Auntie Anne-icus Brief

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Let's get into it.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, anti-anarchists brief.

Mark and Hal host the maximum fun show, We Got This, where they settle small debates.

In 2018, they attempted to decide the best pretzel shape, but came to an impasse.

Hal thinks that Mark was unwilling to properly entertain a debate.

Mark says Hal betrayed the show's core by removing the default pretzel shape from contention.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

A guy like me who goes around the country travels a lot, you see a lot of Zambonis.

And every time I do, I think, there, but for the grace of God, go I.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, will you swear swear the litigants in, please?

Mark, how, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he only eats pretzel sticks?

I do.

Mark, stop standing up.

I do.

It's the chunk, the thick kind that you get like at the Costco.

Yeah, the rods.

Yeah, the rods.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Hal and Mark of the We Got This Podcast.

It's so lovely to see you on this non-visual medium called podcasting.

Mark, thank you for dressing up for the non-visual medium called podcasting.

Well, Your Honor, this is the dressing up was really for you.

I appreciate it.

It's been a long time since I've seen my good friends Hal and Mark of the We Got This Podcast.

Now, for those of you joining us on this maximum fun block party week,

If you're not familiar with the We Got This podcast, let me make you familiar.

Every week, Hal and Mark take a topic that is submitted to them, right?

Would you say?

From listeners, right?

Yes.

What's the best example that you use of a submitted topic?

Our very first episode was, should you put ketchup on a hot dog, followed immediately after by, should you hang your toilet paper over hand or underhand?

So it is the important topics.

And you debate the topics.

One of you takes one position and the other.

And truthfully, you're not.

Not necessarily.

We try to consider ourselves less the two lawyers on either side and more we are the ones deciding.

We try to, and this comes into play in this case, I think, we try to decide completely objectively

as ourselves, neither of us taking sides beforehand.

Like a French judge.

Exactly.

Yes.

We're the French judges of podcasting.

I see.

So, for example,

put ketchup on a hot dog, yay or nay.

How?

Nay.

Mark?

And we are, and nay is the correct answer.

Right, yes.

And why, how?

I'm sorry, I cut you off.

Oh, we're supported by the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council, who states that you can only put ketchup on a hot dog.

I think up to age eight, was it Mark?

Eight or nine?

I believe that the former president of the United States said five, but

eight was the National Hot Dog Council was the cutoff age for putting ketchup on your hot dogs.

And I will point out that the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council is a real thing that has also ruled that a hot dog is not a sandwich.

Yeah.

Which is an important topic of debate here on the Judge John Hodgman Show.

Of course.

Where we invite listeners to call in with disputes they have with each other.

And rather than debate them, I hear both sides with the aid of my very good friend and fake court bailiff, Jesse Thorne.

And then I give my verdict as to who is right and who is wrong.

So, for example, best Halloween candy.

Hal?

Oh, I like Snickers fun size.

Okay, Mark?

I personally like Whoppers.

You're both wrong.

Reese's Peanut Butter Cups is the answer.

This is why we had to come back to you.

Best Halloween candy.

Yes.

Whoppers.

Whoppers are delicious.

Is that real?

I do love a whopper.

I like whoppers a lot.

I'm not against whoppers.

It's just a bold claim for best.

Don't they start to taste like heartburn after a little while?

Like you have first they're good and then it gets into that pocket where it's bad?

Yeah, I just like that they come in a proper milk carton, like an old-timey milk carton of whoppers, so you can pour them on your cereal.

Tootsie roll.

Tootsie roll.

That That is quintessential, Jesse Thorne.

But again, Reese's peanut butter cups, specifically the single pack peanut butter cup that you get at Halloween.

Best Halloween candy.

I do love a Whopper, though, because once you get to that malted milk core, it chews your tongue up.

Just like a Captain Crunch chews up the top of your mouth.

If you had a Whopper and a Captain Crunch at the same time, there would just be a war in your mouth.

It would be a math war, classic math war, which is not yet a maximum fun podcast, but maybe there should be one.

Coming into the middle of the middle.

Now, Judge Hodgman, you offered an obscure cultural reference when you entered the courtroom.

Yes, I did.

Every week, when I enter the courtroom, I offer an obscure cultural reference, usually a quote from a movie or a book or a play or a sage thinker making a reference usually around the topic at hand.

And the topic of hand in this case is pretzels.

Now, I will make the offer to you, Mark and Howell, that I make to every litigant who comes in the courtroom, which is this.

If either of you can guess the source of this cultural reference, you win by summary judgment.

How, do you want to take it?

Do you want to hear it again real quick?

I would love to.

Okay.

A guy like me who goes around the country, travels a lot, you see a lot of Zambonis.

And every time I do, I think, there but for the grace of God go I.

Al, what's your guess?

Could be anything.

I have no idea.

I'm going to take a stab and say, up in the air, which I know is incorrect.

Up in the air is what?

A song?

A Broadway?

It's a George Clooney film.

Oh, yeah.

He plays a man who downsizes people.

And he travels a lot.

He travels a lot.

That was what I keyed into, yes.

Yeah, exactly also known as the prequel to my book medallion status uh mark what is your guess uh i'm going to guess it is from the uh db sweeney film the cutting edge about figure skating no figure skating because a zamboni because of zamboni sure and he was as a hockey player prior to his uh figure skating career he would have done a lot of traveling And if you don't know, listener, a Zamboni, of course, is an ice resurfacer that was named for its inventor, Richard Zamboni, who invented it in 1949.

But this is the part of the podcast where I say, each and every week, all guesses are wrong.

I forgot this morning when I came up with this quote that this was Block Party Week, and so I should probably make this something accessible, something understandable, something parsable, something not weird.

