Pico de Trial

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Pico de Trial.

Andrew brings the case against his wife, Marilyn.

Marilyn is entering a salsa competition at her work.

When Andrew noticed her browsing the internet for potential salsa recipes, he accused her of cheating.

But Marilyn doesn't see the problem.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Oh, hey, Judge Hodgman, what do you think of when you think of Superman?

Superman?

Well, first, I think he's an immigrant.

And second, I think he's a force for good, as I believe most immigrants are.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Andrew and Marilyn, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

Absolutely.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's not from Texas, where folks know what salsa should taste like?

I do.

Absolutely.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

New York City.

Marilyn and Andrew, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name, let's say, the person, the person that I was quoting as I entered the courtroom.

Who is the person who loves Superman and notes that a a truth, Superman is an immigrant and a force for good, as most immigrants are?

I was going to say Jerry Seinfeld.

Understandable.

Understand that.

And that would be Andrew going ahead and guessing before he was prompted.

Good job.

That would be understandable.

I'm going to put that in the guess because, of course, Jerry Seinfeld has a Superman thing.

And he's known for being engaged with social issues.

That's right.

Exactly.

Primarily.

It's primarily what he's known for.

The famous social justice warrior, Jerry Seinfeld.

What about you, Marilyn?

Do you have a guess?

I would like to say the late Anthony Bourdain.

The late Anthony Bourdain.

Now,

what do Jerry Seinfeld and Anthony Bourdain both or individually have to do with the topic of salsa, which we're discussing today?

Bourdain is closer.

Anthony Bourdain was a huge immigrant advocate.

In

one of his books, he wrote about the industry and how it heavily

relied on the immigrant workforce and and their hard effort to make a living.

And he was also a great essayist in that manner when he traveled abroad.

And probably had made a salsa in his time or eaten one.

Yes.

Or many.

There are many varieties, of course.

And Jerry Seinfeld, of course, on his show.

Yeah, all guesses are wrong.

Sorry about that, Andrew.

Jerry Seinfeld, of course, on his show Seinfeld,

caricatured many types of immigrants.

What were you going to say, Andrew?

I apologize.

They had a little riff on salsa on one of the episodes, I'm sure.

I see Jennifer Marmor is nodding.

Do you remember a salsa episode of Seinfeld?

Yeah, I think there was one where he was talking about how salsa and seltzer sounded similar.

And I was like, salsa, seltza, salsa.

All right, Seinfeld, back in the vault.

Back in the cultural vault, because we are moving forward.

All guesses are wrong.

In fact,

I was quoting Ruben Blades or Blades.

He accepts both pronunciation,

who first came to prominence before he was known as an actor in the Fear of the Walking Dead.

Very, very famous and groundbreaking salsero, collaborating with Willie Cologne on a number of really defining of a new generation of salsa albums, including Siembra, really, really great artist, really, really great guy.

And what I did not know about him, Jesse Thorne, what did I learn when both Ruben Blades, aka Ruben Blades, and I were on Antiques Roadshow, on that same episode of Antiques Roadshow.

I don't know.

What did you learn, John?

Did you not watch that episode?

I haven't watched it.

I'd resent it too much.

Dude's a huge comic book collector.

He has got Action Comics number one.

Wow.

The most collectible comic.

It is the first appearance of Superman.

He also has Detective Comics number 27, first appearance of Batman, and a lot of really cool, weird comics.

I mean, of all the cool things that he is, comic book nerd, it just completed the picture for me so beautifully.

Salsa, of course, is musical genre, an Afro-Cuban, Afro-Puerto Rican musical genre.

Salsa is also

the word for sauce in Spanish, describing a whole variety of different sauces that are used in Mexican cuisine.

And in Tex-Mex or Mexican-American, or let's say,

Chili's American cuisine.

It describes some junk that's in the middle of the table with some tortilla chips around it, which is an American, quote-unquote, Mexican food thing.

And of course, jarred salsa, I believe, is primarily North American because the salsa that you would enjoy in Mexico, the many, many varieties, would often be a, there would be a salsa verde, which would be a cooked green tomatillo salsa, but you could also have a salsa verde cruda, which would be raw tomatillos, all kinds of mepico de gallo, of course.

All different kinds of salsas, some that are just salsas that have no, no resemblance to American salsa at all.

Like a mole is technically a salsa.

Guacamole is technically a salsa, I suppose.

Can't wait to get your letters, everybody, who's going to tell me I'm wrong.

But right now, the topic is salsa.

New York City.

New York City.

Park Slope Man gives the definitive etymology of salsa.

Cannot wait to get your letters.

In any case, who comes to this court to seek justice?

I do, Your Honor.

Andrew, what is the justice you seek?

I would like an injunction against my wife to stop her from using a recipe she found on the the internet to enter a workplace salsa making competition.

An injunction.

An injunction, formal injunction.

This is something she is considering doing.

This is something she is considering doing.

