The Motion is Cary Granted

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
This week, the motion is carry granted. Film fanatic Rick files suit against his wife, Nikki.

Rick saves his golden age film viewing for his own time, because Nikki is usually not interested. Together, the two of them tend to watch TV shows.

But Rick was shocked one day to find Nikki watching the 1963 film Charade without him and asked that she save that movie for him. She doesn't think she should have to stop watching it.
Who's right?

Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

The guy who's talking has got a heavy English accent. He could be a fruitcake.
Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Rick Nikki, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God, or whatever. Totally.
Absolutely.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his preferred Kerry Grant romantic romp is To Catch a Thief?

Yeah. Yes.
Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Nick and Ricky, Ricky or Nick, whatever your names are.

Very adorably similar names. Rick and Nikki, right? Yeah.

Okay. You may be seated.

Oh, I do love to catch a thief. I've not seen that one in a long time.
Yeah, it's a great movie. That movie really rules.
Yeah. Carrie Grant is in a cat suit.
These little gloves.

That little boat kneck knit with the black and white horizontal stripes. Looking good.
Carrie Grant was in a lot of great movies, including Charade. Yeah, great movie star.

But I'll tell you something. I was not quoting the movie Charade, which is to some degree the subject of this dispute.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either you, Rick, okay, I'm going to get it, or you, Nikki, did I get it right? Rick and Nikki, Rick and Nikki.

Yes, Nick, Nikki, Rick and Nikki, Rick and Nikki, Toffy, okay, can either of you guess what the cultural reference is? How about we start with you, Rick?

Uh, I'm really just gonna take a shot in the dark and go. Uh, nope, that's uh, that's not the right movie.
Sorry, I was gonna say,

do a shot in the dark starring Peter Sellers is

the second Pink Panther movie before they figured out to call it the Pink Panther to confuse everybody. Yeah, put Put that in the guess book.
What was your other guess would you guess?

If not, a shot in the dark. That's not a shot in the dark.

If not.

I'm giving you two guesses. And Nikki, I'm going to give you two guesses too.
Okay. I'm just going to guess.
One guess is for Rick, one is for Nick. One is for Nikki and one is for Ricky.

The key here is that we expand this portion of the show as much as possible. This is what people listen for.
This is the show. This is the show.

Okay, so I will guess David Lean's brief encounter. David Lean's brief encounter.
Is that how it was built? Like, sure.

Like a David Lean joint? David Leans.

I think

from the producers of the Wedding Crashers? Yeah, weird. That was such a strange.
It's part of that same universe. Isn't that strange? Yeah.
Yeah.

So, like, Lee Daniels, the butler, David Lean's brief encounter. Okay, that's two guesses for Nick Rick.
Ricky Nikki, you get two.

I have none, unless you want to throw in

biodome.

Biodome, okay.

Yeah. Star.
Legendary tenacious D vehicle.

And pick another one. Yeah, I really don't have any guests.
I'm sorry. And Cino Mann? Yes.

In the Army now.

And of course,

we can't settle this until we give Joel Mann here at WERU in Orland, Maine, 89.9 on your frequency modulation dial here in the solar powered studios at WERU across the glass from me.

Joel Mann, can you guess what movie that quote was from? The Terminator 3. Terminator 3, T3? T3.
All right. All guesses are wrong.
Why did you even.

Why that?

Everything's confusing. Joel is always throwing me curveballs through that glass.
You know what I mean? Curveballs. This guy's throwing knucklers.
Yeah. Okay.

So anyway, this is very, like, what, where is that coming from, Joel?

Well, I thought the quote was from the great British baking show, but then you said it was a movie. So.
Okay. This guy on the other end.
Terminator 3 is. Terminator 3s.

That's the only movie that you can think. Okay.
That's the movie you know? All right, fine. Of all the Terminator.

This is really, you know, the problem with this guy, Joel Ricky Nikki, he's a jazz guy. You know, you dropped a weird jazz bit on me.
You went in a different direction than I was expecting.

Whoa, boom.

Like Kevin Eubanks. Boom.
All All right.

Taking a Pelum 123 is the movie.

And why? Who is the actor who says that? The guy on the other end, the guy who's calling in, has a British accent. He may be a fruitcake.
Come on, Rick. That has to be Walter Mathow.

Walter Mathow, of course. Is that the connection to Charade? Yes, because Walter Mathow's in it.
But also, both movies were written by Peter Stone. L.A.

Kayla and I were going to cover Taking a Pell in 123, and we might do it in the future at some point or another. But meanwhile, we're here to hear your dispute.

Rick, you've already sought justice from this court once, and we heard it on the docket, correct? That's right. State the nature of your case.
Okay.

Should I just walk you through the day of the transgression?

No. Say a sentence.
What's your alibi, Rick?

Who were you who can corroborate your story? Oh, all right. Yeah, I'll allow it.
Let's go back to the scene of the crime.

Okay, so open on Rick, eyes opening in the bed, bed, looking at ceiling fan. It was just a normal day.
It's another hot one here in Harlem, New York City. Plays on the clock radio.

We see his hand slap the snooze button. So

I'm working overtime on a Saturday afternoon,

and I hear her play something off of Netflix, and it sounds old. So I'm like, that's unusual.
That typically doesn't happen with her. And so I go out there and I'm like, well, what are you watching?

And she's like, well, this is charade. I thought you, you know, and I'm just, I pretty much just lose my mind right there.
Cause

typically, you know, when we're watching stuff together, that's not anything that would ever, you know, come up. It's not a part of our usual repertoire of things that we watch.

And so I was like, well, can you at least save that for me or something? Smash cuts to record scratch. Rick looks to camera.
You're probably wondering what I'm talking about.

Cut to John Hodgman explaining. Rick likes to watch old movies, right, Rick? Yeah.
Nikki doesn't care. She loves Encino Man and Biodome pretty much exclusively.

They're the two movies she knows until today when she learned about a third one, Terminator 3. In the Army now.

That one as well.

