Live From SF Sketchfest 2020

Hey, it's Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week's episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast was recorded in my hometown, San Francisco, California, at the beautiful and historic Castro Theater as part of San Francisco Sketch Fest.

It's a doozy.

Let's go to the stage.

San Francisco Sketch Fest, you've come to us desperate for justice.

We're here to deliver it at the Castro Theater in San Francisco.

Please welcome to the stage Noah and Caden.

Tonight's case, night-night court.

Noah files suit against his husband, Caden.

Noah is an early-to-bed, early to rise guy.

Caden is a night owl.

Caden often stays up until three or four in the morning playing video games, then sleeps in late.

Noah wants him to wake up earlier.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Trashy.

Brooklyn hipsters attempting and failing at being artsy once again.

Performance art, in and of itself, is supposed to evoke meaning and emotion.

This

show does neither and is genuinely a waste of time.

I was coerced into going after someone pumped me full of booze, and even with the bonus of being in an elated, tipsy mood, that mood turned flat after witnessing the feces show they call Judge John Hodgman.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Noah and Caden, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever?

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he never sleeps, because sleep is the cousin of death?

Yes.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Noah and Caden, you may be seated seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Let's see.

Caden, why don't you start?

I have no idea.

No idea.

Something on Twitter.

Something?

Oh.

More than 140 characters, so maybe a series of tweets.

Oh.

Well, let me just say this, Caden.

You're warm.

Okay.

I'm going to give you that.

I'll give you that hint, Noah.

I'll give you another hint, since Caden is already ahead of the game.

He's a gamer.

I'll give you, it's not from Twitter.

It's from Yelp.

Yelp, of course, being my favorite website for short fiction written by the most unreliable narratives.

As a person who lives in Los Angeles, Yelp is my favorite website for racist essays about whether parking is available.

It's like the library of Alexandria, so many stories.

Would you like a further hint, Noah and Caden?

I'll give Caden.

I'll give you another chance.

Yes, please.

Here's another review of the same piece of culture.

Have no idea what this progressive play was about I thought it was based on MC Beth tried my hardest still wondering

was it a review of Hamilton was it a review of Hamilton who are you Ken Jennings

answer in the form of an answer

But I'll put that second guess into the guess book.

A review of Hamilton.

Question mark?

all right Noah what's your guess you can guess the same thing or something else I'm gonna guess something else yeah

I think you've got it I definitely don't have it

but

the comedian Nathan Fielder did a great play that was not a play at one point and I'm gonna guess that a review of Nathan Fielder's play that is not a play

What is the name of the play that is not a play?

Not a clue.

He

scripted a bar.

He observed a bar, saw what people were doing, and then roped off a little seat and told everybody, go look at the bar.

Oh, hang on.

I hadn't looked here at your biography.

I forgot that Noah is Nathan Fielder's publicist.

All guesses are wrong.

I gave you a big hint.

I thought it was based on M.C.

Beth.

MC Beth?

Don't say it out loud.

Don't say it.

The person wrote M.

C.

Beth.

We cannot say the name of this play in a theater.

Oh, okay.

And the play that is based on MC Beth is a little something we call in New York City, Sleep No More,

an immersive theater experience that I will never, ever go to because

it is scary sounding.

You go into this fake hotel and everyone has to put on masks, even you, and I know those masks aren't going to fit over my glasses.

And I'm going to look like a dummy with glasses over my mask.

And then you wander around, and people do interpretive dance about this play around you.

And then sometimes they ask you to come into a little room.

And

just thinking about that, I was like, if I go in there, someone is going to do the worst thing possible, which is touch my neck.

And so the reason I have obviously picked this particular reference is the term sleep no more, because Noah, you would like Caden to actually sleep a lot more.

And Caden, on the flip side, you would like Noah to sleep a little bit later, is that right?

Yes.

All right.

So, Noah, you bring the case, correct?

Yes, Your Honor.

So state the nature of your dispute.

Well, Your Honor,

Caden likes to stay up very late.

You don't have to call me Your Honor, by the way.

You're wearing the nice new robes.

Your is fine.

Okay.

Your is fine.

What's the name on the inside of the robe again?

Mr.

Justice John Skoronsky.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, you know what?

Please call me that.

Good point.

Well, Judge,

Cain likes to stay up late, sometimes during the weekend, sometimes during the weekend, and it's an inconvenience for me and for other people.

And you are not Nathan Fielder's publicist.

What is your profession?

I'm a political consultant.

I raise money for the good guys.

For the good guys?

By which you mean the Libertarian Party.

Who are the good guys in the year 2020?

Democrats.

I think both sides are terrible.

Oh, of course.

Except for Democrats.

Well done.

Thank you.

And this is...

I have no opinion.

That's right.

As an NPR employee, Jesse Thorne is prohibited from having an opinion

on politics.

There is nothing going on in the world that is so extreme that it would warrant an NPR employee from feeling a thing.

I signed a pledge of perfect somnambulance.

Well, thank you for the work that you do.

Caden, what are you up to?

I'm a technical program manager for a tech company.

Okay, cool.

And so you obviously have some flexibility, Caden, in your workday.

Yes.

Because you're staying up late.

What I understood from my bailiff, Jessica Thorne, sometimes three or four in the morning playing games.

On a good night?

On a bad night, you accidentally fall asleep at 2.30?

Yeah, yeah.

Those are the rough days.

What's your game?

It's not just games.

That's when I can read.

It's my me time.

It's

when I can recharge.

Sure.

And nobody bothers me.

You tricked me into feeling sympathetic for you.

Because I feel that a lot.

As someone who I'm often awake in the middle of the night, and I'm thrilled about it.

But I did ask you, what are your games?

Because I am curious.

So I'm a big console gamer.

I play

PS4, Xbox.

Those are the names of console.

Sorry, famous.

Mass Effect.

Can you not remember?

He's playing Mass Effect through.

Jaguar.

Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Anthem,

sometimes Fortnite.

With all due respect, Anthem is a health insurance plan.

I'm not sure about Fortnite, but it might also be one.

If Dragon Age is one, then I'm definitely signing up for it.

And so, Noah,

what about you?

Are you a nine-to-fiver?

Not really.

Okay.

If I had my way, I would go to bed at about 8:30 and wake up about 4:30.

But

if I don't have my way,

but I stay up late,

usually about 10:30 or 11, and wake up about 5 or 6.

How old are you?

29.

29.

Once he's the 4:30 dinner special at

this.

Because you will have your way.

In 20 years, you're going to be.

Well, I don't want.

I understand that I'm weird.

I don't want Caden to be like me.

I just want him to come to bed at a slightly more reasonable time than before.

We'll talk about Caden in a second, but I'm on you.

What?

Have you always been such a

early to bed, early to rise type of person?

Yes.