And when I realized it was Block Party Week, I thought about changing it, but I can't because

this quote, a guy like me who goes around the country, travels a lot, you see a lot of Zambonis, and every time I do, I think there, but for the grace of God, go I.

It comes from the dream I had this morning.

Did you say that in your dream or was it said to you?

No, it was said to me.

In my dream, I and Bailiff Jesse Thorne, who in my real life is my friend, got together and we went to a video game arcade on the boardwalk in Ocean City, New Jersey.

We finished recording a podcast and we were just going to the arcade together.

And in the arcade, there was like

an airplane sleeper seat, like a pod that you see in like business class.

It was a promotion

in this arcade for some reason.

They were advertising in your dream?

Yeah, they were advertising.

Virgin Atlantic was promoting the sleeper seat.

And

there was a guy inside the sleeper seat.

who raised up out of it and said these words.

A guy like me goes around the country, travels a lot.

You see a lot of Zambonis.

And every time I do, I think there, but for the grace of God, go I.

And I know for some reason in the dream, I thought this was the funniest joke.

And also the guy who was inside the sleeper seat for some reason was dressed like the Grim Reaper.

He was a sleeper reaper.

There is a lot more to this dream that happened, which I will tell you.

Perhaps after the credits, there might be a secret post-credit sequence that happens sometimes on this podcast.

I'll reveal the rest of the dream, but I had to leave it in there because it is such a pleasant dream, Jesse Thorne, because you and I went to an arcade together in person on the boardwalk in Ocean State, New Jersey.

It's been so long since I've seen you in person.

I'm looking forward to seeing you in person soon, fingers crossed.

I don't know if we can announce it, but at a certain San Franciscan sketch fest in the future.

But more on that later.

Now we get to the case.

Look, I could have given you this one.

This one would have been better.

Here's one.

So this is a legitimate quote about pretzels.

I've been into the habit of freezing white grapes and using them as a snack.

Instead of eating peanuts or popcorn or something like that or pretzels, I just eat the white grapes.

Would either of you have guessed Mike Ditka?

No.

I was going to guess Ina Garten, which is way off from Mike Ditka.

I was going to guess the Sleeper Reaper.

Yeah.

Sounds like the Sleeper Reaper.

The Sleeper Reaper.

But since you both failed in both tests

of the obscure cultural reference, let's go and hear the case.

Who comes to this court seeking justice?

I do, Your Honor.

That would be Mark.

Yes.

We got this with Mark and Hal, Alan Mark,

however it is styled.

Yes.

And what is the nature of your dispute?

The nature of the dispute is, I believe in the episode titled Best Pretzel Shape,

my partner.

Of your podcast.

Of our podcast.

My partner, Hal,

forsook his duty and the stated goal of the podcast, which is to provide objective answers to subjective questions.

I think that this particular episode, his objectivity was clouded by his love of his home city of Philadelphia.

I don't think he gave proper credit to what I believe to be objectively the best pretzel shape, but we really didn't even get a chance to argue whether it was objectively the best pretzel shape because of Hal's deep love of Philadelphia.

Hal disqualified the pretzel shape that you wanted to discuss.

Yes.

And what shape was that?

The default pretzel shape, the one that is used in nearly all advertising for pretzels outside of Philadelphia, the one used in the video game Pac-Man

as

an object that you have to collect.

The classic pretzel shape, the one that is folded monks' hands from the year roughly 600.

Right.

Apocryphal.

Okay,

Mr.

Apocryphal.

That's how piping up all of a sudden.

I'll allow the objection.

Why did you disqualify from contention?

Obviously, one of the most famous pretzel shapes, the pretzel shape?

Well, Your Honor, I think that is a gross mischaracterization of what happened.

Early on, three minutes into the episode, Mark says, it's pretzel shape.

And that is his stance for the entirety of the episode is it's pretzel shape, it's pretzel shape, it's pretzel shape.

This is the best pretzel shape.

That's, yes,

and was not willing to discuss anything else.

I had to coax him into a longer discussion of other shapes.

I knew we were going to have a longer discussion because it was a podcast recording.

All right.

You'll get your chance.

You just wanted to stop the whole thing, right?

Yeah, I didn't want to stop the other side.

Maybe talk about something else for a while.

Tried to end the show right there and then, three minutes in, for all time.

Did you have an appointment?

Did you have an audition, Mark, that you were rushing off to?

I simply wanted Hal to, I felt the burden of proof that it was not the default pretzel shape was on Hal.

And if I may point out,

he sprung this topic on me as a surprise in the moment.

This was one of those occasions where, for our show, sometimes we will do an episode that we have not, specifically have not done any research on, and he will come up with a topic, and I will come up with a topic, and we will lay them on each other.

Wait a minute.

You do research for your

podcast?

We do.

Interesting.

We have a researcher and everything, the delightful Kate McManus.

Producer Jennifer Marmor?

Yes.

Write down research as an idea for this podcast.

Okay.

And remind me to do some.

Okay.

Interesting.

Jennifer?

Yep.

Did you write down research?

Yes.

Can you cross that out?

Okay.

Thanks.

Hey, Jennifer?

Yes.

Before I forget, write down what is research, question mark.

Got it.

Thank you.

All right.

We'll get this sorted out later.

Anyway, Hal.

Yes.

What pretzel shape, what does Philadelphia have to do with this?

You are from there.

Yes.

Mark's contention is that I...

You ever go down to Ocean City, New Jersey?

When you said it, I immediately thought of two things.

One was Wonderland Pier,

and the other is Steel's Fudge.

Fudge.

S-T-E-A-L-S.

S-T-E-E-L-S, the Steel family.

But really, Johnson's Caramel Corn is the main attraction.

You get it fresh.

You have the bucket.

They put it in and they fill the bag as well.

It's a whole thing.

Yeah, it's cool.

