Birthday Parties to the Dispute

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

With me, as always, Judge John Hodgman.

Before we get into the courtroom for this week's case, let's talk about the Max Fun Drive, which is going on right

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Thank you.

You're welcome.

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And instead, getting on with the case.

What's it called, Jesse?

Now, on to this week's case, Birthday Parties to the Dispute.

Ann brings the case against her husband, Kevin.

Anne says that Kevin is too judgmental about how she celebrates her birthday.

He says he doesn't have a problem with birthday celebrations.

He just thinks her side of the family makes too big a deal out of them.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodger enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Oh, my god, that delicious smell,

that intoxicating aroma.

Oh, it's an enchanting emanation.

Judge John Hodgman, that smell can only mean one thing.

Podcast!

Podcast!

It's a podcast.

It's just cooling on that windowsill.

Oh my god, or whatever, we have got to get that podcast.

Oh, you said it, but how?

Oh, there's got to be a way.

Bailiff Jesse, I got it.

I'll just start the podcast.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Ann and Kevin, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that as we record right now, he has a four-inch scar on his forehead because

he was laughing too hard at a British sitcom.

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Anyone who needs to hear that story can ask me in person someday.

In any case, Anne and Kevin, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

And one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that both Bailiff Jesse Thorne and I expertly performed as I entered the courtroom.

Anne, let's start with you.

Okay.

I'm going to say that it's a scene between Gilligan and the skipper from Gilligan's Island.

A Sherwood Schwartz joint.

All right, Sherwood A.

Schwartz, excuse me, a state of Sherwood A.

Schwartz.

Okay, yep, I'll put that in the guess book.

That's a that's a solid guess.

Three-hour tour.

Kevin, what's your guess?

I'm going to guess it is an original Looney Tunes Bugs Bunny Elmer Fudd cartoon circa 1958.

Oh, too bad.

It's 57.

I appreciate your specificity.

I will put that in the guest book, but of course, all guesses, however specific, are wrong.

It's a much more recent piece of culture.

Jesse Thorne, do you want to tell him what it is?

Yeah, that is probably my favorite comedy sketch that I've ever seen performed live.

It's one of the original sketches by the sketch comedy group, The Birthday Boys.

Get it, birthday, birthday.

Okay.

And I don't know what they called it.

Obviously, a stage sketch doesn't exactly have a title card at the beginning of it, but I have always referred to it in my mind as, oh, gotta get that pie.

Yeah, in the sketch, they're not looking for a podcast.

No one's looking for a podcast in this life.

They're all over the place.

They're much harder to get than pies cooling on a windowsill.

But there is a recording of that shot at the UCB Franklin Theater from 2008 that I would highly recommend.

Featuring our friend Mike Mitchell of the Dough Boys, plus all the Birthday Boys.

Do you know who wrote that particular sketch, Jesse?

I don't know.

I would imagine Tim Kalpakis wrote it because it is a very Tim Kalpakis-y sketch comedy premise.

But I think they all work together on those sketches.

I saw that at Sketchfest NYC.

I was there to do the sound of young America, the precursor to Bullseye.

Yeah.

And they put that pie up on a ladder, and they all all got underneath it and said, oh, oh, we got to get that pie.

And I can't even look at a pie without thinking about that.

All right.

That was from the birthday boys.

And so we now roll into the birthday,

well, you know, person, Anne.

Yes.

Would it be all right to say birthday woman?

Sure.

All right.

Yep.

Now we roll into the birthday woman who is having a dispute with her husband, Kevin, over how to celebrate her birthday and would like to have a party and celebrate her time on earth Kevin is like that's boring I don't want to celebrate you I've got that right that's pretty much it that's pretty much it yep and you come to this court seeking justice tell me about the dispute okay well every year around the time of my birthday which is when February 3rd day after Groundhog's Day February 3rd yes Groundhog Boxing Day.

Yes, that's right.

I like that.

I will use that forever.

Well, I just stole from the birthday boys, so I guess you can steal from me.

Yeah, I guess I could ask for permission rather than just declaring.

But anyway.

I didn't ask for permission, so I owe the universe one.

I pay it forward.

Okay, perfect.

So, yes, every year around February 3rd, my birthday will come up.

The way that my birthday is scheduled and due to...

My profession, my birthday always gets crowded out by events, which is fine.

I'm an adult.

And actually, since long before I was an adult, I've always had to kind of reschedule my birthday, which is fine.

We should explain that your profession is groundhog wrangling.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

I'm very exhausted.

I'm exhausted on the third.

What are you?

The mayor of Punks at Dawny?

Exactly.

What is your profession?

I am a singer and a voice teacher.

Oh, and February is your busy month.

It kind of, well, you can laugh, but it's.

Okay, I was, and I apologize.

Yeah, no, it's fine.

Well, yes.

And

I wear, like a lot of professional musicians, I freelance doing lots of different things.

And one of the things I do is music education.

And there are so many festivals at that time of year.

It's just, there's no brainer that there's going to be a festival on or on the weekend of my birthday every year.

Not anymore.

Oh, I know.

Wow.

Woo.

I can really celebrate this year.

Looking forward.

Silver lining.

Yeah, this coming February is probably going to be pretty clear for you.

Yeah.

If I rule in your favor, Kevin's going to be very sad because it's going to be six more weeks of birthday for Anne.

It's true.

It's true.