Rick wakes up having worked over time. and hears the dulcet tones of Carrie Grant and Audrey Hepburn in Stanley Donan's Charade, often called the best Hitchcock movie Hitchcock Never Made,

runs into the room and says, you have betrayed me, Ricky Nikki, my life partner and cohabitator. That is the nature of your relationship.
Are you married? Yes. Oh, fantastic.

And where do you live, in fact?

We live near Indianapolis, Indiana. Circle City.
Yeah. Snaptown.

It's a small offshoot town called Fortville, but we pretty much much just tell people we're in Indianapolis because people have heard of that one.

Where do you live relative to the fort?

I would say about a half hour east of Indy, basically. Where's the fort, Rick? Where's the fort?

I don't care where you live relative to Indianapolis.

I want to know where you live relative to the fort there in Fortville. You know, I haven't actually seen the actual fort.

I'm north of Indianapolis. You've never seen the fort.
You live in Fortville and you've never visited the fort? What is the fort? Why don't I know what the fort is?

It's the fort that gave its name to Fortville. Nikki, what is the fort? It's not named after Frank Fort.

Zachariah T. Fort.
We have a giant pink elephant in front of a liquor store and he's got a martini and hipster glasses. I want to talk about why won't someone tell me what the fort is?

It's like a military military base, an old-time military with a fence, but then there's also other stuff that goes on inside. Like if you were a trapper, that's where you would go to sell your hides.

Why are you all doing this to me? Just talking forts.

Oh, okay. I'm sorry.
I was going by its original name, Walpole. Apparently, it was laid out and platted in 1849 as Walpole, named for the wall that had a pole in it.

We had no idea.

we've been here like seven or seven years or so and

i don't i don't know what brought us here other than prices cheap housing cheap housing yeah and now the prices are going up so yeah you're gonna make a run out of fortville i would love to the walls of the fort protect you from raiders

half an hour east of indy is the name of your movie that you're in

so the complaint is watching old movies is your thing rick Basically. You self-described as a film fanatic when you wrote in.
We heard your case on the docket. Do you remember what my ruling was then?

Provisionally in favor of me. Good.
Thank you for remembering because I didn't. And why? And can you remember why I invited you to be on the podcast live?

I can only imagine because it was not enough justice in my favor at the time and I needed more. No, I was actually hoping you could help me remember.
Oh.

I think it was because I didn't understand how you, you being a film fanatic, had not already seen Charade a million times. So why should it matter to you that Nikki is watching Charade?

Wouldn't you be happy as a film fanatic that Nikki is now starting to take interest in old-timey Turner classic movieville that you want to live in?

I love that. I just wish I could be a part of it.
Had you seen Charade when you caught Nikki watching it without you? I had not. Whoa.

Wow. Whoa.
Sorry, I thought you said you were a film fanatic. Me too.
I thought you were. I have gaps.

I can't see everything.

What are your other big gaps? What are some of the ones that would make us go, whoa? Terminator 3, you see that one? Okay, this is, this is a pretty...

I've never seen Raging Bull. Whoa.

I've never seen

Gone with the Wind. Good time.
Battleship Potempkin. Have you seen Battleship Pemporkinkinkinkink? I've seen Battleship Potempkin, yes.
He's seen, he's fine. He's seen Battleship Potempkin.

There, that's my card right there.

I've seen Battleship Potempkin. Have you seen Das Boot? Yes.

So he's great. He's solid gold.
Have you seen Master and Commander, The Other Side of the World? I have not.

Okay, then you're out. You're no longer a film fanatic.

I should say the early to mid-2000s is a blurry moment for me because

I was porn in college and didn't get to see a lot. What did you study in college, if not film?

That is what I studied. So you must have seen quite a few at the time.
Yeah, you know, there's a handful of there that I've only seen because I saw it in class. Right.
Yeah.

It is kind of insulting that you can get a film degree without having seen Master and Commander, the other side of the world, but that's not what this case is about. No.
Just going to leave it aside.

So, okay, look, we all have our blind spots and so forth. I have not seen Battleship Potempkin.
Look, I know the baby carriage goes down the stairs. Who cares? I get it.
Done. Dunsville.
But

you stole that right out of my mouth.

Rick. You got me.
And how else does your film fanaticism express itself? It says here you host movie nights with friends. Yeah, yeah.

Every so often we all get together and

usually I'll do some sort of double feature and usually

the theme of the double feature is the two movies make absolutely no sense together.

So for example, one night would be, we'll watch Close Encounters and then after that we'll watch No Country for Old Men.

Absolutely no connective tissue between the two, just good movies.

Yeah, or like you would watch Master and Commander, and then you would watch a movie that doesn't totally rule.

A non-ruling movie. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Close Encounters and No Country for Old Men. Yes.

Doesn't Javier Bardem make a big mashed potato sculpture in No Country for Old Men?

Maybe in the deleted scene, but not to my knowledge. All right.
And do you show, do you have PowerPoints? I do.

If it's a movie I'm particularly passionate about,

I'll do a little

half-hour lecture and PowerPoint. I'm sorry, half an hour?

Forgive me. I thought I heard you say a half-hour presentation.

Estimating? Yeah, yeah.

Not even at Elliot Kalen's birthday party have I had to endure a half hour pre-film presentation.

What would be your top deck that you presented to your friends? Your favorite PowerPoint? Like, what are you trying to, are you trying to show how these movies don't have any connection? Oh,

I'll be specific to the movie and I'll just pick something out of the movie that I really kind of like. Like

if it's a John Williams score, I'll talk about John Williams.

Or if it's a director I really like, like David Fincher or Andre Tarkovsky, Tarkovsky I'll talk about like them specifically you know kind of whatever I feel like I know the most about he gives really cute nicknames too like he calls Spielberg Spee

I mean that's that's a pretty first draft nickname

what was uh Christopher Knowles is Chrissy Knowles and

these are basically like when baseball players have that players weekend where they get to put their nickname on the back of their jersey and everyone whose name is Smith they just have Smithy on there.

You really, I go

A to C with these nicknames, please. Steven Spielberg is Speely.
Christopher Nolan is Chrissy.