And 8.30, though, that's quite early.

I mean,

you can't even watch some of the more adult TV shows.

Well, typically I go to bed about 10.30 or 11.

Right, but you'd like to go to bed at 11.

I would, definitely.

Would you like to be in bed at 8.30?

Yeah.

Or would you like to...

Wow, that was.

But the records show that it was an extremely sensuous response.

Yeah, that was like as close as a head nod can get to bom chicka bomb bomb.

Oh, yeah.

I want to be in bed and feel those flannel sheets gently drift down onto my shins.

Put my head back onto my buckwheat pillow and just go nine.

Do you want to be in bed at 8:30 or do you want to be asleep?

Be in bed.

Be in bed at 8:30, yeah.

What do you want to, like, read and whatnot?

Read a little bit.

Sometimes I fall asleep watching a TV show.

In bed?

I'm aware of how the court feels on that subject.

For someone who seems to take sleep hygiene seriously,

you are really messing up your head that way.

What are you watching at bed at 8:30?

The Little House on the Prairie?

The Simpsons right now.

The Simpsons.

All right, all right, all right.

And then you fall asleep, you want to fall asleep at about 10:30.

I'll usually, if I was in bed at 8.30, I'd be out by 9.

You'd be out by 9?

Yeah.

He'd be out by 8.35.

Yeah.

And you're married?

Yes.

How long have you been married, Caden?

Three years.

Three years.

Three years.

And how long have you been together?

11 years.

So you were together, you've been together for much longer than you were married, so you both knew what you were getting into.

Yes.

Has this been a dispute?

Like, did it take you by surprise that

Noah liked to be at bed at nine o'clock?

No.

Actually, at the beginning of our relationship, we were long distance for a while, and I was in the Philippines, and he was in Atlanta, and there was a 12-hour time difference.

Right.

So

I heard no complaints then.

It was great.

But then we moved in together, and that's when the dispute started.

Yeah.

Like the first day you moved in and you saw him getting into bed at 8:30, you're like, what the hell?

He has a bedtime alarm.

He has a bedtime alarm at 7:45.

That's not true.

That's not true.

It's at 8:30.

This case is shaping up very differently than I thought.

Yeah, you know, me too.

I mean, you wanted to be here.

So,

I mean, I was asking about your work schedule to determine if Caden's gaming, me time, late-night, all-night-long schedule is disruptive to your sleep in some way.

It can be.

I fall asleep better when he's in bed.

Yeah,

I do.

I fall asleep better when he's in bed.

And sometimes.

I don't think you have problems falling asleep.

That's true.

I sleep better.

I should say I sleep better.

I feel like you're guilding me.

I sleep better when he's in bed.

And sometimes he'll ask me to spend time with him at night, so I'll sleep on the couch while he's playing video games.

Yeah, that went from, oh, to, oh.

I do have a case.

I have to say.

Caden, that's a grim scene to picture.

Like

you playing Fortnite at 3 o'clock in the morning while Noah, illuminated by the blue light of your video game,

is sacked out on the divan

with a thin gray blanket over him.

Let the record show that Noah and Caden can barely collect themselves

due to the sheer punishing accuracy of the word person.

Please, please giggle on Mike

and don't fall over.

You obviously love to be together, right?

Yes.

So have you tried to find some common ground?

Have you tried to set different rules in the relationship?

We try.

Much of our relationship is about negotiation.

So we.

Oh,

how unique.

Usually the most lasting marriages are based on a line drawn in the sand.

I find it hard to stay consistent because one of the things I hate most is just lying in bed waiting to fall asleep.

And for some reason, it's just

difficult.

Yeah,

there was a quote that I was going to read

from an author about sleep until I found these Yelp reviews.

And I'm just, I have to remember it because I'm not going to find it right now on my phone, but it was along the lines of

why would I fall asleep?

You know, if I fall asleep, then it is just tomorrow.

If I stay awake for another hour, I have another hour of life.

So why would I ever sleep?

And I was like, I feel that.

But you know who wrote that?

Who?

Sylvia Plath.

Kids ask your mom, dad, or guardian to explain

the dark and tragic irony of that.

Do you feel,

you know, this question is for both of you, that this

disconnect in your schedules prevents you from having enough together time?

No,

absolutely.

But not only us,

so sometimes we like to hang out with friends, but all of our friends know on the weekends they have to, they can't schedule anything with us until after 3 p.m.

because Caden sleeps.

Caden's sleeping, yeah.

So, and like my family for Christmas this year had to rearrange the,

we were video conferencing them in Georgia, and they had to wait until Caden was awake so everybody could get the family together.

And he asked them to move it so that it was later so he could sleep in a little bit longer.

You know, it's it,

I would like to spend more time on the street.

How like do you sleep on a weekday?

In fairness to that point, though, it was 7 a.m.

I moved it from 6 a.m.

to 7 a.m.

So, like,

that is some germane information that you left out.

I mean, when we talk about telling the whole truth, nothing but the truth, you know.

Right.

No, you should become a political consultant.

Is your family a family of early risers?

Is this come from your family experience?

Most of them, yeah.

Yeah.

My sister is the exception, and she's listening.

Hi, Lydia.

Also, say hi to your friend Nathan Fielder.

Hi, Nathan.

Caden, would you say your family are more night owls?

Is this a family

difference?

Generally, yes.

I think that they are.

I'm the only one who has a job that's flexible enough to allow me to be as night owly as I am.

So on a weeknight, you'll,

Noah's alarm will go off at 8.30.

He'll go, please, please, please come to bed.

And you'll be like, uh-uh.

You can sleep out here on the couch if you want to.

And Noah will be like, no, I'd actually like to sleep in a bed like a human.

Thank you.

And then he'll go into bed and fall asleep.

And then what's your first go-to?

Like, immediately, like,

put on your sunglasses and dance around in your underwear to pop seeker songs and then pop some popcorn and then start a cake and then read and then play Anthem and then play Fortnite and then get online.

Like, what do you do?

Normally, I have already,

started a book, or I've already started something by the time I've gotten home.

Sometimes I throw some work in there.

If I have a PowerPoint that I'm dreading and I have to do, then that's probably what I'm doing it.

So it's a mix.

It's time that I don't have to adhere to a schedule.

I can just do whatever I want to do or whatever I need to do.

Right.

So,

what percentage of that time is video games?

Hmm, 70%, probably.

Noah, that was a very condescending question.

Let the record reflect that Noah nodded condescendingly.

Is this an issue of virtue for you?

Do you feel that it is unvirtuous of Caden or perhaps not adult, not 29 enough?

Like a real 29-year-old, a real 29-year-old adult would be getting into bedding 30.

No, no, no.

Are you concerned your family may not have enough worms?

The, oh,

no, I'm fine with him playing video games.