So, yeah, anyway, well, and then not to mention, it almost always coincides with Super Bowl weekend.

So, with those different icebergs floating in there, I always kind of have to plot when are we going to do this.

So, it does seem like it always comes up as a calendar discussion.

You can't just observe it on the day.

And every year, I feel like Kevin gaslights me and tries to convince me that adults do not celebrate their birthday and makes me feel like I'm somehow weird or entitled or princessy that I want to celebrate my birthday.

Before we get into that serious accusation against Kevin,

how do you like to celebrate your birthday?

Like, for example, this past February, I will give it to you.

Like, just tell us a story about how people used to get together.

Yes, in the before times.

In a restaurant.

Yeah.

How did they do it, Grandma?

How did they celebrate birthday?

So my birthday this year on Groundhog's Day,

I closed a show.

I had my last performance of a show.

And so then that my birthday was a Monday.

And Monday is my big, big, big marathon voice teaching day.

And I hadn't seen my students for about three weeks because I had been in a run of a musical and I needed to rest my voice.

And so I could not reschedule them yet again.

So on my birthday, I went to the dentist in the morning and then I taught nine voice lessons back to back.

And that was my birthday.

So on Tuesday, we had rescheduled with our daughters.

We have two daughters and I feel like it's part of my job as a mom to show them how birthdays are traditionally observed in my culture anyway.

And so we went to a make your own pizza restaurant and had pizza and came home and had ice cream.

My parents live less than a mile from us, so they tagged along.

It was great.

And

I think simple presents were exchanged.

It was not a big deal.

And then what I wanted for my birthday, Kevin and I did not want to to spend any big money on a gift for me.

What I wanted, because I had just finished a show, is Kevin and I went out for dinner the following Friday night.

And that was pretty much my birthday.

So two celebrations.

Mm-hmm.

And you said gifts were exchanged.

Were you passing out gifts on your birthday?

Well, I mean, I was there.

No, I'm just kidding.

No, I was...

No, I did not pass out gifts.

Gifts were transferred.

Gifts were transferred.

Yeah, that's a better way to say it.

Got it.

Gifts were accumulated by you.

Yes.

Yeah.

Right, I got you.

You went to make your own pizza with your daughters and your parents.

And my husband.

Kevin was there too.

Kevin, what if I ruled you didn't have to do that?

What if I ruled you didn't have to go to make your own pizza?

Well, I mean, I like pizza.

Because what I'm hearing is there are two birthday celebrations.

Right.

One family celebration and one

personal celebration between the two of you.

Right.

Is the number of celebrations the issue here?

Or what is your beef?

Yeah, thank you.

Good.

Here's the thing.

I think that there is.

Holy moly, we got Alec Baldwin on the line.

Little

public radio joke.

Sorry.

Do you think I'm Alec Baldwin because I'm handsome?

Is that what you said?

Because you said, yes.

It's because you're handsome.

Yes.

It's not because you said the name of his public radio show, but rather because you are as handsome, as famously handsome person, Alec Baldwin.

Your steely blue eyes.

Also, because you were great in Glen Gary Glen Ross, the movie.

The character that was added for the movie.

Right.

What is an appropriate number of celebrations for an adult's birthday, Judge?

Must we celebrate it on the day and then have a family celebration?

And then, if I'm recalling correctly, Anne also went out to lunch with a colleague to celebrate her birthday a third time.

Now, that's fine, but

what is my responsibility in an appropriate number of celebrations for an adult's birthday?

I understand and accept that for a kid's birthday, you know, there's parties.

You might go to, you know, Chuck E.

Cheese or whatever.

But for an adult's birthday, is there a limit?

Like, should we celebrate multiple times in multiple ways?

And if so, how many, how often?

And what is my responsibility as a loving husband?

Which part of this, Kevin, was the most difficult lift for you?

Was it when you went out to dinner with your children or when you went out to dinner with your wife?

Right.

Thank you.

Yes.

Because those are the things I'm hearing that you did.

These are things I do throughout the year in better circumstances.

Right.

So it's not the act of those things.

Those things are enjoyed by most normal people.

It's that.

This is, I think, one of the conversations that Anne and I have, and I think why she brought this case against me, is the amount of planning and conversation that has to go into the birthday festivities.

Right?

So, I don't mind going out to dinner with my kids or my wife.

In fact, most of the time I enjoy that.

It's the planning that takes place and the conversations that must take place.

Like, you have to decide what toppings to put on the make your own pizza.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Basil.

The kids aren't going to like that.

They're not.

Anchovies.

Anchovies.

Pepperoni might be too spicy.

Some kids don't like pepperoni.

What's their problem?

Correct.

Correct.

That's my question.

That's why I'm standing before the court today is what's the appropriate number of celebrations for an adult's birthday?

And let me be clear.

I love my wife, and I am grateful that she continues to celebrate birthdays, and I want her to continue to do so for as long as humanly possible.

But how many celebrations, how many celebrations is an appropriate number?

So let the record show that I can see the litigants because we are now using teleconferencing to record these.

Let the record show that Anne's jaw dropped in disbelief.

And I'm not sure whether it was dropping in disbelief at Kevin's contention that he doesn't mind how many birthdays she...

He doesn't mind how she celebrates her birthday or his contention that he loves her.

What were you responding to in disbelief?

