A Donut of One's Own

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm guest bailiff Josh Gondelman filling in for Jesse Thorne.

We are in the chambers this week to clear the docket.

Please welcome the one-man judicial branch here to settle disagreements with his official stance, John Hodgman.

Well, it rhymes, Josh.

I kind of Hamilton rhymed it in the middle.

Oh, you know, Lynn will be very happy to hear that.

He's a listener to this show.

Hi, Lynn, if you're listening.

If you're not, I don't blame you.

There are a lot of podcasts.

this is one of them uh josh gonelman you have a you have a podcast right i sure do it's called make my day and it's a game show with one contestant each week so the contestant always wins uh very soon contestant always wins and very low stress i've been a guest on that podcast josh you've been a guest on this podcast yes just

some episodes ago

You were on as a friend of the court to help clear the docket back when I was rollicking along up there in Maine.

And you were in New York where you live.

I'm now back in New York.

We're joined in Los Angeles by producer Jennifer Marmer.

Hi, Jennifer.

Hi.

There we go.

You know,

we were chatting before we started the record, and it's always the worst thing to do because it's when the best, most exciting podcast material comes out before you hit record.

As Josh pointed out, it was pure.

It was pure.

It was not even podcast gold.

It was podcast Doge.

What's a gogel?

Yeah.

Well, you brought up that it was crypto, more valuable than gold, just by volume.

I don't know how you measure mass or volume of cryptocurrency.

No, no, it's all currency of the mind.

Is Doge a cryptocurrency?

It is.

That's the one with like a little corgi on it, I think.

We are into Ethereum here at J.J.

Ho.

Ethereum.

We have a recovered Ethereum miner among the listenership.

Anyway, Josh Kahneman,

you were a guest, a friend of the court, as I mentioned earlier.

And I don't know that you know this, but we do a lot of research in the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Yeah.

So every episode we do, after it comes out, we ask people to do surveys.

You know, when they're downloading it, we stick around for a 25 to 35 minute survey after listening to the podcast.

And I would say we have about 99% compliance.

Listeners definitely want to let us know how they feel.

Yeah.

And then they can fill out, you know, what did you think?

Describe in words, especially when we have a guest bill.

Describe in words, guest bill.

I'm going to tell tell you, I've got the results right here.

And you scored off the charts, Josh.

Wow.

Very, very popular.

I feel great about that.

Wait,

off the charts in the good direction.

In the good direction.

In the great direction.

Oh, good.

With Josh Donaman, the only direction is up, up, up.

Interestingly.

That was something that someone said, actually.

Up, up, up.

Is he okay?

Very energetic.

Weird.

Very energetic.

Yeah.

Almost unpleasantly so.

Full of energy.

Almost mysteriously so.

Okay.

Seemed to grind his teeth a lot.

I don't know what that is.

That's not true.

No, that's just referring to a little private joke that Josh Gondelman and I have.

He is not addicted to caffeine.

You know, he's just a very, he's a straight.

No, everyone said, extremely nice, very warm and engaging.

Made me feel great.

Nicer than the regular guy.

Should replace Judge John.

Wow.

Oh, this one says, Judge Josh Gondelman is easier to say.

That's not true.

Not true.

No, it's hard enough to say Judge John Hodgman to add Josh

Gondelman.

No,

unfamiliar name to most people.

More syllables.

That's not.

That's not

rude.

How dare you, Josh?

It's just rude of them to say that.

One of the greatest persons in comedy or any field, nice pep talker on Twitter, writer and co-executive producer of the amazing Deezus and Merrow.

Talk about names.

Talk about, those are big names.

Deezes and Merriman.

Big name.

Great names.

Big, big names.

If you're not watching that show, you should watch the show.

I mean,

ooh, most, I mean, incredible, incredible chemistry those two have.

If you are watching the show, you're not off the hook.

Keep watching it.

You don't, this isn't a shift change.

Right.

Stay watching it.

The show is off the hook.

You're on the hook to watch it.

Do they need someone to write headlines?

Deezes and Merrow?

I think that sounds pretty cool.

For the next season, it's going to be a poster of you, your face,

your face.

It says Jesus and Merrow.

And then it's like a quote implied in your voice that says,

the show is off the hook, but you're on the hook, dot, dot, dot, to watch it.

To watch it.

That's right.

With my face, especially, because it is definitely a face that sells podcasts for free.

Josh, thank you for joining us again to

be our guest bailiff.

Jesse's fine, everyone, but he's taking a week away.

Josh very nicely accepted our invitation to come in and guest bailiff.

and

we have a fair amount of chat.

We have a fair amount of, not chat, justice to dispense, do we not?

Yeah, lots of justice.

Well, let's get into it.

Here's a case from Kirsten.

Hello from Worcester.

Oh, Josh, you are a fellow Commonwealthian of Massachusetts, correct?

I certainly am by birth.

I'm wearing currently a Ben Affleck Dunkin' Donuts painted shirt.

The shirt is not painted, but it's based on a painting.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, a tremendous allegiance to Massachusetts.

Where again are you from in Massachusetts?

Were you reminding me?

From Stoneham, Massachusetts.

Stoneham, Massachusetts.

So you will agree with me, Worcester is terrible.

Well, look, I said that once on my podcast and immediately backtracked because the people of Worcester,

I feel like they'll hold the grudge.

Yeah, that's probably true.

That's probably true.

That's why when you take the, that's when you take the shortcut from I-90 to 495 via 295 through Worcester when you're driving north to Maine.

Everyone speeds really fast, and it's very scary because they don't want to.

No, Worcester's lovely.

Worcester's lovely.

You want to see someone mad.

You tell someone from Worcester, you refer to Worcester as Western Massachusetts.

Whoa.

You want to see someone mad, just go to Worcester.

I think that's pretty much.

It's Massachusetts doc here on the Judge John High School.

I'm just kidding.

That's with Judge John Gentleman.

You're the bester.

Come on.

Oh,

one of the great cities to know how to pronounce because

It does not spell correctly.

Yeah, the name holds secrets, which is how it's pronounced.

It's

famous for its polar soda, its shire sauce, and

everyone knows it as Mike Berbiglia City.

Worcester, Massachusetts.

That's what it says on the sign of the wind.

Mike Berbiglia City.

Would not surprise me in the least.

In any case, Kirsten lives there with her husband and she sent this in.

Go ahead, I apologize.

Hello from Worcester, says Kirsten.

I originally submitted this to you in 2019 for a live show at the Wilbur Theater.

Having heard your desperate pleas for cases recently, I thought I'd dig this one out.

There is a very busy intersection near our house and two possible shortcuts to avoid it.

Shortcut A is shorter, but more heavily traveled, so the odds of getting stuck behind other drivers is higher.

My husband, Chris, will always take shortcut B, which is slightly longer.

He argues that getting stuck behind drivers is a risk he's unwilling to take.

This has been a running argument for 20 years.

Please rule on which shortcut is the shortest.

Wow.

Okay, so I needed to evaluate these two routes.

So I asked Kirsten to describe them to me.

She sent me a map and labeled them.

Shortcut A is blue on the map.

This will be available on the Judge John Hodgman showpage at maximumfund.org and our Instagram account at judgejohnhodgman.

And she said, shortcut A is is blue on the map.

