Live From Boston, MA at the Wilbur Theatre

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne, and I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

This week's episode was recorded in my home Commonwealth of Massachusetts at the Wilbur Theater in Boston.

We have special musical guest Josh Cantor,

the organist at Fenway Park, among many other projects.

He plays also with the Baseball Project and many other bands.

But Josh is a kind man, a virtuosic musician, and he stopped by to play organ both before and during our Judge John Hodgman show.

So let's, maybe we can hear even an organ riff to take us back into old timey times when we were all allowed to gather together in the Wilbur Theater in Boston, Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

People of Massachusetts, you've come to us desperate for justice, and we're here to deliver it to you at the Wilbur Theater in Boston.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Kristen and Jess.

Tonight's case.

Knit or get off the pod.

Kristen files suit against her friend and podcast co-host, Jess.

They started a podcast called WWKD, Wine, Whine, and Knit Day, in which they knit and talk about their lives.

Since then, Jess has started crocheting instead of knitting.

Kristen feels this is dishonest and would like Jess to exclusively work on knitting projects while they record the podcast.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers his obscure cultural reference.

Why do we care about podcasting?

It is rich and beautiful.

It helps us to better understand Euclidean geometry.

It also helps to understand shapes in nature and helps us to think about the shape of our universe, the problem that has puzzled people for thousands of years and still is an open question.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigant's in.

Kristen and Jess, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever?

Yes, yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he started knitting a sweater and he kept knitting and knitting and knitting and knitting?

Yeah, sure.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

That was a good cultural reference.

Thank you.

It's Pee Wee Herman, right?

Yeah.

Oh, you.

Ugh.

I wouldn't want to be hoist on my own knitted petard.

So, I don't know what a petard is.

Can you knit one?

Who cares?

Moving on.

Kristen and Jess, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of popular culture?

Popular culture is a stretch.

The piece of of culture, not even culture, the piece of words that I said.

Who spoke those words?

I'll give you a hint.

The term podcasting in that phrase was a substitute for another term.

It was not actually a quote about podcasting, but something else.

Let's see.

Kristen, why don't you guess first?

I am going to guess the

renowned anthropologist, Margaret Mead.

Margaret Mead, the renowned anthropologist.

Well, I can't find my pen, but I'll enter into my mental guess book.

Interesting.

A woman scientist.

Interesting.

Jess!

You've heard Margaret Mead.

Is that your guess, or would you like to make another guess?

I would like to make another guess.

Go for it.

Which, are you, wait a minute, are you the crocheter?

I am.

Yeah, okay, interesting.

I'm going to guess the Vogue knitting book.

The Vogue Knitting Book.

It is the Knitter's Handbook.

The Knitters Handbook, The Vogue Knitting Book, written by a woman who is a scientist?

Written by Anna Wintour.

Sure, yes.

And Jesse, I presume you as always guess Beawey Herman.

Yeah.

All right, all guesses are wrong.

No, that quote was from the Ted X Riga talk given by Dana Tymina, who is a, I believe, Latvian mathematician.

The phrase that was omitted and replaced with podcasting was hyperbolic plane.

You should have just had the whole audience say that together with you, John.

You guys all got it, I know.

They were all just sitting up there like, hyperbolic plane!

In 1997, that talk was given in 2012.

In 1997, though, Dana Taimina discovered a way to represent hyperbolic geometry in physical space.

And do you know how she did it?

Knitting.

No!

Crochet!

Ah!

That was a classic touche crochet.

Crochet.

She used crochet.

And do you know what the hyperbolic plane is?

No.

Jesse, do you know what the hyperbolic plane is?

Yeah, but I'd rather not say.

Right.

You must know, it's simply the greatest plane in the world.

Maybe even the universe, the absolute best.

Sine qua non, the best, the hyperbolic plane.

I don't know what it is either.

I was making a joke on hyperbole.

You see what I mean?

No, it's actually,

it's a, it is in contrast to

Euclidean space and spherical space.

Instead of being a flat plane, on which points are mapped, or a spherical plane on which points are mapped, it is a plane of constant negative curve.

And that is as far as I got in the Wikipedia before we had to start the show.

But it is true that crochet imitates or can represent in three dimensions what almost nothing else can, which is the hyperbolic geometry of hyperbolic plane.

So it's very sophisticated.

I would have hoped that someone who is into crochet would know all of this.

But unfortunately, you don't.

So now we have to hear this case.

So, Kristen, you bring this case against Jess.

Yes.

The person who is really into crochet but knows nothing about the hyperbolic plane.

She's been doing it less than a year.

Oh, my goodness.

Well, no wonder she doesn't know anything about it.

And so, how is it that you two come to know each other and knit so very much indeed?

I think we met through my mom, actually.

And she and my mom were both in grad school at the same time.

In what, what?

Grad school.

Oh, grad.

I thought you said in rascal.

Grad school.

Right.

And

I would come home on winter breaks, and she'd be hanging out basically with her classmates and I thought Jess was cool.

And then I learned to knit and during Jess's dissertation phase, that's what she did to relax.

And so that's what I would do.

What did you study in grad school?

What I like to call rascal.

I studied theology.

I was at Boston University, School of Theology, got my Master of Divinity.

Oh, wow, excellent.

And

Jess?

Yes, I was also at Boston University getting my PhD in theological ethics.

Oh, okay, great.

Wait, Kristen, were you going to graduate school with your mom?

Yep.

Oh, right.

I like this.

Yep.

Did you guys walk to school every morning holding hands?

No, because we did not live together.

I see.

What was your mom studying?

Also theology.

I would have liked it if you had said Satanology.

Why?

We've learned together.

Sure.

So, all right, fantastic.

You're Divinity students.

You met in grad school.

You discover you have a shared interest in knitting.

You start a podcast, which obviously this entire dispute is ginned up in order to buzz market your podcast on my podcast.

What is the name of your knitting podcast?

W-W-K-D podcast.

Wine, W-I-N-E, wine, W-H-I-N-E,

knitting, what?

And knitting.

And knitting, right?

Okay, very good.

And so the two of you sit around and you knit, and you talk about knitting, or you talk about anything under the sun?

Well, both.

So we have some topic we talk about for the main part of the show, and then at the end we talk about what we're crafting, or we both tend to do like philanthropic crafting, and so we'll highlight causes.

Does the crafting involve other things besides knitting?

It does.

Like what sort of things?

Scrapbooking?

I guess.

Making those airplanes out of Coke cans?

Yes.

We have had guests on our show who do all kinds of crafting.

So it would seem that it's a fairly holistic crafting show, not simply a knitting show.

I didn't say it was explicitly a knitting show, but knit is in the title.

And yet,

you have beef with your friend.

I do.

Because she has chosen to do something that is basically knitting, but not quite.

It's not the same thing.

It's not the same.

Jess?

Yes.

What is crochet?

Crochet uses a hook, only one hook instead of two knitting needles, which you use for knitting.

I see.

You can make a lot more 3D things with crochet very well.

Sure, while you're working on the hyperbolic plane, of course you can.

Exactly.

Exactly.

That's why it's so good for the hyperbolic plane.

Yeah, I mean, basically, knitting is just Euclidean, right?

Just flat stuff.

Not true.

Oh.

I'll allow it.

Hold that thought while we allow Jess to finish her thought.

So

use yarn just the way, the same way you would use

yarn.

That's interesting.

There's a very big commonality between commonality with

knitting and crochet.

But yeah,

I think it is easier, it's more transportable than knitting is.

You can.

What?

It is.

Look,

I used to have a wife.

Moria Grace had come out on this tour.

We're still married and she's still alive, but she started knitting several years ago and I've not seen her since.

But I've observed this from afar

and I have discovered that it's pretty portable.

Indeed, it can be taken anywhere.