I guess it was probably, I think what he, now that I'm reviewing it in my mind, he might have just meant he would like me to not die and he'd like me to celebrate multiple birthdays.

But it was the chance, the fact that he used the word celebrate and said, I'd love her to celebrate her birthday, that

has never been uttered.

And I

don't want to give Kevin.

fuel for his fire, but I will say the other thing that he touched on is that I do think he's irritated by the amount of planning and discussion of planning.

That even though they're very small events that don't warrant this much discussion, I think this is something that he brings up about me and dare I say, the female line of my family of origin is the plan.

Okay, so this goes back into your ancestry.

Tell me about the family traditions and tell me about the planning.

Let's hear Kevin make the argument.

May I note, by the way, I don't know where you guys are in the world, but I do know that Anne, you're in a living room.

And Kevin, you're in your shirt closet.

No, I'm in a teaching dungeon.

this is our basement like it's freezing down here there's spiders that's where you do your remote teaching and Kevin you're in the clothes closet of your house right also podcast studio right where are you both in the world yeah we live in Spokane Washington oh all right cool so Kevin I'm gonna let you describe your wife's family's birthday traditions and planning and but as before I do quick question in that closet behind you you got a petard in there because I I want to see you hoist yourself up on it.

What's a petard, Judge?

I don't even know.

I don't think it's even something that would be in a closet.

All right, let's hear it.

What's the complaint about the planning?

What's the complaint about Anne and her family?

So, thank you, Judge.

My wife's family is what I would classify as very planny.

All right, let me give some examples.

It's a planny fam.

That's exactly right.

My wife's mom and her aunts, so my mother-in-law and my mother-in-law's sisters, are so well-known for their planning abilities that, in fact, we and Anne and I have both done this.

We make fun of how far in advance they plan things.

So, right now, we're taping this podcast in the summer.

It would not surprise me to get a text or an email from one of my, from my mother-in-law or one of my mother-in-law's sisters to start planning the Thanksgiving meal or the Christmas holiday meal.

Like, they just think that far in advance.

And I'm talking

spreadsheets and multiple emails.

And in fact, one aunt goes so far as to say, when we gather, please make sure you have, you know, who's bringing the salt, who's bringing the pepper, are there any additional utensils that need to be brought?

How many packets of salt and pepper?

Because we're going to assume that each person may use one to two packets per day and then, you know, have some equations where it's all worked itself out.

I have a

lot of questions.

Keep talking.

So, this level,

as you can see, Judge, this level of planniness is,

well, it can be overwhelming at times.

So here's a couple of things.

One, I have to live up to this level of planniness, the level of detail and care, if we can call it that, that goes into planning these events.

This is a lifetime of planning and care that my mother-in-law has given to my wife.

And now here I am.

Just trying to be a loving husband, just trying to do some nice things for my wife.

And I can't possibly live up to it.

So what happens is there's multiple celebrations, there's multiple plans to be made, multiple decisions to make, and it's too much, it's too many, it's too much and too many.

I think there's just, it's maybe oppressive amount of birthday that has to be planned and celebrated every year.

Kevin, what are some examples of decisions that you had to get involved in planning for this birthday that we heard described.

A dinner out with just your wife and a dinner out at a family restaurant with your children and in-laws.

Yeah, tell me about the spreadsheet for the make your own pizza.

Well, first of all, we have to decide when and where we're going to go.

And that could take several phone calls or texts or emails.

What day of the week is best?

What time of day is best?

And then

what restaurant?

Because there's, as in I think probably most American families these days, certain dietary restrictions, right?

Who's eating gluten and who can't eat gluten and sugar and not sugar?

Right, right, right.

So, what restaurant we're going to go to, what time we're going to go there, and who's going to drive what vehicles.

And

here's the thing: we ended up settling on a restaurant that is literally walking distance from our neighborhood, and it took several different conversations to make sure that all of it could happen.

Were you party to these conversations?

I was party to many of these conversations, yes.

Why?

Thank you.

Thank you, Judge.

Thank you.

I'm not going to rest my case, but I feel vindicated.

Thank you.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to

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Let him know Jesse and John sent you.

And why was Kevin part of these conversations?

He doesn't care.

Well, I would just say that his part in the conversation, and I mean, I guess he can counter sue for me to not do this, was for me to go, okay, my parents want to know if we want a carpool over there.

Do you care?

Okay, you don't care.

Okay, mom, we'll just drive our own car.

Like, that's so I could just make, you know.

Have you ever lobbed that kind of information at Kevin where the answer is, do you care?

Has he ever said, I do care?

But the records show

Kevin's in his clothes closet shaking his head.

Yeah, that's well.

Kevin does not care.

He looks like my dog Coco if she caught a squirrel.

Yeah.

Yes, I think that the.

Overall marriage history of all plans, any decisions ever, the answer would probably be be in the single digits, the number of times Kevin has had an opinion or cared about what we're going to plan our.

So you're looping him in as a courtesy?

Well, yeah, and I want, you know, I want to

grow with him in our marriage, so I feel like it'd be good for him to know what's going on.

And it sounds like you also want to honor your family tradition.

Planning makes me happy.

I'm not going to lie.

I would, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, tell me about that feeling when you're planning.

Well, for sure, I will absolutely 100% stipulate to some control issues.

You betcha, I got it.

Big time.

And so, there is some security in feeling like you have some sort of control over your life.

