that famous mountain lion one time at the Science Museum.

There's a picture of him.

He 22.

R.I.P.

You ever see, you must see all kinds of hawks and falcons, condors.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, sure.

With the claws.

There's lots of parrots.

Yeah.

Not a lot of bats.

Maybe because you don't have any bat boxes up.

That's true.

I'll tell you what, this is a cute-looking bat.

Do you disagree, Elise?

No, they're very cute.

I just don't want to house them in my yard.

Then you have a photo of a couple of non-bats, some dogs.

Who are these dogs, Erin?

So these are our dogs.

Brooklyn kind of looks like a bat.

And then Kaya does not.

She just looks like a dog.

Yeah, Brooklyn's got big old bat ears that are stretching out.

And then Kaya is like, guess what?

I don't have beers at all.

Just kidding.

I'm hiding them.

Yeah, she's the scarediest pit bull you'll ever meet.

Did you have to like make the dog look like the bat?

It just looks like you just had a picture of a bat up and then the dog came up and made a bat face.

It kind of came up that way one night.

Yes, that was a random picture we had.

How do they feel about bats?

They don't care, do they?

They honestly, if there was a bat like crawling on the ground, they would probably go after it.

I have some evidence that I would like to share with all of you as well.

And I'm going to have to share my screen to do it.

It's a short video that comes from the Instagram account that belongs to the Luby Bat Conservancy in Gainesville, Florida.

And here I go, sharing.

Now, Jesse, can you see this thing?

Yeah.

Oh.

Oh,

he's bashful.

This is a Malayan fox bat.

It's the largest bat in the world with a wingspan of up to five feet.

And this is filmed upside down because this bat is hanging from the bat roof.

Jesse, can you share this video with Elise and Aaron?

Yeah, but I'm going to need you to share the sound with me because the first top comment on this is, OMG, I am obsessed with these cute little noises.

Heart, eyes, heart, eyes, heart, eyes.

This is obviously,

this is an audio podcast.

I do have shared sound.

I guess I had to unmute it.

Here we go.

I'm sharing it again.

Erin Elise, are you ready for this?

Ready.

All right.

Here we go.

So cute.

It's just a little whimper.

I can see Valerie Moffat is covering her face in over cuteness.

Yep.

John, I'd just like to let the record show that the bat did a very big yawn.

Yeah.

This is a video of a bat yawning, then covering its face with its wing.

Remember when he yawned and then he put his wing over his face like 20 more minutes, mom.

I'm just trying to establish at least whether you find bats to be disgusting or whether you find the idea of having bats around your house to be offensive.

There's nothing intrinsic to bats.

You have no phobia.

You have no revulsion.

You have no repulsion.

If you had a chance, you'd take that cute yawning dog bat and put it in your house, wouldn't you?

I would.

I mean, yes, if we had the right safety measures in place, yes.

You think that that Malayan fox bat also has the rabies?

He might.

So let's talk about rabies.

Obviously, rabies is no fun to get.

It's no fun to have.

It happens.

How common is it for a human to get rabies from a bat in Long Beach or in the United States or wherever?

It's very rare.

It's not very common.

I did briefly look at statistics and as far as rabies deaths, bats, I think, in the United States are the leading cause.

Rabies' deaths in the United States,

the leading cause is bat transmission.

I believe so, yes.

Because of their little claws carrying little bits of rabies?

I guess.

Yeah, I don't know.

Interesting.

I read somewhere that it might be, and on the rare side, I read somewhere that it might be two to three deaths a year in the United States.

Elise says,

yeah, Elise.

Let the records show Elise made the sound a Malayan foxbat makes when it yawns and then hides its face.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

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Elise, what's the basis for your concerns about your neighbors?

Well, we're new to the neighborhood, right?

And our previous neighborhood, we didn't really get to make a bunch of friends and buddies with our neighbors.

And I was really looking forward to that.

And I just think that if they see we're housing a ton of bats, they might think we're creepy people.

And number two, there are like little children around.

There's a couple little girls that live on the side of us, and also we're across the street from the elementary school.

So I guess it might be an unrealistic fear, but a lot of it is like, what if I expose my neighbors, especially the children, to potential rabies exposures?

And I know it's so rare, but maybe that's where it's coming from.

It's like mostly for the welfare of the children.

When did you move again, remind me?

We just moved this week into our new house.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

And what was the problem with your last neighbors that made you have to move?

Were you keeping snakes?

