Numerical Order in the Court

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, numerical order in the court.

Sabina brings the case against her husband, Cameron.

Sabina says she can count to one million if she tried, but Cameron doesn't think she could do it.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise.

Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

It's kind of funny.

You know, this whole time I felt like I've been in a power position.

And that sounds kind of crazy, but I've always known kind of what to say or what to do.

But at that moment, I just kind of lost all control.

And then, you know, I said the number.

And then it was like a big bubble just kind of popping on me.

At one time, I just said it and went with it.

You know, it's a weird emotion.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Sabina Cameron, Cameron, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

Yeah.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's already counted to all the numbers he wanted to?

Yes.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

39, my eternal age.

That's correct.

That's where I stopped counting, just like Jack Benny, which shows that I'm much older than 39.

Sabina, Cameron, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment on one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this fake internet courtroom?

Cameron, you guess first, please.

The only thing I can think of that was

a sudden expression of a number was

maybe the first book in the Discworld series.

First book in the Discworld

series.

The first in one million volumes correct in the discworld series

approximately one million books in that i've never read a disc world so it would be weird if that were the answer but i'm putting it down anyway first disc that's what i'm putting in it jesse thorn if you don't know um that's a very very famous fantasy series with a million volumes about fantasy frolf disc world

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

Frolf.

Right, Frolf.

All right, Sabina, your turn to guess.

Frolf, for folks who don't know, is something they do over there at the Hahamangna State Park where I'm walking around with my five-year-old and they throw frisbees at us.

Yeah.

But in Fantasy Frolf, it's played by Frelfs.

Got it.

Told you.

I told you I'm older than 39.

Sabina, what is your guess, if I may ask?

I'm going to guess

some contestant on like the price is right.

Some contestant on the price is

right.

That is not correct.

So I'm just going to put in Cool Hand Luke for you, if you don't mind.

Perfect.

Cool Hand Luke.

And I'm writing that down.

And oh my gosh, all guesses are wrong.

Even Cool Hand Luke.

Sorry, Sabina.

Do you know why I suggested Cool Hand Luke?

I do not.

That's a Paul Newman movie.

And he plays a prisoner

in a southern prison.

And at one point, the prisoners all bet.

He claims that he can eat 50 eggs in an hour, 50 hard-boiled eggs in an hour.

It's a big scene.

And all the prisoners say, no one's ever done it.

And to be perfectly honest with you, it's been so long since I've seen that movie.

I don't know if he did it or not.

I don't think he did it.

It was gross.

But then,

my wife, who is a whole human being in her own right, having heard of this movie, Cool Hand Luke, boldly stated to me and a large group of friends many years ago, well, yeah, I could eat 50 eggs.

You've met the person I'm talking about, right, Jesse Thorne?

Yeah, I've met that person.

It's nothing against her.

No one can eat 50 eggs.

But the sheer optimism, because her argument was, I could eat 50 eggs because it's easy.

You would eat one and then two and then three and then four.

A sense that there is no cumulative effect.

She has a strong will.

She has a strong will and she knows how to count to 50.

And when finally she began to accept, well, maybe not 50 eggs, she said, well, I could definitely eat 50 heads of iceberg lettuce.

Can't do that either, I suspect.

Don't try it, please.

So that was why I suggested that guess for you, but that is not correct.

And obviously, this world is not correct.

The correct answer is that I was quoting one

Jeremy Harper of Birmingham, Alabama.

Jeremy Harper in the year 2007 set the Guinness World Record Holder for highest number counted to out loud when he counted to one million.

He stood in his Birmingham, Alabama apartment and turned on his webcam, which is all we had back then.

And he counted for approximately 16 hours a day

for 89 days.

Well, now I feel embarrassed because I'm familiar with Mr.

Harper's work, having looked him up for this exact argument.

For this exact argument.

I mean, it's proof it can be done.

And specifically, if you were to have guessed Jeremy Harper, I would have had to play a little bit of hardball to use a sports metaphor and say, okay, but what interview is this from?

And you probably would not have guessed that this is from a November 22nd, 2007 interview of Jeremy Harper on the late and departed NPR show, The Bryant Park Project, between Mr.

Harper and Allison Stewart and our friend Luke Burbank.

But during that interview, Jeremy Harper also said, The cameras were on me the whole time.

I think that's what really kept me sane.

If I had been locked in my apartment and counted to a million and no one was watching, I would certainly have lost my mind.

So I'm not sure that this is evidence for or against your claim, this Jeremy Harper person, but let's hear your case.

What do you want to do?

You want to count to 1 million?

I don't necessarily want to count to 1 million.

I would like Cameron to acknowledge that I could count to 1 million.

How did this start?

I see here you both live in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

We do, yes.

We live here together with our camp.

Oh, go ahead.

With what?

Oh, with our dog and cat.

