Preliminary Herring

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, preliminary herring.

Karina brings the case against her husband, Ian.

The two of them would like to get a fish tank for their home.

When they agreed on this, Karina had a small tank in mind with one or two fish.

But Ian says he will only accept a 35-gallon tank or more.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Schedule four battle drills, one for each shift.

Run a series of simulated attacks from a Cardassian squadron.

I want you to conduct the exercises personally, Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Get it done.

Oh, and get that fish out of the ready room.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Karina and Ian, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he did not co-write Shark Tale 2?

That was our friend Scott Ackerman.

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Ian and Karina, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered this courtroom?

Karina, let's start with you.

You have a guess?

I have no clue.

You put a Kardashian in in there, so I'm assuming something Star Trek, but that might have been purposeful to throw me off.

And I'm not very Star Trek good.

Which Kardashian is on Star Trek?

Clothes?

Kardashian.

As my friends know, Star Trek is a huge nerd blind spot for me, so I'm sure they're screaming at their devices at the moment.

And I don't know.

I'm going to say it's the one that Jesse always talks about with the whales in San Francisco.

Okay,

that is an original cast movie, so that is an interesting guess.

The only words that I changed in here were I added Bailiff Jesse Thorne instead of Will for Will Riker, who is a next generation cast member.

So that's a hint for you.

He's in the next generation.

He's in all the movies of the next generation cast, and now on all these ads on Twitter that I see for some kind of Star Trek game, they get the whole gang back together.

Oh, geez.

Including Jordi LaForge, Jesse Thorne, our friend LeVar Burton.

Oh, yeah.

My close personal friend who was on the show one time.

That's right.

I talked to him on Skype.

All right, Ian, I've given you a hint.

I am

here.

I wish I could take advantage of the hint, but it doesn't help me in any way.

So, Karina guest Star Trek?

Oh, is it three?

I don't know.

The search response.

Four.

So four.

Guest four, the Voyage home.

house.

That's the only because I know that Jesse talks about the one a lot.

All right, and I'll set for Cisco.

I was going to say.

No, Ian, I already told you it's a next generation cast.

Oh, see, I can't figure out that.

I think I know a couple, but there was First Contact.

I think that was Next Generation.

That's a movie I'm talking about.

Oh, it's the series?

Oh, it's a series.

Star Trek the Next Generation.

I have a guess.

I know about that.

I knew it was a series.

I just didn't know that's what the reference was.

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

John left.

And he's wearing shorts and blue socks.

Well,

in

I knew it wasn't a series.

I just didn't know it was from the series, and I would not be able to guess an episode.

There's no way.

Order in this court.

Let the record show that I, Judge John Hodgman, had to leave the room for a moment to seethe.

John, I have a Star Trek The Next Generation guess.

What is it?

Whoopi Goldberg was on that.

That's true.

That's absolutely true.

That's my guess.

Whoopee Goldberg was on that.

But the guest star in this particular episode was not Whoopi Goldberg, although she may have been in this episode.

She was a series regular.

We forget.

No, I don't forget.

I never forget.

The guest star in this particular episode was Ronnie Cox, famed character actor Ronnie Cox.

Yeah, all dogs love Ronnie Cox.

Yeah.

It's a little bit more.

One moment, please.

Sorry.

Now, Ian has to leave the room, not to seethe, but to quiet his.

If you don't interrupt them, they just ramp each other up.

A husky will do that.

What are their names?

Andy and Boomer.

Andy?

Are they both huskies?

Boomer's a husky.

Andy's a corgi.

Which one is?

That's a funny team.

Yeah.

That's great.

My aunt does Northern Dog Rescue.

Oh, nice.

And she has this

dog sled with wheels on it that she like mushes dogs through this park in Oakland.

That's amazing.

We rescued Boomer from Norse Led Dogs Rescue.

Oh, that's the one that she, that's the one that she does.

We rescued him from there three years ago.

Oh my God,

you probably

adopted your dog from my aunt.

What was her name?

Yeah, what was her name?

Gail.

Yes, absolutely.

I sent her pictures and everything of him all.

All right, order in the court, please.

Unbelievable.

She's very nice.

Unreal.

Everything is well.

Thank you to Aunt Gail for rescuing Huskies and getting who was who was barking then?

Was it Husky or Boomer?

It It was mostly Boomer, the Husky,

a little bit of Andy thrown in.

Andy kind of ramps Boomer up.

So Andy will start, then Boomer will take over the howls.

Because all dogs love Ronnie Cox, and Boomer surely was yelling at both of you.

Yes.

Star Trek Next Generation, Season 6, Episode 10, Chain of Command, Part 1, starring Ronnie Cox as Edward Jellicoe takes command of the Enterprise.

It was a real curveball to STTNG viewers as Captain Picard was summarily dismissed.

And Ronnie Cox, as Captain Edward Jellico, insisted that they get that fish out of the ready room because, of course, Captain Picard had within his ready room a globular aquarium with a single fish in it, an Australian lionfish known around the set as Livingston, named after producer David Livingston.

That's exactly what your dog was saying to you.

Our friends will be very disappointed and dogs.

Yes, we'll have to watch that.

Yes.

We watched a fish called Wanda, just maybe in case there was something that was there.

I was thinking of that one, too.

It reminded me that it's a funny movie.

But I knew, I had a feeling, you guys, I can't, boy, oh boy.

I thought for sure, never mind.

It doesn't matter.

Wait a minute, Karina.

What does your nerdery lead to, if not a passing knowledge of Star Trek?

Some Doctor Who.

We'll see the newer Doctor Who,

Dungeons and Dragons.

CMD.

Yep.

I know all those.

Yeah, I'm more of a Star Wars than a Star Trek.

It's true.

Fair enough.

Fair enough.

All right.

Let's see.

Just never watched it.

Let's not ignite those old battles and instead turn to this new battle.

So, Karina, you come to this court seeking justice.

Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.

What is the nature of your dispute?

So maybe

a little less than a year ago, right in the middle of the pandemic in the summer,

I was home with our two children, five and eight.

That was good names.

I love those names.

Family names.

Luke and Audre.

My children were stuck inside.

And, you know, not, of course, with the pandemic, not able to leave the house, but then with the fires that were going on in Northern California, too, barely able to even leave the house for the air quality

issues.

Sorry.

We were going a bit stir-crazy.

And I thought, what better way to entertain them than to perhaps get a small pet that they can focus some of their energy on, help take care of it.

They help a little bit with the dogs here and there, but I thought, you know, something that's just their own that they can name.

Oh, this is, you already had the Husky in the corner.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Boomer's three and a half, and Andy is 11.

So you wanted to add to your pet portfolio.

Yeah, this is when everyone else was getting dogs and cats.

Well, we already had those.

You were already.

Oh, yeah.

All the shelters were emptied.

And I didn't want a third dog.

Right.

I want something smaller that just the kids can manage, hopefully release, you know, nails.

You went to the dog shelter and you're like, we don't have any dogs, but we do have this.

And they showed you a cage with just a lionfish flopping around on the bottom.

We'll take it.

So you you conceived this dream of getting an aquarium.

Is that correct?

Yes.

So I thought, okay, we can get maybe like two feeder goldfish or two guppies, something easy, peasy.

You know, kids can name them, feed them, something to focus their energy during this trying time.

Right, because fish are much more engaging than dogs, for sure.

Fair.

Well, the other part was, yes, if we've got some kind of small rodent, I would fear that our husky might remedy that with his prey drive.

So something that was contained.

I noticed Bailiff Jesse Thorne nodding assuredly over the teleconference.

Can you hit the table?

This is why my home contains no rodents.

I have two small dogs who are rodent dogs

or were bred to be rodent dogs.

And those rodents that I might bring into my home as pets would not be long for this world.

They'd get at.

They'd get at by the professional rat catchers that are your dogs.

Not unlike that hamster my dad stepped on when I was a kid.

Reference to season one, episode X of Judge John Hodgman Nightmare Gerbal.

Look it up on the Wikipedia Memory Alpha.

That's the Star Trek Wikipedia, by the way.

All right, so you proposed this small investment in a small aquarium with two small boring fish, but Ian.

So to save my children any trauma as Jesse experienced as a child.

Right.

Going to with a fish.

So I thought, okay, maybe one or two, something they can, you know, manage.

Small, perhaps like Captain Picard, a more globular, easy tank.

Right.

And I actually expected Ian to say, no, no, no, no, hang on a second.

That tank is in space.

That's not the original tank.

Sorry.

That's a space tank.

Just so you know.

Yeah.

I'll have to go watch it immediately after this and reference.

I'm going to watch this episode tonight.

For all we know, Karina, it's made of transparent aluminum.

Probably it is.

I don't know.

We'd have to ask the computer.

How would we do that, Jesse?

Hello, computer.

Oh, there's also a deep reference to early Judge John Hodgman.

Yeah.

Okay, so anyway, that was a year ago, and you've been having this dispute ever since.

You have not purchased a tank, have you?

So it was more that I brought it to my husband, expecting him to say, no, no fish, absolutely not.

And I was going to argue, like, oh, but it'll be small, just a couple of fish.

And instead, he did the opposite and said, oh, no, forget fish, I need, in his words, quote, at least 35 gallons.

To which I then balked, saying, no, that's far too big.

And then we just sort of tabled it and said, okay, no fish, not at all.

And then I'm like, well, fish could still be fun.

So I thought that you could adjudicate what would be the correct amount of

gallons and fish, perhaps.

Well, I mean, we're talking about fish here, not scallops.

So definitely more than one gallon.

So not by the pound.

So why did you expect that Ian was going to not want fish?

We've had a bit of a checkered fish ownership pass.

Well, Well,

a checkered fistery.

Yes, a checkered fistery.

A checkered fistery is what I said, Jesse.

Did you hear that?

So what you said, John, it was

⁇ it sounded like to me anyway that you said a checkered fistery.

Yeah, that's what I said.

A checkered fistery.

It sounds like history.

I guess it's a pottery.

Sure.

Wordplay.

Ian,

Karina, it's got the word fish in it.

Yeah, that's what makes it a little bit different.

A little bit of a, it gives a little flavor of the conversation we're having.

Classic with a twist.

Tell me about your checkered fish dirt.

Well, it starts with Karina,

I'm definitely guilty in this area as well.

It doesn't start with me, it's true.

But the first incident of

fish murder.

Yeah, a fish murder.

Sure.

Yes.

In this case, yes.

That's true.

So Karina in college had a 10-gallon tank.

And

in the process of moving it from one location to another when she was moving rooms, didn't

check.

The heater didn't get disturbed.

And so she had in this tank,

I think they're called ghost fish.

They're the little like tetras that are

translucent.

They were no longer translucent a few hours later.

They became quite white and cooked.

Ironic that once they died, they were no longer ghostly.

Yeah, strange.

So

you cooked your ghostfish in college.

I accidentally cooked some ghostfish in college.

So sorry to hear that.

We were all so in the dorms.

We went to UC Santa Cruz,

Jesse, also.

We were only on the street.

Why am I even still in this room?

What was your major, ultimate frisbee or unicycling?

Politics for me.

Computer science for me.

UC Santa Cruz.

I got to go on a college tour soon with a young person who lives in our house.

Should we tour that college, Jesse?

Absolutely.

Oh, it's beautiful.

It's beautiful.

It's a nice college.

Nice college there.

You get to do hikes to class.

Yeah.

And we were at Crown, so we had really really good calves.

All right, good.

I'll add it to the list.

The banana slugs, right?

Isn't that UC Santa Cruz mascot?

The banana slugs?

Do you consider some banana slugs?