You never have to leave it behind.

You never have to engage with other human beings so long as you have your knitting.

I think it's fair to say that both knitting and crocheting are activities designed specifically to be done while re-watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Yes, exactly.

How is crochet more portable than knitting?

Because you don't lose stitches the same way that you do.

with knitting.

So if you're using two knitting needles, your stitches can slide off.

Right.

Whereas with crochet, it's very easy to see.

Only if you're careless and lazy, though.

Well, let the record show that he's not.

I didn't mean to imply that you were in any way careless or lazy.

I apologize.

But why are you messing up your knitting all the time that you have to do a crochet?

Well, that's why I switched to crochet.

Is it really?

No.

Oh, okay.

How did you get started, and why do you like it better, and why will you never go back to knitting, no matter what your friend wants?

Number one, I never said I would never go back to knitting.

Okay, all right.

My mom crocheted when I was growing up.

She never

learned how to knit, but tried to teach me how to crochet a couple years ago, and I never picked it up.

This was back when the two of you were in graduate school.

Back when we were both in graduate school, yeah.

I only finished graduate school last year, anyway.

Congratulations.

But I

just wanted to try it because it looked like I could do more things with it.

So I taught myself how to do it.

So it is not merely an argument, which I expected, which was like, I wanted to try something different, and I don't understand why Kristen should be upset.

You're truly saying this is better than knitting.

Knitting is the worst.

No.

That is not what I'm saying.

Knitting is great, and I love knitting, and I love knit things, and I love people who knit.

But right now, I'm in a crocheting phase.

Okay.

Well, so.

Who knows what she'll be doing when she moves on to re-watching Angel?

As As long as you never move into needlepoint, I have no problem with you.

That's painting by numbers, and I do not care for it.

There is a high level of needle point, which is freehand needlepoint, and embroidery like Kendall Cooper does.

Check out my Instagram.

See an embroidered picture of my dumb cat.

Kristen?

Yes.

What's your problem with your friend exploring a new kind of yarn-based handcraft?

Well,

we started this podcast in particular.

I know about your podcast.

Everybody, check out the podcast, Wine, Wine, and Knit.

Not where I was going.

But

basically, we used to share...

I realize we are still both

yarn crafting together,

but she I feel like she's kind of left me behind because she has said that she thinks that crocheting is easier and I think you implied that you preferred it to knitting and thus like this is what I'm doing from now on and I feel a little left behind.

I feel like we started something together.

Right.

And then I think, I kid you not, in like episode two, she was like, I want to crochet.

And in episode three, she was crocheting and has not knit since then.

We're on like episode 47.

Right.

Classic podcast co-host Bait and Switch.

Like Jesse Ford, when you and I started this podcast, it was supposed to be just talking about Star Wars.

Yeah.

And then you made me become an internet judge.

Said it would be a better format, and you're right.

And all I wanted to do was talk about chain restaurants and fast food.

We could have been millionaires.

What kind of things do you make with crochet?

You brought some evidence, correct?

I did.

Let's take a look at the evidence.

These are Kristen's.

These are mine.

Oh, so this is your evidence?

This is knitting items that I have made.

So on the right-hand side is an example of a blanket I made for my cousin, who is.

Okay.

No, no, no, no.

I was just acknowledging.

Oh, that's too.

Thank you for describing it, my name.

Because usually that falls to me, and I'm terrible at it.

So I appreciate that.

For those of you listening along at home, Kristen will now describe what everyone else in the world is seeing.

It's a rainbow, it's in large stripes, rainbows.

It's not.

No, it's not.

Now I'm on the spot.

It's some blankets, some beautiful blankets that you knitted?

That I knitted for my cousin who was doing a Noah's Art theme nursery.

Oh, very nice.

And may I point out, they're flat.

They are.

They're purely Euclidean.

The stuff in the other picture are not flat.

Yeah, that's because they're balls of yarn.

No, they're not.

Oh, excuse me.

No, they're not.

And I have one here to show you.

All I saw were paper bags full of yarn, and I was having a dramatic response.

I did not consult with your wife before coming, I promise.

So, those are not balls of yarn.

You took balls of yarn, unthreaded them, and knitted them back into balls of yarn.

Sort of, yeah.

What are they exactly?

So, this is one of my main crafting for a cause projects.

They are called knitted knockers.

Have one here.

May I handle it?

You may.

This looks like, so it's like a little pillow.

It's a knit pillow that is stuffed with...

Like polyfill, like you would stuff a stuffed animal.

Well, I thought from, because you were a master of theology, it might be the hair of a saint or something like that.

Not that kind of theology.

No, okay.

So this is a knitted knocker.

Yes.

Is it...

Oh, I think I know what it is.

It's a prosthetic breast for women that have had mastectomies.

That's fantastic.

It fits inside a regular bra, and I'm part of an organization that gives them out for free to women who can't otherwise afford them.

That's amazing!

I take back everything I said about knitting being flat, pointless, and uncharitable

and selfish.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

So,

Jess.

Yes.

What incredible, charitable things have you created with your crochet skills?

I have also made knitted knockers.

No, no, I understand.

But they're knitted.

Do you see what I'm saying?

They're knitted.

It seems to me that the whole point of this case is which is better, knitting or crocheting?

I've decided.

There is a crochet pattern for knitted knockers.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, so I made, I actually recruited people to make knitted knockers

that were given to Boston Medical Center.

Okay.

Look, I appreciate that

you've also done good work in your life, but

you really are kind of drafting off of Kristen's incredible revelation right now.

Let's go to the next piece of evidence.

What do we have here?

So this was my first crocheting project because I'm an overachiever.

I made a...

What makes this an overachievement in the world of crochet?

That's a sincere question.

It looks like a big blanket, but of course, because it is crochet, it is full of huge holes and

would in no way retain heat in any way.

It also is, by the way, very flat, which really,

really rejects the whole promise of crochet as representing 3D structures and the hyperbolic geometry that...

everyone is talking about at TEDx Riga.

But it's still a beautiful piece of work.

So you created this, but it's an overachievement because it's so big, it's a lot of it, right?

Yes, so it's over 140 granny squares.

Oh, I see.

That I then had to stitch.

And that's a regular unit of measurement in crochet?

Granny squares?

Yeah.

Granny squares, right?

Yeah, it is.

Rather gendered, I would say, but go on.

That I then had to stitch together into one

piece.

And I may note as well that you are sitting here,

looks like you're sitting at your podcast station for your podcast, Wine, Wine, and Nick.

And one thing I noticed you're not doing is podcasting.

You're just showing off your crochet.

It's an audible medium.

Yes.

We also have social media for our podcast.

No, I am just.

You know, I'm just teaching.

It's a beautiful piece of work.

To be fair, John, if you want to show off crochet, audio might be the best medium.

Of course, all this evidence will be available on the Judge Sean Hodgin page at maximumfun.org, as well as our Instagram, Instagram.com/slash judge Sean Hodgman.

See, I can plug stuff too.

So this is meta.

It's our meta blanket.

Sorry.

Your meta blanket?

Our meta blanket.

Oh, geez, that didn't work out well.

Our meta blanket for the podcast, because it was created.

I forget how we

define this.

Somehow this is harder to understand than hyperbolic geometry.

I think it's a meta blanket.

It's a blanket about a blanket?

Well, I think it had something to do with that.

It was birthed from the podcast.

It came out of the podcast.

Anyway.

In some ways, it was created out of necessity when they ran out of white guys with dreadlocks for whom to make hats.

If I may add, this is an example of

justice proficiency in general.

She's like, I think I want to crochet, and it turns out like a Pinterest win instead of a Pinterest fail.

Terms I do not understand.

That sounds like a

really good.

Next slide, please.

Now, what am I seeing?

