Hubble Jeopardy

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Hubble Jeopardy.

Catherine files suit against her friend Jerome.

Jerome commissioned Catherine to paint large-scale panels inspired by the Hubble telescope photos.

She did, and he's thrilled, except for one thing.

She didn't sign her work.

She says that's not her thing, but even still, Jerome thinks she should sign the panels.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

A straight line can be readily drawn among each of the two series of points corresponding to the maxima and minima, thus showing that there is a simple relation between the brightness of the Cepheid variables and their periods.

Catherine and Jerome, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help help you, God, or whatever.

Whatever.

We do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's a rocket man, and I think it's going to be a long, long time?

Yes, we do.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Catherine and Jerome, you may be seated.

For an immediate summary judgment, in one of yours favors, could one of you please, or both of you, perhaps name?

The piece of obscure culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom.

Catherine, why don't you guess first?

I'm going to guess

Star Trek, the original series, the Mirror Mirror episode, and Evil Spock says it.

Whew!

That is a solid guess.

A straight line can be readily drawn among each of the two series of points corresponding to the maximum and minima.

The mirror mirror episode from the original series, TOS, of Star Trek, I'm putting into the guest book, Jerome.

John, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt here, but I think it's a bad guess because,

Because John, John,

Spock is a good guy.

Oh, I'm sorry, Jesse, but when he has a goatee, he's all evil.

He has pointy ears.

You're thinking of a different character.

Go ahead, John.

I'm sorry, Catherine.

You may not know this, but I think it's been how long, Jesse, that you've had a beard and a mustache?

Oh, six years?

Seven years?

Yeah, seven years, let's say.

That's when evil Jesse came in.

We're dealing with Mira Universe, Jesse.

I don't know what you did with

my lovely

bald-faced, bald-headed, pure baby-faced man-child friend that I used to know.

But guess what?

In 2014 or 15 or so, I grew a beard too.

So we're both Mirror Universe.

Yeah, we're evil.

Watch out, punk rock guys on buses.

That's right.

We're going to give you the death grip.

That's right.

And we we know that Jennifer Marmor is Mira Universe, Jennifer Marmor, because she's wearing a golden sash and she's carrying a cutlass.

But Joel Mann here at WERU in Maine, you've always rocked that goatee, right?

That's right.

Okay.

Joel Mann is chaotic neutral.

That's right.

Joel Mann is Uatu the Watcher.

He is not paying attention to, he's not a moral arbiter of this universe.

He just sits behind the glass.

Anyway, Jerome, what was your guess?

My guess is

Euclid the Elements.

Eucalypt the Elements.

Jesse, is that a rapper?

No, that's the

third baseman from Moneyball.

Got it.

Kevin Euclid.

All guesses are wrong.

I am

sorry to say.

I was hoping that one of you could say, well, I guess you're probably quoting Edwin Hubble, for whom the Hubble telescope is named.

And then I could say, no, you're wrong again.

Double wrong on you, because the person I was actually quoting was Henrietta Swan-Levitt.

Now, Henrietta Swan-Levitt was an astronomer.

She lived from 1868 to 1921.

She died young at the age of 53.

She was a graduate of Radcliffe.

She eventually became a person without hearing.

She was a non-hearing astronomer.

for much of her career, which was spent at the Harvard College Observatory, where she worked as a, quote, computer,

which was the name that men scientists gave to women scientists before they would admit they were scientists.

They were computers of data, specifically tasked with examining photographic plates and measuring and cataloging the brightness of stars.

She prepared a study in 1912 that I quoted from.

That study was called The Periods of 25 Variable Stars in the Small Magellanic Cloud, which everyone now knows as the PO25 mixtape, in which she outlined the period-luminosity relationship of sea-feed stars.

I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Don't send me letters.

C-E-P-H-E-I-T, maybe Cepheid.

The point is these stars pulse in temperature and light, and the constant relationship between their period and their luminosity would become known as Levitt's Law and would allow astronomers to, for once, and finally, be able to calculate not only galactic distances, but intergalactic distances, which they couldn't do before then because they only had tape measures.

Levitt's law allowed astronomers to establish that the universe is much larger than we thought,

also established we're not at the center of it, and also would be used by Edwin Hubble to demonstrate that the universe is expanding.

It's getting bigger.

That was Edwin Hubble's big discovery that got his name on a telescope, even though his discovery was based on a piece of research done by Henrietta Swan Levitt, who died in Cambridge, Massachusetts, our fair city, at the age of 53.

And she only got an asteroid out of it,

asteroid 5383 Levitt, and a hole in the moon called Crater Levitt on the dark side of the moon.

She also got a telescope somewhere else.

So there you go.

History lesson for you astronomy buffs.

