Vampirical Evidence

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

With me, as always, the judge himself, Judge John Hodgman.

We're going to go into the courtroom in just a second.

But first, this is week two of the Max Fun Drive.

Yeah, thank you so much for making week one so great.

I mean, look, we wanted to keep this, you know, max fun, but min drive because it's such a strange time.

But everyone, in their own low-key and wonderful and supportive way, just all the shout-outs on Twitter, all the fun times we had together on the pub quiz, frankly, it's been just a wonderful distraction for me and obviously a huge boon to Maximum Fun.

Because, you know, without Max Fun, without its members, we couldn't keep doing this show this time or any time.

Maximum Fun is audience supported, which means we're free to make the content you enjoy because people like you become members and contribute.

We'll talk more about the Max Fun Drive later on in the show, but you can become a member now at maximumfund.org slash join.

That's maximumfund.org slash join.

Any level that you're comfortable with, and you can check out the great thank you gifts we have this year there too.

It's maximumfund.org slash join.

Now, on to this week's case, vampirical evidence.

Bethany brings the case against her wife Heather.

Heather refuses to watch the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Bethany says, since they love the show, they should watch the final season so they can fully appreciate it.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

How could it possibly get uglier?

I used to be a highly respected watcher, and now I'm a wounded podcaster with the mystical strength of a doily.

I just wish I could sleep.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear him in.

Bethany, Heather, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, in in nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that Draculas can have any job, even judge?

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I forgot.

I forgot.

I forgot about your Dracula trigger.

How could I have forgotten how much you hate Draculas?

I think the number one thing I hate is those gosh darn Draculas.

I know.

They can have any job, right, Jesse?

Any job of any crane operator, for example.

Yeah, I don't think,

I guess they could be a nighttime solar panel installer.

Arborist?

Yeah, well, nighttime arborist.

Watch out for flying splinters.

Oh, there's a voice.

We'll introduce that voice in a moment.

But in the meantime, Bethany and Heather, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Bethany, let's start with you.

Bethany, do you have a guess?

I have no idea.

I'm going to guess the season eight of Buffy, which was

in comic book form.

Season eight of Buffy, which was in comic book form.

Now, Heather,

you have not seen season seven, right?

That's the last televised season.

That's the point of this dispute.

Yeah, I have not seen it, but I know a lot that happens in it.

You know a lot about it, and you know a lot about the extra comic book seasons, too.

You're a real...

What's in the world of Buffy fandom?

Like, you know, like

a Jimmy Buffett fan would be a parrot head.

Is there a name for someone who is not a fan of Jimmy Buffett necessarily, but instead a fan of Jimmy Buffy, the vampire slayer?

I'm actually not sure what...

we're called.

Okay.

Interesting.

Maybe there isn't a term.

We'll find out later, how about that?

But in the meantime, do you have a guess as to what piece of culture I was quoting or paraphrasing, I should say?

I'm going to say, I'm not 100%, I'm not sure.

I'm going to say Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the movie?

Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the movie, which of course predated the television show, by some years.

How many years?

I'm not sure I can remember.

Good thing we have an expert.

Coming in soon, flying in, as Draculas are wont to do in the form of a bat, because our incredible expert witness Jane Espenson is here one of the top writers for Buffy the Vampire Slayer wouldn't you say Jane you wouldn't oh absolutely oh I was gonna say you're you wouldn't because you're modest

but no

and you're I would not you should not be modest because Jane Espenson is amazing Jane can you guess which thing I was quoting?

I really like that guess that it was the movie because because otherwise I do not know.

Well, there's no reason you should know because I don't think you worked on this episode.

In fact, or maybe you did, and maybe it was a long time ago.

But in fact, spoiler alert, that was a quote from Giles from the very last filmed episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season 7, episode 22, Chosen, when they're playing Dungeons and Dragons.

I looked it up on IMDb, had to, because guess what?

I haven't seen that episode either.

But you know what episode I did see?

End of Days, the one right before it, the Penultimate episode, which credits you as co-writer of that episode, Jane.

Do you remember that one?

I do, because I looked it up yesterday.

Feels like a long time ago, doesn't it?

Well, it was a long time ago.

Yes, it really genuinely was.

Hey, everybody who's within the sound of my voice, please welcome to the podcast.

I mean, Stand up, if you're not driving, in front of your internet radio and give a standing ovation to Jane Espenson.

She's a TV writer and one of the best people in the world.

She wrote for all your favorites Once Upon a Time.

She was the showrunner of Caprica, the spin-off of Battlestar Galactica.

She wrote for Battlestar Galactica, including one very special episode

featuring the miscasting of me, John Hodgman, and, of course, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

And she's, are you allowed to say what you're working on now?

I believe I am.

I'm working on a show called The Nevers coming to HBO next year.

Another Joss Whedon joint, correct?

That's right.

Yeah.

So

how did you get involved with the Buffy the Vampire Slayer world?

I was a TV writer working in comedy, and I saw the show Buffy and said, I want to switch to one-hour television to write for that show.

And you said that into the air, and a Dracula made it happen for you.

Kind of.

I wrote a spec episode of NYPD Blue so that I would have a one-hour writing sample and took it in.

Interesting.

And got hired.

So you were just like, give me any one-hour drama.

Just get me off of this comedy stuff.

No, not at all.

It was very much, I want to work on Buffy.

Right, okay.

Not being an employed television writer, Jane, I don't understand why.

Is there a reason why you would write a spec script for NYPD Blue if you really wanted to write for Buffy?

That was the way it was done.

Really?

You never wrote an episode of the show you wanted to write for.

You wrote a show for another show entirely that just is the same length as the show you want to write for.

