Objection! Sustainable

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Objection, Sustainable.

Hallie files suit against her fiancé, Ramsey.

Hallie is serious about conservation and living her life in an eco-friendly way.

Ramsey admires what she does, but he doesn't think he can live up to her high eco-standards.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Americans make more podcasts than anyone else on the planet, throwing away about 7.1 pounds per person per day.

Across a lifetime, that rate means on average we are each on track to generate 102 tons of podcasts.

Each of our bodies may occupy only one cemetery plot when we're done with this world, but a single person's 102-ton podcast legacy will require the equivalent of 1,100 graves.

Much of that content will outlast any grave marker, Pharaoh's pyramid, or modern skyscraper.

One of the few relics of our civilization guaranteed to be recognizable 20,000 years from now is the live podcast episode.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Hallie Ramsey, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he buys yogurt in bulk and stores it in the skulls of his fallen enemies?

We do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Hallie and Ramsey, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favorites.

Can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered this, the fake internet courtroom of Judge John Hodgman?

Hallie, let's start with you.

It sounded like a article or something written about food waste, but then with the tombs tombs and it outlasting, it seems like it would be about plastic or like used computer parts.

No, it was all about podcasts.

We're making too many podcasts, Hallie.

No, no, you guess right.

I was subbing in podcasts for the actual subject of this piece of writing.

Okay.

Can you, what's your guess as to what the piece of writing is?

Oh, okay.

Maybe

you write that column in, I think, the New York Times.

It's you're berating someone for

too much waste of either food, plastic, or computer parts.

So your guest Hallie is a Judge John Hodgman column in the New York Times magazine.

It appears every Sunday in the New York Times magazine.

And as has once again been proven, an amazing fact of this earth.

Everyone who knows the column does not know the podcast exists.

Everyone who listens to the podcast is not sure where the column is.

But that's fine.

I'm happy.

I'm happy to have two diverse

readership, listenership of people who like fake fights.

Okay.

Good guess.

I'm putting it in the guest book.

What about you, Ramsey?

I would have to go maybe a little wild here.

Since I'm unfamiliar, it may be a passage from the Bible.

Hmm.

The Christian Bible?

The one we usually talk about in the Western tradition?

It could be somebody's Bible.

I can see you're going to be fun, Ramsey.

All right, we'll put that in the guess book.

I think it will come as no surprise to Ramsey, at least, that all guesses are wrong.

Hallie, I appreciated your flattering guess.

There's no way I could put that into the New York Times magazine because that I'm using my computer right now to figure out that itself is 110 words.

My thing can only be a max of 185, including the question.

So I doubt that I would have been as long-winded or, frankly, as well-written as that.

And it's not the Bible, Ramsey.

It seemed biblical.

No, it's from a book.

Book called Garbology, Our Dirty Love Affair with Trash by Edward Humes.

And if you think that that's my favorite book, I have no idea because I just got that quote off of Goodreads.

This is one of the ones where I just was like, I don't know, this thing's about recycling, right?

And sustainability and garbage.

I guess I'll just search Goodreads for recycling quotes.

And that was the the quote I got.

I hope that Edward Humes is not a creep of some kind, but he's an okay person.

So let's get into this, Hallie and Ramsey.

Hallie, you bring the case against Ramsey.

What is the nature of your dispute?

Well, we have very different attitudes and feelings about sort of living life in a way that takes into account the crumbling infrastructure and climate and earth around us.

So since I was like 12, I've been very mindful of trying to reduce what I buy or reuse what I buy.

So I guess what that looks like in practice is

I don't buy new things unless I can help it.

I reuse glass jars and use them to store things.

I try not to buy anything in single serving containers.

I sort of wash out like bags and then reuse them.

I haven't bought Ziplocs in, I don't know, maybe 15 years.

Whoa, whoa.

I actually don't know if I've ever bought Ziplocs.

They just come my way in the course of life, and then I just use them until they have wholesale.

You're getting them from the Ziploc fairy?

No, like, you know, if somebody will give me something in a Ziploc, or I might rescue one out of a garbage can if it's like mostly clean and it's just right on top, people throw things away that you wouldn't believe.

You're dumpster diving for Ziploc bags?

This is the tone of voice of admiration.

You'll have to understand.

Incredulous admiration, to be clear.

Yeah.

No, no, I credit.

I credit.

I believe that she's doing it.

It's just so easy to

take a Ziploc that just is lying right on top of something that has almost nothing in it and then give it a quick rinse.

It's just so easy.

I agree that what you describe is easy.

I just find that it is in my life, perhaps my eye is not as trained as yours.

It is not often in my life that I'm strolling by an open garbage container to find a basically empty Ziploc lying on top as if to to tempt me.

If that were the case, I would think that maybe someone was setting a trap for me.

This all sounds extremely admirable to me, Ramsey.

What is your beef with the way Hallie lives her life?

Because it makes me feel really guilty about myself.

Oh,

I forgot.

You're a man.

You can't be allowed to feel guilty about yourself.

Well, I mean, in some ways, if we all lived like Hallie, the world would be a much better place.

There is nobody I know who has a smaller footprint on this earth who is more thoughtful.

But it comes to such an extreme to me that I don't think I could ever come up to her standards.

