Sing the Wall Song

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

We're in chambers this week to clear the docket.

And with me, as always, is the world's greatest father of two, Judge John Hodgman.

I wish I could only live up to that barbecue apron, but that is, I'm just

doing the best I can, like any other parent.

And, Jesse, this is not a regular docket, is it?

This is a very special docket.

We're back in juvenile court.

Is that the sound of juvenile court?

That's the sound that I was asked to make for Dick Wolfe's Law and Order juvenile court spin-off.

Got it.

That did not get made.

And it was not because it was maybe an unseemly topic.

for television because there's nothing too unseemly.

It's like they said, why don't we get John Hodgman to make that sound instead of having the regular synthesizer or whatever do it?

And they hired me to do it.

And it was so terrible that they canceled the show.

Like many working actors lost good paying SAG jobs, and everyone wrote a letter to the producer saying,'Can't you just re-record it?' You already have the sound on file.

They said,'No,

John Hodgman just ruined it and ruined the vibe.' Anyway, wow, words.

My son just brought himself onto the show unbidden, so I'm going to introduce him.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what, what, what is this?

An episode of The Doughboys?

All right.

No, this is the Judge John Hodgman Juvenile Court Edition.

And joining me in the studio here at Maximum Fun is my son, Oscar, age eight.

Nine.

Nine, age nine.

World's best dad of three.

Honestly, Jesse Thorne, Oscar, I'm going to say this now in case you don't know it.

Your dad is a terrific dad.

Thank you, John.

Did you know that I'm John Hodgman's dad?

That's right, Oscar.

It's true.

Oscar Thorne is here with me, my nine-year-old son.

He's back on the podcast.

He's been very excited to come back.

He's back on that pod.

Oscar Thorne, friend of the court, hello.

How are you?

Good.

What did you do today before this?

Nothing.

Okay.

Nothing.

You played Fortnite with your sibling.

I did.

The perfect conversation starter finally fails.

That's because the wisdom of a child cannot be tricked, fooled.

It cannot be buttered up.

It cannot be talked down to.

What does that mean?

Nor can it be buttered up to.

I do not know what that means.

It means that you have a natural wisdom and you see through my bull feces.

What are you saying?

When John is full of baloney, you can tell.

Okay.

Yeah.

What I'm saying is you're here to cut through the baloney.

We're going to hear a number of cases that have been submitted mostly by children, mostly against their parents.

I'm excited.

Yes.

I think we know how you will rule.

And some have been submitted by parents against their own children.

And in a court of law, normally in this fake court of law, I decide who's right or who's wrong.

But in this case, these kids deserve a jury of their peers.

And even though you are peerless, you shall have the final ruling.

Is that fair enough?

I have the power.

You have the power, exactly.

So let's get into it.

Here's a case from Alec in Los Angeles.

My father owns one of Stephen Hawking's time traveler party invitations.

Oh boy, oh boy.

You know Stephen Hawking, you're a big Stephen Hawking fan, Oscar?

I have no idea who that person is at all.

Good.

Let me tell you, Stephen Hawking was a very famous,

what was he, famous?

I mean, smarty pants, but was he an astrophysicist?

A theoretical physicist?

Both, a little of each.

He was an incredibly smart person who thought about space and time.

He was the man behind the legendary film line, as they approach the horizon of the black hole, they are turned into spaghetti.

What is that?

That's from the brief history of time,

the Errol Morris movie

of Hawking's famous book.

They are turned into spaghetti.

And he spoke with the aid of a machine.

So he sounded like a computer.

And he was a theoretical physicist and cosmologist.

He studied the cosmos, all of the stuff that makes up space and time.

And he was very interested in time travel.

Are you interested in time travel?

Whatever I think about it, it twists up my brain.

Yes, exactly.

So get ready to get your brain twisted.

Because Stephen Hawking, a bit of a pip, a bit of a prankster, he decided that if time travel were real, he could hold a cocktail party for time travelers.

from the future and then hold the cocktail party and then send out invitations the next day the theory being that the time travels from the future would eventually get those invitations and travel back in time to the party that happened before he even sent out the invitation my god

or whatever right

wait that's so confus

so he had the party and then the next day he sent out invitations because if you're in the future and you can travel back in time you'd get the invitation It would be no problem to go to the party because you would just travel back in time to go to it.

So guess how many people showed up to the party?

Probably like

a lot.

From the future?

No one from the future came to the party.

It was just Stephen Hawking by himself and a sign saying...

Did he actually do it?

Yeah, he did it.

He had the party.

He put up a sign saying, welcome time travelers.

And I think he put out some hors d'oeuvres, some little snacks, some little nibbles, and maybe some sparkling cider.

I don't know.

Maybe a big bottle of Johnny Walker red.

I don't know.

You don't know.

The point is, no one showed up, and Stephen Hawking had a good computerized chuckle to himself because he showed all of us who believe in time travel that we're full of poop.

Yeah, so let's get to the case, Oscar.

My father collects stuff like this.

He sees this invitation as a historical artifact.

I want to destroy it.

Why?

Well, I believe the internet will cease to exist in the next century, so there will be no digital record of the invitations.

If there are no digital invitations and the physical invitations are also destroyed, it could explain why no one showed up at Hawking's party.

My father wants to keep his treasure.

By destroying the invitation, I wish to light a spark of hope that there is still a possibility, even if it is only a sliver, that time travel is possible.

possible.

Oh, wow, this got very confusing.

You know what?

Let's just go with,

yeah, let's destroy it.

I think you've made Alec a very happy person.

Look, Alec is 12 years old.

Some people like to write long letters to the court of Judge John Hodgwan.