Lee Childs is Lee. Chrissy Teigen is Chris.

You know how, like, when a celebrity will go on a talk show and they'll give an interview and, you know, they'll talk about other celebrities, but they'll always have those really chummy nicknames like, oh, me and my friend Bobby De Niro.

And so I just, I always try to. Robert De Niro is Robert E.
De Niro.

I just try to come up with my own. I love it.
Nikki, did he give you your nickname?

He calls me his little knickknack. Oh.
Oh, that's very sweet. On my phone that way.
That's the top nickname I've heard so far. Nikki, do you have to attend these parties and their attendant lectures?

No, I typically go to my living room, drink, and watch murder mysteries. It's all about the murder.
That's fantastic. It's all about the murder.

Murder mystery television shows like a Foils War or murder mystery movies like The Mirror Cracked? Like a dateline. Oh, Keith Morrison.
Oh, love Keith Morrison. Okay, I got you.
Nonfiction television.

Guided nonfiction, shall we say. All right.
And you said my living room. Do you guys each have your own living room? Because that moving to Fortville, if that's the case.

No.

Fortville houses are not that big despite its reputation. Where does the PowerPoint presentation go down that you escape from by going to to the living room, Nikki? Sometimes it's in our garage.

Other times it's outside because he has his own projector and projector screen. And so when it's really nice outside, he'll take it outside.
Does he have his own podium? He should.

I want one now.

Let's take a quick recess. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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So Nikki, what moved you that day to watch Charade all of a sudden? You seem comfortable in your tastes. Would you say that your tastes are not Rick's?

There's like a lot of things that we both like collectively together, but I have kind of a stressful job and I really like to laugh and to kind of, that's how I like to unwind.

So usually it's 80s and 90s comedies is usually my go-to. Right.

And, you know, early 2000s, like bedazzled, like, I love that movie so much. That's a blind spot for me right there.
Oh, it's so good. You have to watch it.
Brendan Frazier. You have to.
Oh, right.

That's with, what's her name? Elizabeth Hurley. Yeah.
Oh, never saw it. Never saw it.
Also in Encino Man, right? Brendan Frasier? Mm-hmm. Right.
You're Brendan Frazier. And Rick is Audrey Hepburn.

That's a get-together.

So what drove me to watch it was,

you know, we were, I was, I felt like I was running out of stuff to watch. And, you know, with COVID and everything.

And I had watched something and I wish I could remember what it was, but it definitely had. Blooney Tunes back in action, starring Brendan Fraser.
Yeah.

I was, I had watched something about

that time.

in movies and I just ended up having this general interest. So i went ahead and i thought well rick doesn't like audrey hepburn so i will watch

i will watch charade and i'll get bonus points because i watched an older movie you don't like little heppy rick that is a gross lie i don't recall ever saying this oh all right hang on i'll let i'll let nikki explain

You seem pretty convinced that Rick doesn't like Lil Hepi. How come? Well,

because he told me. He told me like when we were in college.
Remember, you're older. It was shortly after we got married.
I mean, and he didn't like Julia Roberts either. And he changed his mind.

He said, oh, I like her now.

But I never heard anything like, oh, I like Audrey Hepburn now. So I decided to get bonus points by watching an older movie.
And he wouldn't mind.

All right. Let's flash back.
Where did you guys go to college? We went to Ball State University in Muncie. Ball State.
Okay, flashback. Ball State University, Muncie, the past.

Nikki and Rick meet cute on the quad. Go back in time, Nikki,

and give us the dialogue where Rick said, I don't like Audrey Hepburn. What was it he said exactly, if you can remember, as best you can remember?

I don't remember, except I don't like Audrey Hepburn that much. Was this the first thing he ever said to you? Is this when you met? Is there a context to the conversation?

I don't remember.

I don't remember. It was so long ago, but

I wish i could remember it a little easier than the julia roberts thing because i remember wanting to watch pretty woman and

he was like yeah i don't really like julia roberts i can cooperate the julia roberts thing but the audrey huppard thing i have no recollection but you haven't seen charade what's your memory of that pivotal date in the past you ever see a movie called rashomon yeah right i haven't that's what's happening here that didn't stop me from making a million rash omon jokes over the course of my career as a mid-tier comedy legend.

John, you know what happened when they had that conversation back at Ball State? No, what happened? Rick said,

What about Breakfast at Tiffany's? And she said, Well, I think I remember the film. And as I recall, I think we both kind of liked it.

And Rick said, Well, that's the one thing we've got.

Right. But Rick also said,

There's one thing that ruins Breakfast at Tiffany's, one performance in particular that

that makes it offensive and dated

and awful.

And that performance is Audrey Hepburn. Yeah.

Because Audrey Hepburn. Because she looks cool when she's smoking.
Because she looks cool when she's smoking. Rick, Audrey Hepburn had a pet deer.
Did you know that? A pet fawn. I did not know that.

And she'd ride around on it. Because she is so tiny because she was starved as a child due to

malnutrition during wartime. Oh, wow.
Yeah. I didn't even, I didn't even know you could ride a deer.
She didn't ride it around, but she did have one.

I was just making a point that Audrey Hepburn is very wee. You know what I mean? Yeah.
She was very, very wee. Nothing rides like a deer, Rick.

What do you not like about Audrey Hepburn? And is that why you never saw Charade?

Like I said, I don't recall not liking Audrey Hepburn, but I mean, I don't disbelieve that I said that necessarily, but um it definitely seems like something a guy majoring in film in college would say that's why as motivated by the fact that uh girls like Audrey Hepburn yeah, and I think that's kind of the only rationale I can see that she had by doing that, because when when she gave up on charade and I went back to

my overtime, she put on another movie and again it sounded old. So I'm like, okay, what is this now? This also sounds old.
And she's like, this is Roman Holiday with, again, with Audrey Hepburn.

So I'm just like, I've not seen this either.

What are you doing to me? Why can't Nikki just watch her Audrey Hepburn movies?

Because I'm not there.

