Inside the Green Monster

Welcome to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

We're in chambers this week, clearing the docket.

And with me is a man who spent a solid seven minutes so resolutely staring into the middle distance that Jennifer Marmor and I thought his screen was frozen.

Yes.

Judge John Hodgman.

You know why I'm practicing my still sitting?

Why is that?

I am auditioning for Madame Toussaux.

Oh, congratulations.

That is a good booking.

Who will you be portraying?

I presume it's not John Hodgman.

I am auditioning as myself, but I'm happy for any role that they might put me in.

Got it.

So you're hoping to go into the comedy character actor slash podcaster wing?

Yeah.

Like next to Pete Holmes or whatever.

Absolutely.

The Hall of White guys.

Yeah.

You know, speaking of podcast, Jesse Thorne, I was talking to our friend Linda Holmes.

Oh, the great Linda Holmes from NPR's pop culture happy hour and sometime guest host of Bullseye with Jesse Thorne.

Yes, and a friend of our show.

And she's been on.

She is the person who coined the term little weirdsies, at least on this show.

Acclaimed novelist, Linda Holmes.

And we were chatting via, you know, thumb talk, you know,

on the phones.

Sure.

And I was explaining to her, like, I just don't go onto Twitter that often because I value my feelings and sanity, A.

And B, because I was like, you know,

it was just a natural 50-year-old thing to say.

It's like, who cares what I have to say?

You know?

Never thought that before when I was in my 30s, 40s.

Now I'm like, who cares what I have to say?

And then I realized, John Hodgman, don't think that way.

That's your kids talking, John Hodgman.

Who cares what you have to say?

Because

the reality is, Jesse, that I have people in my life.

I'm very lucky that I have people in my life who do care what I have to say.

And I don't have to go on Twitter to find them because they're either in my life, you know, as friends and colleagues, or they're in my life as listeners to this podcast.

So I said, you know, I know, I know people do care what I have to say, and I know where to find them, and I've got them now.

And I'm going to tell you what, Jesse, I got a lot to say this episode.

I got a lot.

Get ready for some lectures.

Sorry, what was I?

I was thinking about baseball.

No, no, I understand.

That's why.

Okay, well, let's get into the docket.

Here's a case from Andrew.

A few years ago, I was out playing a game with friends until about 3 a.m.

When I got home, I realized I didn't have my house keys.

I didn't want to wake my wife, who had to get up in three hours.

At the time, my friend was practicing lockpicking.

Oh, boy.

Since he was already awake,

that clarifies the game that they were out playing was definitely pickup basketball.

Okay.

Since he was already awake, I, of course, called him to help me break into my own room.

Wait a minute.

Wasn't he, were they not playing the game together?

Apparently, yeah.

Or he just knew that.

Apparently, they had traveled, they had traveled away from the game.

Okay, separately.

Okay.

Yeah, so he had probably gotten home by then.

Right.

And probably he wouldn't go right to bed because he probably wanted to get a little lock practice in before exactly the sacks.

Okay.

Exactly.

Or just work on his free throws.

Sure.

He was through the security door and halfway done with the inner door when my wife opened the door to ask what the hell we were doing.

She was wide awake and thoroughly freaked out by creepy lockpicking noises and the two shadowy, though identifiable, idiots on her doorstep.

Afterward, she was so wired from what she initially thought was a legitimate break-in that she slept like garbage.

There's no

ask at the end.

Yeah, there's not a dispute.

This guy knows he lost.

There's a request for punishment.

I guess.

I don't know, though.

I, of course, called him to help me break into my own home.

I love a little mischief, Jesse Thorne.

I love a little mischief.

And if you've got a friend who's been practicing lock picking, I mean, I can understand why this is an opportunity that would be hard,

hard to pass up.

Have you ever picked a lock, Jesse Thorne, of any kind?

I'm a demolitions guy.

Sure.

Sorry about that.

And Jennifer Marmor, I know that you're our escape vehicle driver, but have you ever defeated a lock of any kind with a credit card or anything?

Trying to think if I ever have.

They're good.

Locks are good.

Jennifer Marmor, the answer is no.

Yeah, no.

There was a lock picking class at Max FunCon East once, and I wanted to sit in on that, but I didn't sign up for the class because I was, you know, Max Fun staff and there were only a limited supply of locks.

So

that was in a hotel.

You could have picked every lock in that.

There's more

doors than people in there.

Gotta watch out for that hotel detective.

That's true.

That hotel dick.

Dick is short for detective, as in Dick Town, now available on FX on Hulu.

Okay.

So this is not a dispute.

This is a story of a scheme.

He's just a guy who had a scheme that was more complicated than it needed to be.

And it ended up going awry.

Let me say, Andrew, I have some fondness for you and your lockpick friend.

Staying up till three in the morning playing a game, whatever that game is.

Pick up basketball.

Pick up basketball, I suppose.

But what you did was wrong for two reasons.

One, the obvious one, you woke up your wife.

And two, I don't know where you're writing from or what you look like, but your story reminds me of something,

which is, and this isn't a pass judgment on you.

I don't know who you are, but I know from experience, white guys can get away with a lot of stuff.

I was about to ask if what it reminded you of was white privilege.

A little bit.

A little bit.

Yeah.

I snuck into the London zoo.

I got caught.

I got thrown in jail.

They spell it, G-A-O-L over there.

And they let me off.

They let me go.

The white guys let the other white guy go.

I wrote about it in my book.

I would occasionally shoplift a can of beer during my rebellious days freshman year of college at Yale University.

I would go into the grocery store and I'd put a can of beer in my leather jacket, walk out like a tough guy.

I know, right?

Bad to the bubba

bone.

I thought it was all good fun.

And so did the white guys who let me off and did nothing to stop me there either.

Now, is this your own property that you're breaking into?

And are you in the middle of the woods and no one would ever see you?

That would be a mitigating factor.

But you talk about a security door.

So maybe this is an apartment building.

Maybe it wasn't just your wife who got alarmed.

Maybe another neighbor might call the police on you.