I love it.

We had to edit a little bit for space here, but one of Alex's great sentences was this one.

You ready for this great sentence, Oscar?

Yes.

This is Alec writing, the kid who's going to destroy this invitation.

Okay.

I am but a 12-year-old, but I do grasp the concepts of time travel.

Alec's theory is that if he destroys every physical invitation and the internet ceases to exist and there's no record of this party ever happening, then that would explain why no future time travelers ever got the invitation.

And that's why Stephen Hawking was stood up.

Okay, that makes sense now.

You want him to destroy it then?

Yes, I like destruction.

Just for the sake of destruction.

You don't care about the time travel part.

Um, you know, I feel like there's a high possibility that this will go wrong and

reality will collapse, but that's fine.

Okay.

Plus, I don't believe in any of this time travel stuff, so let's just choose one or the other and I choose destruction.

All right, fair enough.

Uh, name the method of destruction.

This is a paper invitation, I presume, that his dad got off of eBay or something.

Do do they own a wrecking ball?

Would a wrecking ball destroy a paper invitation?

Oh, that's true.

Maybe you can use your hands.

Just tear it up.

The wrecking balls of the body.

And then you can

just destroy it, throw it in the trash can, throw the trash can out the window, and then melt the trash can.

What do you think, John?

What do I think?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, I forgot.

I forgot.

I was just having a good time with my friend, the my friend's the thorns.

Um,

because Because I'll tell you what I think, John.

Yes.

My son's fealty to destruction is second only to my fealty to stuff.

As the proprietor of a vintage store, I could not, in good conscience, destroy something as cool as a time travel party invitation from Stephen Hawking.

I mean, here's the thing.

Alec has hope that time travel may be developed.

Stephen Hawking, kind of a stick in the mud on this point, destroyed his hope to a certain degree by setting up the stunt of a dud of a party in order to cast doubt upon the idea of time travel from the future to the present.

Hmm, this is confusing.

I know, it's very confusing.

This is a mean thing to do.

This invitation is a memento of a kind of a mean-spirited prank, but it is part of history.

I mean, what I would say to Alec is this:

your dad loves this thing.

He loves his little piece of paper.

It is a part of history.

Stephen Stephen Hawking was an incredibly important and influential thinker

who also, I think, had a sense of humor.

And I appreciate that.

And

you kind of don't want to destroy evidence that this person lived.

I would suggest that it's possible that you could acknowledge that

another solution for why no time travelers showed up at this party, which is simply that it was a dumb party.

Yeah, nobody wanted to hang out with old Stephen Hawking.

You probably would just talk about theoretical physics and what happens when you approach the event horizon of the black hole the whole time.

You're like, hey, how about if dinner turned into spaghetti?

Right.

I'm getting a little hungrier.

If I'm he who remains at the end of time, Kang the Conqueror himself, and Alex's dad's physical invitation finally finds its way to me.

I mean, I'd look at this thing.

It's like, you know, I get a million invitations.

I got a million things to do.

Time travel could be expensive.

It could be onerous.

Like, I turned down an invitation to go to the Bell House to see some of my favorite comedians and friends because it's below 50 degrees and seven blocks away.

There are a lot of reasons why no one would show up at this thing.

You don't have to destroy this physical invitation.

And what's more, you don't have to destroy this physical invitation because

there's still invitations out there.

Unless it becomes a quest, Alec, unless you become like

Liam Neeson scouring all of Europe for all of ill doers, obsessed with finding these invitations and destroying them, this one one act of wanton destruction will bring you no justice and will bring Oscar only delight.

That said, Oscar, Oscar is the jury of the peers in this case.

So the ruling stands.

Alec, you have the right to destroy this thing.

But I would just say, think again.

You might want to remember your father in the future.

You are a time traveler.

You're traveling into the future.

You might want to look back on this little thing that maybe your father had and think, geez, my dad sure was weird.

Here's something from Maude in Ottawa, Ontario.

My name is Maude.

I'm in grade four.

When my mom and dad pick me up from after-school care, they insist on singing out loud while walking down the street.

Often annoying songs like Lucky Ducks from the Bob Spurgers movie.

Please make them stop.

Oscar, you ever walk down the street with your dad and he and he sings a song out loud no no

well this is what we got we got maud's parents to uh to sing the song that drives maud up a tree

this is what it sounds like when your parents sing out loud when you're walking to school some lucky ducks get all the luck but that's not us unlucky schmucks They didn't really sing a lot of that song, did they, Jesse?

No.

How would you feel if you were being walked down the streets of Ontario, Canada, to your grade four class, and Jesse Thorne, your father, was singing that song?

I mean,

I wish they said why the parents are doing that.

So I have more of a reason to not just say

the kid gets to not

have their parents do that.

You are a model of judicial restraint.

Is there any more evidence that we can offer Oscar and maybe another case?

Isn't there, didn't we get another letter similar to this?

Yeah, we also had one from Gertie, who is seven, and Gertie's dad sings while taking her to school.

And Gertie says, he doesn't sing real songs.

He sings about the things he sees like he is Weird Al.

Not sure.

Is that a fair characterization of the artistry of Weird Al?

Look, let's just say the kid doesn't have to have their parents singing while walking because that's just strange.

Well, before we just rule against parents singing out loud and embarrassing their kids, let me put this thought experiment to you.

Here comes another brain twister.

Oh no.

Oscar.

What?

Do you like making sounds with your mouth?

Yes.

So do I.

Here's one that I like to make.

That one's horrid.

Horrid and bad.

Horrid and bad.

Let me hear a good one.

I'm not picking that up exactly.

Can you get closer on the mic?