Wow.

Good for them.

Yeah.

Very good.

Don't put down the dark side of the moon, John.

That's the cool side of the moon, literally and figuratively.

I don't have a Pink Floyd joke for you.

Do you have one for me?

I don't know.

I'm kind of comfortably numb over here.

We're all just bricks in the wall.

Oh, boy, Joel.

Joel brought it home.

If you want to, you're just supposed to be watching.

You can't affect this reality.

Anyway, let's hear this case.

Catherine.

Hi.

You come to this court seeking justice.

What is the justice that you seek?

Oh,

Jerome wants me to

sign these humongous drops that I've painted.

And I just don't want to do it.

I'm not going to do it.

I don't want to do it.

You've created art for Jerome's home?

I did.

Jerome has this amazing.

What I like to call the Jerhome?

Yeah.

It's actually an outbuilding.

It's like separate from the home.

It's its own

special realm.

That's a poop shack.

It's a poop shack.

Sure.

You drew a starscape for Jerome's poop shack out back

composting toilet.

Please do not insult the Jerhome, John.

The Jerhome is known the world over for its Your Majesty.

And you don't want to sign your art because you would prefer to go down in relative anonymity, much like Henriana Swan Levitt.

Well, yes, truly.

Honestly, yes.

because I have a theater background and uh I've learned sort of I've learned to do work in service of a greater good.

Usually in theater, it's a service of the show.

And I feel like this was exactly in the service of Jerome's vision.

It wasn't really my personal artwork.

Also, they're huge.

They're like theater drops.

Nine foot by 12 foot

canvases that

like you wouldn't make a drop for a theater show and put your name on it.

Like, you would just do it.

I completely understand where you're coming from.

Yeah, you would just moonwalk out of there knowing that you did a great job.

I completely understand where you're coming from, Catherine.

Jesse Thorne, you know, I have not spent a lot of time treading the boards of live theater, but I certainly have done my fair share of my imitation acting on screen.

And I've spent some time in the entertainment world, and I can confirm with Catherine it is a completely egoless pursuit.

The one thing that matters the least when putting on any kind of show is no one gets credit.

No one gets credit at all whatsoever.

No one cares as long as the show goes on.

No one cares where they appear in the credits.

We're all just a face in the crowd, John.

Another brick in the wall.

That's why one goes into the entertainment industry.

That's right.

Become faceless.

Catherine, do you have a, you have a background in theater?

You refer to these things as drops.

And just for those of our listeners who are not down with the theater lingo, a drop would be what?

I call them a drop because they're made from drop cloths, like painters' drop cloths.

And so they're soft.

They're not stretched on a canvas.

And Jerome has sort of hung them in his place.

Some of them kind of drape or mounted.

They're all mounted.

They're all mounted.

Just be respectful

of your art.

Jerome,

may I congratulate you in this astronomy-adjacent conversation for taking that beautiful Carl Sagan cadence and bringing some of that Sagan energy to the...

Yeah.

You let the record show that I can see Jerome visibly on the teleconference using his hands to literally bring down the energy.

They're mounted.

Yeah.

I mean, if listeners at home could see Jerome's enormous necktie right now, they would know how Carl Sagany he is.

Well, it's a virtual necktie.

Well, I would call it a cravat myself.

Where's the theater background now?

You have menswear, the mensweary.

Should we talk about the footprints?

So Jerome also has...

I don't know.

I seem to recall that I'm the judge and I lead the conversation.

Oh.

But I'll allow it.

Let's talk about the footprint, whatever that may be.

I can see I'm going to have no control over this situation.

Jerome, do you want to talk about it?

Yeah, we haven't heard from you, Jerome.

Well, there are three footprints in one of the panels.

I call them panels rather than drops.

To me, it's more respectful.

And

on one of the panels, there are three footprints.

Two,

I say footprints, they're shoe prints.

And two are in black and one is in white.

They're kind of toward the center of the piece.

And one of the things, along with asking that Catherine sign each of the panels, I wanted her to correct

that one panel

to remove the

shoe prints, the three shoe prints.

These are shoe prints.

Wait a minute.

I thought that these were images of galactic majesty inspired by photographs of the vast universe as captured by the Hubble telescope.

Catherine, are you saying you caught footprints in these photographs?

Have you proved the existence of interstellar travelers?

They are space footprints.

Yeah, truly, truly,

I work on them on the ground.

I paint with a paintbrush on a stick and spray paint.

I lay them all out and

walk all over the canvas.

Oh, I see.

So

a few of my special little size eight

shoe prints made it on to the

nebula.

So I

happen to just leave them there because I'm used to a very forgiving medium.

In theater, things are seen from very far away.

And a shoe print is, it just disappears.

