Plea Cute

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, please cute.

Jonathan brings the case against his wife, Kat.

Jonathan believes their first date was a post-class lunch in their college cafeteria.

Kat says that lunch did not count as a date.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Podcasts, don't be so melodramatic.

Look at all those podcasts down there.

Tell me, would you really feel any pity if any one of those podcasts stopped moving forever?

If I offered you £20,000 for every podcast that stopped, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money?

Or would you calculate how many podcasts you could afford to spare?

Free of income tax, old man.

Free of income tax.

The only way you can save money nowadays.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Jonathan and Kat, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

Yes.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that as a graduate of a major Northeastern private university, he only ate, I don't know, gold doubloons or something in his college cafeteria?

Yeah.

Yes.

Munch, munch, munch, munch, munch.

His college cafeteria was Hearst Castle.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

No hints, Bill of Jesse Thorne.

No hints, if you please.

Jonathan and Kat, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment, one of your favourites.

Can you mention the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

It was almost a complete quote.

Obviously, the podcast was not part of the quote.

I substituted podcast in for a telling noun.

Kat, let's start with you.

There is a lot of money, money stuff.

Money stuff.

I'll put that down as a guess.

Money stuff.

Yeah.

I do not think that it's a Christmas carol, but that was what my brain went to.

I'm very not confident there, but I feel like Jonathan was raising his eyebrows.

So

we might as well just go on over to him.

Well, I'm putting down a Christmas carol and money stuff.

Money stuff.

Money stuff sounds like a Wesley Snipes movie from the 90s.

Wesley Snipes and Woody from Cheers.

What's his name?

Woody Harrelson.

That's

one of those movies.

You're close.

It was Wesley Snipes and Coach from Cheers.

What a film that would have been.

Now, Jonathan, what is your guess?

I thought I knew it.

It sounded like something from the end of Squid Games on Netflix, but...

Sounded like something from the end of of squid games.

The end of squid games, which would be a great title for a squid games sequel.

All right, I'll put in both squid games and the end of squid games, the return.

That's the sequel title.

And let's see, money stuff.

Money stuff meets ghosts.

Squid games.

Nope, all guesses are wrong.

Jonathan and Kat, what generation are you?

I don't want to ask your particular age.

Are you in your 30s, your 20s, your what?

We're right on the cusp of millennial Gen Z-ish.

I'm 27.

I'm 26.

Oh, so you weren't even born when this podcast started.

Way back when, when I used to say my favorite movie was a certain movie that I had tried to get the person I am married to, at that time, a person I was just starting to date, to watch.

My wife, then girlfriend, who was a whole human being on her own right then and now, came over to my house.

I had rented my favorite movie to show her.

We had just started dating.

This might have been kind of our first date.

And I said, would you like to watch Carol Reed's The Third Man, starring Joseph Cotton and Orson Welles?

And she said, no, thank you.

Let's hug and kiss instead.

I'm like, oh, dates.

I understand.

Okay, good.

Now I know.

Now that's how I learned what a date is.

This is a case about dates, what they are, when they happened, what counts as one, what doesn't.

But the answer, of course, was the third man.

I was quoting from the famous Orson Welles monologue at the end of The Third Man.

You ever see The Third Man, Jonathan or Cat?

I have.

I have not.

I've actually never even heard the title of that movie until this moment.

I wouldn't leap into it.

You need to see the first and second man first.

Otherwise, you won't be able to follow it.

Yeah.

Man Trinity is the official title.

Orson Welles plays a

black marketeer in Vienna, in

post-World War II Vienna.

And his old college chum meets him on a giant,

what do you call it?

Ferris wheel.

And he's saying, don't you have any morals about the people that your bogus ponicellin has been hurting?

And he does not gesture down at the ground to podcasts.

He gestures down at the ground to people who look like ants to them.

And he said, if I gave you 20,000 pounds to stop one of those dots from moving, wouldn't you do it?

That's what I considered to be a romantic movie at the time.

I'm glad we didn't watch it.

Now on to the case.

Who comes to seek justice in this fake court of non-law?

I do.

Jonathan, what is the justice you see?

So.

My remarkable wife, Kat, who's a whole human being in her own right.

Very nice.

You have listened to the podcast before.

All right.

We've been together for close to eight very blissful years of marriage.

I think it's a very successful marriage.

You know, fights and quarrels are squashed pretty quickly.

But one disagreement that's existed throughout our whole relationship has been over what a first date is and what our first date is.

And I believe it is our cafeteria outing.

In October of 2013, the community college we were both attending.

I invited her to have lunch with me at the cafeteria.

I walked her to the cafeteria.

We had lunch and I walked her back to her class.

I count that as a date.

She doesn't.

I'll let her argue her points, but I think it hits all of the hallmarks of a date that I'm sure we'll get into.

Okay.

Before I ask for your testimony, Kat, let me just check with Jonathan on a couple of details here.

Are you at liberty to say the name of the community college where you had this cafeteria date?

It is Meridian Community College in meridian mississippi old meridian comm and um in the cafeteria did they just have trays and trays of grilled cheese sandwiches yes i would usually get like a grilled cheeseburger every day okay okay oh i love i love to eat in a cafeteria i would go on a date with you there jonathan yeah it was pretty dingy cafeteria And before we go any further, may I ask, when you walked her to

Meridian Community College CAF, were you wearing a cape?

And at any point, did you lay the cape down over a puddle for her to walk over?

No, I left my cape in the apartment.

Yeah, see, that would have decided it pretty quickly because when you put a cape down over a puddle, it's definitely a date.

Wouldn't you agree, Jesse Thorne?

Yeah.

Did you know that at Yale, you're not even allowed into the dining hall without a cape?

Oh, yeah, I learned the hard way.

They have some lost and discarded capes that you can put on if you show up gauche.

Capeless.

Apparently a cloak does not count.

A hooded cloak does not count.

I'm like, I'm a member of a secret society over here.

They said, get out.

Go get a cape.

Gentleman's cape to go with your gentleman's C.

That's high C.

They used to serve it in the cafeteria.

Gentleman's high C.

They never deigned to serve low C.

No,

it was regular high C, but with absinthe.

Okay, anyway,

Jonathan, finally, before we go any further, I will,

legally, I will correct the spelling of your name.

You're welcome.