Now, when you make mouth sounds, does your dad like it?

Well, usually I don't do it near my dad.

Oh, okay.

You just do it on your own.

I'm always upstairs playing a video game.

Making mouth sounds.

So you're not making mouth sounds walking down the street embarrassing your dad.

It's just parents are making mouth sounds and the songs in the form of songs making their kids feel embarrassed oscar do i ever sing an embarrassing song no do i make embarrassing jokes yes like what like

pouring soda on my head

oh no

did i really pour soda on your head you haven't what do you mean you've poured bubble water on my head before just just bubble water not like not like soda pop not like a coke yeah i know just wet not sticky it's yeah that's really funny though and it's wet yeah

so that's just an example of me being a really funny dad i have my i have my answer

already it is that no more

annoying parents

No more annoying.

I wish I could make that ruling.

Kids rule, parents drool.

That's Oscar's ruling.

I wish I could make that ruling.

You know, the problem is, if I really ruled on no more annoying parents, we'd never have another episode of Judge John Ojman again.

The truth is, parents will annoy you whether you're age seven or in grade four in Ottawa, Ontario.

That annoys me because he, something that's weird about dad is because he gets paid for making bad jokes.

God, what am I, a chestnut?

Because I'm getting roasted right now.

Oscar, you got to stay off the Reddit, my friend.

Jesse, you asked me my opinion at one point.

Now I'll ask you your opinion.

What do you think about parents singing out loud against their own children's objections, taking them to school?

I just think it's a beautiful thing for parents and children to share.

The objections, I mean.

To share the objections?

I don't understand.

Yeah,

the parents are giving the children an opportunity to sigh, whine, and complain about them while engaging in a beautiful, positive activity, which is singing songs from the very funny Bob Spurgers movie, specifically the song that all the evil Carneys sing at their Carney camp.

Semi-evil.

Look, there's character development among the Carneys.

I'm not going to, no spoilers for the Bob Spurgers movie here.

I can't abide by the ruling no more annoying parents.

Parents are always going to be a little bit annoying in different ways, at different phases of your life, children.

And I think that probably Maude and Gertie's respective dads, and why is it always dads?

Well, I guess it's mom and dad in Maud's case.

They sing to express their joy at having a child to walk to school.

They think it's fun for everybody, but.

So they sing the duck song.

That's right.

They sing the duck song, Lucky Ducks.

Why that song?

I guess it's because it's catchy and fun to sing for them.

Can't they sing the wall song about the wall?

Which song?

The wall song.

Was there a song about the wall in the Bobs Burgers movie?

No.

I just made it up off the top of my head.

Oh, I guess Oscar is just pulling a weird owl and singing songs about whatever he sees.

There's a wall there.

That is the definition of weird owls career.

The wall song.

Yeah, the wall song.

The wall song.

Oscar, you and I went to see the Bobs Burgers movie.

Do you remember anything about about it?

I remember there was a wall song.

I don't know.

It's settled law that if it's not fun for everyone, it's not fun at all.

And it's not fun for Maude or for Gertie.

I think that they'll look back with sadness when they tell their parents to shut up and stop singing the same way I think Alec will look back in sadness if he burns that invitation.

But I will caution the parents to choose their moments.

Just sing the wall song and you'll be fine.

Sing the wall song and you'll be fine.

Exactly.

Okay.

Sing the wall song.

Sing it.

That sounds fair.

I mean, there's no way.

The wall song's the best song.

There's no, here's the thing, Maude and Gertie.

There's no way for me or, or God, or whatever to ever make parents less annoying than they are.

But most of the time, one hopes they're annoying because they love you and they have errors of judgment.

Yeah, but...

It would make them a little less annoying if they just sing the wall song.

Yeah, and I'm not going to rule against singing ever.

That's like ruling against smiling or laughing.

They're going to find some way to embarrass you.

Better stick with the devil you know in the form of these songs.

The wall song.

The wall song.

Sing the wall song.

Parents, leave those kids alone.

Just sing the wall song.

The wall song.

Sing it.

Sing it.

Sing a wall song.

Jesse, I think we're going to take a quick break.

We're going to take a quick break, hear from this week's partners.

We'll be back with more cases to clear from the docket on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Oh, and here's a tease.

Also, a new segment that I just invented called More Mouth Sounds.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

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Just go to maximumfund.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This week, we're dispensing juvenile justice with our special guest, age eight or nine or so, Oscar Thorne.

Oh,

welcome back, Oscar.

It's too bad we don't have any cases about fish.

That's Oscar's greatest interest right now.

Yes.

How many fish do you have in your tank right now, Os?

Eight.

What kinds are they?

Guppies and Tetras.

Guppies and Tetras.

And what are their names again?

Try to remember.

Remember one's name, Technoblade, one's name,

Kyle, one's name, Gregory.

Technoblade, Kyle, Gregory.

And then there's Nia Nea, and then I haven't,

and then one of them is called Eater.

And then the last one I have not named yet because I keep forgetting because I'm lazy.

Yeah, I don't think you are.

A good name is

hard to come by.

Maybe we'll have come up with one by the end of this case.

Yes, I just spent all my brain cells trying to remember my fish's names.

Here's a case from Sasha from San Antonio, Texas.

My nine-year-old son is a fan of Kids Bop.

They're a kids' singing group who cover pop songs editing out any bad language.

Oscar, are you familiar with Kids Bop?

I've heard of Kids Bop.

They did a nightmare on my street thing,

but they destroyed the entire purpose of it since it's a horror song.

It was funny.

They sweetened it up.

The famous DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince song, A Nightmare on My Street.