And maybe that would be no problem for you, Andrew, for any number of reasons.

But for some people, having the police called on them, even breaking into their own apartment building, maybe it wouldn't go so good.

Yeah, I mean, Andrew, you can rely on the fact that the police will trust you.

You don't have a high-risk job like professor at Harvard that would lead the police to hassle you.

Right.

Taking into your own home.

To reference

Henry Lewis skip Gates.

Right.

Not exactly current, but still meaningful event.

Yes.

And illustrative.

Yeah.

So next time you think about getting up to some mischief, Andrew, maybe also give a thought to the many people who cannot afford to get up to some mischief, who devote a considerable part of their awake brain being careful they don't look too mischievous, even at the front door of their own home.

That's just a thought I'm sharing, since you care what I have to say.

I gotcha.

But yeah, lockpicking is pretty awesome.

Take a class and pick locks in light of day.

Have your friend teach us how to do it.

That'd be fun.

Jennifer Marmor's been wanting to learn how to pick locks forever, but she got shut out of that snobby lock picking class.

Didn't have enough locks.

Gatekeepers.

I hate it when when lockpicks are gatekeepers.

You know what I mean?

It's another lock.

Yeah, you're snugging

openers.

Yeah, exactly.

I imagined immediately how cool it would be if you had a lock picking friend and you broke into

the Boston garden to play pickup basketball.

Specifically that sound when you turn on the lights that goes junk, junk.

You know what I mean?

I just got to give a shout out to our friend.

Josh Cantor, who plays the organ at Fenway Park.

And snuck us into Fenway Park.

He didn't sneak us.

It was totally legal.

He waved to a guy.

He let us in and he led us on the field of Fenway Park.

We went inside the Green Monster.

We went inside the Green Monster, which is a fancy name for a wall.

But even for a person who stopped following the Boston Red Sox the moment the ball went through that guy's legs, who was that guy?

Bill Buckner.

Bill Buckner.

See, I can't even remember his name.

I forgot it out of spite and also forgetfulness.

Even as a non-sporto person, that was a lot of fun.

That was meaningful to me to be on that field.

That was incredible.

I can only imagine what it meant to you because your favorite sports team is the Boston Red Sox, obviously, right, Jesse?

John, you know how I feel about oil can Boyd.

I was going to say Oil Can Boyd.

There should be more.

Listen, let me give some advice to sports because I know you care about what I have to say.

You should have more players with nicknames like Oil Can, and I'd watch them.

Maybe this is for players, but like,

give me an oil can or, you know, like, what are some of our, our favorite dog names.

Like, if you had a, if you had a baseballer whose nickname was Eggo Waffle, I'd watch that.

Yeah.

Eggo Waffle Jones.

I mean, we should never let the opportunity slip by to mention a former Major League Baseball designated hitter, Billy Butler, known as Country Breakfast.

Oh, boy.

I'll watch that all day long.

At a husky build.

Country Breakfast.

Here's something from Kathy.

My roommate Max insists on referring almost daily to, quote, the teppery bean, the world's most drought-resistant bean, unquote.

I believe that this title belongs to Mr.

Bean,

who has agency and would find water for himself in a drought.

This conflict is tearing us and our two other roommates apart.

Please order Max to recognize the truth.

Thank you, Kathy.

First of all, Kathy, may I say Ack to you?

Kathy, our listener, spells her name Kathy, like the comic strip with a C.

And Jesse, I just want to, here's a little plug.

Last summer, I listened to a podcast called The Ack Cast.

Jennifer Marma, did you listen to that?

Yeah, I definitely did.

It was really good, right?

I loved it.

Jamie Loftus did an eight-part podcast on the Kathy comic strip and its creator, Kathy Guisewhite, and like the history of the woman in cartooning, why Kathy shouldn't be the butt of so many jokes, because while Loftus says it in a more salty way in the podcast, Kathy slaps.

Do you know what the eighth episode was called when she finally interviewed Kathy Guisewhite?

Went to her house, Jesse.

What was it called?

And this is from someone who we have puns to name many of our shows.

Sure.

Do you know what it was when she interviewed Kathy Guisewhite?

I give up.

Guisewhite shut.

Final episode.

Like, don't you feel like the whole podcast started when she thought of that joke?

Yeah, probably.

All right, most likely.

On to the beans.

First of all, let's separate the character, Mr.

Bean, from his creator, Rowan Atkinson.

Mr.

Bean, let's get this out of the way right away.

Mr.

Bean, the character, is a lovable, largely unspeaking nincompoop who gets into all sorts of scrapes and trubs, but clearly could not find water for himself in a drought.

No, he can't even find his head's way out of a turkey.

I know, he got his head stuck in a turkey, which is a terrible source of water.

Unless you're thirsting for salmonella.

Yeah.

Now, Rowan Atkinson is smart, maybe too smart.

He's one of my favorite comedic genius people.

I loathe Mr.

Bean.

I find it tiresome.

Yeah.

But I love Black Adder, especially the smart Black Adders, not the dumb Mr.

Beanie ones.

How many Black Adders are there?

If you know, you know.

But Black Adder III, that's the best one.

You like Black Adder, Jesse?

I like that you're coming with these 1989 PBS nerd ticks.

Yeah.

You know what?

It needs to be said.

Rowan Atkinson is an older gentleman.

Let's have a talk about Red Dwarf.

Why not?

Sure.

It's great.

Black Adder III has Hugh Laurie and Rowan Atkinson and all the other friends.

It's really funny.

It's really smart.

It's worth watching.

And it's worth separating Black Out of the character from Rowan Atkinson, the person.

Look, sadly, and kind of a bummer for me, but presumably not for him.

Rowan Atkinson's recently gotten very upset about cancel culture because he worries that Twitter mobs will prevent him from exercising his free speech and stop him from making jokes that he wants to make.