I just,

if he has the option, I'd like him to play video games until, say, 11 o'clock or midnight and then come to bed with me.

It's the 3 a.m., the 4 a.m.

Last night he was up until 3 a.m.

and got up at 7 a.m.

I don't think it's healthy for him.

When you wake up at 7, how do you feel?

Normally I'm tired, but by 8 o'clock I'm okay.

But that's not, in all fairness, that's not the typical night.

This was kind of an exception.

Yeah, you're like, I'm only going on a fairly popular podcast tomorrow.

I don't need to be fresh or anything.

So, you know, like there are a lot of nights where I am in bed before midnight, but usually I'm winding down.

I'm still, I'm not asleep until 12.30.

So it's not every night that it's 4 a.m.

because there are days that I have 8.30 meetings.

And I get a lot of sleep.

Today was the exception.

Normally I get at least eight hours.

So it's not.

Yeah, but you're sleeping late.

Like, how late are you sleeping to get that eight hours?

Usually nine, maybe ten.

And then I'm at work.

2 a.m.

to 9 a.m.

is seven hours of sleep.

I've done that math.

I remember that one.

So the 3 a.m.

to 4 a.m., that's usually during the weekends.

Right.

And that's probably why it affects Noah the most because he's already up at 4.30 on a Saturday and he wants me to be awake as well at 4.30 on a Saturday.

Right.

But more than likely, I have been awake until 3 or 4 in the morning on a Friday night, and so I won't wake up until like 12 or 1.

It's a lot of numbers for me to take in, Caden.

But do you know what?

I don't begrudge it because

another husband might have come in with a spreadsheet.

And I appreciate you're not doing that.

Thank you.

I almost brought my spreadsheet, but I thought better of that.

I asked you both if you had enough together time, and Noah, you suggested that your togetherness was a little challenged by Caden's late sleeping.

Caden,

do you worry that if you followed Noah's strict and bizarre schedule,

that you would not have enough me time?

I do worry about that.

I have a job where I interact with people all day, and and I'm actually a natural introvert.

So the fact that I'm on this stage is kind of a statement of my love to my husband.

And to us.

That's not true.

Sorry, Bailiff.

Just to let you know, he called you Judge John Hoffman just a couple of minutes ago.

Wow.

You probably listen to comments.

We're a Rogan guy, are we?

Like to hear a lot of viewpoints, do we?

So

I do worry about that.

I feel like we get enough time on the weekends, but I don't think it's just my sleeping in.

I think it's also that we have time with friends.

We have times with, you know, our weekends are always packed.

And so it can feel like maybe we don't have just two of us time.

Do you think that Noah has difficulty being alone?

I do.

I think that would probably be very difficult for him.

Noah, do you have difficulty being alone?

How do you feel?

How do you feel when you're up at 4.30 in the morning on a Saturday and you realize that not only your beloved Caden is not with you, but most of humanity is with you?

Well, on weekends I like to sleep in.

What does that mean?

5.15.

9 or 10.

I usually wake up at 4.30 because I usually wake up at 4.30 because the cat wakes me up.

Okay.

Now, see, another husband would have brought a picture of the cat.

There's one floating around somewhere.

Let us stipulate that your cat is adorable.

Its name is Primrose.

Primrose.

Forget it.

It's a great name.

One of the great names of cats.

So if I were to rule in your favor, Noah, how would you have me rule?

I would just ask for a midnight bedtime.

Midnight bedtime?

Midnight on the weekdays.

On all weekdays.

There's a lone applauder in the audience.

Midnight bedtime on weekdays.

Any other, any exceptions?

No, I think that's fine.

Caden, is that doable for you, or do you feel that that's

unreasonable?

So one of the things that I have a hard time with is restrictions on my freedom.

So

in theory...

It's like Gary Johnson says.

So in theory, that could sound good, but the...

Then why, if you don't like restrictions on your freedom, then why did you marry a Democratic fundraiser?

Because he was cute, smart, and had a great family.

Yeah.

So that feels, but that feels like a restriction.

You want to have

the adult agency to decide for yourself.

Yes, exactly.

Personal responsibility and personal choice is important to me.

I see.

What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

Maybe we could check in about it periodically and decide if it's still working for the both of us.

I don't know.

Are you a sound sleeper, Noah?

Yes, mostly.

You're good at it?

All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

There are a number of mattress companies that advertise on podcasts.

Not even one of them advertises on Judge John Hodgman.

So I'm going to go into my sleep chamber and lie upon my hated collection of Lisa's, Caspers, and sleep numbers.

And I will not fall asleep, but will ponder my decision.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Caden, how are you feeling about your chances in the case?

I think the judge is going to be fair, regardless of what he rules.

So bad?

I think the judge will be fair.

Noah, how are you feeling?

Terrible.

Yeah, I bet you didn't expect to turn on you like that right at the beginning.

To be fair, though, you have insane habits.

It's a valid point.

Have you guys thought about having children and never choosing when you go to sleep or wake up ever again?

It occurred to us, yeah.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and delivers his verdict.

There's no way to solve it.

There's no solution.

You're doomed.

You're doomed.

You didn't know what you were getting into.

You both made a perfectly fair error.

You met on opposite sides of Greenwich Mean Time.

You didn't know.

Never occurred to you, Caden, that Noah was this strange-o

who as an adult goes to bed at 8.30 p.m.

Like some kind of seven-year-old.

Seven-year-old trapped in a 29-year-old's body.

Nor could you know, Noah, that Caden was a 13-year-old trapped in a 29-year-old's body.

You know, this court has discussed bed and sleeping arrangements a lot because it's obviously such an important part of a loving relationship.

But it is a paradoxical part of a loving relationship because sleep is

a brief moment of togetherness before utter apartness, where you each go into not merely your own, like, not merely your own figurative worlds, but your semi-literal dream worlds where you're only alone, which is how you are born and how you're going to die.

The fact that married couples actually share a bed remains confusing to me.

Since what you are sharing is not yourself and your love for each other if you are asleep, right?

What you're sharing are your farts

while you are unconscious with each other.

And yet there is something, Noah, that moved me when you said that you sleep better when Caden is near you.

I think that even on an unconscious level, the human body knows that they are with someone, that they care about it.

And I've never,

as a

father of human children,

I do not sleep well at night because unconsciously,

there is an evolutionary impulse that I have to be on alert for wolves.

And yet, once my family is awake, all I want to do is sleep because

then I realize they're looking out for wolves,

so I can now finally rest.

And Caden, something you said also, though, moved me, which is that

while you are playing video games, and the case was presented by Noah as merely playing video games, that all you do is just play Fortnite until 5 a.m.

every morning and just eat cool ranch Doritos.

In fact,

you have a full life of your own in the middle of the night, where you are able to pursue some of the solitary things that Every person, any couple, has to nurture in themselves in order to then, when the other partner is finally awake, in order to share of yourself, you need to have time where you tend to yourself, right?

