Neverlandmark Case

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Never Landmark Case.

Jesse files suit against her husband, Ryan.

During a past relationship, Ryan's ex-girlfriend made him a Peter Pan-themed painting, and he still has it.

Jesse wants to get rid of the painting, but Ryan can't bring himself to do it.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

We all know Peter Pan.

Peter Pan is a story of a young woman who gets ensnared in a relationship with an adulterous narcissist, a guy who literally commands his partner to be his mother, but it's okay because the young woman thinks her love can fix him.

But the narcissist cannot be fixed, and he eventually leaves Wendy for a younger woman who happens to be Wendy's own daughter.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Jesse Ryan, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's more of a SME?

Yes.

Absolutely.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Oh.

I just want to be clear.

Judge Hodgman, I picked Sme only because Smee has the funniest name, not because you're SME.

You know what?

Harsh but fair.

Harsh but fair.

I mean, you know, you look at me, you look at my dumb mustache and beard.

You can't see it on the podcast, but you can probably hear, I'd like to be hook.

No, I'm Smee.

Ugh.

Right, Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

All right, Jesse and Ryan, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can you name the source of the piece of arguably popular culture?

I'm just going to say you're never going to get it.

Not this time.

Never, never going to get it.

You're never going to get it.

Not this time.

I could see a situation where

Smee has finally stopped taking the guff from Captain Hook, and then he goes down into

his little bunk, in his little hammock, and listens to Envogue.

But he loves Envogue.

I can see a situation where I hijack this podcast and transform it into an envogue tribute podcast.

I could also see that situation.

And Jesse, you'd be welcome to do so.

But first, we have to administer justice in this, the very last episode of Judge John Odgman, before it is turned into an Envogue podcast.

One of the litigants is named Jesse.

Jesse Nonthorne, what is your guess?

Well, I'm honestly really relieved that I have no idea what it is.

And I'm even more relieved that Ryan's face tells me he has no idea what it is.

But I'm guessing that it is the BBC production Peter Pan Goes Wrong.

Oh, what's Peter Pan Goes Wrong?

It is a delightful comedy performance from the Cornley Polytechnic Society, the same people who did the play that goes wrong on Broadway.

Oh, yes.

I saw that.

It's their Christmas Panto.

It is, honestly, a really wonderful 40 minutes.

Listen to Ryan dropping the British theater lingo.

Their Christmas Panto.

That's me.

He does that.

Ryan non-Gosling.

That's me.

And by the way, that's your joke.

Before we even started rolling here, we were having a heck of a time.

We're going to have such a fun conversation in a minute after I bring it down for a while in a second.

We're going to have a great time.

We're already having a great time.

That fun conversation we were having before we were rolling was lost to time.

It has gone off to Neverland.

It can never be recovered.

But it was fun.

We're chatting.

I'm here, by the way, everyone, in Maine, still,

up here at WERU

in Orland, Maine, 89.9 in Blue Hill, 99.9 in Bangor, and all across the world at WERU.org.

Through the glass across from me is summertime producer Joel Mann.

Joel?

John, every time you come to Maine, it's a sunnier day for us.

Thank you.

What did you do with the real Joel?

Why are you saying sentences all of a sudden?

Okay, we'll get back to you.

He's been replaced like a changeling in a fairy tale, much like Peter Pan.

Oh, right.

Ryan non-Gosling, what is your guess?

I'm going to go with a young adult novel called Peter Pan and Scarlet.

No, you're never going to get it.

You're talking about the official sequel to Peter Pan?

Peter Pan and Scarlet?

Yes.

That was licensed, that was officially allowed by the Great Ormond Street Hospital.

Which holds the copyright to Peter Pan.

It was willed to them by J.M.

Barry.

And they commissioned...

Ooh, I wish I had this.

I really was reading the Wikipedia page this morning.

What's the name of the author of that book, Ryan Non-Gosling?

Do you know?

Ooh, Peter Pan Scarlet?

I don't.

I do not know who wrote that one.

It's Geraldine McCrawn, I want to say.

I can't.

M-C-Capital C-A-U-G-H-R-E-A-N.

McCroggan or Macron?

What a name.

A young adult author who wrote the official sequel to Peter Pan, According to the J.M.

Barry Estate.

And what was that about?

Do you know?

I have no idea.

I have not read it.

You haven't?

No.

Because you love Peter Pan, right?

I don't sleep at Peter and the Star Catcher.

Peter and the Star Catcher is as far as past canon as I go.

Got it.

Okay.

We'll talk about your love for Peter Pan.

But all guesses are wrong.

By the way, this is a first.

A Judge John Hodgman.

Yeah, it's a Judge John Hodgman first.

Jesse Nonthorne and Ryan Non-Gosling.

You know why?

Wow.

The quote is me.

Ooh.

I have done an obscure cultural reference to things I have said on Judge John Hodgman before,

but this time it's just something that I wrote this morning.

Well, I meant to get a cultural reference together, but then I went down this thought hole.

And I ended up writing this long thing about Peter Pan.

