The Full Micky

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
We're in chambers this week, clearing the docket. And with me, as always,

is the main man

with one N at the end.

Judge John Hodgman. I thought you were introducing Joel Mann.

He's the main man with two N's at the end. Main Man N.

J-O-E-L-M-A double-N, Joel Mann on the air at W-E-R-U in East Orland, Maine. Listener supported, volunteer-powered, a voice of many voices broadcasting from our solar-powered studios in East Orland.

Thanks for leaving this pledge drive material on the table. Joel, how are you? Very good.
Joel? John. Jesse? John.
Jennifer. John.
I thought we had a real problem.

I thought we had a real problem on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, Jesse. You know why? Why? No disputes.
No disputes around. Gosh, I mean, I mean, this whole show runs on disputes, John.

It's the engine of the show. Look, there are...

It's like a car. It's like the engine of a car is an engine.
The engine of this show is disputes. Yeah.

There are a lot of podcasts you go to where four people whose names start with J might be talking to each other about nothing,

rollicking through a chat. But if you want to dock it, you need disputes.
Those both start with D.

And I was getting D nothing over the wire through the transom,

wherever the disputes come from. Because you know what happens, Jesse? They come from a form, maximumfund.org/slash J J H O.
They come from a form, and I was getting nothing. And I was concerned.

Jennifer, I wrote to you about this, right? Yeah.

I wrote to you, and I said, maybe no one's having disputes anymore. Yeah.
Maybe this is it, Francis Fukuyama, end of history. All disputes settled.
What are we going to do?

I, too, was concerned it was a Francis Fukuyama situation. Me too.

I know you were. What about you, Joel?

I have no idea what you're talking about. Right.
But then

Jennifer Marmer spoke to some of the wizards there at Maximum Fun Headquarters, and we realized there was something wrong with the form.

And all of a sudden...

All of a sudden, I would say, what, about 200

submitted disputes that have been lost in the form limbo came through. At least.
And you would think that would be a nightmare, but it was a beautiful dream for me.

Because now I know the show can go on.

The show must go on.

But while that form was hung up, I just got to say, people could still reach me. The form for submitting your disputes.
And we need disputes for the show to work. So please.
Look to your left.

Look to your right. You got a beef with one of those people.
Write in. Maximumfund.org slash JJHO.
You can write me at hodgman at maximumfund.org. I do get those emails.

When the form is down, that's where I get those emails.

But apparently, that email address is primarily reserved now for very, very long letters from guys commenting on episodes from five to six years ago. That's pretty much what that email address is for.

Joel, remember that letter I got from Ray? Yes, I do. I forwarded it to to you.

John, this was 3,000 words long.

This is why Ray didn't get into the college of his choice. Yeah, he overwrote a little bit.
500-word limit. He was taking you to task because of your love for Joe Bird and the Field Hippies.

Did you read it finally? A little bit of it.

I got the gist of it.

The gist,

if you didn't know, is Ultimate Spinach is a better band than Joe Bird and the Field Hippies. Or Moby Grape or The Electric Prune.
But the United States of America is best of them all. Yes.

Are you sure those aren't flavors of those like icy pops that come in the little plastic bag? The kind they give you for free at the rec center.

Yeah.

Ray also is mad at you, Joel, because you recommended an ultimate spinach song to me. Funky Freak Parade.
Yeah, it's funny free parade. Funny freak parade.
Sorry. I was going through a lot.

Oh, now Ray's writing another letter all of a sudden. Ray, we've mentioned your letter quite a few times now on the podcast.
It's truly a monument, and I appreciate it.

And maybe someday, maybe at the next Max Fun Drive, as a premium, I will read the entire letter. It will take a long time.

I'm not putting it at the end of the episode, but maybe down the road we'll read it. Meanwhile, Joel, speaking of keeping it short, you always keep it terse.

You told half of a story about Mickey Dolans recently, and then later you told me there was more to it. Save it.
Save it. We'll do it later in the episode.
We have justice to dispense now.

3,000 words. Here's a case from

3,013. You know, I prefer to read, I'm a real like print nut.
I don't like reading electronics stuff.

So I took it down to Kinko's to have them print it out. They said they didn't have enough pieces of paper.

They ran out of paper at Kinko's. They didn't have enough paper at the Kinko's.

The defunct print shop, Kinkos.

Probably why they're out of paper. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jesse, I just want to say there are a lot of reasons that I love you.

Personal reasons and professional. Yeah.
In terms of sheer comedy, very few, very, I mean, it's not a competition, but you win

because you said they ran out of pieces of paper. That's one of the greatest series of words I've ever heard in my life.
Good job. Thank you.

