Filing For Skankruptcy

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm guest bailiff Gene Gray filling in for Jesse Thorne this week.

Filing for skankruptcy.

Chris brings a case against his friend and

how dare you.

That was one of the most brilliant titles I've ever heard, filing for skankruptcy.

Skankruptcy.

Chris brings a case against his friend and bandmate, Nat.

Chris would like to incorporate some ska music into their band's repertoire, but Nat is opposed.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Hello, Ronald?

Yes.

I hold in my hand an album.

It's called The History of Ska, Volume 2, The Golden Years, 1966 to 69.

Would you like to hear the first cut on it by the Scatalites?

Is it called Our House?

No, dude, that's madness.

I'm talking 66, pal.

One step beyond?

Ugh, you're a piehole.

Wow.

I hope we're on a seven-second delay here.

Guest Bailiff Gene Gray, please swear the litigants in.

Chris and Nat, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or Jamaica as a whole?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that there are no facts anymore?

I do.

Yes.

Fair enough.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Thank you, guest bailiff, Gene Gray, Chris, and Matt, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you guess the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the courtroom?

Well, let's see.

Now, wait a minute.

You two guys are in a band, right?

Yep, correct.

Yeah, yeah.

And you're in, where are you?

Chicago?

We're in Chicago.

Yeah, yeah.

And what age are you?

We're in our 30s.

You're in your 30s?

Okay.

Early, mid-30s.

Early to mid-30s?

Okay.

So you got a, you, you know, this one.

Both of you know this one, right?

I have a guess.

I've got nothing.

You got nothing?

What's your guess then, Chris?

Because I'm afraid Nat's going to run away with it.

I was going to go season four, episode eight of Brooklyn 9-9,

where

Andy Sandberg's character, Jake Peralta, says,

Ska defines my life, and I'll never turn my back on Ska, but I don't think that's it.

It's a good guess.

I didn't say any of those words.

No.

But I do love the specificity of it.

All right, Nat, you ready to steal this thing?

I hope so.

Prior to when we started recording, I decided that my nickname for you was Natto.

Right.

In the Ska band we're forming, you're called Natto.

That would make sense in the Ska band, yes.

That's right.

I agree.

exactly so all right go ahead let's hear um my best guess especially given the hints about uh chicago and uh music uh is the classic film high fidelity high fidelity that's a terrific guess you didn't that all guesses are wrong

i really thought you were going to steal that one you were coming at it with huge confidence natto i was really feeling you

You misread my level of confidence.

Oh, okay.

I can only just see you in a tiny little frame in my teleconference program.

I just see you and Chris sitting on opposite sides of a couch together in a studio somewhere in Chicago.

I was figuring you guessed being a musician in Chicago.

It's just not a Chicago thing, but just, you know, Chicago is a cool town, that you would guess that it was

the very famous comedy sketch by Tom Sharpling and John Worcester called Rock, Rot, and Rule.

Have you ever heard of that, either of you?

Not you've heard of Tom Sharpling.

Yeah.

You've heard of Tom Sharpling.

Okay.

So Tom Sharpling hosts what was once a terrestrial radio station and now is an amazing live webcast called The Best Show.

And John Worcester is the drummer for Super Chunk, but he's also Tom's friend and an incredibly talented comedic performer.

And

I've quoted him.

He's been a cultural reference before, as has Tom.

The Best Show is really great.

And this was sort of their breakout sketch.

John called into the show claiming to be, and this was set up between Tom and John, claiming to be Ronald Thomas Klantel, the author of a new book called Rock, Rot, and Rule, the ultimate argument settler, in which every band was listed with the single adjective defining whether they rock, rot, or rule.

And it was very controversial.

And one of the things that he said was, you know, like David Bowie, David Bowie didn't rule, he only rocked.

And that's because he had too many changes, is what he said.

And

no band that didn't have a guitar could rock,

but madness rules and went to them automatically because they invented ska.

And

this is not true.

And

it prompted a series of erate phone calls from ska fans.

which really the best people.

And not just ska fans, but ska snobs.

Sknobs, if you will.

There's going to be a lot of that during this entire episode.

It's going to get bad.

Calling in angrily to defend the fact that ska was invented in Jamaica in the 60s and imported by the second wave of ska bands, Madness, the specials, primarily those two.

I can't think of a third.

Can you, Chris?

You love ska so much.

No, I'm not a music historian.

That is by far the more musically knowledgeable between the two of us.

The Scotty Pippins.

Right, that's right.

It's the special

madness and the Scotty Pippins.

Listen, we're just getting started.

Who defined

the rocksteady sound of ska meets punk in the two-tone tradition in England in the 70s and 80s.

And then, of course, there was third wave ska, but we'll talk about that later.

In any case, look,

this is just another example.

If you're going to take a stab at guessing the cultural reference, you won't go wrong guessing the best show, and you won't go wrong guessing the mountain goats, for whom John Worster is the drummer, too.

So it's a twofer.

But High Fidelity was a really great guess.

Brooklyn 99 was a really great guess.

Let's go ahead and hear this case.

Who seeks justice

in this fake courtroom of law?

I do, Your Honor.

That would be Chris.

Chris, what is the justice you seek?

Nat has a blanket ban on playing Ska in our band that I think is unjust.

I that we ought to give ska a try because I want to play ska and a couple of the other members of the band want to play ska.

And I think we should try it.

We've never tried it.

I think we ought to give it a shot.

Now wait, Nat, I'm going to give you plenty of time to present the anti-ska argument because there are a lot of people out there making it every day.

Don't worry, you're going to get it.

But I just need some more details first.

Nat, how long has the band been playing together?

I want to say a year or two.

I don't remember exactly.

Oh, okay.

So it's relatively new.

Well, we've been friends and co-worker.

We started out as co-workers.

We no longer work together, but we've known each other for about four or five years.

And so that friendship merged into starting a band together.

Okay.

And is this a band that plays out in the world?

No.

So it's just a fun-time band for friends?

It's a fun-time band.

We do have our first performance for friends in a friend's house.

So it's not still really not out, but that'll be coming up in a month or two.

A house concert.