And I thought these are going to be a lot of fun.

Actual shoe prints.

I stepped in the paint and then I stepped on the nebula.

And

I just missed it.

Classic problem.

I missed it.

I didn't fix it.

Okay.

So Jerome is

is not merely seeking that you sign your work, but is also seeking damages for stepping all over your own work.

My argument is that the shoe prints are my signature, and that's where I would like to leave it.

Well, I wish you would have left for me to come up to that in my verdict, because that is exactly what I was going to order.

But I think we have more to hear from Jerome because my position may change.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Jerome, you commissioned these

panels, these drops, these paintings of the heavens,

which we're going to take a look at.

I believe we have evidence, and folks can go over to the Judge John Hodgman page at maximumfund.org and to our Instagram at judgejohodgman to see the evidence.

But before we look at the images, let's talk about what your desire was for them and

the meaning behind the commission.

Well,

I have this metal building.

It's 18 feet wide, 30 feet long.

And

you need all of that just to take an outdoors poop?

Hey, let's not get personal.

Joel, what's that?

About 540 square feet?

Exactly.

540 is my number for it.

And

the peak of the roof is 12 feet high.

So it's kind of one

cathedral ceiling

building that I insulated myself and have it set up as my TARDIS, not a physical TARDIS, but a TARDIS of the mind.

Okay.

And that's

flying figures.

That's my idea

with

these panels, the Hubble

telescope picture inspired galaxies, nebula.

And

it's when I walk in and when I have guests in, it's to take you to

new dimensions in mental space and

multi-dimensions.

Got it.

I'm going to...

Let's just hold on to Artis of the Mind for a second because I'm getting a very different mental picture.

When Catherine described this as an an outbuilding, obviously

my mind immediately went to the toilet, specifically the outdoor composting toilet.

This is a major structure

that you have.

It is not a shed.

It is a meow wolf-style experience, it sounds like.

Yes.

And John, just to be clear, your head is still in the toilet.

My head is way back like five minutes ago in the mall food court with the paintbrush on a stick.

Well, let's take a look at the evidence in this TARDIS of the mind.

Once again, all the evidence will be available on our Judge John Hodgman Instagram account and our show page at maximumfund.org.

Exhibit A, Jerome's Exhibit A.

This is my entry door to my TARDIS.

So what I'm seeing here is a door that is painted black.

Thank you, by the way.

I was tired of that red one.

And it is surrounded by

it is surrounded by a corona of painted light.

Well,

it is

a, you know, the opening of Doctor Who

each episode is the spiraling space that draws you in.

That's what I was capturing

with that entrance.

Okay, so then you open this door.

Wait, hold on, John.

You're leaving out a key piece about this door, which is it appears to have been textured with

that kind of expanding foam insulation that comes out of a spray can.

Well, okay, this point.

It is.

And then

that foam is then covered with an exterior caulk and then painted on top of that.

Yeah, so he also caulked it up.

And is this your work or Catherine's work?

This is my work.

My caulk.

What planet are you on?

Are you on Earth Earth with us?

I come and go.

Okay.

What region of Earth

do you live on currently?

If this is indeed in our dimension, what region of Earth is

this TARDIS of the mind dimensionally situated?

New Albany, Indiana.

New Albany, Indiana.

Okay.

One of the

great

remaining gems of small town America.

What do you mean?

Well, population 36,000, and it's gorgeous.

It's beautiful.

I'm sorry.

I'm executed so.

I heard gym as in G-Y-M.

I didn't hear gem.

I apologize.

I thought there was some special YMCA there.

I apologize.

Well, they do have a great YMCA, but.

Oh, okay.

Well, then let's leave it in.

Not one.

Shout out to the new Albany Y.

All right.

This is, John, one of those small towns in America that I learned about from American Pickers where everyone just has unlimited outbuildings.

Just so many outbuildings.

Yeah.

And Jerome and Catherine, just to be clear, you are friends, correct?

Yes.

We met at a meditation group.

Oh, okay.

And what kind of meditation did you do?

David Lynch style?

Transcendental with cigarettes?

It's a Zen meditation group.

Wonderful.

We sit for an hour and then we chant and then we read a koan.

Lovely.

And are you also a resident of New Albany, Indiana, the gem of Indiana?

Jerome and I live about 15 minutes apart, but we live in different states.

I'm right across the river in Louisville, Kentucky.

Got it.

Why Why make it simple?

You obviously inhabit multiple planes of existence.

I get it.

Sometimes you're in Kentucky, sometimes you're in Indiana.

It's impossible to tell.

Exhibit B.

I quote: in the backyard leading to the TARDIS, is it, we're not even in the TARDIS yet, Jerome?

No, we're still getting there.

We're getting there.

