Snap Judgment

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Snap Judgment.

E-Man brings the case against his wife, Cassie.

When Cassie turned 38, E-Man helped her with a photo shoot.

She asked him to edit the photo in Photoshop, but when he finished the task, she decided to post the unedited version on her social media.

E-Man says that Cassie took advantage of his free labor.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Something's definitely going on down there.

Active is pinging back something really big.

It's huge and it's coming right up underneath us.

Where?

It's everywhere.

There, starboard bow.

Look at that.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

E-Man and Cassie, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

Yes, I do.

Or whatever.

KG.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he does not appear in photographs like some kind of invisible man?

Yes, I do.

Absolutely.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Everyone sees my floating bandages and sunglasses.

I don't know why it's a problem.

Frankly, it's the best version of me.

Nothing to worry about.

Just a bandage sunglasses, man.

That's right.

And nothing else.

Just a floating head.

Floating bandaged head, sunglasses, and a floating bottle of malort.

But do you ever feel invisible?

Not often enough, Cassie.

I wish I could apply the incredible Zoom teleconferencing invention of hide self-view to my whole life.

I'm sick of it.

In fact, you know what?

I'm turning off hide self-view now so I can look at all of you.

There.

Oh, look, you're all a little bit bigger.

Now that I've made that adjustment.

Reading from top to bottom, I say hello to litigant E-Man.

I say hello to Litigant Cassie.

Bailiff, Jesse Thorne.

It's lovely to see you again.

And then there's producer Jennifer Marmor down there at the bottom.

How are you?

All good?

Good.

You may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can you name the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered this fake internet courtroom?

E-Man,

I'm reading from top to bottom.

You happen to be up top.

You go first.

What's your guess?

I'm going to say Godzilla is the only thing that I could think of.

That's what came to mind.

Godzilla.

You know what, E-Man?

I'm not saying we're right or wrong,

but you're not correct.

But that's actually in the zone.

I like it.

I like that guess.

I mean, I've been in kaiju mode for like a while now.

Right.

It's just on my mind a lot.

Right.

Yeah.

I could tell because when I logged in, you manifested it as a spinning turtle shell with flames coming out the holes.

Kaiju mode.

I'm glad you picked that up.

Yeah.

Well, it was hard to miss.

Cassie, what is your guess?

Oh, man, in the vein of Godzilla.

Well, let me put it to you this way.

You're not going to win.

No one will.

No one ever does.

So pressure's off, too.

I'll give you a hint.

It's not actually a kaiju, but it is a movie.

It is a movie.

You want to hear it again?

Because this is one of the most

famous lines in cinema.

Okay.

Something's definitely going on down there.

Active is pinging back something really big.

It's huge and it's coming up right underneath us.

Where?

It's everywhere.

There.

Starboard bow.

There.

Look, look.

Does sound very kaijuy, doesn't it, E-Man?

It does.

I'll give you one more hint.

You ready for this?

Sure, yes.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, do you have this one?

I think I have it, but I could be wrong.

Here's the hint: bananas.

Oh, that doesn't help at all.

Oh, it's Chris Elliott on David Letterman

as Marlon Brando.

Jesse, you are closest of all.

All right, Cassie.

I don't know.

King Kong.

All right, I said that it wasn't a kaiju.

I know.

I guess technically King Kong is not a kaiju, unless it's King Kong versus Godzilla.

Do mammals count as kaijus?

Well, King Kong is not

part of the

Japanese monster movie universe originally.

So I would say, okay, you're right that King Kong is not a kaiju.

Do not send me letters, anybody.

Elliot, Kalen.

But you are wrong, as used in the sentence, all guesses are wrong, including Jesse Thorns, though.

He was so close.

It is Chris Elliott in the movie The Abyss.

That's right.

James Cameron's The Abyss.

It was there.

The weird comedic genius of Chris Elliott, as he was hitting it large in the 1980s, he was cast in some movies.

As, you know, this is what I've aspired my whole acting career towards, being cast as non-comedic roles in serious movies where people just go like, why is he there?

Chris Elliott was in two of them.

He was in Michael Mann's Manhunter as an FBI agent, chasing a serial killer very seriously.

And then also in The Abyss, James Cameron's The Abyss, as Bendix.

the guy on the ship looking into a thing to see that something's coming up underneath the ship.

I want you to understand that I am committed to this podcast.

I'm committed to justice.

I remembered that he was in the abyss.

When was the last time I saw the abyss?

Then.

Is it good?

Probably.

Did I have to subscribe to stars especially to get that quote for you?

Yes, you both owe me $8.99.

One for this month, one for next month when I forget to cancel.

Jennifer Marmor.

Did we stretch this out long enough?

Because what's the case?

E-Man, Cassie, the case is that, Cassie, you did a a photo shoot.

You asked E-Man to edit it for you.

He did it.

You decided not to use it.

You posted the original.

E-Man's suing you for damages.

Because, E-Man, you're a professional photographer?

No, not in the least.

Are you a professional photo editor?

Uh, nope, not that either.

No, right.

So you don't make money doing this.

No.

Okay.

No, no.

Let's talk about something else then.

You win, Cassie.

Yes.

No, we'll talk about it.

I'm going to give E-Man a chance to change my mind.

But I forgot.

I forgot for a second, before we go on to this case that I think I've already decided,

I forgot to explain why I quoted Chris Elliott in the Abyss.

Quickly, E-Man, Cassie, any guesses?

I have no idea.

I was trying to mull it over.

Yeah, you were mulling it.

Yeah, I'm mulling hard.

Because it does have something to do with this case.

Does the name Tom...

Cassie, I take it you don't know this one?

I'm thinking hard, but

I'm going to need a little more.

Okay.

Does the name Thomas Knoll, K-N-O-L-L, mean anything to you?

Or John Knoll, K-N-O-L-L?

No.

They're the brothers who in 1987 co-created Photoshop.

Oh.

Thomas Knoll was a PhD candidate at the University of Michigan there in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and was frustrated that his Mac couldn't display grayscale images.

So he created some software

to adjust those images, and that was the birth of Photoshop.