Gene, you ever do a house concert?

Absolutely not.

I've been asked to do a house concert, but I don't want to go to anyone's house.

No, you want to live, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, you don't want to be put in a pit in a basement.

No, not at all.

That's what happens.

You guys got to be careful.

Yeah.

Someone's going to trap you in a closet.

Do you know this, this friend that you're going to play this secret

house show?

Yes, yeah.

This is another one of our former co-workers who has turned her house into a combination art gallery and performance space.

As one does.

And collection of bands that she likes.

In the basement.

In the basement.

What is the name of the band, Chris?

Shrexecutioner?

Kind of sounds like a ska band to me.

I got to tell you.

Yeah, you're not wrong.

Nat, what is Shrexecutioner all about as a band?

It's a lot of loud

chaos.

I would say it certainly has its fill of irony

as we are a Shrek-themed

punk hardcore type band.

It's mostly just a bunch of dumb people having fun with their friends.

Right.

But in a specific way, right?

The correct way to have fun.

How many people?

There are five of us.

We have three guitar players.

Okay.

So that puts us in the rock category, potentially.

And how many trombones?

Zero trombones.

So to make Chris's case, one of our guitar players is a trumpet player, is a formerly

fairly trained trumpet player, though he's not played trumpet in this band.

So there are some scossibilities.

Yes.

Can I ask why you guys would start

a Shrek rock band when the market is so flooded with them?

Like there's just too many.

I feel like we got in a little bit on the ground floor of some of the Shrek stuff.

We were in Shrek Secutioner when pieces were published in newspapers about Shrek Raves and that Shrek concert in Milwaukee.

What was that called?

Shrek Rave.

Shrek Rave.

Yeah.

So I feel like we got in a little bit on the ground floor of some of the Shrek.

It's related to some.

Wait,

what is going on here, Chris?

I asked that question as a joke.

Is this true, Chris, or are you rolling with the improv Chicago style?

No,

I feel like we did do Shrek stuff before it was popular.

One of the...

No, that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the popularity of is there a Shrek rave or no?

Are you just yes anding me?

There was a New York Times article about Shrek raves.

Have you not seen the style section?

Judge, I hate to barge in here, but I have a sister who attended a Shrek Rave in Los Angeles.

Wait, it's multi-cities?

Yeah.

And like the director or somebody who was involved in the making of Shrek was at the Shrek Rave.

Gene, did you know about any of this?

No, but I have been to the band camp and heard some of the songs.

And my only question is why you didn't name the band Shrekago.

I feel like that was a missed opportunity, but...

Were you at Ross's band camp, the Rare Walnut Band Camp?

Yeah, so that's Ross's solo project.

He found a flow state

in taking the song All-Star by Smash Mouth.

and mashing it up

featured prominently in the DreamWorks classic Shrek.

Right.

Um,

and he has just found boundless creative inspiration.

It is boundless, it is many songs.

There are dozens and dozens of tracks where he mashes up the song All-Star by Smash Mouth, featured in Shrek, with other songs.

Yes, yes, Jennifer Marmer, can you share your screen and go to that website so that we can hear a track?

The one that I really grooved to was I Want You to Donkey.

Can we hear that track for a second?

I want

you to want me.

I need

you to meet me.

I'd love

you to love me.

Somebody wants to be the

film is gonna roll me.

I think the sharpest jewel in the shop.

She was thinking

down with the baby and a thumb and

love you told me.

Well, I'll share Star Yole Brown and she's not coming.

Black to the rules and I shoot the ground running.

I'll get over there's nothing more fun.

All right.

I'm afraid we're going to get sued to oblivion if we listen to any more of that.

That is pretty

intense.

Commitment.

Yeah, that's, but that's, that's Ross's side project.

And Ross is what member of your band?

He's a guitarist.

He's one of the three guitarists.

And what do you play, Chris?

I play the bass.

The bass and Nato?

I'm also one of the guitarists.

Okay.

But we're not here to hear about Ross's side projects.

We're here to talk about Shrek Secutioner.

And you worked pretty hard to gin up this controversy, this clear Judge John Hodgman bait, to get on this podcast so we could play your demo.

So let's go ahead and play a little of the demo so that we can get a vibe on the work Shrek Secutioner.

What's the name of this song?

Set it up for me, Chris, since Nat pointed at you and said you're the overmind of this scheme.

No,

this is all Nat.

This song, as far as I know, is also called Shrek Secutioner.

Shrexecutioner by Shrek Secutioner.

Yeah, it's our one and only original.

This is a demo that Nat put together for coverage.

Oh, so you're mostly a cover band.

Mostly we play covers.

This is a Shrek Secutioner original entitled Shrek Secutioner.

Yep.

Yep.

Exactly.

All right.

Gene, you want to set it up?

All right.

We're going to get into Shrek Secutioner

by

you guessed it: Shrexecutioner.

Okay, that well, that's a different vibe from Ross.

Slightly.

Who's doing the vocals?

That's me.

I'm the primary screamer in the band.

Good job.

Good screaming.

And what was the Shrek theme to this song?

What are the lyrics?

Well, when you get to the chorus, it's

I'm just a big, fat, ugly ogre with a big green face, my tiny ears, my tiny vest.

Peel back the layers like an onion, and then you'll see there's nothing left to love inside of me.

Whoa.

So, so you know, it's like if Shrek was sad and in a band, yeah, yeah,

I can see how, given based on this song, this is not a band that really would lend itself to an easy vibe change to ska.

That was gonna be what I said: that if I

specifically went to see this band, and I was like, Yeah, and

then

out of nowhere,

um, ska,

I would be terribly upset in spiritual, physical,

just so many ways.

Isn't Ska always kind of taking you by surprise?

It's always jumping out at you a little bit.

It's always a surprise.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right, Chris.

Sorry.

No, no, no.

I respect it.

I got you.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Gene,

you are a polymathic genius of many, many talents, writer, director, actor, comedian.

You have a new job selling old things.

We'll talk about it a little later in the podcast at a new Instagram account, Instagram.com slash B222NYC, B-E-A-222NYC.

You're selling vintage, curated vintage clothing from your moms and your collection.