How many exhibits are?

C, exhibit C, D,

E, E,

F,

G,

H,

I.

got a lot of editors.

It's an audio podcast.

One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve.

All right.

I'm going to ask

everyone to pause the podcast for a moment.

and do whatever you need to do to open your third eye so that as I can describe these things to you, you can travel with me into the world of

Jerome and the many universes that are contained within his outbuilding.

I'm going to do my best to get through as much of this as I can.

All right.

Did you all pause?

Are you ready now?

Is your third eye opened?

Joel Mann, third eye open?

Open.

Good.

Joel, you are going to represent the listener to me because I know you can't see what I'm seeing.

Got it.

In the backyard leading to the TARDIS is a driftwood sculpture with a colony of frolics.

The frolics share a common ancestor with Daleks.

They're villains from Doctor Who, Joel.

Who?

Right.

The Frolics, however, are generous, fun-loving, free-spirited, not like the Daleks at all.

And these are, and did you make these?

Are these all your work?

These little driftwood.

These are all my work, yes.

And the frolics are your own adventure, right?

Oh, well,

I would say I discovered them.

Right.

I look forward to hearing hearing you mount that defense when the BBC sues you out of existence.

Jerome Exhibit C.

This is the man cave on your right as you step in.

The front divider panel is the first thing you see as you walk into the TARDIS.

Here is a room full of beautiful galactic imagery on the walls, as well as quite a few fairy lights and also a wood stove and a nice flat panel TV and some armchairs.

Is this your work, Catherine?

These

starry nights?

Yes, yes, yes, it is.

Beautiful.

Indeed.

Thank you.

Really lovely.

I honestly did not imagine we would get to something relevant to our case as soon as Exhibit C.

I'm grateful for that.

This is the one you may want to look at, Joel, when you're going to judge Sean Hodgman on Instagram, Exhibit C.

Okay.

These are the paintings of the stars that Catherine made.

Catherine, did you freehand these or free foot these?

Or are these based on actual Hubble photographs?

I did.

Uh, Jerome, let me borrow a book of Hubble images, and so each one kind of has a source image, but um,

mostly I uh

almost like tie-dyed, like dipped the fabric first and sort of used the shape that emerged.

It was um pretty uh

give and take emotionally with uh seeing

so inspired by

it was yes

as opposed to

as opposed to a one-to-one imitation

sure

yeah that's what art is good for you it's beautiful thank you jerome let you borrow this book of hubble telescope photographs yes i got it i got paint all over it

oh really interesting

yeah i don't mind those shoe prints

because oh because you own because oh this is a book that you own jerome is that right i see see so you believe in ownership of material things oh yeah huh funny interesting not very zen whatever exhibit d uh you step into the tardis to your left is the art corner um with the following elements

on that point i just would invite you to go to any zen center and at the end of the sitting try and walk out with one of the cushions see how non-possessive they are.

You mean

I can get a free cushion if I want out of this place?

If you can run fast enough, yes.

I just, John,

before we get into what's depicted here in Exhibit D, I just want to clarify for the at-home listener who's not looking at the notes here that with the exception of art corner, all the proper nouns you're about to hear have their first letters capitalized.

These are all official titles.

They're not just descriptions.

No, they're areas of the TARDIS.

Yeah, they're official titles.

They could be commemorated with a plaque for all we know.

As you step into the TARDIS,

the first installation you see is

capital C confronting art challenge.

The confronting art challenge.

Next on survivor.

Let me just set the stage here for everyone who's listening.

To the left is the tunnel tunnel of lights, capital T, capital L, together with various bolo ties.

I think we're going to get to those later.

To the right is the quote, capital L literal sacrifice sculpture and the sculpture of pots, along with various bolo ties.

And then launching off in the art corner is the vacuum of space bot.

There's a lot to take in here, Jerome.

And by the way,

what does the spacebot have against bolo ties?

That's what I want to know.

Well, the vacuum of space bot started out as three defunct vacuum cleaners and got transformed into a bot isn't it a rocket ship well it's launching itself into space now let me give credit where credit is due here derome because this is an amazing physical space that you have created this is all your work correct jerome correct yeah

and it is a it is a multimedia found object collage

full of light and color and bolo ties

that is very, very difficult to explain with words.

It is not, shall I say, grockable, simply

using linear language,

especially since you described four photos here and you provided only three.

That, I believe, is called

the challenge of confronting art.

Well, I think if you scroll down a little, you'll see the bot.

Oh, believe me, I'm scrolling, Jerome.

I am scrolling.

I want to say here that while these installations have ridiculous names and a homemade quality to them, they really are pretty remarkable.

Like they're really something to see.

Obviously, we're in challenging times when it comes to being together in shared spaces and breathing on each other.