How does it make you feel

when Nikki gets in on a little, a little old-timey movie watching?

I just wish it would. I mean, if she did it with, I just, I feel like there's something going on.
Like, like she's doing this on purpose to just charge me up. And obviously it's working.

I think she's trying to get back at you for all the times when the two of you were 19 and you said she had to see Fight Club.

I mean, looking back on it, I definitely. showed her some movies that were not her favorites.

Ooh, yeah, like the one, the um,

experiment, but it was like the German version. Yeah, yeah.
And it gave me nightmares. And I won't listen to the Beach Boys anymore.
The experiment, but the German version.

It's kind of loosely based on that Stanford experiment where people were prisoners and guards. And it's a heavy movie.
It was good, but it made me cry. It's heavy.

You're like, date night, honey. Let's watch audition.
I got the pop card.

how would you describe rick's taste in movies nikki

um

he likes almost everything and he's not too snobby about it

i was back then but now yeah you were back then a little bit but not so much now um you know he doesn't talk about like

cgi he doesn't get super picky about that I've actually gotten a little more picky about that, which is why I haven't really been watching a whole lot of stuff in the past five to ten years.

Like blockbustery stuff. Yeah.

But he gets really crazy about like the comic book movies. What do you mean?

He's a little outraged because I'm not into them.

Because he's like, that's all there is.

Yeah, Rick's a real Martin Scorsese.

More Hugo.

Yeah, more Hugo, less Loki, right? Exactly.

I don't know. I could watch Tom Hiddleston every day of the week.
Fair. And I mean, he likes so many movies.
The place that we used to work at together, we would have like a trivia day every so often.

And when there was like a film question, my boss would automatically tell Rick to just sit down and shut up because he would be the one to get it right every time.

She wanted to give other people a chance. What's it like watching a movie with Rick? It's all right.

I'm quiet. I like to think I'm very quiet during, like during the movie itself.

He's quiet. I move around a lot and I think it drives him crazy.
Yeah. I have a hard time just sitting.
But does he offer any sort of running commentary? Does he force you to watch a PowerPoint?

Is there anything like that going on? No, if he put a PowerPoint on, I think I'd just bolt. I'd go shopping.
I want you to be very honest with me here, Nikki. Sure.
Were you putting on charade

to cause a reaction in Rick?

Absolutely not.

I wanted to watch it, tell him I watched it, and then I thought he'd be like, oh, babe, babe, that's awesome. What's next?

But... You weren't doing this to tweak his brand as the movie guy?

You weren't doing this

to take away some pleasure from him, to make him feel like his whole sense of self was being shattered because he's the only one who's allowed to like old movies? No, I thought he would be happy.

I thought he'd be impressed.

And,

you know, I thought that would encourage us to watch something else when he was done working. Rick, why why weren't you just happy and impressed?

Because

if

I feel like if I threw on charade and it was my idea, she'd be like, nah, let's not watch that.

Okay, but what's the problem with that?

This time she did, she initiated herself.

Why can't she just initiate her own charade?

Because I'm not there.

Okay, this is what I'm trying to get at the emotional core of.

Why do you have to gatekeep the watching of old movies what is threatening to you about it i mean you could say it makes me sad i if she wants to enjoy old movies i would love to enjoy old movies with her and i feel left out

that would be selfish but but emotionally understandable yeah and i'd say that's pretty much it

but in air quotes he allowed me to watch breakfast at tiffany's

when you say air quotes is that because you are quoting him um he told me it was okay. And I don't do well with getting permission.
I just do what I want. Yeah.
I don't know.

I think this is why we had to hear this. You're a bad girl.

You're going to get your red wine and you're going to watch your true crime. It's crime wine time with Nikki.
That's right. That's your brand.

And it's strong. That brand is strong.
Rick,

your brand is know-it-all about movies. That brand is diluted, my friend.

I went down that road for a while. I worked in a movie video store, tried to be a know-it-all.

It's just that it's, there are too many of guys like us with glasses who are doing that game.

I get it. That's understandable.

What happened with the Irishman? Oh, okay. This was also, so this is the same day, by the way, the charade, then Roman holiday.

And then later at night, I don't remember what I was doing, but she was putting on something and it sounded interesting. And she's like, I'm like, what is this? And she goes, it's the Irishman.

And I'm like, you're killing me here. Like, after

everything today,

I kind of feel like there should be a list of like directors that if she's about to watch something with one of them in it,

she should see if I want to join in. All right, wait a minute.
You're telling me Roman holiday and Charade were the same day, Nikki. Yes.

Yeah.

Did you finish charade or no? I only got to the beginning credits. That's as far as I got.
I didn't even get to see anyone's face. Nothing.

And that's when Rick came bursting out of the bedroom in slow-mo going, no.

Yes.

You were stopped from watching it. Not this charming caper.

Did you, did he throw himself in front of the screen so you couldn't see it in slow motion sideways? Yeah.

Yes. So then he goes,

and then somehow, somehow he got distracted again and wandered off to another part of the house. And then you put in Roman holiday.
Yes. You're telling me there was no intentionality behind that?

You're going to rock another one.

Audrey Hepburn was in it and he was like, I don't like Audrey Hepburn back when we were dating. So I was like, this is fine because it it has Audrey Hepburn.
Maybe, maybe

Charade was a fluke that he was like, well, I do want to watch that. No, no, no, I understand.
I understand all this, Nikki. Let me, I have to interrupt you, though.
This is the same day. Yeah.

Where did you go, Rick, after you shut, you shut down Charade?

Probably back to overtime. And what's overtime is your job.
Yeah. What is your job?

I am a mortgage underwriter.

So

you're working from home. Yes.

We both are, actually. I understand.
Yep.

He's the underwriter and I'm the closer. Yep.
Oh, wow. These two, Mr.
and Mrs. Smith over here.

That's a movie, right, Jesse? Yeah, it is. Okay.
That's two. Okay, Rick.

Easy. I'm sorry.
I'm so sorry. Wow.
What was the plot of Mr. and Mrs.
Smith, Rick? Because I don't remember. It's like they're spies.
Yeah. Husband and wife spies? Yeah, pretty much.
Okay. Yeah.