I presume you've sent in a photo of the dog and cat.

We have.

And this is a very.

This is Chloe the dog and Marzipan the cat, which we put on our Instagram page at judgejohngman on Instagram, as well as our show page at maximumfund.org.

And they are adorable.

Marzipan the cat has put all of his feet and tails directly onto Chloe's chin.

And Chloe is very tolerant of it.

Okay, you live in Ann Arbor together.

It says here you met at Zingerman's Deli.

We did.

You may have packaged up a mail order product that I ordered from there once or another.

We very well may have.

I went to Zingerman's Deli the last time I was in Ann Arbor, and it was very good.

And then you got together.

Are you wedded?

We are wedded.

You are wedded.

Wedded cohabitants?

I think we're coming up on our second anniversary officially in August.

All right.

The second of I trust a million.

Exactly.

And how did it come up that you started thinking that you could, or maybe secretly wanted to, but definitely could, count to one million, Sabina?

I think we were just hanging out, and

I think I started the conversation as, I wonder how high you could humanly count.

At which point I looked up

how high, well, what's the record record for highest counted out loud?

Right.

The recorded Guinness record in any case.

Yes.

And I found, you know, Jeremy Harper and his 1 million record.

And upon reading that, I think I said out loud, I could count, I could count to a million, much like your wife with the eggs.

Yeah.

Just count one and then two, then three, then four, and just keep going until you get to it.

Exactly.

It seemed very doable to me.

You know, it's not that I think it would be easy.

I just think that it is doable.

And Cameron was very, as I recall, vehemently against this in a way that surprised me

because I thought he would kind of agree that a million is very doable.

I'm going to let Cameron speak for himself in a moment, but since everyone has their own point of view, please do your best imitation of Cameron.

after you heard you say, I could easily count to a million, or I could count to a million.

What he say in your memory?

And please do his voice.

Okay, all right, okay.

What are you talking about?

You couldn't count to a million, Sabina.

You have all these, you know, problems focusing on things, and you think that you can spend, you know, days at a time counting, you know, for hours every day, counting to a million.

You couldn't do it.

You just couldn't do it.

That was a great performance.

I felt a lot pouring off of that a lot of emotion and energy

cameron how would you rate that performance a plus

yeah yeah uh like so many things sabina does it's it's it was just incredible

um

would you say that it is an accurate representation of your reaction to her uh close close i i don't think i was quite as pointed, but

I think the phrase that I used was you absolutely could not, could not do that.

I will now say, Sabina, as much as I appreciated your interpretation of Cameron, you didn't quite catch his laconic evasiveness.

I think that's new.

I don't think that was there originally.

Cameron, why don't you think Sabina can count to one million?

I think it's an incredibly challenging task.

You know, big props to

Jeremy Harper.

Say his name.

Jeremy Harper.

Okay.

National hero.

Jeremy Harper.

I mean, the task is so much broader than

counting to a million.

I'm confident that Sabina knows all of the numbers.

I can say that.

Wow.

Yeah.

So stipulated.

That's the most damnably faintest praise I've ever heard.

You're confident she's not, you know, one of my kids at age four claiming that

he has as many cookies as he has as he could has.

He has 15 cookies.

Oh, I'm glad that you agree that your wife is numerate.

But

that wasn't the critique that Sabina brought up in her impersonation of you.

The critique was that you said she's too...

easily distracted or something.

Speak to that for a moment, please.

Yeah.

well,

there's a lot that I think goes into counting to a million, mostly just sheer

time

and effort.

And

yeah, I think Sabina severely underestimates

just how much effort would be involved in the task.

But in Sabina's imitation of you,

we may read back in the record,

Sabina imitated you saying, what was it, Sabina?

Basically, you're too, you get too easily distracted.

Wasn't that what you said, Sabina?

Something like that?

Yeah, easily distracted, you know, unable to commit long-term to many things.

I think, you know, I do have ADHD.

I'm, you know, diagnosed.

And so that is maybe a part of,

you know, Cameron's evidence for these things.

I would not say that he's wrong.

Cameron, is this representation true that you said or feel that Sabina is too easily distracted to commit to the project of saying

all

one through one million numbers?

I think it was one of my supporting arguments at the time.

Right.

Supporting of you.

Supporting of me.

Negging of her.

Yes.

I understand.

How does it make you feel, Sabina, when you, when Cameron so thoroughly did not believe in your capabilities?

Well, like I said, I was surprised

because I kind of had expected him to just, you know, quietly agree with me.

But it definitely, it felt bad because Cam usually is kind of like my hype man.

He'll usually tell me that I can, in fact, do anything.

And so this felt like a real...

like a real sting

that he was telling me that I could not do this thing that I had,

you know, I did, I do believe would be possible for me to do.

It felt like, you know, some kind of challenge or judgment on me as a person.