And he showed his software and developed it through showing it to his brother Thomas Knoll, who worked at the time at Industrial Light and Magic and was working on a movie called The Abyss, and realized that he could use this software to stitch together photos, background photos, to create a 3D background static set.

for one of the early big CGI moves in cinema, which was in the abyss when that water tentacle comes up and turns into a face, the abyss.

First movie, they say, to use Photoshop in its development.

There you go.

History of cinema for you.

This isn't blank check.

This is Judge John Hodgman.

E-man, what's your beef?

I think they summed it up already, but I'm going to give you a chance to briefly tell us your point of view.

Well,

so no, I'm not a professional, but had I been at least credited for even taking the photo, maybe that would have been my big break because Cassie's got quite a few followers.

So tell me about the photo shoot before you start claiming IP theft.

Okay, sure.

So it was taken in our living room and a photo of whom?

Of Cassie.

She was the subject.

And

what was the purpose of the photo shoot?

What was it commemorating?

What was going on?

New headshots?

A new record album?

We were commemorating Cassie's 38th birthday

with a great idea that she had of

similar to how you would take a photo of any newborn on their birthday.

It was

on the floor with a blanket and a sign that said,

I'm 400 and Cassie might have, I need your help here because I don't remember the math.

Really well-prepared case because you sent in this evidence.

I'm looking at the photo.

I'm 456 months old.

That's it.

Yes, 456 months old.

Right.

Great idea.

I was on board.

So instead of a baby lying on a quilt or a blankie,

smiling, as babies can be tempted to do from time to time, with

beef jerky, I believe.

Babies love beef jerky.

Yeah.

Just put peanut butter in their mouths.

Right.

And a sign that says, I'm nine months old.

Hooray.

Or whatever it is.

This is grown-up Cassie lying on a quilt.

I'm 456 months old with her foot in her mouth to look like a baby.

And Iman, this was her creative.

Yes.

Had you created the brief or did she...

This is all hers.

All her brief, all her idea, entirely.

I was just lifting heavy stuff.

It's a hilarious photo.

And E-Man, I'm going to give this to you.

It's a well-taken photograph.

Thank you.

And, of course, it's available on our showpage at maximumfund.org, Judge John Hodgman showpage, as well as on our Instagram at JudgeJohn Hodgman.

Do we have that permission, Cassie?

Uh, sure.

Are you in doubt that you own the IP?

Who's the rights holder?

I would say that it's mine, and I'm giving you permission to post that.

It's a very funny idea.

Thank you.

It's a very funny execution.

And whose idea was it for you to put your toes in your mouth like a baby?

That was mine.

I was just trying some things out, and it just felt right.

You just got into that baby mindset?

I guess so.

Yeah.

What other baby things did you

try out?

Did you audition anything?

You know, I don't really remember.

Any spitting up?

Did you audition anything?

There was probably drooling, but not so much spitting up.

Yeah, I think we started to try that and realized that the picture, the whole feel of the picture changed completely.

Just

with the spitting up.

Choice of words, we.

We started to try that.

Well, I was definitely

not silent.

Yeah, I was.

I have to direct at least some part of it because I was behind the camera.

Right.

Right.

Mostly agreeing.

Right.

But

you were like going, yes, yes.

Work.

Yes.

Oh, look here now.

Yes.

Ferocious.

Gorgeous.

I love it.

Perfect.

Right.

Who was operating

the giant wind machine?

That was one of the our kids.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Great.

They were, and what, I don't know, I'm not in showbiz, so I don't know what those like big things are that they use to reflect the lights, but

yeah, I think they're big things.

I don't know.

That's Chris Elliott.

He's been in the movies.

Whose idea was it to pose on top of this quilt full of kittens?

Not live kittens.

The print on it is kittens.

That would be mine.

Yeah.

That's your kitten blankie?

Yes, yes.

Fantastic.

Who wrote on the little card next to your head, I'm 456 months old?

That would also be me, Judge.

Who did the math?

That is also me.

yeah usually i'm i'm the one doing math here no no i understand i'm just saying in this particular piece of intellectual property okay

and and cassie do you acknowledge that uh that e-man was there taking the photo uh he he was there but i

but was he really present you know um well let me ask you this question so i see two versions of the photo here

These are just two iterations, right?

Is one the edited version, one not the non-edited version?

I don't have the edited version.

Okay, so the thing that you're claiming was this irreplaceable piece of IP that you deserve credit and money for, you don't have.

I may have spitefully deleted it in a blind rage.

No, but what I actually am.

A spite delete is very common.

Well, if you check the post, I'm not even credited as the photographer.

So the bare minimum of

crediting for involvement at all,

which is the,

like, I argue that the picture could not have been taken without me.

I think that's probably true.

So, I think that's probably true.

I'm presuming that your camera doesn't have a self-timer, and you

Cassie couldn't have made a cassette recording of her voice saying, good, good, great, I love it.

Work.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, Cassie has acknowledged that E-Man was definitely in the room.

And E-Man definitely snapped the snap, right, Cassie?

Yes.

Was it a special kind of camera, or was it just a phone camera, or what?

No, it was, it was a,

I'm not going to, I'm cognizant.

I'm saying it.

Well, I listened to this show, and I know, I know better than the

character.

Oh, okay, we're past that.

Do you know what we've been through over the course of this show?

Yeah, that's a good point.

Well, it's like a Nikon P1000, like DSLR, heavy-duty real camera, like a

Nikon P1000.

Are you confident that's not something you just made up?

I did.

I'm never confident that things come out of my mouth aren't just like things I just conjured up from some loose memory, but I'm certain that that's what it is.

That's a real photo.

That's a real photo.

That's real.

I have to tell you, Cassie.

I just looked it up.

Okay.

That is a real camera.

That is a real pro camera.

I'm looking at the price, even on sale today, a federal holiday on which we're recording.

That's a top-dollar cam.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

That's something you use?

You're more more than a hobbyist

or a

you know what I mean.

Yeah, you're not a professional, but you're you're more than a

point-and-clicker.

I did I did go to school for photography and then realized that I

my calling was in other things.

What is your calling?

Well, I'm currently in school for computer science.

So computer science.

Yes, so uh the

video games are my jam.

And so I'm hoping that like can I postmark on myself and say that I'm looking for work at the moment?

I have one.

I don't think your dog wants you to.

