Right of Shirts Refusal

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, right of shirts refusal.

Lana brings the case against her husband, Daniel.

On their next family vacation, Lana wants the family of four to wear matching t-shirts.

Daniel and the kids are opposed.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Since it all started in 2013, there have been a ton of clubs, but most of them don't make it past a few months.

However, those of us that are successful,

we're a fiercely loyal and protective group of Judge John Hodgman fans.

We hang out in the parks with our own clubs and other ones.

We take over rides.

We dance in the back lot, make a lot of magic, and a little teeny bit of mischief, and just enjoy hanging out with other people who are as crazy about Judge John Hodgman as we are.

With Judge John Hodgman clubs, you find yourself immersed in a world where Judge John Hodgman is your home and the clubs are your family and friends.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Lana, Daniel, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

We do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that since the last time

he recorded a case with actual litigants, his bailiff forgot how to put a joke in this part of the show.

Yes, I do.

Yes.

Daniel, I want to hear this.

Yes, absolutely.

Joke or not.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Well, I won't tell you to be seated, Daniel on Lana, because I can see that you are, because this is the very first teleconferenced episode of Judge John Hodgman.

I am speaking to you, as always, always, from my reinforced chambers here in Brooklyn.

Jesse Thorne, you are at home.

Jennifer Marmer, super producer, is at her home.

And Daniel and Lana are at their home, I believe, in Queens, New York.

Is that correct?

Correct.

Yes.

Terrific.

Well, it's nice to see you.

It's distracting, I'll tell you this much.

Normally, I'm used to recording this podcast while staring dead into space like a shark, like a great white shark circling a verdict.

But now we're here and we're all going to go easy on each other, Jesse.

That's the whole point.

We're all doing the best we can.

So for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours' favors, can either you, Daniel, or Lana name the piece of culture that I referenced?

And if neither of you can, I'm canceling the podcast.

I take it back.

We're all tired.

Lana, you go first.

Wow.

I don't think it's right, but I'm going to guess Goonies.

Goonies.

Goonies.

Yes.

Yeah, it's about a club.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And your instincts are correct that I have

substituted Judge John Hodgman for another more recognizable piece of culture that would have given it away.

There are, I hate to admit that there are no packs of Judge John Hodgman fans.

taking over parks and causing mischief.

Daniel, what's your guess?

That is, is, in fact, a quote from a journal entry of the first round of Club D23 at Disney World membership.

Club D23.

Look, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but I don't know what you're talking about.

What are you talking about?

That is a secret exclusive club in Disney World that was founded by Walt himself in Disneyland, and they have a special entrance right by Pirates of the Caribbean.

Oh, you mean Club 33?

Club 33, my bad.

How dare you, Daniel?

How dare you?

Club 23 was actually the pre-version.

The precursor?

Sure.

Sure.

I saw where you were going with that.

A D23 is what you need to play the new Warhammer.

Yes.

Tabletop gaming, John.

Tabletop Gaming Joke.

You're back, Jesse Thorne.

You're back, my bailiff.

That was my little tribute to our friend Stuart Wellington from the floppy.

There we go.

Yeah, a little tabletop gaming joke.

Club 33.

You can't tell me about Club 33, Daniel.

Oh, I've always wanted to go.

Always wanted to go.

It was reading about Club 33,

the unmarked private dining club in New Orleans Square in Disneyland.

I read about it in the book by William Poundstone, Big Secrets, I'm Going to Say in 1987 or 88, that set me down the road of my fascination with secret clubs, rooms, and societies, and then led me to write my first book of obscure made-up trivia, the areas of my expertise.

A direct line.

So that's a good guess.

John, you know, my Jordan Jesse Go co-host, Jordan Morris, has been in Club 33.

When we were in college, he dated a young lady named Emily, really cool lady, and her dad was an executive at Kodak, then now defunct,

then a big sponsor of Disneyland.

And so she could go to Club 33 whenever she wanted.

Yeah.

And you know what?

I envy Jordan because I cannot go to Club 33.

A, because the parks are closed right now, appropriately so.

B, because some years ago,

Daniel and Lana, you may or may not know,

but Disneyland closed Club 33

and expanded it.

And they changed the entrance and they made it larger so they could admit more more members.

And now that the original club is no longer the same footprint, I will never set foot in it.

No matter how many times you invite me, Disney,

I will not go unless I am actually invited.

Then I'll probably go.

Yeah, just try him, Disney.

Just try him.

We'll see what happens.

Yeah, that's right.

Offer me MODOC in

Iron Man 19 or whatever.

See what happens.

Offer me a role.

See what?

I'll probably say yes.

Okay.

Daniel and Lana, both good guesses.

Daniel, that was an extremely good guess, right on the money for what I was thinking of.