And

worn by, previously worn by ska bands.

Among your portfolio of many creative endeavors, you are also a musical artist.

Do you have an opinion on ska?

I am a fan of

like, oh, I like Desmond Decker and like Toots and Maytels, you know.

But I will say that there is no

point in my life where I've ever been like,

what should I put on today?

And then the answer has been Ska.

I used to have a show called Doubled Over, which is a show I did at Alamo Draft House.

And

this is the most experience that I've had with Ska

is that we decided that we were going to do a fake ad for a trilogy of movie called about Scoblins.

They're goblins, but Ska.

So the first movie is Bad to the Trombone.

The second movie is Scoblins to Checkered Past.

And the third one, they are at college, and that one is called Full Scholarship.

So

I'd say Beyond Enjoying Ska

as a pun, and maybe I'd think the only song I could possibly jam to just because it reminds me of New York City is Israelites.

But beyond that,

I like to stay away from Ska, and I enjoy if it would stay away from me and definitely not make a surprise appearance.

Well, Nat, you definitely have guest bailiff Gene Gray on your side, and we haven't yet given you an opportunity to speak out against Ska yourself.

So let's hear it.

Why are you opposed to Ska in Shrexecutioner?

yeah well uh i think uh the canadian punk band propagandi said it best when they said ska sucks

um gene gray made an excellent case against ska

um i just don't like it uh it's pretty dorky um too it's got a real like band kid energy um that i just don't think is appropriate for our band in the vibe that I would like us to cultivate in our band.

Doesn't rock hard enough for you.

Correct.

It doesn't rock at all.

You would say that it rots.

Yes.

Ska is pretty far in the rot category for me.

And I also want to disagree with something Chris said earlier, which is he's trying to make this argument that we should give Ska a chance and we should just try it out, as though there haven't been many repeated attempts to play Ska in this band that I have had to put up such a harsh firewall.

Yes, Nat, I noticed in your request for an ideal ruling that not only would you like me to ban Ska in Shrek Secutioner's playlist, but also to ban other members of the band from trying to turn other songs into Ska songs.

Has this actually happened?

Have your band members been trying to sneak in Ska?

Yes, this is a frequent problem.

In addition to people simply just starting to play maybe the opening chords to Superman by Goldfinger.

Sometimes we'll be playing a song or vamping on a chord progression.

Maybe it's the chorus to Zombie by the Cranberries.

And we're playing it in a rock fashion.

And then some of the members will try and turn it into a ska song by changing to playing in a ska beat.

So they'll kind of do the drum intro and start doing the upstrokes, the skanks.

Right, the off the offbeat, upstroke, which is the signature of ska.

And so I will attempt to stop that by turning on every pedal I have, making as much harsh feedback as I can,

and slowly chanting kill ska music until it stops.

Now, I just wanted to clarify that

I like my ska

Jamaican.

I think the issue has been, it's sort of, you know,

when people take

rap songs and then turn them into folk songs, it gives me that same energy.

And there's some stuff that I'm like, you know, why can't you guys just leave this alone?

Just leave it alone.

Fair enough.

I mean, there is a lot of distance between Desmond Decker

and the mighty, mighty Bostons.

Like, yeah, there's like, you know, when we think about cultural appropriation, to take reggae-influenced dance music and make it your own in Boston, that's kind of, oh, boy.

That's kind of the apex.

Yeah.

That's kind of the apex.

I like ska, but we'll, we'll talk more about that later.

Oh, is that right?

Well, you know, here's the thing, everybody.

There are three waves of ska.

There is Jamaican ska.

right, which was more up-tempo

dance hall reggae music.

Then there's there's the third wave of ska, which is what happened to us all in the 90s.

And between them is the second wave of ska, which is the English/slash expatriate Jamaican bands in London, most including Madness.

They did not invent ska, but most notably the specials.

And I would say that that first specials album is a kind of masterpiece.

I'm all right with it.

I'll allow it.

And I do accept that you described the 90s wave of ska as what happened to us, because I feel like that's terrible.

Yeah.

And I don't know that you can excuse the second wave of ska as good as that first specials album is.

None of that second wave of ska can be forgiven for what it begot

in terms of the bands that came in the 90s that took the ska feel.

So yes, I am running down the Mighty Mighty Bostones, and that's going to get me some evil looks when I go back to Massachusetts.

But I mean, like, think about it.

Dickie Barrett's an anti-vaxxer.

That's what I say to you, my new idea of Boston's fans.

I know you're not happy about it either.

But in any case, you know, like my point of view is always, and I'm on the record on this, like, I don't understand necessarily why punk music that came out of England in the late 70s and early 80s is revered and ska is an automatic punchline, considering that the specials were an incredibly tight band that not only wrote about big contemporary issues in ways that were intelligible, but also were not all white guys, unlike most punk bands.

Like it was, it was a genuinely multicultural, large band that I think deserves respect.

So that's now all of our scards are on the table.

We all know where we stand with Ska.

And I think there's a little something for everybody there.

Judge, may I ask a question?

You may, please.

Uh, Chris and Nettie Gann.

I don't know if that reference is too old for you.

Is Nettie Gann an old reference?

Am I old people?

Yeah, it's old.

Okay, it's old.

Um,

it was a movie, it was a movie, fantastic movie.

She had a wolf, Meredith Salon, she had a wolf, yeah.

Um, she had a wolf, may

she had a wolf in that orphan hat.

Um, may I ask if you've considered,

I feel like I like the idea of like a surprise change.

I've I feel like ska would make, would anger people.

And I don't know if you're trying to anger people.

And I'm like, maybe like I could deal with something if I was at that show and I was like, oh, bossa Nova out of nowhere?

Like, I feel like if you're really doing it intentionally, like, go for it, unless you're just trying to piss people off.

So, have you, have you thought about switching to any other genre?

And

is is for Nat, is it just, is it specifically Ska?

Or are you like, we need, I want to stay within our genre?

And you know what, Nat, I'll invite you also to explain one more time what your genre is.

Because I'm looking at your set list here in the evidence, and I don't see a lot of Shrek theming to it.