No, we were just, we were renting in a nice neighborhood and we were looking to buy for some time.

So it was just time to buy our own house and move.

Did you have any difficulties with neighbors that maybe makes you a little bit shy about

throwing up a bat box in your backyard or being provocative in any way?

I mean, our...

dogs couldn't be too noisy and they couldn't really be dogs.

I don't know.

What do you think, Erin?

Our, I mean, our neighbors were a little judgy in our previous neighborhoods.

Tell me what happened.

What they judge you for.

I mean,

not like outwardly judgy, but like, I don't know.

One neighbor was like, oh, my dog, like, will come play with your dogs.

And we're like, well, our dogs are not that nice to other dogs.

Like, you probably don't want your dog playing with her dogs.

And then she never talked to us again.

Right.

The bat box in the picture has a bat on it, like a picture of a bat on it.

Yeah.

Are there bat boxes available that could pass for birdhouses or other non-bat structures?

Yes.

Does not have to look like a Batman bat box.

I mean, I don't know.

I remember those sisters who were fighting over whether to decorate their shed like the Adams family or not.

They might be upset if there were a bat box in your bat backyard that didn't look creepy and weird.

But on the other hand, Yes, there are lots of styles of bat boxes.

They're all kind of wide and flat.

And indeed,

there's a whole big article about bat boxes on the Massachusetts state, excuse me, Commonwealth website, mass.gov.

Look it up, mass.gov slash guide slash bat hyphen houses.

And you can see there a picture.

I mean,

I'll

share my screen again since I have this unusual power.

Jesse, can you see this bat house?

The bat house depicted on the Commonwealth of Massachusetts website looks just like the mailbox on the side of a suburban ranch house.

It is a very simple, contemporary-looking structure that no one would look twice at.

It could be the, you know, the cover of an air conditioner.

Although,

I have to say, looking at it now, you're absolutely right.

It looks very innocuous.

But now that I look at it closely, like the Hartford Whalers logo designed by Peter Goode, which uses negative space to stealthily include an H for Hartford in the logo, this one uses negative space to inscribe the bat box with two inverted crucifixes.

So it's a little bit scary,

but it's not too scary.

And indeed, the Luby Bat Conservancy,

well, this one goes the other way.

I was going to say, the Luby Bat Conservancy sells bat boxes with the proceeds going to keep those bats alive down there at the Luby Bat Conservancy, but these absolutely say bat cave on them and have a picture of a bat.

So I would shy away from those.

Would it matter?

I mean, between these two,

show at least these photos, if you will, Jesse, and we'll include photos of them again in our materials online.

Elise, can you see the picture of the Luby Bat Conservancy bat cave?

I can see it, yes.

All right, now don't comment on that.

Now look at this one from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Okay.

Pretend like you're getting your eyes checked for glasses.

Do you like this one a little bit more or do you like this one a little bit more?

This is B.

B or A.

A.

A.

Do you think your neighbors would look at that and think, well, there's a bat house?

I mean, they definitely wouldn't, but eventually they're going to see that the bats are going in and out of that box.

Realistically, how many bats do you think can smush their way into that box?

Maybe four or five.

Yeah, maybe four or five.

I agree with you.

I don't think much more than that.

Erin, is there some place where you can put the bat box where the neighbors won't see the bats sneaking in and out at night?

I don't think so.

We do have neighbors on like two sides and then the alley on the other side.

So I

think that they're going to see it.

What do you think is really going on, Erin, with Elise's concern here?

Is there something she's not talking about?

I mean, I think her main concern is

not wanting to be seen as weird.

And I mean, I get the like overly conservative, in my opinion.

view of not wanting to like hurt people with bats but I do think they do enough good to like counteract, you know?

We're trying to get the mosquitoes, make it so everyone can enjoy their yards.

Um, Elise, do you think that the risk of rabies is greater than the risk of mosquito-borne diseases?

No.

So, this is about perception for you.

Probably mostly, yes.

Yeah, I was gonna ask, uh, you know, Erin, I know that you love Elise.

You're married to her.

So, I'm not gonna ask you to speak ill of her.

I'm just going to ask Elise directly.

Elise, is this rabies thing a real concern?

Or is this just bad faith bat guana that you're trying to push on me to get me to will in your favor?

Remember, you're under fake oath.

It's a real concern.

And, you know, I do consider myself a worrier.

So I might worry about this more than...

even the average doctor.

I feel you there.