I know it's an illusion, but don't tell my conscious self that.

And then the other thing is that I think it's fun.

And I don't mean to interrupt you, but just don't let your conscious self read the newspaper.

Oh, I know.

Give it a year.

I know.

I know.

I know.

Yeah.

No, and I think the other thing is I just think it's really fun to try on different possible adventures.

And even if the adventure is just, should we go to this pizza restaurant where you pick your own toppings?

Or should we drive out to another part of town and go to this Asian fusion restaurant we like to go to?

I just think it's fun to consider possibilities of future plans.

I think it's fun to talk about.

Kevin, do you take pleasure in planning yourself?

No, sir.

None at all.

Not even your own

shirt

schemes?

I am only saying that because you're background buys some beautiful shirts.

No, in fact, I...

Please let Kevin answer the question, man.

You're part of my plan.

Don't worry.

I'll get back to you.

I

don't like plans.

I don't avoid them,

but

the conversations, especially with my wife's family, around planning is

significant, is detail-oriented and sometimes are around details that just don't need it it's not important for example what shirt am I going to wear tomorrow or later this week especially in the time that we're living it doesn't matter what you wear ever right we're living in very specific times true but what I'm just trying to ascertain is that you know because I feel and I like to plan

But when other people are planning, not only does it annoy me because those plans are going to be wrong and I should be making them.

But since they are going to be wrong, because I'm not making them, I'd rather not know about them and just be told what to do.

Do you know what I mean?

So I'm asking you, like, you obviously seem completely disinterested in the planning hobby, the back and forth and calls and texts and emails that belongs to Anne and her side of the family.

And I just want to verify that for yourself, you take no innate pleasure in planning for yourself either.

Correct.

I do not.

I do not.

This is not a situation where the crux is you feel like you could pick a better make your own pizza restaurant.

No.

And you're mad because you're not given that.

You feel like that's being taken away from you.

Not at all.

Not at all.

In fact, just tell me when and where to show up and I will show up and be

happy and celebratory about it.

Which make your own pizza restaurant?

We can buzz market now because all these businesses need help.

Which make your own pizza restaurant in Spokane did you go to?

Well, here in Spokane, there's a restaurant called Maud,

which is an acronym for Made on Demand.

Maud Pizza.

Yeah, see, Ann, because I got five

in the Spokane area.

I just looked up five better make-your-own pizza restaurants.

You made a big mistake.

I'm so sorry.

Huge.

Also, it would have been a lot easier.

I mean, just thinking, because I know you could walk from your neighborhood.

I could have plotted through a much better carpooling option than the one you did, I'm sure.

I'm sure you could.

I'm just looking at the map of Spokane right now.

it's like a beautiful mind up in here.

I'm seeing equations.

I only go to rocker, make your own pizza restaurants.

Right.

But, you know, we're held together by our Dr.

Martin's boots.

It took me a long time to get that joke, Jesse.

No, it was barely a joke.

I mean, joke even seems generous.

Are you a mod or a rocker?

All right.

So, Kevin, how do you feel about your own birthday?

Do you celebrate it?

When is your birthday?

Do you know?

My birthday is in July.

July 30th is my birthday.

Oh, coming right up as of this recording.

Yes, yes.

What are you going to do?

What's the plan?

Well, we're going camping.

My family and I are going camping because that's the time that we could get away, and we're going to go to the woods and

sleep outside.

Nothing goes better without planning than camping.

Just a spontaneous.

Let's see.

What do I need?

What I'm wearing?

Maybe this flashlight?

A pen.

That's pretty good.

Let's go.

Yes.

To answer your question more generally, I don't have a need to celebrate my birthday.

I like it to be acknowledged, like, hey, you were born.

Good job.

But we don't have to have parties.

I don't get it.

I don't get why some people make a big, big deal about birthdays, especially as an adult.

Yeah, you opened your arguments with a kind of rhetorical question.

How many birthdays is it inappropriate for an adult to celebrate?

Yes.

And I chose not to answer that question because, A, it was rhetorical.

And B, this podcast is not about my making a moral judgment.

It is my making a practical judgment about whether or not one of your behaviors is causing the other one hardship that needs to be addressed.

But let's go into the realm of the purely intellectual.

In your mind, Kevin, should adults celebrate their birthday?

Is there something unseemly about adults celebrating their birthday to your mind?

In general, no.

To be more specific.

Specifically, my wife, yes.

Well, no.

I think I'm reacting to a couple of things.

I'm reacting to people who make their birthdays a huge deal.

Like, my wife does not do this, and so I will admit and state that for the record.

But

there are some people who will say.

I'm not sure we'd be here if you didn't.

Okay.

There are some people who say like, it's my birthday week or it's my birthday month and there's multiple celebrations and they'll, you know, get on social media or whatever and share like,

it's my birthday week and multiple celebrations and multiple pictures.

I find that unseemly.

I think that's just too much.

Too much.

But in general, no,

I think that adults are...

It's good to celebrate milestones.

Good job.

You've survived another year on this planet, which lately is a feat.

It's not getting any easier, that's for sure.

It's not.

But I think the people that put too fine a point on celebrating their birthdays, I could do without that.

I'm going to admit a little bit of bias.

I'm not going to recuse myself.

But I do have a certain bias.

It's like we've had some birthday week conversations on this podcast before.

And there is a little bit of an internal cringe for me when people seem to be celebrating themselves that hard.