Here's a case from Sally in Sequim, Washington. My wonderful, amazing mother worked a low-income job her whole life so that she could support and be there for me.

When she retired, she moved into the garage that we converted to her retirement cottage. She is such a help, watches the kids, does laundry, supervises chores, and more.

But she insists on paying rent. We have tried to turn it down, but she just leaves it on my desk.

Mom works a few hours a week doing in-home care and volunteering for hospice because she is truly an angel on earth. We want her to use her money to do things that are for her.

Please help us convince her to let us support her the way she has always supported me.

Wow.

First of all, Sally, good job. Everyone's doing the right thing.
in this dispute. This is like a zero monster dispute.
Yeah, love it. Mom's doing great.
Sally, you're letting your mom

live in your garage. Good job on converting it into a retirement cottage instead of just making up a cot for her.
Oh, John. Arthur Fonzarelli's stuff.

John, you said it was a no-monster dispute, but I missed this line at the end. Please help us convince her to let us support her the way she has always supported me.
P.S.

Every month at the full moon, and I can't read the last part, but I'm concerned.

Get worried about Wolfmans.

Just to be clear, that's a reference to Wolfman's.

No other monster. Just Wolf Mans.

Jesse,

if you had a parent living in your garage who was helping you out and they were slipping money on your desk and you were like, ma, pa, whoever it is, Uncle Joe, legal guardian Joel Mann, whoever it is,

who raised you and helped you. You take this money back and they said no, what would you do? Well, first of all, I don't have a garage, so I dispute the premise of your question.

However, if we assume that I had a garage.

You have your mom living in a carport? My...

No walls. My mother-in-law, Beth, is

a caretaker. She's a professional caretaker.
She's an MFT, marriage and family therapist.

And she is a family caretaker. She's the person that her family relies on, both her brothers and and sisters,

her parents when they were with us, and her children.

Everyone relies on Beth as a caretaker.

And Beth has given an extraordinary amount to my family,

myself and my wife, and my children, especially as things have been very, very difficult for us over the past year and a half.

And I have to say that while I enjoy finding creative ways to thank her

and make her life better,

if she were living in my garage and contributing in the many ways that I'm sure she would if she did live in my garage, and

she wanted to pay rent, I would allow her to do so.

And

the reason is

that

it is a matter of great pride to her and great comfort to her and

great joy to her to take care of others

and to be responsible for herself.

And I wouldn't want to take that away from her.

Right.

You say Beth is involved in MFT, marriage, and family therapy? Yeah, that's correct. I'm going to add a letter, MFTB.
You know why? Why is that? Beth is mother-friending the best.

There's no doubt about that with

Beth rules.

And

it sounds like

Sally's mom is pretty amazing.

But I get, and I understand, Sally, why

you feel like, mom, you're doing all this for us. You don't have to give us money, but for

Sally's mom,

it's a point of pride and dignity. People feel better

when they can support themselves.

Just like it is a great gift for you, Sally,

that first time you were able to take your mom out to dinner and pay for it. And boy, I hope you've done that in your life so far.
If not, you're a little behind, but you'll get there.

It's a great, it's a great and wonderful gift. But equally, it is important to Sally's mom to be able to make this gesture of saying, I am still a living, relevant person who can support herself.

Now, my mom is no longer living, but if she were living in our garage and helping to take care of our kids, it would be weird because our kids are basically grown.

But let's just say, for sake of argument, she were offering all the help Sally's mom was, and my mom was paying rent. I'd take that money, and you know what I'd do with it? What would you do, John?

I'd buy cigarettes and drugs, illegal drugs, illegal drugs, just spending time. Thanks, mom.

Drugs. Later for you, chicken.
Chicko party.

Thanks for the stacks. this is where your rent is going mom

no of course not i never did drugs when i was a kid i don't do drugs now don't smoke cigarettes either don't do drugs everybody sally don't do drugs don't take your mom's money and do drugs sally what suddenly you are a monster but if you want to do something that honors your mom

You can take that money, you can put it in a little account, save it for your kids. You could donate it to the hospice,

or you could give it to your local freeform community radio station, WERU, or whatever.

Something that's meaningful to you.

Pay that money forward, as the old movie says. You don't have to keep it.
You don't have to keep it and spend it on yourself, but honor your mom by taking her money.

You know, money is dehumanizing and the root of a lot evil. But there is something

that is incredibly important about about being generous.

And one of the only things money is good for is an expression of generosity. To have enough resources in your life that you may be generous is a wonderful thing.

So accept it when it's offered to you and offer it when you are able to offer it yourself.

Here's something from Amory in Lewiston, Maine. Please help my girlfriend and I settle a bet.
Are chocolate-covered pretzels a candy or a snack? I say they're candy.