It is 0.2 miles and took 51 seconds.

Shortcut B

is yellow.

It is 0.4 miles and took 70.

I feel like this is an SAT question.

I will point out you did this to yourself.

I do everything to myself.

We could have just ruled on this on kind of the skeleton of the case, but you, a rigorous judge, requested an evidentiary exhibit.

Well, I love maps, but I didn't expect that I was going to have to settle a logic puzzle with a Worcester theme.

And what we're doing now is the hard part is we're turning a map into out loud words, which is not how they're meant to be.

Right.

So then after

she punished me with exactly what I asked for,

I decided to punish her and repunish myself

by describing the map.

out loud words.

Well,

I asked them, would they be willing to get in their car and drive both shortcuts so that you and I, Josh, could evaluate them?

So, Jennifer Marmor, Able Producer Jennifer Marmer, would you please share your screen so that we can watch Shortcut A?

Absolutely.

Oh, and I, George the Dog.

It's a real noisy day in my house right now.

Life goes on, I'm glad to say.

So, okay, here's Shortcut A.

Shortcut A.

Okay.

This is the first shortcut.

This is shortcut A.

This is the shorter shortcut.

And so this is

a very steep road.

There's cars parked on either side.

I don't know if you can tell.

This is New England, so of course the road is covered in potholes and patches.

It's a very steep hill.

Oh good, and this is a good example too, because there are two guys in front of us.

Whoa, Jennifer Marmer, could you pause it for a second?

First of all, I just, you know, I want this to last as long as possible.

It's incredible for an audio meeting.

Second of all, I just wanted to acknowledge a knowing nod from Josh Condeman when Kirsten pointed out that the roads are garbage in New England.

A lot of potholes.

Third of all, I got a little, as a natural-born rule follower, I got a little freaked out because I was pretty sure.

I really hope it's not Kirsten driving this car and videoing at the same time.

I also think that's a good idea.

I'm a little concerned that it is.

Yeah, Josh, what do you think?

Do you think she's videoing and?

I don't know.

I hope.

Let's say not.

I bet she found a place to

station the camera that's safe.

Yeah, which would be worse, her driving and videoing at the same time or the fact that she videoed in portrait mode?

I know you got to put it in landscape, Kirsten.

Kirsten, I'm just joshing you.

Oh, that could be a name of a podcast for you, Josh.

That's like my Bojack Horseman sitcom name.

That's right.

He had horsing around.

In this case, Josh is joshing, and I'm judging.

But I judge you well because I was, as a natural born runefaller, I was terrified just now.

I thought you were going to roll through that stop sign.

I also did.

I was very worried.

Yeah, right?

It was very, I mean, I didn't think this would be a suspenseful video.

And then Kirsten came to what my driver's ed instructor would have called an S-T-O-P stop.

What's an S-T-OP stop?

Does that stand for something, or is it just emphasize?

It is, you're supposed to be stopped long enough that you can go S-T-O-P and then keep going.

Oh, sudden terminus of progress.

It could be a gradual terminus of progress.

No, you want an S-T-O-P stop at a stop sign, everybody.

Trust me.

It does sound when I said it like an S-T-O-P stop is like a cheer that cheerleaders would do for the opposing team.

Like, oh no, you're beating us too badly.

S-T-O-P stop, stop, stop.

Now, look, you are the master of the pep talk on Twitter

and cheerleading is full of pep.

It's been a long time since I've been to a sporting event.

Is there anti-cheerleading?

I don't know.

Is there

gloomleading?

Like, if you are rooting against the other team?

I feel like they usually take the tack of like, instead of going like, hey, other team, stop kicking our butts so hard.

They would be like, hey, our team, maybe give it a little extra oomph.

All right, I think we invented another new thing, gloom leading.

That's what the you can't hear it.

You can't hear it, but that is what the cheerleaders in the Smells Like Teen Spirit music video are chanting.

Okay, Jennifer Marmor, play.

Keep going.

I can't wait to see what happens next.

Sound quality is terrific.

Okay, here comes another stop sign

And just nails it.

Fantastic.

Oh, see, and they're gone.

Oh, those cars in front of her disappeared.

And then, and so then occasionally here, there'll be some cars backed up.

And that's the end of shortcut one.

That's the end of shortcut one.

And

exactly per Kirsten's

reckoning, that took 51 seconds.

Now, Josh, I leave it up to you.

You've seen shortcut.

It's shortcut A, actually.

She called it shortcut A and shortcut one.

That is the shortcut she prefers.

Are you ready to watch shortcut B?

I am.

Or have you already come to a decision?

No, not yet.

I think it would be

prejudicial.

Dereliction of duty.

Right.

Okay.

To rule after just seeing a single shortcut.

Right.

Okay.

So let's roll.

This is shortcut B.

Shortcut B.

And oh, I have a note here that says

the maniacal laughing is their teenage daughter in the backseat, thinking that Kirsten and her husband are weird for doing this, and that I'm very happy to be a part of that.

I think that answers the question of whether Kirsten is recording herself.

I think that's true.

It could have been different times.

I don't know.

That's true.

Made me nervous.

Let's roll on B and see what happens.

All right.

Okay, we're approaching the signal from the same location.

So this is the starting point.

You'd go right there at the light for shortcut A, and now we're continuing on for shortcut B.

And and folding shortcut Black started.

Okay, look at those great

look at those nice houses, those nice sized houses on reasonable sizes.

Still pretty steep, not quite as steep.

The Worcester Charm.

It is the Worcester Charm.

The charms on the side is pobble-ridden, leafless trees.

Pretty nice houses.

I'm sure they have leaves on their trees.

Yeah, that would be so sad if the just trees never had leaves on them.

This is definitely a much more scenic tour of Worcester in that you're seeing a lot more of it.

Look at that cabled beauty.

A lovely home.

And a mic Berbiglia in every pot.

Usually the sun is right in here.

A lot of curb appeal here in Western City.

Okay, so now this is the road.

This is Salisbury Street, the same road that we turned onto.

And so that

we're approaching

the end point of shortcut A.

And so where this car is coming out of right now, that's the end of shortcut a so now this is the end of the um checker flag the two two uh shortcuts converge uh thank you very much all right

for those of you listening who couldn't see um how would you describe the experience of shortcut b

obviously so the listeners could tell it takes longer it's windier would be the

the keyword I was starting to feel like I was in a little bit of an amusement park situation.

There were a lot of twists and turns, and I don't get car sick.

A lot of of people are like,

that made me a little nervous.

However, as I mentioned, there was a lot of, you got to see a lot more homes of Worcester, a lot of curb appeal.

And the street did seem smoother.

It seemed smoother, less interesting.

Yeah, fewer bumps.

Yeah.

Well, I can tell you which one works better for podcast purposes, Kirsten, pretty clearly, the 51-second one.

Which video works better for showing on the podcast?

The one that takes less time for the podcast.

I mean, it is, it is literally the shortest cut.

Yeah.

Right.

But I guess Kirsten's husband's Chris's argument for shortcut B is that sometimes shortcut A, you get stuck behind some

pokey neighbors in their cars.

Yeah.

It does seem like you're going to end up making a left turn from the stop sign into, you know, across a lane of traffic.

So I can see that being tricky.

Which one would you take, Josh Condelman, personally?