But you're wrong, and the show is now canceled.

Thanks to you, Daniel and Lana.

Last ever Judge John Hodgman show in the books.

Shut it down.

No, we'll go on.

I was quoting from the About page.

of a website called socialclubsofdisney.com for

while there is one official secret club of Disneyland, Club 33,

there are, certainly at Disneyland and probably at Disney World as well, multiple, many, many, many, many other

unofficial semi-secret clubs, actually not so secret at all.

Because starting in 2013, starting with a group called the Neverlanders SC, Neverlanders Social Club,

a bunch of Southern Californian people,

young folk in their 20s and 30s, started wearing denim vests

and leather vests like biker gangs with outlandish patches.

They created their own essentially motorcycle clubs, but just for no motorcycles, just wandering through Disneyland together with greaser hair.

This is the subject of the new Sons of Anarchy spin-off, right?

It is.

It is.

Holy moly.

I mean, this is going to be, honestly, this is going to be the next Tiger King.

Tigger King?

Tigger King.

Oh, God, no.

Lana, I think you just lost the case.

That was my favorite.

I think you just lost the case.

Because I only learned about these clubs from our friend Jessica, quote, Jesse, unquote, Char,

frequent Max FunCon attendee and

a friend of mine and a Disneyland devotee.

She goes to Disneyland all the time.

She sometimes dresses up,

but mostly is just fascinated with the parks.

And she told me about these social clubs.

And she told me about how, in fact, I mean, there are lots of them.

I'm just going to read a few of them to you.

There are the Mr.

Toad's Wild Riders.

There are the Neverland Ghosts, the Neverland Mermaids, the Once Upon a Timers, Oogie Boogies, Dice Rollers, SC, Park Hoppers, SC, Plaid Vest Mafia.

That's a deep cut for Disneyland people, for sure.

And then this is probably the dopest one of all, the poor unfortunate souls.

Wow.

And there are lots and lots of them.

They're unofficial, and they're normally very friendly with each other.

But if you want to read an interesting article in Los Angeles Times from 2018,

you'll read about how two of them got into a feud, one of them alleging

essentially threatening the others with a protection racket for a fundraiser.

It's really intricate.

But the white rabbits, let's just leave it at this.

The white rabbits and the Main Street Fire Station 5-5 social clubs have beef.

So

don't stay, keep them apart from each other.

And this all came up because your dispute is over dressing alike, particularly in visiting amusement parks.

conventions and other things.

Who brings this case before me for justice, please?

That would be me.

Lana.

What is the issue here?

Well, the issue is that

we go to at least once, twice, maybe more times a year.

We really like family vacations.

This is a classic once, twice, three times, a maybe.

See?

I can do wordplay too, Daniel.

Watch it.

Watch it.

I don't want to have to quit, but I will.

jesse thorne i cannot see via video right now but i can i am having a good time imagining his face when i made that joke

lana what's going what's going on once twice three times and maybe you go to a park you're married to each other and you know you see those families that have the matching shirts and they have the cute uh maybe cheesy little sayings with their names on the back and they're all matching you know i've always wanted that some people might look at that and think it's ridiculous.

I think it's absolutely amazing.

And every time we go, whether it's to Disney, which usually we go to Disney a lot because we're big Disney fans, but whether Dollywood or Universal, I've tried, I've put it out there.

I've even said, you know, you guys could come up with the cool shirts if you want.

And they absolutely refuse.

I am shut down.

So wait, when you say you guys, you were talking about Daniel, your husband, and you have two children.

Is that correct?

And yes.

My two kids, Lillian and Dan.

And you would like to force them to all dress the same as a family team when you go to, say, Dollywood or Disneyland?

Well, when you say force, it doesn't sound so good, but yes.

Well, encourage.

Yes, strongly encourage.

Encourage forcefully.

Guilt in, that's fine too.

I think, John, to clarify, they go to Dollywood or Disney or Universal.

Shortening the name of the park is the wearing matching t-shirts of saying the name of a theme park.

Sorry.

You know you're deep into park life when you can just say universal.

When you say universal, do you mean universal studios, amusement tour, or whatever it is in California or in Florida?

Florida, since we're originally from Florida and we live on the East Coast, we've only been to Disneyland once when we lived in Arizona.

Right.

Okay, Gotcha.

I'm going to Marine, by the way.

That's Marine World Africa, USA, Envelopment, California.

Okay, you've moved all over the place.

What are you running from, anyway?

This is yours.

Apparently, we're running from success.

We moved around a lot because of my job, so it's taken us across the country quite a few times.

Yes.

What is your job, if I may ask?

I'm a former actor.

Now I am a business consultant for the auto industry in the U.S.

That sounds very mysterious.

What do you specifically do?

So I specifically help train dealers to conduct themselves in a ethical, compliant manner.