I think a good theme song for this week's episode of Judge Sean Hodgman would be Parents Just Don't Understand.

That's true.

They really don't.

Speaking of the edgy rap oeuvre of DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince.

There's nothing to hate about DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince.

They're great.

Okay, here's the rest here.

Now my son has been listening to the original versions, especially Driver's License by Olivia Rodrigo.

He likes to sing along to this song, including the F-word in the chorus.

I say that's inappropriate for a nine-year-old.

He says it's okay when it's part of a song.

He also says that when we drove to Austin to see Kids Bop Live, I made him listen to Max Fun podcasts that had F-bombs in them.

Does he have a case?

Hmm.

Oscar, are you familiar with the F-word?

I am.

All right.

Because my dad yells it a lot.

when he's mad.

I don't yell it that much.

Once in a while.

Whenever you're mad, you just scream it.

No, very,

very rarely.

No, that is a lie.

Trust me.

Yeah, Bailiff Jesse Thorne, shut your F-hole.

I heard you say the F-word before we even started recording.

It's okay.

We're grown-ups.

We can swear.

What's the policy in the Thornhouse?

about swearing at the age of nine.

In my house, we are not vehemently anti-swearing, but we do ask the kids to remember that there are people who could feel bad if they swore and that there are contexts where it's appropriate to swear and ones where it isn't.

That's right.

I used to take my kids when they were little to Shopson's general store, which is a lunch counter owned and operated by the now late Kenny Shopson, one of the most notoriously foul-mouthed people in the world.

And I would cringe a little bit when he would go on a long, long,

very,

very

F-bomb-laden tirade.

And then I realized they're going to learn it somehow.

They might as well learn from the best.

He was one of the best F-bombers in the biz.

Almost as good as Olivia Rodrigo, I guess.

What do you think?

Should this kid be singing the F-bomb, singing along to a song with the F-bomb in it?

Yes or no, Oscar?

I mean,

I'd say I just feel like it's...

It would make sense.

Do you ever notice swear words in songs that I'm listening to in the car?

Yes.

Especially rap.

Yeah, I do listen to some rap songs with swears in them.

Yes.

You're never going to hear that with DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince.

It's true.

They keep it clean.

They keep it clean.

Except for the horror themes.

Yeah, well, clean up the horror themes, obviously.

A nightmare on my street.

In any case,

I am inclined to agree with Oscar.

You opened the door, Sasha, with these foul-mouthed Max Fun podcasts.

I can't imagine.

Certainly not listening to Judge Judge John Hodgman.

So I admit I am prejudiced against you, Sasha, but I will not recuse.

I'm frankly terrified that Sasha heard Jordan Jesse Go.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, you've set a precedent in your own car of listening to things with F-bombs in them.

It would be pretty funny if you were singing along or mouthing along to whole episodes of Jordan Jesse Go that you had memorized, Sasha.

That would be incredible.

Oscar, have you ever heard an episode of Jordan Jesse Go?

No.

Okay, that's for the best.

Why?

Because it's just for the best for everyone,

but especially people who shouldn't hear adult themes.

But I would say that, you know, not only have you opened the door by playing those bad word podcasts, but also, you know, Kids Bop,

you heard

Mr.

Oscar Thorne, his opinion on Kids Bop is they took the best part out of a perfectly good song, Nightmare on My Street.

They took out the horror out of it, right?

Yeah, and it was a horror song, and it was actually pretty funny because there was no horror in it because you had to get rid of all the horror.

And it was funny.

Look, there are lots of amazing songs out there for both kids and adults that don't have bad words in them.

Listen to those.

You clean.

Listen, Zendaya, I know you're probably listening to this podcast.

Love your work.

I know that you were in Kids Pop.

I learned that when I, when I Wikipedia, Kids Bop.

Please don't get upset when I say Kids Pop is evil.

I just, I haven't even listened to it.

It's like, don't take the thing that makes it a thing out of the thing.

Yes.

Right?

That's what I'm saying.

That's what you're saying.

Don't take the thing that makes it a thing out of the thing.

All you're going to do, Sasha, is, is, is,

birth in your child's imagination a thirst and a hunger for the real thing.

Olivia Rodrigo saying, f there.

You can bleep that out.

I don't mind saying it in front of you, Osir, because I know that your dad says it all the time.

I don't say it all the time.

Just once in a while when somebody.

What do you mean once in a while?

Once a month, maybe.

I did do it yesterday.

I did it yesterday.

And he probably also says caca and poo-poo too is my turn.

I would never.

I would never.

If it's playing in the car, you can sing it along.

Figuring out how to teach kids about when and when it is not appropriate, both in their age and in the context in which they are moving through the world to say swear words is an important job of being a parent.

And hypocritically saying, F-word for me, not for thee,

simply because it's a podcast, forget it, Sasha.

You're out of line.

I find in favor of Sasha's child.

Here's something from Creighton in Silverton, Oregon.

We have four cats.

Five, if you include Lady Bear, who lives in the attic and hates me.

I think five is plenty.

My My eight-year-old daughter wants more.

She says there's no maximum number of cats.

That's true.

They sleep all day, and 13 could fit on the couch alone.

She has calculated this.

Oh, that's amazing.

She says if the cat's litter is changed regularly, there is no difference between 3 and 30.

Who's right?

Honestly.

Yeah, honestly.

As long as as you know that they're just going to sleep a lot, they do play, but they sleep a lot.

And that is the reason that she's right, because

they sleep, and as long as you're taking care of them,

like

I wouldn't say this with fish, because with fish, like it's like in a tank, but like

you have a house with like pets like that.

So

um, it it makes sense.