Elise, you talk about rabies being a concern when it comes to your neighbors.

What about you and your partner?

Are you rabies-proof or are you also concerned a bat might sneak into your house?

I mean, I do worry about if there is a sick or injured bat, I just worry about the dogs getting to it and bringing that into the house.

In a strange way, I'd worry about like Aaron being exposed to the rabies just because I am by virtue a worrier.

But if it happened to me, I'd, you know, I'd know what to do.

I'd just have to go to the Department of Public Health, get my raby shot.

It's easier for me to, like, it happened to me than to happen to Erin or small children, if that makes sense.

Have either of you had bad experiences with neighbors in the past?

Not really.

No.

Except for the like judgy, like not talking to us neighbors.

I mean, they weren't friendly, but they weren't like hostile.

Elise, given your concerns about the neighbors thinking you two to be odd or weird or whatever, have you taken any steps to connect with them to get to know them?

Yeah, as we've been moving in, we've been running into our neighbors who are walking their dogs and whatnot.

And some of them introduce themselves to us.

Sometimes we reach out first and introduce ourselves.

And it's been great.

We've been talking to neighbors.

Planning any block parties or anything?

No, we're having like a housewarming potluck.

So maybe I'll invite my neighbors over and see if they want to bring something and hang out with us.

And have you noticed, have they reacted in any way to the fact that when you walk your dogs, you wear a beard of bees?

You know, I have noticed.

They seem okay with it?

They're okay.

Yeah.

All right.

In my experience, as chronicled on this very show, the best way to connect with your neighbors is to bring over a five-foot-long octagonal iron pole to help get a rock out of the ground.

Aaron, I am now going to turn to you and risk having you to say something hard, perhaps, about your wonderful wife, Elise.

You can tell me.

Is this Bulguano or not this thing about the the rabies?

Do you think she's really, really a concern, or is it just a something?

So I think it's a real concern, but I think over the course of the case,

reading up on like the rates of rabies and the rates of mosquito borne illnesses, I think that, you know, Elise is a logical person.

She's coming to realize that like

maybe the risk of rabies is not as high as she had originally assumed it to be with the bats.

So you're saying the bats would be a net positive?

In my opinion, yeah.

All right, but may I be an advocate for Elise here for a a moment?

Let's say

your neighbor's precious children

get a case of West Nile virus.

What happens when a kid gets West Nile?

Is that bad, Elise?

So it can be like

nothing happens.

Sometimes you can have sort of like a flu-like illness.

Very rarely, it can be a like serious illness where people have ended up in the hospital, but usually it's like flu-like symptoms, rash, body aches, maybe maybe some fevers.

All right.

Well, let's just say that it's a medium to bad case of West Nile in your next-door neighbors.

Elise isn't going to be up all night going, oh, I wish I hadn't built that mosquito house.

Alternately, I mean, I presume you have no standing water or bogs around your house that you're maintaining for the purpose of raising and attracting mosquitoes, right?

No, we don't.

Right.

But on the other hand, if

one of these children gets rabies

from a bat and you got a bat house in your bat backyard, Elise, how would you feel then?

I couldn't live with myself.

You know what the bat Hippocratic oath is.

First, do no harm with bats.

You'd be violating your oath.

It's absolutely correct.

Aaron, have you tried any other mosquito abatement techniques?

Does permaculture offer any other solutions?

I mean, I don't think we've tried any other permaculture solutions.

We tried like citronella candles.

We tried

like those bug zapper things with like a racket where you're like, you get bit a few times and you're like, okay, I got to go get the rackets.

You go and you get the racket and then you get the mosquito, but you already have a couple bites.

Those things are amazing, though, right?

They do work really well, but they only work after you've gotten bit a few times, which I think is frustrating.

But it's banana.

Like when you connect with a bug and it like makes an outrageous cracking sound because you just electrocuted it to death, and you're like, Yeah, humans are the king of animals.

Yeah, we get it, especially if we get a mosquito in the house.

I like watch the mosquito and then I tell Elise to go get the racket.

And then we like, we get it.

Yeah, it's good.

My kids know to be scared of me when I have the racket in my hand.

Uh, yeah.

And there are also bug lights you can put out, but those are very grim too.

