Top Golf Mansion

Hello

and welcome.

Welcome.

Welcome.

And welcome.

Welcome.

And hello.

Hello.

And welcome.

To you.

To you.

No, don't go away.

Please come in.

No, what?

Welcome.

Welcome.

Oh, no, you.

No, that wouldn't go.

No, please.

That wouldn't continue.

Now,

everyone else, come.

Everyone, only you, the listener, are welcome.

Not the other ones.

The people around you who are not listening.

Send them away.

Not welcome.

Not invited.

Not welcome.

Not welcome and welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Who are you?

I'm guest bailiff Gene Gray again.

By popular demands.

You know what I say?

Guest Bailiff Gene EA.

Right?

That's going to confuse even more people.

I don't want to erase your very name.

Gene Gray is the name.

Do you know how many times

people type my name as Gene Grea?

E-A.

I'm not, not, I'm not talking, you know,

maybe you might be dyslexic or something.

Shout out to all my dyslexics out there.

Right.

No, it's just a common error.

Jane Grea.

Jen.

I type my name as Jen Gria a lot just because typing fast.

So, Gene Ye.

I still get a fair amount of J-O-H-N's, Joan Hodgeman.

That happens quite a bit.

Gene Gray is spelled J-E-A-N.

Yeah.

Space.

G-R-A-E.

Learn how to spell it.

I picked it that way, not because of copyright issues.

No, not at all.

Because of symmetry.

Visual symmetry.

Oh.

The E-A.

And the A-E.

I like the way it looked.

Gene, G-R-A-E Gray.

We have some cases on the docket.

Are we ducking in dockets?

Let's dunk in dockets.

We're in the chambers.

We're going to duck in dunkin' dockets.

Yeah, we're going to serve some dunks on these dockets.

Here's a case from Edward.

Oh, boy.

While attending grad school in Keene?

Keene?

Keene.

New Hampshire.

New Hampshire.

I know it's New Hampshire.

I just wanted to know who's Keene.

Keene.

K-E-E-N-E.

First off, it doesn't have enough flair.

It's Pride Month.

I'm starting it again.

While attending grad school in Canay, New Hampshire, I made many lifelong friends.

After I left, they were all hiking one day and talking about me.

They then found a can of

baked beans frozen in a lake and sent it to me as a lovely memento.

This can makes me think of my dear friends and our quirky times.

So I put it on our mantle.

My fiancé hates my decorative baked bean can and hides it.

Please help me return the can to its rightful place at the bottom of the lake.

I'm sorry, it says on the mantle, to its rightful place on the mantle.

Bottom of the frozen lake.

And of course, Gene, we did ask Edward to send in some photos of the can of beans in place of pride on the mantle and the place where the fiancée hides it.

And those photos are available right now on the show page at maximumfund.org or also on our show Instagram page, which is at judgejohnhodgman for you to review as well.

Gene, react.

What are your reactions?

One, beautiful Monstera.

I'm going to say the nice things.

It's a beautiful Monstera.

Oh, is that a plant?

Yes.

Oh, that's that plant?

That's that plant.

Gorgeous.

Fantastic.

Gorgeous.

Big Fronds.

Really great job.

Excited.

When I was a kid, my

South Africans eat a lot of very, you know, British foods because of

colonizers.

So we ate a lot of like English kind of breakfasty items.

Sure.

And vegetarian baked beans were

some of my favorite things to eat.

And I quickly learned in school when you go to school that that was not a normal thing for American kids to either enjoy or eat was a bunch of beans.

You mean when you went to school in the United States of America?

Yes.

I've only gone to school in the United States.

So you would be bringing a can of vegetarian baked beans to what was the name of your school again?

Where you and all the incredible people?

PS3, the Charette School, which is now the John Melcher School, 490 Hudson in the West Village.

You and Jesse Klein went there together?

That's right.

Jesse Klein, the author of the great book, I'll Show Myself Out.

My good friend Sarah Schechter.

Yeah, so we didn't have a lot of beans at school.

Did you bring a can of beans?

I did not.

I wouldn't.

I wouldn't, because the beans should be in the kitchen.

Yeah.

And I think as an adult, like if someone sent me, I think if someone

thought of me and then sent me a can of baked beans, I'd be like, I feel like we were never friends.

Why?

If anything, there's a connection.

You loved the vegetarian baked beans.

Well, here's the thing.

Someone told you that they found a can, they sent it to you.

Right.

You could just buy me a new can.

One, I don't want a can of baked beans.

Two, I don't want you to, I don't want to have any friends that would take a suspect frozen can of beans out of a lake and then send it to me.

No.

I mean, there is something scary about these beans.

Beans frozen at the bottom of a lake sound like murder beans.

The whole thing.

It's very murdery.

Sounds like something bad happened.

And in this photo of these beans in Pride of Place on the mantelpiece where Edward wants them to live,

mostly the label has been eroded by time in the elements.

Yeah.

There is a little bit of the label left that you can see that says vegetarian.

These might be crime beans.

These could be crime beans, right?

Don't bring home the crime beans.

This could be evidence.

This could be like maybe a murder in Canae, New Hampshire has gone unsolved.

Why did that camper in Canae not eat those beans?

Right.

Like, you don't know what happened.

Why did they get out of the way?

They rolled out of

his hand.

Yeah.

Right before he was going to do it, before he was imperiled by a bad actor, maybe a maybe a murderer, a human murderer.

This New Hampshire, I don't trust anything.

A catamount, maybe a wild animal, maybe a fisher cat got him, a fisher cat, maybe a Bigfoot got him.

I mean, Bigfoots are very, very peaceful creatures.

I shouldn't put that.

I'm always uh still upset that the plural is Bigfoots.

It's upsetting.

I'm sorry.

Should be Bigfeet.

I don't know.

Sasquatches.

Sasque.

Sasquatche.

Scott Sasquatchee?

Anyway, get those beans out that house.

Throw those beans out.

Let me just say, maybe the Bigfoot didn't murder the camper, right?

But maybe the camper saw Bigfoot, totally was astonished, dropped the beans.