I'm like, this is too long.

I got to fudge this and put it into the cultural reference.

Because we are going to have a fun talk about Peter Pan.

But I did go into that Wikipedia page and learn all those things that I just told you about the Great Ormond Street Hospital and blah, blah, blah.

But I also had to revisit Peter Pan,

both the memory of the movie and the book and the play.

And boy, oh, boy, oh, boy, there was a lot of Peter Pan that I had blocked out.

There is a lot of Peter Pan in the world, but there's a lot of problematic Peter Pan in the world.

Amen.

Amen.

I mean, Peter Pan is a creep.

I didn't realize that.

I didn't think about it until it's like, yeah, he's likable because he doesn't grow up,

which is actually a tragedy.

And to J.M.

Berry's credit, you're going to have to listen to this for a little bit.

You guys ready?

You sitting down?

Strapped in.

We're here.

So, to J.M.

Berry's credit,

he does portray Peter's inability to grow up, his immortality.

It's sort of fun, but it's really dark.

It's this immortal, arrested adolescence that is

the true and tragic horror show that it would be when you meet someone who has never grown up, right?

Peter is full of fun tricks and sayings, and he's lively, but like any child, he's also emotionally small-minded, completely self-obsessed.

dangerously chaotic and completely until he's got to go save Wendy, like basically completely unaware of the danger that he poses to his so-called friends.

I mean, frankly, Peter Pan

is only rivaled in his bland sociopathy by one other character in literature, and that is Ferris Bueller, who is the worst.

Wow.

This is a pre-verdict verdict.

This is a verdict on Peter Pan.

And then we're going to talk about your painting.

Your Peter Pan painting.

Also, we need to point out Peter Pan, the book, the play, the famous Disney movie, it's racist.

Oh, it's so racist.

Right, it's racist.

It's racist AF.

Now, this is a family-friendly podcast, but I feel like the kids who listen to this need to know what I mean when I say racist AF.

That means racist as friends, as in the TV show Friends, which wasn't actively racist.

It only didn't acknowledge the existence of non-white people until Aisha Tyler showed up.

For a long, long time, there's no people of color on that friend.

No one in New York City, except maybe some background actors.

So Peter Plan, both play, book, and movie, is not passively racist.

It is actively peddling in ignorant, gross stereotypes about Native Americans that were not a product of their time.

Because even in 1904, in reviews of the play and the book, it was recognized that the tribe of Indians

in this story were composed entirely of incredibly offensive worn-out stereotypes, and pulp literary clichés.

They weren't even stereotypes about real people.

They were stereotypes about stereotypes, this pulp literary clichés that J.M.

Barry had absorbed from Victorian-era boys' adventure books, in which the concept of a non-white, non-British Empire other

was so common and thoughtlessly accepted and cruel that Barry couldn't even be bothered to keep his racist terms straight.

And if you want to know what I mean by that, I'm not going to say it.

Look up on the internet, as I did this morning, what the name of the quote-unquote tribe of the Indians is.

And you will be like, your gob will be smacked.

It's a very offensive term that is usually used to describe another group of traditionally exoticized, dehumanized, and marginalized people.

So, yeah, we got to say this.

I had to say this.

I don't know how Disney got a pass on this for the movie, even till now, when they finally had to hide the Song of the South away in a hole.

I do know why, because the racist dehumanizing of Native Americans was/slash is more acceptable more recently than the racist dehumanizing of black people.

And until there's a podcast about the Native Americans and Peter Pan,

you just have to go and listen to Karina Longworth's six-part miniseries of her podcast about movies.

You must remember this, that she did last November on Song of the South, which is an incredible investigation

about how even the most liberally-minded white people casually accepted this stuff as okay.

They just, they held their nose.

If they saw it, they held their nose, kind of looked away, and then came back to the stuff they liked.

So, okay, there.

Thank you, Jesse and Ryan.

We're going to have a nice time today.

Fun conversation conversation about this painting of you, Ryan, as Peter Pan.

Is that right?

No, I am certainly not portrayed as the main character in this piece.

It is a painting of Peter Pan.

You're more of a sme.

It is a painting of the three darling children and Peter Pan in silhouette going across the moon

with text from an actual book of all of my favorite parts of Peter Pan that I marked up and she pulled out and then incorporated into the painting.

Now, I've not looked at the painting because this case does not hinge on the content of Peter Pan, but rather this painting that was given to you by an ex-girlfriend.

Is that correct, Ryan?

That is correct.

And your relationship with Jesse now is what?

She is my wife.

I am her husband.

We've been married for almost a year.

Happy, almost an anniversary.

Good job.

Thank you.

I'm glad you did it last year.

Oh, we are too.

And Ryan, I presume that this was given to you because you love Peter Pan as a concept, as a thing, as a thing, right?

I do.

It was given to me.

We were dating in college, and for a project she had to do for school, she was being asked to make a piece of painting incorporating light in the use of light.