Because you spell your name j-o-n-a-t-h-o-n that's correct this is the second jonathon that i've had to deal with today i'm just i just settled on a on a case for the new york times magazine my little column net my judge john ojman columnet in there

uh against in his little preview spoiler against a jonathan i've never met another jonathan so you got to get to know this person he's from australia and he calls uh lunch dinner which is fine but he also calls breakfast dinner he calls all meals dinner i don't know if that's an australian thing or what but the point is cat when you are you, are you married now, the two of you?

Yes.

That's nice.

You definitely, you definitely have a date.

At least one.

We'll figure out which the first one was.

Yeah.

But you knew what you were signing up for when you marry a person named Jonathan.

It's not a sprint.

No.

This is going to be a long road with this Jonathan.

Sure was.

Sure is.

Gonna get a lot of John.

I hope that it goes on forever.

Now, how do you dispute the contention that Jonathan has made about this date?

Well, I say that this is not a first date.

And in fact, not a date at all.

This this is more of um an acquaintance get-together and if anything is a group friend outing because it's not a one-on-one sit-down lunch as jonathan likes to paint it this so jonathan and i met in the meridian community college concert choir um which is a it's a small ensemble to a 25 to 30 students i'll watch five seasons of this television show

Yeah, 25 to 30 students at most.

And

we met there

by Jonathan complimenting me via

telephoning a compliment through someone else in the baritone section.

So I.

Wait, he called into, he called out of the

baritone?

No, he called out of the baritone section.

You look nice.

You look nice.

You look nice.

You look nice.

As it passed from section to section.

No, he,

you know, when you whisper into someone's ear and they whisper into someone else's ear, that kind of a telephone.

Oh, like a game of telephone.

Yeah, like a game of telephone.

He didn't want to.

Oh, Jesse, you were right on.

That's exactly how it was passed down the line.

Yeah.

It started as, you look nice.

And then eventually, as it went through 30 different people, it was like, I need mice.

So this guy named Kaylin tells me he likes my dress.

And I'm like, oh, thank you, Kaylin.

Very nice.

And then Jonathan is like, no, that's compliments from me.

And I'm like, oh, cool.

And that's how we met.

That's a pretty meat cute.

I never knew what meet cute was until probably a decade ago, but that's what, that's the situation in a rom-com where a couple meets.

It's usually pretty cute.

That was pretty the cutest of the meet cutes that I've heard.

I would think so.

Good job.

And this choir met during the lunch period.

I think it started at 12.15.

And so it was a pretty common occurrence for the members of the choir to eat together either directly before or directly after class because we were always hungry right around the time choir met because it was every single day of the week from 1215 to 130.

And also you were young people and you were hungry all the time.

Starving, ravenous.

Of course.

And you you could just like eat a dozen grilled cheese sandwiches and then go to choir and be like,

this is fine.

And then have like 10 more after.

100%.

No cheese throat problems.

No, exactly not.

Just

drink a gallon of whole milk before you get up on stage.

Why not?

You could do it then.

Your body was in perfect condition.

Yeah.

So what I'm getting at is that it was a pretty normal occurrence for groups of choir students to eat together at the cafeteria.

And so it's kind of always understood that anytime before or after choir,

at least five to 10 choir kids would be eating in the cafeteria.

And so it's kind of neither here nor there if on a specific day Jonathan was like, hey, do you want to get lunch in the cafeteria?

Because I was always going to get lunch in the cafeteria that day.

It's not a special kind of ask.

It's not, it's a very, there's no risk involved.

it's and it's not any kind of expression of romantic intent i it's basically like you are you walking the same way i'm walking yes and also i will say when we got to that we did walk to the cafeteria alone together on this day however

we sat at a table with five to seven other choir students there were multiple other mcc

people there i love the idea that these choir choir students roll 10 to 15 deep

out to the cafeteria and they're all holding and they just push some dweebs

off of a bench.

Like, sorry, choir's here.

You don't know where the choir table?

You don't know this is the choir table?

Matching Letterman jackets.

Stop

off

nerds.

Did the choir table, the choir group all have a regular table, yes or no?

Yeah.

Where was it in the calf?

When you walked in, it was on the right-hand side, kind of in the corner.

What was the nearest neighboring click?

The board gaming table?

There was definitely a Magic the Gathering group, but they did not hang out in the cafeteria a lot.

They hung out in the kind of social table area outside of the bookstore.

All right.

And what did you have for lunch on this non-date?

Do you remember?

Was it memorable at all to you?

Salad.

I always, every time I go in a cafeteria, I eat at the salad bar.

I love a salad bar, but I hate the prep work to make a salad bar on my own.

You don't have to make a whole salad bar, you know.

You can just make one salad.

That's true.

You live in Kentucky now, is that correct?

Yes.

Yeah.

So you probably have

a little bit more square footage in your home than an average New York apartment.

But that doesn't mean you have to get a whole salad bar.

Honey, what should we put on the registry besides all these sneeze cards?

So,

Jonathan,

let's talk about intention here.

Did you intend for this lunch to be a date, or were you just walking in the same way and you asked on impulse?

Yes, I think I would disagree with the idea that there was no romantic intention because it had been building up to this point.

This wasn't just the first day, like the way she presented it.

This was like the second thing I ever said to her was, let's go get lunch.

But I think there was clear romantic buildup, like hanging out 101 that led up to this specific day where I invited her to walk with me to the cafeteria and we had lunch I remember it we had lunch together and we were at the choir table alone and then people joined us However long it took for people to start gathering, that's up for debate.

But I think it started with an alone one-on-one lunch.

As you remember it, there was a red check tablecloth.

The lights were low.

There was a Chianti bottle with a single candle in it.

Exactly.

You shared a plate of spaghetti.

Spaghetti.

Exactly.

And then I walked her to her class following lunch.

So it's, I think there's a lot of date hallmarks that are being met there.

Like, you know, those nervous butterflies you get when you're talking with someone you really like.

I think it's clear we both had that.

you know, eating food is a common dating ritual.

And I think by virtue of us being together all these years later, that means it has to have been a date.

Kat, did you like him?

He's describing that he liked you.

I liked him, but I don't know if romantic intent was expressed.

And I also don't think that we had hung out one-on-one before this or even really in a group setting.

And I also may have still been in a relationship with someone else at this time.

So I.

First time hearing of this.

Whoa, wow.

That's not true.

I mean, quoth the Doughboys, wow.

If I rule in your favor, Jonathan, that means I, by law, must brandish your wife a cheater.

No.

If this was your first date, then she was cheating on you, intentionally or no.