So,

they're very meaningful but completely diametrically opposed competing impulses.

So, Caden, I'm going to introduce you to a concept that I learned from a great podcast called Stuff You Should Know, our friends Josh and Chuck, who are doing a great show here at San Francisco Sketch Fest.

Before there was,

never mind, electric illumination, before candles were widely available, people went to bed as soon as it got dark.

And then when candles were available, they started to extend their evening hours, obviously, because they could.

They could stay up late and play Fortnite in the 17th century.

Different kind of fortnight.

It was a two-week game of fighting.

But they were still trained, biologically, they were still trained to wake up in the middle of the night.

And

there's a whole lost history of what's called second sleep.

And

in

15th and 16th century literature and drama, there often references, I will meet you at second sleep, and no one knew what they were talking about because this part of human history had been lost to time, especially once electric illumination became available to everybody, because people just stayed up late at that point.

They could.

But before that, that, the biological rhythm was to fall asleep more or less at dusk and then wake up again.

And that period of waking between first and second sleep was this almost post-hypnotic state where you were awake but very alone, untroubled by the world because it had stopped,

and contemplative.

And people would wake up, they would work on a poem, they would make a little model, they might go do a little project, they might visit someone else in the middle of the night.

Maybe a lover or a neighbor or both.

And then they would go back to sleep.

And when I heard this, I felt suddenly very seen and affirmed because

that is completely my sleep pattern.

I fall asleep and then I wake up.

And it had been happening to me since I was, like you, Caden, a 13-year-old.

I would fall asleep,

then wake up wide awake at 1, 2, or 3 in the morning and worry that there was something wrong, and worrying that I was worrying about the wrong thing, and going into this cycle of worry because I was awake.

And then I would eventually fall back asleep.

And when I realized that this was a biologically very natural thing to have happen,

this period of second sleep for me became this wildly comforting and productive period.

I wouldn't necessarily get out of bed and like make a cake or anything,

but I would often get up and I would read a book or think about the day

and really enjoy a profound sense of aloneness in that quiet.

And then I found it very restorative and nourishing.

And I feel you when you say, this is my time.

And I also feel you, Noah, when you say, I want my husband with me, even if I have to go sleep on a rug in the living room

next to Primrose.

Eventually,

Noah, you will get what you want.

As you guys grow older together, Caden, you will discover you can't do what you do anymore.

Your body will begin to betray you, and you will want to go to bed at 8:30, and your eyes, like mine, will wake up at 5 a.m.

And wonder, why can't I get on an airplane now or something?

But until then,

My advice to you is that you go to sleep with your husband.

And once he's asleep get out of bed

this is the sound of a gavel

judge Sean Hodgman rules that is all Noah and Caden

you know we've been doing my brother my brother me for 15 years and maybe

Maybe you stopped listening for a while maybe you never listened and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lollum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Jesse, we've...

We found justice in the case of Noah and Caden.

Looks like our job here is done now.

All justice has been served in San Francisco.

This is a lawful land.

Goodbye.

Wait.

Hold on, Judge Hodgson.

I'm going to put this to the audience.

San Francisco, do you think there's more justice within your bounds?

I think, John, that we can find more justice.

How about this?

This is my pitch to you.

We'll put...

Just 15 minutes on the clock and see if we can blast through a powerful string of justice such as never been seen in the city by the bay.

Sounds gross, but fair.

I call it Swift Justice.

Swift Jesse says on this piece of paper:

Who seeks justice before me, Jesse?

Please welcome to the stage Heidi and Neil.

Heidi

and Neil, please step forward.

Who comes to this court to seek justice from me?

Your judge, John Odgman.

That would be me.

And you're Heidi.

I am Heidi.

Hello.

Hello.

What is the nature of your dispute?

When we have visitors come to the Bay Area,

when we get in the car to pick them up at the airport, there's much tension between my husband and I because I love

the cell phone lot.

I've heard that sentence many times.

And Neil feels that it's important to either park and go in and greet our visitors or

circle around.

Let the record show that some of the people in the audience hissed

at Neil's circle around scheme.

What is your relationship to Neil?

We are married.

And how long have you been married?

30?

30 years.

Let the record show Heidi has no idea.

It's true.

And looked to Neil either to confirm her memory or to confirm what lie she was supposed to tell.

Almost certainly the latter.

Heidi, if you need help, blink twice.

Yes, Heidi.

Okay.

We'll meet you in the cell phone lot.

So Neil,

what is your scheme for picking up people at the airport?

I was raised in the Chicago area, and my family taught me that what was best would be to make it as comfortable as possible for someone coming in from out of town.

They've traveled five or eight hours, they've had three delays, and so the idea is...

They should plan their travel better.

So the idea is that you are there to greet them and help them with their luggage and bring them to the car, or, if appropriate, you just be there magically the moment that they arrive at the curb.

Okay.

That's the goal, anyway.

And Heidi, were you raised differently?

She was raised in a cell phone lot.

Yeah, that's right.

That's why you like that.

Cell phone lot feels like home to you.

She really does.

Neil's idea of graciousness from the Midwest, I believe, is different than mine, where for me, I like

our guests to believe that it was effortless to get them.

I don't want them to worry about me paying for parking,

and I don't want them to stress about me circling around while they're getting off the plane and getting their luggage.

Yeah, well, I mean, whatever way I rule,

I want to relieve you of a burden that you have by letting you know most people aren't thinking about you.

This is true in general.

Most people are thinking about themselves.

There may be some.

There may be some, I don't doubt.

Perhaps there's some people going, I hope Heidi's okay.

Not I need to find my luggage or what happened, you know,

I have to go to the bathroom very badly.

Maybe their first thought is, is Heidi okay?

Is it cold in the cell phone ladder?

I don't know.

Is she circling around?

So, Neil, let me understand.

First,

I mean, obviously, one of the things is that

you were raised in a city, a small town, with a small-town airport

with no traffic whatsoever, where it's just easy to just pull up at any time.

That was once true.

In modern-day airports, it does take a little bit of difference.

No, I mean,

this is an issue that I take with your scheme.

Because

if you were to park in the parking structure and then greet them and then walk them to the parking structure, that's one thing.

But this circling around until they arrive is not merely imprecise.

Because you could get caught on this, you know, on the far side of the airport when they're walking out, which is not much different than waiting in the cell phone lot, lot, except you're adding to the traffic going around the airport.

There are risks to the scheme.

May I at least congratulate you for being the first husband in a heterosexual relationship to say those words.

To acknowledge that there are risks.

There are risks.

There may be flaws in the scheme.

Now, you brought a spreadsheet, I'm sure.

Let's take a look.

I'm in love with the idea that Neil wargamed this thing out.