Yeah,

she's

walking home at all times.

No, I think she's like, this is going, you're going too far, you man.

You can't buzz market yourself.

I was 100% certain, Judge Hodgman, that when you asked him what his calling was, he said, oh, I'm a nun.

That's the.

I took the thing off.

No, he's into video games, so his calling is of duty.

Yes.

Goodbye forever.

i retire that's it end of the show end of the program

have that dog bark at me chase me off the set goodbye

what's your dog's name um we just call her schnau she's a schnauzer you didn't bother to name her well her given name is sabrina but uh i'm not a huge fan of it's too a little bit too human i like schnau it's sabrina after cerberus the the guardian of hell um because she's constantly guarding his desk area um so that's where sabrina came from

More Cerberina.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This sounds like a real case, actually.

Should we dispute this one instead?

Oh, we could do that too.

Why did you get to name the dog, Cassie?

Oh, I well, we kind of

came to the conclusion as a family because everyone's been bit by the dog.

So it seemed like the

most

effective name for the dog.

Who are the other stakeholders in this decision?

Three children.

Right.

So

we.

Yeah.

So, E-Man, what would you have named the dog since you were obviously outvoted by your children and Cassie?

She kind of looks like a hyena.

So

the hyena in

Lion King's name is Shenzi.

And I was pretty partial to that name.

I like that name, Shenzhen.

Do you feel that you are often being erased by your family?

That your history of contribution to this family is erased.

You don't get credit.

Your dog name suggestions get overruled and even the dog is mad at you all the time?

Even the dog tries to speak over you, not just me.

Yeah, I accept that my autonomy is relinquished, which is why I'm so obsessed with virtual worlds where I have total control.

Trying to disappear into your games.

Everybody in my games does exactly what I programmed them to do, unlike real life.

Cassie, you're about to lose your husband into the game grid, Tron style.

That's fine.

Go into game world.

I've accepted it.

Wow.

Cassie, what is your calling?

I

used to be a writer, and

in the

before times,

ran a karaoke company in Brooklyn.

And then we moved upstate.

And

now I'm kind of figuring stuff out and selling vintage things and just stupid things that I make.

Going to graduate school for nunnery.

That too.

Yes.

It's a tough, tough road to hoe.

I realize that calling is a big word.

I didn't mean to intimidate either of you.

I mean, by calling, I just mean like, what do you do between dawn and dusk that makes you feel slightly alive and kills all these final hours that we have here together?

I mean,

sell old junk.

Yeah, well, I sell junk, but I also make stuff.

So I make puppets that look like people.

I could paint or

fabricate kind of anything.

So

I think the big thing last week was we had let our yard grow

for no mow May, which is where you have your grass grow for pollinators and just don't mow it for a month.

It was getting to be kind of extreme.

So I was going to take care of it, but then I realized I could do a crop circle.

So I took some time to

carve,

I want to believe in the grass in the side yard.

And

so mostly just things for my own amusement is what my calling is.

And how much of that project do you want, E-Man?

How much credit do you want for that crop circle project?

Well,

maybe not 100%,

but when we first got here, I was the grass mower and I was criticized for initially not mowing the lawn.

in, I guess, whatever the traditional way of mowing the lawn is, which is like line by line.

I was kind of doing circle stuff.

So I'm not saying I have

your idea.

I would say

I'm an inspiration more than I get credit for.

What you were originally criticized for,

your unorthodox circle weavy style of grass mowing, is now being used as inspiration for Cassie's art project.

Yeah, yes.

I'm going to go with, yeah, that is

a bold statement.

Yeah.

Seems like a statement of fact to me.

Statement of fact to me.

Wow, the tides have really turned here.

This is some...

Well,

I'm getting some very interesting background.

Trying to see where this comes from.

Trying to find that crux.

But

every other part of it, as far as

the signature, the writing of it, and the execution, I had nothing to do with that.

I kind of just...

Saw it afterwards, laughed.

And I will add that Cassie said she makes dumb stuff.

I would disagree.

I think the stuff she makes R has universal appeal, and it'd be foolish not to like totally enjoy.

Yeah, I don't know why you're running it down, Cassie.

Seems like you are both living a dreamy life.

Seems that way.

Wow.

No, no, I'm kidding.

I do kind of have to, yeah, I have to be kind of grateful sometimes.

Things are pretty cool.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The brace short ribs, made in, made in.

The Rohan Duck Riders of Rohan, made in, made in.

That heritage pork chop that you love so much, you got it.

It was made in, made in.

But made in isn't just for professional chefs.

It's for home cooks, too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made-in cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable

than some of the other high-end brands.

We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

I have a little

carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

And I know that she can, you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

She can use it to braise if she wants to use it to braise.

It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

And it will last a long time.

And whether it's

griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware, I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookware.com.

That's m-a-d-e-i-n cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

All right, let's get back to this photo then and see if we can solve this issue, and then we'll resolve all the other issues in your life

and what time we have remaining.

So, these two photos that I'm looking at, they're two different poses from the same photo shoot, but if I understand correctly, E-Man, neither of them is the edited one, these are both unedited.

Correct.

What?

Go ahead.

Well, I was gonna, I was going to supply you with the link to the actual posts, which I think

I know

that you want me to like the post.

I don't like the post.

No.

I understand this whole thing is this incredibly elaborate trick to get me to go look at your social media feed and like this post.

I worked so hard to try and layer my real intentions.

No, it's really not that.

I just want to, I want to be on the same page as well.

It's not even my social media.

I'm not a big, you know.

Don't worry.

Everyone will go look at this picture.

Don't worry.

So neither of these are edited.

E-man, what were you asked to do vis-a-vis editing this photo?

Because these look pretty good to me as is.

What were you asked to do?

Well, some simple cropping to get rid of the parts of the photo that are like not cute cats and the sign.

I was asked to make the sign kind of like stand out a little bit more.

And then there's a slight green tinge over Cassie's left shoulder that's coming from a lamp that we have in the living room.

I was asked to like color correct that so that it doesn't look like there's this like green light coming in on her eyes for reflecting the glasses.

how long would you say this took you to do five, nine days?

What?

Probably two hours.

Two hours.

Two hours of cropping and color correcting and a little sizzle on the on the sign that says I'm 456 months old.