She was definitely in a relationship when we first met, but I am positive that that relationship was over at this point.

I remember specifically waiting until that had ended to ask her on this official date.

Here's what I know is that we started dating, officially became boyfriend, girlfriend on November the 9th, 2013, which was

exactly two weeks after I broke up with the person I was with previously.

Nice recovery, by the way, Kat.

Yes.

I'm glad you were able to move on.

And happy anniversary.

We're recording this right now, just a few days after your anniversary, your dating anniversary.

Yeah, hey, Yee-Haw.

Your ninth, I think.

Your ninth dating anniversary, right?

Yeah.

Yes, nine years.

Yeehaw indeed.

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All right, let me get something straight here.

Obviously, there's a little bit of Rashamam going on because there's some indistinct memories happening.

It was your intention for this to be a date.

Is that correct, Jonathan?

That's what you're saying.

Yes.

But

if Kat didn't perceive it as a date, how could it be a date?

I think in a lot of dating situations, it's not, it doesn't need to be clear for both people.

I think sometimes you want it to be like a more natural thing that just sort of turns into a date a lot of times.

Like, I think it's pretty common to go on first dates with friends because, you know, a lot of people want to feel safe.

They have the desire to feel safe or if it turns out they don't want it to be a date they might want an exit plan so i think that's pretty common to be around mutuals for your first romantic outing

jonathan look even though even though you spell your name in an atypical way compared to the other jonathans that i know and the johns we're still all part of the of the fellowship of johns And from one John to a Jonathan, you don't want to be out there saying, if I think in my mind it's a date, date, it doesn't matter what the other person thinks.

I'm not saying that.

That's not a good look for the Johns.

You know what I'm saying?

It's not a good look.

You almost sunk it there, but I'll still hear all the evidence.

I think both of us were hopeful it was a date at the time.

Kat, were you hopeful at the time that this was a date, or were you just having a salad with a choir friend?

Yes or no?

Tell me the truth.

I was hopeful it was a date, but I don't think that that means it was a date.

I think that my standards are and were higher

than just hoping that a scenario is a date makes it a date.

So you were mad that he didn't pay the five bucks to get the violinist to play O Solo Mio?

Or that he didn't swipe his meal ticket.

You know,

I had to use my own.

Not allowed.

Not allowed.

It was.

It wasn't allowed.

I did it for people.

But a big gesture like breaking MCC cafeteria rules,

that's romance.

Interesting.

And you mentioned the thing about risk too, Kat.

Can you say what that means to you?

You said that Jonathan wasn't really taking any emotional risk in going to the cafeteria lunge with you.

I have a note here.

You said it.

Do we need to read it back to you, Kat?

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Okay.

No, I.

I'm just teasing you.

I understand where we are now.

Yeah, he

had not,

I feel like at this point

in our kind of situationship,

I had been doing a lot more of the heavy lifting in terms of

in just initiating any kind of conversation, period.

And his

definition of beginning a budding relationship was kind of just following me around campus and conveniently showing up places that I happened to be.

John Hodgman style.

That is the Fellowship of John move, I have to say.

And I kind of was left in a lot of ways wondering whether or not he was romantically interested in me.

And so, how could I know if this was to be a date or not?

You know, if he wouldn't even compliment me directly.

Let me just clarify that the John Hodgman style of dating is to be around the person as much as possible for years without ever expressing any emotion whatsoever.

But the difference between me and between a John and a Jonathan is that I never walked away from that going, that was a great date.

I walked away from that going, that person thinks I'm garbage because I am.

But he probably doesn't even think it me at all.

Anyway, just a little, just a little

background information there.

And so, okay, so you were waiting for a risk of some kind.

And by the risk, what do you mean?

That's what I'm trying to get.

I guess I was hoping that he would have said something, anything, like, hey, I think that you are attractive.

Why don't we go on a date?

You know, something to that nature.

Or what if you and I hang out alone?

Did he talk like that at the time?

Yeah.

Yes.

No.

Because my friend Jim,

for the first three months of kindergarten, talked like a robot

until they had a parent-teacher conference.

Why don't you and I hang out alone?

Did he ever say that to you?

Or

not until your vows.

Was that his vows at your wedding?

No.

Hey, I like you a lot.

I thought he said that to me once when I thought we were having our first date.

Tell me about what you thought was your first date.

It wasn't.

On November

the 7th, 2013.

Right.

We agreed to go to the movies together and watch Thor, the Dark World.

Terrible movie.

But

that's one I've never seen.

I wouldn't.

I feel bad because Alan Taylor directed me.

He directed me an episode of Bored to Death, and I liked him.

Oh, well.

He can be a good person, and the movie can be medium.

Yes, I suppose that's true.

I don't know.

Okay.

I'm pretty sure the reception of one's artistic efforts is reflective of one's intrinsic value.

100%.

I'm like 85% on that.

Yeah.

Pretty clearly.

So, your first date was that you agreed to go see Thor the Dark World.

And as inauspicious a start as that was, that was your first date.

But you say

an agreement was reached.

Some pretty diplomatic language.

Who asked whom?

So he asked me to go to a movie.

We agreed to meet at McAllister's beforehand, have a little dinden.

However,

when I'm just, I'm just, I'm sorry, I'm not laughing at you.

I'm just excited about Dean Den and McAllister's.

I'm telling you, five seats, six seasons in a movie of this whole thing.

Love it.

Yeah,

when I got to McAllister's,

there was not one Jonathan, but two Jonathans, because his roommate, also named Jonathan, but spelled with an A, was there.

Wow.

Oh, no.

And so

what I thought was our first date,

What I thought, this is a risk.

This is a

expression of romantic interest.

He's asking me to hang out.

Maybe he'll do a stretch inflex in the darkness of the movie theater.

Maybe we'll share a kiss.

Maybe we'll share a baked potato and a cup of soup.

None of them.

The tellisters, their famous baked potato and cup of soup deal?

Yes, the juice too.

We didn't share any of that.

Instead, I sat between him and his roommate, Jonathan.

But you still count this as your first date?

No, I do not.

Okay.

I counted as what I thought was our first date.

Was going to be your first date.

Yeah, this was the kind of...

But it was sabotaged by the Fellowship of Jobs.

Even after agreement had been reached at the Summit of the Two.

Yeah.

I think that there can be more an argument for this than the cafeteria.

I think that our actual first date was after we had already started dating.