You know, I think personally, I'd be a shortcut B guy because I like,

I like the consistency.

However,

what do you mean you like?

Because I like knowing that it's going to be that smooth, windy, 71-second journey every time, right?

I think me,

I'm not a rambling gambling type.

So if you are kind of the wild gambler, knowing when to hold them, knowing when to fold them, I would suggest shortcut A because the upside is you save those 23 seconds.

Right.

Unless you get stuck behind a couple of slow pills.

Exactly.

Yep.

And then it's all over.

You just blew it.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

Well.

Sorry.

This is this is very hard, Josh.

This is a very hard one for me.

I'm sorry, I gotta say.

It's because I don't want to go against.

I'm looking at the map now is the thing.

Yeah.

And there is no question that shortcut A,

Blue Root, is much, much more direct.

It's about 50% the length.

Right.

I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to triangulate exactly where these people live in Worcester.

But shortcut A is just basically a straight shot along Sagamore Road.

And I like to say Sagamore because that was the name of our high school newspaper.

in Brookline, Massachusetts.

Yeah.

Whereas you're going, you're, you're whipping, you're whipping down Wakona Road, taking a hard left on Whitman Road, and then a right on Salisbury Street.

These are all some pretty cool New England-named streets.

Yeah, very New England-y.

I do love to hear the street names.

There's something counterintuitive about saying that the shortest cut is not actually the shortest cut.

And it went shorter this time around, Kirsten.

I mean, that speaks to your argument.

But I guess I personally, I probably would take that Wakana Road, Whitman Road ramble as well, because I'm a rambling kind of guy, not a gambler.

Just a rambler.

Are you a gambler or a rambler?

I guess that's what it comes down to.

I don't buy into the rambler-gambler binary.

I don't like to split a decision.

So I have to say, the shortest,

I mean, unless we have a lot of data, and you know, Judge John Hodgman is famous for his data.

It's really just impossible to say because the the shortest cut was the shortest cut.

It was shorter than the other one.

It's tough for us to rule otherwise on what might happen, right?

Right, right.

So we have no prediction.

We have no statistical analysis.

So this is what I would say.

Kirsten, run this experiment 150 more times.

Get me the data.

You're under no, it's no rush.

Just do it.

Just do it 150 more times.

Video it 150 more times.

This is a 20-year-long argument.

There's no rush.

But until then, even though Josh and I and understand why

Chris prefers shortcut B, the longer cut,

I have to rule just on the side of science and the evidence that is given to me, shortcut A is the shorter cut, if that is what you're trying to look for, a shortcut.

Shortcut B, it seems a more, it's a more leisurely drive.

Shortcut A is the fast, fast one.

Both shorter than the long way around.

Oh, forget the long one.

You're going to go all the way around the Harry Goddard house, whatever that is.

No way.

I don't want to get anywhere near that American Antiquarian Society that I see on this map.

I have places to go.

I have a life to live.

You think I'm going to spend, as Mary Oliver would put it, the late poet, my one wild and precious life driving around the Harry Goddard house?

I shan't.

No, Josh shan't, nor shan't I.

Shortcut A until I see that data from 150 trial runs of both, of

both routes.

Don't split it up.

It's not 75, 75.

300 total.

I want all video.

And I want that to be a special podcast by the end of the year.

There is a rush, actually.

I did that.

Yeah, end of 2021.

I just want to run audio of

150.

So they're both, roughly they're about a minute each one.

So that would be 300 minutes of driving in Worcester.

There is kind of also a lovely, lovely, with 300 trips, a lovely ASMR quality, if listeners are interested in that.

I think it would be incredible.

I would listen to that in the car.

Isn't that weird?

You would layer it on top of your own car sounds.

That's right.

Kind of the Phil Specter production style.

A wall of ground, they call it.

Doesn't get better than Josh.

Doesn't get better than Josh Palmeman when it comes to a Phil Spector pun.

Doesn't get better.

Just joshing with Josh.

Let's move on.

Here's something from Derek from Willamantic, Connecticut.

My partner, three friends, and I stopped at Voodoo Donuts in Denver, Colorado while road tripping across the U.S.

in college.

The shop is known for its unique flavors, Captain Crunch, Oreo, Bubblegum, etc., and we bought a dozen assorted, each a unique flavor, no doubles.

This instigated a fight that lasts to this day.

My partner thought that each donut should be split evenly so everyone can have a taste of each kind.

I appreciate this sentiment, but I think the best way to eat a donut is to eat the whole donut.

If I wanted to eat bites of donuts, I'd buy Tim Bits.

Tim Bits, I believe, are Canadian munchkins, right?

Yeah, they're the Tim Hortons version of the American.

The donut whole, generically speaking.

Right.

Dunkin' Donuts owns the copyright to munchkins, is that correct?

I believe so.

So you're a Dunkin' Donut partisan, correct?

I am.

What do you think about these voodoo donuts?

I like a fancy donut, but it's a different thing, right?

Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't go there and just be like, well,

I guess I'll just grab one of these decadent Oreo cookie donuts as like a companion for my morning coffee because then for lunch I would have a three-hour nap.

And also some of those flavors.

Like,

I don't think anyone wants to eat a whole bubblegum donut.

No, it seems more like you taste it and then you go, oh yeah, it does taste like a bubblegum.

Yeah, novelty, novelty donuts.

Whereas a Dunkin donut is a workaday pastry.

A blue-collar donut.

And occasionally a blueberry donut.

You eat a donut from time to time, right, Josh?

I'll eat a donut from time to time.

You go on a road trip back when such a thing was possible and you'll go on one again when it's possible again?

Definitely.

You're in a car with some friends.

You stop and get some novelty donuts.

You got 12 different wackadoo flavors.

What's such as mohair and

mohair and mohair?

There's a mohair one and a cardigan one, weirdly.

Split them up.

Double mohair?

What are some of the other flavors?

I can't think of anything.

You get your mohair, you get your double mohair, you get your cardigan.

You've got your sycamore.

I only got cardigan because you're wearing one, of course.

I was about to say post-it node flavor because I'm looking at stuff on my desk.

Just like how

a character comes up with an alias in a 90s thriller.

Oh, it's like how, like, eight or a nine-year-old John Hodgman hanging around in my house with my oldest friend Damon Graff.

And Damon Graff was telling me all about his imaginary friend, Fred.

And I said, Well, I have an imaginary friend.

And Damon said, Yeah, what's his name?

And I said, Uh,

windowsill.

True story.

Ooh, oh, come from the uh, from the Connecticut windowsill family.

Oh, Josh, too many tangents, Josh.

TMTs.

TMT.

You're in a road trip.

You get some novelty-flavored donuts.

You're in the car.

Your instinct, Josh, your preference, not what's right or what's wrong.

Do you want a whole bubblegum donut?

You know, I won't even throw you the bubblegum.

Yeah, give me one

that a person might eat a whole donut of.

you want a whole whole maple glazed

or a little taste of maple glazed oreo and captain crunch and whatever i'm a little taste guy you're little bites little bites

yeah especially when it's an assortment of novelty donuts if it was like everyone make an order right and i was like oh i'd like a blueberry glazed donut please and then everyone someone goes let's do little bites is like that was not the deal Right.

Right.

Yeah.

No, well, the problem was they had not made a deal.

They went in, they went in recklessly.