We were discussing her works salsa competition, and this is a big deal.

She has a workplace with a great workplace culture.

And the winner last year is actually selling the chili oil that was the winning entry.

So last year the contest was to make a chili oil.

Your Honor, if I may, the

contest has three categories, most unique, spiciest, and best flavor.

And this can be any food that is unique, spicy, and flavored because chili oil and salsa are from different branches of the culinary.

It is

in Mexico there is something called salsa matcha, which is based out of, it has an oil base.

Oh, okay.

So you know things and I don't.

So how did I do in my description of salsa?

I think it was pretty accurate,

but I actually thought that when you would, you were going to say that

the North American salsa was primarily, but I was thinking you were going to say tomato.

Which would be fairly accurate, right?

Yeah, as opposed to primarily chilies.

Right.

Yeah, it's more sweet and tomatoy.

It's kind of like a goopy tomato sauce.

Yeah.

Did I get a, am I in B territory?

Like B minus territory in my understanding of the topic?

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

All right.

I could do better.

I'm going to get a solid B next time.

B minus.

I give myself a B minus C plus.

So you know about salsas.

You want to enter this contest.

This is a salsa contest that your workplace has.

May I ask what kind of workplace it is?

I work for a berry company.

We are a berry producer

that grows varieties for a well-known well-known worldwide brand.

Cool.

And

we have different events throughout the year.

So the salsa contest is always, ironically, on Cinco de Mayo.

So a berry company.

So it's usually like a Boysenberry salsa or a raspberry salsa or a strawberry salsa.

Well, that was the discussion that Andrew and I had.

We were considering if I should enter like the spiciest category or the

most flavorful or and unique um

so with that since i work for a berry company we kind of tossed the idea of having a salsa with berries in it oh cool what berries were you thinking of using uh we discussed blackberries uh possibly um strawberries um we had a blueberry lime with uh havenero that we were also talking about.

This all sounds great.

Why did Andrew get in the way of this incredible invention?

He believes that if I

use the internet for inspiration,

that that would be considered cheating

and that I should use a recipe that I have experience with, something that has maybe been passed down by family or by friends or something that I found on the internet, but had a chance to really practice and kind of make it my own.

Andrew, you just shook your finger Dakembe Matumbo style.

Yeah, I'm going to quibble with this a little bit.

She wanted to use an exact recipe step by step from the internet.

She didn't want to use it for inspiration, which I believe is fair game.

but she wanted to find a well-reviewed online recipe and replicate it in its entirety.

And that's what I believe is against the spirit of the competition.

And you work at this company?

I do not.

I work at the local Boys and Girls Club.

That's wonderful.

So you're not an entrant.

You're just an impassioned bystander.

Absolutely.

You saw what you believe to be an ethical breach and you would not stand for it.

It was my duty.

You would not bystand for it.

Literally.

I absolutely could not.

Right.

Andrew, do you still have to give 50 cents to get a foos ball at the Boys and Girls Club?

Not at our Boys and Girls Club.

You can have as many as you want for free, Jesse.

Oh my goodness.

Man, the Boys and Girls Club has really come up in the world since I was a kid.

The problem was foozball theft.

That was just a deal for podcasters, though.

A lot of people in my neighborhood thought the big problem was gangs and stuff, but it was actually foosball theft at the Boys Club.

So your husband has accused you of cheating.

How do you respond?

You were going to take a recipe from the internet and make it an enter in the contest.

I feel wrongfully accused.

And I feel like this because

when it comes to family recipes, Your Honor, when I ask grandma about different recipes, my mom, they kind of explain the base of their recipe.

But when you ask them about measurements related to salt and pepper and

you know, things that really make the

recipe your own, they always kind of mention, you kind of eyeball the amount.

It's kind of to taste.

And when you look at our recipe.

You're talking about that famous salt and pepper salsa.

And

when you

look at other recipes on the internet, whether it's pasta or whatever it may be, they always mention season to taste.

So

although I would be look using a recipe from the internet, my my thought was, okay, well, if I kind of of adjust the seasoning behind it, or if I want to add additional peppers or additional fruit, even though I'm following the specific recipe, then I'm kind of putting my own twist to it and making it my own.

Marilyn, are we talking about adding new ingredients to an existing recipe, or are you literally suggesting that you're making a recipe your own by adjusting the amount of salt in it?

It could be either.

Something that I'm known for is for finding a recipe and

not really following it to the T.

Something that

I am known for, especially by my family, is if I find a recipe, I kind of follow it, but then I kind of add things that are not in the recipe because I kind of get a little creative in that way.

I was thinking, okay, this would be the base, and then maybe adding additional fruit or additional ingredients that may not be listed.

So

that was the idea.

Let me ask you, was the blueberry lime salsa that Andrew mentioned the one that you found online?

There was that

discussion about that salsa, but then there was also this blackberry salsa.

He recalled that during his dad's wedding, there was a blackberry salsa that was served with pork that was delicious.