And I heard one song.

So

what is your genre and why would Ska not work within it?

So I would say

to answer gene's question i do think that they are trying to upset people by playing scott but particularly they are trying to upset me um so it's not about the audience reaction it's about my reaction who founded the band uh i i did along with our drummer ryan Okay.

And we slowly started inviting more and more people.

And once we had a full band together, we realized we didn't have a bassist and Chris wanted to hang out with us.

So he bought a bass.

Whoa.

So Chris is the most recent member of the band?

Yes.

And he bought a bass to be in it?

Yes.

I did not play the bass.

Chris, you've got a lot of nerve.

Yeah.

You got a lot of nerve sparking a ska mutiny at this point.

Since You've Been Gone by Kelly Clarkson, Grand Theft Autumn by Fallout Boy, 1,000 Miles by Vanessa Carlton, Hollowback Girl by Gwen Stefani.

You already got that in your set list.

Well, Hollaback Girl is not a Ska.

No, I know.

I know, but, you know, No Doubt was one of those third-wave ska bands originally.

Whoa, you're covering What's Up by Four Non-Blondes?

Tell me how you cover that song.

We do that in sort of like a pop-punk style.

So you'll see a thread throughout there that we have a lot of,

you know, 90s, early 2000s pop punk in our repertoire, pop punk and emo.

I think that that ended up kind of being the intersection between our interests.

Right.

So the song you heard earlier is the kind of music I'm most interested in writing.

So kind of metal, hardcore.

But we had to,

I have compromised, so I don't want it to be seemed like I'm trying to dictate all of our tastes.

The current set list we have actually is the compromise between.

But you're not willing to make us compromise.

Exactly.

Stipulating that you as the founder of the band doesn't need to compromise with the bass player ever.

Thank you.

is you know you let the drummer write a song once a decade that's a that's the only thing bass player keep it to yourself fair but matt what is a compromise that you made um i mean fallout boy newfound glory these are all much farther on the pop side uh than i'm typically interested in um i think they're fun enough songs to play but that is that is the compromise position okay what's your favorite song on the playlist um

hmm Our version of Since You've Been Gone by Kelly Clarkson,

that song is actually a very underrated

hit.

I think that that song goes a lot harder than people realize.

And I think if you really bring out the elements and the contrast in it,

it can be a very intense song.

So I think we have something that it kind of feels original to us, even though it's a cover.

It's a good mix for us.

And that's, if we want to play something that's going to upset people, I think that that's where I'd like for us to play.

So, yeah, you have it broken down into your set list into actively learning standards, less regularly played, also best songs ever written.

And there's only one song in that category, which is The Song True Executioner, which we've heard.

I like that.

Overall, then, would you say that your band's mood is kind of like,

Let's take this song and make people think a different way about it by interpreting it in a cool way?

I would like to think so.

Another way to view that would be, let's take an interesting song and just play it really loudly and poorly.

But fair enough.

I'm also happy with that.

Fair enough.

All right.

So I'd like to get back to something that you mentioned early, which was that Ska is dorky.

And Chris,

basically, Nat just called you a dork.

How do you feel about that?

He's not wrong.

I'm a pretty huge dork.

I think we're all kind of dorks in the band.

Nat, what makes Ska dorky?

You know, it just, especially, and I want to clarify, I think we really are talking about third-wave Ska in this debate in our mind.

I understand that.

And so that's.

But you also understand that that is now.

I understand that that is also well within your wheelhouse in terms of the decades that you're covering.

Yes.

Yeah.

I'm not saying that it's a great part of history, but you are erasing it.

Yes.

Yes, that's true.

I mean,

Ska, you know, brings to mind,

you know,

Trilby hats, you know, wearing suspenders and belts, checkered vans.

It kind of feels aesthetically, you know, just one step removed from 90s swing revival.

One step removed or one step beyond?

One step beyond.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

So, you know,

it doesn't feel cool in any way that I can imagine.

The swing band revival, there can be no

greater expression of contempt than to compare a musical genre with the swing band revival of the 90s.

And that is exactly what I intend.

Yeah, no, I understand.

And as someone who lived through that,

I feel your age.

This is a very upsetting time for the black community.

Speak to that, Gene.

Get out of here with your song called Zoot, Suit, and Riot, please.

I'll set you on fire.

Please.

What are we doing?

Yeah.

What are we doing?

Because there are histories and communities that are connected to these songs and these styles

and if you just take them and put them on it's no good please and you do a bad job at it it's no good yeah you know all right so there you go that's some that's some pretty damning stuff there chris how do you respond make a case for ska cool is relative i you might not think that ska is cool but to me ska feels cool What songs do you want to cover?

What songs do you want to cover?

You know, Superman by Goldfinger was brought up as one of them, and I remember being a kid playing Tony Hawk's Pro Skater on my Nintendo 64 and thinking that that was one of the coolest things that I ever heard.

And I don't think that you can necessarily, I appreciate the conversation that we've been having around cultural appropriation.

I think that's an important one.

To me, my like growing up was

Scot was a big part of that.

And

it's, I, yeah, it's not cool if you were to define cool in an objective sense of like people who are popular think that this thing is good.

Um, but to me, it was cool.

And I had fun going to shows and skanking and doing stupid stuff as a kid.

Can you skank right now?

No one will be able to hear it, but I'll be able to see it.

Can you skank for me?

I can.

Hang on.

I love that.

I'm old now, so it's hard.

But all right, skank for me right now.

Here we go.

Yeah, you're good at it.

I got a lot of practice.

We're recording this meeting, so we'll have some video evidence of your mid-torso

and your knees a little bit.

Your face, I'm sure you'll be grateful to know, has not revealed.

Yeah, that's good.

Although you did mention your frosted tips.

Do you have frosted tips going on in your hair?

I do have frosted tips going on in my hair situation.

What is that?

Tell me what that's about.

I need a moment to compose myself.

Okay,

so our guitarist Ross is notorious for

taking on a number of food-based challenges.

He has previously tried to eat four pounds of spinach.

Then he attempted to eat an entire case of sliders from a popular fast food slider chain.