You know what's stopping him from exercising his free speech, speech john no what his head's stuck in a dang turkey that's right maybe you can take that turkey off your head you can talk a little bit more clearly exactly i don't know that anyone's actually tried to cancel rowan atkinson or what these special jokes are that he's holding back on out of fear of being canceled i don't maybe i don't want to know what these jokes are but rowan atkinson don't worry you can make your this is a period of time where more people have more free speech than ever before for good bad and ugly

Maybe some of them are people who couldn't talk back to you before.

Maybe some of them have access to platforms that didn't exist

when you could say whatever you wanted and

get away with it.

I don't know, Rowan Atkinson.

I like you.

Just say your things.

Be glad someone cares.

Okay, so we get Mr.

Bean out of the way.

What we're left with is this temporary bean.

Excuse me, tippery bean.

I never heard of this bean before.

Have you, Jesse?

I've heard that it's a long way to temporary bean.

I don't know.

Guys, white shut.

Guys, white shut should shut down all puns for the rest of time.

Yeah.

I'm going to tell you this.

i looked into this and folks what a bean phasiolus acutifolius meaning cute leaf bean

no it means sharp sharp angled leaf bean and yes it is more drought resistant than almost any other bean or legume especially not the common bean phasiolus vulgaris

The tepary bean, it does need to be planted in moist soil, which is great two words to say together.

Moist soil, moist soil.

But after that, Jesse, it barely needs any water at all.

You can be harvesting beans out of the desert like two months after the last rainfall.

And in fact, water hurts tippery beans.

They need to be thirsty in order to flower.

Now, not surprisingly, they've been cultivated by indigenous people in what is now northwestern Mexico and the southwestern U.S.

for millennia, long before Mexico and the U.S.

invaded, renamed, and occupied that land.

Colonialism, the original cancel culture.

We canceled whole cultures.

That's what we have to worry about, Rowan Atkinson.

Native peoples made tepari beans as one-third of the three sisters system of agriculture.

The other two sisters, maize and squash.

Squaws and squash, baby.

Yeah.

I should have let you say that.

Yeah.

I knew the three sisters.

So shout out to the Thana Autham people for cultivating the teperi and making the Sonoran desert livable and full of beans.

Do you know what the Thona

word for tepari is?

Tepperi bean?

No.

Tapawi.

I think that's where tepperi comes from.

And tepawi

in that language means it's a bean.

Sure.

You know, I watched one of my favorite films from my adolescence

not long ago, Waiting for Guffman.

Movie came out when I was a teen.

Yeah.

And I was, you know, doing, doing theater at School of the Arts, now the Ruth Osawa School of the Arts in San Francisco.

Yeah.

Immediately became my favorite favorite film of all time.

It's really good.

I would say, you know, there are parts of the central characterization that don't hold up all that well, but

it remains a very, very funny part.

And in re-watching it, I remembered that the very funniest part is in the show, within the show,

when the narrator says, beans.

I love beans, big, fat, hot, juicy beans.

But don't get me started on beans.

I can't even look at beans without thinking about that.

I can't look at chili.

I can't look at lima beans.

I can't look at premium beans or value beans without thinking about, I love beans, big, fat, hot, juicy beans, but don't get me started on beans.

Beans.

Beans are terrific.

I am really pro-beans and I understand what that don't get me started on beans.

I've recently rediscovered beans and boy, oh boy.

I mean, they're obviously the core of a plant-based diet, which I am not on, but I respect very much.

They're one-third of the Three Sisters agriculture system.

What are the other two?

Squash and maize.

Squash and maize.

And they're, I mean, frankly, beans are more important than Mr.

Bean.

Sorry.

I mean, I don't think you need to apologize for it.

Yeah, let's move on.

We're going to take a quick break to hear from this week's partner.

We'll be back with more cases to clear from the docket on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The braised short ribs, made in, made in.

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But made in isn't just for professional chefs it's for home cooks too and even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made in cookware it's the stuff that professional chefs use but because it is sold directly to you it's a lot more affordable uh than some of the other high-end brands We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

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It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

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griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware.

I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We are clearing the docket and we have a case from Cat in Midland, Michigan.

My co-worker, Connor, says memes are art.

I disagree.

To claim that memes are art seems degrading to the work artists do.

Connor is a musician, so he's not unfamiliar with the art world.

He's posted on social media asking if memes are art, and his friends all agreed.

I just can't view slapping text on a picture as art.

That said, I'm not saying memes can't be art, just that memes as a group are not art.

So

what do we know about Connor?

Colleague of Katz in Midland, Michigan.

Musician.

Musician.

But not a full-time musician unless they, I mean, they work together and it seems like a non-musical environment.

Yeah, that's true.

Has friends on social media?

Sure.

From a certain point of view.

Every now and then leans over to Kat and just says, memes are art.

And when she says no, he goes, I'll prove it, goes to social media.

And he posts that picture of Stephen Crowder on the college campus with the sign that says, change my mind.

Is that who that guy is in that meme?

Yeah, that's Steven Crowder.

That's one of the crazy things about that meme is that people just think it's a goofy change my mind guy when actually he

showed up at a college campus with a sign that said, male privilege is a myth.

Change my mind.

Oh, boy.

He's not canceled.

All right.

Connor, I don't know anything about you, but based on the data set I got, I don't like you.

I don't have a good feeling about Connor.

Just sitting there saying memes are art to his coworker feels a little trolly to me, honestly.

Vibes are wrong.

Vibes are wrong here.

Bad vibes.

Let's do a quick vibe check.

Vibes feel wrong.

Wrong.

Off, a little off.

Connor, I could be totally wrong.

I could be totally wrong.

I don't know anything about you or Kat.

So, you know, My vibes don't matter, especially when it comes to justice.

Because even though the vibes are off, Connor could not be more correct.

And Kat, that means you're wrong.

Jesse, I'm going to ask you three questions.

Please wait for the complete question.

Okay.

Then I can cross the bridge.

Yes.

I have every faith that you're going to answer correctly.

Okay.

Jesse, is photography art even though it takes less work, quote unquote, than painting?

Yes.

Is graffiti art even though it is taught and practiced outside of the traditional art education world?