I bet your acting degree comes in handy.

I would say that the listening part for sure comes in well.

Okay, that's fine.

And Lana, what do you do?

During normal times?

Now is an unusual time of in our history, but during in the before times when the idea of going to an amusement park was something more than a thought experiment,

what would you do?

Actually,

I used to teach at a university and then,

well, for other reasons, I ended up

being a stay-at-home mom.

And now that my kids are grown,

I have actually a YouTube channel and a cooking channel that does pretty well.

So

I do that now.

And I hope to go back into teaching.

I think that's worth a plug.

What is the channel?

It's Lana Under Pressure.

Uh-huh.

Lana Under Pressure.

That's a great title for a thing.

This is a submarine cooking channel?

Kind of.

I converted my family's Cuban and Jewish recipes to the Instant Pot Pressure Cooker, and now I do also the Instapot air fryer and all that.

Do you get like a lot of sponsorship from Instapot?

You know, I don't.

I actually receive free things from other companies, but Instapot, they gave me an apron, but.

Come on, Instapot.

Get your act together.

I have not watched the YouTube, but I'm going to give it the Judge John Hodgman cautious seal of approval because you seem adorable.

Thank you.

So let's talk through this, Lana, so I have a picture of exactly what your

your desires in life are.

Yes.

If you were to go, obviously we're in fantasyland right now because no one's going to any parks.

But let's say Instapot came through finally and said you're going to three parks of your choice.

Top park you would go to first and outfit would be.

Do you mean it would be Walt Disney World?

Or do you mean, are you talking about the parks within, like Epcot or just in general, Walt Disney World?

Would you have different outfits for Epcot?

Yeah, because that's more global.

Let's just say Magic Kingdom and Walt Disney World, your classic, straight-down-the-middle Disney theme park, iconic.

What would you have your family dress up like?

Oh, I would like to do something Hawaiian-themed because we really like that, that side, the jungle cruise, and all that.

And, you know, I'm being nice because my son likes kind of Hawaiian prints.

So, you know, I think about their wants too.

So, I think maybe like matching kind

matching kind of like Hawaiian shirts, maybe with, you know, Perez Power on the back or something.

That would be your name, Perez Power?

That's kind of like our unofficial, my unofficial motto for our family.

I try to sneak it in.

I'm trying to get them to use it too, but it's not working.

But yes, Perez is our last name.

Yeah.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

Let me give you a hint.

Don't put that on the back.

Put Lanaunderpressure.com.

Now we're talking.

Would they be matching Hawaiian print shirts or complementary Hawaiian print shirts?

Well, I would prefer matching so that people know that we're a family, you know, like we're all together.

Right.

And there's no way to do that by like showing love or holding hands or something or being together.

Let's move on from the gently problematic cultural appropriation area of Adventureland.

Everyone's heart's in the right place here.

So let's just move over to park number two.

What would be

the number two park you would go to, and what would be the outfit you would like to curate for them?

I would probably put Universal Studios next.

Universal Studios in Florida again, right?

Yes.

Now, I got to tell you something.

I've never been to Universal Studios in Florida.

I've been to Disneyland a few times.

I've been to Universal Studios in California a few times.

Universal Studios in California is a lawless land.

It's the escalators.

It makes everyone mad.

They serve alcohol there.

Things are popping off at Universal Studios.

And my kids and I found a way

following the rules.

We had a certain pass that allowed us to do this.

We found a secret path back to the front of the line of the Jurassic Park line.

And

we just zipped around in a circle and did it four times in a row.

That's not something that a a human should, a brain should take in like that.

That place is wild.

Like wild.

That's where people should be wearing biker gang gear because it's, they should just turn it all into Mad Max land.

All right, anyway.

Universal Studios, what would you everyone be dressed like what?

I don't know.

Are we going to Wizarding World of Harry Potter?

Oh, that's right.

Yes, there you go.

I totally forgot.

But yes, it would definitely be Harry Potter themed.

Thank you.

Nothing conjures the magic

of the village of Hogsmeade than

people wandering around with tall boys of Modelo beer, which you can get from a cart.

That's what I'm talking about.

Universal Studios.

Anyway, I love that place.

It's fun.

You're basically looking for matching t-shirts here, right?

Not matching.

No, no, we don't have to all.

No, I don't roll your eyes, Dan.

No, I'm not actually.

Let the record show, for the first time in Judge john hodgman history i i witnessed visually

a dude rolling his eyes i mean i'm not saying we have to cosplay it you know or anything like that matching shirts is fine in fact at disney you wouldn't you wouldn't be allowed you wouldn't you'd have to do like disney bounding where you like sort of kind of but you know you know what i'm talking about tell us what bounding is Oh, that's where you dress up with a nod to the character to get through the entrance.