What are some of the things that Cameron has helped you feel capable of doing?

All kinds of stuff.

I mean, I just got a new job and he was super great,

you know, hyping me up to negotiate for salary.

Did he teach you what numbers were so that you could do that?

Exactly.

He helped me count all the way to the number that I was hoping to get.

He also, you know, I have struggled with self-esteem issues and he's always, you know, my number one fan.

And, you know, in trying to address some of those issues, sometimes I'll be like, wow, I look really great today.

And he'll always agree.

and say something like, yeah, you look amazing.

You're the best.

You know, just really, really positive, supportive stuff.

So this immediate reaction that no, you could could not do what you proposed to do was an outlier for Cameron.

He's normally a supportive non-monster of a spouse.

I would say so.

I mean, we definitely get into, you know, kind of hypothetical arguments

regularly.

Like what?

There's a couple.

Usually I'm kind of the instigator of them.

So I, in the past, we have argued about

if

relatedly, if numbers are real.

Wow.

What's happening in Ann Arbor?

This is the Ann Arbor I remember.

Not a lot, apparently.

I'll tell you what numbers are real in Ann Arbor, it seems like to me.

420.

Got them.

No comment, right?

Sounds like that to me in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

I don't think

that number was involved with the number discussion.

Uh-huh.

Are numbers real?

And you're not talking about the mathematical term real numbers as opposed to imaginary numbers.

No.

Right.

I'm talking about.

Whether they're even there, man.

They're, you know.

What was the argument?

What side did you take?

Numbers are not real?

I took the side of numbers are not real.

And, you know, to me, it was more of an exercise.

It wasn't necessarily that I was taking a hardline stance.

And what is the argument exactly?

That they're just

a human construct?

Yeah, like, you know,

it's a measurement, but measurements aren't real either.

They're just, you know, what we use

in our own heads to,

you know, break things apart.

Well,

we count in base 10 probably because we've got 10 fingers.

Right.

Right.

And if we had evolved differently and we had

12 fingers, we would probably count and base 12.

Right.

Right.

I see your point.

And Cameron, you took the other the other side of this argument.

Yeah.

And go ahead and say your side.

I think numbers are real.

It's going to be controversial, but I think.

I don't think so.

I think numbers are.

I think that's really the normie position.

Do you know what what I mean?

That's really the normie position.

The numbers are real.

I feel like that's the position.

That's not an Ann Arbor position.

Do you know what I mean?

That's like,

Jesse Thorne, what's the most boring town in America?

Don't put me, don't make me.

No.

All right, then, all right.

I'll put it back on them.

Sabina, what is the most boring town in Michigan?

Ooh, well,

I'll get a lot of flags for this.

The most normy town in Michigan.

I'm from a town just south of Ann Arbor called Celine,

and it's got to be in the running.

Celine, yeah.

Numbers are real is a real Celine, Michigan way of thinking, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Right down the middle.

This is what the institutions told us.

We were taught it in school.

It's got to be real.

I'll tell you, Judge Hodgman, that I occasionally visit Bakersfield, California,

where there's a great ice cream place.

Right.

And

I ran into some people from Bakersfield who were excited because they knew that I am sometimes in Bakersfield.

And I said to them, Okay, so I've been to that great ice cream place.

What else is cool in Bakersfield?

Like, what else should I check out?

And they said,

Yeah, it was great talking with you about Bakersfield.

Numbers are real in Bakersfield as well.

So,

Cameron, you got, what's your argument for why numbers are real?

Obviously,

they're a construct of consciousness.

Sure.

I guess my argument for why numbers are real is that, you know,

somewhere in the fabric of the universe, things are divisible.

Things are countable.

All right.

Now we're getting back to some of that Ann Arbor stuff.

There you you go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Somewhere in the galaxy that's just an atom on my fingernail.

Stuff is just divisible, you know.

If things exist, then they can be counted, and that's numbers.

I don't know.

They can be, but they don't.

Lots of things go uncounted by lots of creatures on Earth.

I'm just saying, I'm with Sabina on this one.

Numbers are not real.

Especially imaginary numbers.

The square root of negative one.

Love that one.

Love that one.

Anyway, any other hypotheticals?

Well,

Cam might be able to tell the other major one.

All right, Cam.

Better.

This one's for you to win.

I'm going to judge all these hypotheticals.

Well, if I didn't sound like a monster earlier.

You don't sound like a monster.

Couldn't count to one million.

We're going to get to the bottom of that.

That's an aberration.

That's clearly established as an aberration in your relationship.

You're obviously in love.

You're obviously supportive of each other.

You have a great time together in Ann Arbor.

I'm not calling you a monster.

We're going to deal with that outlier in a minute.

Go ahead and just state your hypothetical.

So, my hypothetical.

My hypothesis is you're going to win this one.

I think I'm going to judge in your favor.