And that was a little soiree at at Taco Bell and then sitting in the back of Books a Million and watching Man of Steel on Jonathan's Kindle Fire.

I love the specifics.

That was our third date.

Hey, specificity is the soul of narrative.

No, okay, so setting aside cafeteria,

Love Meet, then there is Thor the Dark World with the Fellowship of Jonathan's.

Love Meat is my favorite kiss album, by the way.

M-E-E-T in this case.

There was so much specificity that I almost couldn't handle it.

Be as specific as possible with this third date again.

You were watching something on a fire Kindle?

Yes.

Boarders bookstore.

We met at Taco Bell and we ate bean burritos and then we rode together to the adjacent Books a Million

and we sat on the floor in the back beside the magazines and we watched Man of Steel on Donathan's Kindle Fire.

In the year 2013.

That is correct.

So many things existed that do not exist anymore in that wonderful story.

Like it's a real trip through time watching Man of Steel sitting by the magazines in a bookstore.

All those things are gone like sand through the fingers of time.

I just made that up.

Sand through the fingers of time doesn't make any sense.

What day did that occur?

You said November 7th for Thor the Dark World.

This was after we had officially become boyfriend and girlfriend.

So it was after November 9th.

I think that it was the following weekend.

So somewhere mid-November.

So how did you become become boyfriend, girlfriend between this non-date for the dark world

and your hangout at Books a Million?

This be,

well,

I was at a you don't have to be very specific here.

I'm just saying

I was at a Halloween party and I was messaging Jonathan and

Jonathan was not at the Halloween party.

He was at his apartment at the community college and

he we were just his roommates John, Jonathan, Jonathan, John, John, and Joe.

He was present.

Short for Jonathan.

Right.

And the Halloween party I was at, they put on a scary movie.

And this was a Halloween party happening in November.

It was a post-Halloween Halloween party.

Yes.

And I did not want to.

I'm tracking the dates very carefully.

I did not want to watch the movie because I was very scared.

Which movie again?

I believe it was maybe Sinister or one of the insidious movies.

Okay.

Very good.

Spooked me pretty good.

I hear there's a scary.

Yes.

And so Jonathan said, well, what if you came over and we watched Fox and the Hound together instead?

And I said,

sounds good to me.

And so then I drove 25 minutes to his

community college apartments that was no girls allowed.

And I snuck into his community college apartments.

Holy cats.

2013 was wild in Mississippi.

Yeah.

Community colleges with apartments where girls aren't allowed, magazines, books a million.

His roommate answered the door.

Was it John or Jonathan or John?

John John?

It was Jonathan number two answered the door.

Already a great beginning to this real date.

Yeah.

It's already a throwback.

I don't know if Jonathan number two knew that I was coming.

And then

I

came in.

I sat on the armchair with Jonathan, number one, my Jonathan, and we watched the Aristocats instead of Fox and the Hound.

The classic bait and switch.

Yeah.

And then

we decided might as well make it official.

And she.

Nice.

I gave her a bracelet.

Yeah.

Is that true?

That is true.

He did.

He was wearing a bracelet.

It was a leather bracelet that snapped together and he took it off of himself and he put it on my wrist and he said,

we're dating now.

He kissed my forehead.

Oh,

all right.

Traditionally, the dating relationship is consecrated with gifts purchased in the college quad.

So it may be a leather snap bracelet.

It may be a Sterling silver ring with a yin-yang on it, or it could be a scarface poster.

Could be some devil sticks.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, exactly.

Here, take one of my devil stick batons.

Forever, we shall keep this stick in the air forever.

Let us now hack the sack.

Wow.

I mean, come on, Jonathan.

Why is that not your first date?

That feels like the first date to me.

That one,

I've never considered that our first date because, I mean, firstly, it took place after the cafeteria date.

And secondly, because there wasn't that one, definitely, there was no intention or effort on my part.

With the cafeteria, at least there was an invitation and a strolling, an escort to the cafeteria.

I must stop you.

As important as a strolling escort to the cafeteria is

to a potential deity's heart, don't sell yourself short here, Jonathan.

You invited her over to watch a movie.

You saved her from Insidious 2, which came out September 13, 2013.

Couldn't have been Insidious.

Couldn't have been Insidious 1 because that came out in 2012.

Sister 2 didn't come out until 2015.

Got to be Insidious 2.

Just so you know.

So you can add it to your calendar.

Thank you.

Your diary.

Yeah, I considered that a romantic date that took place after those first two dates, the cafeteria and the Thor of the Dark World 1.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Tell me what was romantic about Thor the Dark World.

I put my head on her shoulder during the movie.

In the credits.

Yeah.

Before or after the mid-credits scene?

I think before the mid-credits scene, after other Jonathan had gone to the car and left us alone.

Yeah.

Oh, finally he got the message?

Yeah, he was my ride, so

he had to be there most of the time.

How did it feel to be on this runaway love train moving from choir lunch to head on shoulder to exchange of leather bracelet and kiss on forehead over the course of mere weeks?

it was riveting

look cat yes what do you circle is your first date fox and the hound turned to aristocats yes or no no i believe our first date is taco bell followed by man of steel in books a million all right so that was after you became boyfriend and girlfriend yes okay

that's your first date yes and jonathan you're still on cafeteria lunch yeah i consider taco bell our third or fourth date but cafeteria definitely the first date because it's, I don't want to discount, that was a very magical day for me.

I don't want to just lose it to obscure hangout territory.

And November 9th was Taco Bell and Man of Steel?

No, November 9th was the day that was Aristocats.

I don't have a specific date tied to Taco Bell Man of Steel.

November 9th was the date of the Fox and Hound lie.

Yes.

But Taco Bell definitely occurred after official boyfriend and girlfriend.

Maybe I just don't understand the terms here because

I've been probably on two dates my entire life that I knew were dates.

And I'm 51 years old and I don't know what what kids do these days.

Explain it to me like I'm a 51 year old.

First, Jonathan, what is a date?

So I think a date

it has to have a few hallmarks.

There needs to be an agreed upon locale and time suggested or an invitation.

It needs to have some of those first date hallmarks like nervous butterflies or close physical proximity.

And

there needs to be something

building.

It needs to be building into something more.

If after that date you don't want to hang out with that person anymore, then it was probably just a one-sided affair.

So I think a date can be a pretty relaxed, no stakes hangout and still be a date.

Like a cafeteria hang.

Yeah.

Gotcha.

Jonathan, do you think that it requires advanced planning?