I get it.

But none of those people are married to you.

And my question is, Kevin,

do you think that, say, this last birthday was too much?

Was it too much?

Honestly, you're under fake oath.

I'm not talking about the planning.

That's a separate issue.

I'm talking about the celebration of your wife's birth.

Did she overdo it in your mind?

We came right off of that.

We went to go make your own pizza.

And you said some adults go to Chuck E.

Cheese.

And I was feeling like, oh, yeah, there's a thin line between make your own pizza and Chuck E.

Cheese.

And Kevin is blurring that line on purpose.

I felt that.

Gaslighting.

It's gaslighting.

Typically, that line is defended by a series of animatronic musicians.

Was it too much, Kevin?

This year, no, it was not too much.

Because I will acknowledge and admit that the time of year that Anne celebrates her birthday is very busy.

There's multiple things going on, and so it is appropriate and good to find some time to acknowledge and celebrate your birthday.

This year,

it was perfectly fine.

I feel, I don't, I don't believe you.

I'm sorry.

I'm holding you in contempt of court.

I think you are concerned.

I don't think we would be here if you didn't think it was too much, a little bit too much.

I mean, you opened your argument with, I don't think adults should celebrate their birthday in a certain way.

Why would we be here if you didn't have this feeling about your own beloved Dan?

She knows you love her.

I know you love her.

But this had to have been somewhat too much, or else we wouldn't be here.

Let me ask you this question.

Yes.

If you had been offered the opportunity

to not go go to grown-up Chuck E.

Cheese, but just take your wife out to dinner for her birthday,

would you have taken that opportunity?

Yes, without question.

No hesitation.

Ah, okay, see, now I believe you.

Thank you.

Let the record show Anne is speechless.

No, I'm trying to be respectful and not talk, but oh, I got things to say.

Well, the plaintiff may respond.

Well, I think for me, the reason that I brought the suit in the first place is

Kevin generally,

well, not generally, always is willing to hang out and do pretty much whatever with me happily, it seems like.

And so I don't think any of the plans are the problem.

But in the middle of it, it just seems like somewhere in the run-up to the festivity or festivities, he'll say this line, like, I don't get why your family, I don't get why your family makes such a big deal about birthdays, like adult birthdays specifically.

He's like, I just have never known anybody that makes such a big deal about birthdays for adults.

And so

I don't want to do my own crux finding, but I think part of it is that he is such a giving,

he is the giver in our relationship.

And I think I'm the taker.

So it just makes me feel like I'm being princessy and that I'm being demanding.

And like,

but like, am I really?

I just wanted to go out for dinners.

That's so, okay.

Maybe I'm being too demanding.

Yeah, but wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Okay.

I feel you on this.

Like, Kevin's saying adults don't celebrate their birthday like this

is gaslighting.

I'll just

lay that out there.

Pre-verdict verdict.

Right?

Because that's an argument that is saying, you're not normal.

And I know what normal is, and this isn't it.

When what he really wants to say is, I don't like this and I don't want to be a part of it.

Right?

Because there are lots of people who celebrate their birthdays like this well at every age, you know?

Even bigger, even bigger celebrations, even more ludicrous.

Like there are adults who probably go to real Chuck E.

Cheese, not fake yuppie Chuck E.

Cheese like you want to.

Right.

Well, and I was going to say, even the other thing is, is his family, I did submit some evidence that his family celebrates birthdays, his family of origin.

Yes, I see the evidence here.

All these photos, of course, will be placed on the Judge John Hodgman page at maximumfund.org.

Most of this evidence are pictures of your cat, Asher.

Well, I like it.

I like it when Jesse laughs at pets.

I can't deny it.

You got, if you're, look,

I'm not a dancing monkey.

No offense.

It's fine.

It is established precedent on this program that if you want me to laugh at a picture of your pet, your pet has to be doing a dumb, funny thing.

Just a cat.

Look, it's a beautiful cat.

I encourage everyone to go to Instagram/slash judgejohn Hodgman.

Take a look at this beautiful cat.

Asher's got beautiful eyes.

But

put a chef hat on it or something.

Wait a minute.

Asher, let me just say this.

Asher looks great.

Jesse's right.

He's got an ⁇ is it a he

cat?

It is.

He's got incredible eyes, very judgmental.

Kind of looks like a Mandalorian.

But Jesse, look at the one where he's got the magic wand in his paws.

He's about to cast a spell.

Oh, that's a magic wand.

I thought it was a ray of sunlight.

Yeah, well.

I mean, this cat thinks he's magic.

That's pretty funny.

What's he going to do?

Cast a spell?

Come on, give me a break.

It's a cat.

Cat's a spell, right, Jesse?

Cat's a spell.

Cat's a magic spell.

All right, and we have a statement from Kimberly, Kevin's younger sister.

Wait, what?

I'm writing today in support of Anne.

Yes.

What did my sister say in support of Anne?

I'm sorry you were not provided discovery when this was submitted into evidence.

This is a gross malpractice, Anne.

You had to have shown in your evidence.

Then hear this.

I'm going to read it out loud in court.

Oh, boy.

Okay.

I'm writing today in support of Anne and in support of birthday celebrations and the inherent right to celebrate them.

The facts are, Growing up in the last name redacted household, Kevin's household, birthdays were celebrated, particularly as children.