Yeah, that's my hypothesis.

That's great to hear.

Yeah.

Let's put it to the test.

My big hypothetical that

is an argument that spawned at Zingerman's during quiet nights of waiting for phones to ring.

Perfect conditions for philosophy.

Is that

anyone,

me, but anyone,

could probably take a dog in a fight.

One-on-one.

Wow.

Yeah, so

I'm really great.

I'm just stopped right there.

I've just stopped right there.

Well then, it's settled.

The thing about me you don't understand is I'm really great.

But

this argument has lots of folks on both sides, both for and against my side.

But Sabina is very firmly on the side of dogs in the dog combat hypothetical.

And let's just say fight till surrender, shall we?

Right.

Yeah.

You could fight off a dog

that was attacking you, or the dog could fight you off if you were attacking it.

Yes.

And is this a universal or just for Cameron the Great?

I think it's a universal.

I think most adults could probably win that fight.

And what about the dog?

Is there a particular style of dog that we're talking about here?

This is this is the

this is what comes up every time.

Yeah, obviously.

You would know.

Yeah, you would you would assume just as there are there are great Camerons, as there are some mediocre Camerons,

there are large Camerons and small Camerons.

There are different kinds of dogs with different temperaments and different tooth sizes.

This is like a salmon saying he could beat a bird in a fight.

Salmon versus bird.

The ultimate natural contest.

I think my argument is that, yeah, yeah, most dogs,

most every dog could be beat by most every adult person.

I think I've talked him up to a German Shepherd at one point.

If it's a trained German Shepherd, I don't care how great Cameron is, you're going down.

You're going to be screaming and running as quickly as possible.

I mean,

agreed.

I'm not going to have a great time.

But I think I can walk away from that one.

Well,

you proved my hypothesis wrong.

No.

Most you could beat most dogs in combat to surrender.

I mean, now we're talking about math again, right?

Because we need to know what percentage of dogs are little scruffy fellers versus the percentage of dogs that are large, meaty, toothy, and trained.

Shoot.

You know what?

Sabina, I hate to say this because I love dogs and I don't even like thinking about this situation.

It's creepy and weird.

But that's what comes up late at night at Zingerman's.

That's where the mind goes.

Could I survive most dogs?

And the truth is,

just based on the percentage of dogs that are both large enough

and trained

by mean people to be mean.

I think that's not most dogs.

I think most dogs just want to lick you and be happy, which is why are you fighting them anyway, Cameron?

Weird.

And a lot of them

are very small and don't deserve to get into these fights.

No dogs do.

Okay, I got a rule in Cameron's favor on that one.

Numbers are not real, and leave dogs alone.

Those are my rulings.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

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Now, let's get back to this thing about counting to a million.

Cameron, it has been established, stipulated by Sabina that you are a supportive spouse, and it seems to me that you are.

Why do you think you reacted so quickly

and so definitively to her claim that she could count to 1 million?

And Sabina, how did you feel when he reacted that quickly?

Cameron, you go first.

Why?

Why did this bother you?

Why did this get under your skin?

I think I just felt it was like a real

understatement of the task

of what it would actually take to count to one million.

Were you concerned that she was actually going to undertake it?

More and more.

More and more.

And I think a big part of that is Sabina's nature to

prove you wrong.

Prove me wrong.

Yeah.

Be a little bit of a contrarian.

Exactly.

To beat you in combat like a dog.

To beat me in combat.

How long ago did this happen again?

This argument?

Yeah, count to a million.

The one we're talking about right now, why we're here.

When did that happen?

Like a month ago.

Oh, okay.

So it's not been building for years.

No, but it's been a pretty consistent,

consistent conversation in our lives since it first got brought up.

Sabina, how did you feel when Cameron reacted so immediately and so definitively saying that you could not do it?

Yeah, it felt kind of

hurtful that it did seem like he was

critiquing my judgment.

and saying that I hadn't truly thought about what it would take.

You know, it felt kind of flippant or that he thought I was being flippant, maybe.

Those of us in the late-night Zingerman schools of philosophical ponderings have long considered the human and psychic toll that it would take to count to one million.

Oh, my dear summer child, you've never even thought of what you're going to need to do to hydrate during this many, many days of counting.

That kind of vibe?

And embarrassingly, hydration is an issue for me.

Oh, in life.

In life, yes.

Do you tend to forget to hydrate?

I'm going to have a drink of water now.

Exactly.

You want to take a little break?

Get a little water, Sabina?

I'm okay right now.

Do you have something there?

Do you have water?

I have an energy drink.

That's fine.

Take a sip.

All right, I'll take a sip.

Cameron, do you have like a goblet of steaming dog's blood there?

I have a glass of water.

Okay, which is close.

Everybody hydrate.

Everyone hydrate.