Not that advanced.

Some kind of planning, even if it is, you want to come hang out at my apartment.

Some kind of planning.

Did you wake up that morning and go, this is it?

I'm going to sort of walk closely to her as she is walking towards the cafeteria where I know she's going and will be going anyway.

And I will suggest, do you want to keep walking together and have lunch together?

Did you at least think of it that morning?

There was a lot of internal preparation.

You know, if you're, if you're like a shy boy who hasn't been on a lot of dates, like I hadn't at that point, then you want to have, like, if she said no in that circumstance or she didn't see it as a date, there's that exit valve of, oh, we're just going to the cafeteria.

It's like, I don't have to be embarrassed every time I see her now if she says no or rejects me.

So there's sort of like, it's sort of cheating, but it's a way to like play both sides, not give away your whole hand.

And Kat, you heard that checklist that Jonathan laid out when I asked what is a date?

Do you have a checklist?

Sure do.

What is it?

I think that at the very top of the checklist is that both people have to know that it's a date.

I think that it has to be agreed upon by both parties and that romantic intent has to be expressed by both parties.

I think those are the big three for me.

The hallmarks of food or location don't really matter to me because I think that that's very, you know, you could go hiking or whatever.

Right.

Yeah.

So my, my big three are both people have to know that it's a date.

Romantic intent has to be expressed.

Kat, what constitutes an expression of romantic intent?

How would you characterize that?

Hey, I'm interested in you romantically.

She got you there, Jesse.

She got you there.

Simple and believable.

But it does sound like the lunch was special to you,

even if Kat didn't understand or agree that it was a date.

How does it make you feel knowing that Kat doesn't share your point of view on this?

Yeah,

when I remember that day, I remember that being the first official romantic kindling of the spark of our relationship.

I think that was the first time I could tell, even if there wasn't this clear, I am romantically interested in you robot statement.

You know, you can just, not all the time, but a lot of times you can just tell when someone is vibing with you and you are reciprocating that.

So that date was the first time I felt like she does like me, she's interested in me, and we can further this along, maybe go on more dates in the future and see where it goes.

Was there anything that she said or did outwardly that made you feel encouraged to invite her to go see Thor the Dark World?

Well, the fact that she said yes in going to the cafeteria, that was a good sign for me.

I think we had...

That was all you need to get that point.

I think that was the start.

I remember having like very good deep conversations on the way to and following the cafeteria.

Well, heavens, Jonathan, why didn't you tell us about the deep conversations?

Because I thought all you were doing was talking about your cape.

Oh, no, that was me.

I don't remember the specifics, and I don't want to cheat and say we had these super deep conversations.

Did you have deep conversations on the way to and from the cafeteria?

Yes or no?

We've always had good conversations together.

I also don't remember a lot of specifics of our early conversations, except for

a few standouts about academic integrity.

So we don't have to really talk about that a ton.

I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole.

Thank you very much.

But I will ask,

you know, if you didn't already before,

that Jonathan feels a certain way about this cafeteria lunch.

How does it make you feel to know that he thought he was on a date with you and you didn't?

I think it's really sweet.

I think it's nice.

I think it's...

You want to punish him all the same?

I don't want to punish him.

I think that he's holding on to it.

I think he's being very stubborn about this.

I think that

I'm not saying that he's being disingenuous, but I think he really, really wants to win.

And

I think he wants to razz me.

He wants to rile me up.

Like, this is something he pulls out whenever he wants to not make me mad.

Like, he doesn't want to pull this out to make me mad, but if he wants to make me a little bit like frustrated, he'll be like, ah, I don't know what to talk about right now.

I see.

So if I were to rule in your favor, Jonathan, you want me to rule that the first date was this cafeteria date and should be celebrated, right?

By celebrated what?

I just want it going forward, I want it to be recognized as our

first official unequivocal date.

So when friends ask us about it, there's not a bunch of caveats and a bunch of

this might be our first date or this might.

It would be just a definitive, this is what constitutes a date and this is why the cafeteria date fits in that category.

I don't want to lose that.

Why is this important to you?

Because I don't want to lose that romantic spark that we had when we went to the cafeteria.

You felt it.

I certainly felt something.

And you can't even tell me now.

When I said, what did she show to you or say to you?

that suggested that this is the beginning of something, you said, well, she didn't say no.

I won't continue to walk down this same hallway with you because I'm going to lunch anyway.

And there were conversations.

And deep conversations, I forgot.

Okay.

Yeah.

Hey, Kat, I forgot to ask you something.

Yes.

I was so flabbergasted by the fact that you went to see Thor the Dark World with two Jonathans.

And I think it's a second Jonathan does kind of undo the date a little bit more, even than the quality of Thor the Dark World.

Who asked whom on that?

Jonathan did ask me on that.

Whatever we're going to call it.

We're not going to call it a date right now.

On that social occasion.

Yes.

Jonathan, tell me about the day you decided to invite Kat to see Thor the Dark World.

I think that I was building up courage, you know, over those first few weeks.

And that was probably following the cafeteria date.

That was the first day I expressed.

I don't want to know your inner life anymore.

I'm sorry.

I mean, give me some of this sitting on the floor in Books a Million with a Kindle Fire detail.

You decided one day.

I'm going to call her up.

I'm going to text her.

Did you send her an email?

Did you send her a baritone message, a secret choir relay?

And why did you choose Thor the Dark World?

And what did you do?

And what did she say?

And then I'll get her side of it and then I'll go make my verdict.

I believe it was a Facebook message,

Thor the Dark World, because that was the movie that was playing.

I think we both were sort of interested in Marvel movies at the time.

And I saw that as the next step in our soon-to-be relationship is going on either a one-on-one date or a smaller social gathering until it just whittles down to just the two of us as it is now.

So you sent her a Facebook message saying those words exactly, right?

I think we're both kind of into Marvel movies, and I'd like to see if this is going to go somewhere or deteriorate into mere friendship.

Is that what you said?

Not that forwardly, but

I did not mention that.

Kathy, you remember receiving the Facebook message inviting you to see Thor the Dark World?

I do remember that.

I think I actually have a screenshot of that message.

I can maybe

pull that up.

Okay, Jonathan, what are you doing tomorrow?

Me, I don't know yet.

Why, Jonathan, I'm going to see Thor if you want to come.

Me, I do really want to see that.

What time?

Jonathan, 7.30, 7.50, or 10.25.

Me.

7.30 or 7.50 would probably both work for me.