And they, that's it. Right, okay.

Rick, what's the plot of master and commander of the far side of the world? Good question. I know Russell Crowe is on a boat and he does stuff on.
Can it can it, Rick? It's a ship. Go ahead, John.

So I didn't understand you shut down Charade. You told Nikki

you can't watch this.

I wouldn't say I said she couldn't watch it, but

okay.

He did. I'm sorry.
I hate to jump in. I'm sorry, Your Honor.
No, of course. I mean, Rick is already a proven liar.

He has denied your memory and lived experience of him seeking you out on the Ball State campus to tell you how much he hates Audrey Epburn.

How did he, what did he say? You can't watch this? What did he say? Did he say, you can't watch this? Or could you save this for later so we could watch together?

He was like, why are you watching this without me? I want to watch this too. I haven't seen it before.

Please change it.

And you said, okay. Out of love, I said, okay.

And then he went away and you're like, time for a little Roman holiday. Gas up the Vespa.
We're going to Rome.

Yes. With Audrey Hepburn and Gregory Peck.

Or did you watch the remake with Greg Kinnear?

I could have. I do like Greg Kinnear, but I didn't know there was another one.
Yeah. I don't know that Brendan Frazier's in that one, though.
Sorry.

Darn. He'll be back, though.
He's going to be with Bobby De Niro in another movie soon. So then he comes out and shuts down Roman holiday.
Yes. He comes out and he kicks down the door this time.

He bursts through the wall. No!

He came in like Jack Nicholson in the shining with the axe, just like,

how dare you? He burst forth from the underwriting nook into the Karen Kilgareth

memorial living room

and wine cellar.

That's a pretty aggressive way to describe your beloved husband. And Jack Nicholson in the shining,

knocking a door down with an axe with murderous intent. Was his attitude mean? Angry?

Scary?

I'm not scared of him, but, you know. Did you run into a hedge maze?

I was, he was, he was definitely very frustrated. Yeah, he was, he was pretty upset.
And he's like, why are you watching all this stuff without me? This is crazy.

i was outraged but in a peaceful manner

rick in the past have you suggested

classic films that are fun and light in tone and had them rejected yes but that's usually because they were musicals and she doesn't do musicals like what was a musical you suggested that nikki said no to Singing in the Rain.

I've been trying to get her for years to watch that one. Never.
How come you don't I'll never do it. How come you won't watch Singing in the Rain?

I mean, Nikki, I like your...

Everyone on Earth likes it too much.

Is it too norming for you?

I just can't. I just, I don't like, I don't like musical numbers.
I don't, I don't know. Like, I never have a reason to dance to anything.
So I don't want to watch other people dancing either.

It's singing. I don't know.
I'm just not into it. Wow.

I mean, I'm okay with Mary Poppins. That's about it.
But

um

yeah that's about it is mary poppins and that's like take that once every five years

dick van dyke was super cute in it this is like joel man here at main saying terminator 3 i don't know what's going on in his head and i don't know what's going on in your head i don't know how you like mary poppins okay but it's a big ix nay on singing in the rain co-directed by stanley donan by the way with gene kelly stanley the director of charade

But, okay. Maybe it's Dick Van Dyke.
Maybe it's Dick Van Dyke. I think he's super handsome in that movie.
So there's no Dick Van Dyke and singing in the rain. That's the

sure. Let me solve it.
If that's the argument you want me to put in, I'm going to have to say, yeah, it's because he's not in it. Right.

Dick Van Dyke being the most lauded performer in Mary Poppins.

He is very handsome and very charming, even though his accent is not so, not great.

Wonderful dancers. Oh, look, magical.
You know who else is magical? A magical hoofer?

That's a dance term meaning a dancer. Gene Kelly.

Gene Kelly.

Donald O'Connor. I don't know who that is.
He's in Singing in the Rain.

Yeah. Has he done anything else?

No, but if you watch Singing in the Rain, done anything else.

If you watch Singing in the Rain, you realize he doesn't have to do anything else. He was in that movie.
Yeah.

Before Singing in the Rain, he was an insurance adjuster. And after Singing in the Rain, he was a closer.
That's right.

One of the most gifted physical comedians of all time, Donald O'Connor. And Carrie Fisher's mom.
Oh, Debbie Reynolds. Debbie Reynolds.
Look, it's one of the classic three-handers of cinema.

Three great stars at their prime. Look, everyone agrees that Singing in the Rain is great and it's a terrible mistake not to watch it.

But my concern here is that Rick has had a lifetime of trying to get Nikki to watch Tartovsky movies when

she wants to watch

fun movies that are fun, of which there are many classic fun movies that are fun that don't have singing and dancing in them.

It's not a prerequisite for a fun movie to be fun that there's singing and dancing in it. There's other fun movies.
So is that what's going on here, Rick?

I just want to point out for the record, Jesse, that we're on a teleconference here. And when you said Tartovsky, Nikki made a facial expression that said, I don't know who that is.

And Rick leaned over and I think said to her, I'll tell you later. I've got a PowerPoint for you.
I've got a PowerPoint.

But Bailiff Jesse, you make a fine point. So bring it home for us.
Is that what's going on here, Rick? Do you have a

15, 20-year relationship with a woman to whom you have only

suggested Czech New Wave films and you can't bring yourself to

suggest a classic film that might actually fit her sensibilities?

I have had some success in like,

you know, introducing her to a Charlie Chaplin movie, and she's really like that. And so I've been able to find things,

but there has to be like this right atmosphere in the air for me to kind of just drop it on her and it work out. I'll admit it.
I'm fickle.

Yeah.

and let's let's make this like clear too i'll watch mary poppins like once every five or ten years like i've got to be in the right mood to to watch it right okay

and just so that i understand this same day after roman holiday gets shut down

by your by your axe-wielding husband rick and then you turn on the irishman and you didn't see what was going to happen at that point

i just saw the trailer on Netflix. We have the same, like, we use the same account.