And so to dovetail it in, she was like, well, I might as well make something something worthwhile and she knew that I loved Peter Pan and so she asked me to mark up my favorite pieces and put it together and gave it to me on a date.

And Jesse you would like this thing to go into the fire.

I mean I don't really feel the need to burn it

but I don't really see a good way to give it away to someone else because it is such a personal gift and even has like dear Ryan on the back.

So I don't really see another option.

It's either like the garbage or a burning bonfire of hate.

I don't know.

One of the two.

Well, wait a minute.

Let's get to the point here.

So first of all, you know, thank you for letting me, Ryan.

I know that this is a piece of culture that means a lot to you, obviously.

And you're also obviously aware of all of its problematic content.

Most certainly.

It is very easy to see and hard to overlook.

So tell me what Peter Pan means to you such that this painting, which I have not reviewed the evidence yet, that's going to be my final judgment will be based on, in part, on the quality of the piece itself, my reaction to it.

So I don't want to look at it just yet.

But tell me what Peter Pan means to you,

such that this painting was inspired.

Absolutely.

I grew up as part of a performing family, actually.

My dad is a performer, and so I grew up in the theater as a kid.

My first introduction to Peter Pan was actually the Mary Martin musical by Comden and Green.

And then later, the Kathy Rigby, which is better because they improved the fly system.

But every version of Peter Pan, I read the play, and then read the novel, and then read the novel that it was based on, and then like every movie that's come out, there's just...

There is something about Peter Pan, and like you said, the very digestible, very tropic things that are tropic because they are based in allegory and based in like the roots of truth.

Like there is something about like the loss of innocence versus like the cost of innocence and youth about like

Peter Pan is that perpetual boy and he wants to be that boy, but it also means that he never gets love and he never gets intimacy, but he avoids responsibility.

And

there's something about it that just there is no version of Peter Pan in which at some point I don't end up crying watching it.

Like whether it's Tinkerbell has taken the poison and now we all have to clap to believe in fairies or Finding Neverland which is the whole movie because don't it's just I can't watch that movie anymore.

I cried too hard.

I watched it twice.

I watched it one time and then watched it a second time because I was like it couldn't have been that bad and it was and I cried so hard don't kill Kate Winslet.

Titanic understood that

And then Hook, when he realizes that family is what matters and he goes back home.

Like, there's no version of Peter Pan where it doesn't, like, hit me on, like, a base human level in which you're happy about the joy of it and sad at the tragedy of it.

And you understand the cost of what it means to grow up.

And I love that about Peter Pan.

It's definitely very heart-wrenching.

There's some deep stuff at play

for sure in Peter Pan.

I'll be honest, I couldn't watch it.

I was never very, I love Disney parks.

I was never very into Disney animated movies, aside from appreciating them as cultural touchstones.

That's me speaking as a nine-year-old.

That's what I would say.

I appreciate this as a cultural touchstone.

But one of the things that's true about Disney animated movies is that

they punch you in the gut.

And Tinkerbell

sacrificing herself,

a woman sacrificing herself to save this narcissist who has paid no attention to her.

It really hit me hard.

And continues to pay no attention to her afterward.

Yeah, I know.

He's a monster.

But, you know, I find that to be, to me, the big revelation of my rethinking of Peter Pan.

It's like, oh yeah, there's also a reason why you watch Ferris Bueller.

Like,

something extremely interesting and fun about a person who both subverts the rules and also shows why the rules are kind of necessary anyway.

Jesse Nonthorne, are you still here?

I am still here, yeah.

I'm sorry, Ryan and I went down a little.

We went to Neverland together for a second.

I've heard it before, so it's not news.

Jesse, how do you feel about Peter Pan?

I like Peter Pan.

It doesn't hit me the same way it hits Ryan, and that's because like one of Ryan's particular

I think everyone has something that makes them cry.

And Ryan's particular thing is children growing up.

And obviously there's hardly any piece of art that captures that quite the way Peter Pan does.

Yeah.

And so he connects to it so deeply.

I don't have that same connection to Peter Pan.

I do have a harder time getting past the racist aspects of it.

But I do appreciate it as the...

the exploration of what it means to grow up and what it means to be an adult and to be a child and its recognition that all children are monsters.

It's not true.

Well, it's a fairy tale in the tradition of real fairy tales, which are much more ambiguous.

We'll talk more about that later.

But, Jesse, I interrupted you.

So what would be your version of Peter Pan and your cultural life?

Is there something that you really dig?

Oh, something that I connect to.

Yeah.

I am far more,

I guess, connected to

high fantasy stories and also like Grimm's fairy tales.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't, I don't have anything against darker fairy tales.

It's just the growing up thing isn't my particular cup of tea.

Yeah.

I like I like stories of people overcoming great difficulty, usually adults.

Yeah.

Like not adults necessarily, but like not necessarily selfish children.

I like stories where I can connect and admire the main character.

Yeah, people like growing into adulthood.

and leaving childish things behind and being able to part with say a painting made by an ex-girlfriend

You could say that, yeah.

Like that measure of kind of, like, I don't want, wang, wang, I don't want to let the past go.