They fell into the lake.

And then the camper, like, was so scared and amazed at the Bigfoot that...

he fell over and hit his head on a rock.

Or.

And perished in that way.

Or.

Or.

Or this guy, during his time in grad school, he was out there and he came across a Bigfoot who was sitting at the edge of the lake, like trying to open this can of baked beans.

Right.

And he was watching him.

And

then the Bigfoot saw him and got really embarrassed and threw.

the can of baked beans

and ran away.

Is that why the can of baked beans was frozen?

Yes, because because

like that leg of lamb in the old detective story.

That's because the Bigfoot could throw super far.

Right.

And he was like,

and he threw the beans.

He was like, someone's,

they're going to find out I'm a vegetarian and they're not going to be scared of me.

Right.

Yeah.

That's right.

The beans were their murder weapon.

Purchased at Market Basket, chain of supermarkets in Massachusetts, my home Commonwealth, Shrewsbury, Massachusetts.

And apparently sold across the border in New Hampshire.

Anyway, the beans are scary.

What does he want?

He wants the beans on the mantle?

He wants the beans on the mantle.

Not in my house.

Get these beans out.

You don't keep the beans.

You don't have to put them on the mantle.

I say this.

How about?

Okay.

I say this is the way it can look.

You got to make it look good.

So maybe one of those cool, like a glass container or like a little

box around it and then a little label on the bottom.

like they do at galleries.

It says beans.

Like a shadow box.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Display those beans.

Mount it.

That's the only way.

Mount it.

Mount it.

Make it look look like a piece.

You need a pretty, yeah, because right now it does.

I'll say this.

The beans have a sentimental meaning to Edward.

They were a gift from his friends.

The can of beans looks sketchy and not good.

But what he sees when he looks at them is a memory of his friends going hiking and thinking of him and sending him beans in the mail.

That's a shame that you can't just take pictures or remember things.

It's a shame.

Well, you know, then there should be never keepstakes at at all.

I mean, Gene Gray.

Yeah, I'm fine with that.

I can see into your life in your unnamed city, and I see that there is a ceramic bunny rabbit over your shoulder.

That's my totem.

I told you.

It's the only thing I take with me.

I'll leave everything.

Hajman, I'll burn his house down.

I'll take only that.

I don't even care about that.

What is the meaning of that rabbit to you?

It's a

very specific reference

to the white rabbit and a very specific reference reference to Lewis Carroll

and how that will be playing into my future and how it played into my past.

See, it has significance to you, but it also has the benefit of looking nice.

Yeah.

As opposed to like a piece of salvaged garbage that might have been used in a crime.

Yeah.

And when I bought it, it didn't look like that.

Oh, really?

It was just

spray-painted it.

Oh.

It was a little thrift store bunny.

And it was one of the first things I saw when we got here.

And I was like, the rabbit's guiding me again.

And I picked him up and I spiffied spiffied him up so he could look like a piece.

Right.

There you go.

On display.

So the point is, spiff up your beans.

Spiff those beans if you want to keep those beans.

I'm sure that she'd be happy about that.

I'm not so sure, but I do think that that is an option.

If you want the thing to be in pride of place,

you want to make it clear that you have mounted a memento,

not merely forgot your can of beans someplace.

Yeah, it looks wild.

It's too wild.

It looks wild.

What do you think about the fiancé sneaking the beans way in the corner behind the giant leafed plant?

Oh, I do that.

That's a thing that I did a lot in this past relationship and where I live.

I will take small things and I'm like, what, what?

No, I'll bring it up.

You could put this in some corner where you keep your ridiculous things.

I'm not putting that up here.

You're not putting it on the mantle.

No, this is carefully curated.

What are we doing?

Right.

What do you want to do?

Curate your beans, spiff your beans.

I agree with you, Gene.

Yeah, spiff those beans.

I mean, I think that Edward should deserve to have things that are meaningful to him on the mantelpiece.

Sure.

Agreed.

Right.

I mean,

it's his home.

They are going to share this home.

Yeah.

They're going to share this relationship.

I think that it happens that people in a relationship feel empowered to take the things that are meaningful from one person and hide them.

Yeah.

And that could make the other person feel a little bit disempowered.

And that's not fun.

Sure, absolutely.

But I agree that this particular can of beans and the specific, we deal in both principle and specific.

And the principle of the thing is you deserve to have something on your mantelpiece, but specifically, not these beans.

Or spiff them up.

Spiff them up.

Spiff it up.

Put them in a shadow box, as Gene Cray suggests.

Or just put a little

label on the wall that says beans.

Beans from my friends.

Beans from friends.

And then the day, the year.

That's right.

As we have said on Judge John Hodgman a long time ago, the difference between a collection and a hoard is a display case did you say that yeah that's some settled law this is why we're friends this is why it's true because yes you can't just have a hobo mantle no you have to but you got a bindle too like what are you doing but we're talking the hope the hobos of the early 20 the early and mid-20th century the ride the rail ride and obos they had an aesthetic they did things with intentionality i'll tell you this if there was a section on the mantle that that was like can of beans, bindle, um,

uh, like, what else is the hobo thing?

Natty Gannett.

Yeah, okay.

A big rock candy mountain.

Little um, a train figurine.

And I'd be like, oh, there's like a

thing going on.

It's a theme.

A theme.

Some like you can't just beans out of nowhere.

It's crazy.

Beans out of nowhere.

It's not going to work.

What are we talking about?

This is what we're talking about from the very beginning when we started recording.

Act with intentionality.

And our intention, I think, has to be to move on to the next kiss.

All right, cool.

Here's something from Troy.

I'm an English major, reader, writer, and English teacher.

I tend to speak with a robust vocabulary.

Do you?

But my real issue is my nagging need.

I'm so sorry.

I haven't been anywhere in a long time.

So I'm going to bring it up.

It's so nice to see you.

It's so nice to see you.

I tend to speak with a robust vocabulary, but my real issue is my nagging need to correct the grammar of my friends.