Chocolate is indisputably a candy, and chocolate-covered pretzels are often sold in candy stores.

My girlfriend says they're a snack because they're sold with other snacks, like chips and nuts, at grocery stores.

She also argues that they sell ice cream at candy stores, and you wouldn't call ice cream a candy.

Jesse, as you know, we no longer do is XOY style food disputes. Yeah, they're too popular.
Oh, should we do them? I don't know. We ought to do something.

I mean, we still get a lot of them. Yeah.

We settled his X a Y food disputes a couple of years ago when we worked through all the remaining ones in our docket. And then I explained exactly why a hot dog is not a sandwich.

And you can listen to it at bit.ly slash JJ hot dog, J J H O T D O G. I think it's all capital letters.
But I will allow this one because I'm interested in it.

But also, Emery is writing from Lewiston, Maine. Joel, what's the poop on Lewiston? It's right next to Auburn.
Right next to Auburn.

The Lewiston-Auburn Metropolitan District. And what do they call it for short? LA.
L.A.

True story.

It's also the home. I've never been to Lewiston, which is sad for me because it's actually kind of an ancestral home place for the Hodgman family.

A bunch of Hodgmans left Townsend Mass, went up to Lewiston for a while, opened a store, said, this is terrible, let's go home. And they did.
But some of them stuck around.

There is famously, and I see this on Instagram every year, a Hodgman's Frozen Custard stand on the Lewiston Road in New Gloucester, Maine, which is just south of Lewis.

You ever have that Hodgman's frozen custard? Joel? No. No, me neither.
I support them. I support them, but I don't want any frozen custard.
And it's the home of the Patrick Dempsey Dempsey Challenge.

And it is traditionally one of the most francophonic communities in the USA. A lot of French speakers of Canadian ancestry are there.

And since the early 2000s, the home of the thriving Somali-American community that despite being met with some predictable racism once

a bunch of Somali families moved there, refugees from Somalia, particularly of the Bantu ethnic minority.

And some of that racism was then re-stoked, shall we say, recently, by various people. Nonetheless, that community has reinvigorated downtown Lewiston.

Shout out to Safia Khalid, Democratic organizer, co-chair of the 2020 Sanders campaign in Maine, and now 25-year-old, first-time member of the Lewiston City Council as of 2019. It's a cool town.

Just want to talk about Lewiston for a sec. L.A.

I love L.A.

Jesse, is a chocolate-covered pretzel snack or a candy? I'm inclined to call it a snack. Yeah, it's a snack.
It's a snack. You know why, Emery?

Which side of this was Emery on? I don't even remember now. I'm so up in my Lewiston facts.
Emery says they're candy. Yeah, no, wrong.

No part of it is candy. Pretzel is not candy.
It's pretzel. Chocolate is not candy.
Is it an integral part of a candy bar? Sure it is. But candy is cooked sugar.
Chocolate is a different thing.

Chocolate is chocolate. Caramel is candy.
I'm even going to say nougat is candy.

You like a Three Musketeers bar? Yeah, but you know what? I just ate a take-five bar. That's my top bar.
That's your top one?

Yeah, my colleague Christian has some on his desk, so I steal one whenever I come into the office.

I should say that Christian consents to that. Jesse's not just a monster boss.

I was just going to say, Jesse Thorne, gentleman bully.

I'm sure Christian consents to it. But

when you grab that take five bar off his desk, do you just start humming Dave Rubeck's take five to yourself?

But chocolate is not. Chocolate is its own thing.
And is chocolate a snack?

Yes. And here I am talking as someone who just dislikes sweets.
For the reason I've said a million times, I'm not going to say it again.

Because one time I had the greatest snack in the world, and it was chocolate when I was 19 years old. And I visited Buenos Aires, Argentina, and I met another American there named Meredith.

We were taking a walk-a long, long walk through one of the beautifulest cities in the world, full of incredible food and chocolate.

And she had some of the like darkest, bitterest chocolate I've ever seen. She said, This is my snack.
And I said, I want some. And it was the greatest snack I've ever had.

That's why they put it into uh trail mixes, right, Jesse? Yeah, just like banana chips. Oh,

oh,

stale bananas there.

Anyway, chocolate-covered pretzels are a good snack.

You can even get some chocolate-covered gluten-free pretzels. And I don't care for the gluten-free imitation products that much, but those taste very good.
I like a yogurt-covered pretzel.

A yogurt-covered. That's a snack.

Joel Mann, you're a snack.

We're going to take a quick break to hear from this week's partner.