As opposed to, I am an adult and I realize nostalgia is the most toxic impulse.

It is time to put this behind me.

Ryan, I'm just being

painted with a Paulian brush.

Yeah, I'm being cheeky.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

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There seems to be a premise that you have both brought to the virtual courtroom that you are ready to move on from this painting.

In other words, Jesse Nonthorne said

the issue isn't whether to throw it in a metaphoric fire, but what is the best way to dispose of it given that it is so personal.

Ryan,

have you agreed in principle and in your heart that it might be time to let this thing go?

There is certainly an element of it does not quite have a place in our literal or metaphorical lives.

Okay.

In our literal lives, there's literally no place on our walls in our New York apartment to paint this thing.

We have enough other art that is good and great, and the walls are taken up with that.

And the metaphorical of

it is a lovely thing, and it does mean a lot to me, and it means a lot to to my past and it is a very personal gift but it also feels strange to embrace like yep this is a thing given me by a girl that I used to date and now I'm gonna hang it in my kids nursery like that feels weird that seems like a poor decision in life are you still in touch with this person is this person still a part of your life

We talk very occasionally.

We ended on great terms.

She lives in the city.

Now, here's the very strange and salient point.

Her name is also Jessie.

This is a fairy tale.

This is not strange.

It was the 90s.

Everyone was named Jesse.

En Vogue was burning up the charts.

Friends was also burning up the charts and everyone was named Jesse.

She works in theater.

She's a lighting designer on Broadway.

And so occasionally, when she has friends and family tickets, she throws them my way.

So we have gone and seen, Jesse and I, my wife Jesse and I, have actually seen some shows that she has lit off of her discount.

I have not.

That was how we got the Sweeney Todd hookups.

You didn't tell me that it was a birthday present.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Wow, it was a birthday present?

Yes, she throws free Broadway tickets my way occasionally.

Don't talk past this birthday present thing.

Did you also give her the Peter

painting as her birthday present?

No, I or was that Christmas or Hanukkah or something?

Jesse, how does it feel to learn that your tickets to Sweeney Todd were copped off of Ryan's old lover that he kept secret from you?

I mean, I'm heartbroken.

I'm sad that I ever grew up.

No, it's fine.

You're married to a trickster.

A trickster.

A mischievous trickster.

I mean, I didn't know that when I married him.

Yeah.

Yeah, you went in eyes wide open.

Yeah.

I will say that wife Jesse and ex-girlfriend Jesse have met.

It's true.

And have shared a meal together and have played Broadway karaoke bingo together.

When two people play Broadway karaoke bingo, no hard feelings can exist.

Oh,

I mean, look, this is a symbol of maturity and non-childishness, right?

that you're all getting along together just fine.

You have moved on to a new relationship, and yet there are no hard feelings, and that's great.

It's terrific.

Does other Jessie know that you're contemplating moving on from this painting?

She does not, and I actually have floated the idea of offering to return it to her if it's that precious, but that also feels very bad.

So, I don't know.

I honestly don't know the social

contract of this situation.

Nope.

Do you know if she listens to podcasts

Right before we were about to record, Ryan looks up and says, do you think we should warn Jess that we're doing this?

And then we both shrugged and said,

maybe we did some internet research.

She has not liked this podcast specifically on her Facebook page.

Or Twitter.

Or Twitter.

We actually did do this very specific research.

So we're not positive whether or not she listens to this show.

So we can't say she doesn't listen, but we can say we're not sure that she does.

Throw her painting down a well then, please.

Now

no, it's fine.

I'm not going to punish the painting for other Jesse's podcast tastes.

It's not how I roll.

I'm not a punitive trickster god.

I'm just an adult human judge.

Ryan, you present this as a issue of decor.

You don't have room to display it anymore.

And even you acknowledge it's a little weird to have around, say, and do you have children?

Are you expecting children?

Because you mentioned something about it.

We do not have, nor are currently expecting, but plan at some point in the vague future to have them.

To steal an infant from a perambulator and raise it in a neverland of your own.

From Kensington Gardens.

That's the working plan.

If you had your drugs, Ryan, would you like to just keep this thing and display it?

Are you really ready to let go of it?

Like, when you look at the painting, how do you feel about it?

I am,

because I am 31 and a millennial, and we are overly nostalgic, as

every tabloid tells us, am a very nostalgic person.

And I do like things of the past.

And I've had this painting now for

seven or eight years.

Almost a decade.

And has hung in my college apartment, and then when I first moved to New York, and then in a couple of different places.

And so

it is a memory, not really of the relationship that I had, but of, it reminds me more of my past self rather than of the past relationship that I was in.

I have a couple of other things that I've always had.

Like, I've got a Yankees pennant from when I was like six that is still hanging in our house.

Like, and so I am a nostalgic person by...

by definition and and this painting i i would be a little sad to see it go and so i'm i am of two minds One is if we were to keep it, I would want to put some effort into it and maybe get it a nice frame and maybe make it a little more presentable to find its place on the wall and find its place, not just stashed in a closet somewhere.