So if you wrote a spec script for the show you wanted to join, you would look like a real rookie.

Yes.

Like a real Nathan Phillian on the rookie.

Yes, I could not have said that better.

And so do you understand the dispute here, Jane?

Yes, I do.

Let me give you some background.

Bethany and Heather, we have them on the line here.

They've been together since 2008.

They've been married since 2011.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

And where do you live, Bethany?

We live in Tucson, Arizona.

And Heather,

how did this dispute arise between you and Bethany with regard to season seven of Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

Well, honestly, I didn't even know it was a dispute up until like a year ago.

I just thought it was like something that like I I just never was going to do.

And then she one day just started coming up to me like, you should really watch season seven of Buffy.

And I'm like, no.

She's like, you should really watch season seven of Buffy.

And I'm like, no.

So it's been a lot of,

you know,

back and forth of like, you know, I know the re, I understand the reasons why she wants me to watch it, but.

Well, it would seem like, do you like the show, Heather?

I absolutely love it.

I mean,

people who like the shows tend to like to watch the the shows, all of the ones that were made.

Is there a reason that you've avoided season seven?

Yes.

Technically.

Well, actually, I have three reasons.

And

they're all around my three favorite characters, which is Tara, Anya, and Buffy.

And I feel like

they weren't

treated as a bad person.

Hang on, hang on.

Hang on.

Jane Esponson is in the room.

How many seasons did you work on, Jane?

I worked on season three through seven.

Three through seven.

So

what do we call fans of Buffy, Jane?

Do they have a name?

You know,

we can say Buffheads, but I don't think that's right.

I don't think that's right.

Bufferoos, I think, is technically Bufferoos.

Bufferoo bonsais?

Yeah.

Nice.

Okay, so Heather, a true bufferoo bonsai

would not hold back their opinion.

even of a thing they love, even in the presence of one of the co-creators of the thing they love.

So you go ahead and say your truth.

My truth.

Okay.

How did Jane Espenson personally mess up the story arc of your three favorite characters?

Well, to start out with Tara,

she was like such an amazing addition to the show.

And

she's actually like one of the first episodes that I ever watched.

She was in.

I came a little bit later to the Buffy thing during season six.

So, yeah, I was actually, I recorded the musical episode for a girlfriend at the time in high school and I sat down and watched it and I just kind of fell in love with it.

And

I hung out with a lot of Xena fans who weren't into Buffy.

So when I became a Buffy fan, I didn't have a lot of like

Buffy fans to hang out with, but

it really did matter because, you know,

it was a really great show.

And

yeah, and Tara just like spoke to me and like how she, like the character, where she came came from and who she became and only to

get

like, okay, bye.

Like, it was sucky, you know, and I know that.

What happened that you didn't like?

Ah, uh,

well, um, I might get a little for clumped talking about this, but uh.

Oh, I'm counting on it.

Um, but also also be, you know, be reasonably specific so people who have it who might not know this character or know the show intimately can kind of follow along along with your emotional journey.

All right.

So, um, like, Tara is Willow's girlfriend, and um,

uh, they broke up, which was so like devastating.

But, you know, when they finally got back together, things seemed like it was going to be great.

And then there are these three nerds in season six: Jonathan, Warren, and Andrew.

And

Buffy, like,

gets, like, foils Warren's plan one too many times.

So instead of like going at her with like mystical things, he goes in with a gun and starts shooting, and Buffy gets shot and Tara gets shot, and then Tara dies, and Willow goes crazy.

And you didn't like the way that, the way that played out.

You felt that that was disrespectful to the character that you loved.

Yes, because after everything that like Tara, like her character went through and how they built her up to be like this like amazing character, not just to Willow, but also to like Buffy.

She started becoming really good friends with Buffy and was there for her when Buffy didn't really have anybody else to talk to so and then just for them to just be like okay this is how um Tara is you know

got it

you're still feeling it you're still feeling it yeah every day wow and we're and does this go back to your first watching experience like when it was on the air yes right so this and so sometime back in the early 2000s

you saw this episode, you saw season six, and you made a decision.

You're like, I don't think season seven is for me.

I'm a little upset about this.

I'm going to know everything about season seven and the comics and everything else, but I just don't feel like watching it.

Would that be a fair assessment of what happened?

Yeah, and I just, I don't know, like watching season seven without Tara would be really sucky.

Yeah, so you made, so you made a choice.

And was this before you, this was before you and Bethany met?

Yes.

Right.

So this is, this predates your relationship.

First of all, just a quick follow-up, Heather, if you don't mind.

Yeah.

You said you had been hanging around a bunch of Xena Warrior Princess fans.

That's my jam.

That's my jam.

Many, many Xena conventions I've gone to.

I met Bruce Campbell.

Whoa,

you're talking about friend of the show, Bruce Campbell?

Yeah.

I love Bruce Campbell.

Jesse, have we had Bruce Campbell on the podcast?

We haven't had Bruce Campbell on the podcast, which seems like an oversight given that you used to be his literary agent.

Yeah,

we got to make a note.

Let's get Bruce Campbell on the podcast.

Was there a rivalry between the Buffaro Bonsai's and the Xenons?

Well, I kind of found that.

Did you catch heat for going to Buffy after you liked

Xena so much?

I didn't know.

I felt, yeah, I kind of felt like it was kind of like I'm still really good friends with the girl who I met through Xena.

And then I was actually, it's kind of funny because, you know, I'm.

I'm pretty gay,

but I was in the GJRS Romantic Society.

What is Gabrielle and Joxer Romantic Society, which I think is really funny.

Yeah, I know.

Sometimes I sing the Joxer the Mighty song to myself.