And, like, we don't separate it because we, we do share it with a couple of other people. Um, we don't do that.
If Netflix is listening, we do not do that. That's a lie.

But we do. No.
Well, they've got, you know, separate profiles and stuff. So,

but we just share our own. And I saw it and I saw the trailer.
And I was like, this sounds like this could be fun. And it's not an older movie.
Let's go. And then he got really upset then too.

I put a streaming service onto my streaming box that only shows those public domain Max Fleischer Superman cartoons.

Those are very beautiful to watch. Do you hate those too, Rick? Because of superheroes? Yeah.
Boy, oh boy, oh boy. You don't like fun, huh? He's good with Batman.
I like Batman. Oh, boy.

Which is your favorite Batman, Rick?

Probably The Dark Knight. Yeah, saw that coming.
Chrissy Nolan all the way. Yeah.
Let's make a fan. Let's do a

superhero movie as though it were a Scorsese movie.

That's how you cross those streams. I think that's why I like Batman so much because they do ground it way more than others.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's like you can really

feel

the convertible bat tank. You know, it has a certain heft

to its six-foot-tall off-road wheels.

And also it turns super skinny to

go through alleys. If I were to rule in your favor, I love it when it turns super skinny to go through alleys.
That's great.

That should be in every car. It's a good feature.

You lean forward into the engine and all of a sudden you're in a super skinny version of your car. So you can go through alleys.
Yeah. Should be standard.
Don't know why it isn't.

If I were to rule in your favor, Nikki, what would you have me rule?

That

any movies older than 10 years, I should just be able to watch them if I want to. Like anything like within the 10-year mark, if he wants to watch them together, then I'm good with that.
I can wait.

But Charade's been around for a long time.

Just saying. Charade is not getting any younger.
It's true, Rick. What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor? Um,

that if anything is, let's say, pre-1970, maybe see if I want to watch it first.

Because wait, I'm probably going to be interested. You wait, wait, if it's anything pre-1970,

you

you get to watch it first before nikki can watch it

wait a minute that's a different thing than what you just said before

was it yeah a little bit

you want you called dibs on all movies pre-1970

i did nikki can't watch a pre-1970 movie until you've got until you've logged it in your eyeballs.

I mean, not until I've seen it, but just you know have me there to watch with because i'm i would i even disagree with that because a couple weeks ago i tried to watch romeo and juliet and he threw a fit the zephyr relic and was like or the um boz

no no this would be the leonardo diCaprio claire danes yeah the boz luhrmans romeo

plus julieto plus juliet and what happened i had to shut it off what do you mean you had to shut it off you have agency as a human being he came in and asked you to shut it off and you did it. Yeah.

And I was just like, you know, I was just feeling it because I love,

it's been a long time since I've seen it. And I love the band garbage.
And I was like, I'll probably hear some garbage music playing. And,

you know, you'll get a taste of that particular horniness of the late 1990s. Yes, I absolutely love it.
That particular horniness of the late 1990s is the new Bo Burnham movie, I think.

I'm really excited that that joke landed because I was really out on a limb. Really out on a limb.
Okay, I think I've heard enough in order to make my verdict.

I'm going to get into my very, very skinny car, go through some alleys. I'll be right back.
There are no alleys here in Maine.

I'll just be skinny on route one. I'm going to get skinny on route one, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.
Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Nikki, do you think that if Rick wasn't working overtime when you started watching this movie, you would have invited him to watch it with you? Yeah.

Do you think you would have been happy to watch it with him had he wandered in and been leaving work? I really didn't think he'd be interested because he told me he didn't like Audrey Hepburn.

But I would have invited him. I would have asked him for sure.
What do you think about your chances in this case? I don't think they're very good.

But why is that? I don't know. I just have a feeling it won't go well.

No, no, no, no, no.

Rick, how are you feeling about your chances?

Less great compared to before,

but I'm still. Rick,

what's your favorite overall Walter Mathow movie? Oh, Walter Mathow. Boy, that's, ooh, that's a tough one.
I do really like taking of Pilum 123. Yeah, movie owns.

Especially if you're going to talk about a movie that really showcases Walter Mathow. I mean, Charade, of course, is probably the greatest showcase for it, but go ahead.

I know you have to. I wouldn't know.

But yeah, I'll just go with taking a pill on one, two, three, just because I know I'm forgetting something that I probably would rather answer. Seen the odd couple? Yes.

He's great in that one. A New Leaf.
Have you seen the Elaine May movie, A New Leaf? I have not. I've heard of it.
Kind of a screwball comedy. That's a really good one.

Charlie Varrick, have you seen that one? No, I have not. Whoo, that's a really good one.
Hopscotch, have you seen that one?

That's the one where he's a CIA agent who's trying to leave the agency and he's just flying around on his own airplane. I had not even heard of it until it came up on the docket episode.
Boy.

Well, looks like you've got your work cut out for you no matter how this case goes.

How do you feel about your chances?

Less great than I hoped, but

I'm confident that justice will prevail.

Yeah.

I mean,

I I just, I would love to, I would love to get you into a 1980 hopscotch if I can.

I know I'm not the closer here, but regardless of what happens, I'll seek out hopscotch. We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a minute.

Hello. Hello, I'm calling on behalf of the Beef and Dairy Network podcast.
Oh, no, I'm sorry. No sales calls.
Goodbye.

It's a multi-award-winning podcast featuring guests such as Ted Danson, Nick Offerman, Josie Long. I don't know what a Josie Long is.

And anyway, I'm about to take my mother into town to see Phantom of the Opera at last. You are wasting my time, and even worse, my mother's time.
She only has so much time left. She's 98 years old.

She's only expected to live for another 20 or 30 years. Mother, get your shoes on.
Yes, the orthopaedic ones. I don't want to have to carry you home again, do I?

Right, well, if you were looking for a podcast, Mother, you're not wearing that, are you? It's very revealing, Mother. This is a musical theater, not a Parisian bordello.
Simply go to maximum fun.org.