You're picking people up from the cell phone lot.

We're talking about San Francisco International Airport?

Yeah, any airport.

Yeah, but what are you?

Driving to other states to pick people up?

Do you live here in the Bay Area?

Yes.

The airport you're talking about is San Francisco or Oakland?

San Francisco or Oakland.

Okay, right.

Not San Jose.

Got a beef with Normanetta?

What do you do in the cell phone lot while you're waiting?

How early do you get there?

Let the record show for the listener at home, Heidi's face lit up with great delight and an inward gasp of, oh, let me tell you about the joy she takes in being sitting in the cell phone lot.

I listen to a ball game, I listen to podcasts, I play games on my cell phone, I draw.

It gives me time.

I think about the people flying in and flying out, and once I even saw the dog-sniffing dog playing fetch.

Wow.

You are living an entire Richard Scary book

in that cell phone lot.

Yeah, I'd like to just amend an earlier ruling, if I may,

pursuant to the case of Noah versus Caden, an amendment to that ruling.

Caden, you have to fall asleep with Noah.

When Noah falls asleep, you get up and drive to the cell phone.

Because that sounds

like a delight.

Obviously, you both have different styles,

one of which

causes zero harm to the traffic patterns at the airport,

one of which causes

harm,

one of which adds traffic rather than

the opposite.

But

neither style harms the other in the sense that if Neil goes to pick someone to the airport,

you can stay at home and listen to the ball game and watch service dogs play fetch or whatever.

So why should I adjudicate between the two?

Why can't you each have your own style?

We have our own styles when we're independently picking people up, although I have to admit that

I still grill him about whether he's just circling or

you're thinking about it.

Yes.

But when we're together and picking people up, we don't bring the subject up, but

as we approach the airport, the tension lifts.

There's a certain air of tension

rises

a lot.

Well, I can imagine so.

I wonder whether he's.

If you're going together,

and you go to the cell phone lot, the Neil's being robbed of his cultural heritage.

Thank you for understanding.

And if you circle around, then you're being robbed of your baseball time.

And also the anxiety of why are we burning gas or electricity when we could just be sitting having a good time.

You could even...

I mean, how long have you been married?

Oh, 30 years.

30 years.

But the magic is still there.

You guys could be getting frisky in that cell phone lot.

No, look.

Yeah, John.

Let the record show the withering contempt that Heidi had for that idea as I stepped into the organ pit and never took the leave.

John, I don't know what Richard Scary books you're reading,

but.

You're saying Loliworm never found a lady worm in that apple car?

Maybe not a lady worm, just maybe another worm.

John was reading Get Busy Town.

Sorry.

I thought of it and had to say it.

Neil.

Do you doubt the efficiency of the cell phone lot method?

Because I got picked up by a volunteer named Lenore here at SF Sketchfest.

And

I stepped out of that door and I texted her.

I mean,

your ancient family practice perhaps predates cell phones.

It does.

At that time, cell phone lots were just for growing corn.

That's right.

I don't know why they even called them cell phone lots.

They haven't even been invented yet.

It's a modern adaptation.

But now we do have cell phones and texts.

Yes.

And I got my baggage and I stepped out of door number 16 and I texted Lenore saying, I'm ready to go.

And within three minutes, she was there.

It was a pretty efficient practice.

It's a long wait.

But if you had been on the other...

Oh, all right, you know what?

I had a great time.

I listened to a ball game.

You asked for it, Neil.

Now it's going to be put to the test.

First of all, by the way, Neil, what you're doing is wrong.

Second of all,

but you have the right to do it.

Second of all,

when you go individually to the airport, you do whatever you want.

And that's, yeah.

Third of all, to settle this once and for all.

The next time someone comes to the airport, it's going to be a race.

Heidi, you're going going to go to the cell phone lot.

Neil, you're going to circle around.

Okay.

The person.

I don't know whether you have two cars or whether you can borrow one or rent a second car.

They have to be comparable, right?

They can't, you know, you can't, one can't be faster than the other.

Okay.

The second that person lands or is ready to go, text both of you simultaneously.

The first person who gets there and picks that person up, that's the way you do it when you do it together.

Neil is supremely confident.

Heidi and Neil, please welcome Matt and Wiki.

Matt and Wiki, hello.

Hello.

Let's see here.

Who seeks justice before me?

I do, Your Honor.

And you would be Matt?

I am, yes.

And

what do you do all day long?

As Richard Scary might say, what do you do all day?

I'm a professor and a filmmaker.

A professor and a filmmaker?

Yes.

A professor of what?

Filmmaking?

Film and video production, screenwriting.

Where do you profess?

Actually, on the other coast, Monmouth University.

Monmouth University, okay.

Yeah, Jersey.

That's in New Jersey.

And yet you live here?

Part-time, yes.

We're bi-coastal.

Okay.

Yeah.

Summers and winter break, I'm here.

The rest of the time, I'm over there.

Okay.

And Wiki, you are a product designer at Expedia.

You love to cook, learn new types of design, and play music.

And of course,

Wiki, I know this because there's a huge portion of the internet that's organized just around facts about you.

Wikipedia.

You see what I mean?

Oh, of course, yes.

Check it out, everybody.

Not sponsored.

Check out my website, Wikipedia.

Do you commute across the country like you're...

Are you married?

We are, yes, yes.

Yes, yes, we are.

Do you commute across the country with your husband, or do you live here full-time and that's why he comes back or what?

Yeah, so Expedia, that's where I work.

My job is mostly here, but they're very flexible.

Thank you so much.

Not sponsored by Expedia, but thank you.

So I got to.

And yet you still managed to say Expedia three times.

Yeah, Wiki.

You know, that's what I do when I'm nervous.

I just mention where I work all the time.

It's weird.

But yeah, so we've been married for a while, but he has to live there because he teaches, and it's harder to get a job as a professor, I guess.

And

there's...

so I have I'm based here but during the summers because he has the summers off and the winters off so he really just works like six months out of the year and that's but he does the good work it's okay so when he's not working he spends this is not your main tier case it's just run of the mill yeah just run of the mill contempt for your husband

yes yeah this isn't about the case this is just a list of reasons you're mad you're married to your husband

No, I love him, but when he is working, I spend half of my time there, so I do like two weeks here, two weeks there, so on.

So, but that none of this has anything to do with your dispute.

It doesn't matter.

Which of you seeks justice?

I do.

And what is the nature of your dispute, Matt?

You can't tell from the looks of us right now, but we dress eerily similar.

On purpose?

No, not intentional, not coordinated.

Okay, we just happen.

We will enter the bedroom dressed, I mean, I'm telling you, near identically.

Right.

So, enter the bedroom from, what, your respective ante-rooms?

Once the ladies in

waiting and gentlemen's valets have finished dressing you.