They ordered an assorted dozen, and then they just started driving.

I guess they were, you know, they didn't think about it.

They didn't stop and think.

Like Elma and Louise themselves.

Exactly.

Exactly so.

Oh, a sad P.S.

We drove over a cliff.

Weird.

I didn't see that.

I guess they're okay, though.

I did ask Derek how, because this did happen, and I was curious how they decided to resolve the situation in the moment.

And he wrote back, after negotiating which donuts we could eat and which we wouldn't mind missing out on, two of us were able to have one whole donut each.

The two who wanted a whole one each got their own.

He had the Oreo donut, and it was delicious.

Of course, it is.

But he also wrote, Interestingly, the women in the car wanted to split, and the men all wanted to eat a whole donut.

And since then, we've seen similar trends when polling our friends.

See, it's all about the data, Josh.

It's all about the data.

This is a data-driven.

You're one of the leading podcasts in data-driven podcast media.

We drilled down the numbers.

This podcast is the subject of the famous Michael Lewis book, Money Pod.

Yeah.

So let's get some more data.

Jennifer Marmer, according to Derek, there is a

gender role breakdown

between who wants to split a donut and who wants a whole donut.

I guess due to male whole donut donut anxiety, they're afraid they can't have the whole thing, it'll make them less lesser somehow.

But without Jennifer Marmor, what is your gut instinct?

You want a whole donut in this situation?

One whole novelty donut or parts of multiple novelty donuts?

This is a tough one.

When we were working in the office during normal working in the office time,

not often, but a lot of times

somebody would bring in donuts from a novelty donut place.

They also have normal donuts that aren't novel.

California donuts in Koreatown, and they have just really great, fun donuts.

They have like an Oreo donut that looks like a little panda.

Love it.

Sounds good.

It is good.

And

in that situation,

I would probably do

a split, you know, like like a little piece, just because it's a lot.

I'm also, it's just a lot of donut.

And I don't know if I want to, it's not even about the anxiety of

splitting it or whatever.

It's just too much donut for me.

But, you know, if it was just a regular maple glaze, whole donut.

And also if they're in the car, I wouldn't want to deal with splitting

because it feels like a hassle.

Oh, so wait a minute.

Now you're saying, now you're leaning.

If it's in the office

of maximum fun,

you want little donuts.

If it's in the car, you want a whole donut.

Yeah, because I don't want to deal with

our numbers all over the place.

I know.

I'm not giving a helpful answer, but that's how I feel.

Well, look, we just blew the stats because I'm a little bit of a donut guy.

And I am arguably a guy.

The arguments have been made, but I'm male.

So we've just reversed all of your data, Derek.

I think that the obvious answer here is split them up.

Yeah.

In this context, you should have split them up, Derek.

Or if you wanted a donut of your own, a donut of one's own, to enjoy, you order that separately.

You can't order family style and then stake a claim to a whole donut.

I want all of that big platter of spaghetti and meatballs.

Yeah.

You can't do that.

Right.

Yeah.

Because what your friends won't tell you, Derek, is you got that Oreo donut and you left a bubblegum sitting out there.

Everyone, of course the Oreo donut was delicious.

That's a delicious time-tested flavor in any sort of sweet, sweet treat capacity, but a bubblegum pastry?

Like, that's just, that's, that's novelty for the sake of novelty, and it's gross.

And yeah, I understand why you wanted to eat a whole Oreo donut.

Here's what your friends weren't telling you.

They all did.

But you, but you, I, I, they all just sort of went along.

It's like, Derek wants the Oreo.

Fine, let's just keep going.

We, we have another, We have another 900 miles to drive with this guy.

I'm sure you're very sweet, Derek.

Don't get me wrong.

But in this context,

you're on a road trip.

You're out to experience the world.

You're not ordering in from the donut place in Koreatown

at Maximum Fund headquarters that you can order in from any day you like.

You're not going to your regular donut place.

You're going to a place that, you know, I think there are other voodoo donuts in the world, but it's like you're zooming through Denver, the mile-high city.

Let's get these wackadoo donuts.

Let's just be wild.

Let's get an assorted dozen.

And then you're driving on, and who knows when you're ever going to go back there again?

Don't just eat the Oreo.

Sample life.

And

let the Oreo into other people's hearts and mouths.

Yeah.

Josh, when we get to go on a road trip again, where are we going?

And we, I mean, we as humans.

No, you and me.

You pick a road trip for you and me.

All right.

I just, I was genuinely, it was a personal question that I turned into a weird, a weird personal request.

Well, my first, my first road trip is

just before I'm like, my vaccines are

fully

engaged,

before thrusters engage on the full vaccines, I'm going to rent a car and go visit my parents in Massachusetts.

I haven't seen them since Christmas 2019.

That's awesome.

So I'm very excited excited to see them.

But

that's a destination.

Yes.

And the correct choice.

Thank you.

And I will go with you, obviously.

That's what I was going to say.

You will join me and my wife Maris to visit my parents.

They're big fans.

Love Maris.

Love her podcast.

The Maris Review, best name in podcast.

My parents would be very excited and surprised to see you.

I'd be thrilled to meet them.

What are their names?

David and Ellian.

Do they like to be called by their first names, or is is it a Mr.

and Mrs.

Gondelman situation?

I think at the age that we're at now as adults, I think that they're okay with that, with first names.

I'm going to Mr.

and Mrs.

Gondelman then.

I think they would appreciate that

extra mile.

I still go mom and dad.

Yeah, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that myself, but Mr.

and Mrs.

Gondlombel.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was not a suggestion.

Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood.

If you watch them,

they are used to answering to mom and dad, so it would put them at ease if you would call them that.

I'm going to call Mr.

and Mrs.

Gonliman, and guess what's going to happen, Josh?

They'll be charmed.

Before I leave town,

I'll be dropping into a local Stoneham, Massachusetts mailbox, a handwritten thank you note.

And they will love me more than you.

Let's move on.

Let's go to a break.

Wait, okay.

No, not ready for a break?

I was just going to ask, they'll love you more than I love you you or more than they love me.

They're going to be like, John Hodgman is a sweet guy.

He's not as mean as everyone said he was.

He deserves to keep his podcast.

Josh has his own podcast.

Don't take over the Judge John Hodgman podcast, Josh.

Please.

He wrote us a handwritten thank you note.

It's a truly wonderful gesture that not enough people do.

Thanks for the inspiration, John Kimball.

Now let's go to a break.

We'll be back with more cases to clear from the docket on the Judge Josh Gondelman podcast.

What?

How come you wrote that?

Well, Jennifer Marmor is already updating the text, the template.

We got to give the people what they want.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

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Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This week, we're clearing the docket.

I'm your guest bailiff, Josh Gondelman.

Here's a case from Lance in Twinsburg, Ohio.

My partner Amy and I often have disputes about whether fantasy worlds in books and games take place on other planets.

I contend they do take place on other planets, especially if a map is included or or the creators describe geographic features that do not exist on Earth.

For example, the Yatil Mountains in Greyhawk from Dungeons and Dragons.

I almost said Yatil Mountains, but that sounds very Yiddish, more Yiddish than I imagine Dungeons and Dragons.

You gave it some good fantasy world sauce on it.

The Yatilu.

Amy says, it's just a fantasy world, and it exists without any other needed context.