That's right.

And Cassie, when you received the edited one, you decided to go ahead and use the original why?

It wasn't good.

It was like out of focus and then the color correction was

off.

So it was like partially green, green, but in like an alien kind of way.

So I was hoping that someone.

Someone could have won this.

You know, you probably could have won this case without being hurtful.

I'd rather just get in there.

You could have simply said, he did a great job, but when I got back, when I looked at them both, I don't know, something just spoke to me about the unedited one of them.

It's like, it wasn't good.

It wasn't good.

It made me look like an alien.

Bad cropping.

My husband's a bad cropper.

That was harsh.

That's nothing good about it.

Oh, wow.

So,

part of the thing here, and part of what my defense would be, is that E-Man has

a long history of taking really unflattering photos when I am specifically asking, please take a nice picture.

Because,

like, a thing happens when you're like an adult with kids, where like all the photos end up being taken by a child.

They're from the position of someone that's three feet tall.

So it's all like double chin, super unflattering.

So like I occasionally want a nice photo to remind myself that I'm a human being and not just like a provider of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

And

so

my exhibits A and B would be some photos that were sent to you.

The first one being

pictures from when we first started dating.

So we'd been dating maybe like three months and it was New Year's Eve and we were going out on the town.

I had a 1978 AMC gremlin that I was really super duper proud of.

I just opened these photos, and boy, did you!

That is one beautiful gremlin!

Wow, it was in perfect condition, it came out of a garage.

It was I don't love that you're talking about it in the past tense.

I don't want to know what happened to this gremlin.

Did Sabrina eat this car or something?

Well, it was when we inherited children.

So,

like,

when we got the kids, we had had the car for

about like a year and a half, and then it just became kind of unpractical because the safety measures in 1978 are not the same as

they are in modern day.

I don't think they had seat belts then.

I think they had seat strings.

Yeah, a lot of exhaust too.

And

like that's what they have the red rope for in the Mirthmobile in Wayne's World.

Yes.

Well, the license plate was Mr.

Big with three G's.

Look at that.

So like I was super psyched about this car and I just wanted like a like a hot lady on a Corvette type.

photo taken of myself.

And instead, the only photos from that night are these weird sideways ones that E-Man took.

And that is the memory of that New Year's Eve.

So like slightly unflattering from the perspective of

maybe like a toddler.

And

well,

there's a low one, definitely, where it's like, E-Man, you must have been sort of like kneeling on the curb.

Yeah,

I had to work for that one.

Right.

Just throw out of there.

You know, but I'm going to say something about this.

Where was this taken?

In Bedstead, where we used to live.

Bedstead, yeah.

Where you had your grandma and you parked it on the street.

Yeah.

This is during your karaoke days.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

What a a life.

Now, I'm looking at these photos.

And I'm going to tell you something.

These are hot photos.

These are good.

Sorry, Cassie.

These are good photos.

In particular, the one that is from the point of view of a toddler.

I'm looking at the one, the one that is lowest to the ground.

The camera is lowest to the ground.

And you're on the hood of that gremlin with that Mr.

Big, B-I-G-G, Mr.

Big.

I didn't even.

It just hit me.

I had said it earlier.

It's Mr.

Big, but it's BI666.

This is an incredible album cover.

And also, I took the photos knowing that if necessary, I could edit them later.

So if there was...

Those are totally...

No,

that's how I always take any photo.

I'm always.

You knew that later you could add, for example, focus, which you were missing from a number of these.

Well, you got to take quite a few.

I mean, you said that there are two, but there's one in particular I think it's good.

It's good.

I'm looking at photo 20161231 underscore 2204224019.jpg,

which, by the way, is now the name of your band

for this album.

It's just all keyboards, 100%.

See you at Solid Sound in two years.

I know that

you don't love these photos.

I understand, but I'm telling you, it's pretty good.

This is not evidence is working in your favor.

Cassie looks like in photo 206161231 underscore 224019.jpg,

Cassie does have a look on her face like, oh, we're taking this picture.

It's not really a come hither stare.

It's more of like go thither.

Like Cassie said, this was when we first started dating.

And I mean, a lot of, yeah, there's a real

look of distrust.

Yeah.

But a real look of like, I don't know about, I don't know about this guy.

I don't know about this photo.

And obviously the suspicion lingers.

Still don't know, do you, Cassie?

No, not really, not sold on it.

Look,

I never promised to be a photographer, the best photographer that you would have till death do his part.

That wasn't anywhere in our vows.

What are you trying to prove, Cassie, that he takes crummy photos?

Because look, obviously these are just snaps.

And you know what?

Maybe it's out of focus because his hands are shaking because he's very excited to be on this date with this beautiful person with this cool car.

What a wingman.

Well,

let's take a look at Exhibit B.

So

Exhibit B is

a photo at the lake that we live at, and it was taken two years ago.

This is the lake where you live at now.

Yes, yeah.

Upstate New York, Lake Karaoke.

Yes, Lake Seneca.

So

I asked Y-Man to take some pictures, and the one that's there is the best one he managed to take, where

I don't know if it's in front of you, you, but you'll notice it looks like I don't have a lower half of my body.

This is you, the one of you lying on the on the yellow towel.

Yes.

And it's clearly some kind of vintage towel because it's got some kind of embroidery on it.

Is it something that was stolen from a 1965 motel on Route 66 or something?

Could be.

I'm feeling your vibe.

I've got a sense of your vibe, Cassie, and

I want you to know I like it.

Thank you, John.

You know what else?

I like this photo too.

I get it.

I get it.

We don't like the photos that we're in all the time but i i don't know what you're proving here that he can't take a photograph well when she when she pointed out the lower half now yeah now that you pointed out that it looks like you can't unsee it now looks like your legs end at your knees yeah okay i see it now it's like an optical illusion almost now it's the only thing i can see you're right yeah well the the shadows also uh from the trees look like there's a lot of bruising happening so not only am i missing you know am i missing my legs from the knee down but uh there's also a tremendous amount of trauma that's happened to cause that.

So

it's like a hot post-shark bite picture.

Well, now I like it again.

As a native Californian, I look at this picture, and all I can see is that apparently in the Northeast, when people lay out and relax on towels, it's on piles of rocks and plants.