So, yes, Ocean City.

We love shore walking the boards.

Yeah.

We go down there.

Go down here.

Have a snack.

Get a hoagie.

Get a hoagie.

Get some chicken and pizza crab fries.

That's a new thing.

New treat.

New treat.

We'll talk about that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And some pretzels, but let's talk about the Philadelphia style pretzel.

This is what you're hung up on.

I'm not.

This is Mark's argument.

I just find it interesting that he says that I'm betraying the essence of the show, which is an objective debate.

And then he just said that his entire premise for the episode was, tell me I'm wrong.

Look, I don't want to relitigate what you guys already went through.

Sure.

I don't want to, you know, what did you end up deciding was the best?

Did you come to a consensus?

Pretzelrod.

Yes, pretzelrod.

It wasn't really a consensus, Your Honor.

It was, and I can, I, I have the transcript in front of me.

I can actually point out the exact moment when Hal, in his own words, out of spite, chose to eliminate the, chose to eliminate the pretzel.

It's so it says.

I'll allow you to read that into the ring.

Thank you.

I said we will take Philadelphia pretzel to the finals and then we will each eliminate one.

At this point, there were three pretzel shapes in the finals.

What were the three?

The three were Philadelphia knot,

rod, and default pretzel shape.

Okay, stop there for a second.

Yes.

Just so our listeners understand what's in contention here.

Pretzel rod, self-explanatory.

Sure.

Pretzel shape pretzel, obviously self-explanatory.

It's right there in the name, explaining itself.

Yes.

Philadelphia knot?

What is that?

It is a figure-eight pretzel, generally cooked side by side.

So it actually looks like two links in a chain link fence.

So you have loops on either side and then a thick knot in the middle.

Created in the early 20th century as a way to create pretzels in a factory setting rather than a bakery setting for the masses.

Thank you very much, Mr.

Research.

Yes.

Hal, this is the beloved soft pretzel of the Philadelphia street food scene.

Yes.

This is a classic Philadelphia style soft pretzel.

And what would you put on top of that?

Cheese whiz and onions?

I will, yes, I will.

What would you put on top of that?

Snapper soup from Bookbinders?

More references, please.

Hal, what would you put on top of that?

Booing Mike Schmidt?

Were you sprinkle a little blood from the Phillies Fanatic on top of of that pretzel.

Is there blood in his veins?

Yeah, green blood.

Yeah.

I top it with Gritty's googly eyes.

And I eat it.

Yeah, there we go.

How much scrapple you put on top of that pretzel?

There isn't enough.

I make a scrapple sandwich.

You can barely taste the pretzel.

All right.

That is the

thing.

So

that obscure cultural reference, the Philadelphia knot.

which, I mean, does it appear in any other major city?

I've never seen it here in New York, which we are known for our street pretzels as well.

Yes.

Those giant, crusty, soft pretzels.

The only place I've ever seen it, Judge Hodgman, is in the icon for a web link.

That is exactly what it looks like.

It's a hyperlink pretzel.

It looks like a chain.

It looks like

two links of a chain.

Got it.

Okay.

And that made it all the way to the finals?

Yes.

Here's why.

Mark decided that our process would be to pick the best best hard pretzel and the best soft pretzel shape and put them up against one another.

Okay.

Well, we decided.

And I even said that my preference was a long braid soft pretzel because it's all not, which is the best part of a soft pretzel is the knot.

It's the knot.

It's the cross-section

of all the pieces.

Yes.

That's where Satan lives and tempts your soul.

Yes, that is where you learn to play blues music.

Yes, exactly.

More references.

Boy, this is a very accessible episode of Judge John Hodgman.

People are like looking up bookbinders in the dictionary right now.

It's a restaurant in Philadelphia.

All right.

So that's a soft pretzel.

Pretzel-shaped pretzel is a hard pretzel or it can be a soft pretzel, right?

Yeah, it's traditionally either one, but in the case of this show, it was in both rounds.

We had talked about the smaller hard pretzel and then talked about the soft pretzel version later on.

Okay, now I understand the three that were in contention.

So one had to be eliminated, correct?

Yes.

All right.

So please read the transcript.

So I said, we will take that to the finals and then we'll each go and eliminate one.

And Hal immediately jumped in with, and I quote, okay, I'll go first, traditional pretzel shape.

Eliminated.

Immediately eliminated.

Yes.

Okay.

And but you each have a right to eliminate one.

If I may, I said.

Immediately after that, I said, we're going with Rod.

So we wound up going with pretzel rod as the the victor.

And I said, we're going with Rod just because of your spite.

And Hal said, and I quote, yes, that's right.

Ah.

It does seem like you're admitting bias there, Hal.

Sure.

But the bias is not for my pretzel shape.

It was against Mark's stance.

When he gets dug in and says, I'm not going to change my mind, then immediately.

Is there a point in the transcript where I said, I'm not going to change my mind?

I think it was in the first three minutes when you just said pretzel shape, pretzel shape, pretzel shape, pretzel shape.

Yeah.

That to me was the moment when Hal sprung this on me and I said, I didn't even know that a Philly knot existed at this point.

Your father's from Glenaldin.

No, in Glenaldin, we always ate regular Philly pretzels.

I mean, we always ate regular pretzel shaped pretzels.

All right.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

I would like to enter something into evidence.

A friend of the court sent in this affidavit that I'd like to read.

When did you do this podcast?

What year was it?

2018.

Yes.

April of 2018, I believe.

All right.

So three years ago.

Here's a letter.

Hearing this should-be-settled, but somehow still-bitter pretzel debate bubble up again and again and again for years in the midst of wholly unrelated episode discussions long after the episode in question was decided, has, let me be honest, placed an undue emotional burden on me.

Frankly, it's exhausting.