I do not correct the grammar of strangers or acquaintances.

My reasoning for allowing the need for correction to get the better of me with friends is because we've established a close enough relationship that I can feel comfortable in wanting them to be correct.

This has caused a few bumps in the past, always with a kind of shrugging away of the conflict after a few quips.

Judge, should I stop correcting friends altogether?

Or should I be more discerning in my attempts at bettering the people in my life that I most enjoy?

First things first, Troy, my reasoning for allowing the need for correction to get the better of me with friends is because we've established a close enough relationship.

What you mean to say is my reasoning for allowing the need for correction to get the better of me with my friends is that we've established a close enough relationship.

You burned.

The whole thing was a run-on.

The whole thing was a run-on.

The whole paragraph was a burden.

It was a burden to read.

A burden, Troy.

That's the second thing.

Yes, Troy.

I have to say,

there are a couple of reasons that grammar exists.

And the most benign reason that there are

excuse me, thank you.

I do apologize.

I stand corrected.

The other reason for grammar that is not so good

is that it is not neutral.

Correct grammar, correct usage,

was created to distinguish itself from quote-unquote non-correct usage.

This is in every language.

And more often than not, the people who speak quote-unquote incorrectly are the people in that culture who do not have power.

And I don't think this is a coincidence.

I don't think that correct grammar and correct usage and the social power that using it

conveys

was done neutrally.

I think it was purposeful to exclude people who didn't speak correctly, outgroups, and marginalized people,

people who weren't in power and aren't in power.

I'm going to sum it up real quickly.

I think the determined proper English and correct English is a tool of white supremacy.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, basically, to sum it up.

But, you know, if you say supposedly in front of me, I'm going to still get mad.

I'm going to correct you.

It's not a word.

Neither is irregardless.

Get out of here.

But, you know, let's, let's, you know, we can have fun with language.

I love language.

I love language.

You're supposed to.

You're supposed to.

You're supposed to.

And that's how, if you're not challenging any of the systems that are in place or what's supposed to be correct or, you know, what's supposed to be proper, then what are we doing?

How do we progress?

How do we move forward?

We don't.

Right.

But there is no inherent virtue in correctness of grammar.

There's not.

But there's a lot of virtue in expressing yourself clearly and imaginatively and interestingly and not letting correctness of grammar get in the way.

Yeah.

And I will say, just to wrap this up, Gene,

we've gotten a lot of letters from people proclaim to be grammar folk, and I believe that they love language.

None better than me.

None better qualified than me.

I had to bend words and letters and meanings and triple entendres for a living.

So

sorry, Troy.

Calm down.

I just mean to say that every one of these letters that I get from a grammar nerd always contains an error of usage

or a grammatical mistake.

And this is like, you know,

if you don't want to be hoisted on one's own petard, maybe not have a petard.

Okay, we're going to go to a quick break to hear from this week's partners.

We will be back with more cases to clear from ducking into the docket on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfun.org, and they are all your favorites.

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Just go to maximumfund.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Hey, welcome.

Not welcome.

You're still welcome.

Welcome back to the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

This week, we are clearing the docket.

Here's a case.

You ready?

Yes.

Sorry, I didn't mean to step on you there.

Are you just going to, you can just agree to everything.

Yes.

Yes.

To which part?

All of it.

All right.

I feel great about all of it.

Are you sure?

No.

I was trying to be positive for a little bit.

No, I just want you to be honest.

They say you should say yes to the universe.

Oh, that is not true.

You should say no.

You should say no to everything so that you can be at peace.

Say no, y'all.

Maybe later.

I'm snacking and napping right now, universe.

No, that's too, that's explanation.

No explanation.

Just no.

That's what they say on Reddit, right?

Isn't it?

No is a complete sentence.

No is a complete sentence.

That's right.

I got a whole episode about it.

Anyway, here's a case from Meg.

Okay, Meg.

My husband and I went to top golf on a date.

I'm not a golfer.

He's not really either, but he plays for fun a few times a year and is much better than me for sure.

Okay, I had to look up what top golf was.

Do you know what top golf is, Gene?

It's It's the

best golf.

It is.

It's the best golf.

It's the best.

It's like

you think of golf as being a pretty upscale.

And then top golf, the balls are golden.

Yeah.

The greens are

higher.

Like there's a level up.

They're higher.

Yep.

Yeah, everyone plays below.

They're just playing regular golf, but you have to take

a plane.

You have to take an elevator

up to top to top golf.

It's played on tops of mountains that they have chopped off the top of the mountain.

The beautiful thing about top golf is that they have to chop off a whole mountain half.

Yeah.

You know, you think, can golf get more environmentally destructive?

Yes.

Yeah.

Chop off a mountain.

Top golf.

It was called chop golf,

but they changed it because they were like, it's not really, it's kind of explaining the thing that we have to do, but not like how we feel about ourselves.

Right.

You know, it's tops.

It's the tops.

No, top golf is a chain of driving ranges

around the country.

I guess it started in England, but now they have them throughout the Mid-Atlantic region.

There's probably a Top Golf near you in that unnamed mid-Atlantic city on the eastern seaboard, Gene, if you wanted to check it out.

And you go there and, you know, a driving range.

I've never done this, and I've never golfed, and I've, or, you know, I've only mini-golfed.

Same.

But it's like, you know, you hit the golf balls into a net far away, right?

You're trying to practice your driving.

But with top golf, there are goals.

It's kind of like frolf, frisbee golf.

But instead of hitting them into, you know, trying to aim the frisbee into a little net, there are holes arrayed in front of you, I guess.

And

you aren't walking around.

It's like,

when you go to the arcade and there's the basketball machine where you're throwing actual basketballs.

I love that.

I absolutely love that game.

I hate playing real basketball, but I love that game.

It's the panic.

It's the panic of it.

It's the pressure.

Right.

You got to go fast.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I don't know if top golf has a speed round,

but you are basically playing golf into a cage outside somewhere.

I would go do this.

Yeah, we should do it, right?

Yeah.

See what it's like.

I like mini golf, but I've always wanted to go to a range.