Oh,

that can, that can be, I can attest to that.

That is absolutely true.

Yeah.

And I will also say now that I'm looking at this a little bit more closely,

there are people in the background.

It is not framed particularly well.

If you look to the left of Cassie's head, there's someone with a mountain bike kind of standing there looking at their phone.

Oh, yeah, probably.

It's not the natural splendor that you were looking for.

There's a lot of teens and hoodlums that hang at

this weird underpass beach area in our town.

Then there's a photo of you wearing a cool blue speed suit on a dirt road holding some husked corn and something else.

What's that one?

That's my evidence for a good photo.

And when asked to like,

this is a common thing, you know, like sometimes taking pictures of each other, you know, we will do that from time to time.

And I, sure, I don't always nail it, but.

I submitted that one as evidence that I can take a good photo.

And that one was, by the way, also used, also not credited for.

Do you agree that that's a good photo, Cassie?

I do, but I would also like to say that, like, when you're married, what is credit really?

You're united as one, one entity.

Look, it's not the way I live my life, but there,

you know, lots of, lots of married couples do keep separate finances and separate property legally.

I don't see it that way.

Is that how you organize your life?

It's starting to sound like

it wasn't before, but.

You are legally married in the state of New York?

Yes.

I mean, I understand when you're a cool young couple living on the shores of Lake Karaoke, New York,

making your human-shaped puppets and coming up with cool names for your dog and lying on retro towels by the lake, that you don't need a piece of paper to prove your love for each other.

I know you're beyond all that.

But do you have a legal piece of paper that says that you are married?

We do, yeah.

All right.

It's in this file.

file.

Do you share a bank account?

No.

No.

Oh.

But there's not, there's not

keep separate bank accounts, but it's not legally separated.

Yeah, like we do share finances.

It's a requirement for surviving.

Okay.

Cassie, why is it important for you to not merely deny E-Man credit on your social media when you post photos that he took, but also then to go on a podcast and say he's very bad at what he does in the photo-taking department.

Hmm.

Well,

when you put it that way, it sounds really bad, John.

Well, you're sharing all these photos that are not particularly, I mean, you're trying to prove that he's a bad photographer.

I mean, all E-Man is saying is, I want some credit for the time I spent editing this photo.

And you're saying he doesn't deserve credit because even though I asked him to take these photos over the years from the beginning of our marriage until now, he takes bad ones.

Bad phototaker, bad cropper.

So with the original photo, my one ask,

it was for my birthday, was for him to take a nice picture of me.

And that's all I wanted for my birthday.

Didn't want a present, didn't want anything.

It was just that.

And then instead, it turned into this ordeal where he's standing on like a ladder and turning on all the lights in the living room.

And, you know, kids are holding lights.

And

then still came out weird.

And then the Photoshop was worse.

So I had been hoping for,

I don't know,

I felt that maybe like being that it was my birthday, that that would like

exclude me having to

post credit to.

But this torturous photo shoot that you're describing, this is the I am 400 and however many months old photo shoot.

456 months old.

Did he tell you to put your toes in your mouth?

No, that was me.

No, that was you.

this i thought that this was fun i thought you had fun making this photo but now it's a it's something that e-man made you do did i misunderstand something no uh you do have a point you have a point i thought this is a concept photo this is not just a nice photo this is a concept photo did you pitch the concept or no i did okay

eman

when the photo was posted to cassie's social media by cassie or Cassie's social media manager, I don't know who that might be.

Probably Sabrina the dog.

You received zero credit.

Not merely did you not get credit for the Photoshop.

The Photoshop wasn't used.

Right.

That probably made you feel away.

And then

you were not mentioned at all as the photographer, correct?

Correct.

Okay.

How did all those things make you feel?

Well,

the Photoshop not being used was the first sting.

It was the first blow.

And then not being credited was what inspired me to contact the court.

Now, and this is on me, you contacted the court two years ago.

Yes.

Well, this is not on you.

No, it is.

It actually is on me because I thought that there was no reply.

And I'm in.

That's on me.

That's on me.

Okay.

It just slipped through the cracks.

It did.

I apologize to both of you.

And especially to Sabrina the dog.

Don't bark at me.

But here it is two years later.

It still is in your craw.

Tell me why.

Well,

as I think the recurring theme here is

there's lack of credit for

even an insignificant thing.

Just a little bit of

acknowledgement of the effort that I put in

first

before the criticism.

I think actually,

in summary, judgment in my favor, I would ask that Cassie have to say two nice things before she criticizes anything.

Whoa.

Okay.

Wow.

Well, let me just review what your petition was here.

Your original ideal ruling was to get credit and some kind of acknowledgement for the work that you did.

Yeah.

I think that we've gotten you acknowledgement that you did the work in this podcast.

That has happened.

Yeah.

But with the caveat that the work was bad.

Cassie seems very, very intent on making sure that you do get credit for the work and also blame.

Yeah, which

I'm fine with.

I can take it.

But now you're revising your petition to a much bigger ask.

This is like a community service type punishment.

Which is, excuse me, order in my court.

Which is to say, I

want to hear two nice things before I hear criticism.

Is that correct?

Yes.

This is obviously a bigger issue then.

Do you feel that you are not praised and merely criticized?

It can happen.

You're reading the room.

You're reading the room pretty succinctly, I'd say.

Yeah.

All right.

When you say praise to critique, you're asking for two to one.

Two to one.

Praise to critique.

Yeah.

Right?

Let me ask you a question.

Are you ever praised?

Sure, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So

what is the current ratio of praise to critique?

You want two to one.

Yeah.

Whatever it is, you do.

You take a picture.

You make a sandwich.

You walk the dog.

I don't know.

What kind of things do you get criticized for?

Well, you mentioned walking the dog.

Not walking the dog is something that I often get criticized for, but that's fair.

It's going to be hard to come up with praise for not walking the dog.

Yeah, that's fair.

Well, geez, this is a little tough on the spot to think of.

All right.

You know what?

I'm going to give you a few moments to prepare your case.

I understand that you're changing your request in mid-court.

But I would say.

It's very out of order.

I don't want you to jump in.

I want you to take some time to think about it.

Okay.