Okay, so sabina do you uh do you have difficulty uh hydrating keeping hydrated i do it's easy i feel like it's very easy to forget to drink water it is um

it is yeah unlike i don't think that relates to the counting because you know you don't forget that you're in the middle of counting let me ask you this question Was Cameron right?

Did you underestimate the time and effort it was going to take when you first made the claim?

This isn't to say that you don't know the time and effort it would take now that you've done some research into the exploits of Jeremy Harper of Birmingham, Alabama.

Now you know.

But at the time, did you know that it would take 16 hours a day for 89 days?

Like, would you have imagined that?

I wouldn't have.

I think there was a small period of time in between what I first imagined, which was maybe an underestimate.

What was your first estimate?

I'll tell you what mine is.

I don't even write it down, but I was like, I don't know, four days?

I was very under.

What was your estimate?

I think it would have been around maybe like four to seven days.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's what a million feels like to me.

But I guess we're just innumerate fools compared to Cameron.

There's also, I do think, I don't know how fast Jeremy Harper was counting, but there's definitely a part of me.

that feels like if I could just count a little faster, I could get it done.

You know, I could cut cut that time down.

Hang on a second.

I'm going to time you.

Do faster than Jeremy Harper.

Oh, no,

I haven't practiced this.

Like, and also, Jeremy Harper on day one is very different than Jeremy Harper on day 88.

That's fair.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Not only because of the accumulated exhaustion and I think mental exhaustion, but also the numbers are longer.

So I'm going to time, just as a baseline, right?

We're going to do right in the middle.

I want you to count, and I'm going to give you a cue.

I'm going to time you.

I want you to count from 550,000

to 570,000.

That's 20 units.

You ready?

I'll do my best.

550,000, 550,001, 550,000.

Oh, no, that's, sorry.

I'm asking you to count 20,000 numbers.

That's on me.

I apologize.

I was going to try.

Here I am bragging about all this math I know.

Count 20 real number

intervals up from 500,000.

So 500,000 one, 500,002, 500,003.

And you know what?

I'm going to make it a little harder on you.

550,001, 550,002, okay?

Take a moment.

You want to have another drink of energy drink?

Sure.

Okay.

You ready?

I'm ready.

I'm going to say ready, set, go, and you start on

Ready, set,

go.

550,000 and 1, 550,000 2, 550,000 3, 550,000 and 4, 550,000 and 5, 550,000 6, 550,000 and 7, 550,000 and 8, 550,000 and 9, 550,000, 550,000, 550,000 12, 550, 13, 550,014, 550,000 15, 550,016, 550,000 17, 550,018, 550,019, 550,020.

Stop.

Hold on.

I'm getting a call.

I'm getting a call.

It's the MacArthur Foundation.

Oh, hello?

One of your famous genius grants?

Oh, you call them MacArthur Grants and don't use the word genius.

Yeah,

for John Hodgman for thinking of the idea of having Sabina count a bunch on our show.

show.

Oh, fair enough.

John, they want to give you an award

for

your contributions to American culture for having Sabina do a long series of number counts.

Well, honestly, I thought they were calling for Sabina.

So I'm going to say that.

No,

they said that lots of people,

mostly preschoolers, do that.

But you were the first one to put it on a podcast.

Look, all I was trying to do is give Cameron.

They said it was an incredible innovation in preventing people from enjoying podcasts.

All I was trying to do was

give Cameron a preview of his life for the next 89 days.

16 hours a day.

First of all, Sabina, let me ask you, how did you feel about that?

That 20 count?

How did you feel at the end of it?

Exhilarated, ready to keep going for another 15 hours and

59

minutes and 30 seconds?

Excuse me, 29 seconds?

I didn't feel bad about it.

I felt pretty good about that,

you know, interval.

It was a great run.

But I do think that,

you know, I would tire quickly trying to go at that pace.

It was a great run.

You had a great run.

Thank you.

Good news.

You counted those 20 numbers in 30 seconds, right?

Now, according to my calculations, done entirely off mic and very slowly and ponderously, if Jeremy Harper counted to a million in 89 days, 16 hours a day, that is 1,424 hours counting total.

At 20 numbers in 30 seconds, that's 1.5

million seconds overall, which is only 417 hours.

So you got him beat at that pace.

He must have slowed down, or I got some numbers wrong somewhere.

Don't write me letters.

But we're just going to go ahead and say 417 hours.

And how many hours a day do you want to work at counting?

We'll say eight.

417 hours.

That's good.

That's a, that's a union workday

divided by eight hour increments equals 52 days.

You think you can keep that pace up for 52 days?

Are you up to it?

You know, I've also thought about writing a program that would flash the number, you know, in front of me.

And I think that that that would help me keep the pace.

Yeah, no, I bet that would make the experience a lot better.

Yeah.

If you were sitting in a room and a computer was flashing numbers at you

and you couldn't miss one, not even for a second in an eight hour shift, or you would fall behind.