Do you consider a terrarium?

Get some banana slugs?

No.

No.

Interesting.

Well, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my verdict.

I'm going to go into the New England Aquarium, one of the finest aquariums of the Northeast, and I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Banana slugs.

I was a resident advisor at Crown, and I had forever a resident that was arguing that he wanted some Madagascar hissing cockroaches.

And I kept saying, no, absolutely.

No.

He's like, but why not?

I was like, because I don't want them in here.

No,

I won't even take it to the higher ups.

One of our listeners who goes by the name Danny the Trash Woman in Pittsburgh has a big tank of hissing, Madagascar hissing cockroaches.

They're very affectionate creatures.

And they will freak out your dogs, I'm sure.

All right, what was the other fish crime, Ian?

You said that there's more than one.

Well, the next one probably probably turns to me I'll let Karina tell that tale but no I want you to come I want you

to talk about Caesar or do you want to talk about no that's kind of what comes next

so the the next one so I after college I had a 50 gallon you did not come here to praise Caesar but to bury him my guess yes

flush him yes not yet

no more like just not take care of him proportionately hey Karina flushed him stand by standby Karina that was a good punch-up on that joke thank you

not come here to praise Caesar but to flush him that's better Thank you.

Good job.

All right, Ian, let's stop beating around the bush.

How'd you kill Caesar?

All right.

So I had a 50-gallon tank after college, which was, it was fun.

I liked it.

It was very manageable.

And I was populating it with a bunch of different variety of fish.

And one of them was a koi.

It was definitely too large for the tank.

Yeah, no.

Whoa, wow.

It was a mistake.

But at the time, I was living at a house that they were renting where there was a koi pond in the backyard.

So we just migrated him to the koi pond.

Your honor.

The koi pond is very questionable.

In my own defense, I just stole a koi from the pond to the house that I was.

I put it in a bucket.

Oh, you did?

I added to the house.

He thinks he added to the koi pond, which, by the way, was not...

Maybe there was fish in it, but it was so overgrown with algae or some other kind of growth.

I couldn't tell if there were any fish inside of it.

Was this koi Caesar or a different fish?

Different fish.

Caesar came later.

Caesar was the last fish.

I don't think it had

a certain amount of time.

There was a lot of fish in that tank.

So you dropped your koi in the pond, never to be seen again.

And moved away, yes.

Yes.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

I was giving him a better life.

Judge Hodgman, there was a bitter controversy about koi during my time at UC Santa Cruz.

Oh, yes.

Oh, I see Jennifer Marmor nodding her head, assuredly, now.

There were no fraternities at UC Santa Cruz other than a couple of non-residential ethnic interest fraternities.

There was an Asian American and an African American fraternity, but they didn't have a house or anything.

And then this MTV show called Frat Life came to campus, and some people created a fraternity for Frat Life.

And as a fraternity prank, they stole some koi from the pond at Jennifer and my residential college, Porter College,

which turned out to be

something like $20,000 worth of koi,

which made it grand larceny, and they went to jail for a year.

Oh my goodness.

Well, this is what makes me,

this is what makes me so curious about this unnamed koi that you dumped in a bucket in the corner of your room or whatever you did Ian, 50 gallons.

Oh, it was it was

a nice koi pond listen i'm talking i'm not an aquarian jim and i over here but i have no experience with this kind of thing but even i know a koi does not belong in a tank in your house belongs in a pond plus they're expensive as f as jesse thorne just pointed out and i would imagine they're they're not easy to source didn't they warn you don't put this koi in a bucket in your house put it in a pond because it's a big fish no i think this was easily purchased from a named big box pet store.

Whoa, this is at a pet store.

I think this was at the one in Sacramento.

Oh, really?

I could have sworn they got it from PetSmart.

That sounds like some unethical fish peddling to me.

Yes, they would often sell fish that were not easily cared for.

So they bought it from a door-to-door koi salesman.

Some man came in a trench code, hey, buddy, want a koi.

Icky Woods from the Cincinnati Bengals knocked on their door and offered them a koi.

They said no.

Then they asked him to do the icky shuffle, and he did, so they bought it.

So then, Ian, you got Caesar, who I presume is probably a giant squid.

A 35-foot-long giant squid that you kept in your bathtub or something.

No, no.

Caesar was in a small three-gallon tank that was actually

an aquaponics tank.

This is part of the evidence that I submitted with the plants on top.

Okay, well, let's take a look at that evidence so I can get a visual reference.

These photos, of course, will be available on the show page at maxmanfund.org, as well as our Instagram account, a really hoppin account managed by Jennifer Marma herself, instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

So this would be,

this is a, what did you call it, a hydroponic aquaponic?

John, you didn't go to UC Santa Cruz.

An aquaponics tank is a tank of water upon which you grow either marijuana or magic mushrooms.

It's a little sketchy in the photo.

Is it this fish tank that's got one lone red fish and a bunch of plants on top?

Yeah, that was just a sort of, yeah, more of a representation of what this setup was like.

Okay, so this is not the, that's not Caesar.

This is not actually Caesar.

No, I think he was blue.

Yeah.

Right.

This is just a photo that you took off of Google without pretty much.

I don't think I have any.

I don't think I ever took a picture of Caesar.

This podcast shut down.

All right.

So tell me about Caesar in his hydroponic tank.

So

the way it works is basically that the...

You ate too many of those magic mushrooms.

He drove a car into a school cafeteria.

No, it had wheatgrass and some other herbs on it.

What happened to the fish, Ian?

We were moving offices at work.

Don't wait for the translation.

What happened to the fish?

He was neglected.

He was neglected and died.

I honestly don't remember.

He brought Caesar home from work and put him in the slightly disused guest room, to which every couple of weeks I would say, have you fed that fish in there?

And he would say, uh, maybe.

Doesn't look good for you, Ian.

I know.

By the way, don't wait for that translation.