These are some examples of what Kristen makes.

Because Kristen tends to stick only to three things.

She makes baby blankets, which is the top left corner.

She makes knitted knockers.

Top right corner, and that's her cat, Ruby.

And she makes scarves, and that's all she makes.

You notice how cats really like yarn?

Yeah.

How can a creature that is so snobby embrace its cliche so heartily?

Next slide, please.

All right, now we're into some stuff here.

First of all,

going from top left,

clockwise around.

Yes.

This looks like a crochet Cthulhu.

Yes.

But without an eye.

Yes.

This looks like a teddy bear wearing a crochet cable knit sweater.

Yes.

You got a crochet baby Yoda, which is very of the moment.

Oh, look, there's one right here.

I know.

Now, folks.

I want to clarify for those of you who might not know.

Yeah.

Baby Yoda

is not the Yoda.

He's a Yoda.

Just in case anybody didn't know.

I heard you were a medium Star Wars.

Yeah, I'm a medium Star Wars.

That's why he wouldn't let me do that podcast.

So this is crochet.

This is a baby Yoda.

Yes.

Very of the moment.

Very of the moment.

Very popular.

Yes.

And then coming around again, you knitted an incredible wine glass.

That's incredible.

It's breathless.

Look at that.

I mean, it's crystal clear.

How would you even begin to do that?

It appears to be entirely non-porous.

Yes, exactly so.

And a beautiful spherical

crochet paperwork, paperweight behind it.

Paperwork.

No,

what am I seeing here?

What are you trying to show me with this exhibit?

I'm showing you some examples of the things that I have made since I've started crocheting, which again has been less than a year ago.

Right.

And so I've done a decent number of different things.

My point being, you're really good at it, and you should, and your friend shouldn't hold you back.

Well, I just think I should be allowed to make what I want to make.

How do you respond to that, Kristen?

I have not said she can't crochet.

I just think she should be knitting at some point in time.

Is there any other evidence to see?

Let's take a look.

Okay, more stuff.

Go, go, go.

Those are blankets I made.

There we go.

Oh, my turn is coming out.

This is a different cat?

Yes, this is my cat.

What is the name of this cat?

Igby.

Igby?

Igby.

Yeah.

Why do you keep him in a drawer?

He's sleeping on my husband's lap while he's doing work.

Oh, that's very good.

He's missing a tooth, so his tongue sticks out.

Oh, that's great.

Oh, I love it.

Did you have...

I'm missing a tooth.

Did you have its tooth removed so it would look cuter?

No.

Okay, good.

I'm just putting.

Idea for that corgi up there.

Yeah, that's right.

Just a quick monster check, monstrosity check there.

Any other evidence?

No, there we go.

All right.

So

I don't quite, first of all, I don't quite understand what the dispute is, Kristen.

I mean, look, she made a baby Yoda.

This is to be celebrated.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, you put that online, all of a sudden people are going to be subscribing to Wine, Wine, and Knit by the dozens and dozens.

She's made it very clear she does not want to go into a baby Yoda sales market, in all fairness.

Well, it's highly competitive right now.

Also, you get sued by Disney.

But, you know, it seems to me that this craft shares,

shall we say, strands of DNA with knitting enough.

that it is something that you could talk about on the podcast, that you could do together.

I don't understand how it makes you feel

when Jess crochets instead of knits.

So

I probably also have a bit of overachiever in me, and I can't.

How many granny squares worth?

Well, so I can't.

I can't crochet, so I can't communicate in granny squares.

You know what color baby Yoda is?

Green.

Green.

Uh-oh.

I think she was making a, she wasn't making Baby Yoda.

She was making you grow with envy.

Rubbing it in your face in a very soft way.

Do you feel jealous that you can't crochet?

Sure.

I haven't even attempted because I'm still trying to figure out knitting and Jess was also already way ahead of me in knitting whenever I started knitting and I never even got a chance to catch up because she changed her medium.

Jess, how do you feel when Kristen says she feels left behind by you as a friend and fellow craftsperson?

Because you're better than her at knitting and now you've tossed that aside like garbage.

You've moved on to crochet and all your granny squares that she doesn't even know how to make one of them.

I, I mean, I love my friend and I want to support her and if she asked me to show her how to do these things, I would be happy to do, I would be happy to do that.

Kristen, would that be a solution for you if just showed you how to crochet?

Maybe.

Have you ever asked?

No.

Have you ever offered?

No.

All right.

If I were to rule in your favor, Kristen, what would you have me rule?

That That

at least

every

five episodes, she needs to be knitting while we're recording.

She can crochet whenever she wants to.

And then all the other recordings.

It just occurred to me that as much buzz marketing as I've been doing for your podcast,

I don't know that I understand what's happening.

They're knitting.

And they're recapping episodes of Veronica Mars.

When you're recording the podcast, are you supposed to be knitting?

We usually are working on our projects.

Working on your projects.

Are you talking about your projects?

Yes.

So you're not talking about other stuff?

Not usually.

We're usually talking about it.

We're talking about the craft.

And are you concerned that crochet is going to dilute the brand?

People aren't going to know what they're tuning in for?

Well, there is a part of me that's like knit is in the title.

And so if I were to start to crochet, neither one of us are knitting anymore why are we called wine wine and knit do you think this is because it's a dumb bun that's why your podcast can be about anything

do you think that this is actually do you think those semantics are actually significant to you or is there something in the podcast that makes it essential that knitting be going on

Do you feel like it would make you a liar to crochet during a knitting, a podcast with knit in the title?

I think if we abandon knitting altogether and just quit knitting, then it seems really weird.

I'd listen to a quit knitting podcast.

You'd play it around the house, is that what you're saying?

That's right.

Well,

I'd play it.

It would be

a podcast that I would play while my wife was asleep.

Quit knitting.

Quit knitting.

No.

It's great.

I love it.

It's fantastic.

She's great at it.

What would you have?

She is great at it.

Stop.

Talk more about that in the verdict.

Now,

Jess, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

I think I should be allowed to make whatever I want because I'm still making something regardless.

It's not like I quit doing anything.

I'm still making something every episode that we record.

And I think Kristen needs to expand her horizons because she tried making a hat one time and it and failed and has not a crochet.

No, a knit hat.

Oh.

She's never, the only 3D things Kristen makes are the knitted knockers.

But she tried to make a hat once, it came out looking like a Hershey Kiss, and she has never attempted it again.

And I think she needs to go back and attempt it again.

I have a really important question here.

Yes.

It seems like each of you is very

good student achievement oriented.

Yes.

You each have advanced degrees in perhaps the most goody-two-shoes of subjects you could possibly.

I am looking right now at four goodie shoes.

Do you think,

Kristen,

that not embracing this new medium in part is a reflection of your embarrassment that you would be bad at it?

And Jess, do you think that embracing new media is a way to run from your need to be perfect at each successive medium?

Yes, for me.

I admit that.

I don't know if it's a need, running away from a need to be perfect.

I just, I like learning new things.

What's next?

Oils, performance, earthworks?

We haven't even covered all the other mediums she's done on the podcast.

Cut our one, Spiral Jetty 2.

That is a really obscure question.

Applaud it.

Yeah, Google it when you get home, folks.

What are the other ones?

Well, she drew Cinderella's Castle on a pair of shoes that she bought at Michaels.

Like, it full-on looks like Cinderella's Castle.

You drew on shoes?

Yes.

Shoe drawing?

Is this something that you're pioneering?

All right.

I like to imagine, by the way, I realized a couple seconds after you finished that sentence that Michaels is a craft store.

But before that, I was imagining you going to basically a drug dealer's house to buy shoes you can draw on.

I've made light up Mickey Ears.

There's a lot of Disney crafting that happens.

All right.

You're really looking to get sued by that company.