We'll be back with the full Mickey Dolan story from Joel, plus more cases to clear from the docket on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join. And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Well, you know that the pros love to use Made In because it's pro quality cookware, tableware, glassware, everythingware.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Aura Frames. Now, John, as we sit here and discuss this right now.

Right.

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No,

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Honestly, I'm thinking about getting an Aura frame right now just dedicated to pictures of your dogs. Yeah, I think that's a good call.

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Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're clearing the docket this week.
Jesse, you remember when we were talking about Tom Sharpling auditioning for the monkeys?

Yeah, the new monkeys, yeah. Yeah, the new monkeys, part of his great new book, It Never Ends.
Wonderful book. Guest on Bullseye.
Very, very moving interview with Tom Sharpling on Bullseye.

Moving and funny. I confess that I have not listened to it, and I must.
Coming up? I must. Coming up, we talk a lot about some important feelings, and then at the end,

because I'm worried it's too intense and sad, I just ask him to talk about why he thinks C-3PO is the worst character in all fiction.

Tune in to Bullseye NPR.

Sharpling has his own Mickey Dolan story, but Joel, you mentioned, we were talking about how much I love the monkeys, and you mentioned you had met Mickey Dolans, correct? That's correct.

What part of the story, how much of the story did you tell? All of it or some of it? Just some of it. Tell me the sum of it again.

Well, it was on 495 down Massachusetts and pulled into a rest area, and there's the big monkeys bus. Right.
So I, you know, when you go to a rest area, you usually go for a reason.

So I went into the men's room and.

Wait, wait. Tell me the version you told before.
Were you just walk in with him? Yeah, we walk in together into the restroom, Mickey Dolans and I. Right.
And that's where the story ended. Right.

Last time, but it didn't end there, did it?

So we both go into the men's room and we're standing where guys stand when they go into the men's room. Right, urinals.
Yes. Yeah,

it's not a child's podcast. Also, children know what urinals are.
They know what pee-pee and poo-poo are. They often use urinals.
Yeah, they can handle this. I'm a conservative guy.
What can I say?

Right, you're a snag. So anyway, I look over at this guy and I say, hey, you're Mickey Dolance, aren't you? And he goes, yeah, I am.

Side by side of the urinal. Right.
End of story. It's a great story.
Yeah.

Once when I was in college, I was at the urinal next to the famed Shakespeare literary theorist Harold Bloom, and I couldn't go. I was so intimidated.

You were worried about whether or not you would be included in the Western canon. Yeah.

Didn't want to ruin my chances that the areas of my expertise wouldn't be added to his list of formative Western works.

Joel,

I just wanted to tell that story because the listeners deserve the full Mickey. They got the full Mickey.

I love the fact that Mickey Dolins was more friendly at you at a rest area, standing next to someone at a urinal, being asked, are you Mickey Dolans? Which, by the way, Joel, you shouldn't have done.

More friendly to you than he was to Tom Sharpling at the US Open. Read the book.
But I also love that you withheld the pee-pee part of the story because you are so respectful of our listeners.

I think they can handle it. Well, I think it's a family show is what I thought of it.

It's a family-tolerant show. Okay, I won't hold back anymore.
No, no, you can. Well, wait a minute.

At least go to the urine hole, Joel. Yeah.

Thank you, Joel. So what's going on back in the docket there, Jesse? Here's a case from Rick in Fortville, Indiana.
I'm a film fanatic. My wife and I tend to...

Throw it away. Throw it away.
I don't want it.

At least Rick didn't say he's a sine ass.

My wife and I tend to watch TV shows when we're together, and I'll typically watch films from the golden age on my own.

However, lately my wife has been willfully selecting great films to watch, but only when I'm not there or too busy to watch them with her. I think there's malicious intent involved.

It started when I was about to start working overtime, so she put charade on to watch by herself. She knows I'm a classic film buff.
Carrie Grant and Audrey Hepburn? Of course I'd want to watch.

I've also walked in on her attempting to watch films from Martin Scorsese, Gus Van Sandt, Alfred Hitchcock, all without me.

She denies it's intentional, but I don't believe her. If I'm around, she'll throw on something like Bio Dome or In the Army Now.

Poly Shore vehicles. I think Bio Dome is too, isn't it? Yeah, they're both Poly Shore.
Well, Bio Dome arguably is an early Tenacious D vehicle. Oh, okay.

First on-screen appearance of Tenacious D in the film Biodome.

I want restitution for crimes against cinema. Whoa.

Wow. Listen, you film fanatic.
This guy is whose fanaticism is showing.

Rick,

I feel you.

I feel you, because if I were trying to watch classic movies with my partner and then they were sneaking in charade, I'd be a little annoyed.