When you say you want two praise to criticism, I need to hear what are some of the things you get critiqued for, some of the stings that you would like to sting less now while you're thinking about it, while you're thinking about it.

Let me give you a little critique.

You talk too quick.

Think.

Think, then talk.

Oh,

that was too mean.

I apologize.

No, that was right.

That was true.

Oh, all right.

Leave it in.

Leave it in.

Cassie, when your husband E-Man says, I would like to be praised a little bit more than I am criticized, how does that make you feel?

Well, I mean, he has a point, but I think he's conflating

criticism with just an

overall

negativity that maybe

I might have

and that I'm being more cognizant of.

Like yesterday, he came in to go to bed, and I had been looking through my phone, and the first thing I said to him was not like, I love you, Han.

It was,

did you know that 31 people died in a stampede in Nigeria today?

And

then I like caught myself and realized what an awful thing to say to someone who's about to go to bed.

So

well, but on the other hand, I mean, both things are true and both things deserve your attention.

Well, I think the reason is that it had become this cumulative thing where, so we have three dogs and one of them is 17 and incontinent.

I thought you just had one dog with three heads.

It feels that way.

That's the misconception.

It does.

But yeah, so one of them is 17 and she's incontinent.

And so she'll just, she's too old to kind of walk.

And so a lot of cleaning has to happen around the house.

And so

there was a while where the mop itself was like starting to just add stink to the floor.

And I'm home most of the time Cassie leaves like completely purifies her nostrils and then comes home and then is just hit with that with the funk and it's it's something that like I'm usually home doing stuff and so until she points it out I'm like I didn't even notice but it was like this thing where the first thing I'd hear from her when she gets home is it really smells in here so it was before hello before how was how my day was or whatever and so I think it's it's this cumulative effect of like this is what you worked on when when i was talking to cassie this is what you came up with no this is kind of on the spot

i was like what do i i got to think of something that i'm unfairly criticized for oh being disgusting that's it yeah failing to clean up the dog urine i should say there's a distance between where i usually am and cassie made the case for you so much better Cassie's out here going like, I may exude some negativity unconsciously that may be a burden to my husband.

I maybe should have to keep an eye on it.

And you're like, sometimes she says

it stinks in here when I failed to clean up the dog urine.

It's not that I failed to clean up the dog urine.

It's the.

What was the problem again?

I failed.

Well, okay.

I'll admit that sometimes I fail to notice there's dog urine.

You're both in the house, right?

You're both living up there.

Yeah, yeah.

But Cassie's the one that actually

gets to leave the house.

I'm the stay-at-home parent.

May I ask you a question about the photos, Cassie?

Sure.

I am someone who hates every photo of me.

I cannot stand to look at a photograph of me

because my vision of myself is very different from, like, I don't like seeing how the world sees me.

I have a different idea of what I look like.

And there's nothing wrong with that dude in the photos.

People seem to like him fine, but I hate him.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I just hate that guy.

I hate him.

Don't like to see him feel gross when he shows up.

It's the worst.

That's why I covered my head with bandages and wear sunglasses all the time.

It's not just because I'm invisible.

Because unfortunately, I am visible.

Would you say that you have a relationship with photos of yourself that is similar to that or dissimilar to that?

Well, I

think of if I'm going to do a photo shoot thing where I'm doing something stupid and involving E-Man, it's more of like an art project than

anything.

So I'm kind of

like looking for a certain thing.

And if I'm asking anyone to help me, it's like because I can't do it myself.

So I

do like

taking

pictures that are like

fun or stupid to document whatever fun or stupid thing that I'm

happening to be.

Probably doing your projects.

Yeah.

Projects.

Yes.

All right.

What's the social media account?

I need to take a look at this real quick.

I dropped a link in the chat.

Okay, Cassie,

I'm looking at your social media now, your Instagram.

Incredible.

The most beautiful woman in puppet land is your bio.

This is truly Hipsburg, upstate New York.

I love it.

Who is taking the photos in here?

You're taking photos of really weird paperbacks that you found?

That's me.

That's awesome.

These are some of the things that you find and resell?

Yeah, I make notebooks out of like vintage romance novels and kids' books that I think are funny.

Yeah, so you're doing your art projects and so forth.

Good for you.

This is

what I collect.

Right.

We're on two totally opposite ends of existence.

One in which I'm like this really, I'm very interested in like emergent technology and how these things work.

And Cassie is very much like

on preserving the things of the past that

have found their way to places that she thinks they should find.

Chunken stuff.

Yeah, I wanted to add that the car,

because of Cassie's gift, really, I would say, is like making sure things get to where they should be.

And the car ended up in the hands of,

correct me if I'm wrong here, Cassie, but Milton Hershey's car collecting nephew,

who purchased it from us.

Milton Hershey of the Hershey chocolate family?

yes.

So, uh, went to Lil Hershey, the nef?

Um,

so when I was selling it, I put it on Craigslist, and he was in Ohio and happened to be like, you know, looking at larger areas to find this car.

So he had had a crush on a co-worker in the 70s, and she drove a yellow gremlin.

And

so we happened to be going to Hershey Park in Hershey, Pennsylvania.

So we, Glenn Hershey, drove halfway and met us in Hershey to do the car exchange.

And he was just an incredible weirdo.

And so it went to the right person.

Yeah.

The incredible weirdo.

That's so great.

And that's such a nice thing for you to say, E-Man, about your wife who clearly loves you, but spent the past hour kind of.

pooping on you

or at least incontinent dog urinating on you perhaps i think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my verdict.

I'll be back in a moment and render my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

E-Man, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

I'm feeling pretty good about it.

Judge Hodgman has a history of being a reasonable and fair judge.

So I think...

I think, yeah, I think it's going to go well.

Cassie, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

I, well, I was riding high and feeling pretty confident, but now I'm not so sure.

So

really, I just have to put my faith in the justice system here and hope that things shake out in my favor.

And we could all just put this matter behind us.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

It's the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

We're taking a quick break.

We're reminding everyone in the Northeast, and I've expanded this.

Previously, I had said the tri-state area.

Then I expanded that, I think, to the quad-state area.

I don't know what these states are.

I'm going to be frank with you.

Sure.