I'm reaching for my Samsung Galaxy 4 as we speak. Mother! Mother, not Hat!

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

I rarely do this, but I do have to ask a question that I should have asked earlier, which is, why haven't you seen any of these Walter Mathow movies? I thought you were a film fanatic.

I've seen Walter Mathow movies. It was just none of the ones that he mentioned.
It's probably another one. He was like, yeah, I don't like it.

Yeah, I guess I was just listing the best Walter Mathow movies, so it makes sense. I mean,

I've seen The Fortune Cookie.

Rick, don't defend yourself. This is where I talk.

But you can answer this question for me. Like, do you find it hard, given the amount of overtime that you're working,

Do you find it hard to watch as many movies as you would like? Is that why you're so low on your Mathow batting average? Yeah, yeah, there's a mix of that. And I also like to re-watch movies a lot.

Like, I kind of, there's that little kid sensibility of watching the same movie a lot that never quite went away with me.

And do you find that you would like to watch more movies, but part of the reason is that you're working? And also part of the reason is that Nikki doesn't want to watch certain movies with you.

Yeah, yeah, that's accurate. And so then that, that, that lowers the amount of time you can devote to movie-dom, movie film fanaticism, as it were.
Yes.

A combo of professional obligation, a partner that doesn't share your taste, and the fact that what movie time you do have, you're wasting watching the Dark Knight over and over and over again instead of watching something new.

Yes. Rick, it is hard for me to understand how I could have found in your favor on the docket.

I like you. We're having fun together.
I love the Fortville vibe that I'm getting from both of you. I enjoyed the cameo appearance of your cat.
What is your cat's name

oh this one's calzone calzone

right yeah good cat that's a good cat name how many cats do you have three what are their what are all their names

there is calzone lillian and michael keaton

this is see but nikki this is what i don't i don't

It's like Joel Mann all over again. I don't know where this is coming from.

What?

Calzone, Lily. Like, I love a

calzone.

A lot of cats are shaped like a calzone. I get it.
Naming a cat for food. I love it.
I love any animal that has an actual human name, Lillian.

And then you go to Michael Keaton, all over the map, Nikki. You're hard to read.

Like, here's the thing. This is what I'm saying about Rick.

Rick, you're a gatekeeper and it's terrible. It's a bad, bad thing.

As I was saying earlier, you know, being the pale guy with glasses who likes movies, that is what we call in the movie trade a cliché at this point.

And it is not a terrific look.

People like what they like. That is settled law.
And you are absolutely entitled to like all the movies that you like.

You are absolutely entitled to re-watch The Dark Knight all the time, to know as much about the movies that you love.

to want to talk about them, to share them with your friends and give them PowerPoint presentations.

And it's, I guess you have friends who come back after seeing these PowerPoint presentations for more. And that's great.

Equally is absolutely Nikki's right to like what she likes and to develop the taste that she wants to develop in the way that she wants to. You don't have dibs over 70s movies.

What we watch does not make us who we are. The culture that we take in is not who we are.
That is not a brand of identity.

And I would say, if you were really a film fanatic, and I know that it's hard to do it, but you know, get out there and watch as many movies as you can, as often as you can. Different ones, new ones.

Take in more culture. You don't have a lot of time.
Do you have, I mean, I know you have three cats, but do you have kids by any chance? No. No.

No, all you should be doing, Rick, is watching movies right now. I agree.
Yeah, get rid of these blind spots. And don't try to police police what Nikki is watching or not watching.

Settled law on Judge John Hodgman, we don't force other people to watch movies because they're good, quote unquote, unquote. You can offer.
And if they say no, that's it. That's all you can do.

People like what they like. Or if they give it a shot and they don't like it, that's fine.
That's the way it goes. And if they want to watch Charade,

just let them watch Charade. You can't not let someone, the person you care about, not watch a movie.
I don't understand how it got to this point, Nikki, that he could say, don't watch that.

And you, at no point in this conversation, do the two of you say, maybe let's save it for later. When I'm done my work, can we watch this together?

Nikki, though, I got to say something. You're unpredictable.
You're fickle.

I am. Yeah.
I am those things.

These are your words.

One minute I want to watch it. The next minute, the moment's gone.
Yeah. It's hard.
You're hard to grab. Hard to grab.
I have to say, the other thing I don't like about Rick, unreliable narrator,

claims to have never said that he doesn't like Audrey Hepburn. You claim to remember it.
Some one of you's lying.

But also,

speaking of unreliable narrators, I don't buy it, Nikki. I'm sorry.
Doesn't pass the smell test.

Charade to Roman Holiday, to the Irishman, with him coming out each time, getting angrier and angrier and angrier

because you're doing the thing that he always asked you to do, which is watch old movies.

And he can't do it with you? You're like, fine, here comes Roman Holiday.

Fine. You made one mistake.
One mistake because you are not a film fanatic like Rick. If you were going to pull what you were pulling,

you would do charade to Roman holiday, then carry Granted again with Gaslight, because that's what you were doing. Gaslighter meets Gatekeeper.

You cannot tell me that you were not

doing that intentionally to bother bother Rick. He deserved it.

He deserved it.

You are under fake oath, and you'll probably deny that you were doing it on purpose.

I think there had to have been part of you that was doing it on purpose to get your husband. I swear.

To get your husband to run out of the room and watch him slowly mentally degrade like Jack Torrance and the Shiny.

Judge Hodgman, they say the key to lying is to embed a kernel of truth.

And it seems possible that when she put on that first film, Nikki thought, well, my husband will be proud of me if I watch this old movie.

But by the time he came in to stop her the second time, she wants us to believe.

She wants us to believe?

When she put on the Irishman?

In my defense, I have no idea who directed the Irishman. Wow.
I have no idea. I just watched a trailer and I thought, oh.

Wow. I'm watching Rick's brain explode.

All of. I don't understand how anyone, anyone

doesn't know that The Irishman was directed by Brendan Frazier.

Can't you guys just find some common ground? Watch Gods and Monsters. Hey, I think we could make that happen.
Never heard of it. Brendan Frazier and Ian McKellen.