We had some roaring birthday parties as children, with magicians involved.

As adults, birthdays continue to be honored and celebrated.

Though they have become increasingly met with resistance by Kevin as the years go on.

Anne is not unreasonable in her desire to celebrate her birthday.

To her knowledge, she hasn't hired a magician, not once.

Have you, Anne?

No.

Mostly it involves going out to eat in small gatherings with friends.

Allow me to offer this interpretation.

All right, Kimberly.

Birthday celebrations aren't just for the person who's being celebrated.

Perhaps recognition and attention on your birthday brings to mind thoughts of mortality.

Oh boy, I love where Kimberly's going now.

Mortality, fear of time slipping away, aging, change, unmet expectations, and the unknown.

The gifts, the celebrations, they seem unnecessary.

All of a sudden, Kimberly is...

is in a Paris cafe in black and white.

Why celebrate getting older?

Because birthday celebrations aren't about getting older.

Allow the people in your life to celebrate your existence and significance in their lives by honoring the day that you arrived.

If you hadn't arrived, their lives wouldn't be the same.

Let them have that joy.

My brother, Kevin, let them have that joy signed Kimmy.

I didn't know Kimberly was nicknamed Kimmy.

It's the darkest letter signed Kimmy I've ever read.

All right.

But Kevin, you submitted some counter-evidence.

The red birthday plate.

Yes, the red birthday plate is my counter.

I did not have time to gather a friend of the court brief like my wife did.

But the evidence I've submitted is a red birthday plate which says in white lettering around the edges, you are special today.

Yes, I see it here.

Early in our marriage, I learned that when we celebrated birthdays in my in-laws home, they would take the plate down off of the shelf and serve a meal to the birthday boy or girl, or the celebrant, if you will, on that plate.

This plate had a place of honor above my mother-in-law's sink for several years.

Until very recently, it's gone missing, which I had no part in whatsoever.

Yeah,

I know where it is.

It's smashed up in the bottom in that closet behind you.

I deny that vehemently, Judge.

That is not true.

But this was one of my first exposures to the amount of intensity with which my in-laws' family celebrates birthdays.

A special plate that you only eat off of once a year?

Sure.

Your Honor, that's a little weird, right?

Yeah, I don't need to ask you if you found that to be a little weird.

Your tone of voice conveyed that perfectly.

Thank you.

And what do you think happened to this You Are Special Today plate?

Probably that my mom changed her decorating color scheme and put it away.

It was all red for a long time.

It had been, it had been above the sink for years.

Well, I don't want to take away Kevin's one piece of evidence, so I'll try not to argue too strongly about this.

But I literally can remember two times in my life that I ever ate off that birthday plate growing up in the house.

I think she kept it because it's red, and she is committed to her red color scheme in her kitchen, and it is called the red plate because it's red.

Who's gaslighting room now, Anne?

Are you telling Kevin that his lived experience of watching your mother take the plate off the wall to give to the birthday celebrant, that his lived experience of observing that was only the product of his lying eyes, that it meant nothing?

She only had it because it was red?

How dare you?

How dare you?

I am actually going to say that that is,

to my memory, that plate has not been used in the time of our marriage.

Yeah.

Kevin, everybody has a you are a special plate above their sink.

No, I don't think

they are mass-produced, though.

Kevin, do you want to respond to that

open gaslighting?

I mean, that was an unsealed burner on a gas stove.

Now, I can't remember if it actually happened.

Here's what I do remember.

I know it was above the sink.

I know it was above the sink for many, many years.

And I know that my first response was, huh, a birthday plate?

That's weird.

Now, whether or not I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was taken off of the shelf and served on a table, well, now

my mind's all mixed up.

I don't know what to believe anymore.

One of those intergenerational family mysteries like the Greyhouse from Judge John Hodgman year one that maybe never chased down exactly.

All right.

We've got to move along here.

Kevin, if I were to rule in in your favor, what would you have me rule?

I would ask you to rule, Judge, that one significant celebration per year per adult birthday is sufficient.

So just one.

Yes, sir.

Just one.

So either Anne has dinner with you

or

make your own pizza with the gang

and you'll show up if you feel good about it.

When you say it like that, Judge, it sounds like a threat.

No.

Well, that's either two or one.

There are two before in the future that you want there to be one.

Your Honor, what I'm here is to answer the rhetorical question I asked at the beginning of the episode, which is how many, how often, and how much?

Rhetorical questions don't have answers.

They're out of order, sir.

Kevin?

Yes, sir.

Has Kimmy always been an existentialist philosopher?

No.

No.

Well, here's one.

May I just add this to the evidence presented?

My sister, who is several years younger than I, her birthday is only seven days before mine.

And so most of our growing up years, we celebrated one birthday celebration for both of us, which is why when we were children, it was such a big deal.

Our birthdays are only seven days apart.

And she's your younger sister.

That's correct.

And so all of my birthdays as a child were both and,

right?

So we had to do do the G.I.

Joe and the Barbie and the, you know, the baseball and the ponies or whatever.

Metaphorically, of course.

So

you've had this psychic wound since, you know, near birth of having your birthday stolen from you year after year.

You never had a UR Special Today plate in your life.

It was always you and Kimmy.

And now you're trying to solve that wound by taking Anne's birthday away from her.

Sir, my question to you is, I appreciate your going into your clothes closet to record much better acoustics than where I feel you probably wanted to record, which was sitting on the floor of the shower while crying.