But in better times in past and we hope future, is this a place that you would share with members of the new New Albany community?

Or is this just a place for yourself to unwind, reconnect and visit the stars?

Well, it's also for, you know, people in my immediate circle.

So like

people from my online book club and people from

my

Zen meditation group and people from my men's group have joined me in this, but I'm not thinking in terms of opening it to the general public.

No.

Well, I think I assume that after my death, it will be one of those,

we don't know what we found, but you've got to come see this kind of things.

Which is an incredible,

you know, honestly, as someone who ponders death quite a bit myself, that's not, I never thought about a legacy as inspiring as that.

It's just a truly confounding thing you leave behind for future generations to ponder and worry about.

I think it's a beautiful, I think it's a beautiful space, Jerome.

I think it's fantastic.

Jerome, have you ever seen the throne of the third heaven of the nation's Millennium General Assembly at the Smithsonian in Washington, D.C.?

No, I've only seen it when it's in recess in my own mind.

I think you just got got, Jesse.

I think, in terms of

the legacy, I'm thinking of this kind of as a stonehinge of the mind.

This is my art corner.

I mentioned the throne of the third heaven of the nation's Millennium General Assembly because it is this amazing

installation.

I mean, it is a throne made of silver and gold tinfoil that this man named James Hampton built in, I think it's a two-car garage in Washington, D.C., secretly over the course of like 15 years in the 50s and 60s, that was only found upon his death

and was then moved to the Smithsonian.

It's just one of the most breathtaking things I've ever seen in my life.

And your space,

you know, it's a little bit of that and maybe a little bit Pee Wee's Playhouse.

But yes, you're right.

It's that kind of outsider assembly art that inspires me.

Yes.

Yeah.

I sense a little Gary Panter in there as well, Jesse Thorne.

See, I know some things about art.

Who are your inspirations, Jerome?

Well, I don't know particular names, just looking through books of outsider art.

And your own mind.

Oh, well,

let's never leave that.

No, I agree.

Let's never leave Jerome's mind.

I am ready to live in Jerome's mind forever and ever.

I think Jerome pretty much only leaves Jerome's mind to maybe cop a few new bolos.

Yeah, let's talk about exhibit H, Jerome.

I'm skipping ahead a bit.

Starting in the, and I quote, starting in the art corner and spilling out into the workspace area are my 280 bolo ties.

My plan is for these to eventually be transmogrified into wall bolos,

parentheses,

a brand new category I will be pioneering, in parentheses.

Okay.

Before we move into wall bolos, congratulations.

280 bolo ties is a lot.

I think that's slightly more bolo ties than I had in my wardrobe in 1988, and I had quite a few.

Yeah, that's what they call a Lyle Lovett of Bolo ties.

And you have these beautiful bolo ties, some of which also seem to be constructed by you, perhaps?

True.

Oh, they're all constructed by me.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

They're gorgeous.

I brought them to some art fairs, having them in mind to sell these, but everyone who came and liked them also said,

well, if you caught me in the 70s,

I might buy it, but no one, I don't wear bolo ties anymore.

No one I know, my parents don't.

And so that's my idea for wall bolos to turn these into something that someone who liked the look could mount on a wall rather than wearing.

Sure.

Well, look, they're absolutely lovely, Jerome.

And I'll tell you what, if this were 1988, I definitely would buy a wall full of bolo ties.

But they're too special to buy.

I think they look good good arranged here in your TARDIS.

They're very special.

You have to wait till you die and transfer them to the Smithsonian.

Yeah, I think that might be the case, yes.

I mean, what are some of the materials you're using?

I'm looking at this array here in exhibit H because exhibit I is

spillover bolo ties that work that go into the workspace.

So I don't think we needed a separate exhibit moment for that.

Well, the materials are

stones,

usually as the base, some kind of flat stone, and then a more colorful rounded stone,

a stone made out of beads, and then wirework.

And

the

weights at the end of the cords, I made out of

copper or aluminum pipe that I

you know, shaped and decorated.

Gorgeous.

Yeah.

If the, if our listener is imagining a more traditional bolo tie, like think of them as being a kind of, the aesthetic is closer to like a late 80s, 1990 postmodern jewelry kind of thing.

Although I'm sure I say that only for

the convenience of our listeners to imagine them, not to describe what is in our littergund's mind.

I think that's indescribable.

I mean, you know, did you really want to sell these

or no?

I did want to sell them,

but that was just on my side.

The world was not ready or willing to buy them.

Okay.

You're still open to some offers.

I am, sure.

All right.

If Lyle Lovett rolled through right now, what would it take to take these Bolo ties home?

One and all.

I want two prices.

One price for just one and a price for all of them.