Yeah, but if you got 13 cats on the couch where are you gonna sit you're gonna sit on the floor like the cats used to whoa

the cats are in charge now

oscar we have one dog how many dogs do you think we could have in our house before it would be too many i mean

i feel like dogs are different from cats because dogs like when i see um our dog sissy sitting down looking straight at me I know she wants pets, but what I don't want is I don't want 50 dogs all staring at me with puppy eyes wanting me to pet them.

So it's the fact that cats don't necessarily like people that means you can have an infinite number of cats in your home.

Yes, and that's also why we don't have a cat.

If you had an infinite number of cats and an infinite number of microphones, eventually one of them would release the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Just

facts.

I can't imagine if we got more dogs that they would all be as desperate to get petted as sissy, unless it was a bunch of chihuahuas.

If it was a bunch of chihuahuas,

we might end up with more sissies.

So you're saying you can't have too many fish in a tank because a tank is an enclosed space and that the fish wouldn't be comfortable.

Right.

And too many, you can't have too many dogs.

Because dogs stare at you.

Because dogs stare at you and need your attention.

Whereas cats are.

Cats just like sleeping.

They're just a bunch of sociopaths who want nothing to do with you anyway.

You might as well house as many of them as possible.

I'm going to say this, though,

to Creighton,

Creighton's daughter.

Maybe you don't notice that cats do more than just sleep.

I know that you are aware that they poop and pee.

The only time I've ever

seen a cat, it was sitting in a chair doing nothing.

That is the only time I've seen a cat in person sitting on a chair doing nothing.

What about walking down the street?

You've seen tons of cats walking down the street.

You've only seen a cat in a chair one time.

This reminds me, you know that novel, Oscar, 100 Years of Solitude?

Of course you do.

Many years later, as he faced the firing squad, Colonel Aurelio Bundia remembered the time his father took him into a room to see a cat in a chair.

It's a good joke for people who like Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

That was off the dome, too, by the way, Jesse.

I didn't need to look that up.

I remember that opening line.

It's a good one.

Multiple tenses.

That's a time-traveling one.

Many years later, as he faced firefights, he remembered.

Never mind.

Let's move on.

I'm going to say this.

I hate to disagree with you, Oscar.

But as the owner of one cat, I know how much that cat not only poops and pees,

I also know that cat is too dumb to pee in the same place twice.

And I also know that cat pukes a lot, too, throws up.

I I love that cat so much.

But if I had two or three or four of them, all I'm saying is there's probably a reason Lady Bear is up in the attic because Lady Bear wants to be out of there.

Lady Bear does not want to be around those other cats or those humans.

I think there's a limit to the amount of cats that you can have.

There is definitely a maximum.

And I would say four

with one in the attic is about where it tops off.

Unless you're Ernest Hemingway and you're living in Key West and they have free access to the outdoors.

But

enclosed in one tank.

Oh, by the way, don't keep your cats in tanks.

So

I rule in favor of Creighton.

And Creighton's eight-year-old daughter.

You know, when you have a house of your own, you can get as many cats as you want.

But I think the two of you should sit down and

watch Gray Gardens together this weekend and you'll decide.

You'll see what I'm talking about.

Let's take a quick break when we come back.

A terrifying interpretation of of a children's book.

Cliffhanger Time.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, Me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from the docket.

Let's talk about what we've got coming up.

Jesse Thornton, I'm thrilled, thrilled to say

that knocking all pieces of wood, including my own wooden skull,

We're getting back out there in the world.

As I've mentioned before, Monty Belmonte and I are doing our Hodgmonte holiday spectacular with special guests Jonathan Colton and Gene Gray at the Shea Theater in Turner's Falls, Massachusetts.

That's December 17th.

It's coming right up there.

Just Google Hodgemonte and it'll take you right to where you need to go to get those tickets.

H-O-D-G-M-O-N-T-E.

But as exciting as that, San Francisco Sketch Fest tickets are on sale.

That's right.

We're going back to Sketchfest, San Francisco in person.

Judge John Hodgman live at the Sydney Goldstein Theater.

Ooh, beautiful theater.

February 4th at 7.30 p.m.

And we obviously will need your cases, your disputes for that show in San Francisco.

If you're in San Francisco or the Bay Area and you'd like us to consider your dispute for possible adjudication on stage, submit them now, please, at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

Just let us know in the subject line or anywhere in the email that you're going to be at the live show and you'd like us to consider your dispute for Judge Sean Hodgman live at Sketchfest.

Get your tickets now.

SFsketchfest.com.

And hey, John,

that same day that you're going to be doing Hodge Monty, December 17th, out on the East Coast, I'm going to be out here on the West Coast in Southern California at the Pasadena Vintage Flea Market, which is a really cool flea market.

I did it two months ago.

A bunch of Judge John Hodgman people came out and said hi.

It was really nice to meet people, but it's going to be the perfect place to get your last-minute holiday gifts.

It's not just me.

It will be dozens and dozens of vendors.

Got a good buddy named John Miner who's going to be selling some great records.

I saw all kinds of great stuff.

There was a woman who brought

a fully restored 50s pickup truck full of flowers.

I thought that was pretty great.

But yeah, come out, say hi to me, and say hi to my tiny Japanese van at the South Pasadena Vintage Flea Market.

And look, I'm not going to say that you have to bring me honey from your backyard, but I will say that longtime Max Fonster Cruftbox did bring me honey from his backyard.

So I'm going to need you to, if you don't do that,

just look around the house and see what artisanal products you have to bring me.

Whatever it is, I'll accept it, you know, at the end of the day.

Homemade kombucha?

Sure.

Yeah, sure.

Why not?

Bring the booch

December 17th.