I don't remember having it.

So that's kind of what I was going for.

Oh, Andrew, at your wedding, a blackberry salsa was served?

My father's wedding.

Excuse me, your father's wedding?

Right.

Okay.

Gotcha.

So

you wanted Marilyn to make the salsa you wanted.

And because she didn't, you decided to take her to court.

You trumped up a charge of unethical salsa making.

I believe Marilyn has the skill and the creativity.

And I surveyed her family, her mother and her grandmother, and her grandmother will not lie.

And both of them thought Marilyn could win this contest on her own accord.

She is an incredible cook, an incredible salsa maker.

She has her own recipe that she's adapted from her mom for an avocado tomatillo crema.

And it is amazing that that would have won the competition, hands down.

But instead, I think her competitive nature got the best of her, and she decided to

look for an advantage.

Marilyn, what is your family background?

My mother's side of the family is from Michoca, Mexico, and my father's is from Guanajuato, Mexico, or Mexico.

You do have family connections to family recipes of different salsas, obviously.

Yes.

There is a tradition of making salsa in your family, as Andrew contests.

Yes, yes, there is.

Although the recipes have been passed down, they're kind of more guesstimates as to how much of what you should use and whatnot.

And I feel like my salsas always come out very watery.

Like, I'm never too happy with my salsas.

Okay.

Is that why you would turn to the internet rather than to a family member for a recipe?

I think it was more the...

You're saying that your Abuela's salsa is too watery.

No, she makes it perfect.

On a podcast.

We've got your abuela on the line now.

Watery abuela, what say you?

The way that I execute it, I'm not happy with.

How do you feel about your inability to replicate your grandmother's salsa?

It always comes out too salty.

It's a little embarrassing, but something that I'm working on.

Have you tried talking to her about it?

Yeah, she just tells me to add less water.

What goes into your grandmother's recipe so that all of our listeners can steal it and enter it into their workplace contests?

She uses a base of tomatoes.

She will cook the tomato,

three, four tomatoes

until they are all softened.

She will

add those to the blender.

She will then toast

some chiles de harbo

and just toast them lightly because if you overdo it they will get really bitter and they'll make the salsa bitter.

So you just kind of start kind of toasting them over a skillet until they get fragrant.

I don't even toast my chiles d'Arbol.

I bake them in a salt crust.

You might want to try doing that, a hard salt crust.

Yeah.

But salt to taste.

Salt to taste.

Extra salt.

Okay, so cooked tomatoes, blender, chiles d'harbo that have been lightly toasted.

And maybe two cloves of garlic.

There you go.

And salt and pepper to taste.

Any no onion in there?

No, no onion.

Oh, interesting.

Do you like that salsa?

Yeah.

But I feel like that salsa is kind of replicated in many families because it's just a base salsa.

So if you're...

It's not a winner.

It's not a winner at the Berry Factory salsa competition.

Because I was trying to go for the most unique.

So most unique

had to have a twist to it.

You had to have a twist.

Judge Hodgman, can we just stipulate that spiciest salsa is a baloney category that could just be won by adding a bunch of spice to something?

Absolutely.

Like it just is who buys that like special jar on the internet of distilled ghost peppers or whatever.

What a load of hooey.

It's like that hot sauce that promises to hurt you.

Yeah.

Like who cares?

That's not good.

That hot sauce that promises to hurt your bum.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

My child has that, and it has a picture of Steve-O from Jackass.

Yeah, it's showing you that.

It's Jackass hot sauce.

I got you.

Two thumbs up from Andrew as well with that spiciest.

I agree, it's bologna, but have you tried my spicy bologna salsa?

No, I have not.

Anything can be salsa if you cut it up fine enough, I learned.

I've tried the salami version, but I got to try that

bologna.

I like those big peppercorns.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So So now I understand what's happening here, Marilyn.

Thank you.

You're targeting the unique category.

Even though you have traditional recipes from your own family, you're going to zig rather than zag and give some kind of salsa that's going to wow them with its innovative properties.

Correct.

Right.

Marilyn, give us an example of a modification that you've considered.

You wouldn't have to have done it, but if you started with one of those recipes that you've been looking at, what might you change?

Besides just the amount of salt, obviously.

So sometimes adding

lemon or lime can add a different twist to the salsa.

Also, I thought about maybe adding mango or different fruits that would be kind of

good add-ons to whatever the recipe that I would have selected.

Let's get to get to specifics here.

What

recipe

were you going to steal?

Well, it wasn't even at that point.

I was just kind of browsing.

You hadn't settled on a recipe to steal yet.

No.

It was merely that Andrew saw you using the internet that caused him to step in.

Yes, yes.

I was kind of browsing and

my idea was select one or two that I can try out and see which one was the one that I was most comfortable with.

Right.

And

what were the ones you were thinking of?

There was this blackberry salsa online.

I don't have the exact title of it.

I think blackberry salsa kind of says it.