And so recently he had been going on about how he could easily eat two pounds of Swedish fish.

And it had gotten to a point where I was like, you know, put up or shut up.

And we were sitting around.

I said, you know, Ross, if you eat two pounds of Swedish fish, I'll get frosted tips.

And then he did it.

And so I got frosted tips.

He took down two pounds of Swedish fish.

Yep, in 24 minutes.

This is the same guy who's mashing up Smash Mouth.

Yep.

With everything in the world?

Yeah.

Where's Ross when you need him?

I need this guy on the podcast.

Ross's through line is commitment.

That's right.

Very true.

Committing to the world.

I just want to go on the record.

I don't approve of competitive eating.

I think it's gross and wasteful.

I think it's a display of affluence that is disgusting to me.

You can tell Ross that I said that.

I like his mashups.

I will smash mouth-ups, but

I don't like what goes in his mouth.

But I'm glad you honored your commitment.

Got those frosted tips.

Oh, his through line is also mouth.

Smashing things into his mouth.

What's that about?

A lot to unpack.

A lot to unpack.

Yeah.

Nat, what does cred mean to you?

You know, I

am a self-identified goth.

So So it's important to me to sort of have my own credibility.

You know, I care a lot about what things are cool or not cool.

I don't want to necessarily, I know that Chris says that he thinks Sky is cool.

Chris was also on the Unicycle basketball team.

So I feel like his credibility in that area is pretty lacking.

You are,

what's wrong with the unicycle basketball team?

You know, I guess

somewhere on the rock, rot, and rule list, I don't know that it would be very high.

You're saying that it rots.

It rots, yeah.

You know, whatever five to seven people with trumpets and guitars want to do in the privacy of their own home is not for me to judge.

I'm just trying to keep it out of my own band.

So speaking of your own band, we did receive some affidavits from your other other band members taking a position on this.

Have you been made aware of these affidavits, Nat?

Yes.

Okay.

Ryan, your drummer, says, quote, I'd happily play some ska music.

Danielle, what does Danielle play?

She's our third guitarist.

Third guitarist.

I don't want to play ska music.

I don't like ska music.

It should be enough that those who like ska can play it and listen to it on their own.

And now from Ross, oh, Ross offers what he calls his skafidavit.

I am a University of Chicago trained composer and musical theorist.

I attest to the integrity of ska as a musical genre.

I grew up playing the trumpet, and it would mean the world to me if all my bandmates would accept this music as a valid form of creative self-expression.

Lastly, we are a Shrek-themed band.

It would be entirely aligned with our creative aesthetic to perform a custom track called Get Out of My

Scamp.

Scamp.

All right.

Heard a lot from Ross.

Ross has a big presence.

He's not even on this podcast today.

And we're hearing a lot from Ross.

He's a big presence in our lives, too.

So that's one vote from the bassist, Chris.

One vote from the drummer, Ryan.

Well, the drummer only gets half a vote anyway.

So one vote from the bassist, half a vote from the drummer.

One vote.

That's two and a half votes for and two votes against.

You and Danielle, Nat, are the two votes against.

Even with the drummer only getting half a vote, which is generous, of course, in any band.

I'm just kidding around, drummers.

I love you, but you only get a half a vote.

Even if we only give the drummer a quarter a vote, you're outnumbered in your own band, Nat.

Why shouldn't it be a demoscressy?

Wow.

Well, I think giving a bassist a whole vote is also perhaps going a bit too far.

And I don't know if it's relevant to this case here, but Danielle, who is also on my side, is also Chris's spouse and roommate.

So

there's a lot of interpersonal dynamics going on here as well.

But she's on your side.

She's on my side.

You're not accusing them of corruption.

She's voting against.

She's splitting the ticket.

Right.

My fear is that we'll devolve into sconarchy

if we allow we allow this into into our bands

what are you afraid will happen without the pun really i i mean i think once you play one ska song you're a ska band and then every song can be a ska song and i think that we're gonna have no no boundaries no lines that the that's a slippery slope

We played that one Creed song that one time and he said the same thing.

He's like, oh, we played Creed.

Now we're a Creed band.

Exactly.

And we have a nightmare.

We haven't played any Creed since then.

And thank you for that.

And somehow we're still the Creed band.

What are your plans for this band, Matt?

Where do you see this going?

I think that, you know, a band really does have to be.

a group led by consensus.

I think that there are bands that are perhaps driven by a single creative vision who's kind of directing everyone but then you also kind of become everyone's boss and telling everyone what to do and i'm not really interested in being a band where i'm bossing my friends around and telling them what we have to write and when we have to practice and that they need to get a lot better or whatever you just want the wrong people to shut up Right.

Yeah.

I have this one line.

This is the one line I'm trying to take.

And I think that, you know, we have found compromise.

I think we should continue to find compromise.

I would love if people were interested in writing more original songs, especially writing stuff

in some of these more, some of these genres that I'm more interested in.

But I also understand that if that's not what people are interested in, we should find the overlap of our interests because I do think we have enough common ground to find something rather than focusing on the things where we are opposed to each other.

What if Chris wants to write an original song that is a ska song?

The line still holds.

No ska.

I feel like he has it.

Once he gets one ska song in there, it only escalates.

But Matt, you're saying

original songs, but no original ska songs.

No, no ska music of any kind under any circumstances is what I would ideally like.

But what do you care about if your band is cool or not?

You're only playing with your friends.

You're not, no one sees it.

That's a good point.

You're going to go to the, you're going to play this one house party and then you're going to be in a basement for the rest of your lives because of your creepy co-worker who's going to kidnap you.

I think that that makes it even more important because it's about feeling cool yourself.

I think Chris was getting at this earlier of, you know, how do you make sure that, you know, you're having fun and you feel like you're a cool person.

And so if I'm only doing it for my, if we're only playing for ourselves, why would I spend any of that time playing something I don't like?

That makes me feel worse.

May I ask if a scompromise could be that you take an origin, a ska song and then do it in your genre?

So that it's no longer a ska song?

Yes, but it is still a ska song.

You're talking about deconscoructing a ska song.

This is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

Who said that?

Who said that?

That was me, Chris.