And if you're not in Southern California, of course, go to putthisonshop.com and do your holiday shopping.

It's getting up on the last minute, but we, man, we got some great treasures.

So please do that.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're clearing the docket and we're talking juvenile justice with our guest judge, Oscar Thorne.

Hello.

Hello.

Hello.

Great job resetting yourself, Oscar.

That's fantastic.

For people just joining the podcast, this is the sound of Oscar's voice.

Hello.

All right, let's continue on.

Okay, thank you.

It's good to have you here, Oscar, to keep things moving along seriously.

If I remember correctly, this is a case that comes from Australia.

Is that right, Jesse?

The Antipodes, something from Joel.

My 10-year-old daughter, Zoe, and I have a banana dispute.

She says, banana bread and banana cake are the same because their ingredients are identical.

I say they're different.

Banana cake is cakey.

Banana bread is dense.

It can be toasted and spread with butter, like bread.

Who's right?

Oscar, do you like banana bread?

I don't, I've never had, I think, have I had banana bread before?

I think you would remember.

It's like, um, it tastes like garbage.

Okay.

So you would probably remember if you had it because you have to, you, you make banana bread with bananas that have gone bad.

It is a way to not, not gone bad, but they've gotten a little brown and mushy.

And you make banana bread with it in order to extend the life of the banana that you probably should not have bought in the first place.

I don't mean to, I don't mean to influence your decision here, but I'm just, I just wondered if you had an opinion on banana bread.

Some people do.

I definitely do have an opinion on banana bread.

It's garbage.

Do you have an opinion on banana cake?

Judge Osman, you got to be careful because one time, I think on this podcast, maybe on Jordan Jesse Go, I describe banana bread as garbage bread because it is bread made from the literal garbage in your home.

The bananas that are too old to eat,

which, I mean, to be fair, I do throw in my freezer and say for breakfast.

It's recycling.

It is recycling.

But it's horrible recycling.

That doesn't make sense.

And it's a horrible decision.

And I don't know who invented banana bread, but they made a big mistake.

Yeah, it's pretty gross, especially when it has like walnuts in it.

I don't think you said it on this podcast.

I'm sorry you didn't.

You must have said it on Jordan Jesse Go, and you must have said, it's f ⁇ ing garbage bread.

I don't think I have ever touched a third rail as electrified as banana bread.

Honestly, it's possible that like Linda Holmes swatted me.

I know people love banana bread.

And you can love what you love.

You can like what you like.

I think it tastes like garbage.

And I know, as my friend Bailiff Jesse Thorne says,

it's made from garbage.

It's a classic example of a category of food to which I am opposed that also includes most muffins, which is things that have all of the negative health effects of desserts, but are not actually desserts.

Like,

just eat something good.

Right.

Just eat something.

If you want to have a sweet treat, have a good one.

Have, for example, some banana cake.

Sounds nice.

I love banana pudding.

Banana pudding.

Putting.

Banana pudding with nila wafers?

Give me it.

Num, nom, num.

I've had different kinds of pudding, but I don't know if I've had banana pudding properly.

I think we've had banana pudding together before, yeah.

Yeah.

Oscar, did I ever tell you that I grew up in a town called Brookline, Massachusetts?

I remember you telling me that, but I forgot it.

Did I ever tell you that I used to work at the movie theater,

the old-timey movie theater that showed old-timey movies?

And

right next door to the movie movie theater had been a coffee place,

a fancy coffee place called The Coffee Connection.

And both my very good friend Jay

and

the person who is now my wife, and a whole human being in her own right, also worked there.

We all used to hang around, but then the coffee place went out of business.

You know what

replaced it?

What?

A pudding parlor.

Not an ice cream store.

A pudding parlor.

What's a pudding parlor?

You would walk in.

It was like a gourmet ice cream store.

But

instead of having a list of like, you know, sweet cream, Rocky Road, whatever, they had all these different puddings, different flavors of pudding.

Sounds like the name of a private club for adults.

It was not.

Well, it wasn't called the pudding parlor.

Of course, you know what it was called.

This is a true story.

Pudding on the Ritz?

Pudding it first.

Pudding on the Ritz would have been better.

Pudding it first.

I think it lasted seven months.

I had one pudding from there.

And I probably would have ordered banana pudding because here's the thing.

I don't have a sweet tooth, but I do like the taste of banana desserts.

I like a banana pudding with vanilla wafers.

I like bananas foster.

Do you know what a bananas foster is, Oscar?

Nope.

They take bananas and they set them on fire.

They pour brandy over them and they set it on fire.

Wow, that is, you're lying.

I'm not lying, sir.

I am not lying.

I would not lie.

I'll say this for banana bread.

Like bananas foster, it improves a lot.

I honestly forgot what the case was.

We're just talking about how garbage banana bread is.

Yeah.

I mean, that's what this show is.

Oh, okay.

Well, that's a good point, Oscar.

Here's the case.

Are banana bread and banana cake the same thing?

That's what this Australian's daughter says.

Now, I had never heard of banana cake, so Joel from Melbourne, Australia sent me a link to a recipe recipe for banana cake.

Can Oscar see this?

Yep.

Ooh.

Ooh.

Banana.

Cake.

Oscar, how would you describe that banana cake?

So it's like

a

flat brown plate-looking thing

with like cream on top of it, and then another weird plate thing with cream on top of it.

Yeah.

And then more cream on top of that with bananas on it.

Yeah, and the brown plate things, that's the cake, right?

That's some cake.

So there's layers of cake, layers of cream, and there's banana slices in the layers of cream.