I'm not 100% sure I can go, but I'll let you know by tomorrow morning.

Jonathan, why don't you just commit to it right now and make me super happy?

Me?

I wish I could.

I have to make sure my mom doesn't need me to do anything.

I'm so sorry.

What is the date on that one?

That's November.

I don't have the date on that, but that's.

It has to be November.

It has to be.

It's like November

6th or 7th.

Yeah, I don't want to call you a liar because you said that you went to see Thor the Dark World on November 7th, but it opened on November 8th.

Okay, so then we

saw that.

I think we saw it on opening night.

Unless you went to like a midnight screening the night before.

I could be wrong.

Or unless your mom needed something from you.

She did did not need something from me because we did go the following day.

So

the message exchange ends with, I'll see if my mom needs me, and that's where you left it.

Oh, no, we kept messaging, but I think Jonathan really cringes at the thought of like any messages passed yesterday.

So I think he'll die if I continue reading.

That was a pretty bad exchange on my part.

Why do you think it was a bad exchange on your part, Jonathan?

I did not like that little pressure of of trying to get a yes.

I would tell someone that I'd tell my younger self to not do that.

ABC, that's what I'd tell your younger self.

Always be closing.

Yeah, I mean,

Jennifer Marmor, do you want to weigh in on a, we all kind of gasped at that.

I saw you on your teleconference screen.

What was your feeling there?

What was my feeling?

It was surprising.

I was very surprised that Jonathan went so hard.

Were you grossed out?

Were you like, oh, this guy?

No, but only because I've had a few conversations with him and I know he's not a gross guy.

Right.

That's what you need the cafeteria lunch for to establish non-grossness.

John, the cafeteria meal establishes grossness.

That's where you dip your grilled cheese into ranch.

By grossness, do you mean sublimity?

Yeah, both.

Porque no los dos.

Jonathan, at what point in this text conversation did you invite John John

to the movie theater?

Was it after

Kat semi-rejected your relatively intense overture?

That is a fault on my part.

I did not, at no point did I make it clear to Kat that second Jonathan would be coming on the date.

The reason he did come was because my car at the time broke down every other day and I needed a ride and he was my ride.

So

that was under the stipulation that he would see the movie with us.

He drove me to the movies.

Ooh.

Everyone wanted to see Thor the Dark World.

Wow.

2013 was a very interesting time.

We did not know what was coming for us in 2013.

That's on November 8th.

A time when there were no magazines.

We had hope for democracy and rideshare services were called John John.

That's right.

Jonathan, I'm going to go into my private screening room.

I'm going to watch Thor the Dark World to get myself into the mood for this verdict.

You'll have,

let's see here,

let's see, running time,

112 minutes or so to wait for my verdict and to contemplate what it might be.

Before that happens, though, I would ask you to contemplate now.

If I were to rule against you and say, no, that was not the first date, what would that mean to you?

How would you feel?

And what would that mean to you?

I think I could find content with it either way.

I just want it to be official, what is considered a date.

So

I'll be a little sad if we can't have that day, but I'll still find some solace in the wonderful dates that we've had since.

Okay.

Kat, what would it mean to you if I were to rule that was your first date?

How would you feel about that?

I would be a little confused, but I would accept it ultimately.

Kat, why do you think it's so important for Jonathan to to have this be the first date?

If you had to guess, because

it seems to me like Jonathan has a little bit of difficulty talking about his innermost feelings.

Every now and then he'll surprise you with something.

But like I just asked him, what would it mean to you if I just, if I just ditched your first date?

He's like, I'd find contentment somehow.

Yeah.

If you had to guess and think you've known him now for many years and shared a life with him.

What do you think is going on with him?

Why do you think this is so important to him?

What do you think it means if I were to take it away from him?

I think ultimately Jonathan is very intentional.

So

he

probably,

even though he's not describing in a ton of detail, he probably did think about this a good bit and work himself up to it.

I was also

and am

his first romantic partner, really in any way.

So

it would,

I'm not giving him a ton of credit on this, but

asking someone to eat at the cafeteria with him is the biggest romantic gesture he had ever made in his life up until this point.

So that in itself is pretty nice.

That's a big step for him, even if I don't recognize it as a qualifier for a date it still was a big step for him and so i will at least recognize that.

So I feel like those are probably some bigger reasons that he didn't personally address.

If it weren't a date, Jonathan, if I say that's not a date, would it cheapen your feelings, do you think?

No, I still

value those feelings.

If it's not an official

in terms of like the etymology of a date, if it doesn't fit within that definition, then I'm still fine.

Then what are we doing here, Jonathan?

I just, I want it to be an official date, if I can have that.

Okay.

You want it to be an official date.

The only thing stopping it from being an official date is cat.

Yes.

So when she says, no, that wasn't a date, how does that make you feel?

Slightly.

like my intentions weren't real.

Interesting.

When you hear that, Kat, how do you feel about that?

Well, it makes me feel a little sad for him, but I don't think that makes him, his intentions not real.

It just means maybe I was misunderstanding them at the time.

I think I just needed some clear communication.

Yes, Kat, I can understand why you might expect some clearer communication, but this is the fellowship of John's we're talking about here.

We're shy guys.

Shy guys.

All right.

I can't wait to watch the Thor of the Dark World any longer.

I gotta go into my private IMAX, watch this thing.

I'll be back in 112 minutes.

No bathroom breaks with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Kat, how are you feeling right now?

A little hungry, but pretty confident.

Well, it's almost 12.15.

We've booked you guys into a studio.

Don't worry.

Just outside that studio door is a giant stack of grilled cheese sandwiches.

Thank God.

Sincerely, how do you feel right now?

I'm feeling pretty solid.

Why is that?

I feel like there are a couple of viable first date options, and the cafeteria is not one of them.

I do not know if my

first date, which is the Taco Bell Man of Steel combo, will be chosen, but I do not not think that the cafeteria will be chosen.

Jonathan, how do you feel?

Less confident since those bombshell texts and

everything that's transpired, but I feel good.

I mean, you did come in here guns blazing.

We've never had a more cockshore litigant.

Judge John Hodgman just came in here talking mess and taking names.

Yep.

Jonathan, what do you think might change from this?

think it'll just be a squashed disagreement.

Whichever way the ruling goes, we'll accept it.

And we'll move on.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

Hi, I'm Amber Nash, the voice of Pam Poovy on the groundbreaking FX animated comedy Archer.