Lyle Lovett's here.

He's got all that Lovett money.

He could have them all for $5,000.

$5,000.

That's a very fair price.

That strikes me as very fair.

And there are 280 of them?

280.

Can you do that math, anybody?

I mean, you know, what's that per bolo?

$15, $20?

That's a bargain for Love It.

What about this one with the blue in the lower right-hand corner?

This blue semi-precious gemstone or whatever it is.

What kind of stone is that?

So this polished, bright blue stone?

It is polished.

Yeah, it's polished.

And

I think that might be a lapis lazuli

polished.

Yeah.

And, you know, if they're going individually, I'd say more like

that would be like $80.

What?

Okay.

All right.

Yeah.

Joel Mann, I just sent a picture of this one to you.

I was thinking about getting it for you as a gift, but now it's 80 bucks.

It's money that I could be donating to WERU.org.

Wow, that's nice.

Yeah.

Well, you know, if you get the whole package, it's more like $20 a piece.

You're right.

The bargain really here is buying $5,000 worth of bolitis.

Look, Jerome, I'm not an American picker.

I'm not one of these guys who's going to roll into town and try to take you for a ride and all the stuff you have in your outbuilding, get it for cheap because I'm going to resell it at my antique store or whatever.

So dudes can hang it in their man cave.

Next to their oil and gas collectibles.

Put a circle around that lapis lazuli one.

I'm thinking about it as a gift for Joel Mann here in Maine.

Would you do $75?

I'm going to stick with 80.

It's 80.

Whoa.

All right.

You know what?

I'll think it over.

No, John doesn't have Love It money.

Yeah, but he's only going for one.

Okay.

I think I've got a lot to think about.

I think I'm almost ready to go into Mitartist and make my verdict, but let's

try to land this time and relative dimensions and space vehicle back on Earth for a moment and get back to the case, Jerome.

Catherine has said she does not feel like she wants to sign her work.

She feels that her footprints on the stars is essentially her mark upon the universe that is contained within your outbuilding.

You do not accept this.

Why is it important to you that she sign her beautiful work?

Well,

she only came up with the idea that the shoe print would be her signature after I asked her to correct the shoe prints and also asked her to sign each panel.

This is only one panel and

the shoe prints are kind of in the middle, not on a corner.

And you don't like the shoe prints.

You wanted to fix them, right?

Well, I would like it fixed.

And also,

You know, if she had from the outset said, the way I'm going to sign these panels is with a shoe print

in each corner, you know, on one corner of each of the panels.

I would have gone with that, but that's not how it went.

This was something she thought of only

after I said correct the shoe prints.

And as far as that being an okay signature, you know what I go to, I go to the bank, I'm going to deposit a check in my account, and And they say, well, you need to sign the back.

And I say, hold on, take off one of my shoes, ink it up, and stamp the back.

They're not going to accept that.

I don't know.

That feels like a pretty Jerome thing to do, honestly.

Yeah, but the bank wouldn't go for it.

This is what I'm saying.

And, you know, it's one thing she doesn't sign her theater art.

I understand that.

But this is a private commission I made to her for my private space.

A couple of quick questions.

Did you pay her?

Yes.

Okay.

You paid her earth money, regular old earth money?

Yes, earth money.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

I'll leave it to her to say how much if she wants to.

No,

it's not important.

I hope you didn't pay her in bolo ties.

She wouldn't go for that.

I know.

Those things are worth 80 bucks a piece.

That's as good as cash.

I know.

She wouldn't go for it.

Take those to the bank.

They'll cash them right away.

Hottest new cryptocurrency around.

Jerome's bolo ties.

Bring your bolas down to the Bureau de Change.

Can I ask a question?

Yeah, sure.

To Jerome, do you sign your work?

My bigger work, yes.

The frolics are signed, yes.

Is the vacuum of spacebot signed?

No, but if someone wanted to buy it from me, I would sign it.

How much are you charging for the vacuum of space bot?

Oh, that is

350.

That's nothing.

That's nothing to Lil Lovitt.

This guy passes out three.

He's got that old country money.

All right.

Do you want her to sign it because she's your friend and you want her to acknowledge her participation in this huge art project you have going on?

Or do you want it to sign it because you think it might be valuable someday and you might, some American picker might come through and be like sorry I don't know the provenance of this Hubble Hubble painting I'm I can only give you seven dollars for it but if it were signed Catherine it'd be like oh okay yeah I'll take this for $5,000 what's going on here well I want them signed because she is my friend she's a wonderful artist and these are wonderful pieces of art they're not a theater set they are pieces of art i commissioned she executed.

Got it.

Okay.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my personal favorite TARDIS control room, the wood-paneled one that Tom Baker, the fourth doctor, traveled around in for a while.