I want everybody to know that we are going to be performing at Lincoln Center in New York City in a beautiful outdoor amphitheater.

The show is free.

And if you live within hailing distance of New York City, I expect you to be there and I expect you to bring somebody because it is going to be a blast.

We're going to bring Gene Gray.

I'm going to bring my ukulele and sing one light song and one heavier song.

I'm going to sing an acapella song of my own choosing.

We love it.

And, you know, look, if you're within hailing distance of New York City,

you ought to get there.

There's lots of public transportation.

They all go to the crossroads of the world, Lincoln Center, Damros Park, Amphitheater, outdoors, outstanding.

June 29th, absolutely free, absolutely outdoors.

There's no reason you can't be there.

But listen, if you're within hailing distance, please don't hail on us.

Do you know what I mean?

No hail, no rain, no lightning, no

sleet.

And if we do have that kind of weather, we'll follow guidance.

But do you know what's going to happen?

It's going to be a beautiful night.

I'm calling it Jesse Thorne.

It's going to be a beautiful, clear June night.

It's going to be a beautiful night.

Prince taught us that.

That's right.

June 29th, Lincoln Center.

Just go to bit.ly slash J J H O Lincoln.

That's all one word, all capital letters.

J J Ho L I N C O L N, or use your preferred search engine and put in terms such as Judge John Hodgman Lincoln Center.

Be there or be as square as those quad states.

What else have you got going on, John?

Dicktown's on Hulu.

Watch Dicktown.

It's so great.

It's so funny.

David Reese is so funny.

Hodgman's so funny.

Thank you.

Lots of great guest stars on the show.

You know who's so funny on that show?

Jamie Lee Curtis.

Jamie Lee Curtis.

Jamie Sederis, Gene Gray, Mike Mitchell of those Doughboys.

Watch Tick Town.

Don't be a chump.

And guess what, John?

It's dad's and grad season.

Yeah.

So if you've got a dad or a grad, go to putthisonshop.com and get something special for them.

It's a perfect time to go to putthisonshop.com because look, it's, as you say, dad's and grad season.

It's dad's day coming up.

It's grad's day coming up.

And if you don't got a grad or a dad in your life, there's probably someone you'd like to get a little Prezi for.

PutThisonshop.com is a place I go when I have someone I need to get a little Prezi for and I don't have any ideas.

And all of a sudden, I've got 10 ideas, 10 great ideas.

Use the code VintageJustice for free shipping on almost everything in the store.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

I'm going deep into your feed here, Cassie.

I'm a follower now, and I am really feeling this.

As a child, you're both younger than me, but as a child of the 90s, where all you needed to do to be funny was to make some reference to some Caucasian junk culture and then just walk away.

You are speaking my language here.

In particular,

I'm really into this book you found by Betsy Haynes called The Great Dad Disaster.

That is great.

Oh, yes.

What happens when you mix dads with dating?

Two best friends are about to find out the great dad disaster.

And there are four dads in the cover of this book.

Two best friends, four dads.

I like the way this is going.

I want to read that book.

What a mix-up.

You did come in hot to this courtroom.

I heard you through the thin walls of my chamber.

I heard you saying, I thought I was going to win.

And you definitely came in with a winning attitude, both in the sense of you're nice and fun to be around.

but also in the sense that you thought you were going to crush and destroy your husband.

And you tried to get the party started.

You tried to get the stomp on E-Man party started hard.

Talking about how you can't even crop right.

Mean.

I came into this courtroom saying, E-Man, you do not have a case.

You do not have a case.

You do not deserve to be paid.

You're not a professional photo editor.

I don't care where you went to grad school.

You're not charging money for this.

There was no contract that was, you know, this is,

she chose the one that she liked a little bit better.

But then Cassie comes in and says, I chose the one that I liked a little bit better because what he did was bad.

It was mean.

It was mean, Cassie.

But does that speak to the merits of this case?

No, sorry.

You get nothing, E-Man.

I apologize.

Yes!

Well, I mean, you wanted me to rule that you can never talk about this again, correct, Cassie?

That was what you wanted me to rule.

Yeah, that would be great.

Right.

E-Man.

You don't deserve damages because your work was not used.

That was not part of the contract.

This was a work made for hire, as we say.

And you're not getting credit, while very, very mean,

is also justified.

Same thing, work made for hire.

You were asked to contribute to an art project originated by Cassie.

Now, if I were someone who is doing work for hire, if I were a Jack Kirby, and I was co-creating the Fantastic Four and not getting credit from Stan Lee, you bet I would leave.

You bet I would leave that company and go make Darkseide for DC and get some more money until they took all your credit to them.

And then you go back and work for Marvel again.

It's a sad story.

Are you suggesting here, John?

I'm saying you're Stan Lee and

an E-Man is Jack Kirby.

I'm saying that if you are hired to do a job, as is the case in this case, you were asked to shoot this photo shoot for an art project that Cassie had created and was going to put on her socials,

and you don't like the way you're treated by the person who hired you, don't work for them again.

Don't work for them again.

I mean, I'm sorry, there's no back pay for a work made for hire.

It's rough.

You're burned.

Don't put your hand on that stove again.

Cassie has an art project.

You know, you have your video games that you're making, which are just as valid and just as important.

And I see no reason why you should be tricked into taking a photograph that you agree to do out of love and then are repaid only with disdain and cruelty

ever again.

The tide has really turned in this case.

Well, you won the case, Cassie.

You won the case.

But I do the cost.

Zero, nothing.

Nothing.

You win.

You win.

I'm just saying that when it comes to these art projects, this is your world.

Isn't that right, E-Man?

I can't argue with that.

This social media account on a popular social media website,

photography website, this is definitely an expression of Cassie.

Well, I'm going to say this is definitely an expression of at Cassie J.

Snyder.

Right?

Because this social media account is Cassie's thing.

See, Cassie, you tried to spin it away that was a little confusing to me.

You said, all I wanted was a nice photograph of myself.

My husband is too terrible to even do that.

And I'm like, oh.

This is a deep thing.