Do you know who this letter is from?

Can you guess?

Did you write that, Your Honor?

No.

Who is the most burdened person that you know?

Producer Ken Plume.

Ken Plume is correct is the correct answer.

Your very producer claims hardship from having to listen to you guys fight about this over and over again and claims that it is a matter of spite at this point.

Hmm.

Mark, you claim that Hal eliminated this out of spite.

Hal, you agreed that it was out of spite, but only because Mark was being intractable.

Why do you think this is still a point of contention?

Did you come to the wrong answer, or are you just angry at each other about the way you discussed this?

I

both, Your Honor.

I think I'll let Hal answer first.

All right.

I'm not upset at all.

I actually think it's a hilarious episode.

I think it's really fun.

And I think our episodes fall into one of two categories.

One is a deep dive that is full of information about a topic, a very small topic that we sort of put under the microscope.

The other is the joy of hearing two friends have a back and forth with one another where you feel like you're in the room and you're yelling at your phone.

And that's what this is in perfect amounts.

Well, and of course, if listeners want to check it out, it's available at maximumfund.org.

We got this with Mark and Hal, episode 168, Best Pretzel Shape.

But that's not the question, Hal.

You're still fighting over it.

It is causing Ken Plume hardship.

And listening to him describe how it is exhausting and listening to you guys talk about it now, it is exhausting.

It may have been good in episode 168, but can you justify continuing to fight over it again and again and again three years later?

What is the fight about?

Was it the wrong pretzel shape or

are you mad at each other for your style of fighting?

I am comfortable with the decision.

I think it's a fine choice.

Pretzel rod.

Pretzel rod rod is the decision.

Yes.

And I and I definitely, we talk about why the great things about the pretzel rod in great detail.

That it deserves its name.

There's only one thing about a pretzel rod that is great.

Well,

you can chew on it.

Like everybody does the cigar when you're a kid.

You turn it into a cigar.

All right.

You make it cool.

And it gets

into college.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I still do it now.

And

eventually it gets to the point.

You get chewed.

Look at that.

I'm going to have to share my pretzel.

I did it into grad school.

That's how I defended my my Ph.D.

By waggling your eyebrows and tipping your grouch over pretzel.

Jorge Luis Borges was not a nationalist writer.

I didn't get a PhD.

I have a bachelor's degree in literary theory.

Go ahead, Al.

All right, cigar,

that's a good, yeah, that's a good thing about it.

You get to a point

in that action where it becomes sort of soggy.

And then you just bite it off and you have, essentially, the pretzel rod is made new again.

Right.

Also, if it's a magic wand, you can cast a spell with it.

Okay, I got you.

Sometimes when you bite it, it does that thing where it splinters so that part of it has been cleaved in twain a little bit.

And web shape.

Yeah.

If you're having it

with some ice cream where when I grew up, it was served in ice cream.

It becomes a little spoon.

What is that edifice?

It becomes a little edible.

Is that a filly thing?

I think that's a good thing.

It was at the Garden of Earthly Delights was the name of the place that I went where they did that.

And it sticks in my memory.

But that's specific for any dip.

If you're dipping it in peanut butter or chocolate, whatever you are having with it.

Anything you want to add, Mark, about the pretzel rod?

I disagree that the pretzel rod is the best pretzel shape.

I think that because I think it is unequivocal and objectively pretzel shape is the best pretzel shape.

Okay, but there's a difference between most iconic and recognizable pretzel shape and

okay, because I enjoy a soft pretzel.

I like the variety within a soft pretzel that there are slightly crustier bits on the outside bow than that central triangle and the knot at the north end of that central triangle gives you a little bit of that softness.

I don't, I disagree with Hal in that I don't think it should be

that the best part of the pretzel should encompass the entire pretzel because something cannot be made of just its best parts.

And I like the apocryphal, yes, possibly story of it being

monks with their hands folded in prayer and given to children as treats for behaving.

I like the as a history

of it.

That is the apocryphal does not mean not true.

It just means not right.

Yeah.

But the received wisdom about why a pretzel is shaped that way is that it was made by monks in the Middle Ages, and it's supposed to approximate hands in prayer.

Right.

Yes, that is one of three.

And they were given to kids for good behavior, and the kids would throw them back in the monks' faces and say, Wear the whoppers.

Yeah.

Dumb monks.

Give me a Reese's cup.

Yeah, exactly.

So you submitted some evidence as well, Mark.

And when people submit evidence on the podcast that is photographic in nature, we feature it on the show page at maximumfund.org.

And we post to our Instagram account, which is instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

And you sent in an ad for a pretzel bakery called Julius Sturgis.

Why am I looking at this?

What you are looking at, it's assorted advertisements from the most prominent Pennsylvania-based pretzel companies, each and every one of them using pretzel shape in either their logo, their banner, or their primary advertising on their homepage.

And this is all from the Pennsylvania Dutch country where pretzels made their way first into the United States.

These are the most prominent companies that make them, all of which use the pretzel shape.

But all of this, again, seems to argue definitive or iconic or quintessential.

And I appreciate your argument for best, but why is the Philadelphia soft pretzel not as good?

I mean, it's a different kind of knot, basically, isn't it?

Yes.

Is there a difference of quality?

Is it softer, Hal?

Is it

gives you the same thing?

So the outer edges can be a little harder than the lines.

Is it softer?

Yes or no?

Yes.

Yes.

It's softer, right?

It's softer.

It's not as crusty as

a traditional street soft pretzel, right?

Wouldn't you say that?

That's correct.

It's not as craggy on the outside.

It's soft.

No.

It is soft.

It is a by its, it lives up to its name.

Soft like a a tasty cake, perhaps, right?

Yes.

Wait a minute.

Is that a Philadelphia thing?