They just sit out there and um

and bugs run into them and go

it's like not permaculture, it's perma racket and it makes a racket yeah and there's bug spray like deet and stuff but i mean are we gonna like feel bad when we all get like cancer from putting deet on every day like i don't know it doesn't sound like a permaculture solution to me and i've based on what i've learned about it in my long study of permaculture tempiculture at best yeah and then of course

may i ask there is a machine powered by propane that runs all day long and all night long and silently emits a i think a kind of pheromone that attracts the bugs and the bugs go into a bag.

That can't be a permaculture solution.

A propane tank running all day long at night.

Yeah, doesn't sound like it.

Works real good for our neighbors in Maine, though, I'll tell you what.

Elise, if I order you to put a bat pole in your backyard with a bat box, how are you going to feel at night as you're sleeping thinking about bats?

I'll probably worry excessively about a bat getting into my neighbor's home.

And honestly, I'd worry for the welfare of the bats too, because I support like the conservation efforts and them controlling the mosquitoes, but you have to do bat boxes right.

You have to make sure that they don't overheat and hurt the bats.

Yes.

If a bat goes into somebody's house and they capture them for rabies testing, that's basically sentencing the bat to death.

You know, these are things I think about too.

You raise an important point, which is that bat boxes can be dangerous for bats, particularly in hot places, southern parts of the United States, including Long Beach.

They are not supposed to be stained dark.

They're supposed to be stained blonde

so that they do not absorb too much heat.

In the north, Massachusetts and above, in the region we call the southern maritime provinces of Canada, aka New England.

By the way, it's Newfoundland.

No, it's Newfoundland.

Newfoundland.

Newfoundland.

Okay, I got it finally, everybody.

I apologize, New.

Say it again, Valerie.

Newfoundland.

I apologize to the people of Newfoundland.

Newfound.

Newfoundland.

Newfoundland.

Newfoundland.

Anyway, up there,

you can have a dark-colored bat box because you want to absorb the sunlight.

Give that bat someplace cozy to smush.

Seems like, Elise, maybe you've done a little bit more research into bat boxes than Aaron has.

She's shaking her head.

No, she's done a lot of research.

Erin has.

Yes.

Okay.

Erin's not one to leap into

bat box type schemes lightly, is she?

No, she's all in.

And yet you don't trust her that this is going to be okay.

That's a hard question because I do trust her, but obviously with all my concerns, yeah, there is a lack of trust there.

Erin, is Elise a worrier?

Elise is a warrior, and I do have a tendency to have a lot of ideas, and not all of them are good ideas, but this one is a good idea.

Please give me an example of a verified bad idea.

I can't remember any bad ideas, actually.

I feel like in Elise's eyes right now is this look that says, which of the many bad ideas should I pick?

Yeah, I was going to say, I bet Elise can remember.

I'm trying to think of a specific example.

I can't right now, but when it comes to me, I'll let you know.

Okay.

I mean, we almost bought a house that needed a lot of, a lot of work.

And of course, I was like, we can do it.

It's fine.

And Elise is like, this thing is falling apart under our feet.

That's a good example.

Yeah.

But I bet it had a lot more yard room for bat boxes.

It did.

It did.

But I think in the end, we did end up in a better, better house and a better place.

So good thing that Elise had some concerns.

Are there any other compromises with regard to this move that I should take into consideration?

Uh, that a bat box might make amends for?

Like anything you had to give up, Erin, like,

oh, garden space or

I don't know, a den to keep your jellyfish tank in or

anything that someone does?

Like, are d do you think Elise owes you one?

Be honest.

I mean, our guest room no longer has room for my desk.

So I work from home, so

our guest room was previously my office, and now the laundry room is my office, which is a slight downgrade, I have to say.

But that's okay.

Elise, uh, does Aaron owe you one in any regard with regard to this move?

Any unresolved, unpaid debts that getting rid of a bat box might make up for?

I don't think so.

She's been amazing.

She doesn't owe me anything.

You can tell I'm trying to stoke some real conflict here because you both clearly care about each other and are probably willing to accept the verdict either way.

Yeah.

And yet you still, you know, like, I respect the desire to save the bats and I certainly respect the desire to kill the mosquitoes.

They don't do anything good bats do good you know that right bats do good in this world they don't just go around getting in people's hairs and giving them rabies they eat the bugs they help in pollination and they're cute and fuzzy and they yawn and take little naps bats are good animals but that said if you're going to be haunted by this rabies i don't know what to do i'm going to have to go smoosh myself up into my little judge box and consider my decision i'll be back in the moment once the sun sets.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Elise, how are you feeling about your chances in this case?