But this sounds like an interesting combination of like a couple of things that I thoroughly enjoy

in a very, in like a different kind of competitive nature.

So you know, and you don't, you don't go anywhere, right?

You know,

they say golf is a good walk spoiled.

This is a good walk spoiled without the walking.

Yeah, I don't, I don't want to walk around.

It's just a good stand.

Yeah, and stand and sit, I assume.

Oh, yeah.

You can sit down from time to time, and they have a lot of sandwiches.

I can tell from looking at the websites.

Let's do it.

Snacks.

Okay.

However, so it's a game.

It's a game like golf, but there are different games, as you're about to read.

There are different games within it, different versions of the game.

I'm already into this.

Very invested.

However, after we played regular top golf for a while, we switched to the kids' version, which had an Angry Birds theme.

And I did so good.

My husband got so rattled by how well I was doing that he blew two of his limited number of swings.

One ball fell off the lip of the platform.

So sad.

The other went sideways and almost took out our neighbor.

But he technically won the game by the skin of his teeth.

Because his do-over shots got him over the line.

I understand that I lost the game as far as the computer is concerned, but I seek your judgment.

Please rule that.

In reality, I won.

If there had been a live person scoring the game, he would have lost.

He got lucky.

So I just want to say, and I did so good.

is quote unquote chromatically incorrect, but I wouldn't change a word there.

I did so good.

That is exactly how you did.

Yep.

Meg.

And congratulations for doing so good at Angry Birds Top Golf.

I had to check.

The only way that I knew that this letter was not for me

is that there was a picture of Meg.

Meg did send in a picture of her and Sean, her husband, playing top golf.

Also, you see the you can see the photo there of how it goes.

You just stand on a stand on a green carpet on a raised platform and hit balls into a net that goes way.

I mean, it's a large playing field, or I guess golfing green surrounded by a net.

And if you scroll down, you'll also see photos, Gene, of the scoreboard, the computer scoreboard.

I love it.

With Meg's score on this Angry Birds version of top golf being much higher than Sean's.

And you also see Sean's hand trying to block her from taking a photo because he's so ashamed that he's losing.

Trying to keep Meg down.

Trying to keep Meg down.

Now,

if I understand this correctly, meg had an early lead sean was rallied he was blowing his shots but he had a couple of do-over shots at the end which i presume are part of the game because it's kids top golf after all it's very forgiving yeah you know what i mean shouldn't that he he managed to what they say in the new york times crossword eke out a victory

however small So here's the deal, Gene.

Do we assign her the win

because

she had such a commanding lead and she so rarely wins at this game?

And so much that he was rattled and felt diminished.

Delicious.

Even though, in a technicality, at the end, he won the game.

For children.

Built for children.

For children.

That he won the game for children.

Oh, you're asking what I think.

What's your opinion?

First off,

Mac, my people.

I know that you're my people from the tone of this letter, from the activity that was happening, from the way you described, and your competitive nature.

I am a very competitive person.

My husband and I

played mini golf

at some point during the pandemic, at some place that we could find.

And I specifically love this place

because when you win, you get a little trophy and you get to put like a little sign on the bottom.

Like you can print it out.

Number one, I just want to win all the time.

I don't care if it's mini golf.

I don't care.

I don't care what it is.

I want to win.

Sometimes when I get off the train

and I'm walking,

I play a game to myself that I beat other people who get up the stairs.

And those are my little wins for the day.

I like to beat people.

So when I won this game that he thought he was clearly going to win, so I'm not a particularly athletic person, but I will make it happen.

And I got my little trophy.

I would love to send you a picture of this to include.

It's a very small

little gold trophy, probably about eight inches tall

with a little golfing man on it.

And

I wanted it to say other things, but I ran out of characters to use.

So I believe it's just like Gene is the best at putt put number one, number one,

gene one.

And I um, I wanted to keep it, I keep it on the mantle, actually,

which is very funny.

Next to your can of beans.

Um, but then I couldn't, I could, it, it just, it wasn't being curated well there, so I had to move it somewhere else.

And then I put it away because it doesn't go out with anything else, even though I'm so proud of it.

Um, another thing that I also adore, and I'll keep this as short as I possibly can,

is anytime there are rules for children or if I'm, say, in an arcade and I am playing against a child, like a child, I have not gone up to challenge a child.

A child will wander up to challenge me.

I'm not

going to go easy because I think children should learn.

Right.

And I think they should see someone who looks like me beating them in that game.

So I don't think those rules should be afforded for children.

Get those angry.

I mean, if you want to keep them in place for children, that's fine.

But if you're adults playing that game, I think

if you're doing those do-over shots, it doesn't count.

We know it doesn't count.

You're not a child.

And if I were Meg, I'd be like, yeah, you won by children's rules, not by actual rules.

So I had already won the game.

We're done here.

Right.

Are you a child?

But Sean is obviously a child.

I mean, I'm looking at this picture and he looks small.

Well, if he's actually trying to block Meg from taking a photo of the, of the score in which he's losing.

Yeah, I mean, there's that.

That is childish.

And then see his fingers?

Those look like children's fingers.

Right.

I think Meg won.

And I think the technicality was that it was children's rules, but you are not the children's.

I got to say, I was going to, with a heavy heart, give this one to Sean

because if if it was part of the rules, like there are lots, you know, how much I love sports games, right, Gene?

So much.

I'm always watching the sports.

Yeah.

And I have seen sports games where one team is playing really, really well and one team is playing really, really poorly.

And it's very exciting when the team that is playing well wasn't expected to play particularly well.

And it's very double exciting when the team that is playing poorly is the one that was favored to win.

And the team that is playing very, very well, it's just so exciting.

And

you get to a point in the game where you think like there's no way they can't win.

And then the other team, I don't know what happens, just gets a good net or something or hits a good froth or whatever it is.

One last, you know, maybe

something unusual happens and a seagull comes down and drops the baseball into the score hole unexpectedly.

And there's not anything in the rule books.

And then the bat, the bat breaks in half, and then they got to run to the bases, but not get tagged.