I think it's a regional thing.

Yeah.

Like an Amoroso roll.

It's nice.

Yeah, soft.

Soft, soft, exactly.

Soft.

All right.

You won't, I have no objection to the Amoroso roll, Your Honor.

Jesse Thorne, I have a question for you because sometimes I turn to my bailiff, Jesse Thorne, for wisdom.

Yes, sir.

How do you feel about the pretzel rod?

Can we let this stand, the pretzel rod being the best pretzel?

I'll say two things about the pretzel rod.

Yeah.

One is that I grew up idolizing the comedian Norm McDonald.

Sure.

And he had a very famous early stand-up bit in which he told the classic story of getting caught smoking cigarettes and being sent out behind the barn to smoke a whole cigar by his grandfather.

And then he says, and that's when I started smoking cigars.

And

my friend Gene and I, Gene was my co-host on the show that is now my

NPR show Bullseye,

would go to Costco, buy a giant barrel of pretzel rods, and then go around saying, eh, I'm smoking cigars, as a sort of tribute to our comedy hero.

So I have a fondness

for

the pretzel rod because because it reminds me of that memory of time spent with my friend and creative collaborator when I was in college.

That said, it's obviously an absurd choice.

I mean, it's completely ridiculous.

Thank you.

Profoundly inane.

And a choice made under duress, right?

It does seem a little bit suspect.

It seems a little bit like

a win by attrition because you had...

What's the best halloween candy

trail mix it's more nutritious

gives you energy when you're hiking

hal you say that mark was unwilling to even debate the pretzel shape topic how does that make you feel it is frustrating it is very frustrating to try to have a try to go all right well let's just look at everything and if that's the answer that's fine but but the second that he three minutes in goes it's pretzel shape that i a switch is flipped in my mind.

And I go, oh, really?

This is, this is what it's going to be.

You're going to be the guy at the card table holding the piece of paper that says whatever, whatever people have photoshopped on it, prove me wrong.

That arms folded smugness drives me insane.

That is not what our show is.

Arms folded almost like a pretzel, you might say.

Like a pretzel.

Yes.

Exactly.

With his weird screen captures of Pennsylvania Dutch pretzel company advertisements.

Yeah, that is,

if we had, over the course of discussion, come to an argument that that was the best pretzel shape other than anything that

from and the argument was anything other than it's called pretzel shape.

It's on these advertisements.

There wasn't really a strong discussion.

He's done more to argue for pretzel shape here than he wasn't getting.

He wasn't allowing you to get to the answer you wanted, which was the Philadelphia soft pretzel.

Honestly, no.

I'm willing to, I'm willing to fight for it to a certain point, but

I have a track record of relenting when a good argument is made.

And a good argument wasn't made that day because he didn't want to make an argument at all.

He just wanted to make it.

It was a matter of personal taste.

I put before you a New York City soft pretzel in the shape of a pretzel, pretzel shape, we call it, and a Philadelphia soft pretzel.

Hal, which do you choose?

I would choose the Philadelphia soft pretzel.

And why?

I know you love the knot.

I know you love the knot, but how is it better than the other one?

Because it's actually soft.

It's actually soft.

All right.

But you couldn't come to a decision of a best hard pretzel and the best soft pretzel.

You had to have one based on your rules.

Well, the yes, and the decision was hard pretzel was rod and soft pretzel was was soft pretzel shape, the Philadelphia figure eight pretzel.

Oh, so you got it?

Because Mark had automatically

yes, he had said, well, pretzel shape gets an automatic buy to the finals because it's called pretzel shape.

Not for any quality it has.

I was not given the, Your Honor, if I may, I was not given the opportunity to present any argument when

this was sprung on me seconds before we started recording the episode.

It would be akin to saying,

okay, let's do an episode.

Ready?

Go, we're going to do one on best sports mascots named The Fanatic.

Okay, go.

This is what we're going to talk about.

So I, having no prep time, was unable to

really dive into this.

And yes, perhaps it was a knee-jerk reaction to say, well, it's pretzel shape.

The indignance.

Well,

but best is subjective no matter what.

That's the whole point of our show.

You don't need to do research in order to determine best.

We do when we're trying to find an objective answer to a subjective question.

I appreciate that.

But the fact that you have screen captures of ads for pretzels just indicates that that pretzel shape is very common.

If I may, Your Honor, one criteria that we frequently use on the show uh when all other things are equal is cultural impact and ubiquity of uh whatever the topic we're discussing is well but then there's no contest

yes that would be my argument so all other things are equal

excuse me hal excuse me all other things are not equal and not saying all pretzels are the same so which one is going to be the best one no i'm saying that i'm saying that we determined that both the soft pretzels were in a world where both of the soft pretzel shapes are roughly the same quality level we have to look at other factors look you're going around in circles again

you're fighting about this again and again and again and again the exact same ways how didn't give me a chance to do this and mark didn't give me a chance to do this and then i did this and then i did this and i did this i'm ken plume over here exhausted sad

burdened i'm sorry we made this

do you get letters from your listeners saying i hope you keep this up

They do seem to enjoy it.

They do enjoy it.

Still needily at the same time.

I'm sure there are definitely some Philadelphia partisans.

To be perfectly honest, at this point, the only reason we keep adding fuel to this fire, I think, or one of the primary reasons is because it angers our fan base in a delightful way.

Ah,

how, can I ask you something serious?

Sure.

The premise of this show

is that the two of you are going to, through argument,

hash out a question

and come to some answer.

And understood in that is that your friendship will

carry you through the conflict.

Did you feel Mark's unwillingness to

even engage the question

was in a way a betrayal of your obvious friendship?

I don't want to go too inside baseball.

There's only one time I've ever become mad at Mark during the recording of an episode, and that was the, it was for the episode that we were, that we argued last time, which was, which was Christmas movie.