Right.

And everybody knows that you're dressed up, but you're not really dressed.

It's like dressing up life.

Yeah, because Disney doesn't let you dress up as characters

for obvious reasons.

I found out that the hard way when I wore a loincloth and claimed to be Tarzan in the Tarzan treehouse that time tried to upcharge everybody 20 bucks cash.

They'll throw you out.

Take advantage of that.

So what you're talking about is bounding, right?

Which is where, and I learned about this from Jesse Char too, is where like, if you want to seem like Snow White, you're going to wear like red lipstick and then a blue top.

And then, well, I don't know, what's a Snow White look like?

What's her skirt look like, Lana?

You know this.

Come on.

Isn't Snow White blue?

Her colors are blue, red, white, and yellow.

Right.

So you could wear like a little red headband with some lipstick, a little yellow somewhere, a little blue skirt, something like that.

Right.

Yeah.

How does that sound to you?

That sounds good to me.

I think that sounds great.

You should all go that way.

You Should all wear those colors.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom to hear more of the case.

Daniel and Lana, you did provide some evidence.

In fact, evidence of the two of you dressing, wearing matching t-shirts in the past.

Yes.

Lana, you submitted this evidence.

Here's you and Dan

at age 16.

Yes.

Wowie.

You guys have known each other forevers.

And it looks like,

if I'm not mistaken, this is the two of you.

You're both wearing head-to-toe denim and you're attending the 2001 American Music Awards.

That was the first time that I've ever worn a matching shirt with anyone.

And it is a Phantom of the Opera shirt at a high school musical theater competition in Tampa, Florida.

That was our state competitions.

And if you look closely into my eyes, Judge Hodgman,

you can see what's happening there.

Of course, this photo and all the photos will be posted on the Judge John Hodgman page at maximumfund.org, as well as our Instagram page.

Look at these two.

What's happening in your eyes is you're like, I happen to be a jock.

For the record, I'm about 6'3, and Lana is, well, she's not as tall.

She comes up to your armpit.

You are wearing matching Phantom of the Opera t-shirts.

And Dan is, the look in your eyes to me is a look of both

resignation

that this is how you're going to spend the rest of your life.

And behind that, a certain happiness.

Yes, this is a young man who met his soulmate.

Right.

And didn't want to to mess it up.

You were willing to do anything.

Including a Phantom of the Opera t-shirt.

Yeah, but

I appreciate that this was something of a big ask, but when you're 16 and

someone that you have a crush on asks you to do such a thing, you do it.

Agreed.

The real question I have here is, did Lana ask you to tuck in the t-shirt into your belted jeans?

Or was that your call?

I'm going to say yes.

Remember, you're under fake oath.

No, that was a personal choice.

That was a personal choice.

Oh, look, it was a long time ago.

It was a long time ago.

Daniel, where would you have drawn the line?

I see the Phantom of the Opera t-shirt here.

I see a Gershwin t-shirt here.

Oh, yes.

Crazy for you.

That was the next year, I think.

Would you, if she had asked you to wear a Starlight Express t-shirt, Andrew Lloyd Weber's legendary sentient train musical,

would you have worn that?

So I was a young kid from a very poor neighborhood in Hylia, Florida, who didn't know much about musicals.

So Jesse, I probably would have worn whatever she asked me to.

I would have gone for the rink.

You would have gone for what?

The rink.

You know the musical, the rink?

I do not.

Oh, fantastic.

What is that one?

It's about

an Italian family that owns a roller skating rink.

Wait a minute, you're telling me.

So for people who who don't know Jesse's reference, Andrew Lloyd Weber, creator of Cats,

followed up that musical with a music that was like, you know what, I'm going to do now that I've made cats sing, you know, I'm going to make sing next trains.

Could be all these sentient trains

rolling around, singing about being a train.

And when I say rolling around, I mean rolling around because the entire cast was on roller skates.

And now you're telling me there's another musical based on roller skating?

John, it's the ninth longest running production in West End history and the most successful musical in Germany, where it's been performed in a purpose-built theater since 1988.

The workshop of Starlight Express featured Tracy Ullman.

Of course.

If you were Tracy Ullman in 1988 or whatever, and you were a fresh young talent, and Andrew Lloyd Weber came a call-in saying, I made Jesus Christ superstar.

I made cats.

I'm Andrew Lloyd Weber.

You might tell me rights to adapt Thomas the Tank Engine.

It's based on Thomas the Tank Engine.

I'm not making it up, John.

It really is.

No, it's not.

No.

It is.

It really is.

Wow.

Well, we all learned something today about Starlight Express.

I love it even more.

Choo-choo.

So, okay, look, again, here you are.

You're not in Starlight Express t-shirts.

Now it's the year following.

17-year-old, young people in love.