Oh, me too.

Me too.

I just want everyone to know I have no idea what you're talking about.

Joxer the Mighty.

Ted Raimi.

That's the brother of Sam Raimi playing Joxer.

Yes.

I'm building up a lot of headcanon right now.

But yeah, no, Xena was a big part of my life.

And when I started watching Buffy, my Xena friends were just like, traitor.

They were not very happy.

But really?

I ended up like, I love Xena, but Buffy ended up speaking to me more.

Right, until it stopped, until it stopped speaking to you.

Or it said the wrong thing.

Yeah, season one through the episode right before Tara gets shot.

I'm all on board.

I'll watch those no matter like all day, every day.

Jane Espenson, I miss all these shows so much.

I know.

It was a golden age.

It really was.

I mean, I guess there's stuff out out there like this now that people like so much, but

it feels like a special time.

Was it a special time?

It was for me.

I was employed on my favorite show.

Yeah.

How do you feel about when a fan who is clearly as

devoted and thoughtful as Heather

takes a real issue with the treatment of a character?

Oh, it's hard to do anything but agree.

I mean,

show is a is

every viewer of every show is in love with the show in their head.

That's a combination of what we give them and what they bring to it from their own lives.

So there is no telling any fan that they're wrong or mistaken or took something the wrong way or here was our intent because that show, they're legitimately describing the show that they experienced.

So

your feelings are absolutely valid.

And I feel like I should emphasize that that often killing a character

gives that actor so much to do.

And, you know,

it's not something that's generally done as a punishment.

That's an interesting point because, I mean, I would think killing a character makes it so that they

can't be on the show anymore and they lose the job.

Like, say, if one was killed in only their second episode of Blindspawn.

That did not feel like I got something to do.

That felt like I got something taken away from me that was very special.

On Buffy, you know, a character can be dead and can come back.

So, you know, when Jonathan died, I knew that wasn't Danny Strong's last time on the show.

Let's take a quick break from the courtroom to talk about this year's Max FunDrive.

We'll be back in there in just a minute with more about Bethany and Heather.

And, of course, expert witness Jane Espenson.

It is Max FunDrive.

I have been watching

all the tweets with the hashtag Max Fundrive.

I was up at my cabin taking a little mental health break, and I did check in a few times, and

this is the best part of the drive for us, is seeing the kind things that people say.

One of them was from At Terrence Bell.

They wrote, in recognition of the kindness of Jesse Thorne and how much joy and laughter Hodgman and Sawbones have brought into our lives, I've purchased my daughter Madison

a membership to Maximum Fund HQ as part of a cobbled together present for her 16th birthday this Tuesday.

Money well spent.

Happy birthday, Madison.

Happy birthday, Madison.

A big, big shout out from someone named Enrique

to iPodius, the podcast he made, because last year's Max Fun Drive was a success.

Enrique GG says, I'm enjoying the iPodius podcast so much.

I just made my first donation.

Thank you.

thank you I mean iPodius started as a joke during the last Max Fun drive as a as a gag as a dare

that if we reached a certain level of membership I would force Elliot Kalen to do a dedicated miniseries podcast about the miniseries iClaudius and it ended up being

one of the most wonderful experiences I've ever had and so much fun how much fun people had with it.

It was so

generous of people to take their time to watch this 1976 miniseries.

miniseries.

I mean, one of the things that makes Max Fun so special is that we're not putting podcasts out into a void.

I feel like whether it's through social media

or the virtual stuff we've been doing during the Max Fun Drive, and each and every time we sit down to podcast, I feel like we're in a conversation with a group of listeners whom I really enjoy, who really make me laugh as much as I hope I make them laugh, who provide me with as much happy distraction as I hope that we we provide for you.

And hearing from you about how much you value our work and the works of other shows on Max Fun, particularly during this time of social distancing, has been so, so gratifying.

I mean, this has been hard.

But having familiar voices to make us laugh and think, to interact with, to help us feel normal.

I mean,

it's extremely important to all of us.

And, you know, if that sounds like you and you're able to go to maximumfund.org/slash join and help us out during this time and help us keep this going, please do so.

But if you're not in a position to do that right now, this spreading the word is not only make us feel happy, but it helps get the word out there to those who may be able to help.

So thank you for that.

Yeah, you can join us starting at $5 a month for, it's now like hundreds of episodes of bonus content across the network, all of which you can listen to in your favorite podcast app.

If you join us at $10 a month, you get a Max Fun membership card, a cool pin, you get all the bonus content, $20 a month, you get this year's special gift, a Max Fun game pack with custom dice and a custom deck of playing cards, which is really cool.

The playing cards have Max Fun in jokes throughout.

They're really great.

All you have to do is go to maximumfund.org/slash join to become a member.

And this week, John,

there's a new thing we're doing, which is some people people often ask us, they say, like, listen, I can't get to the next, the next membership level.

This week,

we're offering boosts.

So if you're already a member and you want to bump it up a few dollars or $5 or $10 or whatever it is, $3, $2, you can do that now at maximumfun.org slash join.

Most importantly, though, you know, our show and all the shows at Maximum Fun and all the employees at Maximum Fun and all the creators at Maximum Fun really are directly supported by members.

It is a one-to-one thing.

This is what makes this possible.

And so we really want to express our thanks to everybody who's able to become a member of Maximum Fund.

I know, you know,

in this scary time, it has been a great comfort to me that our members have stood up for us and

allowed us to continue this somewhat goofy enterprise.

It means a lot, and we're grateful to everybody who can make it happen.

Well, Jesse, can I just say a thing about the

podcast network that you founded and the mission that you created by founding it?

It's not goofy.