But then when she turned around and made you watch Biodome,

I don't know. This is some kind of love language.
I think we may need to hear this one in person, Jennifer. I kind of just want to know which Ernest movies are involved in this.

Like, is it just Ernest goes to jail or is it full-on Ernest's Scared Stupid? All the way, all the way to the end of the Ernest Quantum Universe.

When she puts on Dorphon Golf, that's when you know it's serious.

If Rick is representing this accurately, then Rick's wife and whole human being in her own right is playing some incredible mind games here. Because what I was going to say was,

hey, you know, you're a film fanatic. You lead with it.

And that puts a certain pressure on someone who's watching a movie with you.

Because if you're just a person who just wants to enjoy a movie or a TV show and you're sitting there with a film fanatic who maybe is pointing out things about the movie to you or is trying to educate you and what a movie is like, and you just want to watch the thing,

then yeah,

I could see your partner sneaking away to get a little Stanley Donan's charade on their own.

I later found out Rick has never seen charade, and that's fine. Charade's not that good.
Walter Mathow, amazing. Audrey Hepern, terrific.
Is a script by Peter Stone? Yes.

Did he write Taking a Pell in 123? Of course he did. But it's not that great a movie.
You're not missing that much, Rick. Just watch Hopscotch.
Watch Hopscotch. Hopscotch.
There you go.

And there are some classic movies, and I would argue most Hitchcocks, that you just want to watch by yourself when you're 12 years old, staying at your uncle's house over the holidays in Philadelphia with double ear infection.

And you can't do anything except lie on the couch and let your ears drain out.

Merry Christmas. One of the greatest holidays I've ever had.

Going down to Philadelphia, getting that double ear infection I got out of every family event, just rented all of the Hitchcocks and just lay on the couch with the full body horror of my ear infection draining out of my bursted eardrums and just soaking up all that classic cinema by myself.

Sometimes there are movies you just want to watch by yourself without your film fanatic husband.

But I'll tell you, Rick, your partner in life, if what you're saying is true and she's throwing that biodome at you and sneaking charade behind your back, I want to hear from them.

Put them on the schedule for a live hearing. See if we can get them live, Jennifer Marmor.
All right, I'll see what I can do. I'm going to do

a provisional ruling in favor of Rick, that she should not force biodome on him when she's hoarding the good stuff to herself. But I want to hear what's going on.

My wife and I have been watching Hacks. Sure, starring Gene Smart.
Everyone loves it. Yeah, Gene Smart's so good in it.
Oh, man, is she good in it?

It's a good show, but Gene Smart is next level good in the program. But it's what my wife and I have been watching together.

But, you know, sometimes my wife will be making the children's lunches for the next day. I'll just be kind of waiting to hang out with my wife.
I'll watch a movie. I've been watching McCabe and Mrs.

Miller, Robert Altman. Oh, wow.

Western. I don't get it.
I don't think I ever saw it.

I don't know. Why is Warren Beatty muttering so much? Well, it's an Altman movie.
Yeah. Why didn't Altman make any Walter Mathow movies? That's a mutter I want to watch.

Yeah, Altman was like, that guy mutters too much. Just a perfect mutterer.
I'll definitely make a movie,

a movie version of the childhood favorite Popeye in which none of the dialogue is audible. And Harry Nilson basically whispers the songs.
But Walter Mathow,

that's a bridge too far. Would have been a great Pappy.
Although I don't want to take away from Ray Walston, Pappy, Popeye's Pappy Pappy. That was an incredible performance.

I mean, you can probably guess my favorite Altman movie, A Prairie Home Companion. No, it's not.

It's MASH. Here's something from Rafa in New York.
My wife, Hannah, thinks it's okay to text people starting at 7 a.m. if they're close friends and starting at 8 a.m.
in all other cases.

I think it's rude to text anyone before 9 a.m. unless you've discussed it previously, with some exceptions.

Say you're both known early risers or you're both on the night shift. This came to a head recently when Hannah hired someone to help us with a task via a text at 8.15 a.m.
Who's right? Who's wrong?

Hey, some people live on the West Coast. You do, Jesse.
You do, Jennifer. And I'm going to tell you something.

I probably texted you guys too early many, many times over the years because there's a three-hour time difference. I might be up raring to go at 9 a.m.
Who's kidding? 10 a.m., 10.30 a.m. Raring to go.

Honestly, I don't start raring until about 11.30.

That's when I start hating myself for not getting going.

But able to go. Let's say able to go at 10 a.m.

That's still 7 a.m. your time.
And if I texted you at 10 a.m. my time, 7 a.m.
your time, I apologize.

And you know why I did that? Because I never read Rafa's letter. Rafa, I'm going to tell you something, Rafa, in New York City, New York.
Hannah, you really opened my eyes.