Now you're wearing the new matching shirts from the new Gershwin musical comedy, Crazy for You.

Fast forward,

more matching shirts.

Now you're adults.

You're wearing matching disco shirts.

And by disco, I don't mean the music.

I mean Star Trek Discovery, correct?

That's right.

Now, this has to be fairly recently that you've done this, Dan.

In fact, Your Honor, I'd like to point out that there is a 28-year gap

between our Matchy Matchy shirts and the one that we wore to watch a taping of After Trek.

So we all, we made those shirts.

I see.

That's only because I'm usually the photographer and I didn't take a lot of pictures in between that time.

So I'm sure that had I done that, there would have been times where I talked somebody into it.

I'm sure.

Then the sins of the father were visited upon the younger generation.

Your daughter and son bent to your will again, Lana.

Here in a photo of you guys at a New Jersey Performing Arts Center, Harry Potter, in concert, you're all wearing your respective Hogwarts houses garb.

Yes.

And there you are again,

Dan,

in your Gryffindor shirt being a good sport.

And then finally,

well, semi-finally,

incredible.

family Halloween costuming as Betelgeuse and Alec Alec Baldwin and Gina Davis and Winona Ryder from Beetlejuice, your whole family.

Which one are you in this one, Dan?

So I'm playing the Alec Baldwin character.

Yeah, but your face is all turned inside out, like in Beetlejuice.

This is some incredible costuming.

Is this your home in Queens?

That's our home in Queens.

And every Halloween we try to go all out and we play a movie on our front window so the kids can watch and we make it a whole event.

When you say we try to go all out, do you mean Lana forces you all to go all out?

Yes.

Come on.

Okay.

Yes, it did start.

Like, I did push for the all-out, but they really like, my daughter loves Halloween.

Everybody loves Halloween.

That's like their favorite.

So it wasn't that hard to push them into it.

And yes, so I pushed us into slowly morphing into like a family-themed Halloween where we all kind of, you know, before it was like we dressed up as clowns and my kids could kind of dress up as what they wanted, sort of.

This is the first year where i was able to pick a theme where they all got on board and i made those costumes so it's looks i mean everyone needs to check this out because it looks you guys look great

and then finally a family portrait of your whole family in the style of the simpsons including a mischievous dog

who is not uh sam is a little helper too but what is the name of your dog uh daisy may oh daisy may does she always wear a bow tie or just in this instance?

Actually, her collar, that is a

Minnie Mouse bow tie collar.

Yes.

That she wears in real life as well, not just in this instance.

That she wears in real life, yes.

Did the two of you commission this family portrait to celebrate Disney purchasing fox?

Oh,

that's Faye Life Jesse Thorne's joke, Disney.

Please don't fire me from culture.

I'd like like to work again, please.

It's just so my classic humor for Hollywood reporter readers.

It's an adorable illustration of your family in the classic Homer Marge,

Lisa Bart,

couch TV position.

In the style of The Simpsons.

Those are your two kids.

Do you mind saying their names, their first names?

Oh, sure.

Lillian, she's my daughter, and Daniel is my son.

And their ages?

Oh, my daughter just turned 19 and my son just turned 16.

They're young and at least in one case, legal adults who can make up their own minds, for example, about how they dress.

All right.

I have a letter from your kids, which I'll read in a moment.

But Lana, what does it mean to you

to be able to dress all alike?

Especially now that your kids are a little bit older.

What would it mean to you to be able to go?

to any of these parks and get you all to wear matching outfits?

I really,

really

love my family.

And we're really tight.

We've moved around probably to seven different places.

So it's kind of like the four of us are all we have.

And,

you know, Dan and I came from divorced parents.

So, you know, we never had that whole thing.

And just,

I don't know, there's something about it where we're all dressing alike.

It just kind of makes me feel even closer to them.

And as they get older, like, like I said, I was a stay-at-home mom.

So I was with them.

We made the decision, and then I was with them 24-7.

And, you know, I'm a Cuban Jewish mom.

So I was really on top of them, you know, but it's like my whole world.

And now that they're older, and I have one go that's off to college and one who'll be going off to college soon, I don't know.

I just feel like this pull to kind of, the more they pull away, the more

I'm getting off a clempt right now, but you know, the more I want to, I don't know, I just want to keep the Perez family kind of together.

And I feel like if we're wearing matching shirts, not only do we know, you know, we're together, but it's just, you know, it's our uniform.

It's, we're the Perez's.

You feel your nest emptying.

You feel your family moving into a new phase.

And you want for at least one

hot, humid, crowded afternoon to be in a constructed world where you're all together visibly.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

So, Dan, you heard how Lana put it, which I thought was very moving.

You heard how I put it, which was frankly a pretty good punch-up from a professional writer.