She enters the bedroom from the bathroom.

He enters the bedroom from the magical portal that leads to Monmouth, New Jersey.

A fantasy land where people only work six months out of the year

and goats and beavers beavers talk.

I love the picture of you guys entering the bedroom at the same time, dressed exactly alike, and going, What?

As though it's part of the opening credits montage of a 1991 sitcom.

I was imagining that same entrance and then, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, wait.

Just trying to paint a picture.

No,

you're both fresh makers.

I get it.

You're psychically connected?

Sartorially psychically connected?

Just, yeah.

That was hard for a person who had a whiskey a little while ago to say.

I think we both entered the relationship with a similar eye for fashion, if you can call it that.

So

you both look pretty put together right now.

She looks, I mean, great.

Yeah.

You're a hipster cash, and

your sneakers are new.

And Wiki, you got a cool leather jacket on, and you got some cool boots and stuff.

You didn't dress alike.

It looks like

what you're saying is not true.

Exactly.

We actually spent a long time today discussing if we should dress alike, which was the original.

Yeah, we were wearing the same thing.

That would have been funny for a stage.

It would have been illustrative of your case and amusing to see.

see

for a podcast.

You know,

don't make me bang this devil down.

Judge Hodgman, you know I hate to do this.

You know this is the last thing in the world I want to do.

I'm here in my hometown.

My parents are here.

My brother's here.

All the Graaldes great citizens are here.

They're probably all Giants fans, too.

I don't want to have to do this, but I feel like I have to do this.

Shut your pie hole!

Since you decided not to present any evidence in person,

let's look at the evidence that you did send in.

Exhibit A.

Now,

Mac, I'm not sure that you knew that this was possible,

but we have visual material here.

You heard the audience react to it.

And it's incredible that I, a professional writer, can actually describe to the listening audience.

You remember the devastating word painting that I painted earlier?

I can do that too with your evidence.

So we have here two photos of...

Adorable Matt and Wiki together.

On the left, there is a photo of them on a couch.

Both are wearing matching Asbury Lane's bowling alley t-shirts.

Wiki, you've got a really jaunty kerchief on, and that you're wearing the same sneakers you're wearing tonight, unless you have 35 identical pairs, which I would not put past you.

And whether this was intentional or not, you're sitting framed beneath a painting of a sad couple sitting exactly the same way.

Listeners at home, if that was not an adequate word painting for you, you may go to the Judge John Hodgman page at maximumfun.org or our Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Then there is a picture of the two of you in what looks like pajama tops, both of which are featuring the Grinch,

and they are identical pajama tops.

So in both of these cases, you are dressed eerily alike.

Is it eerie?

Was it planned or unplanned?

It was

that was it's become such a picture.

So which are you referring to?

Yeah, I'm sorry, sorry, sorry.

I want you to remember this is a podcast now.

The pajama tops, it's become such a joke amongst our families that my mom bought us matching pajamas just so not only are we twins during the day, but at night.

While you sleep.

Yeah, while we sleep.

And your Aspury Lane shirts, was that a coincidence or a plan?

No, it was, like, I had a bunch of those t-shirts, so I gave one to Wiki, but that's one of her favorite.

Forgive me for wearing the shirt that you gave me.

I'm so sorry.

Sue me.

Oh, Lord.

How did this start happening?

So neither of these are actual evidence of what you claim happens, which is that you guys accidentally dress alike.

So here are my questions for you, Matt.

How did this start happening?

And

why does it bother you?

Okay, so it started happening just because, I mean, I think beyond these photos, we.

These photos prove nothing, Matt.

I know.

Is there more?

Next one?

Okay.

Here we see you both in sort of

lumberjack style sweatshirts, or excuse me, over shirts.

Wiki, you're sporting that incredible red kerchief again.

Matt, you're wearing a Descendants t-shirt.

You're cool.

And then

there are four people down here, you and two friends down here in the third picture.

Who are these guys?

So that's Wiki's sister and her boyfriend.

But I do want to note for that picture of four, I put

my jacket around my neck because when I wore it around my waist, too, we looked like we were like that couple that like coordinates together.

We're both wearing jean shorts, black, like graphic tees.

So though these photos do not illustrate the problem that you bring to the court of you guys dressing alike coincidentally.

I will take it on faith that that happens.

You are concerned that you look like you're coordinating your outfits when you are not.

Almost every night, yes.

And why does that bother you?

Why would that worry you?

I just don't want to be that couple that like walks out the door, you know, like the couple you see at like a theme park or like on vacation together where they have like team, whatever the last name is of the couple, and they just like walk around like that couple.

Yeah, yeah I don't want to be that couple no I'm but I'm getting a really good idea of what I'm my sentence is gonna be

Wiki

do you do you verify that this is true that you guys occasionally dress alike

Well, yes, so just in general, I feel like I have a uniform and whatever, I admit it.

I like to wear what I know I look good in, which is

what's your style?

Dark jeans, like a band t-shirt, sneakers, like

plaid or like a jean jacket or this or whatever.

I'm a cool rock and roll babe.

Yeah, I'm a cool rock and roll babe.

And so I think

I think what happens is that when, so we're bicosta, so when Matt comes here, he brings a little suitcase with the same things that he knows that I wear all the time.

Like he has very little options.

And so when I come into the room from this really mysterious other room,

he's like, what?

You're wearing what I'm wearing.

And I'm like, well, one, even before I knew you, dude, like, I was wearing this.

So you probably should have looked at my okay Cupid pictures a little more carefully

if you didn't want to come across this problem.

Like, I swear to God, I've just been dressing this way all my life.

Are you saying that Matt has been biting at your style?

I kind of think so, but okay, fair enough.

So if you dress up matchy, matchy,

do you mind being matchy, matchy, or is that just Matt's thing?

I really don't mind that much because, like,

part of, like, my whole thing is, like, I like to wear hoops, and I like to wear earrings.

And I don't know if you've seen it.

Matt has hoop earrings in right now.

Not right now, because I'm trying to change it up

for a Matt.

Just kidding.

Anyway, so I really don't mind.

And then I'm not even thinking about that I'm thinking about like what are we gonna eat or who's gonna call the lift or like whatever the next step is and he's like oh my god like we can't look alike and I'm like who cares like and and if

and also

Like I don't really I don't need to be like a cute couple, but like if we I'm not paying attention to if someone happens to mention like oh, you look alike.

I'm like, oh my god, that's so cute, right?

I don't know.

Are you afraid of being cute, Matt?

no i love being cute yeah well you're both not like being cute when

dresser like who changes

i think wiki has a has a in in terms of scale and scope of her wardrobe uh

she usually does i'm i'm not telling you my question or she's like you're like i don't want to be match you you change wiki

it's literally there's another flannel i can put on there isn't much i can change into like i like i think today is a good example of she can rock Like she has like, in terms, she's a more adventurous dresser than I am.