Also true, yes.

Kevin, my question for you is, what is your problem with pony baseball, the sport of kings?

Anne, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

I'm recovering from the shock.

Man, my mind is blown.

There's a whole,

I had no idea that it was causing him that pain.

Okay,

I would like you to rule that he just not say

that my family makes, just don't say it out, think it, fine, but don't say it out loud around my birthday time that I make too big of a deal out of my birthday.

And then, you know, honestly, that's it.

Just don't say that I make too big of a deal out of my birthday.

That's what I would like you to roll.

Okay, I've heard everything I need to.

I'm going to go into my bouncy house that I have installed here in my chambers.

Hang on.

I'm going to wipe down my bouncy house with Purell first, and then I'm going to go into it, consider my verdict.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

And how are you feeling about your chances?

Well, I mean, I feel like what I'm asking is pretty small.

So

I feel pretty good about my chances.

I feel pretty firmly that birthdays are real and that a lot of adults celebrate their birthday.

I feel like I'm standing on strong ground right now.

Do you think that you would be capable of delivering a birthday celebration that didn't require your husband's approval at every twist and turn in the planning narrative?

You know, I probably could do that.

I probably could give him a break on the planning updates.

Kevin, how are you feeling about your chance?

Well, I think the judge made it clear he's not going to answer my rhetorical question.

It was all riding on that, that and the pony baseball thing.

That's right.

That was it.

I'm reeling somewhat from the psychological wound that the judge just uncovered from my childhood.

But I'll be honest with you, Bailiff Thorne, I think the judge is going to rule in favor of Anne because everyone deserves to have a birthday.

And if I can extricate myself from the extensive planning process, that will be fine.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom for more justice.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Sorry, I just got lost.

I was somehow transported back to the Daly Cafe

during my college college years in New Haven, Connecticut, smoking a Galoise, rereading this existential tract by Kimmy.

There's a lot going on in this letter.

A lot that I agree with.

You know, I admitted my bias towards your point of view, Kevin, that

kids enjoy birthdays because they're kids.

And young people...

enjoy birthdays because they're young and there is the sense that your life is important that starts to get interrogated and ultimately evaporates when you hit middle age.

And then as you get older, birthdays take a new significance because, you know, beyond middle age, it's kind of amazing that you're living as old as you are.

And the people who love you want to celebrate you and celebrate that in you.

But there is this moment in the middle.

And I'm aware of your ages from this document.

I'm aware of my own age.

We're in the middle together somewhere, which is this sort of gray area between the exuberance of youth and self-celebration of youth

and then the sort of honorific celebration of older age.

We here in the middle matter nothing.

We are being abandoned by our children as they go on to their own lives, and we are witnessing the end of life of many of our own parents and grandparents, if we're lucky, still grandparents, and so forth.

It is definitely a time

when one might be inclined

naturally to sit in one's shirt closet and close the door on one's birthday.

I mean, so you chose where to go.

I'd know instead go sit in the closet.

Whereas others, like Anne, might look around the four walls of her remote learning teaching dungeon or wherever she is in the basement of your home in Spokane and be like, I want to get out there and have fun.

It's still my birthday.

I'm still young.

Both of those impulses are natural and normal and deserve respect, mutual respect, either both ways.

I mean, this is going to be one, Kevin, honestly, where

the ruling is really based on what you guys asked me to rule, right?

Because

Anne is absolutely correct

that it is inappropriate for you to,

you know, guilt her around her birthday by trying to suggest this is not how birthdays are celebrated.

That is a form of gaslighting, of psychological manipulation.

By the same token,

Anne, you are not allowed to gaslight Kevin into believing that your family

didn't have this You Are Special Today plate.

And it obviously touched a nerve in him.

I mean, whether my psychological read,

whether my frankly,

Langley quality psychological profile of Kevin is correct or not, he saw what he saw.

And when he saw that You Are Special Today plate, for whatever reason, it weirded him out.

You know, the celebration of one's specialness.

We are all special, obviously.

But people have different comfort levels at different times in their lives at how special we are allowed to say we are.

Do you know what I mean?

And Kevin's just in a place where, and, you know,

that plate is a little bit like, I don't know if that's a little, as we've said, unseemly.

It's a charming family tradition in your house, which you get to enjoy.

But you also, in the same way, Kevin can't yuck your yum, as

my brother and me would say.

Nor can you deny that your family has a certain way of doing things that is not in the same,

that causes a little friction in Kevin's inner life, right?

Now,

I can't rule that you should only have one celebration because you had two in February and they were fine.

There was one crypto visit to Chuck E.

Cheese, adult Chuck E.

Cheese,

that Kevin

did not think was fun, but went anyway because he loves you.

And then one, you know, intimate private dinner between the two of you, which was, I presume, much more to Kevin's liking, as we know, because he said he would have opted out of the, out of the one or the other.

And both of those are fine.

You know what I mean?

I have to find in your favor, Anne,

because all you're asking is that your husband not emotionally manipulate you during this period of time.

That rather he be straightforward in expressing his contempt for your choices, acknowledging that they're your choices, that they fall into your family's tradition, but they're not his thing, right?

That's at least truthful.

Do you know what I mean?

So, obviously, I'm going to find an ann's favor, but Anne,

I need you to listen to this.