Okay.

But this wasn't Andrew's father's wedding blackberry salsa.

No, that one was from a caterer.

We don't have any connection to that book was actually made by my father.

Oh, was it?

I didn't know that.

Yes.

wow that was made in-house oh wow specifically for that event this is the salsa that you love so much Andrew that you couldn't get Marilyn to make for you absolutely uh why does it taste so good oh it's it's just an unexpected flavor uh that comes from the berries you have a sweet and then contrasting that with a little bit of heat from chili is just incredible and I always love the mix of sweet and savory yeah sounds like a natural combination with the pork on which it was served but Marilyn you you wanted to go further that Your father-in-law's wedding blackberry salsa was not for you.

You wanted to go further.

You wanted to get stranger.

You wanted to go into the internet and hit up Reddit for that really out there salsa.

I think I may have been missing information, Your Honor, because I did not know that that was his father's recipe.

And when we talked about it, Andrew didn't mention that.

I'd like to contend that we actually have a copy of that recipe.

Every single Christmas, my family, in lieu of presents, exchanges recipes.

I have a question.

You're married, right?

Both of you two are married to each other?

Right.

Seven years.

Right.

Have you met each other?

Briefly.

Do you live in the same home?

Sometimes.

With a two-year-old, so communication is right.

I mean, or do you only talk through podcasts?

And otherwise, you're silent.

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All right, well, let's put a pin in father-in-law's wedding Blackberry salsa and instead get to the rules of the contest.

Are there rules of the contest that prohibit this?

No.

Okay.

Has it been done before?

Not that I'm aware of.

We don't really inquire about the origin of the recipes.

People just bring

their bowl of salsa and it's displayed in the great space

along with chips and people have a chance to munch along the day and then at the end of the day everyone just votes for their favorite according to category.

What's the prize?

It's just a gift card like $25 gift card and like bragging rights.

Chips and dip just they have it they take a different they hit different as they say on Twitter these days.

Chips and dip they hit a little different and a little different.

Marilyn who won last time?

Well this is the first year that the contest has

been reinstated because of COVID.

But one of the last winners

was a co-worker who made the salsa matcha, which is kind of chili with oil.

She has since stopped working at the company, but she runs her own side business where she sells the salsa and some

other items that she makes at home.

I don't intend to sell the salsa, but I do enjoy winning.

I like that this past winner just comes back every year on the salsa day wearing her Letterman jacket.

i want this recipe i want to buy some of this salsa matcha will you send me the link uh yeah i can send you to their instagram account that sounds really good andrew i noticed that you you you made a lot of different faces as uh marilyn was describing the the entrepreneurial success of her co-worker with this salsa matcha you want to get into this salsa business don't you you want marilyn to win get the gift card and go into business selling salsa?

I think Marilyn understated the nature of her competitiveness

and i think if marilyn won she would 100

try to capitalize on that by selling the salsa that sounds like something you're eager for andrew what about you marilyn is andrew telling the truth or lying you want to become a a salsa magnate um

i i think he kind of knows my entrepreneurial spirit, but I don't think I would start a salsa company if I had a chance to start a salsa.

Why not?

There's no competition.

your honor she had previously won one of the cookie baking companies and has approached me several times on ways to sell the cookies that she bakes she wants to sell them for 50 cents to the kids at the boys and girls club doesn't she

never charge for cookies you can't play bumper pool unless you buy a cookie kid

So you're saying every time she says, I have no interest in doing this, Andrew, you come back in saying, she does want to do it.

She wants to sell cookies.

She wants to sell everything.

So you're saying she's not only a cheater, but also a liar.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Yes, Your Honor.

All right.

That is what I'm assuming.

Are you misrepresenting yourself, Marilyn?

Are you sure you don't want to sell salsa and cookies?

Well, my dream is to have like a bakery, to own a bakery, but that's more like, okay, I get to bake from like this time to this time.

And then I just get the fun part of baking.

But

if I may, Your Honor, I have sold my cookies before, but they were to fundraise for the local food bank.

Okay.

All right.

You don't want to get into the salsa game.

No.

You're happy at your job, but you want to win this contest.

Yes.

What are the three categories again?

Spiciest, most unique, and what's the third one?

Best flavor.

Best flavor.

You felt you couldn't compete in best flavor?

Well, I feel like

the ones, the salsas that enter those categories are very kind of, how do I say this?

They're just salsas that are kind of just very well known around like the Mexican cuisine culture.

Right.

It's a refinement of classics.

You want to make your mark.

You want to do something different.

You want to get a little wild.

Yes.

You want to stick your thumb in watery grandma's eye.

But you have no, but you have no ideas.

And so you're going to the internet to get them.

And then you're going to go to that, you know, you're going to go to it and you're going to pass it off as your own.

I've got a new grandma and her name is Pinterest.

Yeah, I got a new grandma, and her name is J.

Kenji Lopez Alt.

We are fans of his.