Are you fighting Wiki's style?

Am I what?

Biting Wiki's style.

I'm 48 years old.

I hope not.

No.

Wait, can I say something?

You may.

Okay, so.

I love Matt, I really do, but sometimes.

Okay, okay, so here's the thing: it's like I, the reason I wear the same thing all the time is because I can imagine myself in it and I feel comfortable and I don't have to, like, that's not another worry I need.

But sometimes I'm like, I'll try something new.

And so, like, I have like a few things that I'm like, okay, maybe I've like created this image of myself, and I'm like, I think maybe I can do it.

And then he's like, what are you wearing?

He's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I'll allow it.

Okay, no, no, no.

Okay, no, okay, guys, again, not a, don't, it's not a, like, it's not a crazy, like, oh, he's just in a lot, whatever.

It's just like, and I'm just like, okay, like, it's something that my, like, my mom would say, like, really?

You're going to go out?

I'm just like, okay, no, I'll go back and put on my flannel and my jeans and my sneakers.

Thank you.

Yeah, Matt.

I've seen a lot of pictures of the two of you supposedly dressed the same.

In all of them, Wiki is wearing a cool neckerchief, and I haven't seen you wear a cool neckerchief once.

So, who are you to make fun of her when you don't even have a single cool neckerchief?

I think his beard might be too long, you can't see it.

I have a big long beard, and I literally make and sell neckerchiefs.

All right, here's what:

A,

Matt, you should be proud of being Team Wiki Matt.

They're all, you guys are cute.

B,

it's cute to be matchy-matchy.

You shouldn't care what other people think, but since you're obviously someone who does, if you don't want to be matchy-matchy, it's on you.

Bring more clothes.

Get stuff that she doesn't wear.

Get get wild things that Wiki does not have in her, you know, like don't get a neckerchief.

Get your bandana and tie it around your leg, like Scott Bayo.

Showing love Shachi,

liven up your outfits and see, start wearing neckerchiefs, Matt.

Go to the put put this on shop.

Right?

And buy, and I order you to buy a neckerchief for a neckerchief, the most distinctive neckerchief that is available via Jesse Thorne's men's and persons fashion

website.

Put thison

shop.com.

One that Wiki would never, ever wear, and wear that neckerchief.

Team Wiki Matt forever with pride.

That is all.

Wiki and Matt,

please welcome to the stage Jason Robertson.

All right, let's see.

Who did you say?

I said Jason Robertson.

And who else?

On my paper here, it just says Jason Robertson.

Sorry.

Jason.

Is there someone with you, someone you have a dispute with?

No, no, no.

Jason?

You know the rules of this court, do you not?

There shall be no disputes against society A.

B, me, C, yourself.

Are you bringing a case against yourself, Jason?

Kind of.

You're going to make me drop this gavel.

All out.

Tell me the nature of your dispute, if that's what it is.

Well,

in first grade, I won a state writing competition.

Oh, I see.

It's just a brag.

By plagiary...

Late grade if you just walked off stage.

Yeah, yeah, and that's it.

Okay, so in first...

In first grade, you won a state writing competition.

Yeah, yeah, and by plagiarizing a very popular children's book, which

I excuse me, yeah, yeah, a very popular children's book from the mid-80s, Dr.

DeSoto, which I learned that you like quite a bit.

Yeah, I love that book by William Stike.

Yeah, so when I heard that, I wrote you.

I know.

Oh, look, I know why I wrote it.

So, how do you mean you plagiarized it?

So,

I guess the assignment, you had to write a short story, I think, in class.

You didn't get to take it home or,

yeah.

And I just copied the plot wholesale.

Just the whole thing, nothing original.

I changed the two types of animals in it.

Well, that makes it fair use.

You brought some evidence.

Let's take a look at the evidence.

Oh, there you are in first grade.

Yeah.

Who's that?

That's my dad.

That's your dad.

So for the listener at home, this is Jason in first grade on his dad's shoulders attempting to strangle his own dad.

And then what is the other thing there?

It's what I'm holding in my hand here.

And it's the

my mom saved it.

It's the compendium of all the winning stories from that year.

All the winners got to go to like a multi-day writing workshop at the University of Iowa.

So it's the Irish Republican Army Prose Writing Conference.

It's the IRA.

What does the IRA stand for there?

International Reading Association.

International Reading Association.

You've got some extremely beautiful dot matrix clip art of quills.

and scrolls on either side

that speaks to the authenticity as this being a document from 1991 to 1992.

Next slide, please.

And here is your winning entry:

The Squirrel and the Wolf.

Now, for those of you who do not know, Dr.

De Soto is the story about a dentist who is a mouse

who,

look, why are you laughing?

Anyone can be a dentist.

Just like anyone can be a Dracula.

Anyway,

and well, how would you describe the story of Dr.

De Soto?

I forget what the animal is in the original.

It's a fox.

A fox has a toothache, and so he goes to a widely renowned dentist who's very good at what he does, this mouse.

And the mouse and his wife are nervous about accepting a fox as a patient, but they do.

And then the fox gets hungry in the middle of the procedure.

And Dr.

DeSoto is so small, he's got to climb into the fox's mouth to fill the cavity or do whatever work he's doing.

Yeah, that's the suspenseful bit.

The mouse is in the mouth, and you're like, oh my gosh, is he going to be eaten?

Yeah, yeah.

And the fox is under the influence of the gas they've given him for the procedure and starts to mumble to himself.

What kind of thing does he mumble?

He starts mumbling about how hungry he is and how delicious mice are and how easy it would be to have a quick snack while the dentist is in his mouth.

And spoiler alert, that mouse gets at up.

And that's the end of the story, right?

That's it.

How does Dr.

DeSoto avoid his fate?

So, Dr.

DeSoto says,

Well, you know what?

We're not done with your treatment yet.

You have to come back tomorrow.

And he hatches a plot with his wife overnight

and administers a glue in the fox's mouth the next day and then tells him

it's going to keep his mouth shut for 24 hours because it has to set into his dentine.

And

then what happens?

And then the fox realizes that he can't open his mouth and he's frustrated in his goals of eating the mouse and he leaves.

I don't remember the exact ending.

It seems like you've blocked it out for some reason.

And what happens in your story?

The same thing?

Pretty much.

Yeah, I just simplified it.

I didn't hit all the plot points, but I hit all the major ones.

He sends them home.

He comes back, and he glues his mouth shut, and everyone lives happily ever after.

You simplified it.

You're trying to say that William Stegg used too many words?

Yeah.

In a way, I made it my own because...

I mean, it's like jokes.

Like, anyone can take them and put their own riff on them.

Yeah, yeah.

Even if it's like a national book award winner.