Right.

And there's this last, but a last minute come from behind victory is definitely part of these competitions.

And I had to say, if he's playing by the rules, he's playing by the rules.

I don't see why we, I don't see how we couldn't grant Sean the win.

But

because I want to side with Meg, because it was clearly a triumph for her,

Thankfully, you with your wisdom guest, Bailiff Gene Gray, have pointed out that they were playing by children's rules, and he is not a child.

He's not a children.

They were already breaking the rules.

Yeah.

All rules were out the window.

These birds are angry.

You think the birds care about the rules?

I'll say that.

All rules are out the window already.

So I feel like technically you go with the score.

Like, that's the game.

He did win the score.

But he won the score.

But only

at the very end.

Jennifer Marmer, you have a tiebreaker on this one?

Yeah, I think that Meg won.

I'm kind of, I think I was coming into this thinking about it, Judge, where you were, but

Gas Bailiff Jean Gray really helped me get to the place where I wanted to be, which is that Meg won.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Look, I'm going to let this tribunal stand.

Two votes against one.

I'll let Meg win, but here's my dissenting opinion.

If he had the most points at the end of the game, it is a technical victory for Sean.

It is undoubtedly a moral victory for Meg.

But as someone who is a member of the Democratic Party, I'm tired of moral victories.

I want some real ones.

I don't think taking a philosophical win is sufficient in this life.

I think people are counting on us to get some real wins, not just moral victories.

So I'm saying everybody out this who's involved in politics from candidates to volunteers, including myself, in campaigns, you know, go for the win.

Try to win this game.

Angry Birds Top Golf is important, everybody.

People are counting on you to win, Meg.

Go out there and play it and play it until you beat Sean on the scoreboard as well as in America's hearts.

Wow, that was beautiful.

Go out there and get him.

Sean, you can't win anger.

You're gonna lose Sean.

Here's something.

From Sammy.

I want to donate my wedding dress to charity so someone else can enjoy it on their special day.

I'm generally not someone who is sentimental about objects.

I really like the idea of my dress continuing to bring joy to others.

The dress is in perfectly good shape and would be cleaned.

My mother refuses to let me donate the dress.

She says I will regret it and that my children may want it for their wedding.

She's very sentimental about objects and wants to have the dress boxed up properly and stored for the future.

I doubt my dress would still be fashionable for a future child many years from now.

But I think someone today would love it.

She and my father bought the dress for my wedding, but I would argue that it's mine to do with as I want to now.

I would like to order my mom to let me donate the dress instead of keeping it for a theoretical future use.

Jane, you know what we have here?

You know what we have here?

Competing intentionality.

What a conundrum.

Because

Sammy has an intention of what she wants to do with her dress, which is to give it to someone who cannot afford a wedding dress.

Her mother wants to put it on the mantelpiece like a can of beans

as a keepsake of the very important time in their family's life and in her life as the mother of the bride

and maybe to give to a future person to

to hoard it like it's generational wealth.

But it's not a hoard because it's in a display case called a mansion.

Sorry, I'm getting confused now.

I'm not saying that Sammy and her mom live in a mansion.

I'm just saying.

I like the idea.

I like the idea that they're in a mansion, but there's nothing there but just the dress in the box.

No furniture.

Maybe a can of beans.

Right.

It's not my primary residence.

It's just my dress and beans store and mansion.

It's the mansion on the Top Golf property.

That's right.

Top Golf Mansion.

This week on Top Golf Mansion.

I would watch that.

I would watch it.

That's my problem.

Who knows what it even is?

I don't care.

It sounds great.

I'll watch anything that starts with this week on.

This week on Top Golf Mansion.

Criteria for shows.

The show is you and I, Gene,

we wake up in separate ballrooms in the top golf mansion.

Ah, two ballrooms.

We don't know how we got there.

Oh, God.

And

we're trying to figure out what it is and where we are and how we get back to our loved ones.

Do we have to play golf in order to get out?

But we can only wear this wedding dress, like two versions versions of this wedding dress.

And there's only beans to eat.

I think it's perfect.

And there's a butler, but all he does is just correct us every time.

It's Troy.

Troy is our butler.

God, what a nightmare I would watch this.

Oh, Top Golf Mansion.

On season 10 of Top Golf.

So whose intentionality wins here?

Because I was being a little.

As I was talking through, I feel like what Sammy's mom is proposing is not unusual at all.

Lots of people

who get married in dresses keep those dresses as a keepsake.

I know that my wife, who's a whole human being in her own right, has kept her dress as a keepsake.

A mom keeping that dress, perhaps for a future generation, not unusual.

But on the other hand, there's something so generous about Sammy's intention.

And I do think it's, we're living in a time when it's really smart to reconsider some traditions, particularly ones that withhold resources from the world to give to someone that you favor in your own family, as opposed to give them back to the world where they can be used.

Who wins, Gene?

Who owns this dress?

Who gets to decide what to do?

Sammy owns the dress.

Sammy, just let's, it's not a question.

And that's, it's a wild insinuation for her mom to be like, it, you know, when you, like, I'm the person like, I've gotten better at it, but I'm like, oh, I always like never wanted anyone to like do anything for me or buy something for me because at some point in the future, they're like, oh, but remember, like, what, but that's like, I did that.

And you're like, never mind.

Um,

so my, my mom never

would never have done anything like that and been like, well, I got it for you.

So it's, you know,

I can still make decisions about it.

Um, it's Sammy's dress.

It was her wedding dress, unless both

it would be a very interesting dress if maybe both her and her mother wore it to the wedding.

Like they both fit in it at this simultaneously.

And I think that's cool.

It may have made her mom happy.

That may have, I'm sure that there are plenty.

There are plenty of parents who wish that

their child's wedding garments came with a little sidecar.

A little sidecar, a little sidecar dress that they could just wrap around themselves.

And they're like, you say, it's also about me.

It's also just so you know, it's also me.

My wedding.

I think that is incredibly lovely of Sammy to want to donate it.

I think

also as a person who has like many things in my closet, some would say too many.