So are we.

I wish Kenji was my grandma.

And

if I may, Your Honor, he did suggest me entering the contest with the avocado salsa that I make, which I really like.

I think it does have the potential.

Tell me about that.

Andrew mentioned that in passing.

Tell me about this.

This is the avocado tomatillo salsa.

Yes.

It's basically a smooth guac.

So it includes tomatillos, jalapenos, garlic, and avocado, and lemon.

Are the tomatillos cooked or?

Cooked.

Yes.

Cooked tomatillos.

Oh, and for people that enjoy cilantro, it also has cilantro.

And this is from your family as well?

Okay.

And

why not enter that in the contest?

The reason why I did not consider that recipe was

because

a few weeks ago we had a

potluck to celebrate birthdays and someone brought a salsa that was very similar to that.

So oh in the office.

Right.

So it's not very unique at this point.

Correct.

All right.

Put that one on the shelf.

Which kind of goes back to my original argument that a lot of the salsas that are entered for best taste and spiciest are not very unique.

So what I what I don't quite understand is that you're going in the category for uniqueness,

which is the one where you're really going to push the boundaries.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, ideally, this is one where whatever the oddball ingredient or the new spin,

it's an act of imagination.

So there is,

I agree with Andrew, that there's a little bit of a conceptual conflict.

with not coming up with the unique spin on your own, in other words, because you cook, you know about food, you know about berries, for heaven's sake.

Why do you need to go outside the family to the internet to get this satisfaction?

I would say it's just to kind of get my mind flowing.

Okay.

All right.

Andrew, what's it to you?

You don't work at this company.

You're not going to get the special hat that Marilyn gets to wear all year once she wins.

It's the ethics of it all.

And maybe I'm a bit of a nosy jerk, but I want to make sure that she's really highlighting the best things about herself and not something she finds on the internet.

She is an amazing and creative person, and she could come up with something that would knock everyone's socks off.

And yeah, but no cook and no chef creates a recipe out of nowhere.

They draw from their experience, they draw from their teaching, and they draw from other recipes.

That's what I keep saying, Your Honor.

I think inspiration is a wonderful thing, but I think copying step for step is a completely other topic.

I really think that she can come up with something that inspires her and make it her own.

But

she said that her reputation within her family is she can't follow the recipes properly anyway, and she's always improvising and adding.

And in her family, she's the two-watery salsa granddaughter.

It's going to change.

It's going to change as she makes it.

But I think with this competition, she was looking for the best reviewed recipes.

She was looking for something that was a proven winner so she could win this competition.

That's what she was looking for: is something where there was no chance of it coming out a little watery or coming out subpar.

She wanted to find the best out there on the internet.

Ultimately, though, Marilyn, isn't this particular category going to be decided on basically

the one big idea about this salsa?

I mean, if you were, if you were, if you were developing a recipe for most flavorful or most spicy, spicy, that's refinement.

But unique is invention, right?

So what does it matter that she's going to the internet just to get some inspiration, get some ideas?

She's not looking for technique.

She's looking for a big idea.

Would you agree?

Am I right, Marilyn, or no?

Yes.

Right.

And in terms of that big idea, whatever, Marilyn, you land on,

whoever you steal it from on the internet and then improvise it to be something new or whatever.

I don't want you to reveal it because I don't want you to to get scooped at the contest.

But when you present this Project X salsa, this wild conceptual salsa, this molecular salsa or whatever it's going to be, and if you base it on another recipe, what will you say to people who ask you, did you make this up?

I would give them the source of the recipe and I

have

done that in the past with other recipes that I use.

For example, I

have a a cookie recipe that my family really loves.

It's the cookie recipe that Andrew previously mentioned.

And

in the past, people have asked me for the recipe and I always source the

correct credit to the person that created this recipe.

And including during our annual holiday recipe exchange event.

I passed this recipe out, I think it was this past year, and I included the source of the recipe, even though I had slightly adjusted some of the ingredients.

Andrew, I see you're shaking your head.

That recipe is incredibly altered by Marilyn.

She has put countless alterations on it and spent years perfecting this cookie recipe and had a lot of joy in teaching our daughter her own variations on this.

And it's something that's deeply personal for her.

Now you're saying she shouldn't credit the recipe that you're doing?

I think she's changed it enough to have ownership.

Marilyn, do you think that if you were standing in that great room at the Berry Company,

you're shooting for most unique, someone asked you, this is great.

Where did it come from?

And you said Kenji Lopez Alt, you would still be in the running for Most Unique.

Yeah, I mean,

Right?

I can see Marilyn's really thinking it over.

Take your time.

Even if you said Kenji Lopez salt, but I added mangoes or made it saltier or less saltier.

I think it's important to give credit to the source of the recipe.

So

I think I would feel proud of the execution.

And

that's, I think.

But do you think that your colleagues would still vote for you for Most Unique if they knew that you had added mangoes or adjusted the salt and pepper in a recipe you got from the internet?