Yes.

Okay.

And is is Tilda Swinton sleeping in a glass box at the Museum of Modern Art art?

Yes.

Okay, I'm going to let that last one slide, Jesse, because the correct answers in order are yes, yes, and oh my God, or whatever, yes.

I'm so mad I miss seeing Tilda Swinton sleep in a glass box at the Museum of Modern Art.

I've never even been to the Museum of Modern Art.

Can you believe that?

I live in New York City for 25 years.

Wow.

Never even gone to it.

I'm not even sure I know where it is.

Maybe that's why I didn't go to see Tilda Swinton sleep in a glass box.

John, I've lived in Hollywood for 15 years and I don't have a career.

No,

don't make me respond to that.

Cat, we got to define our terms here.

First of all, what you're talking about specifically is an image macro.

This is what Wikipedia told me today is what this thing is called.

What you call a meme, and not wrongly, I mean, they're known as memes, but they're a specific kind of meme called an image macro.

This is a picture of a grumpy cat with words up above or an oh really owl or one guy looking at another girl.

Drake likes one thing, but he doesn't like the other thing.

He doesn't like the other thing.

It's a picture stamped with words and spread all over the internet.

We call them memes now.

That's true.

But the fact that we call them memes is itself a meme because a meme as originally defined per Merriam-Webster, who usually get everything right, except for the fact that a hot dog is not a sandwich.

Merriam-Webster says a meme is an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from one person to another in a culture.

It's an idea.

It could be a joke.

It could be a kind of a way of wearing your scarf.

It could be a point of view.

It could be a definition of God or whatever.

It could be the way that people make little points at the end of a roll of toilet paper.

You see that in hotels?

No one knows why they do that.

They're repeating it.

It's any unit of conscious imagination that is repeated unconsciously.

That's what it was.

That's what it originally was when the the term was coined in 1976.

And I'm not going to say by whom it was coined, because I'm not a huge fan.

And that is not cancellation.

It is just me using my freedom to not speak.

And it doesn't matter because a meme doesn't care what that guy has to say.

That was that guy's whole idea.

A meme is an idea.

It uses human minds to replicate itself the same way a gene uses human bodies to replicate itself through hugging and kissing.

The meme that is a meme doesn't belong to him anymore.

A meme belongs to no one.

And guess what?

A meme is not art.

Aha, so you win that one, cat.

Simply repeating a unit of cultural imagination, an idea is not art, usually.

It depends.

But what you're describing, an image macro, or maybe macro, what do you say, Jesse?

Macro or macro?

Yeah, macro.

Macro, phew.

People get rough on me in the letters these days.

It's okay.

I can take it.

Even when I can't respond, even when I can't respond or I'm mad about it or it hurts me, you usually write about something and I care about what you have to say.

An image macro is absolutely art

because putting those words on that picture is an act of imagination.

You're choosing materials and then you're executing it.

You're doing it.

And just because it's using found materials, that's a collage.

That's bricolage.

Do you know that term bricolage, Jesse Thorne?

I don't know that.

It's a French term.

I think I learned it.

I don't remember where I learned it, but it means almost literally to tinker, and it describes anything that you make with what's at hand.

And sometimes that's art, or sometimes it's a tool, you know, it's an act of invention, ricollage,

making a do with what's at hand.

That's art.

And I would even say,

what do you think about this?

Would you say that using a meme can be art, Jesse?

In other words, not making one, but picking one to respond to someone else in a public conversation or something?

Wow, that's an interesting question.

That might be stretching my definition of art, although I would say it would be possible to make art by using memes.

Right.

You could

combine memes.

Yeah.

I'm going to stretch it, and I'll explain why in a minute, but I will say that dropping the right meme at the right time requires imagination and a choice of materials and execution, the doing of it.

Because you're deploying something found or mundane or common into a new context.

Tilda Swinton, Jesse, sleeps every night.

It's boring.

But when she sleeps in a glass box in a museum, that's art.

But of course, that's just a metaphor because sleeping in a glass box in a museum is the only time Tilda Swinton sleeps.

I mean, we all know that.

Otherwise, she's just staring into the middle distance.

Do you ever interview her on Bullseye, Jesse?

God, I'd love to.

Tilda, go on bullseye.

Tilda, go on bullseye.

I think that would be such a cool conversation that I would like to listen to.

Have you ever read Scott McLeod's book, Understanding Comics?

Yes, huge fan of that book.

It's a wonderful book that is about how to understand and interpret comics, but also sort of gets to the nature of comics and the history of comics as a form, and in so doing gets at the very nature of art.

Yeah.

And I think McLeod does a wonderful job in essentially making a cartoon of the definition of art, which is to say, bringing it to its most salient lines,

its most salient and suggestive lines, which are, you know, my memory is that he defines art as that which human beings do that is not necessary for their survival.

Yeah.

Not necessary for their physical survival, but I think necessary for their emotional survival.

Making and consuming art.

I don't know.

I'm against it.

Cat.

Prove me wrong.

Art is not necessary.

No.

There are a lot of Steven Crowders out there who would say that very thing on a college campus.

Cat, be careful.

It is true that different art forms require different kinds of skills, and some of those skills are skills of physical dexterity, like...

sculpting and painting, take years of training, and some aren't.

I would say any act of imagination, choice of materials, and the doing of it, the execution of it.

I would say that it's probably art.

And I would say that calling things not art is complicated by the fact that it's historically a means of cultural denigration.

Rap music isn't music being just one example that I used to hear all the time in the 80s,

but which you don't hear much anymore because obviously that's wrong.

Yeah, it's a very was dumb then and it's dumb now.

Right.

But people weren't saying it because they were misinformed.

People were saying it because it terrified them.

It was doing what rap music was supposed to be doing, which was destabilizing the conversation.

Yes.

So the world isn't made better by policing what isn't, isn't art.

Don't be a gatekeeper like those lockpicks.

The world is made better by more art.

Here's something from Gail.

I live in the frozen north of Wisconsin where we have to spend a lot of time indoors now that winter's upon us.