Don't say that about this.

It's not goofy.

I know you're self-deprecating.

But one of the things that's really true and has become clearer in this time more than ever.

There are things that movies can do.

There are things that TV shows can do in terms of spectacle, in terms of surprise,

in terms of enjoyment that podcasts can't quite do.

But there's something that podcasts do, I think, almost better than anything, any other form of media, and that is to keep you company.

You know, podcasts live in your car, in your earbuds as you're falling asleep,

you know, when you're doing your overnight shift at your job.

And they keep me company when I'm alone.

And I'm grateful to be able to keep you company when you're alone, particularly during this time when so many of us are literally alone.

And I really want to extend our special thanks to those of you who are in healthcare and retail

and teaching and other essential jobs right now.

We're thinking about you a lot when we make these shows.

We're grateful for the work that you do.

We hope that Judge Sean Hodgman and all of the Max Fun shows are a good diversion for you right now.

And we

hope we're supporting you in the work that you're doing in return.

So I just want to say to the whole community, you know, I think podcasts keep you company.

And what's special about Maximum Fun is that the Max Fund community keeps us company right back.

And whether it's going to maximumfund.org slash join and helping out at this time if you can,

or whether it's just spreading the word and shooting us a line, it's been so, so less lonely knowing that you're out there.

So thank you.

You could join us at maximumfund.org slash join.

Let's get back to the case.

So Bethany, it sounds like Heather made a, you know, a pretty reasonable adult decision to not continue watching the show.

Tell me why you feel it's important that Heather watch the final season, the seventh season, and overall, what the show has meant in your lives together.

Well, yeah, so my argument for why I would like Heather to watch season seven with me is kind of twofold.

And the first is just that I think, you know, when we're talking about Buffy, I want us both to have the full understanding of the entire series.

And I know that Heather knows the major plot points that happen in Season 7, but has not experienced all of it.

I think that...

Heather, you have watched a couple of the early episodes, but not in a long time and not much.

So I would just like

for us to both have, you know, the same understanding of Buffy as a series, which I don't think Heather can have without watching all of it.

And secondarily, I think that there are some great redeeming parts in season seven that Heather would really appreciate, especially as regards one of Heather's favorite characters.

The one we were just discussing or a different one?

Oh, no.

Dawn, who Heather also really loves.

Dawn has some really great moments in season seven.

You really see her kind of come into her own as like a person rather than as this like mystical character that she was in season five, rather than being just like the Slayer's baby sister who's kind of underfoot.

She really, you know, there's an episode called Potential where like she really has her moment and you kind of see the young woman that she's like grown into who's a hero in her own right.

Even though she doesn't have mystical powers like Buffy does.

So Heather, are you aware of Dawn's arc as just described?

Yes.

By Bethany.

I am indeed.

I do love Dawn a lot.

But this is not a deal maker for you.

No.

All right.

So, Bethany, have you seen all seven seasons?

Have you seen every episode of season seven?

Yes.

And what's your Buffalo Bonsai journey?

How did you come to the show?

And

had you watched it before you two got together?

Oh, absolutely.

Okay.

So you had seen it all the way through i don't think i'd seen every single episode before heather and i started dating but i had watched a lot of it um especially um like seasons four and five you know when there's a lot of uh willow and terra um and i'd seen a lot of um

season two um but i don't think i'd watched all of it all the way through until we watched it together So

you were dating as you were working your own way through Buffy.

What was your reaction when you realized that Heather had not seen the last season?

Shock?

Dismay.

Can you describe what happened?

Where were you?

And

how did it come up?

I actually can't remember the exact moment when I realized that Heather had not watched season seven and was not going to.

You were probably watching one of the season six episodes.

I'm like, okay, I'm done.

It was probably Heather calling it quits at a strategic moment in season six

that I fully realized.

But

it's been something that, you know, I've been aware of for, you know, a decade.

Right.

So for 10 years,

you've been trying to get them to watch this season of television.

And now it comes to this courtroom to decide what will happen.

Yes.

Why can't you just let Heather

have it Heather's way?

Why does it bother you so much?

Bethany.

I I just want to experience it together.

You know, I think that there are some really poignant moments that I'd like to enjoy together.

You know, kind of like Dawn's storyline, you know, some of the other really good episodes in season seven.

I would just, I would just like to experience it with my wife.

So, Heather, Bethany feels like the two of you are really missing out on an experience together because you don't want to watch this season.

You wouldn't watch it just to make your wife happy?

I mean, it pulls my heartstrings, and I've thought about it.

I just, I think I need a little bit more persuading.

I don't know.

What could persuade you?

It's been a decade.

I guess only you.

Me?

Your ruling.

A decisive ruling.

So Judge John Hodgman could persuade you, not the person you've chosen to spend your life with.

Well, she knows why, though, why I don't really want to watch season seven.

Bethany, are you a completist by nature?

Yes.

How could you tell?

Well, I mean,

have you read all the comics, the extra seasons?

I haven't.

No!

Incompletist!

I did read season 8.

It really became a different medium and felt like a different thing to me than the series did.

Right, it wasn't the show that you loved because it went in a direction you didn't feel comfortable with.

And therefore, you made an adult choice to disengage from it and remember the thing you loved.

Is that fair to say?

Bethany?

It changed from a show to a comic book.

Oh, so comic books are a lesser art form.

Oh, no.

Jane, remind me, there's a season eight in comic book form and a season nine in comic book form.

I know I have written many Buffy comics and I believe that did go into higher season numbers, yes.

Yeah, right, exactly.

So, yeah.

Would you say that to be a true Buffy completist, you would have had to read those comics, and that therefore Bethany is a hypocrite?