I don't know.

I think he can rule Aaron's way, so I'm a little worried about it.

We'll see.

Have you thought about just leaning into being a weird bat lady?

I mean, sometimes, yeah, I think I might have to.

Like, my aunt Gail is totally a weird husky lady.

But, you know, we had some litigants litigants on the show one time who had a husky and I said oh if you ever want another one you should get it from my aunt turned out they got the first one from my aunt

well you know I can lean into being weird with Erin as long as it's with Erin it's good Aaron how are you feeling about your chances in the case you know I'm not sure I feel like on one hand like I really think that we resolved the rabies section of it, but the being thought of as the weird people, that might still happen.

I mean, I personally don't care, but I know that Elise cares.

I'm glad that we did resolve that rabies, canard.

And that has led me to wonder whether ducks carry rabies.

We'll find out what Judge John Hodgman has to say about this case when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lollum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, as many of our listeners listen to this program, We will be on tour and I am excited to see everybody.

We still have shows left as of the release of this episode at the Gothic Theater in Denver, at the Sydney Goldstein Theater in San Francisco, and in Los Angeles.

Although the Los Angeles show currently sold out, the only way you can get in is if you have a dispute that we hear on stage.

Yeah, and if you do have a dispute for any of these shows, go to maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

If you want to grab some of those few remaining tickets for Denver or live in San Francisco, go to the events page at maximumfund.org or bit.ly slash jjho west.

And no matter where you are, we are streaming live across the world on February 4th.

This is the first time we've ever done this from the stage at SF Sketchfest.

It's going to be a real knockdown, drag out, blowout program.

You can watch it live if you live somewhere where it's going to be too late at night for you to stay up.

You do get a 48-hour viewing window with your ticket.

You're not going to be able to watch it anywhere else.

And there's lots of stuff in there that you will never get in any other form.

sfsketchfest.com is where you can get your tickets to that live stream.

It is going to be a ton of fun.

We're pulling out all the stops for that show.

So please come check it out.

Tickets are sfsketchfest.com, no matter where you live in this great world.

And of course, if you live in San Francisco and you want to come to the show in person, sfsketchfest.com is where you get those tickets too.

You'll see.

Just go check it out.

sfsketchfest.com bit.ly slash jjho west.

And if you're in San Francisco, I'll I'll be doing Jordan Jesse Go with Kevin McDonald of the Kids in the Hall,

the musician La Donia, who's one of my all-time faves.

It is a killer spectacular lineup there at Sketchfest.

And we're doing an oops all gamesies episode.

So it's going to be all kinds of stupid games.

I can't wait to get back to Sketchfest.

It's going to be so much fun.

I got a rap quiz for Kevin McDonald from The Kids in the Hall.

He's really going to get a kick out of that.

Okay.

If you're in San Francisco, go see see that show the night after our Judge John Hodgman show.

Make it a weekend.

Make it a long weekend.

Make it a weekend that never ends.

I just want to also mention, by the way, speaking of live shows, I mentioned the Luby Bat Conservancy in Gainesville, Florida.

They seem like a very good operation.

I only know them virtually.

But speaking of Gainesville.

Our friends David Reese and John Kimball, who co-host the Election Profit Makers podcast.

You know David, of course, because he's the co-creator of Dick Town on Hulu, a very wonderful cartoon for 13 and ups over there on Hulu.

Well, he also co-hosts a podcast called Election Profit Makers with his old friend from North Carolina, John Kimball.

It's a lot of fun, and they're doing one of their first live events in a forever.

In Gainesville, Florida, where else, but at Satchel's Pizza, their number one fan, Satchel at Satchel's Pizza is hosting them for a live event on March 7th.

If you haven't checked out Election Profit Makers, do check it out.

It's a lot of fun.

But remember, live streaming February 4th, sketchfest.com.

Check it out.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So first of all, I want to say bat houses are terrific, and so are bats.

Just to quote from my home Commonwealth for a moment at mass.gov.

slash guide slash bat hyphen houses.

Bat houses provide a safe environment for bats.

They protect your yard from insects like mosquitoes, moths, and beetles.

Plus, they give female bats a safe warm place to raise their young.

Did you know that most female bats only have one pup per year?

First of all, baby bats called a pup.

Cute.

But they only have one pup per year, so bat populations grow very slowly.

At the same time, their habitat is being degraded and it's becoming harder for bats to locate natural roost sites.