How long have you done the podcast for?

How many episodes?

It will be 47 this week.

Oh, your baby podcast.

Yes, right.

I see what you're saying.

Okay.

All right, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my crocheted baby Yoda flying egg.

To think it over, I'll be back in my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Kristen, how are you feeling about your chances in the case?

Not super great.

I don't want Jess to feel like she can't craft whatever she wants to craft.

I think there probably is some

jealousy on my part that she can just pick up literally whatever and be really good at it the first time around.

And I made a hat that looked like a Hershey Kiss.

Jess, how are you feeling about your chances?

I'm feeling okay.

I'm a little,

I don't want Kristen to feel bad though.

So

I don't know.

There are no winners, I think.

Well, that's our slogan on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So

I went to Brookline High School

near here.

And I went to that high school with a woman who is now my wife.

And the two of us went to high school with another woman who is now the wife of our mutual best friend.

And we're all four of us together a lot of the time, and it's quite adorable.

I've seen it.

Yeah.

It's cute, right?

It's adorable.

It's cute stuff.

Now, my wife and Christine, our friend from high school, are both avid knitters.

Also, they do other handiwork and other crafts and stuff like that.

Building airplanes out of coke cans.

That's right.

No, they don't do that.

It's mostly

yarn and

little bits of thread and string-based crafts that drive me up a tree

as someone who dislikes clutter.

Are they just bits of string all over the place and paper bags in particular?

Don't care for it.

Are they just making nests for baby birdies?

Maybe.

Yeah.

And

Christine's husband, Jonathan Colton, and I

feel left out when they are sitting there doing their handcrafts and ignoring us.

Because after all, we are white men.

Everyone should be paying attention to us.

And at one point,

we said

to our respective wives together, like, you sit there at social occasions and you knit and you knit and you knit and you knit.

How would you feel if we were out at a bar or at dinner or hanging out together?

And when you were knitting, Jonathan and I each took out a Revelle model kit of

an aircraft carrier or something and broke open some glue and started doing that and not talking to you.

And they said, we probably wouldn't notice.

It's fine.

You got the correct message.

We don't want to talk to you.

That was long ago.

Now I've come to appreciate what a lot of psychologists have already acknowledged, and physicians, which is small handcraft with bits of string and so forth, knitting and crocheting and stuff, is profoundly meditative and therapeutic and sharpens the brain.

As well,

it is a strange,

in this weird, liminal, hyperbolic space, which is a misuse of that word, but bear with me, I'm trying to draw it all together, kind of knit it all together, if you will, because I knit with words, not strings.

It exists in this place where it is at once highly personal, where you are in tune with your brain, and also highly social, where two people can be working on a completely different project and they're just doing this repetitive motion over and over again, tuning up their brain.

They're tuning into something that's going on deep in the brain while also being able to talk about the Mandalorian or whatever it is that you're interested in.

And that, I realize, is why Jonathan and I felt so annoyed, not because we were being ignored, but because we were missing out on this.

I mean, the truth of the matter is that there's a reason why there's such a history, particularly in this region of the United States, known as New England.

Have you heard about it, Jesse?

Not familiar.

Yeah, it's

the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, the state of Maine, the state of Vermont, the state of New Hampshire, Rhode Island.

I think that's it.

You know, this is a region

built on the Puritan principle of crippling emotional reticence

and the need to be thrifty and productive at all times.

And during a period of time when our forebearers, particularly

our female forebearers, were,

the idea of having therapy and talking about emotions was not allowed.

Also, women weren't supposed to have inner lives, right?

I mean,

they didn't exist to have inner lives.

Why would they have emotions, right?

But women figured out that if they knit and they created quilts, they could be together, they could talk to each other, and they could essentially meditate and become fuller, happier human beings.

So I think it's a fascinating...

I'm jealous of what you can do.

I'm jealous of the fact that you can make a fake boob and a baby Yoda.

Well done.

I think it's a valuable thing to make a podcast about.

But this speaks to the issue at hand, the conflict that you're having, which is you are both together in this partnership and in this friendship, and you are also alone, as we all are always.

Even with our closest friends, even with our spouses, we are together, but ultimately we die alone.

That is why it is important to like what you like.

That is why it is important to follow your passions and not be held back by friends who are not ready to let you go.

Looking at you, Kristen.

But also,

you have an obligation to your friend who is also, though this is not a business yet, I don't know if you're making money off of your knitting podcast.

Actively losing money.

Actively losing money.

Yeah, yarn's expensive, right?

Yeah.

But you also have a creative partnership that

needs to be nurtured and grow.

And you've heard that your friend feels left behind by you, because you're at a higher skill level than she is, and you're ditching her.

And friends don't ditch their friends.

So, Kristen, you've asked that crochet can be a part of the podcast, right?

But that it only be a portion of the podcast.

It'd be a segment, like once every five episodes or something.

Is that what you had in mind?

Yes.

Okay.

That's not enough.

Not enough crochet.

We have to find a balance between togetherness and aloneness.

And

so that Jess can do her thing, but also you guys can continue to weave together your lives.

More tapestry metaphors, easier than hyperbolic space metaphors.

I have an idea that I think is pretty good.

And that is, and I think it's going to help your podcast.

I think it's going to give it an edge.

Instead of it just being about knitting, it should be knitting versus crochet.

Like X versus Sever.

Yeah, exactly.

Now that you make that comparison, maybe it's not such a great idea.

I think you should

embrace this conflict rather than seek to erase it.

You can keep the name of your podcast.

It's good.

It should be, knitting is the backbone of the podcast.

But embrace the fact that your friend is going into this new craft and make that into a segment of the podcast.

So one segment, you're teaching her how to knit better.

Another segment, you're yelling at her for crocheting.

And talk about the relative merits of both.

I would say once, I don't think crochet should be once every five episodes.

I think it should be a segment of every episode.

While there should also be a pure knitting segment where Jess is teaching you some new knitting skills so that she doesn't leave you behind.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is all.

Thank you to Kristen and Jess.

Hey,

really quickly,

what's the name of the podcast again?

WWKD Podcast.

Wine,

Wine, Knitting

D.

Day?

You know what?

Maybe a new name.

Thank you so much.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

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Jesse, the reviews are in.

My new super soft hoodie from Quince that I got at the beginning of the summer is indeed super soft.

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And I agree agree with them.

And it goes so well with my Quince overshirts that I'm wearing right now, my beautiful cotton Piquet overshirts and all the other stuff that I've gotten from Quince.

Why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to?

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john you know what i got from quince i got this beautiful linen uh double flap pocket shirt uh that's sort of like an adventure shirt and i also got a merino wool polo shirt oh it's like a it's like a mid-gray looks good underneath anything perfect for traveling because with merino wool it like it basically rejects your stink you know what i mean it's a stink rejecting technology john says get thee behind me stink yeah exactly and you know, honestly, even if I do need to wash it, I can just wear it in the shower when I'm traveling and then

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Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

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And it will last a long time.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening and if not we just leave it out back and goes rotten so check it out on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts

all right we're over 70 episodes into our show let's learn everything so let's do a quick progress check have we learned about quantum physics yes episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lollum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Now, Jesse, we have have a lot of friends here in the Boston area, as well as quite a few litigants.

We've been here before.

We've heard cases from people here before.

Very recently, a couple in Cambridge, Massachusetts

came to our courtroom.

The existence of which you refuse to acknowledge.

Look, I've seen no proof.

You know what I mean?

Show me.

You know what I mean?

Show it to me on a map.

Impossible.

You know what I mean?

Some time ago, fairly recent time actually, a couple from Cambridge came to our courtroom asking for guidance as to whether or not

the wife of this couple should be allowed to try again

to start a new project based on a failed past project.

The failed past project was a bucket of worms

on the countertop.