I think they would because they base it all on experience.

Who's your chief competition in this?

I have a couple of coworkers that have entered the contest before that have more experience with it.

This is my first time, so.

Who won for most unique last time?

For most unique, I have a coworker that

brought a salsa

that

was inspired by Indian cuisine.

And

did they invent the recipe?

Was that part of their?

We did not ask, so I don't know if it was

something that they've done in the past, they've done in the past or if something that

you've found.

I don't want to extrapolate too far, but it sounds like maybe

something from their family tradition

that they brought to it.

Correct.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

Is Andrew allowed to come to the judging?

No, it's for employees only.

Okay, so he's not going to stand up in the middle of the room and go, ask her who made it up.

Jacques!

I might protest in front of the building.

You might send in a letter.

Strongly worded letters, picketing signs.

He does know quite a few of my coworkers, so he might even text them or something.

Send in a gang of chanting nine-year-olds.

Marilyn, would you say that Andrew is a rule follower?

Generally, yes.

Even rules that he's made up in his own head?

Yes.

Would you say that you're a rule breaker?

Yes.

Wow.

Tell me a rule that you broke that you're allowed to say on the podcast.

Well,

I don't know if I should incriminate myself, Your Honor.

Okay.

I'm happy to incriminate her, Your Honor, if I may.

Let's give it a try.

And if it's frankly too...

you know, too salty for this podcast, we can take it out.

This was an attempted rule breaking that we were able to shut down uh for last year's pumpkin carving contest which was done remotely she wanted to submit photos of a pumpkin she had carved three years ago whoa

wow

i think i've heard everything i need to in order to make my decision i'm uh

i'm going to go

I'm going to go walk by Ruben Pain's house and think about his comic book collection.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

For the record, I carved the pumpkin and it just.

In the past, madam, in the past.

Marilyn, Andrew, please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Marilyn, how do you feel about your chances?

Not too good.

Why is that?

I feel like I

provided some reasoning behind the decision of wanting to enter the most unique category, but I feel like Andrew also provided a compelling argument.

That's very sweet and generous of you.

Andrew, how are you feeling?

Not too confident because I don't think I provided a compelling argument, but I think the facts of the case might stand for themselves.

Andrew, do you know that I once finished second in a competition at the Columbia Park Boys Club on Guerrero Street in San Francisco's Mission District?

What was the competition?

It was a costume competition.

I was dressed as a guy with a shark biting off his head, complete with a five-foot shark made out of chicken wire covered in foam.

And I lost to a guy who wore his dad's cop outfit.

But in the end, I did win one case of Diet Sprite and one case of Carnation Instant Breakfast.

So I did pretty good for myself.

I don't know if they're still passing out strawberry-flavored carnation instant breakfasts for contest winners at the Boys and Girls Club.

But if not, I say bring it back.

I can check into that.

I can check into that.

Andrew, Marilyn, we'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, Me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listen.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts

all right we're over 70 episodes into our show let's learn everything so let's do a quick progress check have we learned about quantum physics yes episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case.

What's going on for you?

Absolutely nothing, Jesse.

I mean, the truth truth is that I'm working a couple of different projects that I cannot talk about, one of which is with David Rees.

It may not be what you are thinking it is, or maybe it is.

I don't know.

And another is an acting job that I'm not at liberty to talk about right now.

So I've got my head down, shoulder to the grindstone, whatever, whatever.

I got no shows coming up or whatever.

So I'm just going to talk about two books that are coming out that I happen to read.

They're by friends of mine, and I also think they're really, really great.

The first is My Life in the Sunshine by Nabil Ayers.

Such an incredible, smart funny interesting writer moving writer and this book is a memoir that circles around his distant relationship with his estranged father the famous musician roy ayers

and what being distanced from him meant and how that defined his life and then how he redefined his own life it's really great my life in the sunshine and the other is a novel by my old friend my old mcsweeneys pal amy fussselman one of the wonderfulest and sweetest and funniest writers in the world.

Has a new novel out called The Means.

It's coming out in September, but you can pre-order it now.

Say at Books or Magic or

wherever you get your books, go get them.

Go get those books.

And otherwise, Dicktown is still out there, bit.ly slash Dick Town.

And all the ships at sea.

Jesse Thorne, what's going on with you?

Well, I've been reading a great book, A Biography of Ricky Henderson by the legendary

sports writer and sometime NPR contributor Howard Bryant.

It is so good.

And I'm interviewing Howard Bryant about Ricky Henderson for the Bullseye that comes out this week.

It's going to be, it's going to be really great.

I mean, it is a great book.

And Ricky Henderson is one of the most interesting figures in the history of baseball.

Cool.

It's really a story about Ricky, but it's also a story about Oakland, California, where Ricky, of course, starred for the Oakland days, but also was born and raised, and the Great Migration and lots of other amazing things.

But it's a really fascinating book, and I'm really excited about that interview.