That's the only time I got mad at him because he literally said, I'm not going to change my mind.

You better flip a coin or something.

And that felt like, that's not what this show is.

We're going to figure it out one way or another.

And whatever we come to at the end.

The other sort of implicit agreement we set up is, even if we don't necessarily agree with it, we're going to abide by it.

That's the answer from all time.

I still call the sandwich a hoagie, even though we decided it's sub that if somebody asks me that is what i will tell them because that's what we decided on the episode my feelings about it are irrelevant because we decided it it's it's over so this was definitely frustrating but i don't think it rose to the level of a of a of a betrayal the way the way the other impasse did In other words, yes, it was a betrayal.

Yeah.

I'm trying to protect my friend Mark.

Because you just described all the reasons why it was a betrayal, then concluded concluded with

that's why it wasn't a betrayal.

And not merely, and Mark, don't jump in yet.

I really have to credit Bailiff My Bailiff, Jesse Thorne, because he got it something, you know,

on our show, or our podcast, Judge John Hodgman podcast that you're listening to.

Part of our show is to take these silly disputes and find the emotional core or crux in them.

The real emotional stuff that's going on underneath the smallest of disputes about how to load a dishwasher or whether a hot dog is a sandwich.

And it's not, by the the way, not a sandwich.

In any case, you know,

Jesse Thorne got there.

And I was really feeling it.

Not only did Mark

bully you on the pretzel shape issue here, but he also bullied you into saying that a hoagie was a sub.

I mean, Mark, that's personal.

Your Honor, these are two examples.

And you're like a giant San Diego chicken wandering through Philadelphia, kicking over the statue of William Penn, kicking over Liberty One and Liberty Two.

In the name of objectivity, you bet I would do that.

You kaiju, get out of here, San Diego chicken.

The PSFS building.

Yeah, you can't back over the PFSS.

30th Street Station, featured so prominently in the movie Witness.

But how, we are, we relitigated this Christmas movie dispute as well, right?

On our podcast.

Yes.

What was the name of it again, Jennifer Marmor?

Object the Halls with Bowser Justice.

Object the Halls with Bows of Justice, great title.

And Mark, you would still not be put off your position.

Is that not correct?

Because you are still relitigating this Christmas movie issue.

Hal, you liked a Christmas story, terrible movie.

Mark, you loved It's a Wonderful Life, great movie.

But I failed in

the argument, I realize.

What was it I told you?

You said, Hal did not win this.

You lost this.

You have failed.

I was wrong.

And this decision is because you did poorly.

No, well, that's not true because the Christmas story, as traumatic as it is for me to watch, is actually a movie about Christmas.

Yeah.

That's what I was not.

If I may point out, Your Honor,

the

intractability factor that Hal is talking about goes both ways.

There are frequently episodes where I will simply give in because we've hit 90 minutes.

And I know that.

I'm not rich.

So I don't think, I think it's disingenuous to say that I am more frequently intractable than Hal is.

Well, but Hal,

you are at fault too here, right?

This is sort of like talking about which is the worst pretzel shape.

Because Mark is misshapen in his pretzel logic

because

he won't back off a position.

And Hal, you are misshapen in your pretzel logic because out of spite, you'll just eliminate that position and then you end up with pretzel rod at at the end.

And are you doing your listeners any good at that point?

Are we ever?

Good point.

What would you have me rule, Hal, if I were to rule in your favor?

Thinking in terms of the emotional core of this.

I just want the argument to go away.

I want us to be able to look at this episode and say it is a good, fun episode, and sometimes that's how it shakes out.

And we're not happy with the decision, but we make it anyway.

We move on.

And you laughed while listening to it.

So mission accomplished.

Mark, what would you have me rule?

Are you unwilling to let this topic lie, finally?

I am absolutely willing to let this topic lie, but

I would like an apology from Hal for letting his Philadelphia philia get in the way of our objectivity.

And before you finish writing your letters to Hodgman at maximumfund.org, it may be let this topic lay.

Don't correct me.

Whichever one is correct, that's the one you heard.

So you want me to rule that Hal stop caring about his city of origin?

No, I just that it stop stop coloring our decisions.

All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into Reading Terminal Market now, get a roast pork sandwich from Denix, think this over.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Hal, what's the story with that Ben Franklin Museum where it's Ben Franklin's house, but they didn't have the house, so they just drew the outline of it on the ground.

And then underneath it, there's a bank of telephones that you can use to

call world leaders of the past and get a recorded message from them.

And then also there's a diorama of the Continental Congress

where part of his

audio plays while little lights light up which...

member of the Continental Congress is talking.

I believe what you're referring to is only part of his house still standing.

So you you can tour part of it and the rest of it is like, here's what it would have been.

And yes, the phones were definitely

a parking garage edition.

Yeah, you tour his house and his printing press.

They're right there on Market Street.

How do you feel about your chances in the case?

I'm frightened at the idea that I would have to surrender an essential part of me.

that I bring to everything I do in life and especially the podcast.

It's scary.

I'm hopeful.

Mark, how do you feel?

I think I've made a good case

for objectivity today, and I hope objectivity wins out in our podcast about objectivity.

So maybe the biggest

Philadelphia sports fan in the world and certainly the greatest baseball player in the world is New Jersey native Mike Trout.

Sure.

Mike Trout does not do a lot of endorsements because he's a very boring man.

He seems like a good guy, but he's not exciting in any way.

He does endorse Super Pretzel brand pretzels,

a soft pretzel that's pretzel shaped.

I found a press release.

This is the part of the show we call Jesse Reads from a press release from 2012.

Super pretzel teams up with the supernatural, Mike Trapper.

Great title.