Before we go to the other link that Joel sent, Oscar, that thing we were just looking at, if I handed that to you and said, would you like a slice of this bread, would you think, what would you think of me?

I would think you were just being an idiot.

Exactly so.

Just like my dad is at all times of day.

Okay.

The point is, it looks like a cake.

Now, let's take a look at this banana bread.

It looks, no, it looks like a weird pancake, kind of.

It looks like a layer cake.

A layer cake.

Okay.

Let's take a look at this picture of banana bread.

We got the picture.

There it is.

Oh, oh.

Oh, my God.

That is pitiful.

What is that?

That looks like they put like dirt inside of of like crust.

That's roughly what banana bread is.

Dude, that is absolutely disgusting.

Who will eat that?

Too many people, in my opinion.

It looks like dirt.

It's better if you toast it and put butter on it, but it's still not exactly good.

Oscar, you're absolutely right.

It looks like dirt.

What I really appreciate here is that

I feel redeemed because we showed you a cake and yeah, it looked like a cake and it was boring enough to see.

But then the pure and instinctive contempt that you felt when you saw this banana bread.

Clearly, banana bread is its own thing.

Now, you'd be surprised to learn, or you might be, according to the recipe that Joel sent for that banana cake, banana cake is also best made with mushy bananas.

It is also made out of garbage.

But this is proof.

Mushy bananas, garbage.

Yeah, but I mean, if you're going to use them for anything, make a cake out of them.

You don't, if anything, it's just more proof that banana bread is trash.

Like, you make banana bread, people are repulsed.

You make banana cake, people are, at worst, indifferent, as we've seen.

And in my case, I was a little, I thought it said, I thought it looked good.

The lesson here, as far as I'm concerned, is if you're going to mix bananas, dairy, flour, and sugar,

you better have a banana cream pie at the end.

Yeah, banana cream pie would be really good.

I'd like to do that.

All right, can we move back to the case?

Because I want to answer this case.

It's been going on for too long.

Do you think banana bread and banana cake are the same?

Because they both have bananas, flour, sugar, and so forth.

Definitely not.

Right.

Thank you.

I've never felt more affirmed.

I'll admit it.

They're both garbage.

Okay.

Fair enough.

They're both made from garbage.

The cake looks very okay.

Yeah.

I don't love cake, but it looks...

I'd have a slice.

Neither do I.

But what I do like is...

Can we move to the next cage now?

I'm bored.

Okay, one more case from Amy in Delaware, Ohio.

I have a 10-year-old son named Bill.

We have a dispute about the children's book, Mr.

Topsy-Turvy.

In the story, Mr.

Topsy-Turvy visits a town and causes mischief.

When he disappears, the town is left completely topsy-turvy.

I believe that Mr.

Topsy Turvy has gone home.

Bill says the townsfolk have murdered and consumed Mr.

Topsy Turvy.

They act topsy-turvy because they have absorbed Mr.

Topsy-Turvy's essence.

I love that.

Please rule that Bill is wrong and must stop yelling, they ate him, when we read the book.

So

I have one thing to say.

I believe

that

how could more than one people

consume one person?

There's not enough essence to go around.

Right.

And plus they'd get arrested for it.

If there's even, I mean, it's upside down in Topsy Turvy Town.

Who would even do the arresting?

The criminals, maybe.

I'm not familiar with this book, Mr.

Topsy Turvy.

This is one of the little, the Mr.

and Miss Books.

Mr.

Man books.

Yeah, this is a Mr.

Man book.

I remember this from my own childhood.

I was very early on Mr.

Man books because

my best buddy Jody Scott had an English parent or English books.

Danger Mouse, Mr.

Man, and EastEnders were all very important in their house.

Amy sent in some evidence, and there's a page here from Mr.

Topsy Turvy about when Mr.

Topsy Turvy has left.

And there's

an illustration of a newsreader on television.

And the text says, what the town discovered, even though Mr.

Topsy Turvy had left, was that everything was still topsy-turvy.

Read all it about, shouted the people selling newspapers, instead of shouting, read all about it.

So I don't know this particular Mr.

Man book, but Amy sent in some evidence.

And there's a photo sort of towards the end after Mr.

Topsy Turvy has disappeared or been eaten ritually.

And I guess what it's an illustration of a of a newsreader on television says, what the town discovered, even though Mr.

Topsy Turvy had left, was that everything was still topsy-turvy.

Read all it about, shouted the men selling newspapers instead of shouting, read all about it.

Morning good,

people started saying to each other when they met, and do do you how instead of how do you do?

Everyone was talking topsy-turvy.

So, Oscar, you feel that Mr.

Topsy-Turvy has not been ritually slain and eaten by the townsfolk.

But that's just because you think it would be impractical for everyone in the town to have a piece of Mr.

Topsy Turvy.

Now that we think about it, this is a book.

Right.

So why are we even talking about it?

No, this is a book.

So

technically,

it's not like

any way could be anything, even if it doesn't make sense, since it's a book and children don't understand existence and it's a children's book I'm guessing so it just makes sense because children don't understand some things most things actually my thinking is this you know Oscar that book stone soup yeah you know how the they start with the stones and then they make enough soup for everyone in the entire village

What if instead of starting with stones, they started with the corpse of Mr.

Topsy Turvy?

Oh my God.

And then everyone in the village brought like a zucchini or whatever.

That's what I'm saying.

It's a book.

So either one would work because children don't understand existence and are little puny,

little puny little things in this world.

Well, now you're talking my language.

Yeah, I mean, I'll say that

Amy's child is not entirely off the mark here.