I say not enough.

It's a great idea to know when to like clear things out and be like, is this just sitting here?

What is the sentimentality of it?

I already had the moment.

I was there.

It was my wedding.

These are my feelings already.

It doesn't lay in this object.

And maybe someone else could have a wonderful time in this.

It's such a great thing to do.

It's 2022.

We all need to be living like this.

So I think the idea of her mom, you know, saying, let's donate it to the future.

I think Sammy's living in the future already.

Yeah.

That's the future.

And the future includes, you know, helping people that we cannot see.

or don't know.

Maybe that person that she's donated to in charity is then going to hold on to that dress and pass that dress on to their kids.

Sure.

Maybe it is for a future kid.

Yeah.

It's all for the future.

It's all for the future.

The point is the future is all of us, not just our bloodlines.

Oh, boy.

Can we do?

That's a podcast.

This week on Top Golf Mansion.

Not just our bloodlines.

Hey, I'm going to put in a word for Sammy's mom.

Listen here, Sammy's mom.

It's your judge John Hodgman talking to you.

We've never met, and I like you.

I understand where you're coming from.

And

we have

two adult humans who are out of our care.

One of them is definitely out of our care.

One of them is in that twilight of our care.

And it is really hard to let them go.

It is really hard to appreciate that they are whole human beings.

They are not expressions of ourselves.

They are out there in the world being whole human beings.

They love us, they care for us, but they are going to lead their own lives.

And neither of these two adult humans in our lives, in my family's life, are married yet.

I don't know if they ever will be.

But that is definitely an inflection point when you realize

they are building a family that has nothing to do with you.

Well, I mean, you know, if you did a good job, it's going to reflect values that are meaningful to you and to them as well.

But it is their life, their thing to do.

It's really hard.

And I get, you know, it's like, I get why you want to hold on to something.

If you can't hold on to Sammy, maybe you'll hold on to her dress as she runs away from you and it'll

and she'll, it's like, is it a breakaway wedding dress?

That would be pretty cool.

Oh boy.

A breakaway wedding dress.

That's cool.

And you're left with the dress and you want to, you want to hold it and savor it and everything else.

I get it.

I understand.

But don't hold on to the symbol when you can't hold on to the real thing.

Let it go.

Let it go.

Let it go.

Let Sammy make her decision.

All right.

We're going to take a very quick break.

It's going to be eight hours on our end, but for you, almost instantaneous.

That's the magic.

When we come back, pizza math.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening and if not we just leave it out back and goes rotten so check it out on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts

all right we're over 70 episodes into our show let's learn everything so let's do a quick progress check have we learned about quantum physics yes episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Hey, Gene, we're going to take a break from the the case, talk about some of the things that we have coming up.

I mean, the big thing happened.

We triumphed at Lincoln Center.

You were there.

It was incredible.

It was, it was beautiful.

I brought that centaur and people were like, she's not going to bring out.

I was like, but then I did.

Yeah.

Bring out that centaur.

Yeah.

And thank you all for everybody who came.

It was such a great night.

It was great to see you again.

I hope that we'll get to some live shows soon.

I've got none to announce at the moment.

As mentioned, I am in the throes of a new job on top of the other secret project that I'm working on with David Reese.

So I will just say, for my part, hey,

please don't forget Dick Town starring Gene Gray as Monica.

What a good plug.

You can check it out on Hulu.

It's something that we really loved making.

And the more people know about it, the more people know about it.

That's how I see it.

Additionally, it's wonderful to have you joining us, Gene.

There are some other folks that you may have already heard or will be hearing popping in to do some guest bailiffing over the summer.

I wanted to give a shout out to Linda Holmes, whose new novel, Flying Solo, is out now and is really wonderful.

And you can go get it wherever you get books.

Our friend Monty Belmonte, of course, continues to hold down the Wheels of Steel every morning, every weekday morning at WRSI The River, 93.9 FM in Northampton, where he hosts the morning show.

And you can hear...

A lot of those very, very funny and cool excerpts from that.

His interviews and his field pieces are all collected in A Week of mornings uh it's a podcast by monty belmonte called a week of mornings monty belmonte search that up and of course our friend joel man our main man up there in maine at w-eru 89.9 fm in orland maine also wherever you get your internet radio make sure that you go and check him and the night and day trio out as they jazz trio the summer away on the porch of the pentago at inn in castine maine i don't know how much i'm going to be up there this summer because of this job that I got, this secret job on top of secret job.

It's all a secret.

It's all a secret.

It's all safe, to quote the movie Sneakers, which I will also plug.

The movie Sneakers is pretty good.

It's a pretty good movie.

Gene Gray, what do you got going on?

I know you're rocking your Patreon.

And other than that, all of my projects are not secret.

They're just like...

It's nice to have like a lull in things just in process, and I don't really have to do like other things.

We'll see.

I'll,

you know, it's time to be home in New York and think of some things.

So I'll let y'all know.

You can stay up with me at Instagram at Jeannie Grigio.

Yeah.

So I guess just watch out for me.

Go to the Patreon.

Get you some Stacey Jambles.

Enjoy her.

She's she's crazy.

Stacey Jambles podcast on Gene Gray's Patreon.

It's ridiculous.

I'm so

ridiculous.

Sorry.

Jean's got a book that she's working on.

It's going to come out.

That's not how you do that, which is a TV show going to be coming out soon.

Keep your eye out for everything.

Jean Gray.

Follow her on Instagram at Jeannie Grigio.

J-E-A-N-N-I-E-G-R-I-G-I-O.

That's it.

I think I got it right.

That was it.

Nailed it.

Yeah.

Don't go around not having Gene Gray in your life.

I'm going to tell you right now, I spent

probably about 35 years of my life without Jean Gray in my life, and it was a mistake.

All of those years were a mistake.

Now it's better.

Me too.

Well, thank you.

Let's get back.

Shall we get back to the docket and clear it?

Okay.

Okay.

Bye-bye.

All right.

Welcome back to the judge.