And I will mull on this for a moment, and then I will come back to your reality and render my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jerome, how are you feeling about your chances in this case?

Oh, I'm loving it.

I'm loving it.

Yeah, well,

Lovett dough.

You're not sweating it anymore.

It's not clear in my mind how it's going to go.

Jerome, let's say Lovett walks up to you right now.

He wants to buy those panels.

What are you charging him for them?

Oh, they're not going.

That's not a sell item.

Yeah.

He can talk to my estate once I'm gone.

Catherine made the

oh, my dear heart gesture as he said that.

catherine how are you feeling about your chances uh i think um

that i'm definitely gonna win this case i mean of course that nobody can make me do anything i don't want it to i'm the artist

I don't even, honestly, I don't even sign.

I'm not even that great about signing my personal work.

Like, I just don't, I don't know.

But I guess if it's ordered that I have to, then I certainly will.

But,

you know, it's, it's, I don't, I don't know that there are going to be any collectors out there that are going to be searching for my super valuable work.

It's not my aspiration to be that guy anyway.

Well, this we'll see what happens when Jerome dies and they find that garage, you know, once it's headed to the Smithsonian, anything goes.

Sure.

I'm honestly just proud to be a collaborator in this in this amazing work of art that jerome did really catherine if it weren't such a wonderful opportunity for sophistry and an opportunity for you to claim that it's your signature would you repair the footprints

i would

um if forced but i would

You've seen the space.

Do you really think anybody's going to be looking at a shoe print in there?

Honestly,

Jerome is pointing to himself.

It's bothering Jerome.

If he really wants me to fix it, I will, but only if the judge orders it.

Jerome, what are you watching on this television in here anyway?

You just hanging out watching This Is Us or whatever?

I have a

set of Rogers and Hammerstein musicals.

I have, you know,

the

Worcester and Jeeves BBC series.

Those are really good.

Do you find that the quality of the guest actors on that really varies wildly?

Like sometimes you'll be like, this person's fantastic.

And sometimes you're like, that's supposed to be an American accent?

No, I don't notice that.

Okay.

That's kind of how I feel.

I've always focused on Worcester and Jeeves.

That's it.

That's me.

They're perfect.

No complaints.

They're perfect.

As good as it gets.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Look, I've been a Huvian for a long time.

I love Doctor Who.

Anybody who references the TARDIS is going to be a friend of mine.

It's very, very rare that I have encountered a Time Lord.

Don't think I've met many of them.

And by Time Lord, I mean I'm talking about a Gallifreyan, a time-traveling agent of chaos that

slips between dimensions and disrupts everybody's sense of what is real and what is not real, much like all of the various doctors who.

But

I'm feeling like I know that you are a human of Earth, Jerome.

I know that you're not a space-traveling, time-traveling alien.

I know this building

is an outbuilding in New Albany, Indiana,

and it is not a portal through time and space, despite the beautiful

the beautiful and evocative portraits of space that Catherine has provided for you.

But there is something very destabilizing about talking to you because just listening to you say

I just thought to myself when Jesse, when I heard Jesse ask you, what do you watch on TV?

And you're like, Rogers and Hammerstein musicals, oh, and Wooster and Jeeves.

I'm just like, everything that Jerome says

is a complete 180-degree surprise

that automatically just becomes the most unsurprising thing about him.

Like, it's just,

oh, right.

Of course, like, what?

Oh, yeah, of course.

Of course.

This guy makes

Driftwood alternate universe Daleks that are fun and signs them even though they're not his IP.

And also

is rocking and musicals.

He is a Zen meditator

who nonetheless puts a tremendous amount of material value on these bolo ties.

And

unlike my very,

very, very, you know, I won't even say ninth grade, like seventh and a half grade understanding of both large and small vehicles and Buddhism, there's a lot of rigidity

in Jerome's point of view regarding these tapestries, these drops, these paintings that Catherine made.

They are interpretations of the cosmos that now bear not the fingerprints, but the footprints of their creator.

This is what religions are based on.

Total inconsequential mistakes.

in the landscape that we ascribe special meaning to, the special authorship of some unknown creator, those footprints are the best signature you could ever have.

And I remain angry at you, Catherine, for stealing that from me, stealing that idea from me, even though you obviously had it before I did.

Long before I could ever reach this verdict.

That is the idea that this is something that Catherine needs to repair in the painting that she made for you.

I mean,

you live in a TARDIS, dude.

Can you go with the flow a little bit?

Just let it bend like a reed in the wind for a second here?

You are creating an installation of wild, beautiful chaos.

And you're like looking at the footprints of your friend going, she needs to come in here and fix it.

And by the way, why don't you sign your darn artwork?