I need advice on a problem that's becoming a constant source of annoyance at home.

My husband is a devoted fan of country swing music.

I find this music nothing but repetitive, raucous, and irritating.

He seems to need an almost constant diet of it on any given day.

I have voiced my extreme displeasure with being a victim of this awful din, so he got earbuds that prevent the noise from escaping his own head.

However, now he sits at the kitchen counter with his coffee and his New York Times crossword puzzle and methodically taps his darn foot on the floor in time to his music.

This is as bad as the music itself.

Wow.

I have complained to him that he needs to stop the foot tapping, but he responds that he's done his part by eliminating the actual music.

Please give me advice before my 34-year-long marriage deteriorates.

Sincerely, Gail, wasted in Wisconsin.

I like that she brings the brings brings the old Dear Abbey flair to it.

And that the Dear Abbey flair is not directly related to the story.

It's just a character note.

It's a good point.

I think what she's trying to say is that

her

sense of self is being eroded by the constant toe-tapping of her husband.

Got it.

Wasting away.

And it sounds desperate up there in northern Wisconsin.

I hope that everything's still okay since you sent this email because it does seem like you're on the verge of a crisis.

But here's the thing: this is what I have to say to you, Gil.

Deep within my heart lies a melody,

a song of old San Anton.

Where in dreams I live with a memory beneath the stars alone.

It was there I found side the alamo Enchantment strange as blue up above

A moonlit past that only she would know Still hears my broken song of love Now you can throw in a couple of like ahas in there, okay?

Moon moon moon moon moon in all your splendor know only of my heart Call back my rose, rose of san and tone, lips so sweet and tender, like petals falling apart.

Speak once again of my love, my own.

Broken song, empty words, I know, still live in my heart, alone.

I think I changed key in there.

You changed the melody entirely, but I enjoyed it.

No, I went to the, but I did not change the melody.

I think you returned to the melody eventually.

I sang the bridge.

It wasn't much of a woo-hoo type song, but yeah, but if you listen to I thought I added a lot with that brief saw solo in the beginning.

That was good.

If you listen to the that's New San Antonio Rose, if you listen to it played by Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys, you would know that that was the bridge that I was imitating, imitating.

I agree that it was not art.

That was repetition.

And not deployed particularly imaginatively.

But that song is the theme song, the signature song of Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys.

And Western Swing is sort of this fiddly country music, swing band hybrid that was pretty much invented by Bob Wills and still enjoyed very much by me, obviously.

And also, it turns out, Willie Nelson.

So me and Willie Nelson, two people you seem to have a problem with, Gail.

Oh, and your husband.

Jesse, do you like Western Swing?

Sure.

It's not my top number one type of country music, but I do enjoy it.

What's top number one type of country music for Jesse Thorne?

George Jones.

Love George Jones.

Yeah.

The possum.

It's very corny music, the western swing.

It's a hoot and awesome.

Yeah, both.

And I can feel.

Squash and maze.

I can feel you too, Gail, because as much as I love Bob Wills and his Western Playboys,

as much as I love Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys, there's not a lot of other Western swing out there that I'm aware of.

And if you were to say to your smart speaker, hey, Siri, play Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys.

Okay.

Whoops.

Here's Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys.

I knew that was going to happen.

I don't even know what this song is.

Hey, Siri, turn it up.

This reminds me back when I was riding the rails.

I can't remember the name of the woman in the band whose job it is to simply say things during the song.

Like, okay,

come on, damn.

Hey, Siri, stop.

Now that was good fun, but if you were to just say that, your smart speaker, whatever brand you might use, would cycle through all the Bob Wills and his Texas Playboy song in most catalogs within three hours.

And then it's just over and over and over again.

And I can see why this could turn into a shining type situation for you up there, snowed in in Wisconsin, Gail.

But

here's the thing.

Another great movie about being stuck in a snowed in place.

The thing.

But here's the thing, Gail, you can't ask people not to smile.

You can't ask people not to cry, and you can't ask people not to tap their toes.

Your husband's already put his earbuds in.

Let the fella tap his toes.

Do you disagree with me, Jesse, or what?

You know, when you moved your microphone over towards your smart speaker, do you know what I started doing unconsciously almost immediately?

Making a note to tell John Hodgman how to run a successful podcast.

Tapping my toes, John.

Oh, it's a toe-tapper.

Tapping my toes.

That was a toe-tapper.

Yeah,

you can't tell people not to tap their toes.

You can't patrol everything about them.

I mean, unless he's doing some mega tapping, you know, there can be some bad taps.

So I would caution Gail's husband, presuming he wishes to keep his life, to make sure that he keeps his toe-tapping on the quiet toe-tap scale.

If it's getting into whistling or he's doing a lot of table drumming,

I think we have a new theme song.

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

That's too much.

Okay.

Oh, but Jesse Thorne, wait a minute.

Northern Wisconsin.

Jesse.

John.

Do you know a body body of water stops northern Wisconsin dead in its tracks on its northern border?

This is for real.

I don't.

I guess it's probably a Great Lake.

Without this body of water, I'll give you a hint.

Without this body of water, Wisconsin would just keep going, but it's stopped by Lake Superior, which happens to be the one lake I have not covered in my Great Lakes Beach Report.

Now, I know you care about what I have to say, but Jesse,

I also know what you don't care about.

So I'm going to save this one for after the credits.

Great.

You don't have to listen to it.

You can go home.

Thank you, John.

Thank you.

Hey, Jesse.

Thank you for everything.

John, Jennifer, did you square dance in PE class?

Yes.

No, but I did in Girl Scouts.

What?

That's awesome.

We had a dad-daughter square dance.

Okay, now vibes are getting off.

It was weird.

Now that I think about it, you know, it's like, what about the kids that didn't have dads to take with them?

I don't know.

I was a child.

I didn't think about that.

No, of course.

What about the kids who weren't squares?

Just kidding.

There weren't any.

They were in the Girl Scouts.

Whoa.