How could that fail?

Yeah.

Specifically, a compost system based on worms eating old kitchen scraps and then pooping out fertilizer.

That's what worms do.

That's what the novel Dune is about.

So.

And unfortunately, it all went wrong.

That first one went wrong.

First experiment went wrong because some flies got in there and laid some eggs and they turned into horrible grubs.

that escaped.

Also, that's what Dune is about.

So

Evan asked me to prohibit Ann from starting the worm compost again, and I said, no, I want to see more worms.

And they're here with us tonight to give us an update.

Please welcome Evan and Ann.

Evan and Ann

with the Vermiculture Report from Cambridge, Massachusetts.

It is Cambridge, correct?

Yes.

Yeah.

Interesting.

People's Republic of Cambridge.

Sure.

I remember hearing that joke when I lived here as a child.

But I still don't believe in where you live.

Anyway, nice to see you in person.

Now, the way that this ended was that

I said that Anne deserved a second shot because the first worm bin got compromised.

You left it outside, right?

And you left a sign on it saying, come on, flies, and live here.

Someone else left it outside, but I gave them permission.

But she did make the sign, and the sign didn't say, come on, flies.

Come on, flies.

It said, come on, flies, into my husband's boots.

Yeah, do you have any worms in your boots?

Any grubs in your boots?

Not yet.

Not yet.

And the reason that I gave you permission, or that I ordered in your favor, Anne, I should say, because I don't give anyone permission.

They do what they want.

That I ordered in your favor and allowed you to start a second worm composting

bin was that I saw a very beautiful ceramic upscale one on a website and I bought it for you guys.

You did.

It was really nice of you.

Well, you're welcome.

Everyone look under your chairs.

You get a worm bin.

You get a worm bin.

You get a worm bin.

So I want to know.

I mean, this thing looks like it was designed by a mid-century Danish artisan.

It is white ceramic with cork involved.

It would seem very attractive, almost biological in form to me.

Though I have to say, John, immediately in our subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com, there were two strong reactions.

One was from someone who worked in municipal composting who said, unless you send it to a special place,

the worm farts kill the earth.

But a special place can capture the farts and turn them into fuel.

I didn't follow that one entirely, but I like that it had worm farts in it.

Signs, the ghost of Frank Herbert.

Yeah.

The other one was concerns about the size and viability of the attractive

vermiculture compost bin that you chose, specifically that it didn't have a spigot to run off the worm juices.

What is the special term for the worm juice?

Worm tea.

Worm tea.

I like to call it night crawler liquor.

So, look, I knew when I bought this thing for you

with the company credit card, by the way, Jesse.

Oh, thank you.

That

things that look nice don't always work best.

And I was kind of hoping that you were going to bring it here tonight so that A, I could see how big it was and how beautiful it was in person, and B, I could watch you as you smashed it at my feet and cursed my name and turned this stage into a writhing mass of worms.

But you didn't bring it with you.

So, how big is this thing?

Like, how big is it, would you say?

I'd say about the size of a corgi.

Maybe like half as tall.

About the size of a corgi, but about one millionth as opinionated.

Yeah, you took off the legs.

Yeah.

So that's pretty big.

It was like reasonably large.

So I also read all of the comments on the Reddit and Instagram.

And I would agree, someone wrote a very detailed critique of the design flaws.

So we just got it set up.

We didn't set it up before Christmas because we were away for the holidays.

Right.

Because you thought someone was going to bring you 500 to 1,000 worms and you're stopping.

Yeah, well, so that's actually one of the updates.

So

there was a stream of commenters who also critiqued me paying for worms.

And they said I spent too much on worms.

And I should have just asked a friend for some worms.

And I was like, I'm the friend with the worms.

Yeah, it's her thing.

Yeah.

So

we decided because it was a little bit smaller bin and we were concerned, well, I was concerned about the drainage.

We're just starting with 25 to 50 worms.

I feel like that's enough for Cambridge.

No.

Well, the thing about the worms is they actually like.

You would have wanted 500 to 1,000 worms.

Well, the worms self-regulate their population, so they will actually like adjust to the right size of the bin.

That's dark.

It's really dark.

I mean, I think it was someone else on Reddit did call this easily the most unfair ruling in the history of the podcast, which I thought was pretty rich.

Why was it

as rich as earthy worm loaf?

Yeah, exactly.

Which is also why we didn't really want to bring it on because I take the tea to work and just the thought of accidentally spilling

worm tea and worms all over the world.

Worm tea on the tea, that's no good, is what you say.

No, that would be a bad look.

Yeah.

I would have sent a car for you.

In fact,

can we send an Uber over to pick it up and bring it over here before the night's out?

Just don't leave it outside, I guess.

Yeah.

No,

it is very beautiful.

I would say it's not ceramic.

It is like some sort of poly material, but it's like it's a hefty one.

The pork is really nice.

It's definitely, it's actually in the middle of our dining room table right now.

Martha Stewart stuff.

Yeah.

We don't have a lot of counter space, and Evan was like so pleased that

he got his way attacking.

I don't know, you didn't really get your way at all, but I think that because I didn't get what I wanted, you felt like you got what you wanted.

It's called

now if I don't finish my salad, I can just like take the top off off the thing and pour it right in.

Right there at the table.

Yeah, right at the table.

Evan is practicing self-gaslighting.

Yeah,

but I'm very happy.

Yeah, I would say several people, including some colleagues, have reached out to me and said that they are now considering getting a worm bin.

And I would say if you're considering getting this worm bin, one thing that does seem tricky about it eventually is it would be hard to get the compost back out.

You would have to take a long break to have it be finished.

So I do think there's some kind of like ergonomic like process things.

I don't know.

I'm not like an operations person.

I mean, obviously it's still early.

Yeah.

I mean, we're like one weekend, but I'm just looking ahead.

Right.

And your optimism seems cautious at best.

Yeah.

I mean, I really want that like four tier tier tour tier one.

Say it again.

I really want that four-tier worm bin.

Yeah, that looks ugly.

Do you understand?

It is definitely.

Like, it's not a good look.

That looks like something you would have in a post-apocalyptic bunker.

Well, maybe Kristen Artess would come draw Cinderella's castle on it for me.

Oh, callback.

Yeah.

My prediction is that this beautiful piece of

worm colony art is actually a piece of s ⁇ and will not work.

And I really don't know what's going to happen

when that self-actuates.

When you realize that I bought you a piece of garbage.

I mean, it's not even,

it's a piece of garbage, it's not even good at making garbage good.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, which is the whole point of it.

And then you're going to have this dispute once more, and you'll have to come back on the podcast, and we'll talk about it again.

Well, I would say what you do is I think you really helped open the discourse around vermicomposting.

Sure.

So

it's more of like a byproduct.

It's been a long

What are you doing with the worm sparts?

I think we're being absorbed by the cork.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think you can think about these things too much.

Sorry if I care about the planet.

There's one lesson that I would like the podcast listeners to take away is don't overthink the bucket of worms you have on your dining room table.

I'm glad you have this new conversation piece.

We'll keep us posted as what goes on.

It's the worms eat and poop.

Thank you very much.

Evan and Ann, everybody.

Evan and Ann.

John, so far,

we've only distributed one justice to Boston.

I think Boston requires many more justices.

Yeah, I think that this is still a lawless land, and we have some litigants who are ready to step up and present their disputes in a statement we call swift justice.

But before we do, let's welcome back to the stage our very special guest, Josh Cantor.

Josh Cantor, everybody.

Now,

if you don't know, Josh is obviously a musician.

He's a friend of the podcast.

He has his band.

Your band is called.

Oh, Jim's Big Ego.

Yeah, that's right.

And Josh has a, among many other, he's a fan of comedy.