Chris?

Okay, so there we go.

I do think if we were in net reducing the amount of ska in the world, I think that that would be a noble cause.

So you're saying, Nat, that you would just feel

inside icky if you were playing a ska song in the band.

I would not enjoy it as we were doing it.

Right, right.

Chris, why is ska so important that you want to make your friend sick to his stomach while he's playing one of the 17 guitars in this band?

I

understand Nat's aversion to ska.

I think we all like what we like, and that's okay.

We

are still trying to figure out our identity and our sound as a band.

And

I

like Bailiff Gray's suggestion that we should try to take something that is ska or ska adjacent and make it our own and continue that avenue of creative exploration.

I genuinely don't know where the line is in a creative collaboration such as ours between respecting and honoring boundaries and trying to push them in service of exploring what feels true and authentic to us as a group.

I don't know where that boundary lies.

And

I am trying to explore this thing that feels meaningful to me and not saying, nah, and I'm a bassist and I'm not even a good bassist.

So, and I don't have that many other friends that I could go and explore some sort of side project with.

So I am, and I like Ska.

So I'm so many layers of not being being cool that I have this opportunity to try to explore this thing that makes me feel cool and

is fun for me.

And I think I'm asking this of Nat to put on hold this feeling of ick, this feeling of uncool, to give me an opportunity to explore this

feeling.

All because you played that Tony Hawk game and heard that one song?

All because I played that Tony Hawk game and heard that one song.

And that became an important part of my identity as, you know, a middle school kid, which we shouldn't ever be nostalgic for middle school.

But

it's this thing, this feeling that I get when I hear that music.

And being in a band and learning how to play the bass and doing that for the first time

in my life, you know, I unfortunately was in an a cappella group in college and did a lot of theater and other things.

How come it

took this much time for that to come out?

Nat tried to use the unicycle basketball thing against me.

He should have gone with a cappella.

I mean, that would have been the much stronger argument against me being cool.

What other skeletons you got?

Skeletons, yeah.

Yeah.

We don't have enough time to go through.

Just give me a couple minutes.

He was president of the juggling club.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

You ever do the devil sticks?

Devil sticks?

No, devil sticks were not my jam.

You ever get get into the Accisack circle?

Oh, yeah, that was high school for sure.

I feel like you didn't have to ask that.

His acapella group also did original compositions of like novelty songs about urinal etiquette.

Oh, yeah.

What was the name of your a cappella group?

The Fleet Street Singers, the Stanford Fleet Street Singers.

Why was it not called Urin here?

I mean, really, come on, you guys.

That song was called The Golden Rules.

Oh,

yeah.

Yeah, sorry.

Ska Capella?

How is it not called Ska Capella?

Oh, I'm sure there's a Ska Capella.

I'm sure there's

many Skacapellas.

I'm going to look it up right now.

Yeah.

I would go back into Acapella if there was a Ska Capella group near us.

Would you just consider starting your own Ska Capella group?

And then that's where you would get all of your Ska-related needs out.

Ugh, I don't know if I want to go back into the world of acapella.

So it sounds to me, Chris, like you got this bass in order to join this band, in order to have some fun with your friends and express yourself.

And for you,

the ultimate outcome would be you get to play a couple of your favorite ska songs with your pals.

And that's your dream for Shrek Secutioner, correct?

Yeah, that's right.

Right.

And Nat, I asked you this, but I don't really feel I was clear, I think.

Like, do you have aspirations for this band beyond hangout time with pals?

Like, do you think that maybe it'll go places you want to play out more?

Anything like that?

No, not particularly.

So your dream for the band is just keep Ska out of it.

Right.

Okay, I got you.

Do you have an art?

I'm trying to get a sense, you see, of how exactly diametrically opposed your artistic visions are, and they seem pretty diametrically opposed around this thing.

Chris seems to have one mission, which is to play Ska.

You seem to have one mission, which is to not play Ska.

And also for the band to presumably get better and also write some more original songs, but not no Ska, correct?

Right.

I think that that would be fun.

Yes.

Sometimes bands break up.

Is that what's happening here?

I don't think so.

I think that we're all, everyone in the band is also good friends.

And I think that we really appreciate that.

And I would rather continue to spend time with my friends

than

have full artistic artistic control and satisfaction.

Yeah.

It would make me really sad if the ruling was, well, Chris and Ryan and Ross just go play ska on your own.

Like that's that's not fun.

I don't I don't want to do that.

I want to make Nat play ska.

Gene, do you have any final questions before I go to hear my verdict?

Nope, just getting my puns together.

Okay.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to skank over to my chambers chambers

and we'll return in a moment with my verdict.

Editor Valerie, please put some skanking music in here as I skank on over to my chambers.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom with very high needs.

Chris and Nat,

I just want to know.

I really enjoy what you guys are doing, and I just want to know if it's possible that we come to some

sort of compromise or is it just impossible

you know that you get to keep playing music with your camscadres

and really get to a place with the band where you're all proud of your accomplishments?

Yes.

Do you feel like that can happen today?

I think so.

Like Nat said, I don't think the band is at any risk of breaking up regardless of which way the decision goes.

And

I I think we're willing to respect the judge's ruling wherever it comes down.

Yeah, I mean, I think that if a conflict like this, you know, tears the band into pieces, we'll just have to pick it up, pick it up.

I see what you have done there.

I heard that all the way in my chambers.

I'm only disappointed that you didn't didn't refer to it as a sconflict.

Thank you.

We'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lawrence.

I'm Caroline Roper, And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Guest Bailiff Gene Gray, we are taking a break from this case to talk about what we have going on.

Everyone's hearing about it, Gene.

They're hearing about it on social media.

They're hearing about it on emails that I'm spamming people with.

Everyone's talking or at least hearing about the big news.

The show is going on the road again.

That's right.

Judge John Hodgman is bringing live justice once again to several cities in this case, in the United States, particularly cities that are near to or accessible from San Francisco because we are doing the San Francisco Sketch Fest once again.

And it's going to be a huge amount of fun.

And then we decide, let's do some shows around there.

So we are going back to the Neptune Theater in Seattle.