Wow.

No, I was a total square.

I didn't know you were into scouting.

How long were you a Girl Scout for?

Oh, not very.

I was a brownie.

And then around June years, I got really bored of it.

And my mom mom was like, do you want to be going to this?

And I was like, nah.

And we stopped.

I'll probably buy the convenience store smoking cigarettes.

You know what?

I'll tell you what.

I'll buy the cookies.

How about that?

Yeah, that's all I cared about.

Yeah, I'll buy the cookie.

I don't need to sell them.

I'll buy them.

I know where I can get them.

From my friends who are still in Girl Scouts.

Hey, everybody who does the crossword.

The Girl Scout logo is a trefoil.

It's a trefoil.

It's a good crossword word.

It's a good crossword clue and a good Girl Scout cookie, the tree foil.

Overlooked a lot, I think.

Shortbread.

Love it.

Yeah, I love a shortbread because it leans savory.

Jesse, I did square dancing in PE.

Why do you ask?

It's just been going around that people did square dancing in PE.

It sounds insane to me.

Why?

Well, because people, in PE, you do normal stuff.

Like, you know, I did basketball.

Right.

The thing with

the parachute, Afro-Haitian dance.

Right.

Just regular stuff that everyone has done.

Well, maybe it wasn't in PE class, though.

If it were, I would have been very happy.

That is my asthmatic speed.

But

I remember doing it in the cafeteria at Heath School in Brookline, Massachusetts, my first elementary school.

You're welcome.

Now you have one of my security questions, everybody.

That's how much I trust you.

My mother's maiden name is Callahan.

I liked doing the square dancing.

And I think one of the teachers eventually just,

I used to have conversations with my elementary school teachers, like, why do we have tests?

Big philosophical questions.

Drama of the gifted child.

I was always a question asker.

Why are we doing this?

And the teacher said, we do square dancing so that you all can get used to touching each other.

I mean, not in an inappropriate way, but having physical contact with other humans.

I was like, all right, I'll buy that.

Let's dozy dough, Ms.

Kirsch.

It's like when you're training a puppy, you teach them to mouth gently.

Yeah, we also had mouthing class.

That's where your teacher would put a treat in her hand and close it like a fist.

John, you know how the song went for Afrohaitian dance?

Toto sake la se buena puluwe.

Toto sake la se buena puluwe.

Sapulu we, sa puluwe la eche

That sounds like a great PE class.

Shout out to Michelle, my Afro-Haitian dance teacher.

When I went back to my high school, she gave me a big hug.

That's nice.

Let's take a quick break when we come back.

A case about potted plants.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

so check it out on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts

all right we're over 70 episodes into our show let's learn everything so let's do a quick progress check have we learned about quantum physics yes episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom London.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're taking a quick break from clearing the docket.

We're talking about what we have going on elsewhere in the world.

Anything interesting going on with you, John?

No, not at all.

So I'm going to recommend a couple of other things.

One is for reasons that will become apparent perhaps later,

there's a book that everyone could enjoy called Flash of the Spirit by Robert Ferris Thompson.

I won't say any more about it.

I also was so excited because I pre-ordered a book and I had forgotten that I had pre-ordered it long, long ago.

And suddenly it arrived.

That is The Devil House by John Darneill.

Picked it up at Books Are Magic over there in Cobble Hill, Brooklyn.

And also, while I was there, I realized that another book that I had been waiting for had come out that I'd forgotten.

It was like a special little surprise, which is The Veiled Throne by Ken Liu.

And Ken Liu writes science fiction and fantasy novels.

And The Veiled Throne is part three of his Dandelion Dynasty trilogy.

And it's the Grace of Kings, The Wall of Storms, and the Veiled Throne.

So, obviously, you want to start at the beginning, and I really encourage you to.

The Grace of Kings is such a fun book.

And what Ken Liu does, aside from write really compelling characters and really fun, interesting story,

is he re-situates all fantasy tropes, which are obviously quite hide-bound or rather chainmail-bound in European medieval tropes and re-situates them all in tropes from Asian culture, specifically Chinese culture.

So it is narratively very different from a kind of fantasy book that you would read.

And in that way, much more unexpected because you don't have the pre-programming of what to expect when you read a fantasy or really any kind of Western originating Western European novel.

And it's really great,

and it's just fun and And the characters are great.

So The Grace of Kings by Ken Liu.

The Devil House by John Darneal.

Can't wait to start that one.

And of course, Dick Town continues on FX and Hulu, bit.ly slash Dicktown.

I hope to have some news about a secret project from me and David Reese soon.

Let me just say it involves the Polaris slingshot.

Look that up if you care for a clue.

We won't get anywhere, but you'll look at a really cool motorcycle car.

Jesse, what do you have going on?

Well, on Bullseye, I have two great book interviews coming up with two great authors of two great books.

One of them is a friend of this program,

J.

Kenji Lopez-Alt.

Yes.

The wonderful writer and chef.

He has a new book out called The Walk, Recipes and Techniques.

It's about cooking in a walk.

It is a really cool and fascinating book, as all of Kenji's work is.

And I did a big interview with him for Bullseye that is coming soon to Bullseye with Jesse Thorne.

So go subscribe to the podcast.

And one of my favorite writers and frankly, one of my favorite public personages, one of the coolest, smartest, and funniest people I've ever had the pleasure to know is Mary Roach.

Oh, she's so wonderful.

She's the best.

She rules.

And Mary Roach is not only on Jordan Jesse Go.

upcoming, but she is also on Bullseye to talk about her new book, Fuzz,

which is about when animals break human rules.

Wow.

And

it does feature her getting mugged by a monkey.

Oh, no.

Yeah, Mary got mugged by a monkey.

She was safe and just got her bananas.

They're going to come back.

Some

coordinated attack to get her bananas.

Yeah, you carry bananas around

an ape.

Yeah, that's what she said.

She said, to be fair, she was carrying a sack of bananas.

Yeah.

So she sort of prodded on herself.