I mean, I'm not putting words in your mouth.

I think you're making a really interesting case, and you may be convincing me, because I came in with a different opinion about this.

Oh, yeah.

What was your opinion as you came in and how is that changing as we speak?

Oh, actually, no, no, it's the same opinion.

You're just making it stronger and zestier.

No, I feel that Heather shouldn't have to watch it if they don't want to watch it.

I know what it is to have something where you feel that little spike of panic when a video starts running of like, I'm not going to like this.

And it really does feel like panic.

And I wouldn't wouldn't want anyone to have to feel that.

And I think you are you are poking John in a very effective way at a strong argument that I hadn't thought of.

Well, is there any show or movie or whatever where you where you loved it but you had to tap out because it just wasn't going where you wanted it to go?

I'm thinking of it myself.

Like, I feel like the first

two

seasons of Lost

were

like

they're my favorite thing of all time.

And then it started going in directions that I felt were less interesting and dramatically productive for me.

And I did not get mad at it.

Indeed, I watched it.

I mean, I watched it all, but not because I felt it was my homework.

Like, it still gave me basic pleasure to watch it.

But there was a point where I was just like, this is a different show now.

Love you guys.

Have fun on your journey.

I'm along for it, but I just can't be in it the same way.

Yeah, I tapped out of glee that way.

Yeah, interesting.

It happens.

It happens.

It does.

And yeah, and I think if there were something that legit hurt my soul if I were watching a show, so it wasn't just like, I still love it, but like, oh, that, that hurt me because I had bonded with a character.

Yeah, I would definitely tap out.

Yeah.

Bethany, I was needling you a little bit for

being A, not a true completist because because you hadn't read the comics, and B,

being an elitist snob because you think comics aren't as good as television.

I know that you don't feel that way.

Good.

Heather has expressed a high emotional stake,

whether you describe it as anxiety or pain, as Jane was pointing it out, or something else.

A high emotional trigger potential in watching season seven.

that they wish to avoid.

Bethany, do you have a similar kind of emotional feeling of missing outness, a fear of missing seasons

when you have not watched a whole thing?

Because you describe yourself as a completist.

I mean, I do like to finish things, but I don't think that I feel any panic or anything like that.

It's really more, it's not that everything has to be finished.

It's really this one thing, you know, I mean, it is one of the things that we talked about, I think, the first night that we ever spent time together.

Like, it just has been a constant in our relationship for as long as we've known each other.

So I think this thing is different from most other things.

Why do you think it's so meaningful to you?

Willow and Tara was, they were one of the first lesbian couples on...

primetime TV.

Yeah.

One of the first, if not the first, lesbian kiss on primetime television.

And it, and it wasn't done to titillate or for ratings or anything like that.

You know, Willow and Tara really were treated as a real couple, just like any other couple on that show.

And it wasn't something that I think Heather and I had like seen in a show that we related to as much or that felt as current and relevant for us.

Yeah, you saw it and you felt seen.

But Heather, you kind of jumped in with a little comment there that I couldn't quite hear when Bethany was talking about the first kiss on first.

Oh, I was like, a lot a lot of ti shows at that time were having people like in like Ellen McPhee, like they were having people make out, like two ladies make out and like other things, women make out, just for ratings.

And that's not what they did on Buffy, which really made, like, made everything more real.

It never felt exploitative.

Yeah.

Yeah.

By the way, there was a kiss earlier than Buffy on Ellen,

which I also wrote for her.

Yes.

Oh.

So

I know for a fact because I wrote both of them that the Ellen one was first.

You wrote both the kisses?

Thank you.

I wrote on both shows.

And I definitely wrote kisses on Ellen, but I don't know that I wrote.

I didn't write the first one, definitely, because that was the season before I was there.

Was there a discussion in the room about what Bethany and Heather are talking about?

How to portray this relationship and to portray this relationship?

Yes, and they're absolutely right.

It was not about ratings.

It was very much Joss saying, this is a thing missing from our show.

It feels right for these characters

that we're going to do because it's right for our story and it's right for the world.

And

they will definitely be treated like

any other couple on the show.

Jane, I want to compliment you on how that felt in the show.

And also,

as someone who really hates vampires,

I call them Draculas.

I'm really grateful at how you portrayed those of us who hate Draculas.

Thank you.

That means a lot.

A lot of people just do it for ratings, is what I imagine.

But Jesse, there's some pretty good Draculas on the show.

There's some good guy Draculas, right?

Yeah, I think there are some good guy Draculas on Bubby.

Yeah.

Do you feel that that is a misrepresentation of Draculas in real life?

I think we should be suspicious of all Draculas.

I guess it's conceivable there could be a good Dracula, but I've never met one.

Your legend of intolerance continues.

Is there any other shows that you two are into

where a dispute like this has come up?

There's really nothing that we have had this kind of dispute on.

Like Jane mentioned, Heather did stop watching Glee, and I finished it, but

I don't wish that on Heather.

You're a complicated person.

I don't want to inflict that.

I think that has to be taken on by choice.

Sometimes the journey of the completist is a lonely one.

So true.

Yeah, just ask the people who are finally getting to this episode of Judge John Hodgman 12 years from now.

Let's put a pin in that.

I'll discuss that in my verdict.

You say this has been going on for 10 years.

How often does it come up?

Oh, um, a few times a week.

Whoa, what?

Yeah.

Wow.

That was, that was Heather and I

object.

Heather said a few times a week and Bethany objects.

Is that correct?

Do I understand this correctly?

What is your objection, Bethany?

I think that maybe it's come up a few times a week recently because we knew that, you know, this dispute was going to be settled once and for all.