He's probably the world's greatest mid-career Tom Noonan lookalike.

I'm glad to bring you a bad thing.

You got bad on me for bringing up earthworks.

That's right.

And Josh also is the organist at Fenway Park.

So when you're there at the ballpark and bored out of your mind, it happens.

It's a lugubrious game.

And Josh plays some cool indie rock, that's the one who's doing it.

He's up there in the corner of a upper deck bar next to the chicken wing table, playing his heart out on the organ.

So, thank you very much, Josh, for joining us.

I really appreciate it.

So, we're gonna hear,

let's put 10 minutes on the clock, hear as many cases as we can in that time.

And, Josh, maybe you'll play a little intro and outro music for our litigants.

Sure, sure.

Great.

Let's get it going.

Sweet Justice.

Please welcome our first litigants, Joshua and Emma.

Joshua and Emma,

which of you brings this case before me for justice?

I do.

Excuse me.

And I presume you are Joshua?

I am.

And what is the nature of your dispute?

So, Emma and I are married, and we have a car, and I have a driver's license.

There's a lot of bragging so far.

And

I have a driver's license.

Whoa!

And

three pairs of shoes.

You are a real grown-up, aren't you?

Married with a car and a a license.

Next, you're going to tell me you're legal to drink.

I wear underpants every day.

And Emma does not have a driver's license.

Oh, because you're a child.

No.

No.

I'm of legal age.

You're of legal age, yeah.

You're also married.

Yes.

And you probably have some accreditation.

Sure.

And so.

I have a Massachusetts state ID.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

What kind of ID?

The Massachusetts state ID.

Still don't understand what you said.

Commonwealth.

You want to try one more time?

The state ID?

Commonwealth!

Commonwealth.

It probably says state of Massachusetts on it anyway.

It's a losing and pointless battle that I'm waging on behalf of Commonwealths.

But I'm with you there, Pennsylvania and Kentucky.

All right.

Virginia, also.

But anyway, you don't have a driver's license, and

why is this a problem?

So we

like to go on road trip-type vacations often.

Sometimes we'll drive from home, we'll go to New Hampshire for the weekend or something like that, or we'll fly somewhere and rent a car and drive several hundred miles stopping at various points along the way.

We know what road trips are sir.

We'll use the round wheel on the left hand side of the front of the car to change directions.

There are two pedals at the bottom of the car.

Sometimes we will turn on a radio or a Bluetooth device to listen to a podcast.

We look at scenery as we go by.

What are the kinds of road trips that you go on?

So, most recently, we did a five-day trip between Houston and New Orleans.

I believe you have some

evidence.

So, up on the screen.

Thank you, Connor.

This is the route you took from Houston to New Orleans.

New Orleans.

Yes.

So we stopped along the way.

Yeah, road trip.

We got it.

It's fun.

But the point is, you do all the driving.

Yes.

And you would like to not do all of the driving.

I would like to not

always have to be doing all the driving, but I think there's also a safety component to it.

Oh.

In case there was some kind of an emergency,

I'm the only licensed driver.

Emma, do you know how to drive?

Somewhat.

In an emergency?

There's a round wheel.

I can't really park.

You can't park?

No, no one can.

So do you feel that you could drive in case of an like, what kind of emergency do you imagine is going to happen, Josh?

I don't know.

I have a stroke.

Yeah.

If you're driving and you have a stroke,

I don't think Emma being licensed to drive is going to help your situation.

Or a cocktail.

Maybe.

Or two.

I would think if you're driving and have two cocktails, that's an emergency for your marriage.

We have had a case where

it was a husband and wife situation.

And they only had a manual transmission, and the wife could drive, but she didn't know how to drive a manual.

And I ordered her because they had a child they I ordered that she should learn how to drive a manual shift car a so that if necessary you could drive a person to the hospital and B because it's awesome to know how to drive a manual transmission car it's fun it's fun and knowing how to do things and being legal to do them is also fun

So why, Emma, given this precedent and given the

obvious life truth that knowing how to do things and being allowed to do them legally is fun, and hitting benchmarks and milestones in life as you grow older and march eventually towards death is fun.

What is your reason for not wanting to learn to drive properly and get a license?

Well, I don't think driving is particularly fun, but it's a necessity.

And I've taken driving lessons.

It's just I haven't taken the exam yet.

Right, okay.

So you don't like it?

Nope.

Okay.

Not at at all.

And you live in a city where you don't have to drive.

I know, right?

Yeah, I do.

In fact, you live in a city where it's advisable that you never drive.

You're raising your finger?

Well, I just, okay, so there's,

can we look at the next picture?

Right, please look at the next picture.

I didn't see him raise the finger.

Was he raising the official finger of Massachusetts drivers?

Wrong picture.

Wrong, this is the wrong picture.

You may not have noticed, but Josh raised an index finger very subtly and politely, which is how a Boston driver indicates they'd like to move into the next lane.

It's the wrong picture.

Sorry.

This is the wrong picture.

This is a picture of.

Yes, this is her evidence.

You and Emma.

There's one more picture.

Where are you in this photo, Emma?

Well, we were in an all-inclusive in Cancun where we did not have to drive.

Well, he didn't have to drive.

And we had a lot of fun, too.

You managed to have fun without driving.

I know, right?

From Houston to New Orleans.

Right.

Okay, that's fine.

It looks like you're having a good time.

Next slide, please.

There we go.

Okay, so

we

come back, buddy.

Let the record show, I am looking for evidence

that is going to sway me to Josh's side of the case.

He's very eager to see a particular slide.

We see them.

We see them in Cancun together.

Joshua is like, no, no, no, no, no, that's the wrong slide.

I have a very particular slide in mind that's going to pertain directly to my case, that Emma should learn how to drive.

And then we get to the slide of a snowy field and a dog leaping over a stream, and Joshua goes, there we go.

It might as well have been a crocheted baby Yoda.

for all that it seems to have to do with what you're talking about.

But I bet you're going to leave me a word picture that proves what's happening here.

What's going on in this photo that I need to pay attention to?

So this is in the White Mountains

in New Hampshire.

And it is not just a snowy field.

This is a trail, several miles long.

I understand what a trail is.

You can't see it, but we are wearing crampons.

Crampons.

Yes.

And the snow is very deep on either side of the trail.

And I fell in up to my

waist several times.

Yeah.

And that is our dog, yes.

What's the name of your dog?

Christopherson.

That's good.

That's good.

Second tier.

First tier is hambone.

And for example.

If we were in the White Mountains in the snow and I were to

break an ankle or something, no cell phone reception,

who's going to drive to the hospital?

Or what if something happens to the dog?

Where is the car?

Several miles down the trail.

So it doesn't matter.

Everyone pictured will die.

The dog would pull me out on a makeshift.

The dog would pull you out.

Hold on, I want to hear

the whole fantasy you have.

You would lash together branches.

You'd lash together branches and lay me on the branches and the dog would have to go.

The dog would?

Forget.

Yeah, I think he could do that.

He's a small to medium size.

How come the dog doesn't have a driver's license?

Answer me that.

He's got a sweet, you've got a sweet harness.

You could put a flask of whiskey in there and also a note saying,

save me from dying.

Enjoy this whiskey in return.

I had a couple of cocktails and I fell in the snow and my grandpa's fell off.

I rest my kids.

Do you know how to use it?

All right, I find an Emma's favorite.

Please welcome Michael and Maggie.

Josh Canter, do you know how to drive?

Yes.

Good.

Thank you.

I don't, but I know how.

Wait, you know,

I don't drive.

You know about the roundie and the pedals and.

Right.

Okay.

Do you, do you, do you, uh.

I brought this on the subway, so.

Oh, okay, great.

Are you licensed to drive?

Yes.

Okay.

Oh, hi, you guys.