You made me much more conscious of the time that I am texting people. And I agree with you.
Hannah's texting too early.

Jesse, how often do you get a text too early in the morning from someone on the East Coast? Not an issue for me. Don't have very many friends.
Oh, also, you never sleep. That's That's true.

Sleep is the cousin of death. Wide awake, rare and to go at all time.

All rare, all the time. Do you agree with me or disagree with me, Ray Rafa?

I think it's a very reasonable expectation that unless there are special circumstances, you not text early or very late, unless you have a clear understanding of whether or not that person is awake.

Now, of course,

there are many people who set the do do not disturb on their phone when they go to sleep. There are others who have their phone in another room when they go to sleep.
Good sleep hygiene there.

Good sleep hygiene. For whom it would not be a concern.

But simply because for some people it is not a concern, because they are doing those things, does not make it polite to presume that someone would be one of those people.

This was covered by my middle school, which sent out a student roster with telephone numbers, but had a strict rule you weren't allowed to call anyone after nine. Oh, good going, middle school.

What your middle school understood, and that we've had difficulty keeping up with as a society, is that we're not meant to be on all the time. We are not meant to be available all the time.

And I think that

a lot of what we went through, except for the parts that were terrifying and tragic and awful and sad, a lot of what we went through over the past year and change

is a re-evaluating of what's okay and what's not okay. A lot of dumb stuff was revealed to not be okay,

such as minimum wage,

such as inequality of wealth and inequality of access to social services. And inequality of access to going to space on a rocket.
Yeah, that's right.

I'm sorry that you got snaked out of that opportunity to hit that blue origin flight this morning, Jesse. That would have been the best 75 seconds of my life

as I briefly met the dictionary definition of being in space.

Yeah. And there's also pros and cons to driving 30 minutes to two hours to be in a place with each other in order to do work.
There are pros, but there are cons and there are alternatives.

And similarly, you don't need to be available all the time. You're not built that way.
You're not supposed to be that way.

There is still an expectation, right or wrong, that a text message requires a quick reply, even in Maine, right, Joel?

Yes. Okay.

Can be a little faster next time when I ask you a question. See, Joel, Joel knows the way life ought to be.
Take your time. Respond when you're ready.
So yeah, don't text in the middle of the night.

Don't text too early. And also, hey, it goes both ways, West Coast.
I'm sorry if I've been texting you too early. How about you not set phone meetings at 5 p.m.
West Coast time? That's 8 p.m. my time.

You know that. You know that.
My day is done then. What are you doing, West Coast people? Stop it.
You know better. You're trying to watch Veronica's closet.
Yeah, that's my Veronica's Closet time.

Let's take a quick break when we come back. A case about hot dogs.

Hello. Hello, I'm calling on behalf behalf of the Beef and Dairy Network podcast.
Oh, no, I'm sorry.

It's a multi-award-winning podcast featuring guests such as Ted Danson, Nick Offerman, Josie Long.

I don't know what a Josie Long is, and anyway, I'm about to take my mother into town to see Phantom of the Opera at last. You are wasting my time, and even worse, my mother's time.

She only has so much time left. She's 98 years old.
She's only expected to live for another 20 or 30 years. Mother, get your shoes on.
Yes, the orthopaedic ones.

I don't want to have to carry you home again, do I? Right, well, if you were looking for a podcast. Mother, you're not wearing that, are are you? It's very revealing, Mother.

This is a musical theater, not a Parisian bordello. Simply go to maximum fun.org.
I'm reaching for my Samsung Galaxy 4 as we speak. Mother! Mother, not that hat!

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We have a case here from Athena in Tampa Bay, Florida.
I maintain that hot dogs are sausages.

And as such, I should be able to use them interchangeably in any meal in which you would otherwise use any other sausage. My husband Mark laughs at me and argues they are not interchangeable.

Hot dogs are salty tubes of processed meat, just like every other sausage, except hot dogs are blander. Use case.
Our kid hates every sausage.

By the way, I this truly like the transition to the phrase use case. I can only imagine Athena giving a PowerPoint presentation.

Use case. Our kid hates every sausage except hot dogs, so I've been known to give him hot dogs at breakfast when he refuses any other type of protein.

Or, the other day, I put a hot dog on a waffle to make a breakfast sandwich on my way out of the house.

I don't force Mark to use hot dogs in this way, and they aren't my first choice of quality sausage, but I would like an injunction on the ribbing I receive for using hot dogs and sausages interchangeably.

First of all, I would just like to say that one of the nice things and indeed similarities between hot dogs and breakfast sausages is that there are vegetarian equivalents of both and maybe even vegan.