So obviously we're bringing it all up now.

Okay.

Because after today, it's going to be

said and done.

I think before that it came up only occasionally,

once a month or less.

Once or twice a month, maybe.

I don't know.

Once or twice a month for 10 years.

I know it's still a lot of times.

That's 120 or 240 times.

Thank you, Jesse, for doing the math.

I'm really very bad at math.

It's really terrible.

Jane Esmondson, I can't subtract.

Did you know that?

I didn't know that.

And I shocked.

Give me a subtraction problem.

14 minus 9.

I don't know.

Wait a minute.

14.

It's either 13 or 15, I'm pretty sure.

Oh, wow.

I'm genuinely stumped.

Very bad problem.

Genuinely stumped.

Now

give me an addition problem.

9 plus 14.

That's

23.

Yes.

Look, just, I mean, it took me a second, but I got there pretty well.

You have to admit.

I do.

I do admit.

14 minus 10 would be 4.

Never mind.

Never mind.

Oh, five.

The answer is five.

Did I get it right?

That's right.

That's correct.

You did eventually wander your way there.

Can't do it.

Can't do the math, but those are numbers.

The point is, Bethany and Heather, these are numbers.

You're putting up real numbers.

And how does the dispute manifest?

Like sniping?

Or like sobbing fights?

Or

just bringing it up.

If I'm watching a season,

I'll get to a certain episode of season six and then start back to a certain other season.

And then every time I do that, she's like, well, you know, you could just watch season seven.

And I'm like, yes, but I won't.

And then it just is like a cycle of like, every time I'm like watching Buffy.

And that's quite a lot, actually.

Yeah.

how many, how much, how much, how many times are you watching Buffy during the week?

And remember, I don't do math.

Oh, my goodness.

Is it part of your daily routine?

Pretty much, I watch it like six or seven times a week, depending on.

It's just a feel-good show for me, even though lots of crazy things happen.

Oh, boy, oh, boy.

And then how much other stuff are you watching?

Right now, actually, I'm I'm watching Grey's Anatomy.

But we finished Castle Rock, which is good.

What else?

Season two?

Oh, this last.

Yes, best season.

Season one was so good, but season two is so much better.

Lizzie Kaplan.

Lizzie Kaplan.

Excellent.

Yeah.

Do you know I have a friend who writes on that show named Obehee Janice, and she's also an incredible actor, and she's on a TV show that I wrote, co-wrote with my friend David Reese called Town.

It's got a dirty name.

I'm sorry.

We'll have to watch it.

You don't have to watch any.

Look,

this is what it comes down to, right?

Do you have to watch something?

Or do you have choice and autonomy in this life?

Are you bound by the desire for completionism?

Minus comic books, obviously.

Or are you bound by your own personal preferences

and being in touch with knowing what actually makes you happy?

Bethany.

Yes.

I know what you want.

You want me to make Heather watch this thing.

I want you to look deep in your soul and answer me as truly as possible, using more than one word if possible.

How do you think it would feel

to be sitting down and watching season seven with your beloved because a man on a podcast made them do it?

It started out as a good feeling, right, until I

talked about the man on the podcast.

And it's starting to feel weird, right?

It's not just any man, you know.

Yeah.

It's a judge.

I think that I could push past the fact that Heather is only doing it by court order and still

have a great time

and really enjoy it.

Would you feel excited?

Yes.

Would your heart beat a little faster?

Probably.

Would it be beating a little faster because you never thought thought this day would come?

Yes.

Or would it be beating faster because

you finally got your way?

I mean, both.

You know what?

I appreciate your honesty.

Heather.

Yeah.

Do you take any pleasure in denying

Bethany this desire to watch season seven with you?

Is this fun for you?

No, no.

I hate saying no, like, because I know it's something that she wants me to do.

So so it's hard to say no, but I'm, right now I'm sticking to my guns.

Is there something that if I were to rule in your favor and say you don't have to watch season seven, is there something you can offer in compensation?

A season of some other show that maybe

Bethany wants you to watch, or a...

a special meal to be paid for or prepared or something else adorable.

I'll finish the good place with her.

Yes, you must finish the good place.

Wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

Bethany, you haven't finished the good place?

Not yet.

It's because of me because I haven't been wanting to watch it, so.

But I will watch it with her.

Heather has offered to finish the good place with you.

Is this a point of dispute?

It's not a point of dispute, but it is something that I have been wanting to finish and always intended to, whether Heather wanted to watch it with me or not.

So you're saying Heather's offer is is no offer at all?

Pretty much.

Well, I would have finished it either way, but it would be lovely to watch with Heather.

Before I go into my screening room and make my decision, Jane Espenson, any last thoughts that might affect my decision?

There is an episode in season seven called Storyteller that I wrote that I'm that

Tom Lank does such a great job with it, and it's such a unique, zesty little episode

that it

Heather, you might enjoy that one, but I wouldn't,

you know, it's entirely, if you think it would delight you, that might be the one to watch.

But that's all I have to say.

Not Conversations with the Dead People, your Hugo Award winner?

Also, also

pretty cool.

Sorry, that was Bethany.

I think that one's my favorite.

I go for comedy.

I will always pick comedy.

Let the record show that Bethany is extremely adept at manipulating the expert witness, or at least trying to.

Yeah, we can hear Jane Espenson blushing for my notes.

Too true.

Before I go into my chambers then, Heather,

would you watch that episode if I were to order it?

Yes.

All right.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Okay.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my private screening room where the bootleg VHS copy of Brass Eye is on Constant Loop.

And I will be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Bethany, how are you feeling about your chances?

Really bad.

But

I knew I was probably fighting a losing battle since

the judge says, you know, people don't like what they don't like.