You must be Michael and Maggie.

Yes, hi.

Michael, you're wearing a Hartford Whalers cap.

Greatest sports logo of all time.

That's right.

I heard your insult earlier.

Say it again.

I heard your insult earlier.

My insult?

About Connecticut.

Oh, about Connecticut.

Oh, yeah,

it's just some inter-regional Joshin.

Yeah.

It's okay.

No one really knows what Connecticut is anyway.

Yeah,

it's like the Cambridge of States.

It's rumored.

It's rumored.

Basically, what happens is I drive over a border and it says Connecticut welcomes you and then I fall asleep until I get to Massachusetts.

I

I go into this trance.

I really only know it as an address on the back of a pill bottle.

Oh, okay.

We actually had a great meal in Union, Connecticut today.

Oh, we did.

Traveler restaurant, books, and food.

Yeah.

Have you ever been there?

No.

Oh, and I thought you were from Connecticut.

Hartford's a little far away.

Hartford's not very far away from Hartford.

Yeah, Connecticut is a state.

Did you drive state, dude?

Did you drive from Hartford today on 84?

No.

No, okay.

Because it's just right there over the line.

You get a tune to melt, you get three books for free.

They just buy up, they just take books out of libraries that are closing

and give them away.

And a bunch of Tom Clancy's.

Anyway, hi.

You both know how to drive?

What's the problem?

Who wants justice?

All right.

Michael, what is the justice you seek?

So we have a four-year-old and an eight, nine-month-old now.

And I took the four-year-old, he was two when I took him to a store.

I'm not going to buzz market.

He's okay.

Supermarket?

Nope, nope.

Target.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's not okay.

I'm sorry.

You were right, I was wrong.

She was at work.

She's a nurse.

She works overnights.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

You're a nurse.

Fantastic.

Thank you.

I rule in your favor.

Next.

Michael, what do you do besides complain?

I'm an auto appraiser.

Say again?

Auto appraiser.

Auto appraiser.

All right, cool.

Yeah.

You definitely know how to drive a car then.

Yes.

Right, good.

So I go to load my son on the cart.

Yeah.

The shopping cart.

Yeah.

I ask him if he wants to go in the front or the back.

Right.

So he says, I want to go in the front.

So I go to load him in the basket where everything goes.

Right, where you the

front.

Right, right.

The dangerous area that children should be allowed to go to is to ride in.

The seat says not to put them there.

Yeah, not the child seat near the push bar.

Correct.

Right?

Did you just toss your child into the main basket?

Yes.

Like a bag of oranges.

So he can roll around in there.

Right.

And get

metal mesh marks on his face and stuff.

Right.

Did you at least give him crampons?

So I go to load him into the front of the cart.

Right.

And he says, no, I want to go in the front.

Uh-huh.

And I say, This is the front.

He's like, No, it's not.

So he goes, Mommy says, The other side is the front and points to the seat.

And

so I'm going to get this

straight.

I'm at a store,

unnamed variety store, with a classic grocery push cart, right?

And I'm standing with my hands on the push bar, right?

Correct.

Okay, you can picture this.

I mean,

I'm not a mime

by training,

but by inclination.

And I'm pushing on it.

Mind my hobby.

Okay, so here I am.

I'm going this way.

This end that I'm pushing,

what end is that?

The front.

Why?

I suppose that it is from the perspective of the passenger and when they're in the seat up front, they're with me in the front, and if they're in the bucket, they're in the back.

Right, so...

And just like in a car.

I've heard that argument before.

If you're sitting in the seat of a car

and you're facing this way,

and your mommy is pushing you this way,

this is obviously the front of the car.

Correct.

Right, just like when you're driving and you're going like this.

It might not make sense, but it's how it is.

Actually, now I understand.

It's like you're driving a car in reverse.

It's a clear.

This is more physical activity I've had in months.

So

it's from the point of view of your child.

Yes.

Imagine them driving in reverse.

They're sitting facing this way.

This would be the front.

You appreciate how much mind work has to go into this.

I do.

It is rather counterintuitive.

How did you start thinking of it this way?

Did you grow up this way?

Yes.

I've never thought of it anything different, and I never realized it was a point of contention with Mike and I until two years ago.

And we've known each other for over 12 years.

So it only came about when the children started riding in the car.

Right, that's when they started narking on you, going, Mommy calls this the front

exactly.

And and and and and Michael is like, Who did I marry?

It's like

it's like it's like when McNulty finds all those samurai swords in Idris Elva's apartment in the wire.

Who was I tracking?

Get back to something everyone can relate to, like monumental artworks utilizing the land.

Spiral jetty.

Yeah.

So where did you grow up?

South Shore.

South Shore of what?

Massachusetts.

Oh, south.

Best Commonwealth ever.

Is that some kind of upside-down land?

Did other people in your family refer to grocery carts this way?

So we've polled a lot of family members and friends, and my entire family agrees with me.

So

I blame my mother and what she taught me.

Are there people who agree?

Thank you.

Do you people pull the cart through the store?

Easy, easy.

Bob Justice is later.

Somebody just went, no, it's just the front.

Sounds like my son.

No matter what the crooked media tells you.

In this podcast, we celebrate regionalisms.

It gives interesting tapestry and texture to everyday life to know that in South Carolina they drink cheer wine, whereas in Maine they drink moxie.

That there are different ways you pronounce things.

That there are different ways that there are different greeting conventions.

I am willing to accept

that in the South Shore there is a microclimate.

I have a large family.

No,

I understand.

It's a lot of us.

You said we polled family and friends, and my family all agree.

You ignored the friends.

A lot of the mothers agreed with me.

Sure.

Okay, I understand that some.

No data to back that up, but.

No, No, no, I'm just saying some convention grew up, some convention of understanding grew up in the microclimate of the South Shore that is a profoundly counterintuitive understanding.

No offense to you yellers in the group.

I think now more than ever, however, I mean, I respect regional difference, but we need...

We need to establish some baselines of reality that we can all agree on.

And I have to say, I feel

that most people would agree that the leading edge of any vehicle that is moving in that direction would be the front

and that the leading edge that is moving this direction is the back.

I'm sorry, you and your you and your various moms can call it whatever you want, but I want you to raise your kids to be part of the whole world.

So at the very minimum, I'm going to say, and I hate to say it, teach the controversy.

Michael and Maggie, please welcome Chloe and Matt.

Chloe and Matt.

Yes, yes.

Who comes to this court seeking justice?

I do.

It is I, Chloe.

And what justice do you seek?

My husband here

has not ever in his entire life owned a cell phone.

Oh!

Yes, I get that reaction a lot.

You're not married to him.

Select fans out there, okay.

There's a Grand 12 support already for Matt.

Some.

Yep.

And I would like him to get one for the car for emergencies.

Sure, seems perfectly reasonable.

I mean, after all, what if you're driving around and your crampons are...

I was going to say if I misplaced my crampons.

Yeah, your crampons stick to the accelerator and you can't stop the car.

To order more crampons.

Yeah, and then you go into a ditch and you need some help.

What are you going to do?

Yeah.

Wait a minute.

Do you know how to drive?

Yes.

You're a licensed driver.

Fully licensed, yes.

You accept certain forms of technology.

Completely, yes.

This is not a crusade on my part.

I'm not saying nobody should own a cell phone or, you know, it's bad for the world.

Live and let live is your feeling.

I'm saying it's not for me.

Why is it not for you?

Because being the idea of.

You don't want the government to track you?

Yeah, yes, the black helicopters.

No.

I don't need it for my job.

I don't need it necessarily socially.

I am involved with the social media and whatnot.

And

I don't want to be...

I guess the idea.

You are involved with the social media.

Yes.

So you don't have a phone.

The book of faces and whatnot.

Yeah.