Every Judge John Hodgman fan knows is a reference to Star Trek V, The Undiscovered Country.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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All right.

What are we going to do?

Well, so, all right, Karina, you wanted a little fish tank.

Ian, you wanted a super big fish tank.

Ian's

batting average with these, both of your batting average with fish is very, very, very poor.

I'm mostly tempted to rule against both of you just to keep a few fish alive on this planet.

That's fair.

We were afraid of this.

Ian, how big is a 35-gallon fish tank?

A 35-gallon fish tank is about 35 gallons in volume.

It comes out from the wall like about 20 inches and it's about two feet wide.

Well, indeed, Ian, you sent in some evidence as well, which are photos of three different fish tanks in the same environment.

Is this your home?

This is our home.

And did you buy three different fish tanks to take this photo?

Thankfully, no.

Thankfully, this is Photoshop.

This is the handiwork of Photoshop.

It is size accurate.

So you propose to put a fish tank between

the open closet door on the left and the closed closet door with

the shoe bag container storage.

Those are our masks from the pandemic that we have organized.

Oh, that's your mask tree.

That's my mask caddy.

Oh, mask caddy.

I like that very much.

The kids' ones are on the bottom, and then, yeah, progressing in height, our different masks go up.

So here we have a photo of of your rendering your pre your projection of what a 35 gallon tank would look like indeed and you say that this would come out of the wall because we're dead on everyone can go look at these photos we're dead on so we can't really tell the depth of this tank you say it would be about 20 inches into the room

so i will point out too this is this is actually also a hallway from the front door and then it proceeds down the that's a walkway down toward the bedrooms in our house so sticking out two feet, I would say, would be

intrusive.

Well, it's not two feet, Karina.

It's 20 inches.

I understand.

I mean, I think four inches less than that.

I just did the math, you know, four inches, roughly four inches less than.

Karina, what is that relative to three feet?

Is that about 16 inches less?

All right, so 20 inches.

But I want to get this straight, Karina.

You're saying that this is a passageway, an often used passageway, correct?

Yes.

That mask caddy is in a nice place because you can grab one right as you're about to walk.

a short ways to the front door.

And the front door, is that that open door leading to that hallway on the left?

No, you would proceed to the right.

So it'd be more of a T the way that you're looking at the fish tank head-on, you would head to the right, you would T off and then go that way to get out.

Okay, but it's an off-used passageway is what you're trying to say.

Yes, you would have to go around the fish tank in order to enter the rest of it.

20 inches into the room, right?

Okay.

The open door is actually to the backyard.

The open doors, thank you very much.

I appreciate that.

So yeah, laundry that proceeds to the backyard.

Next time, please send in a full floor plan just so I can

consider that.

So that's the 35 gallon.

That's the minimum that you want.

Now we're looking at what's the next one here, the 50 gallon?

50 gallon.

So I included this one actually as an example.

I think this is too much.

You think the 50 gallon is

for reference, just what I consider to be too large for that space.

And how much, how far, how deep is this one?

How far does this come into the room?

It's another four inches.

Wait a minute, hang on.

Two feet.

20

plus four

inches.

Hang on.

Carrie the okay.

Two feet is what I come up with, Jesse.

What do you come up with?

Yeah, it looks like about two feet to me.

Jennifer Marmor.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's two feet.

Two feet.

Wow, okay.

24 inches, two feet.

Who knew?

That's about 12 inches less than three feet.

But it's wider significantly.

I have two things, and listeners can judge when they look at these photos on the Instagram account.

But I'm going to say that this

35-gallon tank is too small for this space.

The 50-gallon tank fills it much more handsomely.

Why do you think it's too much, Ian?

So I think that it would actually, at that point, it starts to disturb the walkway.

And we actually, to give you a greater sense, this is part of a large open floor plan.

So

right next to that is a high table that we sometimes gather around for like entertaining people.

So it would start to invade that space.

Understood.

So this, because the second thing I was going to say is this looks like a terrible place for an aquarium.

I mean, an aquarium is supposed to be like a showpiece, and you've got it shoved over here by the mask caddy in the mudroom.

Honestly, my concern is that you guys coming home will accidentally throw your keys in there.

I think that there probably is a little door on top.

Is that right, Ian?

Usually, yeah.

Okay.

But you couldn't put anything on top of there.

You couldn't put a keyboard or anything.

No.

Isn't there any better place for this to go?

Not really.

What?

This is the place.

Look, I'm looking at you guys right now in your home using the magic of teleconference.

What room is this?

This is what we refer to as the library.

That's become Ian's office in the pandemic work-from-home situation.

I work over there.

Looks like you have a couple of panels behind you for audio.

Yeah, he built these.

We've been recording and not doing anything with the record.

We've been trying to do things with the recordings of with our friend in the pandemic of with queries and making our own podcast.

So he built some sound panels for

okay.

All right.

Great.

You're aspiring podcasters.

All right.

Terrific.

What's behind those panels?

A mirror.

Closet.

Mirrored closet.

What kind of computer do you have right now?

I mean,

obviously it's a Mac, but I mean, can you move the camera around?

Can I get a sense of this space?

Oh, yeah.

So there's my workspace.

Okay.

And

Carina is also on a Mac.

She has a laptop there.

And I have a laptop here.

And a bongo or some kind of...

Look like a tube amp down there.

Was there a tub?

I'm sorry.

We went to UCSC.

So yes, he has a drum that he built.

Because Ian, it seems to me that

if you want a large fish tank, your office would be the place to have it.

Let me just check with Bayley, Jesse Thorne.

Jesse, you're a podcast professional, right?

Yeah, I am.

Having a podcaster.

How would a 35-tank aquarium in your podcast studio affect your recording?

Would that make it sound less professional if there were a lot of bloops, bloops, bloops?

No, it would make it cool.

It's called atmospheric sound.

It would be the sound of a little treasure chest opening and closing.