But that doesn't mean that the emotion wasn't there.

And my question for you is: how do you feel when you hear this?

Does it make you feel differently about this request?

So, I

love my wife.

She is my soulmate.

She's wonderful.

She is the most optimistic person I've I've ever known.

Her optimism is not just a superficial Pollyanna.

She truly finds joy in the simple things in life.

I tend to overcomplicate things.

So I definitely do appreciate how much she loves the family and has that sense of unity, but there is nothing I find more obnoxious

than a family wearing matching t-shirts at Disney World or anywhere else.

I mean, we get it.

We know you're together.

You came together.

It is obvious.

When you go to Disney World or any of these parks and you see families wearing team family shirts or jumpsuits, or that would be pretty cool, jumpsuits.

Hang on.

Like, cool.

Venture brothers speed suits.

That'd be cool.

But anyway, when you see them, what is your instinctive feeling when you see these families?

I feel like the family's trying too hard.

I feel like it is an outward expression of

quote-unquote what a family should be and not necessarily

anything meaningful to those people wearing the shirts.

I think even when they go as a convention or a family group, they're wearing the shirts because they want to be identified.

Does it feel show-offy to you?

It feels a little show-offy to me.

Also, I guess instinctually as a kid when I went to Disney,

we didn't have money to buy anything at Disney or do anything.

So

the idea of making a shirt and creating it and taking it there just seems very extra.

Oh, interesting.

So like there's a class issue here.

There's a little bit of like,

you didn't have money to go out and commission matching speed suits like I'm suggesting.

Like you were just lucky to be there and that was enough.

You know, we grew up in the same place, so he can't.

What I'm struck by is a man trying to convince us of a class argument against being extra who has a master's degree in theater.

Jesse,

that's an MFA, actually, Jesse.

Would you feel very self-conscious wearing one of these shirts?

Would you not be able to enjoy yourself?

I think I could enjoy myself.

I think I could do it.

However,

I think there are other things that we can do that show unity as a family and creativeness.

That isn't as sacrine, that isn't as, I feel, superficial.

There's an authenticity that's lost when you force the group to do something together, right?

We can find a way to get everything you want to do, but do it in a way that everyone can express their own personalities and creativeness.

And I would argue that that would make them even more involved and more want to participate in these family outings, especially as our daughter's going off to college.

What are you arguing for?

Complicated secret handshake?

I wouldn't mind saying we're going to go dressed

in a general theme.

Let's just say, hey, we're all going to, let's wear, we're going to Harry Potter World, so let's wear Harry Potter shirts.

I don't mind doing that.

It's just the Perez power on the t-shirt.

Seems a little much to me.

I think it's LanaunderPressure.com now is what we decided on.

But okay.

Well,

good news for you, Dan.

Your children agree with you.

We have here an exhibit, a letter, an affidavit from your children, Dan Jr.

and Lily,

and I'll read it.

The reason as to why we prefer not to wear matching shirts, especially when going to a theme park, i.e., Disney Universal.

Boy, they're your kids, all right.

Is because Disney Universal Marine.

Marine.

Ep.

That's short for Epcot.

I can't think of another one.

ACTH.

That's short for the late lamented Action Park,

New Jersey.

Also known as Traction Park.

A lot of people got it.

Traction Park, yes.

A lot of people got bad, bad bruises and burns.

The reason we prefer not to wear matching shirts is because it is flat out obnoxious.

We understand that wearing matching shirts to a convention or other event is appropriate.

However, if we were to listen to our mom's plan and wear something that is themed specifically for our family, such as a last name or a family slogan,

LanaunderPressure.com, it comes off as very annoying.

The reason for this is whenever we see a family with matching shirts, it's as if they're screaming, we're a better, more perfect family than you.

That's my acting.

How did I do?

Good?

I don't have an MFA or whatever.

I've got a phone call here from Disney.

They say you're hired.

Oh, boy.

We don't care how good your relationship is with your family members.

We just want to wait on five-hour lines to go on rides.

And of course, at the end of the day, it's a little embarrassing since we're such a small family.

We can see if you're a huge group and need to spot people in a crowded park by having matching shirts, but there are four of us.

It seems extreme, irritating, and dumb.

Thanks, Daniel and Lily.

Wow.

Strong.

It's a strong argument.

Dumb.

Your children say it's dumb.

Teenagers.

Boy, oh boy, Lana.

I think that the concern is that it feels performative.

He's an actor, and my daughter goes to school for theater, and my son

does background work in movies.

That's work.

This is play.

This is play.

You just want to disappear into the crowd.

All right.

And as for my verdict, I'm going to have to go into my chambers in a moment before I do.

Lana, this is all a thought experiment right now.

If I were to rule in your favor, however, what precisely would you have me rule?