So installing a bat house, you can provide mothers and pups with a safe home.

You might not have known that, but I'll tell you what.

Mass.gov slash guides slash bat hyphen houses did.

And they also provide homes for bats that are free of white nose syndrome, which is a bad bat disease, apparently.

Bats are good.

Bat houses are good.

Yes, bats are the leading cause of death among humans who die of rabies.

It's true.

And that's scary.

But...

Going further north in the website geography to maine.gov, I can tell you right now, only about one of every 200 bats randomly sampled is positive for the rabies virus.

Not a lot of bats got it.

Plus, they're fairly easy to spot if they got rabies.

If they're active during the day, well, you know, any animal that is acting odd, you want to stay away from it.

Like that raccoon I saw on the beach in Maine that time.

That was weird.

Middle of the day, a raccoon walking up and down on the beach, giving me bad looks.

I stayed away.

I don't know.

Maybe he was looking for clams to open with his little thumbs.

They're not otters, Jesse.

They're known as the otters of the garbage can.

If you see a bat during the day, or if you see a bat doing something it shouldn't be doing or seems sick or it's on the ground, you want to stay away from it.

And indeed, if you get a bat in your house and it gets you,

you want to check and make sure you don't have rabies.

Not likely that you will, but you want to check.

Yeah, that's true.

But you know what?

I'm telling you

that having a bat box box in your backyard in long beach is not going to be a problem and i'll tell you why probably there aren't even a lot of bats around

i mean i haven't been to long beach in a while i don't know what part of it is and i know there's a lot of wildlife in southern california that isn't that isn't around in in brooklyn new york i remember i did a a little house show in a house in uh laurel canyon and as i was waiting to go on stage, that is to leave the kitchen and go into the living room to do this little house comedy show, there was a big piece of paper magneted onto the refrigerator listing local wildlife experts' rates for removing various animals from your property, trapping and removing raccoons, coyotes,

and also snakes, including rattlesnakes.

And it was like a menu of services, but with rattlesnakes, it just said priced according to size.

Fair.

When you're in Laurel Canyon, you got to worry about the eagles, too.

Yeah.

And maybe up there you got some bats.

I don't know in Long Beach.

Neither of you have ever seen one.

Jesse, you've lived in L.A.

for a long time.

You've never seen a bat.

And the fact is, there could be bats there that you don't see because most of the time bats don't want to get into your house.

It doesn't happen all that often.

I can think of two times in the 51 years that I've been alive that a bat has been inside my house.

Once when I was a kid in Brookline, Massachusetts.

And then once in Maine, when I was having some dinner with some friends, it flew into the screen porch and someone had to trap it with a colander and throw it away.

Not throw it away.

Release it.

No one got rabies.

The likelihood of the worst case scenario that you are worrying about, Elise, is very, very small for all of those reasons.

And what's more, the positive effects of having a bat house and providing comfort for the bats, if they even bother to ever show up over the next couple of years, is,

I think, a fairly meaningful positive, especially if it helps control those mosquitoes.

Your lives will be improved dramatically, and those of your neighbors.

And what's even more

is that I think a bat house properly placed and installed would look pretty innocuous.

And very few people would look at it and go, Those are those weird bat people who live there.

They wouldn't even know.

They wouldn't even know.

And you probably would never even see those bats coming and going if two to four bats ever did smush themselves up there.

Bat house is a good idea, and bats are good pups.

That said,

I respect a warrior.

Neil Stevenson is an author whom I enjoy quite a bit of

big novels, big long novels of ideas.

Jonathan Colton, my very dear friend, once said to me,

You should read this book by Neil Stevenson, Anathem.

It's a big, long novel about ideas.

And I said, I'm throwing that into the lake for two reasons.

One, sounds long and boring.

Two, my best friend recommended it to me.

For some reason, that always bothers me.

But I did end up reading Sam Neal Stevenson years later, and Jonathan was right.

Great, great, great writer.

Really readable too.

Whether it's Cryptonomicon or Ream D, those are the two ones that I read.

But there's one called Seven Eaves.

Came out a couple of years ago.

And I think about it quite a bit because

I'm a warrior too.

And there is a character in this book, and I don't think it spoils anything to say, but there's a character in this book who messes up a lot of things for a lot of people.

This is a life or death situation in space after

the moon mysteriously and unexplainedly disintegrates, causing massive havoc on Earth.

That's not a spoiler.

It's the first line of the book.

The moon just self-destructs.