I ask the court to rule that I may call fantasy worlds planets, and that Amy does not roll her eyes when I do.

A case that tests the tension between fantasy and science fiction.

Two genres often lumped together

by their own choice for protection against the world.

They stand back to back and gently cower against one another.

Did I ever tell you that I was the host of the Nebula Awards, which is one of the top-tier awards for fantasy and science fiction writing.

I don't think you've spoken about it, but wasn't it in your book, Medallion Status?

It was.

And in the Medallion Status, I wrote about how we were all in this hotel in Chicago together, and there was this huge signing.

All of the science fiction and fantasy writers, and me, were signing books in one big ballroom.

And then down a short hallway in another big ballroom, a local, I think, Catholic school was having its prom.

And

during the signing, I kind of had to take a break and I left this room full of older science fiction and fantasy writers just and just grew and just felt drawn towards the pumping base of this high school prom.

And all these beautiful, you know, young people in their rented tuxedos and gowns.

Some of them had come out to take a breather from all the dancing and all the incipient hugging and kissing that was going to happen.

And they were just like full of life and energy.

And just in their exhalation and their moment of rest, they had more energy than I'll ever have in the rest of my life.

And every now and then, a couple of them, one of them would catch my eye and they would see this withered, weird, half-bearded old man

sharing their universe for a moment.

And I felt like, oh, this is a science fiction book.

They're looking through a portal to another dimension.

And it's like, don't stare at the abyss too long or you will become that.

I'm from the future.

So, I mean, look, obviously science fiction deals more in planets.

But, Josh, in your opinion,

do you read a lot of fantasy?

I used to when I was a kid.

I haven't seen what you rock.

I was doing just the real basics.

I did some Narnia.

I did,

gosh, I found a book outside my home yesterday that I tweeted a picture of because I thought it was funny.

And I think I may have read read it as a kid.

It's called Dealing with Dragons.

And

Beloved.

I tweeted it L.

Yeah, it is.

Let me find the name because it is, I tweeted it and then like immediately 30 people were like,

that's my favorite book from when I was a kid.

I read the whole series.

My nephew is reading it right now and it's like, it makes me cry.

It is by Patricia Christian Reed.

Reed.

W-R-E-D-E.

Yes.

I think we have access to the same database here.

It's a database podcast.

Enchanted Forest Chronicles, the first in the Enchanted Forest Chronicles.

Where does it take place?

Princess Cimmerine is frustrated by her life and persuades the castle staff to teach her magic cooking Latin.

That's on Earth, I guess.

Doesn't say what the name doesn't say what the name of the fantasy kingdom that she is.

Yeah, the realm doesn't say here.

Do you remember if it was on Earth or not?

I don't.

Oh, okay.

Well, that's interesting.

Those are some good touchstones, right?

Because Narnia, is that another planet?

Well, so they start on Earth, right?

Of course they do.

They start on, and then they go through the wardrobe.

Go through the wardrobe.

To the realm of Narnia.

Yeah.

There's no part of Narnia that maps to the map of any part of Earth.

Right.

But also, we don't know that it's somewhere else.

Yeah.

Does that feel like another planet to you or another realm?

Much more realm-like to me.

Let's not even define what realm is.

Yeah.

Does not feel like travel to another planet.

It does not feel like travel to another planet.

Now,

Middle-earth

and Lord of the Rings, is that another planet?

Or another realm?

I always assumed it was an inaccessible realm that was part of the planet Earth.

Our Earth.

Why are you saying that?

Just because our Earth.

No, our Earth.

Are you pronouncing Earth in a special way?

Like, oh, I didn't put some.

That's how you say it in Sindarin, I guess.

Yeah, I didn't all of a sudden be like,

how would Ludacris say it?

Like at the end of a lyric, just like,

yeah,

the Hobbits went around and they walked through Earth.

Well, close but no pipeweed pipe out of Hobbits in there, Josh, because it's Earth.

That's why it's called Middle Earth.

Yeah.

It's supposed to be Earth a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long time ago.

Oh, it was Middle the Time?

Something like that.

It's hard.

Like, you know,

you look at the maps of Middle-earth, the global maps of Middle-earth, and they don't track to Earth, but this is supposedly in some prehistoric Pangea moment.

I could be getting this wrong, but I'm fairly sure I got this right because I studied that maps of Middle Earth book for a long time.

I always pictured it as like you'd take an elevator down to the middle of the Earth's crust and it was hollow.

You're talking about

hollow earth.

Yeah.

You're talking about the hollow earth theory.

The hobbit earth theory is what I'm talking about.

I don't have time for hollow earth right now, but that would be a plan.

That would be plan Earth.

So here's what I have to say about this, Lance.

I understand where your partner Amy is coming from.

This fantasy is fantasy.

It is fantastic.

It is sort of beyond the mundane, the literal worldly.

And instead, it is a flight of fancy.

And I find myself, I think the Narnia thing was a real gut test for me.

Because, you know, you tried, Lance, to load the dice.

You tried to load the 20-sided dice on this one.

Which is very noticeable on a 20-sided dice.

There's so many ways it could land and for it to be the same one every time.

16, 16, 16, over and over and over again.

Sure.

You didn't go as high as loading it to be a critical hit, but sure.

16 every every time is

you're putting your thumb on the scale.

Hey, it's all about data.

If you know what the data is going to be every time, you have an advantage.

But you name-dropped those Yatil Mountains in Greyhawk, which is the original setting of Dungeons and Dragons.

Initially, the castle of Greyhawk, then the city of Greyhawk, and then

the world of Greyhawk is how it's defined on the same database we were looking at together earlier, Josh, but a different page.

The one about Greyhawk.

The Greyhawk Wikipedia entry entry has some pretty amazing subheadings, including the Greyhawk Wars, Gygax Departs,

Greyhawk novels continue without Gord the Rogue.

I mean, this is what I'm going to be reading when I wake up at 2 o'clock in the morning tonight.

Gygax Departs sounds so much like the title of like a fish song that they've never put on an album.

And when they play it live, it's 50 to 90 minutes.

And everyone's like, you've got to hear Gygax Departs.

Yeah, no, Fish, you get that.

We have a lot of fish listeners.

Get word, hey, fish listeners, get word to my friend, my personal friend, Mike Gordon, bassist from Fish.

We got a name of a song for him, and it's Guy Gax Departs.

They'll tell you what it means.

We've got to call, and Gary Gygax was the creator of Gary Gygax was the creator who, much like Steve Jobs,

left his most well-known creation, but unlike Steve Jobs, never came back.

He departed.

He departed on the on the gray boats to Elven Heaven or whatever.

It's all covered in the song lyrics.

Yeah, let's not bore the listeners.

It's going to be a hot song.

You know what?

Hang on.

Mike Gordon, my friend, the bassist from Fish,

give me a minute.

If there is a Judge John Hodgman listener who wants to write and perform, Guy Gax Departs

in

the style of fish, in your own style, in your own style.

You can freestyle it.

I would love to hear that song.

There is also a subheading in here called Setting.

Setting,

in which the name of the planet on which the world of Greyhawk is located is named.

And do you know what the name of that planet is?

I'm going to guess Greyhawk.

O-Earth!

O-E-R-T-H.

Wait, the thing I said by accident earlier?