Or,

if we do let it go, find a replacement for it.

Something that has a

spiritual tie from the past to the future.

And I would make Jesse get me a new one.

If she's going to get rid of my painting, I want a new one, and she has to get it for me.

Some kind of new Peter Pan artwork?

A new Peter Pan piece.

Something that still represents my connection to that and the past.

But if this particular Peter Pan does not suit her personality and her flexibility, she can get rid of it, but at the cost of getting me a new one.

Oh, you mean that your wife is going to commission a new painting from your ex-girlfriend?

Maybe not that specifically.

Maybe she finds something she likes on DeviantArt or

Redbubble.

Or we actually do have a couple of artist friends that I'm sure could make a lovely painting.

It's one of the benefits of living in New York.

There is no shortage of up-and-coming

painters who want to paint things.

So you don't have anything, a particular piece in mind

that you're using this older painting for as leverage to get?

No, I do not have a current piece that I am trying to wrangle out of the D.

Right, you're not a master strategist.

You're not a master emotional strategist.

You flit and fly from impulse to impulse like Peter Pan.

I am a lost boy.

What do you do for a living?

Uh, musical theater.

I sing and dance.

I never grew up.

I play pretend.

I've done Peter Pan on stage.

That's happened.

I played

Captain Hook for Disney Cruise Lines.

Whoa!

Joel, man, did you hear that?

I did, Judge.

Would you call that burying the lead?

Absolutely.

How did I...

Huh.

I just want to.

Look, we don't have time to go

experience playing Captain Hook on the Disney cruise line.

For how many times?

I was at sea for six months.

Speaking of nostalgia, I mean, first of all, I'm thinking, like, oh, wasn't it great when there was theater and there was cruises?

You were, I mean, it's lucky you survived.

You were at the most virusy place in the world.

I was the nexus of badness.

Yes.

But I, oh, I can't, I mean, look, you know, I talked about that six-part podcast series from Karina Longworth.

You must remember this on Song of the South.

Like, I could easily do a six-part podcast with you about this experience that you had.

I have so many questions that need to be answered.

But we'll have to table that for a debrief later on.

Ryan, do you agree to that at some point?

Absolutely.

I love talking about stories are wonderful.

They are pretty wild.

I just, all I'm going to ask you to do is do a Captain Hook voice.

Do a line.

Do something.

Alrighty.

Blast that Peter Pan.

It was he that cut off my hand.

Riveting.

Yeah, cruise line quality.

Oh,

you're never going to get it.

That is the deepest.

You're never going to get it.

Not from Jesse Thorne.

That stung me.

Ouch.

And Jesse, may I ask, what do you do in the world?

I work for a big publishing house in the city, making e-books and things.

Also someone who refused to grow up.

I guess so.

People in publishing.

You know, it's just like people in podcasts.

It's like anyone in the arts.

We don't want to grow up.

It's true.

So we take a salary hit hit and we just live in our land of pretend.

I know.

It's just pretend work.

It's pretend business.

It's money-losing business for funds.

You know what?

It's like sort of like community radio.

You know what I mean, Joel?

Joel, did you ever grow up?

No.

Right.

Jesse Thorne, did you ever grow up?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Some have grown-upness forced upon them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, all right, Jesse,

this is a crux that I got to uncrux.

How much of your dislike for this thing is aesthetic?

How much of it is let's put childish things behind us?

And how much of it is, if any, resentment because of a previous assignation?

I think it is 70% aesthetic dislike.

I don't think it is very pretty.

Right.

I just don't, I don't like it.

And I'm not a professional artist, so I guess I don't know all the rules of art, but I don't see that it's following the rules, nor do I see that it's breaking them in an interesting way.

All right, I guess it's time for me to look at this piece of art.

Please.

Here I go.

Exhibit A.

Submitted by Jesse, a photo of the painting.

Yeah.

You say that other Jesse made this in college?

Yes.

I think it shows.

I would say it's at least

cruise ship quality.

Oh my gosh.

Do you know what?

I've never been on a Disney cruise, but on a couple of other cruises with my friend Jonathan Colton, a couple of other lines, and my friend Jesse Thorne.

I think you're onto something there, Jesse.

Thorne.

Yeah, I could see this hanging in a landing between Promenade deck and Leto deck for sure.

I'll say, I look at this picture, I think

this is a painting done by a very talented lighting director.

The use of light is really wonderful.

It's true.

Jesse Thorne, you can't see this, but you're cracking Joel Mann up over here in Maine.

I've never seen him smile this much in the past five years.

It genuinely, like, my very sincere evaluation of it is that it's a very interesting looking and competently executed piece.

It has some interesting ideas.

I think she incorporated the pages from the book, like the literal pages from the book, beautifully.

And it is much more,

it's a much more sophisticated work of art than I imagined when it was described.

That said, I could see it not being to plenty of people's taste or fitting decor, and it doesn't take my breath away in its extraordinary artistic achievement.

Thank you very much.