I would have to double check that, but certainly vegetarian equivalents of both. that are essentially indistinguishable from the non-vegetarian version.

Like, I've been amazed at the vegetarian hot dogs that I've had, and I've been amazed at the Gime Lean brand,

soy-based breakfast sausage.

Terrific. And there's a reason for that, because as you point out, hot dogs are salty tubes of processed meat traditionally, but it can also be meat substitute, as are breakfast links.

They are salty tubes of protein that are seasoned in a specific way.

You can really emulate those things in a vegetarian option very easily because the sausage itself is essentially a vehicle for the spice and the flavoring that is used.

And in this case, Athena, the spice and the flavorings are very different.

A hot dog is smoked. It's got a smoky flavor to it.
A breakfast link, sagey.

Smoky on one hand, sagey on the other. They're different.

They are intrinsically different.

A hot dog is not a sandwich, nor is it a breakfast sausage. Now, if you've got nothing else at hand and your kids want to eat a hot dog of some kind in the morning for breakfast, that's fine.

But they are not interchangeable ingredients. If your kid hates every sausage you can except hot dogs, I hope that that will change in your kid's life.
But for now, go ahead.

Feed him a hot dog in the morning, but accept your ribbing. They're not the same.

Yeah, as someone with children with uh

opposing picky food habits

uh who doesn't want to cook four dinners every night um

i agree with you entirely that uh you feed your children what they're willing to eat uh and do your best to expand their palates over time that said i think it would be inhumane to ask mark not to at least gently rib athena for putting a hot dog in a waffle

i mean i actually i'm not against her doing it. I just think it's a funny idea.

I think it's kind of amazing. It's great.

I was just rereading that part of the letter because I was double-checking my hot dog and sausage lore on Wikipedia as you were reading.

I was like, oh, I forgot about the fact that Athena put a hot dog in a waffle.

I order no ribbing.

You've invented something incredible. I'm picturing Athena as a middle manager in a serious business.

and she walks into a big meeting in front of a bunch of people who work under her, and the big boss is sitting next to her. And the big boss says, what do you got there?

And she says, hot dog and a waffle.

I think right now, a menu development person for some big fast food chain is hearing hot dog on a waffle, and it's going to be announced on Twitter in about five seconds, and then it's going to to be covered on Doughboys, and everyone's going to make money but us.

You know what? I'm making an amendment to my scenario. Everything in this scenario is the same.
She sits down. She's got the employees.
The big boss is sitting behind her.

The big boss says to her, what do you got there?

And she says, breakfast sandwich.

Jennifer Marmor, remind me, did I reveal the secret of my new burger concept? I never will. I never will.
I'm not going to let it get out there like hot dog and a waffle.

But Jesse Thorne, I'll tell you off mic, I've got a new burger concept, and this can be a vegetarian burger.

Doesn't have to be a, doesn't have to be a, you know,

it's going to change everything. Joel, did I tell you my new burger concept? No, but I like the name waffle dog.
Waffle dog?

I like that as a name for a dog. Write that down.
Write that down, Athena, and mail it to yourself immediately. Retain the trademark on the waffle dog, both as a breakfast sandwich and a dog name.

Yeah.

But I'll tell you,

but I won't tell you the secret of my new burger concept because I really believe in it.

But I will say that just as there was a part of the Mickey Dolan story that Joel didn't tell initially, I just realized there's a big part of my Harold Bloom urinal story that I didn't tell.

I'll save that for someday down the road.

Tales from the urinal.

By the way,

you don't have to tell me about your burger concept. I already know it's put some Worcestershire sauce in there.
This burger concept.

All burger concepts are just put some Worcestershire sauce in there. No, Jesse, do you want to hear what it is? Yeah, I do.
All right. Jennifer Marmer bleep this out.
It's not just that. You put a

on and

a slice of.

Holy cow. Yeah.
So you put Worcestershire sauce in the burger? No, no, there's no Worcestershire sauce at all, Jesse.

Do we have any letters this week, John? Yes, of course we do. That's all I got this week.
I got no disputes, only letters.

And they're always a delight to read, especially when they're maybe one or 200 words long. Like this letter from Rick.
Dear Judge Sean Hodgman, just listened to the Deep Cuts docket clearing episode.

That's the one where we cleared the docket from about a decade ago. Stuff lingering in my mailbox.
And you mentioned the nostalgia of going to the clam box on Wollaston Beach in Quincy, Massachusetts.

I lived in Concord, Mass, for a couple of years in my youth, and I would go mackerel fishing off Plum Island with my father and brother. Boy, this is turning into a whole short story.

I had vivid food memories of fried clams in the clam box being a life-changing part of that experience. My daughter and her family now live in Brookline, Massachusetts.