This is hard, you know, because this person doesn't feel that that they're represented in photo i feel sympathy there it's like i'm i'm still looking for a good photograph of myself and i'm and i thought it was a case of you know finding a loved one who you know loves and adores you and trusting that person to take a photo that you're going to love and being sensitive to all of that

but then

you erased all that by saying like no no it was just my art project i wanted him to take a photo of it and he did a bad job

i was like do you feel that you are misrepresented in photos like not when i take a picture of myself Why can't my husband do better?

Like, I get it.

It's fine.

You deserve to have great photos of yourself.

You deserve to have great photos of yourself that you enjoy, that you love.

You deserve to have great photos of yourself that you can use for your art projects.

And clearly, despite his graduate degree,

E-Man can't do it the way you would like it to be done.

You shouldn't hire him again.

He shouldn't work for you and you shouldn't hire him.

You're not employers of each other.

You're You're life partners.

You're life partners.

You need to find someone who's going to take photos of you that you can...

And this is not just to lecture.

I just mean to say you deserve, if you need photos of yourself for your feeds and stuff,

you need someone that you can work with and bounce ideas off of and have fun with and like the outcome.

If you don't like the outcome of what he's doing, then that's fine.

That's fine.

He's not your employee.

He's your life partner.

Give him some extra time to clean up that dog urine.

You know what I mean?

Because the truth is that you've seen from early in dating and right up until your birthday, from the gremlin photos to the fake baby photo, you're not satisfied with the work he's putting in.

That's okay.

Have someone else take the photos.

I like those photos.

I think they're cool.

I think you did a good job, E-Man.

Although, you do need a little work for focus.

I'm glad that you're focusing on video games now.

Jesse's right.

I was a little out of focus.

A little nervous.

But maybe it's nervous because it's a subject, a matter that, you know, the subject matter is someone that you love and maybe scares you a little.

This incredible person.

I've definitely had my constitution has been much higher since the start of this relationship.

It's been strengthened.

Cassie's wonderful.

But, you know,

maybe you're a little intimidated.

If I don't get this gremlin picture right, I'm never going to see this person again.

At the time of the baby photo, also, we weren't married yet.

We got married

like shortly after.

So you're relatively, you're relative newlyweds.

We're coming up on a year

in two months.

Oh, so this is still new.

You're still into it.

You're still figuring out where the boundaries are in this marriage, when to engage with each other, when to leave each other alone, what stuff is yours, what stuff.

I mean, because the truth is, you know, yeah, the only thing you share in marriage is finances, pretty much, legally.

Even if you keep separate finances legally, probably if you were to break up someday a judge would say, nope, they're all shared.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

That's really the only thing you share.

I mean, other than one hopes, happy time together.

And one also hopes the largest bed that you can afford.

Because the truth is, you know, you don't shed your individual identity or your autonomy when you are married.

You don't become the other person's employee.

right

um and you don't hold back the other person from the the thing that they want to do.

And there are certain things that you just can't do together that you might enjoy.

And one of them is working together on art projects of this kind, on a Cassie art project.

It's best to avoid that in the future.

Cassie, I thought it was very thoughtful and sensitive of you when I said, well, how does it make you feel when E-Man says that he feels more critiqued than praised?

for you to say, well, you know, I'm kind of worried that I might be shedding off more negativity than positivity sometime.

Just sort of, and that happens, you know, there's a lot of negativity that we are taking in all the time, and we need to get it out of our systems.

We need to rant and complain and, and say things to our partners and so forth.

But it's very, it's very thoughtful of you to be mindful of how much of that burden you put on the person that you love who's just trying to go to bed and isn't asking for it.

You know what I mean?

You know, that's also a very valuable thing.

I think you both are doing everything right, but I do think it is time to let this one go.

I think it is time to let this one go, E-Man.

I'm sorry that you felt cheated.

I appreciate why you felt cheated.

People who have done work for hire art in the past have always been cheated.

That's part of doing work for hire.

In future, don't agree to take a photo unless you are guaranteed credit and a share of proceeds.

Just because you're married doesn't mean that you deserve to be exploited creatively.

And Cassie, find a, you know, if you want a really good photo of yourself, hire somebody.

Hire someone who finished their degree in photography.

You know what I mean?

I'm sure that there are tons of other artistic types up there in Hittsburg, New York, who you could be collabing with.

And then, you know,

you'd either get work that you like a little bit better,

or you'd be less inclined to poop on their work on a podcast because you need to maintain a professional relationship with that person.

In any case,

I find in Cassie's favor, no damages to E-Man, but E-Man, you and I shall always know you took this photo.

And you can see it on the Judge John Hodgman page at Instagram, and we'll link to your Instagram.

It's pretty cool.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Cassie, how do you feel?

I feel all right.

There's a lot to reflect on.

So

hopefully this can be the start of just a new beginning.

And we could leave all this

photography business in the past.

Amen.

How do you feel?

A little bit blindsided.

I was definitely thinking that things were going to end up differently towards the end there.

But despite all that,

I still think

there's some takeaways in the verdict.

And

I think good things can come of this experience, for sure.

E-Man Cassie, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In a moment, we'll have Swift Justice.

First, our thanks to Twitter user at ROBD77.

R-O-B-T77 for naming this week's episode Snap Judgment.

You too can name a future episode of Judge John Hodgman.

Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

While you're there, hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho.

That's where the conversation happens there on Twitter.

And you can chat about this episode also on Reddit at maximumfun.reddit.com.

Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account.

That's instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

I really recommend checking out this AMC gremlin.

It is premium.

What a slick gremlin.

Yeah.

Okay, our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

Now Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment, Joel says, my wife doesn't want to go ice fishing.

She worries we will end up adrift on an ice flow.

I'm not really into ice fishing, but I want us to try it.

She regularly sends me news stories about people who end up adrift on ice flows.

I don't think she knows what ice fishing is and I don't think those news stories exist.

If there's some version of ice fishing where people go out on the ocean.

She may be thinking of polar bears.

I think she's thinking of polar bears jumping from ice flow to ice flow and then getting.

Yeah, that's not how human ice fishing.

Oh, maybe Joel's a polar bear.

Oh.

If you have a case for Judge Sean Hodgman, send it to us.

No cases too big or too small.

That's maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

To do it, there's a nice little form there.

You can send it to us.

Send us all your little details.

Maximumfund.org slash JJ H.

O.

And we'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

MaximumFund.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist owned.

Audience Supported.