And I also have out right now on Bullseye a really cool interview with Sam Jay, a comic who has a great show on HBO Max called Paws.

And Sam is so smart and funny, and it is a really fascinating conversation about comedy and identity and all kinds of cool stuff.

Sam is so cool.

And besides those things, Sean?

Yes.

It's summertime.

Get yourself a summertime gift at the Put This On Shop.

Use the code VintageJustice, and you'll get free shipping on almost everything.

We have lots of new things, new belt buckles, new pins of flags of the world,

all kinds of perfect gifts for yourself or someone else that are vintage and antique.

And of course, you know, if you've got a summer wedding coming up, why not get yourself or the groom or the bride or the wedding party a beautiful pair of cufflinks in the put this on shop?

Because goodness knows we have those.

What if you were to get a summary Madras pocket square designed by put this on shop itself?

Yeah, I recommend that as well.

I mean, the thing with cufflinks, John, is like if you go to the store to buy cufflinks,

you're going to get garbage and pay a lot of money.

Right.

Or if you get something good, pay an extraordinary amount of money.

You know, if you go to one of those luxury goods stores that actually makes some nice jewelry, you're going to pay crazy money.

And I have scoured the world looking for vintage cufflinks, and we have them and charge very reasonable prices for them.

So, whether you want, you know, silver or gold or

costume cufflinks, you can find them in the Put This On shop.

That's it, putthisonshop.com, and use that code VintageJustice for free shipping.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Shark biting Jesse Thorne's head.

You're going to love it in an instant.

It's the Carnation Instant Breakfast theme.

I wrote some new words to it.

Diet sprite, John.

Diet Sprite.

I wrote some new words to the Carnation Instant Breakfast theme, and therefore I'm not stealing.

but remixing.

It is, it is, I have made it into

a unique work of art.

It's not that you don't make a compelling argument, Andrew.

You make a confusing argument.

There's just something you just, on the one hand, you're saying that your wife is a cheat and a liar.

And on the other hand, you're saying that she's a really, really good and imaginative cook who's good at what she does and deserves to win on her own merits.

But then on the third hand, you say that she needs to go in blind and cannot use recipes for any inspiration, that somehow it's wrong.

I'm not sure exactly what you feel Marilyn is doing unethically here, why this eats at you.

And I don't care, because I'm going to make my own judgment about this situation.

I do eat salt and pepper salsa.

This is a new thing.

When I have my breakfast sandwich,

I need to have salt and pepper on every bite.

So I pile salt and pepper on my plate and then I dip my breakfast sandwich in it as I go.

Salt and pepper salsa.

You can have that, Marilyn.

Take it, but don't claim to have made it.

I'll give you credit.

Here's another one for you.

Salsa gelatin salad.

We've already talked at length on this podcast about the tomato soup salad that a listener enjoys every Christmas as a family tradition made of tomato soup, cream cheese, and gelatin, and diced peppers and onions.

Instead of tomato soup, you can use just chopped up tomatoes that you're stewed

or cooked in your grandmother's style.

It's not going to be watery because it's going to be solid.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Do your grandmother's salsa, but add jellet and put it in a mold.

Maybe float a hard-boiled egg in there.

What I'm saying to you here, Marilyn, is these are some unique salsas.

These are some head turners, some weird oddball salsas.

There's a lot of debate over what constitutes ownership of a recipe.

We've talked about it on the podcast before.

And certainly a printed recipe, you know, that's a copyright, basically.

But once you remix that recipe, almost literally, you know, and add and subtract things and get inspiration, then you're making it your own.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And if you are going into spiciest, or if you are going into, let's forget about spiciest.

Let's not talk about spiciest.

The people who enter the spiciest category are imaginationalist dopes.

Forget them.

But if you were going into the best flavor category, then I would suggest that what you're doing is exactly right.

Go to any source for salsa that you can choose, whether it is a recipe-tested recipe in a magazine online, or go to your own grandmother or mother and say, How do I make the salsa taste really good without being so salty and watery for once, or whatever it is?

That's refinement, right?

But in this best, in this most unique category, I kind of feel like this idea has to come from you, not from someone else.

I kind of feel like the core idea, the thing, because when you present, when you throw down that best unique salsa and they're like, holy moly, that looks like a wiggly jello mold.

It's like, yeah, it's salsa jello.

Judge John Hodgman told me to make it.

You should not be saying Judge John Hodgman told me to make it.

It should have been, it should be your thing, whatever that thing is.

Now, I love that you're looking and thinking about berries, strawberry salsa.

I bet there have been some out there.

You know what I mean?

But I don't know that anyone has a signature strawberry salsa.

And if I were you,

because you want, I think you want, even if you're not asked to say, I think you want to be able to say, this was my idea and my execution in the most unique category.

I think it's just part of that category, I think, personally.

And I think that you have enough, probably have enough experience making salsas and you have enough resources in terms of your family members to talk to.