He's been representing Super Pretzel for the last decade as he went from rookie of the year to

one of the greatest baseball players of all time.

Mike Trout says, I grew up eating and enjoying Super Pretzels and I'm excited to now be working with the JJSF team.

That's J ⁇ J Snack Foods.

And Jesse, remind me, where is he from again?

He's from the Philadelphia part of New Jersey.

Thank you.

New Jersey.

That's what I was looking for.

New Jersey is separated into two regions.

The part where they listen to WHYY and the part where they listen to WNYC.

And then farms in the middle.

There's a third.

This is what Gary Schreiber, the president and CEO of JNJ Snack Foods Corp, said.

Mike Trout is a phenomenal athlete and an extraordinary young man.

We believe the combination of Mike representing our super pretzels, soft pretzels, churros, and other related products.

is a rare combination of the best of the best.

And you know what?

They were right.

And so I just wanted to share that and say they were right.

He became the best baseball player in the world, and there's no finer supermarket frozen pretzel than super pretzel.

Not paid for that endorsement, just like super pretzels.

The same reason why Mike Trout still represents super pretzels to this day.

Mark, what shape are super pretzels?

Pretzel shape.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a minute on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

You know, speaking of lack of sponsorship, the Judge John Hodgman podcast occasionally has the pleasure of partnering with different brands of Brooklinens, for example.

That's the sheet company that's named for my hometown, Brookline, with an N at the end.

That's why we like it.

It's also great sheets.

But one brand, there are a couple of brands that I've never, ever been able to tempt to forming a partnership with Judge John Hodgman.

One of them is Moxie, the great licorice and gention-flavored medicinal soda of Maine

that predates Coca-Cola and

is where we get the word Moxie from.

Predates the word Moxie.

The famous beverage punishment of our northeasternmost state.

Ted Williams sponsored Moxie for a long time.

Or Ted Williams was a spokesperson for Moxie for a long time, of Boston, Massachusetts.

The other part of my upbringing was in Massachusetts.

The other brand I've never been able to form a connection with over many, many years, and sometimes we got pretty close in this dance.

Still just out of my grasp is Utz, the greatest snack foods available.

Uts of Hanover, Pennsylvania.

I love their crab chips.

I love their cheese balls.

I love their pretzels.

And guess what?

I didn't even realize how many shapes of pretzels there are just in the Uts category.

You got rods.

You got nuggets.

You got bites.

You got hards.

Gross.

You got honey wheat twists.

Worse.

Yeah.

You got sticks.

Pretzel sticks.

You got your butter twists.

And of course, you got your specials.

Your specials unsalted.

Your specials

original, your specials extra dark, specials.

There are a lot of pretzel shapes.

And I think this is a wonderful point of discussion for you to have on your podcast.

And you did it.

What's more, your friendly truculence with each other is part of the appeal of the podcast because it speaks to the passions even the most mundane things can inspire in people.

either because of what they grew up with in Philadelphia or because because of

history,

culinary history, or other kinds of interesting research that make a thing feel more iconic or quintessential.

And the fact that this pretzel debate focused on what was personal to Hal, the immovable object of what is personal to Hal, versus the irresistible force of what is iconic to Mark, this is where a huge butting of heads occasionally comes in your podcast.

And it is difficult to resolve.

Would I like to order, you both are asking me essentially to order to let it lay or lie, whichever is correct.

So what is there for me to resolve here?

If you're willing to let it go, Hal, and you're willing to let it go, Mark, what will the people of the maximum fun subreddit fight about if I simply let it go?

I don't want to deny, I don't want you guys to ease up on each other.

These are things that are passionate.

And when you have a podcast that offers objective judgments over subjective topics, you know, you're going to tie yourselves into these pretzel knots from time to time.

I would let it go.

I would say, forget it, be friends, put it behind you, if only for Ken Plume.

Except for one thing.

Your solution of letting it go would mean letting the pretzel rod stand as the best pretzel shape.

And that's not true.

That is a fundamental dereliction of duty.

It is known.

Everyone's saying it.

I'm getting letters right now, and this podcast hasn't even come out yet.

Your truculence,

your dispute of regional versus iconic, and your unwillingness to compromise on this has left behind a false king, the pretzel rod, a horrible, dirty scepter of a pretzel

that looks like a long poop, ultimately.

This cannot stand.

And so, as before,

when we got this, don't got this, and a final relitigation must happen, you come to me, your judge, John Hodgman,

and I am prepared to make a final ruling.

And then,

then you will let it go.

The Philadelphia Soft Pretzel is an incredible pretzel.

Perhaps one of the best pretzels there is, both in shape and execution.

It truly is the best regional soft pretzel shape.

The pretzel rod is garbage.

Don't talk to me about a pretzel nug.

Those nugs are the furthest thing from bank.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Because it's too much pretzel.

The ratio of internal pretz to external pretz is wrong, but you know what gets it exactly right?

That internal to exterior ratio of crunch to different kind of crunch or soft to crunch in both hard and soft form.

You see it across all formats of pretzels, pretzel shape.

That's why it's pretzel shape, al.

I get it.

Mark should have sat back.

He should have laid back or lain back or lied back.

Don't write me.

And let the conversation quote unquote happen for a while so you didn't feel railroaded until Mark could finally get around to making the obvious argument.

Pretzel shape, it's iconic and it tastes good.

That's why they're all, That's why they're all shaped this way, except for this weird, amorphous shape that Philadelphia came up with out of necessity.

I love the Philadelphia pretzel, but it's an anomaly.

How?

It's an anomaly.

I'm sorry, you're banned from ever eating it again.

It's okay, I'll take it because there are so many other great pretzel-shaped pretzels.

You'll be back.

And I'll go so far as to say: sponsorship or no, the best pretzel shape is Utz Specials Extra Dark,

Dipped in Onion Dip, the best snack of all time.