Did you know that I haven't watched the end of my favorite television show of all time?

What is it?

The Wire.

Is it because you don't want it to end?

Yeah, I got upset that it was going to be over.

Yeah.

I mean, at the end, maybe, like,

maybe the final season isn't the strongest season of the show, but that wasn't why at all.

Like, it truly was just because I got sad that I wouldn't get to watch The Wire anymore.

Yeah, that's what I thought, Heather.

I thought that's what your issue was going to be.

And so

I'm sorry to hear that it was Tara, and I'm very sorry.

Heather, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling

okay.

If I win, I win.

And if I don't, then Bethany is going to be super stoked.

That's a generous way to think of it.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

This is a long one.

That's because I don't want it to end.

I don't want it to end.

I like talking to Bethany, and I like talking to Heather.

You're adorable and smart and funny and great.

Jane Espinson, you know how I feel.

I hope you do.

One of my very favorite people in the world.

You made my dream come true to be on Battlestar Galactica.

Yeah, you're very welcome.

Well,

maybe I shouldn't have been so welcome.

You were awesome.

You were fantastic.

Well, that's kind of you to say.

But when I first accidentally went on television and I got a big agent, they're like, what do you want to do, John?

What do you want to do?

You can do anything you want.

And I'm like, I don't belong on television.

You're being absurd.

I guess I would like, I would be in a dream to be on Battlestar Galactica.

But don't go too far.

You know, don't push on that.

And the next thing I know, I got this offer to be on Battlestar Galactica on an episode written by Jane Espenson, whom I had already met at that This American Life thing in Los Angeles and adored.

and admired.

And I looked through the script, and do you know what, Jane?

I had one of the most terrified feelings of my life because you gave me lines.

I did.

You had to say words.

I didn't want to talk on the show.

The most I wanted to say was, I, I.

That's all I didn't want to be.

I wanted to be like a space bartender mopping up a space bar with a space rag.

You know what I mean?

I just wanted to be, I wanted to be like Pee-Wee Herman at the end of Pee-Wee's Big Adventure in the background of of his own movie.

Paging Mr.

Herman.

That's all I wanted.

Like, you took work away from Canadian actors and gave it to me.

I don't know whether it was good or bad for the show.

All I know is it was one of the best days of my life.

And then hanging out with you in Vancouver afterward, and we had dinner, and Edward James almost came over.

Holy moly.

Bethany and Heather, are you hearing this?

Yep.

Yeah.

It's amazing.

I got to be inside television.

Because

I'm like you two.

I watch it.

I love it.

It was a real Pandora's box that I walked into, getting to be inside television.

It was too much for me.

I bet.

It was too overwhelming.

Because these things that we love,

they're real in our heads.

That's what makes our connection to them so strong.

And not that I didn't have a great time

with Katie Sackoff and Michael Trucco and all the other great actors that I got to pretend to be an actor with.

We all had a good time.

But, you know, it was weird to be there on the set and know that at that point the show was coming to an end, you know?

to be there with the actors as they talked about how their real lives were going to change and they're going to move back to LA or they had to line up another job.

It took me out of the show that I loved in a way.

Even though I was in it, it took me out of it.

And in many ways, the show did to me

what I did to other viewers of the show as the internet reported the moment my big old face showed up on television.

I took them out of it.

Took them out of their show.

They're like, what's the PC doing there?

Get him off the screen.

It was a great experience.

But these things are real.

And I truly, I was with Jane.

I thought for sure

that Heather was going to come in here going like, I don't want to watch the seventh season because then it will finally be over.

And as long as I never watch the seventh season, It'll be like the chapter of my favorite book that I slow walk through.

I just don't want it to end.

And if I watch the seventh season, it'll finally be over because, of course, those comic books don't count patui, the worst comic books.

But that's not what Heather reported.

What Heather reported was, Bethany, as you heard, you were here, and apparently you've been married for years and together for a decade.

We've heard at least, what was it, 120 to 240 times, Jesse?

Yeah, that's correct.

That Heather had an adverse emotional reaction to the way a favorite character and an on-screen relationship that was so meaningful to you both was handled.

And no discredit, no discredit to

the makers of TV shows.

They got to make the TV show the way they make the TV show.

That's the way it goes.

But there are times when the real show that you have conjured in your head had bonded the collaboration that happens between

a single viewer, reader, listener, and a beloved piece of culture had come to an end.

And I mean, I don't think you're going to be surprised, Bethany, that I feel like that end has to be respected.

Bethany, as I mentioned before, a completist's road is a lonely road.

I understand the impulse to want to read every little bit of that comic book, every last issue of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen by Alan Moore,

and the illustrator whose name I forgot, and I'm going to get really mad because he's a brilliant illustrator.

And I'm sorry to mention comic books in front of you because obviously they're garbage.

But, you know, I like them.

And yet, sometimes that becomes a slog and a burden.

I don't think that that's what's going on with you.

And season seven of Buffy,

Bethany.

No.

I I don't think that's going on with you at all.

I don't think you're one of those completists who have to feel a compulsion to absorb culture completely and in a certain way.

This message is not for you.

This message is for all the poor, lonely souls that I hear from on Twitter and the Maximum Fun subreddit and in my email saying,

I just finally got halfway through your podcast after three years of listening.

Can't wait for the next six years of stuff you've already recorded.

I'll get there eventually.

This message is for all of you JJ Ho completists out there.

You're off the hook.

You don't have to do what you're doing.

I know Jesse told you in an episode number that you probably remember and noted down.

That the way to listen to a podcast is the most recent episode and then start from the beginning.

But if you're truly a completist, you know that I disagree with him.