And of course, you couldn't hydrate in any of those eight hours because you're counting too fast.

I don't know what to say.

I don't want to stamp in your dreams like Cameron has done.

I would like to say I'm not trying to necessarily beat the record.

I just want to get to a million.

Do you really want to do this or do you want Cameron to acknowledge that it's possible?

I mean, I definitely want Cameron to acknowledge that it's possible,

first and foremost.

But the more I talk about it, the more I do kind of want to do it.

Why is this one of all the hypotheticals that we discussed and the ones that we haven't discussed

the big deal for you?

Big enough to bring onto a podcast, for example?

I think

it it just feels very doable to me.

It's not, there's no limiting factors, really.

Like, even if I took one hour every day to count out loud, I could eventually get to a million doing that.

I think.

Do you know what?

I agree with you.

Cameron, you have to agree with that, right?

Yeah, yeah.

You still seem like, you still seem like you don't believe it, though.

I don't know anyone who wants to spend an hour a day counting.

You do know know someone.

She's right here.

Sabina.

Yeah.

All right.

If I were to rule in your favor, Sabina, what would you have me rule?

I would like you to rule against Cameron telling me that I cannot do this.

All right.

So a gag order is, if you will.

Cameron, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

I'm comfortable with Sabina claiming that she can can count to a million.

I just would like to be allowed to say that I don't think that that is possible.

Then you're not comfortable with it.

No, no, I would just like to be able to argue my

case.

I would like this argument, like all hypothetical arguments, to live forever unanswerable.

Okay, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my Donald Duxian mathematical land

that lives inside my mind and ponder this further.

It's kind of the Zingerman's midnight deli of my mind.

And I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Cameron, how do you feel about your chances here?

I think I feel okay.

I think putting into perspective the

enormity of the task has helped my side quite a bit.

Yeah.

How do you feel, Sabina?

I do not feel fantastic about my chances.

I think that

from the judge's reference on

it seems that

maybe he has already experienced a situation like this with his own wife.

I would not accuse him of bias, but I don't feel my chances are good.

How many eggs do you think you could eat?

I'm going to plead the fifth on that one.

Five eggs?

Definitely over five, maybe under 50, but somewhere in between those two.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about the eggs and everything else when we come back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show, Let's Learn Everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast, and we want to remind you that we are headed to New York City, Lincoln Center, on June 29th, 2022.

This is going to be an extraordinary program.

Our friend Gene Gray is going to be there.

It is outdoors and free of charge.

Free of

charge.

You can make reservations for it.

I encourage you to do so.

Yeah.

You don't have to pay.

Not a penny.

Just go to bit.ly slash jjho Lincoln.

That's J-J-H-O-L-I-N-C-O-L-N, all capital letters.

Or use your search engine and just search Judge John Hodgman Lincoln Center.

We'll be outside under the stars.

And Jesse Thorne,

look,

weather is changeable, especially these days.

But I'm looking on the long-term almanac here.

You know what I'm seeing predicted for the 29th of June?

What's that?

Stars, beautiful starlight, not a cloud in the sky.

It says here, the most perfect night of all nights.

Wow, that's extraordinary.

I know.

So June 29th at Lincoln Center in New York City, not only can you cede the Judge John Hodgman program for free, you can also enjoy the most perfect night of all nights.

The most perfect night of all nights in the year 2022.

It sounds like people in the New York area shouldn't just go to the show.

They should get together a big gang of people to go to the show because they'll look like a real hero to all their friends.

They shouldn't go to the show.

They should flock to the show.

Get a bunch of friends together and come and enjoy the night with us.

And if you have disputes, by the way, we need litigants for the show.

Another way to enjoy the Judge John Hodgman live show under the stars at Lincoln Center for free is on stage.

If you have a dispute and you're coming to the show and your fellow disputant will also be there, let us know, won't you?

By just going to maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

Now, Jesse Thorne, what's that bit.ly again for reserving tickets to the show?

No one can remember.

They're just searching for Judge John Hodgman, Lincoln Center.

June 29th, Under the Stars, free of charge.

Can I drop one more plug here, John?

Yeah.

Big show in New York on June 30th.

What's that?

Dan McCoy and I are going to see company on Broadway.

Just want to see Patty Lapone live, you know.

Wow.

Dan McCoy from the Fluffhouse and I are going to see company, so it's going to be pretty cool.

Oh, that's very exciting.

Broadway.

You know what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

By the way, you're not allowed to get on stage when you're seeing a Broadway show.

I've been rehearsing that number.

I know.

The rules are still, you can't get on stage.

That hasn't changed.

Dan McCoy and I, the podcasters who brunch.

But the Judge John Hodgman show at Lincoln Center, you can get on stage if you have a dispute to bring to us.