Kevin doesn't want to be looped in.

Kevin doesn't need to be looped in.

The pleasure that you take in planning does not give Kevin any pleasure.

So when you're cooking this stuff up

with your fam, with your planny fam, just have fun on your own.

That's your thing.

It's not Kevin's thing.

Tell him when to show up and tell him how many packets of salt to bring.

How come we didn't talk about that more?

Don't you people own salt and pepper shakers?

Is that illegal in Spokane?

Why are you bringing packets of salt and pepper to Thanksgiving?

Kevin doesn't need to be in the spreadsheet for these big events that you do, whether it's your birthday or anything else.

That I think is fair.

There are people in my life, well, my dad,

who wants to know where we're going to be at 3 p.m., August 19th, 2021, so that he can plan when to visit us.

That's not, that's at a time when we're all supposed to be lessening the burden on each other, the psychological burden, at the very least.

You know, he doesn't need that psychological burden.

So lift it, take that off his shoulders.

And I think if you do that, there'll be a lot less conflict around these events in general.

I don't think, Kevin, honestly, if Anne gives you the option to skip out on yuppie chucky cheese in the future, probably don't.

That's not cool.

Don't do that.

Go to our birthday parties.

Right, good idea.

I mean,

I know that you weren't really going to do it, but we were just trying to get some hard truths there.

And, you know, insofar as you ask Kevin to respect your feelings about this arbitrary date that has no meaning whatsoever, even you know, and changed once we shifted from the Justinian to the Gregorian calendar.

It's just arbitrary.

Like, let him have his feelings, let Anne have her feelings, and make an anchovy pizza for me, please, because no one ever gets one.

And also, get salt and pepper shakers in your lives.

They're a pretty good invention.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules out as all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Kevin, how do you feel?

Quite frankly, I think this was as I expected the judge to rule, and I will abide by it, and I will enjoy celebrating my wife's birthday the next time it comes around.

And how are you feeling?

I feel really good.

I got what I asked for, and I now know that.

I will not involve him in any of the planning of it, but boy, I better come hard with some sort of baseball-themed birthday party for Kevin every year so that he feels fulfilled from what he got left out of.

Listen, I'm a big baseball fan, I'll tell you.

First step is renting the ponies.

After that,

everything else is pretty straightforward.

And Kevin, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

So, once again, before we go, I just want to say thank you again to all of our listeners, all of our members, for supporting whatever great maximum fun content you have been able to support.

We're truly grateful that you've chosen to step up to the plate for us

and support us and helping us be able to create this show.

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And, you know,

I don't want to belabor the point, but, you know, when Jesse pointed out that 70%

of what makes Max Fun go

is listener support, I mean, I wasn't totally feigning surprise.

It astonishes me every time I realize

not only that such a large portion of what makes the show go comes directly from listeners, but how great that is.

What an incredible vote of confidence in us that is.

And what a wonderful way to make podcasts or any creative endeavor because we know we are beholden to you, we are making it for you, and we're glad and grateful to do it.

So, thank you.

If you want to become a member, you haven't had a chance yet.

It's at maximumfund.org/slash join.

And thanks.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank,

I'm going to say

Rebbe Stains,

but could be Reeb Steins, could be Rebe

Stainis.

Really, not a name I am confident I know how to pronounce.

But thank you for helping us name this week's episode.

If you want to name a future episode, you can like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

We regularly put out our calls for submissions there.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H.

O.

And check out the Max Fund subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com to discuss this episode.

We are on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman, complete with photographs of magical cats.

This week's episode, edited by Hannah Smith, our producer is the ever-capable and right now childless.

Yes, that's right.

The babies with the grandparents.

Oh.

So mommy can produce podcasts.

Sorry, Jennifer.

Jennifer Marmer.

Hey, Jesse, let me just jump in to confirm Tim Kalpakis did write the Birthday Boys sketch.

We got to get that pie.

I have that on good authority from former Birthday Boy Mike Mitchell of the Doughboys.

There you go.

Thanks for letting us steal your work.

Oh, we got to get that pie.

That pie.

It's on Vimeo, right?

People can search for Birthday Boys pie and they'll find it.

Yeah, it's very good.

Okay, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Meg asks, can I put jam on a fried egg sandwich?

I think it's delicious.

My husband acts like I'm committing a federal crime in the kitchen.

Oh, this is a hard one because I was, I just,

I mean,

I love a fried egg sandwich so much, and jam would definitely yuck my yum.

But that said, if it's your yum, I can't yuck it.

As gross as that sounds to me, Meg,

based on the precedent just set, on this very podcast, I got to say, go for it, Meg.

It is not a felony to add jam to a fried egg sandwich.

It is, frankly, a misdemeanor in my eyes, but you go for it.

Yeah, I want to make it clear that I'm pressuring my representatives to make it a felony to feed me a fried egg sandwich with jam on it.

Yeah, that's right.

If you are making your husband eat that jammy fried egg, then you should go to jail.

That's terrible.

But go ahead.

Do whatever you want to your taste buds.

They're yours.

I support it.

I'm excited anytime I hear about some weird sandwiches somebody's eating, like the security guard puppet on the public television show Today's special.

I am, I'll tell you what, anytime I get an email where the subject line is sandwich, I am not excited.

That's just because

I've been traumatized by the Is a Hot Dog a Sandwich debate.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJ Ho or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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