I got this one.

Wait, so that was the best pretzel shape?

Best pretzel shape is pretzel shape.

Okay.

The end forever.

The one that you wouldn't allow because of your mutual truculence is the one that is the best pretzel shape.

That is my judgment.

And I will also say, a hoagie is not a sub, it's a hoagie.

Get out of town.

This is the sound of a gravel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Hal, how do you feel about the verdict?

I mean, I'm fine with it.

I would have been fine with Pretzel Schafe if Mark had made any argument close to that during the episode, but I'm now willing to let it go for all time.

And I feel good that I can still bring what makes me uniquely me to every single episode we record.

Mark, how are you feeling?

I'm just glad that Hal and I can finally, after these three years, be friends again.

You know what I think?

What?

I believe the combination of Hal representing Mark Soft Pretzels, Churros, and other related products is a rare combination of the best of the best.

And in conclusion, hey, thanks for coming on the show.

Oh, thanks, Jesse.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In a a moment, we'll dispense Swift Justice.

But first, our thanks to Dan Gualtieri for naming this week's episode Anti-Anarchist Brief.

If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out calls for submissions there.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, and check out the Maximum Funds subreddit to discuss this episode.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Sarah says, I've learned that my husband set calendar reminders for that time of the month, but he denoted it as chocolate week.

Not once has he procured chocolate for me during this time.

I seek damages in the amount of one piece of chocolate for every week he has missed in the four years of our marriage.

It's probably a lot of chocolate.

I suggest a whole milk carton full of whoppers.

But restitution must be made, Sarah's husband.

Give your wife chocolate for chocolate week.

Back taxes.

Do it right.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash jjho or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No cases too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Jesse Thorne.

Jesse Thorne, thanks for sticking around.

You normally don't stick around for my secret special post-credit sequences that I hide.

But I had to stick around when I heard you were going to tell us a dream you had.

I know it's really boring.

to tell people about their dreams, but this is such a weird and pleasant dream.

What happened was we finished recording a podcast just like we did.

And then you said, should we go in the dream, I had a custom new podcast studio under the boardwalk in Ocean City, New Jersey.

Oh, yeah.

That was a nice place for it.

And I said, you want to, let's go to the arcade.

I don't know.

Under the boardwalk.

We'll be taping pods.

Under the boardwalk.

Something, something that robs the pods.

Right.

Yeah.

So after we finished it, Jennifer, you were still on Zoom.

Jennifer, you were still on Zoom, so you couldn't come with us.

But Jesse and I went to the arcade in Ocean City, and in the middle of the arcade was this big, as I described at the top of the episode,

this big, you know,

sleeper seat like you see in a business class section of an airplane, one of those flatbed seats.

It's like a pod.

And inside the pod was an actor dressed as the Grim Reaper who was doing all kinds of bits from inside the pod.

And after he said that thing about Zambonis that I talked to,

he rises up out of it like he's rising

out of a grave.

And he just does this bit.

And I remember I can't do Norm McDonald, but it was clearly in this really offhand Norm McDonald way.

And he's like, you know, and I wrote this down as soon as I woke up.

This was the bit that he did.

Anyway, you know what I am.

I'm the spirit of this airplane seat, the new Economy Plus sleeper seat on Virgin Atlantic.

You read in the papers about how Phil Sickler is setting up the exhibition NBA game in Dublin and he's trying to get people to go.

So Virgin Atlantic says, hey, you buy a ticket to Dublin, you get one of these, and then you sleep in it.

Yeah, I don't know.

I guess it's a pretty good deal.

You don't get dinner or anything, but guess what?

You get to do?

Lie down on a plane.

Okay, make up your own mind about it.

It doesn't matter to me.

And then this Grim Reaper goes

and he goes back down into the seat.

And I watched this happen.

It was so much fun.

And I went out to get you.

I said, Jesse, Jesse, we got to go talk to the guy who did this.

He's so funny.

And Jesse, you were like,

I don't want to go talk to a comedian inside of an airplane seat.

And I said, no, come talk.

And he was getting out.

It was like his shift was over.

And Jesse's like, you don't want to talk to this guy.

This guy, this is just going to be sad.

And I'm like, no, I really like it.

And I went up to him and I said, hey, that was a really funny read you did on that promo for the airline seat.

He goes, oh, thanks.

He said, it was really, you know, I was really, it wasn't my voice, really.

I was doing a kind of Richie Paul Dugan kind of read.

And I said, I don't know who that is.

and Jesse of course you were like oh I know that comedian I know that obscure comedian from a special thing or something

and the guy goes yeah you know him right richie paul dugan you were like yeah he's pretty good and he's like yeah and the thing of it is he was from wisconsin and i came up in milwaukee comedy scene and everyone was always stealing his stuff And the guy got really loud and really aggro.

And I'm like, okay, we need to go.

And the end of the dream was you saying to me, see, I told you we shouldn't have talked to that guy.

And that's the end of the dream.

There's a lot of specific stuff in there about

Phil Sickler, whoever that is, setting up an exhibition NBA game in Dublin that

they couldn't get people to go to it, so they were flying them over on free sleeper seats.

What do you think about that, Jesse?

Richie Paul Dugan?

Richie Paul Dugan was the name of the comedian.

Richie Paul Dugan, the dream version of, I'm going to say Jarrett Grody.

I'm going to go with Jarrett Grody.

I trust you and my dream comedian would know what you were talking about.

Thanks for visiting me in the arcade in Ocean City, though, Jesse.

That was a lot of fun we had together.

Glad to do it.

Thrilled to do it.

That guy was a creep, though, in the dream.

He really was kind of sad.

All right, that's it, everybody.

End of special and credit sequence.

Don't forget the block party.

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