No one knows why.

You never find out.

And humanity is trying to survive.

And there is one character who keeps messing things up for everyone

and

does so

because they think that they know best.

And what's revealed as the book goes on is that this person is a warrior.

This person is a worst-case scenario person and makes a lot of bad choices because this person keeps thinking of the worst case scenario and trying to avoid it and messes everything up for everybody else.

But at the end of the day, when they are deciding basically how to rebuild society, this person makes a case for for themselves.

And the person says, I know

that I have this problem where I see basically the darkest possible timeline of any scenario.

And I know that this causes problems as much as it helps.

But

civilization needs people like me to say these things and to point out what could happen.

in order to survive.

I think about that a lot.

I don't think it's easy to live with worry.

And if it's true for you, Elise, I know that it's true for me.

It's not easy to put aside worry.

Indeed, I have someone in my life who is less of a warrior and pushes me into

experiences that I can extrapolate out to their worst possible ends.

And I have the experiences and those worst possible ends don't happen.

And I'm so happy for having had those experiences.

Some of them include parenthood, for example.

It's hard to be a warrior.

It hurts.

And if it's something that's interfering with your life, it helps to talk to people about it and work on it.

Do the best you can, but

try to manage it in your life.

That said, it's something that just happens.

It's just part of who you are.

It's part of who I am.

I have intense sympathy for you.

And if you are just going to be up all night concerned that these bats are going to bite your neighbor's kids.

Well, I respect that.

And I think Aaron should too.

There's no rule that says you have to have a bat box in your backyard.

And if it's going to cause you to feel worried to distraction, then

it deserves being listened to.

I am less sympathetic to the worry that your neighbors are going to think you're weirdos.

Who cares?

You know,

life is too short, even if you never get rabies from a bat, you know, to worry about what the neighbors think.

And there's no reason that you would even have to ever say a darn thing to your neighbor about that bat box.

It's not their business.

And you don't have to go ask them permission or whatever.

This is one of the rare Judge John Hodgman situations where I don't think anything is benefited from going next door and going, Do you mind if I put a bat box up here?

People are just going to get weird about it.

None of their business.

But in consideration of your worry,

I do take real consideration.

And I trust that Aaron does too.

I think that it is fair to take some time with this decision.

Take maybe

a year or 18 months to settle into your new home, to get to know your neighbors a little bit better, to establish a bond with them, to observe if there are any bats even in the neighborhood, to perfect the bat box plan, to talk to people about this worry,

and evaluate over time if it is a meaningful one or not.

And then, and only then, if you change your mind, Elise,

Aaron can put in a bat box.

But I'm ordering a bat stay of bat execution of this bat scheme for a year.

And then

if Elise has changed her mind, and I think that it's reasonable, I think you should really push yourself, Elise.

I think you should really push yourself to see if you can be comfortable with this.

And if after a year you still can't, then

forget it.

What you do then, Aaron, is go next door, show the neighbor's kids the pictures of the bat box that you love so much.

They're going to get so excited about it as a science project.

They'll put it up in their backyard.

And if then they get rebies, it's their own damn problem.

You get rid of the mosquitoes.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules out as all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Aaron, how do you feel?

I feel pretty good.

I mean, I agree with him that I do care not to make Elise exceedingly worried.

And, you know, I feel like maybe in a year we'll be ready for the bad box.

Elise, were you just wiping tears from your eyes?

Yeah,

Judge John Hodgman made me unexpectedly emotional with his heartfelt statements about my worry.

And

I'm really taking

his judgment to heart.

And I'm going to put that year into really considerate with Aaron.

Jesse, I'd just like to express some concern.

I just overheard that Elise was tearing up a little bit and seeming...

She's in the studio with you, right?

This is a new thing.

Yeah, she's right here.

She seems like she's acting erratically.

She's acting differently from how she was acting before.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I'd be a little concerned.

I'm looking at the corners of her mouth just in case.

Guys, I got to go to the Department of Public Health.

I'll be back in a minute.

Elise, Erin, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

In a moment, we will have some swift justice.

Our thanks to Redditor Dr.

Colossus of Rhodes for naming this week's episode Acting in Bat Faith.

Dr.

Colossus of Rhodes, real veteran over there at the Maximum Fun Reddit.

It's one of those names you notice.

A great handle.

If you want to join the Reddit, maximumfun.reddit.com, very pleasant and welcoming place.