Remember Archer?

I sure don't.

That's why I started rephrasing an Archer rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org.

Join me and a bevy of special guests as we discuss every episode of Archer starting from the very beginning.

Archer executive producer Casey Willis and editor Christian Danley will provide insight and fun and help me remember everything I've forgotten about Archer, which is a lot.

So join me on Rephrasing an Archer Rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org because I can't wait to watch Archer again for the very first time.

The Wizards answer eight by eight.

The cornclaves call to demonstrate their arcane gift, their single spell.

They number 64

until

a conflagration

63

and 62 they soon shall be, as one by one the wizards die.

Till one remains to reign high.

Join us for Taz Royale, an oops all-wizards battle royale season of the adventure zone every other Thursday on maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break and we are each going to be appearing live and in person on opposite coasts of this country in the upcoming days.

You've got something going on in Massachusetts.

That's right.

On Saturday, December 17th, I am returning to reunite with our old friend Monty Belmonte on the beautiful stage of the Shea Theater in Turner's Falls, Western Massachusetts.

That's just about an hour and three quarters away from Boston.

That's a little bit north of Hartford, a little bit east of Albany.

It's the Pioneer Valley, everybody.

I'm coming back for what we're calling our Hodge Monty holiday spectacular.

Monty and I, I'm the Hodge, he's the Monty, are going to be having some fun together and doing some chats and maybe singing some songs along with two very special guests, our friend Jonathan Colton and our friend Gene Gray will also be up there.

You can get your tickets and reserve your seats right now.

Just go into whatever search engine you use and type in Hodgmonty, H-O-D-G-M-O-N-T-E.

H-O-D-G-M-O-N-T-E.

And I want to give a little shout out to the Prairie Lights bookstore in Iowa City.

There's some chatter on the internet.

when we were talking about Aslan and his family reading Gareth Hines' graphic novel version of The Odyssey an episode ago or so, and Aslan said that he found it in the kids' section of the young person's section in the basement of what he said was City Lights Bookstore in Des Moines.

Some chat on the internet, like, did he mean Prairie Lights Bookstore in Iowa City?

Wherever it is,

whatever lights your independent bookstore light, be it Prairie Lights, City Lights, wherever it may be, go out and support your local independent bookstore, especially now as we are entering into the holidays.

Books make tremendous gifts.

I want to thank Gareth Hines, who illustrated that graphic novel edition of The Odyssey

for writing.

He listened to the episode, really appreciated it.

I think we're going to put him in touch with Aslan to send some more age-appropriate work to that family.

For indeed, that interpretation of the Odyssey is for 11 years old and up.

So I guess we got it right for once.

Jesse, what do you got going on?

I'm going to be in person as well back in South Pasadena, California on Saturday, Saturday, December 17th at the South Pasadena Vintage Flea Market.

We had a great time, met some really nice Judge John Hodgman listeners last time around.

Rob Hubel stopped by.

Yes, that's right.

Rob Hubel from the upcoming new goosebumps television show.

Oh, really?

Is that true?

Good for you, Rob.

Yeah.

I know.

I love it.

God, Rob Hubel's so handsome.

Well, I mean, it's not a very articulated H, but his last name does begin with Hubel as in handsome.

Yeah, I think there's no doubt about that.

But anyway, the afternoon of Saturday, December 17th, we'll be out there right off Mission Street in South Pasadena.

And of course, no matter where you live, you can do your holiday shopping at putthisonshop.com or, John, on Instagram at put.this.on.

I would say our Instagram business may be even busier than our web business at this point.

Basically,

I'm sending stuff out on Instagram as quick as I can bring it home from estates and flea markets and so forth.

So get into the put this on Instagram and follow those stories to grab the latest cool stuff.

Right now, it's a lot of leather jackets going out the door right now.

A lot of vintage pins going out the door right now.

We're working on all kinds of stuff.

So putthisonshop.com and put.this.on on Instagram.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

My friend and bailiff, Jesse Thorne,

made a little lighthearted tease about the runaway love affair of these weeks back in 2013.

And, you know, he's right.

You weren't Vespa-ing in Rome and then jetting off to Paris.

and dancing atop the Eiffel Tower as fireworks go off.

But I'm going to say this is the most romantic Judge John Hodgman ever.

I want to play this every Valentine's Day.

Jennifer Marmer, do you think you can slot that in for every Valentine's Day?

Clear it in the Judge John Hodgman calendar every February.

Because look,

here's what happened.

Kat didn't see it as a big risk, but absolutely, and risk is a part of a date, right?

When we talk about the dates, what is a date?

Planning, risk, romance, these all play in to a certain degree.

Incipient romance, though, is the hardest one to say.

Like once the romance has bloomed, is it even a date at that point?

A date is a getting to know you type of situation where there's a sense that something might be happening.

And for Jonathan, that was definitely happening on cafeteria day.

Cafeteria Day, Jonathan felt it and he dealt it and he smelt it, those delicious grilled cheeses.

He made a call to sidle up to Kat in the hallway, a call in the hallway,

and

make his play, which was to say, Do you want to go to the place you're going to anyway with me?

And she said yes.

And even though if she said no, she would have been a monster, which she obviously isn't, and he knew that she wasn't, even though this risk was profoundly minimal in any real-world capacity,

it's true that Jonathan felt nervous about it.

And Jonathan felt excited to be there.

When asked what was the most important thing about this date?

To Jonathan, the answer was, she said yes.

That was before you even got to the cafeteria.

That was a big day for Jonathan, romantically speaking.

For Kat, it was nothing.

And I don't blame her.

It was nothing.

She went and had lunch with a guy.

She was either still dating someone or just getting over someone, but it was enough for Jonathan.

Then comes November the 8th, Thor the Dark World weekend.

Everyone was so excited about Thor the Dark Dark World.

This also speaks to planning, risk, and romance because you asked someone to see Thor the Dark World.

We all knew.

It's not like it was Batman Day in 1989.

This is not like a sure thing like going to lunch in the cafeteria after choir.

Thor the Dark World,

that was probably the prime pick in a weekend of bad date movies.

No offense to Johnny Knoxville.

Jackass Presents Bad Grandpa is not someone you want to take on a first date to.

Neither is Captain Phillips, I would say.

No offense, Tom Hanks.

I know you're listening.

Or the dark world, and you knew, and you knew that she was, she was into it.

And you sent, here it comes, planning.

You sent that Facebook message.

She hems and haws.