So

this

evidence of your misdeed will be available on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page and our show page.

The change that you made was instead of a mouse, you made it a squirrel, which is ridiculous because squirrels can never be dentists.

At least not on my watch.

No.

It would be ironic because squirrels have disgusting teeth.

And the the fox becomes a wolf, and you submitted this, and what happened?

I won first place for first grade in my county.

It was like 100 kids or something.

And no one noticed that you had stolen this plot?

No, which is so weird.

Even in the moment when I won, I was like, nobody called me out.

And then I had to go to a county awards ceremony in like a big theater like this.

And

I read the story out loud to all these educators and parents of other children who lost and won and both and the whole time I just no one stood up at any point and said shame to you

I expected it the whole time and how did you feel when it didn't happen

you know it it was probably the beginning of the end a little bit of

probably made me a little more jaded earlier than I would have been otherwise

and what grade are you in now third Yeah.

I wish I was still in third grade.

How old are you?

How old am I?

I'm 35.

It was almost 30 years ago.

Yeah.

And has it haunted you?

Yeah, yeah.

I think about it.

I think about it now and then, and I have no idea what I could do to atone.

Have you tried to atone for this?

No, I don't know what to do.

I was too ashamed in the moment.

I didn't do anything the rest of...

Ashamed?

Or afraid

what would happen?

Afraid.

It was fear.

Because you were cognizant of your wrongdoing.

Yeah.

I mean, you changed those animals for a reason.

Yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean?

That's evidence

of knowledge of guilt.

Yeah, I was smart.

You changed some details.

Do you think you did it because you were on the spot?

Like, I sympathize with you.

If you were told to write this story in class, you couldn't even go home and work on it.

Like,

did you feel like you were put on the spot and you had to come up with something and this is the best you could do?

No, I was always a good student, even in first grade.

Did you make a conscious decision to cheat?

I can't remember, to be quite honest.

You knew that you did cheat.

But I knew that I cheated.

Yeah.

All right.

And what do you seek from this court?

The rights to the book Sylvester and the Magic Pebble.

So granted.

It's just weighed on me all the time.

I'm like, what could I do?

You know, I mean, some other kid could have won.

It was really cool.

I got to go to the University of Iowa, and there were all these workshops about writing and kids, and I thought it'd be so cool to go to a college.

You got drunk at Ray Carver.

got to hang with George Lish

yeah yeah so Gordon Lish sorry

fraud shame

but you haven't answered my question what do you want from me I don't know we've never had a case of self-recrimination on this I know I know when I when I wrote you I just asked for your

injunction in punishment

and and then I like immediately regretted it when I realized it might actually end up here yeah

Jason you may not know this about yourself but you have a history of doing things impulsively

not realizing that there may be ramifications yeah

well

I could order you thrown into this organ pit here at the Castra Theater

where you could live in darkness and shame alone forever.

But I instead

think that you need to process what you expected to have happen that never did happen.

So please stand up on the stage and face everyone here.

Come further.

Come into the light.

I want you to look at everyone here, think about what it was like reading your obviously fraudulent story.

At some point, you could have turned to your mom and dad and said, I can't take this award.

I can't accept it.

I can't go there and read this.

I made a mistake, and they would have understood, but you didn't.

And you expected to be called out, and you weren't.

And now I'd like everyone in the room to stand up.

Do not do anything yet.

Do not say anything.

Point with either your right or left hand at Jason.

Jesse, do you have a phone with a timer on it?

I've got to get a picture of this.

Yeah.

I've got it here.

I'm setting a timer for 20 seconds.

I want everyone in the room, this is for Jason's benefit,

to yell shame over and over at the top of your lungs, starting three, two, one, now.

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

I'm just pausing it here at 10 seconds.

You're doing doing an okay job,

but

you're yelling all in unison

as though you are automatons in my cult.

And as much as I would like that to be true,

I need Jason to feel the full force of your wrath.

So I need you to, like, some of, like, don't do it all at once

and really feel like betrayed.

All right?

Ten more seconds and go.

All right, all right, all right.

Enough, enough, enough, enough, enough.

That was too good.

That was.

Jason, I have to apologize.

All right.

Hang on, hang on, hang on.

Don't worry, don't worry.

I know it's coming.

You may sit if you want.

Jason,

what do you do for a living?

First grade teacher.

At the moment, I work for a small construction company in the East Bay.

Okay.

So here is,

that was hard

for me as well as you.

It hurt you more than it hurt me.

Did you feel anything in that moment?

The second second half was pretty good, but.

Oh, I didn't realize it was some part of your weird kink.

John,

we're in the Bay Area.

It's all part of a weird kink.

I hope that the second half at least

was a little bit, I guess, cathartic is maybe the word I'm looking for.

Punishing, I think.

Now for atonement.

You have gotten the punishment.

Now you atone.

And by atoning, I would like you to seek out one or more elementary schools in your community

and offer to tell your story to a first grade and explain to them what happened and how you felt and why it is wrong.

Because truthfully...

Truthfully, what you did was not precisely plagiarism, right?

Because you did not use the actual words.

You stole a plot.

And yet, my wife is a high school teacher, and plagiarism is something that kids do not, is a real problem among high school kids.

It is not necessarily seen as something that is bad,

and

it is a problem that is getting progressively worse.

And I think that if you were to tell your story and tell people how you felt about it and why it was wrong, that that would put some good in the world that would make up for the relatively petty theft that you engaged in.

And it wasn't merely that you, in the moment, made an error of judgment.

It's that you accepted

a reward

and

praise for something

that you didn't deserve, right?

And therefore, someone else didn't get that prize.

And they did the right thing and you did the wrong thing.

So you need to get that message out there into the world and talking to kids.

Just one school.

Do one school, I think you'll feel better.

You might want to do more.

But I'm only going to order you to do one.

And will you agree to do that?

I can do that.

All right, good.

Now, I want everyone.

Sure.

That was spontaneous applause.

That was not the automatons of my cult.

That was real human beings appreciating you.

But now I would like the automatons to yell for 20 seconds, forgive.

Ready?

Go.

That sounded weird.

That sounded,

you're still in mob mode.

Let's just say we forgive you all together.

One, two, three.

We forgive you.

Jason, thank you for sharing.

Thank you.

Jason Robertson.

Thank you to all of our litigants for sharing cases and to the staff at the SF Sketchfest and the Castro Theater.

You know, I used to work for this Sketchfest.

Good people.

Great comedy festival.

Thanks to Mary Fastbender Gottschalk for naming the episode Night Night Court.

This episode, recorded by Matthew Barnard, edited by Jennifer Marmer, produced by Hannah Smith.

Backstage visit by my mom.

Follow us on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman, where you can see a little video that I recorded from the stage of our litigant being shamed by the thousand or so people in the Castro Theater.

You can also follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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