We'll ask for title suggestions there too, so keep an eye out for those.

Evidence and photos from the show are on our Instagram account.

That's instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

You can see that great picture of the dog that looks like the bat.

She's holding the phone with a picture of a bat, and then the dog is behind the phone,

looking exactly like the bat in the picture.

Yep.

And of course, we'll also at least link to the Luby Bat Conservancy Instagram account, that video of that beautiful, beautiful bat getting ready to take a nap.

Oh, so bashful.

Oh, and you know what the name of that bat is?

I just, I think, I'm sorry, I missed this.

He he.

Oh,

H-E-E hyphen H-E-E, the Malayan flying fox.

He he.

Pretty good.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

Our producer is Valerie Moffat.

Filling in for Jennifer Marmor, who's out on maternity leave.

We hope that you will join us in wishing Jennifer and Shane and their whole family all the best.

We're certainly thinking of you, Jen.

We love you.

Yes, indeed.

And good luck.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Valerie says, I like to use whatever handy spray cleaner is nearby to kill kitchen ants.

My husband prefers to wrap duct tape around his hand and pick them up that way.

Who has the better technique?

This isn't Valerie Moffitt, our editor, who wrote in.

Is this you, Val?

I would never have a husband.

Okay.

Certainly a good idea.

Don't have this husband, at the very least,

grim.

I feel like you may have accidentally married married a cenobite who finds the pleasure in pain this is weird sorry valerie's husband um

you you do what you look i'm i'm no fan of ants in the house i have nothing against ants in the world sometimes you got to get rid of the ants sometimes you got to do something about the bugs uh i don't you can do the duct tape if you want but um

I would not say that's the better technique.

If only because you got to take some time to put that duct tape around your hand and cut it off.

You know, it's hard to cut duct tape and everything.

It's just a.

You're going to get gunk on your floor.

Yeah.

Look,

I'm all for whatever your kink is, Valerie's husband.

But Valerie's, if the question is, what is a better technique, Valerie's is.

I'm getting some incredible emails at maximumfund.org slash JJHO about ancient grudges, childhood grudges,

old elementary school grudges.

I love that.

I read one today.

I don't want to spoil anything because this one's definitely going in the grudge pile, but it involves when someone was young listening into a dinner party downstairs and his cousin claiming that he tripped over him at the top of the stairs and that's why he fell down the stairs.

Whereas the other person is like, no, you kicked me, dude.

You said, you said hello, and then you kicked me.

If you have a grudge that you have yet to settle, you don't have to produce.

your grudge partner.

This is just someone that you want to air your grudge about on our podcast.

And I will probably rule in your favor if you tell the story well enough.

This could be someone from childhood, an extended family member, as I mentioned, an elementary school nemesis, a playground bully, just someone who rubbed you the wrong way in college or your first year out of school or whatever it is.

Let us know.

MaximumFund.org slash JJHO is where you are to send all of your disputes.

And it doesn't matter if it's not not a grudgy dispute, if it's just a regular old my life partner does things the wrong way dispute.

We want to hear those as well, don't we, Jesse?

Submit them.

No case too big or too small.

We considers them all.

Submit your case at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

And remember, we're on tour right now.

I think there are probably still a few tickets left in a few places, but there are definitely.

tickets still left for our live streaming show from San Francisco Sketchfest February 4th.

Get those tickets at sfsketchfest.com.

That is going to be a heck of a show, John.

I am excited to be going into the living rooms of people all across this great nation and indeed the world.

Yeah, indeed.

I mean, we may well sell out our live show at San Francisco Sketchfest, but there are unlimited tickets available anywhere in the world to those of you who cannot be in the room with us that very night.

It'll be a great time in the room.

It'll be a great time in your room.

Go to sfsketchfest.com to get tickets to the live streaming event of our Sketchfest show.

And of course, go to the events page at maximumfund.org to get what tickets remain for our remaining shows on tour.

That includes the Gothic Theater tomorrow night, the 2nd of February in Denver, Colorado.

As I said, the Sketchfest show, both live and virtual, sfsketchfest.com.

And then finally, we're all sold out at the Masonic Lodge at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery in Los Angeles.

However, we're finalizing our cases still.

If you have a case that you think we should consider, you're live on stage, please let us know at maximumfund.org/slash JJ H.O.

If you don't have tickets, we'll sneak you in the side door so that you can argue about stuff on stage with us.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

MaximumFun.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist-owned, audience-supported.