Anyway, Mary Roach is on both Bullseye and Jordan Jesse Go, and her book is so great.

So is Kenji's book about the walk.

So go order those books as well.

What a great book club we have.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We have a case here from Danielle in Toronto.

I have a long-standing dispute with one of my childhood best friends, Elena.

Elena believes potted plants plants are always better than cut plants, such as cut flowers, Christmas trees, and so forth.

She says potted plants should always be chosen for gifts or personal use.

I believe there's a place for cut plants.

Gifting potted plants can sometimes be an imposition, and cut plants offer an ephemeral beauty that's appropriate in many situations.

I would like the judge to order her to admit that cut plants have value and to send a bouquet of flowers to a loved one on a fitting occasion in 2022.

A New Year's resolution to send flowers.

Thank you, Danielle.

I hope you're doing okay up there in Toronto.

The big smoke, say hello to Ennis Esmer for me and say hi to Lake Ontario for me, please.

Before I adjudicate your plant issue, I'm going to commandeer this moment just to say that a hero of mine passed away recently, Robert Ferris Thompson.

You know who that guy is, Jesse?

You don't, do you?

No.

Probably not.

He was a professor at art history at Yale and the beloved head of Timothy Dwight College.

That's one of our residential colleges.

He was there for more than 50 years.

He was known as Master T.

But on campus, he was best known for the class called Mambo.

Technically, the full name was New York Mambo Microcosm of Black Creativity.

But it was known as Mambo.

or taking Mambo.

And a lot of students showed up to Mambo, I think,

because they knew that Master T was kind of a kook and that he taught his class with slides, which very few professors did.

I mean, it was art history, you know, course, but he was using all kinds of mixed media.

He played rap music and salsa music in class, and he danced and he drummed the lectern, and he punctuated his lectures loudly with explosions into French and Spanish and Yoruba.

But

whatever they were looking for when they got there, what they got and what I got was a tour

with him of the path of African art and music from West Africa, which was Thompson's primary research area, to what we now call the Americas, what we now call the Indies, what we now call Rio and Kingston and Miami and Atlanta, Chicago, New York, et cetera.

And this path, of course, was one of devastation and dehumanization and death.

But what Robert Ferris Thompson wanted to show was how black creativity would not be destroyed or denied, but remade and reinvented at each stop from what was at hand, materials, instruments, culture.

What those students got, what I got, was a flash of the spirit, which is the name of Robert Ferris Thompson's book, which is the basis of the course, which I recommend.

He would bring people to class.

He was very, very good friends with David Byrne,

which would have thrilled me if he had brought David Byrne to class that year, but he didn't.

But I got lucky because

he brought Yusun Undur to class.

Cool.

And he brought Willie Cologne came to the class.

Oh, dang.

Yeah.

Like,

this guy was connected at every

level of New York musical culture.

He took us outside to have class, which is always a bonus.

And we would go out into the old campus and he had a guy, a capoeira instructor, teach us capoeira,

some basic moves.

You ever do capoeira?

Yeah.

I went to Ruthesawa School of the Arts in San Francisco.

Of course I did Capoeira.

I know, but you have to understand, this was 1990 at Yale.

Yeah.

And certainly it was new to me.

And if you don't know, Capoeira is an African-Brazilian dance tradition, but he was the one who explained, this is a dance, but the dance is a disguise.

It's actually a martial art.

Even John Kellogg Hodgman of Brookline, Massachusetts in 1990 knew that rap music was music.

I was a smart guy.

But this was the first time that I saw the scope and the persistence and the power of what we now call rightly black brilliance and Afro-Latin brilliance and Latin brilliance and Asian brilliance and

Tha-naw Atham brilliance and all native brilliance and all non-white brilliance, so much of which had never been taught at Yale, had never been taught to me.

He showed a photo of a young West African woman, I don't remember the country she was from, with braided hair.

And he said to the class, what is she telling you?

And

we didn't know.

Or if there were people who did know, they didn't speak up.

And after a long pause, he explained how it takes deep skill, time, craftspersonship, and patience for someone to braid your hair that way.

It's not like making a meme.

And wearing it means you are a member of a community that cares for you.

And he said, she is telling you that she has friends.

And I did not, I did not, could not see that.

And now I can't unsee it.

All of my, I know that I've dominated this one, Jesse, and I apologize with all my, all my thoughts and all my rambling lecture style from this episode, all the tangents and odd connections is a complete crib from Robert Ferris Thompson.

He taught me to think that way.

He taught me to see the world with slightly clearer eyes, to see the connections, to be careful not to be quick to say what is and isn't art, to see the messages everyone is sending and care about what everyone has to say.

Obviously, even at the time, a white guy playing conga drums and talking about rap music in a Yale lecture hall had a friction to it.

People were like, I'm not sure this is okay.

And maybe they were right.

But he never got canceled.

And now maybe because he approached a subject with reverence, respect, and sheer freaking enthusiasm.

He was not appropriating culture.

He was trying to elevate it.

He sought to explore and share and get out of the way.

Maybe he just got lucky and didn't get canceled.

If you're someone who knew him and took issue with him, or when he told me about something in his work that I missed or something problematic or wrong in his legacy, let me know.

I get it.

Our heroes aren't perfect.

And I know you're not shy about telling me I'm wrong in your letters.

And, you know, I care.

I care to hear it.

But what I got from him is a meme of decency and passion and curiosity and fun.

It does not rely on its author or its origin to be potent.

And it's what I try to pass along here.

And I'm grateful that I have...

you two, Jesse and Jennifer, to share it with, and obviously you, the listeners,

as well.

So thank you.

If you want, you can read more about Robert Ferris Thompson in the really thoughtful obituary in the Yale Daily News from December 1st.

It was written by Isaac Yu,

who I don't know who Isaac Yu is, but he or they is an incredibly talented writer.

Sadly, for important reasons, only my second favorite writer at the Yale Daily News.

But good job, Isaac Yu.

There are lots of videos of Robert Ferris Thompson giving lectures and

talks all over the world, which you can check out.