Please, as I say, once again, Judge John Hodgman, live justice, June 29th at Lincoln Center, free of charge and under the starge.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Please rise as MacArthur Grant winner Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

One last thing, Sabina.

You say you could eat between five and fifty eggs?

I believe so.

Count them for me, please.

Backwards from 50 to 5.

50 eggs, 49 eggs, etc.

No, no, don't do that.

Don't do that.

Even though I trust many podcast listeners would be delighted to hear it.

Long ago, in an ancient past,

when I was but younger than 39, by a fair margin, I wrote a book called The Areas of My Expertise.

And in that book, The Areas of My Expertise, as a gag, as a visual gag in a book, I made up and listed 700 nicknames.

for the rail traveling hobos of the early to mid-20th century.

And for the audiobook edition, I recorded that list of 700 hobo nicknames.

And that was how I received my first MacArthur grant

because everyone loved it.

Quite honestly, I don't think that I would have gone on the daily show had I not done that stunt.

So I'm here first and foremost to defend not just me, Sabina, but you and the art of counting out loud as entertainment.

Where would we be without the count on Sesame Street?

It's a wonderful gag that everyone enjoys.

That's why I am sharing with you, Sabina, this MacArthur grant.

Now,

let me count out the money that we both won.

$1 for you, $1 for me.

$2 for you, $2 for me.

Numbers, as we've discussed, are, sorry, Cameron, not real.

They are a concept.

They are an expression of our animal imaginations.

And I say animal, because as far as I know, there may be animals that do count.

I bet there probably are.

But certainly the most county animal is the human race.

And it is an invention.

But I can tell you this.

From counting 700 hobo nicknames, I can tell you that numbers are definitely real when you're saying them out loud.

Then they are a task and a chore.

When you are counting a mere 700 hobo nicknames, and these things were not things that I was making up on the spot, I was just reading from a list as you are talking about doing, Sabina.

Reading from a list that the computer is giving you, just happens to be all numbers instead of some number and then like hobo gym flapjack or whatever.

When I read those numbers in sequence, around 500 and 550 in that area, kind of where I, the mid-area where I told you to count, that's for me, it was a little bit later.

I started to lose sense of time, place, and my own body.

It was an auto-hypnotic experience that was not pleasant and truly was challenging.

And the whole thing, that was just emotional and mental toll and a little bit of vocal toll.

But after 53 minutes of counting, when I finally got it done, I didn't know where I was.

I mean, I'm not exaggerating.

It was a very, very strange event.

It wasn't entirely unpleasant because I was making Jonathan Colton play guitar behind me the entire time.

So I got to listen to his music and bring him down with me.

So

when I heard

of your quest to speak numbers one through one million, I did think of that claim that one could eat 50 eggs, but I mostly thought of the physical and emotional toll of actually doing it and how unpleasant that would be.

It's a hard thing to do.

But none of that means that you're incapable of it.

Cameron, I don't understand why this is the hill that you want to fight a dog and die on.

Because obviously you love and support Sabina in every other way.

And all she's asking you to do is to stop saying she can't do it.

And you're like, I accept that she can do it, but I want to to keep saying that she can't.

That's something that I couldn't quite get to the crux of here.

And maybe the two of you need to talk it through or do some thinking about why this,

I mean, it could be that you're simply afraid that she will try it, and then it will be very disruptive and boring in your household for a long time.

And I appreciate most of the time your argument about leaving hypotheticals hypothetical, right?

That's kind of the fun of them, and they're untestable.

And I don't want you to be going around wrestling with dogs, you know.

Let the mystery be as the song goes.

That's the mindset you have at the middle of the night in Zingerman's or whenever it was.

Contemplate the mystery and leave it be.

But at this point, the mystery now has a personal stake because you have told your most beloved human.

You are incapable of this,

even if you trick yourself into it.

Even if I sort of say, yeah, probably, maybe you could do it.

She knows you believe that she can't.

This is a mystery that is detrimental to your relationship.

And therefore,

the mystery must be solved.

You must do it, Sabina.

You must count to one million.

But I don't want you to destroy your relationship or your mind

or lose your job or whatever.

One hour a day.

And

if you take a day off or three,

it's fine.

Keep a personal journal of counting to one million.

You know what?

I don't care how long it takes you.

I don't care how long it takes you because we need to cure this breach of faith in your relationship.

We need Cameron to not merely say, I think you can do it, but say, you got me.

You did it.

Are you willing to do this?

Are you willing to accept this ruling, Sabina, because this is the time to bail out?

This is the time to bail.

Before I hit this gavel,

you got to count into

your voice memo or whatever on your phone.

And I don't care how long, honestly, I don't care how long it takes.

Like an hour a day, for however many days, sequentially, or 20 minutes a day, and you only do it on Mondays.

I don't care.

I'll tell you this.

My wife could eat 50 eggs if she ate one egg a day for 50 days, absolutely.