Do you

dial it up on your compact brosario?

That's right.

Right into CompuServe.

Yeah.

What do you do for a living?

I'm gainfully employed and have been for 17 years.

I am an accountant.

Great.

So there's no dire need of, quick, I need to get hold of Matt.

What's two plus two?

Let's

get him immediately on the phone.

But you have clients.

Yes, yeah.

And how do they reach you?

There is a phone

that exists.

Yeah, that's right.

Your rotary, that's right.

Or I do have email and all the rest of that stuff, so I'm not absent forms of content.

Christopherson, the dog, brings you messages from afar.

Yeah, way better than Lassie, yeah.

Okay, and so you've just never had, is it that you just never had one and you don't see why?

Correct.

All right, I've never adopted it, right?

But

Chloe has said why.

She wants to feel secure that when you're out there on the road doing your door-to-door CPA or whatever it is,

how much do you travel?

How far does he travel, Chloe?

He works in Andover, which is 30 miles north.

Right, okay.

Our car also does not have a spare tire.

Oh, there's a bunch of things.

Oh, that's bad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you have like AAA or do you have roadside assistance and insurance?

You call that

from the side of the road.

Matt, she makes a good case.

Have you ever had a breakdown or a flat tire?

Never have.

Also, it never will happen.

Of course, yeah.

In perpetuity.

My maintenance schedule is regular and comprehensive.

This is true.

Yes, we've been told more than once that our car is in excellent condition from performance.

What kind of car do you have?

I mean, excuse me, what kind of Subaru do you have?

Right.

We actually have a Hyundai Elantra.

Oh,

okay.

Get a Subaru.

Anyway.

Yes.

So there's that.

But anyway,

it must have come with a spare tire.

Nope.

No, it didn't.

Did you bought it used?

No, he wanted that car, and he does most of the driving, and I said, okay.

How did you get it without the spare tire?

It came with this little kit that's supposed to fix all punctures, but I'm dubious about this concept.

Yeah.

And obviously, because you're dubious, you're taking no action.

Oh, clearly.

Yeah, that's right.

So the car doesn't have...

I had a car for a while that didn't have a spare tire,

but it had run-flat tires,

and a pressure sensor, so it would tell you if there was a hole in your tire, and you could drive a pretty fair distance.

Yes, that's correct.

So I will know when an emergency is about to ensue.

Do you have that on the Elantra?

Yes.

What do you call that?

Well, not run-flats.

Run-flat tires.

I don't work for run-flats.

Yeah, run-flat tires have like strong sidewalls, so you can drive, I don't remember, 10 or 20 miles on them.

Oh, okay, good.

Okay.

I would imagine, I mean, this is one very specific circumstance in which you could be left high and dry

on the hard highways and byways and

mass pikes.

And mass holes, don't forget.

Yes, that's right.

That's right.

There are other, I mean, anything could happen.

Are there those roadside telephones in Massachusetts to use to call emergency services?

Yeah, but none of them work.

No, there are.

But I mean, I don't know what roads you're taking to get to Redover.

They're in museums now.

No,

I firmly, this may be a firmly naive belief that

the concept of da-da-da still holds some currency in this day and age.

Yeah, but you understand that we also, you live in a part of the world where

there might be another winter before too long.

Preferably, yeah, one under the water.

I mean, I'm hoping there will be a real winter again, but who knows?

Right.

That it might be if you were to have some

a bad accident

or

be sitting by the side of the road and it's cold out,

run out of fuel before someone comes along.

I mean,

this is basically Mad Max World.

You know that.

I would also like to put on record that I'm not asking for him to get the latest iPhone.

I want whatever today's equivalent of a Nokia brick is.

Yeah.

I mean this seems like a very basic safety tool to have.

And I really don't see any reason why I should not order you to get one.

I'm resigned to your judgment whether that be the latest Samsung Galaxy, whatever, or if it's a jitterbug.

You're not even bothering to put up a defense.

Well, because I'm sure society is not in favor of this viewpoint.

I think his defense, Judge Hodgman, is, in an emergency, what do you have if you do not have your principles?

Yeah,

you have frostbite and bleeding out of the leg bite.

I mean, but just for the sake of argument, argue.

Grrr.

Let's see here.

I...

You have until our noses touch.

I will not back off until you start speaking.

I do believe that, you know,

an invasion of space

is still a violation regardless of whether I can call it in on a cell phone or not.

However.

Are you from New England?

Not originally.

Oh, but you chose to live here.

That's right.

So this closeness must be painful.

It's unusual.

Where are you from originally?

Originally from Indiana.

Indiana.

That's right.

Those are wide open spaces.

Correct.

All right.

So you're talking, so I'm backing off.

That's right.

And I will acknowledge in the...

it may be, I'm going to offer you an argument since you don't care to make one yourself.

That's fine.

That's fine.

Which is that

Chloe says that Andover is 30 miles away.

To a person from Indiana, that is next door.

That is practically true.

This is not feel like a place where you would be really lost in a wilderness and unable to hail someone down.

Practically true.

And the likelihood of that person being a serial killer is maybe only 30%.

He also goes on fairly long road trips, at least once a year.

you're actually

Where do you go on road trips?

Back home.

Back home to Indiana.

That's right.

And you don't have a GPS or anything.

I do have GPS.

All right, that's right.

There we go.

I mean, here's the thing, Matt.

I mean, I just don't get the resistance because you...

You have your compact Cresario, you have a sweet digital watch,

you have a Hyundai Elantra,

you're willing to use a GPS.

You're not anti-technology, you're being tracked already because of the satellite.

Undoubtedly, right?

So, why not just throw, for emergency sake, a charged flip phone into the center console of the car just in case something should happen?

Are you a survivalist?

I have no bunker that I'm aware of that

was stopped with anything.

How does it make you feel when your husband's on the road and you can't reach him?

I just pray that I'm not a widow.

Yeah.

How does that make you feel, Matt?

Everything about solid driving records kind of wilts in comparison.

Yeah.

Putting it that way.

Because past performance isn't guarantee of future performance.

Come on, you work in finances.

It's a fair argument.

Yes.

You should get,

here's what you need to get.

Okay.

You should get a spare tire.

You should get

a safety blanket, a reflective blanket to put in the back of your car and a first aid kit.

That's already there.

The first aid is.

Yeah, the safety blanket is the first aid.

Yeah, right.

Well, yeah, so good.

Good job.

You're almost there.

Okay.

You get a portable tire inflator.

$100 on any internet

retailer.

Right.

Very, very valuable to have.

Get a flashlight.

A crossbow.

He's quite the indoor cat.

I don't think you could do that.

Look, do I need you have to use it, but brandish it?

Do I need camouflage as well?

You don't have to go to the sporting goods store and get a crossbow like that.

You can go somewhere you're already going.

The Renaissance fair.

Yeah.

Maybe grab a halberd as well.

Yeah.

And a falcon.

And

an unkillable, dumb flip phone that will charge in your car and be there in case of an emergency, just in case something should happen.

A deer could

canter out into the road.

And you could smash into it.

Your car would be totaled.

And then you want to call Chloe and say, it's okay.

I just killed a deer.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Chloe and that.

Thank you to all of the Judge John Hodgman litigants who shared their cases with us at the Wilbur Theater in Boston.

And our thanks to the staff of the theater who are kind and gracious hosts.

As always.

Yes, indeed.

Our thanks to Tom McCaffrey for naming the case NIT or Get Off the Pod.

This week's episode, recorded by Matthew Barnard, edited by Jennifer Marmer, and produced by the ever-capable Ms.

Hannah Smith.

Thank you, Hannah.

You can follow us on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman and on Twitter at Hodgman and at Jesse Thorne.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJ Ho or email hodgman at maximumfun.org.

No case is too small.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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