That's one letter short of Brooklyn in my hometown, Brookline, Massachusetts, just a block and a half from my old stomping grounds of Redacted Elementary School.

On a visit to them, and to finish this longish story, don't worry, Rick, you're no Ray, you're doing great. I made my adult children make the trek to the clam box,

which we couldn't find initially. And then we had to stand in a long line to order, and we got way too many fried clams, only to have all of us moderately disappointed in the experience.

My entire family was annoyed at me for making them participate in the nostalgia that was my love of these fried clams. And we now refer to food memories as one of two options: clam box good

or actually good.

I've learned my lesson and Rayleigh, now recall your caution that nostalgia is a toxic impulse. Signed, Rick.
Good job, Rick. Clam box good or actually good.
It's an important thing.

Jesse, you ever take someone to a restaurant that you care a lot about that meant something to you in your past, and you realize as you're eating with them, it's not that great.

I'm terrified, absolutely terrified, that one day I'll walk into El Farolito in the Outer Mission, and I'll sit down with somebody who's not from San Francisco, and we'll eat a burrito, and they'll say, this is not that great.

Yeah, I know how you feel. You know, one time our colleague, Ben Partridge from Beef and Dairy Network.
Beef and Dairy Network, of course. This guy is an ice cream fanatic.

He loves magnum bars.

That's a very heavy ice cream bar. Yeah.
Everyone should listen to Beef and Dairy Network. It's an amazing, brilliant show.
Anyway, I just realized something. Ice cream is dairy.
He's an expert in it.

I know. He comes to visit Los Angeles.
He and I go to LACMA together. Just a couple of buds hanging out.
And I tell him. The Los Angeles County Museum of Art.
Yeah. So

I tell Ben Partridge, you and me, buddy, we're going to the Food for Less.

We're going to get some Itzits. Because you are.
I don't know. You're an ice cream nut.
This guy's an ice cream fanatic. He loves Magnum bars.
Yeah.

He's about ice cream the way that other Rick is about film. Yeah.
So we get these ice cream bars. We're sitting in my station wagon in the underground garage of this Food for Less.

Perfect ice cream eating context. You know what Ben Partridge says? I don't even want to know.
The ice cream's not that good. That's what he says.
It's about the total experience, Ben Partridge.

Oh, right. I'm Ben Partridge.
I'm from England. I love Magnum Bars.
I'm actually Welsh. Uncanny impersonation.
Go suck a lemon, Ben Partridge of the Beef and Dairy Network.

Possibly the best show on all of Maximum Fun. Yeah, his ancestry is Welsh.
He lives in England. They make the ice cream with lard.
I'm a right, good magnum eater.

This guy, Ben Partridge. You know, the other week I went back to New York from Maine because I had to work with David Reese on the Secret Project.
And before I went, I was so excited.

I had everybody I knew in town over to try this new burger concept. And I was really nervous because what if they didn't like it? What if they're like, it's fine? Do you know what they all said? What?

It's fine. Oh, no.

Yeah, they said no. They also said, no, it's good, which is the worst.
Yeah.

Even worse. I still believe in it.
Every great artist misunderstood in their time. I believe in this burger concept.
I'm Bing Partridge.

I'm from Worcestershire, which is why we all put Worcestershire in our burgers.

Jesse, is the docket clear?

Is the docket clear? The docket's clear. That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman.
This episode, edited by Val Moffat, and our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Our engineer in Maine is Joel Mann, program and operations manager at WERU Community Radio in Orland, Maine.

You can listen to WERU at weru.org, and you can follow Joel on Instagram at the main man, M-A-I-N-E-M-A-N-N.

You can follow John and me on Twitter at Jesse Thorne at Hodgman. We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to hashtag your judgejohnhodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, and check out the Maximum Fund subreddit to discuss this episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJ Ho or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org. We will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Oh, hey, surprise is me, Judge John Hodgman, post-credit sequence. Are you surprised? You shouldn't be.
I'm doing it pretty much all the time.

Well, remember that whole story I told you about standing a Ural next to the famous literary critic Harold Bloom when I was an undergraduate at Yale University, a four-year accredited college in Southern Connecticut, and about how I only told half the story.

Well, the rest of the story will wait

Because I'm, it's actually so embarrassing, I'm not sure that I'm going to be able to tell it. So stay tuned to a future judge, John Hodgman, and maybe I'll let this one go.

But in the meantime, thank you very much for listening. It's like when you saw Howard the Duck at the Interguardians of the Galaxy, like that's great, but that's really all we get.
That's all you get.

Howard the Duck, goodbye. MaximumFun.org.
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Audience supported.