And finally, this is the thing that I was really struck by because you really took this as like, oh, I put pressure on her.

And, you know,

I have to say, and heavens or whatever knows, listeners may disagree with me.

They often do.

When you said, it would make me really happy if you just said yes,

I felt a little pitter pat there myself.

Nine years later, I'm like, oh, maybe I want to go on a date with Jonathan.

To me, that's a risk.

That's you're really putting yourself out there.

Because ultimately, a date is really about like, I'm interested in you.

I don't, I don't want to just go to lunch with you and a bunch of singers.

I want to see you and be with you.

Now you blew it, obviously, because you brought a second Jonathan.

This does not eliminate the fact that you wanted this also to be a date, Jonathan.

If it were not for Jonathan too, it might have been.

And you did put your head on her shoulder, which is pretty cute.

And I hope you felt that that was okay with you, Kat.

It was.

It was.

And then came November 9th, which is your anniversary.

So the first day was a big day for Jonathan.

The second day was a big day for Thor.

This third day was a big day for both of you.

And then what you want to be your official first date on or about November 16th, going to Taco Bell, having bean burritos sitting on the floor of Books a Million, watching Man of Steel on a Fire Kindle, I would argue is probably the best day and maybe the only good day in the history of the Snyder-verse.

But as grand a gesture of risk and planning as Thor Day, Thursday, as we call it in the English calendar, was.

Nothing is more romantic than the day Jonathan offered you an out

on watching Insidious 2 to come see The Fox and the Hound.

And yes, he misled you.

He said The Fox and the Hound and switched it out for The Aristocats.

A movie that I have not seen ever, I don't think.

But it's got to be more romantic than Fox and the Hound.

Fox and the Hound is just about buddies.

Whew, the gesture and the kiss.

This is, I mean, this is one of the most romantic.

This is a runaway love affair with the icing on the cake of sitting on the floor next to magazines, which, you know, from a from a Fellowship of John point of view is the most romantic thing you can do on a date.

I think it's all wonderful and incredibly romantic, and I'm very glad for both of you.

But you can see how each of these sort of falls into a category of a date and falls out of a category of a date.

I think first and foremost, my ruling is going to be cafeteria date can't count.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, Jonathan.

I can't let you have that as a date.

You can't have a secret one-sided date.

She didn't know it was a date.

I believe that she didn't know it was a date.

You can't walk around and say that was a great date if it's not mutual.

That was an important day for you and in your relationship.

Thor counts as a date, but I'm not going to allow it because Jonathan crashed it.

It would have been a great first date.

It was a semi-date.

It was a preview date.

And

I'm not going to count Man of Steel on the floor either, because that's an established couple hang.

The date, to me, the first date, the one that I can't, I can't,

it's just, you know, a date doesn't have to be romantic.

A date is specifically about getting to know one another, you know?

But you had already gotten to know each other through choir.

Like, there doesn't have to be a romantic expectation out of a date.

You're really just...

figuring each other out and wondering and seeing if there's a spark there.

And through through all these interactions that were non-dates, you did see and feel a spark.

And it just so happens to be your first date was also the day you realized that you really cared about each other and your boyfriend and girlfriend.

It just happened the same day.

You're already celebrating the anniversary of it.

I'm going to say that's your first date, in part because it makes no one happy except me.

Because of course it is.

Of course it is.

Oh, when you text a, do you want to come over to my house and watch?

One of the most romantic things a person can do.

Let me save you from that scary horror movie.

That's my ruling.

November the 9th, 2013,

Fox and Hound Fake Out Day.

First date, dating anniversary, settled, solid.

This is the sound of a gavel.

You look

nice.

You look nice.

Judge John Hodgman rules: That is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jonathan, how do you feel?

I'm content.

I'm happy with this.

I love Kat.

I love my wife, so I'm happy with this role.

It's the freaking Buddha over here.

No wants, no needs, just sitting under that tree.

Kat, how do you feel?

Pretty ready for a grilled cheese.

No, I'm, you know, I'm feeling good.

I'm feeling, I'm feeling, as long as it wasn't the cafeteria, I was happy.

Jonathan, this is my real question.

If you're going to pull the fox and hound switch, why wouldn't you show Robin Hood, the horniest of the 1970s Disney movies?

I didn't think we were at that stage yet.

Fair enough.

Fair enough.

Jonathan and Kat, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

In just a moment, we'll have Swift Justice.

Our thanks to Ain't No Rule for naming this week's week's episode Plea Cute.

If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman Suites.

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This episode recorded by Neil Kesterson at Dynamics Productions in Lexington, Kentucky.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment, Twitter user at life on a plate says, my partner prefers to read books with the dust jacket on, but I believe the jacket should be preserved nicely.

For mutually owned books, I would like a ruling that dust jackets should be removed and safely stored while reading.

Well, the solution to this, I mean, look, first of all, congratulations on reading physical books.

It's a wonderful feeling.

Not something I do very often anymore.

Books are beautiful objects.

And when you hold them and read them, there's very personal experience, very intimate experience.

And people curate libraries with a lot of care, both in terms of what they like to read and preserving those intimate objects that they love.

And they have difference of opinion.

But here's my difference of opinion.

There's no such thing as a mutually owned book.

It's no such thing.

I hope that you and your partner stay together forever, Life on a Plate, at Life on a Plate.

But if you were to ever break up, you know which books you'd be taking, and you know which books you'd be leaving.

Beer, peer, re-beer, peer, re-beer.

Yeah, so do what you want with your dust jackets on your books in your library.

All right.

Now, we also talked a lot about, oh, good old Meridian Community College, good old MCC.

We'd love to hear more college and academic-related disputes.

Do you still have a beef with your old roommate from college?

Or are you still best friends with your old roommate from college, like Al Gore and Tommy Lee Jones?

Can Al Gore and Tommy Lee Jones, who were Harvard roommates together, please write in with a dispute from college?

Do you have a case against your dean that you'd like to submit?

Are you in college now and you're feuding with classmates over a group project?

Is like, are you a member of the Yale football team and you don't want to study Indonesian?

Just any dispute that you have having to do with community college.

getting an associate's degree all the way to getting a PhD or anywhere in between or outside of that thinking.

Any, any college disputes, let's hear them.

Boola, boola, rah, rah, rah.

Write them into maximumfund.org/slash jjho.

And of course, no case is too big or too small.

Send them to us on any subject at maximumfund.org slash jjho.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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