But I definitely think if you set your mind to it within a period of time, you will reach a million.

You will not give up.

And you can do it.

So do you feel like doing it?

Or do you not feel like doing it?

Because no one is, there's no reason to do it.

What are my chances of getting on the daily show if I do it?

Well, it's a different host now.

I don't know what their requirements are.

I don't think I would go on the daily show, as you can probably tell.

I don't think I would go on the daily show.

But I'll tell you what, save those voice memos, send them into us.

We'll play some of them.

Get some more MacArthur money.

You know what I'm talking about?

I think that I can do it.

I think that I'm willing to accept this.

I'm not even sure whose side I'm ruling on at this point, but this is my judgment.

Go and do it.

This is the sound of a gabble.

One, two, three, four, five.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Sabina, how do you feel?

I'm very surprised.

I was not expecting that ruling, but I am kind of excited

to actually go after this

per the judge's orders.

Do you have other priorities in your life?

Not important ones.

Yeah, and I guess not anymore.

Cameron, how are you feeling?

So good.

I'm interested to see

how Sabina approaches the task, now that we know she will do it.

You're interested in never seeing your partner again.

I'm so uninterested in that.

She's going to spend the rest of her life counting.

There's a lot of dread.

A lot of dread on this side.

No, it's not going to interrupt your life.

I mean, Sabina, I'm ordering you not to interrupt your life for this.

It's a side hustle, purely.

And I'm glad you feel good because honestly, Cameron, the way I took this was

you wanted to order Sabina to put up or shut up.

And Sabina, you just wanted Cameron to shut up.

And I guess I'm ordering in Cameron's favor in this regard.

Prove that you can do it.

I bet you can.

Cameron Sabina, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

In a moment, we'll have Swift Justice.

First, our thanks to Twitter user at LexFry for naming this week's episode Numerical Order in the Court.

If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

While you're there, you can also hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, or check out the conversation by searching for that hashtag.

You can also chat about this episode on the MaxFun subreddit.

That's at maximumfun.reddit.com.

Evidence and photos for this episode of our show are on our Instagram account.

That's at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

If you use Instagram, do follow us.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Here's something from Jason.

My closet's too full.

My wife insists I purge some of my clothing, but she has a larger closet, underbed storage, and a dresser.

She won't let me have any of her extra room, and I don't want to purge my late 2000s ska band shirts.

Jesse Thorne, I have a question for you before I rule on this guy.

Put this on shop, and in general, do old t-shirts sell vintage t-shirts, used t-shirts?

I would say that

used t-shirts are probably the most popular item

in vintage clothes right now.

Because I was going to go with your expertise because my guess would have been most people consider them to be too intimate and close to the skin to buy used.

I think that the popularity of concert t-shirts that emerged in like the late 90s, early 2000s, that I assumed was going to run out of steam at some point, has only grown in the time since.

And it has extended in recent years to

primarily shirts from from the 90s, I would say,

but often ones that in the 90s I would have considered profoundly distasteful.

I understand.

Well, speaking of profoundly distasteful, my recommendation to Jason is he sends you all of his 2000 ska band shirts to sell on, put this on.

I think that's the perfect solution to the situation.

The people who are about to send me letters aside, I don't know who necessarily has nostalgia for the ska of the late 2000s.

That's very deep into the popular decline of ska.

I don't have anything against ska music.

I think it's a fun kind of music.

But maybe the ska nostalgia is more focused on a decade or so earlier.

You're saying you would refuse to sell Jason's ska band shirts on consignment through put this on?

If Jason had some maybe some late 80s, early 90s Chardet t-shirts, that's where the money is.

All right.

Well then, I got to say, Jason, you got to hold on to your shirts.

I'm sorry.

I know that your wife isn't asking you to pare down your closet.

Your wife is asking you to get rid of your ska shirts.

And she's using the Mari Kondo excuse to get rid of stuff that she thinks is not good.

But if you love those shirts, find room for them.

If you can't fit them into your closet, get rid of something else.

If you can't sell them on consignment at putthisonshop.com, find a nook in your home.

Tear out some insulation between the walls and put your ska shirts in there for later use.

Let the next homeowner find them.

That's all.

Judge Hodgman.

Yes.

My daughter, Gracie, has a case for you.

I would love to hear it.

Is a stool a chair?

No, a stool is a poop.

Yes.

I like that Grace asked the question, but you answered it for Oscar.

Then for Gracie, I will say, no, I think a chair has a back.

A stool does not.

We're eager to hear about all your disputes on any subject.

No case too small.

So please remember to submit those cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ H O.

And remember, we're coming to New York City.

So if you're in New York City or in Virons,

make sure to submit a case to us and let us know that you're in New York.

We're always looking for live litigants for our live shows.

But, you know, maybe you'll end up on another show anyway.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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