A lot of people only listen to treasure casts.

So there you go.

It would be a bonus to your podcasting career.

And it wouldn't be right in your foyer.

Why not put it in there, Ian?

It's not trafficked.

I wanted to be out and admired.

Only I come in here when I'm in the world.

Are you afraid it's going to meet the same end as Caesar?

Deceased?

I don't think so, only because I come in here every day.

You just said it's not trafficked.

By me.

No one else.

I think Ian

kind of feels like if you're going to buy sharks, you want to show everyone that you have sharks.

What kind of fish are you going to put in this?

Sharks?

Have you got a 35-gallon.

I think that would be under the same guise of

you don't put quite fish in a

too small of a tank.

I was making it.

But there are bala sharks.

They're small.

Yeah.

Get the big tank and go with the sharks.

What are you going to put in there?

Probably, well, I made a short list of things that we had liked in the past.

Definitely PlayCo.

Things you liked in the past before you killed them?

Not all of them.

Okay.

What kind of fish, Ian?

Stop dancing around.

Play go, balasharks.

What?

What?

You said they're sharks.

They're not really sharks.

They're really fish.

They just look like sharks.

What are they called?

What's they're called?

Bala sharks.

B-A-L-A?

Balashark.

All right.

Oh, yeah.

It says fish.

Okay.

Sharks are a type of deadly fish.

Yeah.

Okay, I got you.

How big is a balashark?

Ooh, it's a very cool looking fish.

They start at around like three inches.

I think they get up to eight or nine.

Okay.

And if you added three inches to the nine, would it be about a foot?

No.

Okay.

Got it.

That's a big, that's a, that could be a big fish, a foot-long, a foot-long ballast shark.

Can that really fit in a 35-gallon tank?

You can do about it.

The rule of thumb is an inch per gallon.

Oh, all right.

So you can have a three-foot-long fish in your 35-gallon tank?

Is that what you're talking about?

Well, no, because three feet would be 36.

Yeah.

So

you would need a 36-gallon tank.

Thank you, John.

Yeah.

Sorry about that.

It's just one more.

One more.

So that's one less than three feet.

All right.

What are the other ones?

Pictus catfish,

some algae eaters, maybe some snails.

Tiger barbs.

What's a tiger barb?

They're just a cool looking fish.

Orange and black stripes.

It's just a phrase you made up.

Oh, yeah, I like a tiger barb.

That looks good.

What are the algae eaters you're talking about?

They mostly suck on the bottom.

Keep rocks clean.

Yeah.

Don't be so derogatory towards them.

I understand what they do.

Are they fish?

Are they crustaceans?

What are they?

They're fish.

Yeah,

they've got a species name.

Name them.

I don't know any more than that.

I had a lot of them.

They list them as algae.

The one that I had in college, I named Hoovie after a Hoover because he would kind of suck up all the algae around.

And what kind of fish was he, Karina?

They just said algae eater at this pet store.

Now, Karina, you must know that precedent is against you on this one in the court of Judge John Odgman.

Specifically, episode 426, Blob Justice.

It was between a husband and a wife, I believe, definitely romantic cohabitants, David and Kaylee.

David wanted a giant jellyfish tank in his den.

I was afraid of that.

I was a little bit afraid by bringing this that you would make us get an even bigger and cooler fish tank.

Well, I'm just wondering why you would come to this particular court knowing my predilection to let David put a huge jellyfish tank in his den once their baby turns four.

Jennifer Mummer, do we know how old that baby is now?

I think this kid is probably around two years old.

Oh, okay, so it was a newborn baby.

It was an infant.

So we're two years out from jellyfish time at David and Kelly's house?

Yeah.

All right, put it on the calendar.

I want to check in with them.

Once that baby turns four, I want to know when it is.

I want to have the update.

Okay.

I want to see a picture.

I want to ask for a photo of the birthday party and the jellyfish tank, and it needs to be time stamped the same day.

They can also hold up a newspaper.

So, Karina, knowing my predilection, why did you, what argument could you make that would change my semi-settled law on this issue?

What is the problem with this fish tank?

A little bit.

I was hoping to appeal to your sense of not making work for other people.

With the two dogs that we currently have, I am sort of the primary taker care of.

I mostly feed them.

If there's a vet visit, I make the vet appointment.

I take them.

We're currently dealing with an ear infection in our corgi that I've already made two follow-up appointments.

He's getting drops in his ear twice a day.

I'm doing all of that.

And I just foresee that this giant fish tank will up being at least partially my responsibility, if not all of my responsibility, to check in with Ian saying, Have you fed the fish?

When's the last time you fed the fish?

Should we change out the water?

And I am

more confident that I can take care of a few gallons with two fish than I can 35 or 50 gallons with many fish.

So your presumption is that even though Ian is champing at the bit, ready to go, no, no, no, no, no, mom, dad, I will walk the dog.

I will walk the puppy even though I'm I'm seven years old.

I promise you, I'll take care of it.

You'll never have to do anything.

You think that he's lying and you will, the work will ultimately fall to you, Karina.

Yes.

That is, yeah.

And Ian, do you have a defense for that?

I do.

So counterintuitively, a larger fish tank is easier to take care of.

I mean, easier specifically for Karina to take care of.

Is that the argument that you're making?

Is that the argument that you're making?

No, if I do this right, I would hope that it actually requires very little maintenance.

i see

what reason do you have to believe that you would do it right technology is advanced

your long history of fish murder

the point you're making though is that a larger fish tank it is easier to keep the various uh metrics that the water requires acidity pH balance uh ammonia levels etc stable for for longer periods of time whereas a smaller tank is more reactive to changes and the fish are more reactive to those changes in the sense that they die quicker if you can't adjust those metrics fast enough.

Is that your argument?

That's part of it.

The other part is actually

smaller tanks.

You said it perfectly.