He plays the director of the Frankenstein movies, James Whale. Ian McKellen does.
Yeah, see, this is not, you're not doing, Rick, Rick, Rick.

I'm sorry.

I want you two to be happy.

And what's missing here is a generosity of communication between the two of you, a presumption of good intention.

When Nikki puts on charade, do not automatically leap to the presumption that she is gaslighting you. She is purposefully annoying you.
She claims that's not true.

Even though I suspect it, I believe her if she says that it's not true. Presume good intention.
Say, I would like to watch this with you. Can you wait until later?

I will never, ever, ever let you put dibs on movies to watch before her. And I would also say, Rick, that

you should not

start doing a PowerPoint presentation the moment you are trying to get Nikki to watch a movie.

You don't have to be talking about how it's a biopic about James Whale, the director of Frankenstein. That is not going to, that's not a log line that's going to work for Nikki.

There's a reason Nikki's the closer.

That's a good point, Jesse. Bailiff Jesse Thorne gets to the crux before I do.
Nikki knows how to close a deal. Nikki knows how to make it happen.
You got to take a lesson, Nikki.

How would you get Rick to watch a movie with you?

I would show him a trailer to pique his interest.

And that's what I would like in return is if he's interested in something and I'm just kind of like, I don't think I'm feeling it, watch a trailer.

And if I'm interested in the trailer, we can watch it. So yeah.
Wow. Nikki just closed the deal, Rick.
Just play the trailer. Play the trailer.
It's designed to get people to want to watch the movie.

Okay. You know what I mean? Like, there's a reason that when a movie comes out, the trailer is not a guy who looks like you or me with glasses.
saying, okay, here's why this is important. Here's why.

You know what I mean?

Like they have professional people trying to trick you into watching this movie. Yeah, they show you what would make someone want to watch the movie.
They show you that Russell Crowe is on a ship.

They show you that there's different knots and rope things. Right.
You know, they show you that there's a dangerous storm and he's friends with a doctor on this ship. Paul Betany.
Paul Betany.

I highly recommend that you watch. Master and Commander.
What's the full title again, Jesse? Master and Commander, The Far Side. The Far Side of the World is a really terrific movie.

I hope you enjoy it. See, that's all you have to say.
Then watch the trailer and then you. Do you have a PowerPoint for him? No, I don't have a PowerPoint for him.
No.

Jamal Bowie has one, though, that he'd like to show you.

So, wait a minute. How am I going to rule on this one? I mean, I've given you both a lot of guff, and I hope you appreciate that it's from a place of affection.
I like you guys. I like Calzone.

I like Lillian. I like

Michael Keaton, which is a pretty cool cat name.

And I hope that you both understand that the important thing here is to respect each other's separate tastes, which I don't think is a problem for you, Nikki. You respect Rick's taste, right?

Absolutely. Yeah.

Respect each other's respective tastes and hope that you can share your taste with them rather than get upset if Nikki's doing something off-brand in your marriage, like watching a fun movie without you.

Like a fun old movie. You want her to watch fun old movies.
So, since you asked for the ruling, Rick,

that I give you dibs on first watch of all movies that are made before 1970, I cannot

rule in your favor on that one.

But

since Nikki, I think, is playing head games, I'm going to stress seriously, Nikki, no more head games with Rick. I know that you can, I know,

I know how tempting it is. I can feel it.
Rick is going to be more inclusive, less gatekeepy, less professorial, less talky in his suggestions.

And you're both going to listen to what the other person says and try to find a compromise rather than play

weird games of like

winding Rick up by playing more and more old movies that he would like to see. And one new movie that made old guys look young that I did not see.
That's the Irishman. So I fine in favor of Nikki.

She can watch what she wants to watch. Just like Rick, you can watch what you want to watch.
But if Nikki is watching something that intrigues you, then

make a date to watch it together.

So Nikki, if Rick is doing working overtime and you decide to put on Turner Classic movies or whatever and he runs out, it is a good idea for you to wait for him to watch a movie if he expressed interest in it.

That would be a nice thing to do, the two of you to sit together and watch a movie. That's a nice thing for a couple to do.
And, Rick, if you want Nikki to watch a movie, just show her the trailer.

I find in Nikki's favorite this is the sound of a gabble.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules: that is all. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Nikki, how do you feel? Shocked, excited, vindicated.

Rick, how are you feeling? Outraged, incensed, and I will appeal. There's no appeals process.

Can there be one? You already got two hearings. You each took one home.

If I were you, if I were you, Rick, this is your time to start writing lists of fun movies you haven't seen and finding the trailers. I will get on that.

Well, Rick, Nikki, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you so much.
Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. In a moment, we'll dispense some swift justice.
First, our thanks to David Hoffman for naming this week's episode, The Motion is Carry Granted.

If you'd like to name a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we put out calls for submissions there. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Our editor, Valerie Moffat, our engineer in Maine is Joel Mann, the program and operations manager at WERU Community Radio in Orland, Maine.

You can listen to WERU at WERU.org, and you can follow Joel on Instagram. His handle there is the main man.
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Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment.

Roger says, on a game show, when they ask where you're from, you should say your current town and state. My wife says it's your birth town and state.

Normally I will say that if someone asks you, where are you from, they're wanting to know where you grew up.

But I believe there is a game show exception.

If a game show asks, where are you from, they want to know where you are living and residing now, so that you might give a brief anecdote about what is happening in your life now.

Of course, the best thing to say if you're a contestant on a game show is to tell the host that you want to be a race car driver, but you can't. It's a reference to our friends Kasperhauser.

Phone call to the 14th century. Check it out on maximumfun.org.

You know, on these more recent Jeopardys,

because of the pandemic, I learned this on Stop Podcasting Yourself. Because of the pandemic, they were only casting Jeopardy locally.
So they didn't want to make people travel.

And so they were asking everyone, where are you from originally? in order to disguise the fact that everyone competing was basically from Color City.

Oh, wow. Well,

that's the exception to the exception to the rule. There you go.
That's it for this week's Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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