Antiques Roadshow, Jesse Thorne.

Appreciate that.

Art appraiser.

Everyone can go to the Judge Sean Hodgman Instagram account and see this and all the evidence from our cases at any time, and you can judge for yourself.

But I would say this is a very endearing,

very sentimental work of art executed commensurate to a college age person's skill and sensibility.

It's cute.

It's cute.

It's a little, maybe cutesy,

even.

But you know what?

Ryan, you're sentimental and cutesy, right?

If nothing else.

Yeah.

And endearing.

And endearing, too.

I was raised to be charming, not sincere.

Wow, that's an incredible quote.

Some time,

I can't take credit for it.

Oh, excuse me.

I apologize.

And now, Jess, you also submitted some photos of other pieces of art in your home.

Is that what I'm looking at here?

Yeah, so the other art in our home is also usually handmade, like by friends or by me, and it's all very sentimental as well.

And I guess it just feels weird to have this also very sentimental homemade piece, but from someone not in our current world of relationships.

And also, I'm going to say that, you know,

these works of art are a little bit more mature in their style and execution.

And also collages.

Now, they're not fancy because I just made them on cardboard with old magazines, but.

I'm sorry, you made these things.

I missed that.

Yeah, those are all mine.

Oh, wow.

Well done.

Very nice.

Yeah, I think you've got the eye.

I agree.

Yeah, this is like art that's grown up.

And I don't love all of them, but one of them Ryan won't let me get rid of because he's sentimental.

They'll all be available for your review on the show page on maximumfund.org and obviously the Instagram account at JudgeJohn Hodgman.

But which one...

Which one would you like to get rid of, Jesse, that Ryan doesn't want you to get rid of?

And this is news to me.

Which one are you wanting to get rid of?

The Conservatory Garden.

There's one that's.

Oh, we can't get rid of that one.

Exactly.

So there's one that I made.

We got engaged in the Conservatory Garden in Central Park, and I wanted to make a collage of it, and it is huge.

It's like three feet long.

It's massive.

And it didn't turn out quite the way I was hoping, but...

It's a collage you made of the place I proposed to you.

We can't get rid of that.

I hid a diamond ring in the collage, so it's also a fun game for guests.

You You hid a diamond ring in the collage?

Not a real one, but like a picture of a diamond ring is one of the pictures

from the magazines that I put in there.

If you had pasted your engagement ring into this collage, I would agree with Ryan.

You should probably not throw it away.

No, excuse me.

It's just a photo.

And then finally, we have a photo here of Ryan as Captain Hook.

See, this is why I didn't know because I didn't review the evidence because I was trying to remain neutral.

That That is actually not a picture of me as Hook.

I am

over his right shoulder as one of the...

That is a different production of Peter Pan that I did.

You're rocking a tambourine in this one.

Yep.

And you're looking, I would say you're looking at the foregrounded actor playing Captain Hook in this other non-Disney Cruise production.

You're looking at Hook with a lot of envy, I will say.

I am his understudy.

Yeah, that's right.

You're hoping that that smee that Captain Hook is sitting on will collapse and then Hook will break his neck

and fall into a crocodile.

And I can step into the limelight.

You're still Peter Pan.

You're Peter Pan at heart.

All right.

Well, this misdirection has basically sealed your fate.

I thought I was looking at a picture of you as Captain Hook.

If I were to rule in your favor, let's just be blunt here before I go in and...

and make my decision.

If I were to rule in your favor, Jesse, what would you have me rule?

I would have you rule that we gracefully and gratefully acknowledge this painting's meaning to Ryan and then discard it.

How would you discard it?

See, that's the tricky thing.

I think, I can't think of a better option than it's like trash or

burial at sea.

Like,

I'm not sure.

What about the free section of Craig's List?

Oh.

Now that would probably work.

Now, Craig happens to be a Judge John Hodgman listener.

I think he could probably hook you up.

Yeah, but don't tell Jesse that Craig's hooking us up because we like to keep secrets from her.

Tell her it's a birthday present.

Yeah.

As a birthday present, I got you one free listing on Craig's list.

You're welcome.

Ryan, if I were to rule in your favor,

what would you have me order?

You're ready to let go of this thing,

but you're not, are you?

You want to replace it with another thing?

If you were to rule in in my favor, I would probably

want you to rule that we put some effort into it and get it a nice frame and find it a place

in our house.

So we can take it out of the closet?

Yes.

Is that where it is now?

It currently hangs on the inside door of a closet, of the linen closet.

Every time I get a towel, I have to look at it.

You don't want to look at it at all ever again.

Um, not really.

And I would settle as a backup verdict that she gets rid of this but gets me a new piece of Peter Pan art.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my Skull Island to contemplate this case, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jesse, how are you feeling about your chances here?

Well, I feel pretty good.

I mean, I would be happy to get Ryan a backup piece of Peter Pan art, and I think we could have a good time selecting that.

So I didn't even realize that was an option.

But if that's the verdict, then that is fine by me.