The other part is the smaller tank gives fish less space to hide and not having a sense of their own space, they end up attacking each other a lot more often, which we've also had happen to lots of fish.

More space to hide.

They have to have their own sense of their own space so they can relax.

Two fish can we can get each a castle.

I'm fine with that.

Two castles

for each fish.

They can hide in there.

I think, Ian, that given that you're talking to a judge who grew up in an abandoned mansion as an only child, you may have hit upon a rich vein of argument.

The mansion was not abandoned.

It was occupied by me and my mommy and daddy, and that's it.

Major music rehearsal room.

And our several eccentric borders as well.

It was a whole show that never happened.

Listen to Dead Pilot Society for Only Child, the live reading of my never-produced pilot about me living in a mansion as a child.

Karina, does Ian's preference for a larger tank seem in line with what you know about him as a person?

Yes.

So when Ian tends to have a predilection for something, like a hobby, he will throw himself fully in and and will research everything and get only the best.

Or only the largest.

Or the largest.

By best, you mean most grandiose.

Yes, usually the most expensive, which is reassuring for him about quality.

Sure.

Are you concerned ultimately that he will buy and construct specialized sound baffling microphones with sound shields, high-quality headphones, and so forth for the fish, but the fish's podcast will never actually come out.

Oh yeah, check, check, and I guess we'll see.

Yeah, because the podcast that you guys have threatened to start has not begun yet.

It has not been, we've not released any episodes.

Correct.

Only to our friends.

Yeah, we've edited some and released some to our friends for testing.

What's the premise of the podcast?

Fish fight?

No, it is titled Hollywood Rolls, R-O-L-L-S.

The premise of it is we take movie and TV characters and we build them into a Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition character that you could play at a tabletop.

So if you wanted to be Liam Neeson and Taken, here is what we build him as, and you can play that in your Dungeons and Dragons game.

And we argue with our friend Matt about what that build looks like.

By build, aren't you just rolling dice?

More like, is he a warlock?

Is he a cleric?

Like, yeah.

All right, all right, all right.

I like this podcast.

So Liam Neeson and Taken, when you transpose him to D and Dungeons and Dragons world, what is he?

What did we make him?

He was a very interesting bugbear.

We've argued for Bugbear about in the past.

We made an ego Montoya.

We basically made a Nigo Montoya puss in boots accidentally.

No,

that tracks, but Liam Neeson and Taken would be what, a kind of a warrior mage?

Did we make him a fight?

That would be multi-class him, didn't we?

I would think fighter rogue.

I think he's a fighter rogue.

I think we made him fight a rogue.

And with a certain set of skills?

Yeah, I think we took the feet special skills.

Because he has a certain special skills.

That sounds like a fun podcast.

What's stopping you guys from releasing that to the world?

Editing's hard.

It takes a while to edit.

We only have a few in the bank and we are afraid of releasing and then not having anything to release.

And have you done audio editing before, Ian, or is this a new hobby for you?

A new hobby.

Right.

So maybe it's not the time to take on a 35-gallon fish tank full of mini sharks.

It's, it's, uh, I'm getting better at it.

At the editing?

Okay.

Now, look, your kids kids do not have a vote in this i was afraid to bring it to them because and again it took us about a year and we were at a stalemate and i didn't want them to kind of get their hopes up well i was just going to say they don't get a vote so you have to approach this delicately but have you have you discussed it with them do they want fish i just briefly again went before i brought it to ian kind of mentioned to the children like hey if we got like a goldfish would you like that and i was met with a bit of indifference but a yes, but not an enthusiastic yes.

Since then, they've asked once for hamsters and I said absolutely no rodents.

Right, right, right, right.

And let me ask you this question: Do either of you want these fish?

I like fish.

I like fish.

I just want a few.

A resounding sorta.

That was a very powerful shrug that I got from both of you.

I mean, maybe there's a reason in the year we haven't actually gotten any.

Karina says she kind of likes fish, and Ian says he really loves researching fish tanks.

so if I were to rule in your favor Corrine obviously the fish tank you have in mind would be what how many gallons maybe two or three

because I've had a 10 gallon tank before I could be persuaded for 10 but 10 still feels big for me maybe two or three with again like two guppies or two you know feeder goldfish something easy something easy to surreptitiously replace when it dies exactly

and so ian obviously if i were to rule in your favor 35 gallons.

35.

I would be willing to consider a 20 gallon tank, but really 35 is the correct size for that space.

You send a photo of a 20 gallon tank, correct?

What it would look like of a composite photo?

Yes.

It looks a little small.

It looks a little dinky in there, for sure.

Okay.

So you would be willing to compromise at 20 gallons, though?

Nothing less than 20.

No, it starts to become hard to maintain.

And there's no chance of just not getting fish at all.

We could.

A picture of fish?

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I will now return to the penguin enclave at the New England Aquarium in Boston, Massachusetts, where I will

huddle with my friends, the penguins, and I'll come up with my verdict.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Karina, how are you feeling about your chances?

Oh, boy.

I don't know.

Bringing up that past precedent really makes me afraid that we're going to end up with a 50-gallon tank somewhere in this house.

I mean, the good news is that you don't have a den, right?

It's true.

Might have to replace our dogs' crates with a giant fish tank.

I'd like to see your husky hooked up to one of those sleds with wheels on it, pulling the fish tank around.

I'm sure he would love that.

Ian, how are you feeling about your chances?

Our sorted past has made me nervous, but

I think that it's the correct choice of size if we're going to get fish.

You know, my now eight-year-old was going through a real tough time about a year ago during the pandemic.

He's a real animal lover.

You know what we got him?

What?

A fish.

You know it's dead?

No.

Is it the fish?

Yeah, R.I.P.

Finney.

Oh, Oh, Finny.

And what kind of tanks did you get?

I don't know.

Fish signs.

I couldn't tell you.