Welcome back to Top Golf Mansion.

This week on Top Golf Mansion.

Who's the host?

What is that?

Is it a vampire?

I'm Sterling from Love Island.

UK.

I wasn't doing a very good job.

Here's a case from Kelly.

My parents live with me, my husband, and our three-year-old daughter.

In addition to providing 20-plus hours of free child care every week, my parents do all of the dishes and clean the kitchen every day in the top golf mansion.

I think we should thank them with a nice takeout dinner once a week.

We like to get delicious gourmet pizza.

Sorry, Pride Month.

We like to get delicious gourmet pizza from a local place here in Louisville.

But my husband Phil will only buy one pizza, which is cut into eight pieces.

This means there are 1.5 pieces for four of us and two pieces for a lucky one.

Phil insists.

You already know.

I have a feeling.

Phil insists that this is enough and that two pizzas is too expensive and too much food.

I think there's an understood cultural expectation that someone offering pizza provides enough for at least two or three slices each.

Maybe four.

No one thinks they're being treated, honored, and appreciated with 1.5 slices of pizza for dinner.

Tonight, he also bought himself only

a side salad.

Oh, boy.

So clearly, he understands that the amount of pizza alone is not enough.

Not enough.

All right, there's a lot in this case.

I'm just going to start, first of all, I want to set aside, I want to table some of the topics, some of the questions of budget and affordability, the question of who the lucky one is who gets two pieces.

I want to table the discussions why this decision is being made by Phil and only Phil,

the topic of financial control of other people, the question of why a three-year-old is offered the same dinner and portion size of four adults.

Let's just put all that aside for a second.

This isn't Angry Birds.

Not the same rules.

That's right.

For children and adults?

What are we doing?

Different rules for children and adults.

But I do want to just establish a universal law, and I just want to get your feeling on this.

Gene Gray, when you are serving pizza or buying pizza among friends,

what's the portion size for a human being?

How many slices per adult of pizza?

1.5 or more no uh uncontrolled slices two two bottomless two minimum

minimum two but if there are say how many people are there six it's just you and me here at top golf mansion

if it were just two of us we would have two pizzas two pizzas for two people two pizzas 100 two pizzas two peeps yeah one pizza per purse I mean, you get, you get two different, I don't know.

Someone might be extra hungry that night, or you, you still want pizza when you get up in the morning, or you want to like wander when you're wandering around the mansion just crying and just dragging that wedding dress behind you and Troy's just berating you, berating you, berating you.

You want an extra slice of pizza.

You want too much pizza because there isn't too much.

Yeah.

Because as I believe Kelly wrote in the longer version of this letter, the only downside of having too much pizza is you get more pizza later.

There's not downside.

That's good news.

Too much pizza.

Too much pizza.

I mean, obviously you have to work within your budget and so forth, but as a principle, as a principle you want more pizza than you need yes now i have a i have a corollary question for you gene because i think this is going to affect some of our decision making here okay is

aside from size

is a large pizza the same as a small pizza no

right well there one is smaller but would you agree that there is something fundamentally different about the look, feel, taste, flavor, consistency,

heft of a small pizza, slice of pizza than a large,

Like a slice cut from a small pie versus a large pie.

It's different, right?

And also,

let me say that I am going by New York pizza rules

and not necessarily like chain rules, but there is a so we're getting thinner as we go bigger.

And

yeah, even like a crust to topping ratio, everything is very different.

A small pizza is

worse.

Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Always worse than

a slice of small pizza is always worse than a slice of

large, or let's just say actual pizza.

Yes.

I'm not saying like you got to go up to coronet pizza.

That's that's for all you New Yorkers on 110th with the extra large jumbo slices.

I do enjoy the extra large jumbo slices of coronet.

Anytime I'm up there, I get one just to have a little laugh to myself.

It's hilarious.

It's too big.

That's a lot.

It's a lot of pizza.

That's the only one I'd be like, all right, you get one slice.

But two two slices of regular large pizza at a minimum.

At a minimum.

Okay.

So now let's get back into this.

Let's solve Kelly's problem.

Okay.

I'm going to give you some details, specifics of the case here.

Because I asked her for some more details.

Because Kelly had said, and this is something that we have to decide, that she would rather that Phil buy two pizzas.

at a cheaper place or a chain than have only one pizza of the upscale gourmet pizza.

Right.

If it came down to budget.

So I asked her some basic questions, and she said that the pizza place that provides the upscale gourmet pizza in Louisville is Sicilian pizza and pasta, specifically Gene, the Glen Mary Plaza location, not the downtown one.

Of course.

And I did go to their website.

This is a real place.

And the pizza looks good.

I do need to point out that under their gourmet pizzas,

you can build your own pizza.

You can put on whatever toppings you want.

Under their gourmet pizzas, I did see something I did not see coming.

You have Ultimate Supreme Pizza.

You have chicken pesto pizza, margarita pizza,

a curiously named Italian-style pizza, which is pepperoni and Italian sausage.

Right.

And then hot brown pizza.

Sorry?

Explain.

Hot brown.

Hot brown pizza.

Are you saying hot round pizza or hot brown pizza?

Because I don't want you to be saying brown.

I'm reading this off of the website.

You're saying the color brown, yeah?

Yeah, because in Louisville, Kentucky, there's a very famous sandwich called a hot brown.

Oh, oh, okay.

That's right.

Right?

You would be forgiven for not knowing that.

I've been to Louisville, Kentucky multiple times.

I have a cousin out in Louisville, Kentucky.

Well, the cousin may be able to verify what I learned from Wikipedia long ago at 3 o'clock in the morning on one of my many journeys down the list of regional sandwiches that I go through when I cannot sleep.

You had a real problem with sandwiches, man.

It's been going on a long time.

I love sandwiches.

I love thinking about them.

I love regionalisms.

And one of them is

the hot brown sandwich first served at Louisville's Brown Hotel.

And it is an open-faced hot sandwich of turkey, ham, and bacon covered in creamy Mornay sauce and then broiled until the bread is crisp.

It's an open-faced sandwich.