Yes, that's why I was so

struck by what you said.

I couldn't, I thought you were getting ahead of me.

You were in my mind.

I was way behind.

So, yeah, absolutely, you know, Lance, you're right that Greyhawk is on a planet.

But I, but, and, and, you know, other fantasy novels take place in worlds that have clear planetary features.

Like,

I'm going to say that Westeros

is on a planet that is not Earth because it doesn't share any of the geographical features of Earth, does not track to any of the history of Earth.

It's a completely separate planet, probably in a different dimension, that happens to share most of the language and culture of medieval England for reasons unknown.

It's a fantasy.

It doesn't

logic.

Have we been over this that I hate when stuff has British accents just because it's old?

That is a pet peeve of mine.

Give them Greek accents for once.

Anything.

Are you trying to come in here and poop on my favorite show, I Claudius?

No.

Ancient Rome, some of the best British actors of all time.

Not

that they can never be British.

It's just that sometimes they should be German.

Or,

you know, I just think a variety of accents.

In any case, fantasy worlds can be set on planets and identified as such for sure.

But that does not mean that a fantasy world is necessarily a planet because it exists outside of rational description.

That's the point of the fantasy.

It is a world.

It is a realm.

It is a dimension.

It is a...

And who knows, maybe in this fantasy world,

there aren't planets.

Maybe the planets are flat.

Maybe it's like Asgard floating out in space, flat.

Like the cover of a a yes record album,

a big feature, a big floating island

in the cosmic slop or whatever.

It can be whatever it wants to be.

Now, Lance's partner, Amy, don't roll your eyes.

Lance isn't wrong.

Greyhawk's on a planet.

It's called Earth.

There's all kinds of precedent for this.

There's all kinds of science fiction and fantasy crossover, all kinds of fantasy stories that are actually taking place on other planets that are not Earth and are defined as planets.

But it's okay for the Narnia to be in a symbolic realm of myth,

which is not bound to a planetary scale.

That's what I would say.

Josh, do you disagree?

No, I think this is a great ruling.

I think like,

it is helpful to have from the new host of the podcast.

Yeah, your last ruling was a terrific one.

Your final ruling, I should say.

Whoa.

Not even going to let me finish this this one out.

We're flipping this.

We're passing the baton mid-podcast.

All right, here we go.

Next one.

Josh, here's something from Faith

from Unknown Location.

No, I'm uncomfortable.

Faith writes.

No, no, no.

No, no, no.

No, look.

Look.

You're going to make me smoke the whole podcast.

Oh, you want to host the podcast?

Host the whole thing.

No, not the whole.

We're almost done.

That's true.

Faith says, I am an engineer for a medical device design consulting company.

As such, a lot of what the details...

Excuse me.

See, this is hard to do.

I don't, I'm not.

This is hard work to do.

Do you want to switch back?

Yeah, let's do it.

Okay.

I'm an engineer for a medical device.

This is still Faith from an unknown location.

Right.

I'm an engineer for a medical device design consulting company.

As such, a lot of the details of my work are confidential due to client NDAs.

When I talk evasively about what I'm working on, it leads to some weird statements like, customs wouldn't let me through with our prototype.

And our device isn't making the building shake anymore, so that's nice.

And

I got stuck in the blood room again.

Whoa.

My friends Lo and Marion have taken to accusing me of being a spy due to these statements.

I don't mind being given a more sinister job title, and naturally, I play up the weirdness of my workplace for fun.

However, I object to being labeled a spy when titles like Mad Scientist or Henchperson to a Supervillain fit so much better.

I feel like I told them objects moved on their own in my house, and they concluded I had a Bigfoot infestation.

Please tell Lo and Marion to make the accusations fit the evidence.

Now, sometimes, Josh, Jennifer Marmor and I do a little polish on the letters to tighten them up because,

you know, we're a professional podcast.

Yeah.

You know,

if we're going to play

an audio only of someone driving and not talking, we're going to keep it to 75 seconds, just out of courtesy to the listener.

51 to 75 seconds is the sweet spot.

We all know.

Right.

And as I was looking through this this morning, Jennifer Marmor, I saw this line.

I feel like I told them objects moved on their own in my house, and they concluded I had a Bigfoot infestation.

And I was like, I don't understand what that means.

I'm going to cut it out because it's not clear.

But then I read it again, and I'm like,

it's still not clear, but it's beautiful.

I feel like I understand what it means.

Okay, what's your interpretation because this feels like I would like to hear this lyric in Gygax departs because it feels yeah if you're writing Gygax departs to me you got to put this in there it is a beautiful turn of phrase I thought a beautifully written letter but I think specifically

what what faith is saying yeah is that she gave a problem she she provided a set of evidence that leads to a specific kind of conclusion and her friends have reached a different conclusion, like the wrong conclusion that is in a similar grouping, right?

She gave them, hey, there's a magical thing happening, clearly ghost.

And they've inferred instead, Bigfoot.

She gave them a poltergeist clue and they came back with a cryptozoology.

Right.

And so what she's saying is parallel, she's giving them all,

Mr.

Police, I've given you all the clues as the poster for that movie, The Snowman Set.

Mr.

Police, you could have saved her.

I gave her all the clues.

wow and she's all the clues for hench person or mad scientist

and they have instead incorrectly uh

called drawn a direct line to spy right merely because she's being coy about where she works yes as opposed to what she is choosing to reveal about where she works yes which would definitely point to absolutely faith i'm not even going to make you a hench a hench person to a super villain forget it mad scientist all the way way.

Look, you got stuck in the blood room.

Happens all the time.

But you're not getting ordered into the blood room.

You're taking charge.

You're the mad scientist here.

You know what I mean?

You buzzed your assistant and you're like, hey, can you reserve me the blood room from two to three?

You know, you can do that online now.

You don't have to.

You can reserve the blood room online.

Yeah, I know, but it's like, I'm putting my finger down, like, I'm still talking on the intercom.

Yeah, I know.

It's just like, I don't want to learn the whole new thing and it didn't work last time.

Can you just do it?

Can you just put him from Blood Room 2 to 3?

Okay, you're the boss.

Good role play, by the way.

But Faith, you are the boss.

You're the mad scientist.

You are the super villain.

Own it.

Well, you do own it.

Don't undermine yourself with Hench person.

And yeah, Mo and Lorian.

No, sorry, Lo and Marion.

Cool name.

Both, all of those, all four of those are cool names, but Lo and Marion are the two that you have.

If you'd like to acquire two more friends, I've got suggestions for their names.

In any case,

don't undersell Faith.

Faith is a mad scientist,

not a spy.

I have a thought on this.

Please.

So,

Faith, you're right.

Obviously, you're a person of science, a person of logic, both.

And I think you're right on the grounds of being factually correct.

However, this is their bit.

You can't dictate the rules of their bit.

If it was hurtful to you, you could say, please don't do this bit at me.

But for you to be like, you guys have a joke about me, I'm fine with you making the joke, but I wish it were correct, not the rules of bits.

Judge Josh Konnellman comes in and reverses the decision.

This is just,

this is dialogue.

I feel like I could come around to your side, but I do feel like what she's doing,

she's applying logic to the bit world.

And I feel like there's no faster way to take the air out of a bit.

Right.

This isn't a planet.

This is a realm.