That at least, and I'm only asking for one day during our vacation, so not the whole vacation, just one day,

that we wear matching family-themed shirts that are matching.

And then, once a year, we take one good quality, like, you know, like professional quality, cheesy family photo.

The reason I got the Simpsons one done is because they refuse to do those, like, you know, like the professional photos on the beach where everybody's wearing the white shirts and the jeans.

Kill me, kill me, you know, that everybody has in their

living room.

I don't have those.

So this was kind of, you know, it's like, well, nobody can say no because it was all me just sending the artist pictures and they couldn't

say no.

That sounds so sad.

Well, but

you didn't want this Simpsons family photo?

I love the Simpsons.

In fact, it was a Father's Day gift to me.

Right.

So I loved it.

She did it as a surprise.

What I don't want to do is the matching all-white on the beach awkward family photo.

All right.

First of all,

Lana, you can't introduce a new request at the end of the case.

I'm hearing one case at a time here.

And I'm going to say, what is it, white t-shirt and jeans on a beach?

That is correct.

No, that's not going to happen.

Sorry.

Okay, so then just matching theme shirts, but we'll take a picture at the park.

So that way we'll have a picture of us all matching.

How about that?

All right, I feel that.

Daniel,

what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

I've already ruled against t-shirt and jeans on the beach.

Family photo.

Thank you.

And I recognize that and appreciate it.

If you rule in my favor, I would ask that

we find a different way that is not requiring everyone to wear the exact matching shirt.

I would also request that we do not come up with a family superhero slogan,

especially Perez power.

But

I really will follow your advice, Judge Hodgman, your ruling.

I just feel like there are other ways that we can accomplish the same thing.

But what is the way?

Well,

that's a good question.

You come to me with no alternative.

Your Honor, I really don't have an alternate solution.

I'm just asking for no matchy match and no.

No matchy match, no matchy match.

He wants to save Perez power so he can trademark it for his business consultant.

With my Perez power system,

your ethics

are going to go sky high.

You will be moving Kia Sorrentos faster than ever, but this time by telling the truth.

Is that a car is Kia Sorrento?

It is.

That was accurate.

Okay.

I know, right?

Accurate.

Okay, phew.

That's the first thing I care about in this podcast.

All right.

I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

Who am I kidding?

I'm not going anywhere.

You can see where I am.

There's no magic anymore.

We're all just peering into each other's lives as we sit here in our pajamas.

But I'm going to think for a minute.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Lana, how are you feeling about your chances here?

I'm not feeling good, actually.

I thought when I started, when I wrote it out to send it, I was like, of course they're going to rule for my, like, why wouldn't they want to rule for a cute family to wear just matching shirts together as a family walking through the parkhouse sweet?

And now, I don't know.

Now I'm thinking,

not feeling good, Baylif.

Daniel, how are you feeling?

I'm not feeling good either.

I don't think I thought this through.

I don't think there's a, this is a no-win scenario for Danny Boy over here.

We do try and make sure Judge Sean Hodgman is in everybody loses situation.

I think we're going to be both mutually dissatisfied.

Do you think your family could maybe start a new Disneyland gang?

Do you think that might be in the cards?

Oh my God.

That would be awesome.

I would be so into that.

While he was talking about the jean jackets, I was already putting them together in my head.

I got my my bedazzler out.

I'm ready.

She's not even kidding.

You know what I want to do?

I want to join one of these.

You know, they have rockabilly gangs in contemporary Tokyo?

Yes.

I want to join one of these modern rockabilly gangs.

I've met a few of these Japanese rockabilly guys at like menswear things that have giant pompadours and stuff.

It's the greatest.

I mean, it's completely ridiculous, but it is fantastic.

Okay, well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet have we?

Yes we have.

Same episode actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh we're ruined!

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Woo!

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And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So this has been a very tough one to consider because not because I don't feel a basic emotional response to these arguments.

I mean, I look at this family drawn in the style of The Simpsons, and these kids are big.

They're growing up.

They're going away.

And this is going to be hard.

Like, you know, we have kids

who are sort of a little bit behind your kids, and we're getting ready to lose them.

And it's a very heavy thing to think about.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, you don't know what it's like because your kids are all under the age of 10, and I'm so much happier to be me.

Because it's hard, hard in a different way to have kids under your body.

All I do is long for my kids to leave.

Look, there are a lot of emotions in parenting.

And baseline, like,

you should do what your mom wants you to do: wear a shirt, make her happy.

It's a baseline emotional response.

The hard part was to figure out there are so many

different ways

that with my ruling, I could make you all miserable for my own amusement.

I could order you guys to go to Disney World all wearing Phantom of the Opera t-shirts.

Oh, no.

As an homage.

Matching Looney Tunes gear?

You could all be wearing Starlight Express shirts.