We had water in there the whole nine yards.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about this when we come back in just a second.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So one of the things I learned when I was researching Livingston, the lionfish that lived in the globular orb aquarium in Captain Picard's ready room, is that

that is not a space fish tank.

That's on Earth.

Star Trek is fiction.

It was shot on a studio in Los Angeles.

And Captain Picard is actually portrayed by a professional actor named Patrick Stewart.

And Patrick Stewart hated that fish.

Or I should say hated that fish tank because he loved the fish.

And according to Ronnie Cox, the famous character actor who played Edward Jellico,

one of the reasons why he had his character say, get rid of that fish, it's because Patrick Stewart was always agitating that the fish tank should be taken out of that set because of the ethos of Star Trek the Next Generation.

And across all of the Star Treks, it is inhumane to keep an animal captive.

Star Wars, however, forget it.

Keep any salacious crumb you want chained next to you.

Next to your tepid pool of frogs that you eat while you watch people dance for your pleasure, Star Wars is a harsher universe than Star Trek.

It's because Star Trek is a science fiction franchise and Star Wars is a fantasy franchise.

Come at me, everybody.

I'll just direct you to the episode of We Got This with Mark and Howell, where I and Adam Savage established forever why Star Wars is fantasy and Star Trek is science fiction.

But meanwhile, Patrick Stewart is a nice man who would tell both of you that you're monsters for wanting to keep a fish in a bowl.

No space to hide.

It's true.

There's a reason that we have the term living in a fishbowl because any human can tell simply by glancing at a fishbowl, that is an inhumane.

I mean, let's not even human-center it.

It is a cruel place to keep an animal.

The fish die.

Fish die in fishbowls.

I've had it happen.

It happens.

I know you're not talking about a fishbowl per se, Karina.

But a small fish tank, one or two gallons,

there are downsides to it.

One, the fish have no place to hide, and they are also experiencing great shame and humiliation.

They want to hide, but they can't.

Two, the water is much more reactive to temperature changes and ammonia and pH changes and stuff.

It is a fish-killing machine.

It is, as Ian, having probably done the exact same amount of research on the exact same webpage that I did, 35 seconds on some fish keeping web page.

There is absolutely true that a larger tank is recommended for beginners because it is a more stable environment.

That is to say, you're not going to have the trauma of just watching this fish suffer and die real quick.

R.I.P.

Finney.

R.I.P.

Finney.

And as well, there is the precedent.

from Blob Justice that I want a big jellyfish tank in that guy's house, but not in in his house, in his den.

Because you know what?

He sent me,

you'll find this interesting, Ian.

David sent in evidence, which was a mock-up of what the jellyfish tank would look like in the den.

And you know what it looked like?

What's your guess?

100 gallons.

No, I was going to say it looked good.

Oh, yes, I'm sure it did.

It looked really good and it was huge.

The problem is, Ian, that while I and science agree with you that your fish will be happier, healthier, less prone to death, etc., in a larger tank, 20, 35, 50 gallons,

this does not look inspiring to me, this fish tank next to the mask caddy.

This looks like something shoved into a corner.

It does not look good.

It is a dinky space.

for what is supposed to be an inspiring aquascape, wouldn't you agree?

Now, my only insight into your lives that I've had, or that is to say, your physical domicile, is this photo of the passageway

between the masked caddy and the mudroom where you propose to put the fish tank.

And then, of course, the clutter that is your own office.

I heard that there was some talk about abandoned hobbies in the garage.

I don't even need to go into the garage.

You've got this whole podcast set up for a podcast that you have not yet learned how to make.

And you barely have room for your homemade conga and uh and tube amplifier i don't know what else you've got hidden in the corners there

and then the other aspect of this is when i look here at this passageway i got to remember that this 20 gallon tank that you're willing to settle on

never mind where wherever you would put this two gallon fish tank i don't know where that would go but i have to remember you have

you have two dogs and two small children

set aside the children they can be reasoned with.

But you have a Husky and a Corgi.

A Husky is a big, huge, dumb, clumsy dog.

And a Corgi is a little.

First, John, it's a big, huge, brilliant, clumsy dog.

Are they super smart?

So smart.

Huskies are so smart.

All right, I'll take it back then.

I don't think that the Husky's incredible brilliance nor its body mass is going to be able to keep that corgi from doing what a corgi does, which is messing stuff up and knocking that thing over.

And getting ear infections.

Two of the favorite corgi hobbies.

I came here to mess stuff up and get ear infections, and I get drops twice a day.

This 20-gallon tank in particular looks like

it's going to fall over if I look at it too hard.

The 35-gallon tank, not much better.

The 50-gallon tank, which is like, now we're talking about an aquarium here.

Now we're talking about a, like, I I can see the fish in this photo.

You know what I mean?

And they've got places to hide.

But coming out two feet into the room is going to, it's just intrusive and bad.

And finally, your kids don't even want this thing.

You've had a year without it.

I don't even know why you're still thinking about this.

You've got two kids and a corgi and a husky on your hands.

Pandemic is not over yet.

You still got a lot to do.

You're still going to be stuck together.

This fish tank is going to be a big deal hobby.

And Ian, you have a history of starting hobbies and kind of letting them go, right, Karina?

More, yeah, more than, yeah,

the

large amount of brewing equipment in our garage and the amount of beer that he brews currently, I think, is a testament to that.

I didn't even know that he was a home brewer.

I mean, you knew that he listens to Judge John Hodgman.

I would say that

this fish tank cannot go.

I would suggest that you not do this.

I don't think there's any reason to.

You want to have some fun in your house?

Give everyone a good time?

Get a kitten.

That kitten and those dogs are going to have the greatest time together.

It's going to be hilarious.

And guess what kids like?

Kittens.

I don't like fish.

They don't want any.

You can't tell me they want to.

A tiger barb.

They don't want to cuddle with a tiger barb.