You don't apply logic.

It's a realm.

You don't apply logic to bit world.

It's not a planet.

Fair enough.

All right.

Guess what?

You can't interfere with their bit, but Judge John Hodgkin is going to come back and say, turn about is fair play.

Your new bit is their names are Mo and Larion.

I would even go as far as to say your new bit can be being mad that they say spy and not super villain, but you can't actually try to convince them because then it's not a bit anymore.

Fair enough.

Judge Josh, Judge, it's not easy to say your name either.

Judge Josh Gondelman.

No, it's all the Judge Ja.

All the Judge Ja's.

They're all hard to say, but Judge Josh Gondelman has spoken.

Let's take another quick break when we come back.

An ice cream dispute and an ice cream recommendation on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Whoa, more role switching.

Wow, okay.

You're the bailiff again.

I feel like this is like we've been doing this Beastie Boys style.

We're just passing the mic.

Yeah.

I got you.

Okay, very good.

I like it.

Here's a case from Eric from the state of

Maryland.

Eric says, My wife is a monster.

She will eat the center of an ice cream carton, hogging all the mixings, as that's where they always settle.

I'm not looking for an injunction to stop her.

If she doesn't stop on her own, she won't grow as a person and understand she's being selfish.

What I'm looking for is a ruling that I'm not violating our marriage vows to honor and cherish by calling her a monster for doing it.

So, first of all, calling people monsters, that's been a thing on Judge John Hodgman for a long time.

Let me get a ruling from

Judge Gondelman.

Because

you are a person of compassion and of empathy.

Is it ever okay for a spouse to call their other spouse in a joshing manner a monster, or no?

I don't want to say never, but I don't think it's a good habit.

All right, fair enough.

So be careful, Eric.

Again, it's contextual.

But

that said, is there a crime here?

So, Josh, I had no idea what Eric was talking about, eating the core of an ice cream carton, because all the mixings always settle in the middle of the ice cream carton.

I thought maybe they had some kind of neighbor who haphazardly

threw together an ice cream with some mixins and didn't stir it well.

Because unless, except outside of those occasional pints you get with like a core of chocolate in the middle.

Like a literal like core of caramel or something like that.

Yeah.

I've never noticed that the mixins settle in the middle.

Ice cream is not a colloid.

It's not.

There's nothing settling in there.

And I think the ice.

These are commercially.

I believe they get these from the Wegmans family of stores.

They're ice creams.

And

I think that high-quality ice cream companies want to have an even dispersal of stuff inside.

Jennifer Marmar,

you ever notice that the ingredients, the chunky ingredients of an ice cream settle in the middle of the carton?

I've never experienced that.

It's very interesting.

So I asked Eric to provide some evidence that this was actually happening.

And he sent me two photos, which you,

well, yeah, I guess we're going to put these on the show page at maximumfund.org as well as the Instagram at Judge John Hodgman on Instagram because, I mean, just, you know, maybe a content warning because this first one, kind of

this first this first one is I guess white chocolate raspberry from Wegmans and the way his wife is scooped in the middle is looks a little bit like a wound.

It's a little bit

it's a little it's a little bit scary looking.

And he's and he wrote I uh we purchased the Wegmans store brand.

This is white chocolate raspberry.

I've also included one maple walnut showing how I scooped the ice cream.

And that's the second photo

which you can see that the scooping is much more even.

He's taking a clean,

almost too even.

It's unsettling in a different way.

It looks like the topography of a fantasy land.

It has peaks and valleys.

You could probably find a settlement of elves and halflings in there.

Wegmarnia.

All right.

That's it.

I'm going home.

Enjoy your new job, Josh.

Jennifer Marmor, you don't mind working for for Josh, Reggie.

He's a wonderful guy.

Oh, he's the best.

Yeah.

Wegg Marnia.

Whether it's a planet or a plane floating in an alternate dimension in space, there is definitely a fairly flat topography here that suggests that he's taking it off fairly evenly.

But neither of these photos, I have to say, Eric, proves...

your initial claim that the mixings, as you call them, settle in the middle.

I mean, what you would need to do.

Well, no, I mean, because if you look at the white chocolate raspberry, this is his wife is digging into

the ice cream right in the center.

She's creating a hole, a mine, as it were.

You know, a traditional coal mine.

You dig into the earth, as opposed to just taking off the top of a mountain like they do in West Virginia to get coal and/or

build airports.

Have you ever flown into Charleston, West Virginia, or out?

No.

The terrain is so mountainous and rocky that they had to cut off the top of a mountain to put the airport on top.

You drive up and around a mountain.

It looks like an evil villain's lair because you drive around the mountain, slowly inclining to get up to this top of the mountain that's been cut off.

And then you just have an airport up there, and the runway doesn't have to be very long because you're already,

you zip right off into it.

There's already air underneath you.

Yeah, it's scary stuff.

I like that.

I performed in Charleston with Justin and Sidney McElroy, and that was a lot of fun.

But in any case,

she's digging deep into the core, leaving

the rest of the surface untouched.

We don't see what's underneath

the untouched surface there.

Agreed.

That's true.

We're going to need more data.

We're going to need more data.

I need, all right, Eric, and I need you guys to each

eat 150

containers.

Delicious ruling.

150 containers and take, well, maybe not 150 containers.

I want you to live.

But

75 and 75.

Yeah, 75 containers each of white chocolate raspberry, 75 containers of

maple walnut.

This is all a red herring, which is one of my favorite flavors of voodoo donut.

This, I think, is all a red herring because really he doesn't want remediation of this or amelioration of this scooping problem.

What he wants is the permission to call his wife a monster for her scooping style, which I feel we should not grant regardless.

Yeah, I mean, even if you were just coming to the podcast, Eric, saying that

I don't like that my wife scoops in the middle of the ice cream because it bothers me aesthetically.

And I would prefer that

she do a strip mining operation the way I do on my maple walnut.

That still would not be evidence of monstrosity.

You need to go a little bit farther.

Even if she was doing it out of spite.

Unless you have some kind of perhaps an obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Not to be glib, where that would be

off-putting to you.

If it's just a neurotypical issue of ice cream preference.

No, thank you.

Yeah.

That said, Eric, I can appreciate why you would like your wife to be literally more even-handed in her ice cream scooping.

Because if you dig down into that core deeper without widening it,

it's going to get dangerous.

You're going to be definitely scuffing your knuckles on that ice cream as you dig in there.

There's no reason for that.

It doesn't look good.

I'm almost thinking about not posting the photo because it looks so unnerving.

Unsettling, for sure.

Yeah.

So, you know, I'm willing to order that Eric's wife scoop a little bit more evenly, but

I don't think she deserves a monster for this one.

All right, Josh, we got a letter from Maya,

who had a related ice creamy recommendation.

A few weeks ago, Jesse Thorne and I were talking about putting salt on vanilla ice cream, which I had never thought of, which is great because ice cream is the only...

I don't care for sweets, but I do love salty and fatty things.

and I never thought ice cream is is right on the tolerable edge of the of sweetness for me because it is so creamy and rich I like that but if I could add salt to it forget it I'm just gonna eat that for the rest of my life

so Maya says my husband's and my favorite ice cream combination is vanilla ice cream with flaky salt fresh figs and fruity olive oil.