Very, it's very upsetting.

So, I mean, look, people like what they like.

Sure.

And in Louisville, Kentucky, they like this sandwich.

And the pizza that is named for and in the style of this sandwich is roasted.

This is a pizza with roasted turkey, bacon, and tomato over creamy cheddar Alfredo sauce.

So angry.

That's what it is.

But that's not what Kelly and Phil and their family are getting.

No, they're not.

No, they are typically getting, according to Kelly, a 16-inch extra-large build-your-own pizza with mushrooms and onion.

It is mushrooms and onion specifically because it's somehow that is the pizza that accommodates everyone's disparate pizza tastes.

She says, I like pizza to be smothered in rich, melty cheese.

Phil likes it more saucy with only the barest whisper of cheese.

My mother scrapes all but the faintest trace of sauce off of her slice.

Somehow, this extra large 16-inch build-your-own pizza with mushrooms and onion, everyone feels okay about it, but they're only eight slices.

And with an extra,

with the toppings, it starts at $17.

Each additional topping is $2.

Then sometimes Kelly will add some black olives and basil, so it's about a $23 pie.

$23 pie.

Now, she concedes that is an expensive pizza, but it is delicious and it works for everybody.

She also quoted some prices for cheaper pies from Pizza Hut, Domino's, Costco's, and a chain that I will not name.

And for $23, you can easily get two large pizzas from one of those.

So, Gene, if your budget is fixed, let's just say for the sake of argument that they only have 23 bucks for dinner.

Sure.

There's nothing.

Well, hang on, because Phil did add that side salad.

He did.

Which is

only one, of course.

Right.

Only one.

But that side salad is five bucks based on the Sicilian pizza and pasta website that I checked out.

So let's say it's 28 bucks total.

Because Phil is saying it's too expensive to get two pizzas.

That's right.

If they only have 28 bucks for pizza and a salad, what is the more generous thing to do?

This good pizza that everyone loves plus a side salad or lots and lots of pizza from Costco?

Well,

especially when it comes to a budget.

The idea here

is that those are not your only choices.

It is about planning, planning, and planning, and this involves some math.

You're talking about intentionality?

I am.

A way to work in polymath, pizza math, is what we're going to do right now.

You are one of our world's great polymaths.

Thank you so much.

Yeah.

No, the big mistake right here, because I don't think we're going to get to Phil.

I don't think we have time to discuss.

We all know how we feel about Phil.

Right.

We all got our feels about Phil.

All of our Phil feels.

One.

I'll just get this out of the way.

I don't know why we're so focused on pizza.

I feel like the only choice is just just pizza, only pizza, pizza from many places, nothing else but pizza, but it does clearly say a nice takeout dinner once a week.

It doesn't specify that that takeout has to be pizza.

Sure.

Unless you just want to have a pizza night.

Now, if you're on a budget, which I truly understand, and especially if everyone in the house really likes different things, may I suggest?

Here we go.

May I suggest an investment, a one-time investment.

You go on Amazon,

you get yourself

two nice large pizza pans that you now own.

You don't have to get pizza stones.

It doesn't have to be fancy.

It's just going to go in your oven.

They're not going to go outside in a little wood-burning grill.

I mean, you can get that if you want to, but I feel like Phil's not going to want to do that.

You're going to get yourself some good San Marzano tomatoes in a can that can stay in your pantry.

You're going to get

some 00 flour, maybe some caputo.

You're going to get some yeast.

You can even get some great live yeast and just keep it in your freezer.

And now every time...

You guys want to make pizza, maybe it can be a family activity that you all make a big bunch of dough and you you freeze it, and you keep it in the freezer for later.

And every time it's this, just the day before you take it out, you let it thaw out.

Maybe you're not doing San Marzan or tomatoes, maybe you're just getting some Rayos.

Everybody loves Rayos, pizza sauce, it's delicious.

Maybe you like

it's it is the greatest jar sauce of all time, and that's just maybe at the most eight dollars,

and that's gonna cover

a jar of Ray's, maybe about six pizzas,

six to eight.

Yeah.

You get your cheese.

Make the investment.

If you're going to budget, if you're on such a math conservation budget, which I understand, which everyone understands, and you want something quality and you want a family activity and you want everyone to be happy and everyone can afford a side salad now, not just Phil.

And you want to honor and thank and appreciate

your parents who are doing all this work.

Absolutely.

Which I think is the primary mission.

Pizzas sound, it sounds like a difficult thing to make, but it's truly not.

Once the dough is made, it is so easy.

And I'll even say lots of supermarkets carry frozen pizza dough, which is just fine.

That was going to be my other suggestion.

If you don't want to do that and actually make the dough, just buy the crust.

Just buy the crust.

Just buy the dough.

It's going to be so, I mean, it's so good.

I was intimidated about making pizza for a long, long, long, long time.

And then the pandemic?

And then the pandemic.

And then I, I made one pizza and I was like, why am I buying any pizza ever?

No.

And if you're making dough, the reason there's so many pizza shops out there because pizza is delicious.

Yeah.

And it's relatively easy to make.

There you go.

And it's economical to make.

Exactly.

The profit margin on pizza is crazy.

I think, you know, look, I think, Kelly, you have a full house to be sure.

You've got a three-year-old.

That's not easy.

You got your mom and dad there.

And I'm sure that, I mean, obviously they're providing you with a ton of support and literal labor around the house.

They deserve to be thanked, but that's a full house.

I can appreciate why the idea of making pizza, since it probably will fall to you, Kelly.

Oh, that's right.

I forgot.

But I think that if the goal is to express gratitude towards these parents/slash grandparents,

this is where you splurge a little.

Put some more arugula on that pizza.

Yeah, intentional, be intentional with your pizza.

The docket is clear.

That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

We are on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

And please remember to submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash J-J HO.

No case is too big or too small.

Guest bailiff this week, this wonderful person, Gene G-R-A-E Gray.

Gene, I'll see you back at Top Golf Mansion.

Jennifer Marmor, please get us out of Top Golf Mansion.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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