You know, cannibalism has been practiced in times of cannibalism has been practiced in times of hardship uh from the donner party to many many sailors to the uh to the uh to those um human-eating soccer players in the andes

it would be hard for an entire township to gain sustenance out of this one mr topsy-turvy you're right it wouldn't go but if the point isn't survival but instead ritual A little topsy-turvy goes a long way.

Everyone just needs a bite of them to get that essence.

Do you know what I mean?

You ever read a children's book called The Lottery?

No.

They should make an illustrated children's book version of The Lottery, a little golden book of The Lottery by Shirley Jackson.

That is not kid-friendly.

Gambling is not kid-friendly.

It's a different kind of gamble,

as you will surely read when you hit seventh grade.

But in any case,

I am going to say the evidence is right in the text.

Yes, Mr.

Topsy-Turvy left.

It says so.

Mr.

Topsy-Turvy had left.

And not only that, but the topsy-turviness of the town would suggest that it is, they are not happy to still be topsy-turvy.

Or I should say, they are happy not to be still turvy topsy.

Because, you know what I mean?

Because they're like,

yeah.

So why would they want to eat him to get topsy-turvy?

Mr.

Topsy-Turvy is the antagonist in this.

He is the town who comes to stranger Amy's son in a topsy-turvy way.

Yeah.

And then they get rid of him.

If eating him him was going to save the town, they would not be topsy-turvy at the end.

They would have consumed him and set things right is my interpretation.

Yeah,

that makes sense.

Well, I went to Yale for literary theory.

Did you know that, Oscar?

Never mind.

It was worth it.

Point is,

I'm inclined to rule against 10-year-old Bill on the facts.

But on the other hand, which is more fun, Oscar?

To believe that Mr.

Topsy-Turvy just left, or to believe that the town in secret in the dead of night decided to eat him?

I think he just left because children is inappropriate for children.

Cannibalism isn't appropriate and that's a children's book

and

it wouldn't make sense that cannibalism would be inside of a kid's book.

No, I agree.

I don't think it is the author's intent to suggest that this is a town of cannibals.

But that said, I also learned in college that the author is dead.

Probably eaten by the town, frankly.

And that you can interpret a book without consideration toward authorial intent.

Okay, either one's fine with me.

Just choose one.

Yeah, okay, I will.

Bill wins.

Mr.

Topsy-Turvy got it for sure.

I think there's everything.

The text does not really support that conclusion, but it makes it a lot more fun to read.

Yeah, Mr.

Topsy-Turvy sounds like the signifier just got signified.

Bop, bop, bop.

Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop.

And finally,

Amy also sent in, oh, all right, let's do it.

All right.

Were you going to sing it?

No.

Okay.

I like that, though.

Finally, Amy sent in some other photographic non-evidence of this wonderful dog they have.

Do we know the name of this dog?

No.

What's a dog real?

How is this dog related?

Sometimes people just send in pictures of their pets

for me to see them.

Look at his teeth.

Got a little underbite there.

I don't know what the name of this dog is, and I don't know what the name of that fish is.

Fish?

Well, I was just, we still have to name that fish.

What about Mr.

Topsy Turvy?

Mr.

Topsy Turvy or Mr.

Turvy Topsy?

No, your last fish that doesn't have a name yet.

What if we named it Mr.

Topsy Turvy?

Here are the candidates.

Mr.

Topsy Turvy, the fish.

Banana cake, the fish.

Disgusting banana bread, the fish.

Oh, I have an idea.

I'm going to name it

Banana Bread is garbage.

Banana bread is garbage, the fish.

Welcome to the tank.

I love it.

Oscar, thank you so much for lending your true wisdom and harsh justice to juvenile court this week.

The docket is now clear.

That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmor.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

Valerie Moffat on the boards on this episode.

Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Hashtag your judgejohodgman tweets, hashtag jjho.

And check out the maximum fun subreddit to discuss this episode at

fun.reddit.com.

You know, Oscar, Jesse, Valerie, you're all there in Southern California.

I know what it's like there, but here, here, it's taking a real cold snap.

Winter, winter is upon us.

We got to get cozed up up here.

During these dark, cold times, we need some of that cozy comfort.

And I was thinking, why don't you send us some of your cozy disputes?

Did your sibling steal your favorite cozy cardigan?

Does your partner hog the comfy covers?

Oh, I know.

A couch full of 13 cats.

Is that cozy or merely smelly?

We'll take any cozy dispute you might guess.

Disputes about tea cozies.

Now it's time for me to go home and play Fortnite.

That sounds cozy to me.

Preferred activity.

How do you coze up?

What's your favorite cozy mystery to read?

Submit your cozy disputes to maximumfun.org slash JJHO.

Do it.

Oscar, you love coziness.

What's cozy to you?

You inherited your mom's passion for being cozy.

Sissy.

Sissy, our dog sissy.

If you have disputes with our dog sissy, like she's a biter, for example.

And she begs for pets 24-7.

Once she starts licking you, she just does it compulsively until you literally physically pull her off you.

Yes.

None of this sounds particularly cozy to me, but then again, it's not a cat versus dog thing.

That cat puke, not cozy.

She pees in mommy and daddy's bathroom sometimes, but not in the toilet.

That's why I have pet fish.

They don't pee.

Well, they poop, but they don't really pee.

And we'll take any of your disputes that you might have.

Yeah.

And if you have disputes that aren't about our dog sissy, you can still submit them at maximumfund.org slash jj.

We don't care what it's about.

Honestly, we don't.

Just submit it and we'll let Jen and John sort it out, you know, after it's been submitted.

If you got a dispute, put it in there.

We'll eat it up.

Oscar, my son is losing his mind at this point.

So we'll talk to you next time.

We got to go get some tacos.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

MaximumFun.org.

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