That said, Ian, if this has now become your passion, if this has become your guiding principle, the way getting a jellyfish tank was for David,

I will allow you to get a fish tank of any size you like so long as it will fit into your little room.

You may have to get rid of that conga.

You may have to move that tube amplifier.

You're going to have to find.

You're going to have to move the glass blowing setup,

the unicycles, the ultimate frisbee stuff the disc golf equipment yeah it's not just the unicycles it's the it's the hydraulic unicycle lift that you need in order to do repairs on the unicycle on the undercarriage

you can find reasonable room for a fish tank of the size that you like to have your hobby in your own room that's what it's for that's what your room is for it's not what your hallway is for and so i order that you may get a fish tank of the size you like,

but I order you may not get a little teeny tiny tiny fish tank, A, because I don't think it's really nice for the fish, and B, because who cares?

Why bother?

You want to traumatize your children as they watch fish die?

That's what that's for.

I've been through it.

R.I.P.

Finney.

R.I.P.

Finney.

This is the sound of a gabble.

There's always a bigger fish.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Ian, you've been put on blast here.

How are you feeling?

I will have to consider the arrangement of my room.

Have you thought about flooding it, like that woman who fell in love with the dolphin?

No.

I'm not familiar with that story, Jesse Thorne.

This lady lived in a flooded apartment with a dolphin.

She and the dolphin fell in love.

Where did this happen?

On Radiolab.

Oh, okay.

Fair enough.

You might have to replace the bar that's currently to my right.

Yeah.

Well, I don't know.

Maybe the dolphin's a bit of a lush.

Hard to say.

Wait a minute, you have a bar in there?

I know I'm not supposed to be here, but show me the bar.

It's his whiskey shelves.

It's just the whiskey shelves.

Oh, my God.

Homebrewer whiskey shelf.

He's not alone.

Judge John Hodgman, listener, has whiskey shelf.

Yeah, put the fish tank right where all your glassware is.

That looks good.

That's an amazing idea to have a fish tank next to your bar it's going to be atmospheric like jesse said i ruled in your favor ian why do you feel beat up on you should be really no no no i just have to figure out the spacing it it it can be done you really do it's a mess in there get it together clean up

clean it up karina you're shaking your head ruefully how are you feeling about this situation I'm scared what he's going to do to this room and to the rest of the house to make room in this room for whatever his mechanism is.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Karina, listen, anything that is in in this room that has to be moved out for a fish tank is going to go straight to the curb.

That is not being redistributed.

All of Ian's world, all of Ian's hobbies and worlds have to be in this room.

And if he wants to make room for a fish tank, he can.

But if he can't make room for a fish tank, that's on him.

But you cannot move that homemade conga into the bathtub or whatever.

That's not how it works.

I'm sorry if that wasn't clear to you.

Then I feel a little bit.

But if it's things that she wants.

She doesn't want any of that garbage.

Come on, Ian.

It's your whiskey shelf.

I don't drink any of that.

That's fair.

There's things of hers in here.

Wait a minute.

Is this a shared office?

This only became an office two months ago.

What was it before then?

It's where books and games and whiskey lives.

And wine fridge.

And wine fridge.

Yeah, this is exactly where an aquarium should be.

But you cannot get rid of any of Karina's stuff.

All your stuff has got to go.

You've got got to make room in your life and your heart for all these tiger barbs and thallus sharks or whatever they are.

Keep them alive this time.

Well, Ian, Karina,

I wish you luck on this journey.

Thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Remember, you don't have to do it.

You don't have to do it at all.

You've got lots of animals.

Get a kitten.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We'll have swift justice in just a moment.

First, our thanks to Nicole DeBow, or possibly DeBow, for naming this week's episode Preliminary Herring.

If you want to name a future episode, go to Facebook and search for Judge John Hodgman and like it.

That's where we ask for submissions.

Our producer is the great Jennifer Marmer, UC Santa Cruz graduate, and our editor is Valerie Moffat.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your JudgeJohn Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, and check out the Maximum Fund subreddit.

That's at maximumfund.reddit.com if you want to chat about this episode.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman, your home, for realistic renderings.

of foyer fish tanks.

Relatively realistic.

Reasonably.

I mean, they're about as realistic as like when you buy a hammock chair on Amazon

and it's just a stock photograph of a man drinking coffee.

And then next to him is a, you know, the outline of a hammock chair.

I feel this is the second or second week in a row that you've mentioned this hammock chair.

Why do you want a hammock chair so bad?

I have a hammock chair.

I just haven't put it up.

I can't figure out.

I'm waiting for my wife's permission to pick a place to put it up.

I'm excited about this hammock chair.

Swift justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Rob says, by mass, I am roughly twice the size of my wife.

I believe this entitles me to two-thirds of the bed.

My wife is bad at math.

No, she's fine at math.

You just don't appreciate that a large portion of your incredible mass is your fat head, Rob.

Yeah.

You share a bed equally.

You sleep in the hammock chair tonight.

Judge Hodgman, if any of our Judge Sean Hodgman listeners live in California, especially Northern California, and they're looking to adopt a northern breed dog, like a Husky or a Malamute, they should contact Norseled and ask for my Aunt Gail.

Nor Sled, you say?

Spell it for me.

N-O-R-S-L-E-D.

Sled dogs.

Nor sled.org.

I'm there now.

Look at these piercing blue eyes of this beautiful Husky.

Gail's going to hook you up.

My aunt Gail is going to hook you up over there at Norse Led.

Ask for Gail Dorita.

She'll set it up for you.

These are amazing creatures, but be sure that you're willing to walk it 75 miles a day.

Look at these incredible dogs.

Aura, Bo, Bennett, Big Maya, Blanche, Louise, Blossom, Cascade, Celica.

Pooh, a dog named Celica.

There we go.

I already have a dog named Previa, so

I already have one named Mitsubishi Delica.

My hamster Tercel will be glad to meet Celica.

All right.

Check out Norrisled.org, and we'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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