And I think that's fair game, by the way.

Like family recipes,

that's you.

That belongs to you.

Family members are there to steal from.

You could probably figure out, well,

what are the basic components of a salsa?

And

what am I going to do with the strawberries, if anything?

And then, you know, basic components are like, you know, strawberry, chile, and then aromatics.

You know, you can have fun testing and coming up with the balances and get the flavor that is just right, the one that you like.

Do the research yourself.

That's great.

But I do think that whatever the high concept, because that's what we're talking about here in this salsa, it's got to come from you, either your own brain or family tradition or whatever.

Honestly, you should take your father-in-law's wedding salsa, the blackberry salsa.

Steal that.

That's part of your tradition.

That would make Andrew happy.

And make it the way your father-in-law makes it.

And I guarantee you, you're going to find five ways to make it better because it's your job in life to replace your parents and parents-in-law and improve upon what they give you.

But that would be another option, I think, where that would be just yours.

So, you can have salt and pepper salsa and not credit me.

That's fine.

You can have salsa molded soup jello salsa or whatever it is,

and you will not win.

So, in that case, you probably would want to blame me.

That's fine too.

But I think before you go back to the internet,

when's the contest coming up?

It'll be in a few weeks.

In a few weeks, we don't have a lot of time.

I think you got to enlist Andrew to help you as your kitchen assistant.

And whether it's a riff on your father-in-law's wedding salsa, because there's a whole emotional component to that too, right?

When your dad gets married and you're an adult, there's there's a story there, isn't there, Andrew?

Yeah, he's nodding.

Yeah, there's a story there.

That's a family tradition.

Or whether it's some idea that comes, that pops out of your own head.

Like, has anyone ever made a salsa out of this?

That blueberry lime salsa?

Tell you what, make that salsa.

I'll sell it for you in consignment in Maine.

But I do think while there's nothing wrong in going to printed sources, to refined techniques and so forth, when you're making a salsa within a particular tradition if your goal is to make a new tradition which is what new most unique is i know you got it i know you got it enough of the ideas already came out of you in this conversation and plus you already looked at the internet right so you can't take that stuff out of your head but the basic idea has to be yours has to be yours the key ingredient the key twist

i think does have to come from your imagination

And I know that you're inventive and imaginative because you really tried to cheat on that pumpkin carving.

That took a mind.

That took a mind.

This is the sound of a gabble.

This stuff's made in New York City.

New York City.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

How do you feel, Marilyn?

I feel like that is a reasonable.

judgment.

I can definitely see where both Andrew and the judge are coming from.

So I will have to reflect upon which category I do wish to enter.

How do you feel, Andrew?

I get to eat a bunch of salsa.

I'm really happy.

Yeah.

That sounds great.

That sounds great.

And I think I'm going to have to make that jell-o salsa and try to sneak that onto the back table of the competition just to see how that goes.

I mean, I don't know where your family is from, Andrew, but if it's like Illinois or Minnesota or something, that's your cultural twist on Salsa is adding jello, unflavored jell-o, maybe some mayonnaise.

It's a central Missouri twist right there.

Marilyn, can I give you a tip that I found always works in these kind of contests?

Yes.

Just borrow a cop uniform from your cop dad and put that on.

You'll win.

Didn't do any creativity, just wearing a gun belt.

Well, anyway,

Marilyn,

Andrew, thanks for joining us on the the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

In a minute, we'll have Swift Justice.

But first, our thanks to at Brack in the Box on Twitter for naming this week's episode.

If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter for those opportunities at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

While you're there, you can hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H.

O.

You can join the conversation conversation on Reddit, maximumfund.reddit.com on Facebook.

You can find us on Instagram at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman and follow us there.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmor.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

Let's handle some swift justice here.

Nathan says, my spouse pronounces the color between blue and red purple.

Purple.

Purple.

Purple?

Purple.

Purple.

I believe it's okay for me to tease her about this.

She would prefer I not tease her about this.

I'm going to say this.

Purmple?

I've never heard it before.

It is unusual, but no teasing.

Stop it with the teasing.

Don't like it.

Yeah.

In fact, I suggest, Nathan, you try calling it purple because I'm having a lot of fun.

Purple.

Yeah.

Why deny yourself the joy of purple?

Hey, Jesse Thornton, you know what makes this podcast go?

What's that, John?

Conflict.

Friction.

Oh, I thought it was Carnaha Dovada.

That as well.

And spicy salsa.

No, we need your disputes.

It could be anything.

Dispute between you and your spouse or partner.

It could be a dispute between you and your sibling.

It could be

between you and your co-worker.

Could be a dispute between you and your old college friend.

What might it be?

Only you know.

Once you know, let us know, won't you, at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

Send them in.

I love reading them.

No case is too small.

And no case is too big either.

Yeah, if you're the Attorney General of New York, get at us.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

Yeah, we'll take some of that caseload.

We love to get that caseload.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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