In case I need to sell it someday.

Catherine is right.

I can't make her do that.

She's the artist.

Tough.

You don't buy a signature when when you commission artwork.

You buy the artwork.

And she has signed it in her own way.

And let the record of this podcast show any future American pickers

that this is a certificate of authenticity.

I have photos that I am looking at right now of Catherine not only painting these drop cloths, but stepping all over them.

I'm sure a forensic photography expert could probably match these footprints to the ones that are on Jerome's wall.

And while I am not an expert in the field of cosmic drop cloths, we are here at the Roadshow say these are absolutely authentic.

And don't let anyone take them off you, Jerome, for anything less than their appraised value of $5,000,

roughly the value of 280 bolo ties.

Now, before I go,

what if we do the lapis-lazuli bolo tie, and there's one to its left that kind of looks like a tiger's eye bolo tie?

What if we do the pair of them for 150 bucks?

Would you do that for me?

160.

No, you're not giving me anything here.

You have to understand, I'm looking at my profit.

Negotiating works.

You want it

80 for one,

$5,000 for

$280,000, $80 for one.

You wouldn't take $75,000 for one.

I'm offering you $155 for the both.

That's $5 off for me.

Okay.

We have a deal with that?

Okay.

Fantastic.

Yeah.

Guess what, Joel?

I'm getting a bowl.

You're getting a bolo tie.

And guess what, Lyle Lovett?

Lyle Lovett, if you're listening, you're getting a bolo tie.

You came to my event.

He's listening.

Yeah, he came to my event.

Given that you're listening.

One of the sweet.

Have you interviewed Lyle Lovett on Bullseye, Jesse Thorne?

No, I'd love to interview Lyle Lovett.

And we wouldn't just talk about Bolo.

A lot of people think that if Lyle Lovett came on my NPR show, Bullseye, we'd just talk bolos, but we'd probably talk about music and stuff, too.

Lyle Lovett as you may know from my book, Medallion Status, True Stories from Secret Rooms, is the human locus of one of the most intense cosmic coincidences I've ever experienced.

And I am sending him that bolo tie.

I'm sending you a bolo tie.

You get a bolo tie, you get a bolo tie, No one else gets a bolo tie.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Exterminate.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jerome, you leave this case

a poorer but richer man.

How are you feeling?

Yeah, kind of poorly.

Wow, somebody really stole some cushions from your Zen center, huh?

They did, man.

They came in and they left footprints and just got off with the goods.

Catherine, how are you feeling?

I'm ecstatic.

I love Jerome so much.

I'm happy to be right, though, in this case.

You know what it says in the throne of the third heaven of the Nations Millennium General Assembly?

It's this huge, spectacular tableau, an altar

surrounded by kind of tables and things like that.

And

in big letters, it says, fear not.

And I think you guys have created a space that is similar in its awesomeness.

And by that, I mean its ability to create awe.

So congratulations to both of you.

It's an amazing thing that the two of you have created as artistic collaborators.

May I echo that as well?

And then just very quickly,

a quick question for Jerome before we go.

Joe Bird and the Field Hippies or Ultimate Spinach?

Only in E minor.

Thanks, Jerome.

I got to go take a walk.

I don't know what's happening.

I got to go.

Just finish the rest without me, Jesse.

Do swift justice without me.

I'm wandering around the radio station for a while.

Catherine, Jerome, have fun on your journey through the many dimensions.

And thanks for joining us on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In just a second, we'll dispense some Swift Justice.

First, our thanks to Elise O'Neill for naming this week's episode Hubble Jeopardy.

You can name a future episode like Judge Sean Hodgman on Facebook.

We put out calls for submissions there.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets.

Hashtag JJ H O

and check out the maximum fund subreddit to discuss this episode.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff.

Our engineer in Maine is Joel Mann, Program and Operations Manager at WERU Community Radio in Orland, Maine.

You can listen to WERU at weru.org.

Joel is also on Instagram.

His handle is the main man, M-A-I-N-E-M-A-N-N.

This week's episode, also recorded by Catherine's husband, Joel.

This episode edited by Valerie Moffat and our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Benjamin asks, my partner calls the remote control the machine.

I contend it's not a machine.

What say you, Judge Hodgman?

Only an E-minor.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJHO

or email Hodgman at maximumfun.org.

That's serious business, folks.

We need your cases.

Maximumfund.org/slash JJ H O or email Hodgman at maximum fun.org.

Put your phone number in there so Jen can give you a call if we if we want to talk to you about your case.

Uh tell us if you've got home recording equipment of any kind, a mic on your computer, that kind of thing.

Uh, no case is too small.

Clearly, clearly, obviously, no case is too small.

Obviously, yeah, we'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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