Love that Neptune Theater.

You ever play the Neptune gene?

Quite possibly.

Basically, the stairs up to the green room are a ladder.

It's one of the steepest staircases I've ever been.

No, I would remember that.

Wildly dangerous behind the scenes and wildly fun on stage at the Neptune.

We are returning to Portland, Oregon as well, but a brand new venue for us.

Very excited about this Revolution Hall.

I've played this venue as a guest for other things.

This is an incredible venue.

I'm really excited that we're going to be there.

It's big, so I hope you come out and check us out there.

We are going for the very first time to Denver, Colorado at the Gothic Theater.

Get some cozy goth up there in Denver, Colorado.

And then, of course, we're also going to the Wheeler Theater in Port Townsend, Washington.

Why are we going to the little town of Port Townsend?

Because the mayor invited us, and I dared him to give me the key to the city or make a proclamation that it's Judge John Hodgman Day or something.

I don't remember what the dare is, but I know that mayor is going to make good.

We're going to have a great time in Port Townsend,

Washington.

Tickets are on sale now.

MaximumFun.org slash events for links and more information.

Maximumfun.org slash events for links and more information.

Gene, that's what's going on in my, in my neck of the future.

What's going on with Gene Gray?

For the first time ever, I'm trying to like slow down and be chill.

Wrapping up my book.

Your forthcoming memoir.

Yes.

Called In My Remaining Years.

I'm very excited about it.

Look for it from Flatiron Books.

Oh, look at you with the informations.

What a friend.

Look, I used to work in the book publishing industry, so I know that when people are thinking about buying a book, they first think about who's the publisher?

Yeah.

That's the first thing you check because they want to go to that publisher's website to buy the books that they want.

Flatiron Books, but the name of the book is My Remaining Years.

Forthcoming.

What else?

What else is going on?

I'll also be at Sketchfest the same time you're at Sketchfest.

We're going to be at Sketchfest.

We're going to be at Sketchfest together.

So I'm pretty excited about that.

What are you going to be doing at Sketchfest?

I think I'm doing Varietopia.

I believe I'm doing TED Talks, Fake TED Talks again, and on a few other shows, but I'll be there from, I believe, the 2nd to the 5th.

Of February.

Of February.

Oh,

I've got my online vintage and secondhand luxury item store on Instagram called B222NYC.

And I've got a lot of great new stuff coming for January and February.

Because I moved to New York this year, I left a lot of my stuff in Baltimore.

So I'll be able to go back and get my whole stash.

And it's clothes for everybody.

We run pricing from like 25 to like, listen, there's some pricey pieces on there, but is it really pricey if you're just trying to be fabulous?

No, it's not.

There is some beautiful stuff here for people who dress towards the feminine and for all people.

Yeah.

Would you say that's accurate?

Yeah.

We're going to get into some other pieces.

I really like a lovely vintage find.

The store is named after my mom because it was always her dream to

open

a little shop.

So I'm like, yeah, we should finally do that now.

So a lot of it is from her collection, like through the 80s and 90s and early 2000s.

And she had just impeccable taste.

B222NYC over at Instagram and maximumfund.org slash events for all those events and sfsketchfest.com for all those events.

And that's what's going on with us.

So let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Shrexecutioner,

I have heard the song.

I have heard the band.

And all I can say is, I prefer your early stuff.

Sorry.

You sold out.

No,

I like it.

I like the band.

I haven't heard any of your covers of the other songs.

I like the song Shrek Secutioner.

I appreciate that.

But I am coming to you, Nat, first and foremost.

And I'm going to a little bit hard with a warning.

Don't call your your friend a dork.

Your opening argument was quoting propaganda saying ska sucks.

You know what sucks?

Snobs.

Cool sucks.

Cred sucks.

Look, I'm not pro-ska here.

I fully acknowledge the sins of ska, and I am against friends calling friends dorks.

I am against using culture.

as a cudgel to separate the cool from the uncool.

I think you have good taste, Nat.

I think, you know what I mean?

And you're really funny.

So are you, Chris?

Don't worry about it.

You're funny in a college a cappella group kind of way.

Nat's got a different, more of a wry edge to him.

I like them both, is the point.

I like them both.

Neither is greater nor lesser.

One phrase that I remember the most, I happened probably about 10 or 11 years ago, I was out on the town with John Darnell of the Mountain Goats and John Flansberg of They Might Be Giants and Jonathan Colton of Jonathan Colton and me, John Hodgman.

It was all the Johns.

It was a John Fest.

And I don't remember who said it, but it's been something that we say to each other all the time.

It was a toast.

I believe it was Flansberg who raised a toast saying, good luck to all bands.

That's how I feel.

Good luck to all bands.

Let them do their thing.

So be careful.

Like, I don't mind you having very specific tastes.

People like what they like, of course.

That's the whole point.

And obviously, people dislike what they dislike.

And sometimes that's you can't get pushed off of that point.

That's fine.

But I don't like it when taste is used to make other people feel bad.

You like what you like.

I also made some jokes about

drummers having a quarter of a vote and the bassist gets to be pushed around.

And I apologize for that too.

Because this is, you know, Chris, you really found the crux or the scrux.

This is about the hard negotiations that go on when you're in a creative collaboration it's collaboration what did you say gene

it's collaboration it's collaboration

right okay i apologize it's collaboration that's right you know

it's hard it's hard to be in a band it's hard to work one-on-one like david rees and i made dick town together and it was hard to negotiate when someone felt strongly about one thing and someone felt strongly against it and as in any partnership including spousal and romantic partnerships, the hard part is that sometimes someone just has to get their way and the other person doesn't.

You know, compromise can only go so far.

Every now and then, you draw your line in the sand based on your own comfort level and your own desires about how you want to live your life.

And I think that those are hard things to do.

And there's really only one way to do it, which is to say, I really want to do this.

I really, I hear you, but I can't do it and still be comfortable.

And hopefully you can go on from there.

As much as I have warned Nat about being a snob,

he's still a human being

who deserves to feel comfortable.

And I think that it's clear that Ska is just not part of his aesthetic.

And I want you to be happy too, Chris.