Framing it would be a little bit more of a pull, because, first of all, very hard to get a frame.

And second of all, have to keep looking at it.

Very hard to get a frame.

Wait, it's very hard to get a frame?

It is if you're not.

Okay, let me rephrase.

It's hard for me to get a frame because I'm not willing to spend a ton of money.

Okay.

I was like, you know, a type of store.

I'm not going to tell you what type it's called, but you probably figure that out.

I'm limiting myself here.

I know it's hard to access specialty retail in New York City.

Well, it is kind of right now.

But maybe if everybody piled into the truck and drove the 40 miles to the Super Kmart, you could find a frame.

I'm sure we could locate one.

Ryan, how are you feeling?

I am feeling pleased as punch.

If I lose the case, I've made my case honestly and fervently, and I can do no more.

I've done my best.

I'll say I don't feel good about the verdict going in my direction, mainly because I believe the judge may or may not be correct in his assessments of Peter Pan and the right to love it as much as I do.

Well, we'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hi, I'm Amber Nash, the voice of Pam Poovy on the groundbreaking FX animated comedy Archer.

Remember Archer?

I sure don't.

That's why I started rephrasing an Archer Rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org.

Join me and a bevy of special guests as we discuss every episode of Archer starting from the very beginning.

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So, join me on rephrasing an Archer Rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org because I can't wait to watch Archer again for the very first time.

The Wizards answer eight by eight.

The Cornclave's call to demonstrate their arcane gift, their single spell.

They number 64

Until a conflagration.

63

and 62 they soon shall be.

As one by one the wizards die,

till one remains to reign on high.

Join us for Taz Royale, an oops all-wizards battle royale season of the adventure zone every other Thursday on maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So, first of all, a verdict on Peter Pan.

I am not here to cancel Peter Pan.

Peter Pan

is obviously a cultural touchstone, as nine-year-old John Hodgman knew and still knows.

And it is so for a reason, because it is

mysterious, weird, complicated.

It's good and it's bad.

It probes strange feelings that people have about childhood.

There are versions of Peter Pan

that celebrate eternal childhood, but it is clear to me, based on my research, that actual Peter Pan doesn't.

And there's lots and lots and lots of culture that has racist stuff in it.

that is either intentional or unintentionally harmful

in the stuff that we love.

And we, you know, we hold our noses or grimace or roll our eyes, say,

when you're showing your kids the movie Peter Pan for the first time, and you completely forgot about what made the Red Man Red, the incredibly offensive racist song in that movie.

You're like, ooh, I forgot about this.

White knuckle through this.

Like, I showed it to my kids.

All I'm saying is,

when you see this stuff, to realize you're holding your nose and to think about why you're doing it.

In fact, don't hold your nose.

Open your nose and breathe in the stink and think about it and talk about it with the people you're sharing it with.

Kids,

for the most part.

And so, part of the reason that I would not cancel Peter Pan is that what is good about it,

we discussed with Jesse Nonthorne earlier, is that like fairy tales, like real fairy tales,

that get plucked from public domain by certain animation companies and kind of spiffed up.

There is a dark strangeness

to Peter Pan.

Peter Pan is not a good guy, nor is he a bad guy.

He is a child, and the exploration of the chaos of childhood is obviously something that resonates deeply with people.

The tension between childhood and leaving childhood is very meaningfully explored in Peter Pan, even though J.M.

Berry himself put in this completely execrable and non-necessary bit of racism because

white guys in England at that time just tossed off racism like it was nothing.

It is a piece of art that is worth engaging in.

And I'm not just saying that because I don't want Disney to cancel me because they own everything.

I want to be MODOC in a Marvel movie.

Please, Disney, please don't cancel me.

Please don't fire me from culture.

And by the way, Warner Brothers, that thing I said about friends,

I still love friends.

And by the way, don't cancel me because I've got this incredible pitch for a friend spin-off put on the air now.

It's more friends who live in a different, it's set in the same time period, exactly the same period as friends, but it's different friends living in a different apartment and they hate the other friends.

You reuse old footage.

It's incredible.

Yeah, see, Ryan likes it.

Sold in the rim with Ryan.

I did watch that show.

Yeah, more friends.

And, you know, they could be a diverse cast.

Like, show what New York was like in the 90s.

Anyway, look.

So I'm not on you, Ryan, for loving Peter Pan.

People like what they like.

They love what they love.

You've obviously explored all of the aspects of Peter Pan.

Now, I thought this thing was going to hinge on nostalgia, the tension, as I say, between,

you know, being a child and growing up.

And I, as you know, I'm against a nostalgia

because it aims to hold on to a past that is usually illusory

and as well suggests that time can go backwards or that you can hold on to the past.

You can hold on to a painting, but you can't hold on to the past.

So you would think I would come down very hard on you, Ryan, not merely for loving this problematic piece of art, not the painting, but the subject,

but also trying to hold on to the past.

But what this hinges on is something that was glossed over very early by Jesse and me, which is this is inscribed to you.

Your name is written on the back from other Jesse.