But I realized that

making your kids

that Phantom of the Opera shirt, while it would be wonderfully humiliating to them, it would not honor the truth of your relationship, which is that it started

when you were young and when, Dan, you were a little bit more pliable, a little bit more agreeable.

It started long before you knew that you were going to have kids, and it represents a period of time going into the future

when, you know, those kids will be off into their own lives.

And all you guys will have are the two of you and your Phantom shirts.

So your kids don't deserve to wear a Phantom of the Opera t-shirt.

That's for you two alone.

So then I'm like, well, then what am I going to do?

Because the other aspect of it is this, Lana.

If I get everyone to wear a matching Perez Power t-shirt t-shirt and give you exactly what you want,

I get it.

I get the idea of having your family together, fulfilling your dream in a dream world that isn't going to last.

I don't think you're going to be able to handle it, Lana.

I think you're going to break down the minute you see it.

I think you're starting to cry now.

I can see it.

You were crying just talking about it.

This is going to be waterworks the entire time.

There's going to be a whole splash mountain coming out of your face.

That's how bad it's going to be.

And also,

that's going to be hard.

I mean, maybe cathartic, but I'm worried of finding in your favor under the request that you've made.

Because I think it's going to be a really heavy day in the Magic Kingdom.

And also, these kids, they're adults now.

They can't be dressed by their mom.

They got to be able to pick their own lives now.

You had a chance.

You had your chance to make them wear a thing.

Ages 0 through probably 12.

That was your chance.

Probably the boy until 16, right?

Because he probably didn't even know where his shirts were.

So he needed you.

And Daniel is a part, you know, you've done the damage.

You've made him wear Phantom of the Opera before.

He's done his work.

He wants to experience himself,

experience him in his own way.

So here's what I'm going to say:

I will not allow matching t-shirts with Perez power.

However, Dan, you are the author of your own fate.

Welcome to your new gang, the Tigger Kings Social Club

from Amazing.

Yes.

How can I not?

It's just too compelling an idea.

Jesse Char is also an extremely talented designer.

I'm going to consult with her to design a Tigger Kings Social Club patch for you.

I know a guy who makes patches.

It's going to be a recognizable patch

that you're all going to wear on a piece of clothing when you go.

Oh, my goodness, that's awesome.

That way,

you,

Dan, Dan Jr., and Lily can all style themselves however they want, but they got to wear the Tigger Kings SC patch.

And meanwhile, in the traditions of moms embarrassing their children and husbands through time immemorial, you get out your bedazzler and your denim vest and you do it up.

That's called Lanaunderpressure.com.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Lana, I heard you scream in exaltation.

I was trying to stay quiet, but that was amazing.

That's the best.

Dan, how do you feel?

I feel like I'm going to be wearing a denim jacket bedazzled.

You don't have to wear a denim jacket bedazzled.

Oh, I don't.

No,

anyone can do whatever they want.

God bless you, sir.

You could wear a jumpsuit.

That's my recommendation.

I think he should dress a jumpsy.

I think it's a fair decision.

I think it's a fair decision.

Everybody's going to be able to express themselves.

This is going to be a great time.

Are you happy?

Yes.

Yes.

Lana, Daniel, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Another Judge John Hodgman case.

Kapow in the books.

Before we dispense Swift Justice, our thanks to Megan Hodgkiss for naming this week's episode Right of Shirts Refusal.

If you want to name a future episode just like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out calls for submissions there.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho.

And check out the MaxFun subreddit at maximumfund.redddit.com to chat about about this episode.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman as well as on our personal accounts at john hodgman and at put this on

make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff our producer is the ever-capable ms jennifer marmer as aided by a giant barrel of pretzels that her dad sent her and hey jesse let me also plug the instagram of jesse char our friend thank you so much jesse for all the deep background information on the social clubs at Disney.

Jesse Char is doing some amazing stuff.

She is of Hawaiian heritage, and she's doing some amazing stuff about Hawaiian foodways and cooking

in her own personal bunker over there in San Francisco, and it's all on her Instagram.

It's at Jesse, J-E-S-S-I-E.

She was an early adopter.

Check her out.

She's great.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Kaida asks, is a book a device?

I say yes because it's a form of technology.

My friend said no, because it's not mechanical or electronic.

Wow, I had forgotten that we did Swift Justice.

I had forgotten to even check this one before we recorded it.

And it is a true throwback to is a machine gun a robot?

Is a book a device?

Uh,

what do you think, Jesse?

I don't think that it is.

I think a device.

I mean, let me put it this way.

Would you call it a gizmo?

I certainly wouldn't call it a gizmo.

Then you can't call it a device.

Sorry, Gaida.

I'm with the bailiff on this one.

If it's a device, it's a gizmo.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash jjho or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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