And, you know, he passed away.

He was 88 years old, had a huge life.

And that obituary, Isaac Yu wrote about, Robert Ferris Thompson apparently had a rallying cry, which is Ashe, which is a Yoruba word meaning we make it happen.

Michelle used to have us say that.

Really?

Prohitian.

Yeah.

Ashe.

Am I saying it correctly?

Yeah.

Well, that's how Michelle said it.

Right.

She wasn't Yorubin, but.

Right.

Well, I never knew about Ashe, even though I took this class and I love this guy.

Maybe because he mostly used it at sporting events, apparently, which he liked.

Cool.

He liked sporting events.

Okay, nobody's perfect.

I get it.

Your heroes aren't perfect.

But these are trying times.

And so I say to you and everybody, Ashe.

And meanwhile, yeah, cut plants have a place.

It's in a vase.

Flowers are great.

I don't understand.

A potted plant is something you have to take care of.

Flowers are pretty things that you get and make you feel cared for.

They let you know you have friends.

Send some flowers, Danielle's friend.

You know who came to my class in college?

No.

You think I'm going to say Dave Eggers, because Dave Eggers did, God bless him.

But actually, what I'm going to say is not even someone who came to my class at UC Santa Cruz, but rather someone who came to my class at San Francisco State,

where my professor.

in the class History of Funk was Ricky Vincent, aka the Uhuru maggot.

Whoa.

And

he had a friend come to class, a man named George Clinton.

Whoa.

Came to our class of about 20 people

in San Francisco State, sat, hung out with us, and answered questions for an hour, hour and a half.

And it was basically the greatest thing that ever happened in my life, including when I later interviewed George Clinton for an hour or an hour and a half many years later.

It was so great.

Did you remind him?

I did.

I thanked him for that.

And I thanked Ricky for that, too.

Ricky is

still working as a writer and professor out there.

Shout out to Ricky Vincent, the Uhuru maggot.

That's an incredible nickname.

You know who also came to the cafeteria in Heath School one time?

Who's that, John?

Rick O'Kasick of the Cars.

You know what?

I've used all my bullets.

You went to Yale.

I went to Santa Cruz in San Francisco State.

So

we're at the end.

I'm going to just start listing that two of the guys from Culture Clash went to grad school with my mom at state.

That's all I got.

I apologize.

I One time I saw Dick Gregory do a talk, but I mean, like, I had to buy a ticket to that.

It's pretty good.

Jennifer Marmon, you ever have any fun visitors to class?

Trying to think.

I can't think of any.

The older brother from Boy Meets World came to my eighth grade awards ceremony for some reason.

Okay.

Not sure why.

Can I go back to the flowers?

Yeah, of course.

I'm sorry.

I think that the point you made, you know, flowers are pretty things that make you feel cared for when people send you flowers is 100% true.

But I also want to make a recommendation to buy yourself some flowers.

You don't need to wait for somebody to buy you flowers.

That's something that my grandmother would do a lot.

You know, she used to say, buy yourself flowers if you're feeling blue.

You can't feel blue if you're looking at some pretty flowers.

And

that was something that was important to her.

It was important to my mom.

I always grew up with cut flowers in the house.

And now when I'm grocery shopping and I see some flowers that I like, I just buy them because they make me feel good.

And I don't need to wait for somebody to buy me flowers.

Although I know there are people who don't like to have cut flowers in their home because they die and it's sad for them, but for me,

it's nice.

And I don't, I'm not good at taking care of plants.

So

it's nice to have flowers that I know when they are done, it's not my fault.

I was going to say,

a couple of winter times ago, we were up in Maine and our neighbors had a Yankee swap, which

is a gift-giving sort of everyone tries to get the best gifts and dump the worst gifts off on the other people.

It's just fun.

Like a white elephant thing.

Yeah, exactly.

And

our young friend Cyrus, who's about our son's age,

he ended up getting a gift of crocus bulbs.

Cool.

And he's like, what do I do with these?

It's like,

You plant them and they grow.

And he goes, great.

You gave me a job to do.

That's what potted plants are, a job.

Yeah.

Elena, send Danielle some flowers.

Let's complete this cycle.

The docket is clear, and that's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

We're on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman.

John, you have your own Instagram account as well.

Yeah, it's at John Hodgman because whoever took at Hodgman hates me and is just sitting on it and won't do anything with it, which is fine.

I love my peeps over at at John Hodgman.

I love my peeps over at at judgejohnhodgman.

People have a lot of fun in the comments over there at at judgejohodgman.

It's a fun place to hang out.

Pause vibes.

Positive vibes.

Vibe check.

Yeah, it feels good.

I'm at put.this.on.

If you're tweeting about Judge John Hodgman, use the hashtag JJ Ho.

Love to see what people are thinking about the latest cases.

And check out the the Maximum Fun subreddit, maximumfund.reddit.com.

Jen, John, and I all check in there and post pretty regularly, I would say.

Had some fun talking about the Greyhouse episode

on the Reddit there, maximumfund.reddit.com.

I actually didn't look in on the Greyhouse discussion because I was afraid someone was going to reveal the truth to me.

You know what?

Someone revealed the truth in a separate thread, and in that discussion, there was only a link to that thread that said, only click on this if you want.

Well, now I can go.

Now I feel safe.

That's maximumfund.reddit.com.

And we need your cases.

Maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho or email hodgman at maximumfun.org.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

Hey, it's the super surprise, super secret post-credits sequence.

You came, you stuck around.

You're waiting for the Great Lakes Speech Report for Lake Superior, and I'm not going to give it to you.

No,

you kidding me?

I gave you so much content this week.

You can't ask for a whole Great Lakes speech report, even though I promised it to you.

I'm going to save it.

This is a tease.

I'm going to save it for after the credits next week.

And it's going to be good because it's the last one.

So stick around.

Thank you.

I'm sorry to let you down.

Starting to bait and switch.

I know it's annoying, but

you know, it amuses me.

I'll talk to you next week.

Bye.

MaximumFun.org.

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