And when something is given to you and it is inscribed, you can't just put it on the street.

Someone will find it and they'll find out that you don't want the thing that they gave you.

It's horrible.

Like, I'm hoping that Jesse never listens to this podcast.

Other Jesse.

I mean, other, other Jesse.

Jesse Non-Torne Non-Torn.

Because she's going to be hurt, probably, that you want to get rid of this thing.

So the solution is simple.

Jesse Non-Torne Nonthorne, if you're listening,

I am ordering Ryan to keep this treasured gift forever.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Hold.

Okay.

Now that Jesse Nonthorne Nonthorne is no longer listening, and I saved you from that social embarrassment?

You gotta throw this painting into a crocodile quick.

The best place for this thing would be a parent's basement for you to never have to deal with it again.

You never have to give it up,

but you never have to have it.

And then

as you grow older and your parents grow older, and maybe their house accidentally burns down, this problem is solved for you.

The next best place for it to be is for you to send it on a journey

that is appropriate to it, to its sentimental importance to you.

Because here's the thing, Ryan.

I do think that you know, you have said yourself, it would be weird to hang this in my kids' room.

It is a beautiful gesture that someone who cares about you made for you.

at a certain time in your life, but you know that that time is over.

And also, the person you've chosen to spend your life with going forward just doesn't like it.

She doesn't even want to look at it in the closet.

If you had a thousand rooms, would it be fair to say, Jesse Nonthorne, that you would not want to look at this thing?

If we had a thousand rooms,

I actually would feel differently about it.

But we live in one bedroom apartment, so we're kind of low on space.

And I, as a New Yorker, am terrified of acquiring items or having too many items.

All right.

So here's the solution.

Ryan, you're in musical theater, right?

A booming business right now.

Just make a lot of money and get a thousand from Mansion.

And if you can't do that,

then what I would suggest is you leave it in the closet

until such time as time moves forward, not backwards, ever, forward, into a new and better normal that we're all going to make together.

Once we have a vaccine, once we were able to move, once we were able to speak to each other's faces again.

You're going to take other Jesse out to dinner and you're going to say to her, I think that it's time for me to part with this.

I love it, and it will always be meaningful to me.

Do you think you would like to have it back to give to somebody else?

Because if not, my plan is

to fly,

what is it, two stars to the right and straight on till morning?

Second star to the right.

Right, whatever.

I was close.

Fly second star to the right, straight on till morning.

to Disneyland, a place that I love, to get on that Peter Pan dark ride, a thing that I think is great.

It's like you're in a gondola in someone's living room.

I'm going to take the painting with me.

I'm going to get on the ride with the painting,

and I'm going to get off the ride without the painting.

And then I will walk out of Disneyland.

Fling it into the abyss.

I bet she'll be okay with that.

Finally, I order Jesse Nonthorne, your wife, Ryan, to commission from one of your artist friends a painted version of this photo of you, not as Captain Hook,

but as Tri-Corner hat tambourine man in the background, a painted version of that photo with the caption,

I was raised to be charming, not sincere.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Ryan, how do you feel?

Elated.

I think that the judge has honorably and rightfully ruled, and I cannot wait to be arrested by Disney police as I try and leave something on a ride in the middle of the darkness.

Jesse, how about you?

I think having a painting of himself as Tricorn Man with a caption, Charming, Not Sincere, is everything Ryan has ever wanted in life.

So I'm thrilled, and I can't wait to figure out which artist friend would be best suited to create this beautiful piece of artwork.

Jesse, Ryan, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

We'll have swift justice in just a moment.

But first, our thanks to Alex Boochley for naming this week's episode, Never Landmark Case.

If you'd like to name a future episode, make sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho JJ Ho.

And check out the MaxFund subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com to chat about this episode.

We're also on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman, where you can make your own evaluation of the Neverland painting.

Judge John Hodgman produced by the ever-capable Ms.

Jennifer Marmor.

This week's episode, edited by Hannah Smith.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment.

Rebecca asks, Who should clear the last few seconds off the microwave timer at work?

The next person to use it or the monster who stopped it before it was done?

I mean, I know that you got a Brevil smart oven.

You have a microwave, though, right, Jesse?

I do have a microwave, yes.

You ever had that experience when you're walking into the kitchen and you're like, I wonder what time it is?

And you glance at the clock on the microwave and you're like, it's 17 seconds o'clock?

What's going on?

Yes.

Yeah.

And do you do what I do when you realize that the last person who used it, maybe even yourself, didn't clear the timer and therefore you don't know what time it is?

Do you take the microwave and throw it away?

Yeah, typically.

Joel, what do you do?

I reset reset it.

You reset it after you use it?

Any time I see that it's 17 o'clock.

So you're saying that there's someone in your house who maybe doesn't clear the time.

That would be me.

You do it.

You're the monster.

The perpetrator.

All right.

Joel's the monster.

Even the monster knows.

Don't be a monster.

When you're done using that microwave,

Clear the countdown.

Let us know what time it is.

That's all I got.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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