But you know you have this thing going on with Ross where you're making bets with each other and he's smashing up smash mouth songs.

Like there's a whole dork faction of this band, and I say that respectfully.

There's a whole dork faction of this band that is you and Ross.

And I'm just saying, why not a side project?

Bands do this all the time.

Bands do this all the time.

There's a lot of sky you can play with one trumpet and one bass.

You should put out an ad wherever people put out ads these days.

I'm your grandfather.

put out an ad

in the back of the alternative weekly.

The Chicago Reader still exists, doesn't it?

Yes.

Saying, I need someone to play guitar.

There's one dude, one dude with a trumpet whose belly is full of Swedish fish plus frosted tips bass player need ska guitar player for side proj.

You've got time for it.

You'll be happy.

And it doesn't mean that the band is breaking up.

The nice thing about a band or a creative partnership is that you can go outside of the marriage all the time.

And it's important for people to do that, to do solo projects, to do side projects and everything else.

Shrek Secutioner is its own thing.

Like, I love the idea of you taking a ska song.

Maybe you'd have to do this one Superman from the Tony Hawk game and coming up with an arrangement that is anti-ska.

and presenting it to Nat.

But I think Nat still has the right to say, I'm sorry, my boundaries are clear.

I said no, ska.

There's ska DNA in this, and I don't want anything to do with it.

And that would be fine.

You bring it over to your side project.

Call your side project Frosted Tips or Unicycle Basketball League or something like that.

And then you can enjoy your Ska and then still have your friendship with Nat and everyone's okay.

So I'm finding in favor of Nat.

Don't call your friends dorks.

I mean, I know you're being playful, but still, be wary of this.

This is how feelings do get hurt.

You know, a lot of dorks just roll over and take it.

Some of us dorks, we just take it.

Chris wouldn't stand up for himself.

I had to stand up for him.

All that said, Nat, you're right.

Chris, you're wrong.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Don't you know it was wrong?

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

All right,

Chris.

And Nat,

before I ask you something, I just want to say that that's one of my favorite rulings so far.

I think the lesson of you can't do everything with all your friends, you know, not every friend is for everything,

is absolutely valid all the time, especially for bands.

And to keep your friendship remaining solid as a rock, I think tips and fish could be a great idea with Ross.

Tips and fish.

That's so good.

You know?

Fish and tips.

There you go.

Done.

Sold.

Genius.

You're very, very welcome.

How's everybody feeling?

Nat, I'll ask you first.

How do you feel about this ruling by the judge?

I feel great.

I think the judge was very fair in his ruling.

I do really appreciate the point that I should be nicer to Chris.

He is a good friend.

And I do really appreciate that.

And I just really hope that, you know, any rulings that the judge makes are held up on scapeal.

Chris, how are you feeling?

I'm going to to have to find the world's smallest sad trombone to play for myself.

But I think Fish and Tips is going to have a really great run.

I think the judge's ruling was wise.

And

yeah, I'm feeling okay.

Well, thanks to you both for being on the podcast.

We learned a lot.

And

yeah,

I hope you guys move forwards as band members, as friends, and

as dorky people.

Yeah, we'll keep it sclassy.

Oh, boy.

Sorry.

Thank you for having us.

Okay, that is another case in the books.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Twitter user Cittagena Tree.

Sure.

Sitting in a underscore tree.

Sitting in a tree?

I like Cittagena Tree, like Orangina.

Orangina.

Cittagina Tree.

For naming this week's episode, filing for skankruptcy.

But if you said it with an angst accent, it would be skunkrupsy.

Skankruprups.

Filing for skunkrupsy.

That's very Krampus-y.

We'll talk about Krampus.

If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities.

Bailiff Jesse is at Jesse Thorne and I am at Hodgman.

While you're there, you can also hashtag judgejohnhodgman related tweets at JJ H O.

But Gene Gray, what are your social media handles?

And they're changing, aren't they?

They're changing.

Currently, it is Instagram at GenieGrigio, but that account will self-destruct on January 1st.

Whoa, you're starting all over.

Starting over from scratch.

I love it.

Meanwhile, speaking of Instagram, evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there and you can join the conversation there's some nice there's some nice chat in the comments over there at the judge john hodgman instagram account but if you don't use instagram you can always join the conversation over at the maximum fun subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com you know one thing we never say in these in these credits gene or we stop saying for some reason go go ahead and tell another person about this podcast go ahead and rate and review it wherever you listen to it it really helps don't gatekeep share don't gatekeep share

this episode was recorded by jason rose at Tightrope Recording in Chicago.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmor.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

Now, Swift Justice, will you please read the Swift Justice question to me, Jean?

Yes.

Terry asks, are inside out and outside in

the same thing?

I say yes, but my friend says no.

You know what Terry's last name is?

No.

Claude.

I was kind of, damn it.

We should have guessed you'd have to guess

you're the you're you're the garment expert gene what do you think is inside out and outside in the same thing

no no no

no terry what are you what are you doing well maybe it's because

well i feel like if if your name is terry cloth you might have strong uh feelings about this and you're like no it's the same thing but you know what with a terry cloth no it's absolutely not both sides different yeah they're i mean that i think that terry here's my ruling if you're annoying people in your life with your semantic pedantics for no reason other than to make yourself feel smart stop it you're gonna end up on a podcast and get lightly yelled at by a fake judge and his friend gene gene i'm just proud that in 2022 um we have a sentient uh terry cloth i feel like that's where we're headed and uh you know it's got opinions so

good good for you terry good for you good for you everyone thank you very much for following us for another year of the judge john hodgman podcast

happy holiday to those who observe and if you don't observe the holidays great

have an incredibly restful winter do whatever makes you happy that's my that's my ho ho ho for you gene you know what makes me happy what sharing some time with my friend gene gray oh i love sharing time with you it also makes me happy.

I hope to see you as soon as possible in the new year and in what remains of this year.

Yeah.

So until then, see you next time.

No, we never see anyone on a podcast.

Talk to you next time on the judge.

Talk to you next year.

No.

Talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That's how you end it.

Nailed it.

Thank you.

Goodbye.

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