We got the idea years ago from Savir magazine, and it has become a mainstay.

If figs are out of season, we sometimes use fig jam, and a flaky smoked salt

is even better.

That is Maya's recommendation, and I do not care for smoked salt, but it seems like a fun thing to try.

Otherwise,

and I bet if you like smoked salt, I bet it'd be delicious.

Josh,

you do any weird modifications with your ice cream?

No, I'm pretty

vanilla meat and potatoes with my ice cream.

Meat and potatoes is my other favorite flavor of voodoo donut.

Go on.

I love it.

But

I'll get the like fancy boutique pints of ice cream and eat them slowly over the week.

That's what I do.

Eat them slowly over the week?

Slowly take off top layer after top layer.

Never mining the core.

Because it is mine and mine alone, my wife and I do not share ice cream often.

Then I take a few liberties.

If I see a big chunk of something I want,

I take it out and put it in my bowl with no compunction.

You know what, Josh?

And listeners of the world, however you enjoy ice cream is the way you enjoy ice cream.

And you should revel in it.

Just get what you want.

You deserve to get what you want in life.

Obviously, there are times when we have to share.

There are times when we should share.

There are times we have no choice but to share.

But there are also certain gifts that we have to give ourselves from time to time, too.

Your own ice cream the way you want it, that's a good thing.

I think you deserve it.

Josh, you did a good job.

You deserve ice cream.

Thank you.

Jennifer Marmor,

you did a good job.

You deserve ice cream.

Thank you.

Don't give any to your baby.

No problem.

I won't.

That's a mean thing to say.

He doesn't know it's good yet.

Yes.

I have a friend whose parents told her that yogurt was ice cream until she was like seven and figured it out.

Parents, don't lie to your children.

Don't tell them that yogurt is ice cream, and you know how I feel about Santa Claus.

The docket is clear.

That's the end of episode one of Judge Josh Gondelman.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Thank you, Josh, for joining me today.

Josh,

where can people find you on social media?

I am on Instagram and Twitter at Josh Gondelman, G-O-N-D-E-L, man.

You got Josh Gondelman for both your Instagram and Twitter handle?

Yeah.

I had to,

I spent tens of thousands of dollars buying off another Josh Gondelman.

That would make me so sad if you did that.

Follow us on Twitter.

I'm at Hodgman.

But on Instagram, I'm John Hodgman because Hodgman was taken and that person has not updated it in 10 years.

Whoever that is.

As a show, we are on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Please follow us, like us, bookmark us, send your stories, comment more than four words, get us into that algorithm.

Make sure to hashtag your judgejohnhodgman social media, hashtag jjho, and check out the maximum fun subreddit.

If you'd like to discuss this episode, I'll be jumping into the subreddit a little bit more these days.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash jjho or email me, hodgman at maximumfund.org.

We'll talk to you next time on the judge Josh John Hodggillman podcast.

The perfect name for a podcast.

Surprise post-credit sequence.

That's right.

The Judge John Hodgman expanded universe is back on with the extra content that no one requested until I started doing it, and now it's expected.

The other week, I asked you to write in to tell me when was the age that you never ate a tomato until,

or if you had never ate a tomato at all.

I don't know why I did this.

I get enough mail, but it was very nice to hear from you all, and I am very glad to share with you now the roll call of the tomato never eaters.

These are the people who wrote in to say that they have never ate a tomato until later of life, or even until this very day, they've never ate one even now.

So, let's go.

Patrick B., age 36, never ate, quote, not even a piece.

Bethany P.

of Edinburgh never ate any tomato till age age 19 when Bethany P.

had their first slice of pizza.

They waited so long because of childhood dairy aversion and maybe because of Edinburgh.

I don't know if there's pizza there.

If it's even pizza.

Greg Z, age unknown, whose dislike of tomatoes betrays his own family legacy.

His grandfather was a tomato farmer.

Benjamin Kay, age 51, never ate.

Repulsed when family members in Georgia make a tomato and mayonnaise sandwich.

One of my favorites, but guess what?

Benjamin Kay holds his tongue because people like what they like.

Chuck Bryant, famous podcaster of Georgia, never ate a slice of tomato.

Adam M, age 42, never ate one.

Also never ate pickles, cucumbers, cherries, plums, mangoes, strawberries, watermelon, and bananas, fresh or unfresh.

Keeping it picky, Adam M.

Alan C., age 53, never ate.

And says he is at the age when he can be stubborn.

Ty B, age 41, has never swallowed a tomato.

Quote, he's never swallowed a tomato.

Weird loophole, Ty, I don't know what you're doing.

Kim G, age 35, never at one.

In part because Kim G lives with autism and finds many tastes and textures overwhelming.

Kim asked Judge John Hodgman, that's me, to stop sneering at people with texture issues on the podcast.

I didn't realize I did that, Kim.

I apologize.

I won't do it again.

Robin F, age 39, never at one.

Reports that even, quote, tomato sludge on a sandwich where a tomato has been removed is disgusting, and Robin N gives it to their wife to eat.

Kayla O, age unknown, never ate one.

Kayla has also never ate a sandwich or a burrito.

In their life, never ate a sandwich.

They're working on it.

Tom Hale never ate a hamburger till age 26 and then never again till age 37.

Doesn't like hamburgers.

In both cases, no tomato.

Andrew C., you are not the unicorn you claimed to be in your email.

Lots of people apparently have never ate tomatoes.

You're one of them at age age 39, never at one.

James E., age 54, never at a tomato, nor never ate an onion.

Lex F, age 40, never ate one, and also never drunk coffee till this year.

Robert E., age 44, never at a tomato, but he said, if I read his letter out loud, he will at one.

Okay, do it, Robert E.

Go at one.

Andrew G., age 29, never at one.

Always thought they were alone in the world, obviously not true.

JM's son, age 10, never ate a tomato, but that's perfectly reasonable.

He's a child.

That's perfectly fine.

There's still time to eat a tomato.

Lucas O., age 34, never ate a tomato, allergic to all nightshades, including tomato, eggplant, pepper, potatoes, and tobacco.

I didn't know a potato was a nightshade.

Lori T, age, late 30s, never ate a tomato.

Lori T's dad used to say that eating tomatoes and all veggies would, quote, put hair on their chest.

This made Lori feel that they would never become, quote, a proper woman, and was especially distressing to Lori because they never felt sufficiently girly when they were young.

And only in the last few years has Lori realized that they are non-binary.

So there you go, dads, go easy on jokes.

Jokes, jokes are not always great.

Karen J, age 36, never ate one and is sickened by all fruits, though they have tried a fresh banana.

Thomas R., age 54, never ate one.

Also loves beans but hates lentils, and once in the army, ate only plain bread for three days straight.

And finally, J.

Michael S., age 39, never at a tomato.

Jay Michael also reports, quote, I grew up in Quincy, Massachusetts, where I had a children's theater with the Doughboys Mike Mitchell.

If you and Jesse ever want to see video of Mitch playing LeFou in Beauty and the Beast at age 12, I'm your guy.

Yes, J.

Michael S., you are my guy.

Get me that tape so that we can play it someday in another secret post-credits sequence.

Meanwhile, if you have never at a Tomato, now you know you are not alone.

Therefore, you do not need to write me any more about it.

But I love you.

Talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodging podcast.

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