Then you listen to whatever you want in whatever order you want.

The show changes, it's different.

Maybe the show you love, the Judge John Hodgman you love, ended at episode 200.

I know there are people who stopped listening after we stopped with the soft jazz and clearing the docket at the end of the episode.

That's their Judge John Hodgman.

Just as Heather's Buffy ended

in season six

and/or continues in her own fanfic and brain and head cannon and everything else.

And if this were merely a question of Heather being sad or afraid to finish a thing, then I would order in your favor.

Because finishing a thing when you don't want to let it go,

that's a thing that has to happen.

That's a grown-up, hard, but it's part of absorbing the whole thing, the whole piece of culture that you love.

But not finishing a thing because

you feel like it went in a direction that I don't like anymore.

And it honestly is painful for me to contemplate watching it.

That's NG.

It stands for no good.

Can't order that.

People like what they like.

People don't like what they don't like.

People can't like what they haven't seen.

But Heather shouldn't be forced to watch something that they don't want to watch, that they are concerned, especially if they're concerned that it would be emotionally painful.

Just so

their most beloved person on earth, that's you, Bethany, can check off some box.

However, in the spirit of compromise and marital surrender, which in a good marriage, everyone surrenders all the time,

both ways.

If I were you, Bethany, I would take Heather's good faith offer to watch the episode that Jane recommended.

Which one is it again, Jane?

Storyteller.

Storyteller?

I I would take that and run with it.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Heather, how do you feel?

Darn good.

But I love my wife, so I don't want to see her sad.

How about you, Bethany?

I knew it was, you know, I knew it was a long shot, so I feel all right.

I'm glad to have it settled.

Jane, how do you feel?

I feel fantastic.

I think that was a good verdict.

And

it was lovely to get to meet you, Bethany and Heather.

It was nice talking to you.

It was amazing to talk to you.

Yeah, you're one of our heroes.

Yes.

Oh, yay.

Before we go, do you have any other questions you want to talk to Jane?

Because you will never speak to her again.

Jane, what is your favorite show that you have never written on?

Great question.

Oh, boy.

If you're opening up to all of history, I got to say MASH.

God, I would have loved to have been a writer back in the era of writing for MASH.

Yeah.

You would be a great MASH writer.

I would have loved that.

Come on.

What would it take to reboot MASH?

I mean, that's, I feel like just because we said it, it's happening now.

Jane, is there anything you want to let people know about before you go back off into the late night of London, England?

Just thanks everyone for continuing to watch Buffy.

I'm delighted to hear people still sit down and watch it as a daily experience.

Amazing.

They said six or seven times a week.

If I'm doing my math right, that's 120 times a month.

That's right.

Yep.

Jane, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

Bethany and Heather, thanks so much for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

It was a pleasure.

Yes.

Had fun.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

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Thank you for making this show and all of our work possible.

The fact that we are able to do this independently with direct support from our audience

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Thank you.

Now, before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Kathleen O'Donnell for naming this week's episode Vampirical Evidence.

If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out our calls for submissions there.

Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

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This week's episode was recorded by Jim Blackwood at Arizona Public Media and our friend Ben Partridge in London, England.

Thanks to Ben Partridge, the host of the brilliant and amazing Beef and Dairy Network podcast,

one of the most hilarious shows in the entire MaxFun lineup, if you've never checked it out at all, man, man, it's so funny.

I think it might be

my favorite funny one.

I love it so much.

This episode produced by Jennifer Marmer and Hannah Smith.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Tara says, I say we need several cheese knives for cheeses of different textures.

My husband says we just need a regular kitchen knife.

I feel only a former monger of cheese can help us resolve this disagreement.

Disqualified.

Please note.

Throw them out.

Please note, right?

No, I got to finish reading this.

Please note my terrible use of puns is not on trial.

Oh, I'm sorry.

It is.

It is, madam.

But I can't take too much issue as I am the co-host of a once-a-decade podcast about cheese with Jordan Morris called Shooting the Breeze.

So named by Jesse Thorne.

Yeah, that's true.

That was a fun podcast talking about cheese with Jordan Morris two years ago.

And one of the things, Jesse, I don't know if you recall, was that I remembered a time going in to buy fancy cheese at a fancy cheese store in Silver Lake, Los Angeles, and put it together that Jordan was the one who sold me the cheese long before we knew each other.

That's tremendous.

And I feel confident

that Jordan Morris, also a fellow former monger, would agree with me.

Yeah, you need different knives for different cheeses.

Listen, let me break it down real quick.

You got your bloomy rind cheeses.

That's your breeze, right?

The ones with the white mold.

You got your crumbly blue cheeses.

You got your washed rind cheeses.

That's like your Munster, your telegio.

They got that orangey color on the outside.

Also soft.

But then you got your hard cheeses, your cheddars.

And then you got your semi-hard ones.

And your itorkies.

You don't want to be mixing up your bloomy rind with your atorkie.

Come on.

Come on, Tara's husband.

You know this.

You can't just use a kitchen knife.

At the very least, you need a couple of different knives so that you're not mixing up the different flavors of the cheese, particularly those runny cheeses.

They're going to get all over that knife.

Do you need different kinds of knives?

I would argue.

If life is offering you an opportunity to buy different kinds of knives, you take it.

That's awesome.

But at the very least, yes, separate knives at the very least for your blue, your bloomy rind, your washed rind, and your hards.

That's four knives.

Three, you can get by with three.

You can really get by with two.

But get a fun cheese knife set.

Jordan Morris would agree with me.

And if he doesn't,

then he's out of the monging union.

I'll see it happen.

I'll see it happen.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ H O or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No cases too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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