And I see, as she's coming to my place, that she has to talk herself down from her anxieties, noting my waste

and my lack of thoughtfulness for this pure earth compared to hers.

That seems very sweet, the way you phrased that.

But Ramsey, I've seen the photos you sent in.

Are you sure you want to come on here after taking a fake oath to be truthful and say that your whole issue here is that it makes you feel like you cannot live up to the glory that is Hallie?

So you're right.

You know, for instance, yesterday we had dinner and we were...

Hallie was cleaning the counter with a paper towel, which I was like, oh, great.

I wasn't sure where the paper towel came from because there's no paper towel roll.

Well, the top of some open garbage can somewhere.

Well, after she was done cleaning the water off the counter, she squeezed it and then hung the paper towel so she could reuse it.

So I think there's a little bit too much involved.

It seems to me that the amount of energy necessary to make yourself feel good about keeping the earth nice and clean and perfect is just a little bit much when you look around this world and see the terrible waste.

And, And, you know, you could do all your best, but look at the neighbor next to you.

There's just no way that you're winning this game.

And for me in my life, I just, there's only, I care, but there's only so much I'll inconvenience myself.

Thank you for your honesty, Ramsey.

I love how quickly you pivoted from, I just don't think I could live up to her, to.

the person I love does a weird thing with a paper towel and it's pointless.

Because it sounds like this is a very mature relationship.

You are in love with each other, correct?

Yes.

Absolutely.

And yet you mentioned, Ramsey, that this comes up when she visits you or you visit her.

You do not currently cohabitate.

Is that right?

So, yes.

So while we're all, you know, lovey-dovey and just engaged and excited.

And very, when I'm at her place, I'm very respectful for her rules.

And when she's at my place, she's respectful of my rules, even though she has to have the little hyperventilation moments.

When we live together, I'm not, I'm hopeful that we can come to a compromise.

You said that you are just engaged.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

When did you get engaged?

Two days ago.

Wow.

Congratulations.

That's wonderful.

So you both sent in some evidence, and it's highly photographic.

All the photos will be posted on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page and on the show page at maximumfun.org, of course.

And Hallie, you sent in some photos.

They are pictures of your open cupboards full of stacks of old plastic, large like yogurt containers, a very admirable horde of glass jars that you've cleaned out.

Including what appears to be a fair number of otherwise disposable kombucha vessels.

Well, the thing is, I make my own kombucha, and so I reused the kombucha bottles many times.

When you say piles of yogurt containers, and these are, I see one that says cottage cheese, but they're the large-scale yogurt containers, the kind that you would buy that have maybe, I don't know, 32 ounces or something of yogurt, not the little cups.

Right.

And you've said that this is not all of them, and I am seeing what I would characterize as dozens in the picture.

I'm seeing a tower of at least,

I'm not sure how many of these ridges are the lids.

Oh, the lids are behind.

There's at least 40 of them here, I would say.

Well, I also make my own yogurt, and so I use all those yogurt containers for the yogurt I make.

And then the containers, and then the ones that are clear I use for food that I cook.

Like, they're just very good containers.

I understand the words that you're saying.

They paint a very admirable and virtuous picture, and I admire you.

You have virtue.

I'm not sure you understand what the photos are saying.

People should go to the Instagram and look at the evidence that Hallie submitted in her own defense, which is cupboards full

of yogurt canisters and glass jars

with the specific proviso.

As Jesse pointed out,

in her evidence, she says, these are some of them, but not all of them, because I have more exclamation points.

That's her defense.

The way these make me feel, and I think you can speak to this, Hallie, in a way that might be informative.

But the way looking at these piles of containers makes me feel is that

you are

motivated, and I won't speculate by what,

not to throw away single-use containers,

but

that

this has not led

to that much management of your intake of single-use containers.

Because if these are the empty ones, plus I presume this is not on a day when you had no food in the refrigerator or whatever.

This truly does border on a hoard.

It presents as hoardy.

I'm just going to say that.

Well, okay, just a couple of things.

So some of those containers I did not bring into my own home.

I rescued when other people were going to throw them away.

So

I don't bring in that much.

But also I'm very, I feel like I see gleaming neat stacks of containers to bring to parties and then I'm like, I'll just leave it there.

Like you can keep this food.

I give food, like if I'm bringing food to someone who's had surgery or something, I can just pack it up in these containers and give it to them.

So there's like a flow in and out.

And also, I am willing to compromise.

So I feel like I could restrict to a cupboard.

You know, I want a cupboard for my glass containers and I want a cupboard for plastic.

Like, but I'm willing to compromise.

In a way, it would be a relief, frankly, to have there be a limit.

I won't deny it.

Hallie, you intend to cohabitate with Ramsey upon your marriage?

This is why it matters, because we won't live in two different places where our own rules can, you know, exist in our own.

We're going to eventually share space.

And so there just has to be movement.

What is your vision for what the rules will be in your shared home?

Well, we don't have to use the word rules, even though we have been.

We've been using the word rules.

Even though I just used that after you used it, immediately after you used it.

No, you're right.

I'm not denying it.

We have been using the word rules, but I feel like that presents a picture where

one of us is trying to control the other, and neither of us wants to do that.

Without rules, it's a slippery slope.

I think, once again,

I appreciate, I'm sorry to have put you on the defense, although both litigants have to defend their points of view in any courtroom.

A, what you are doing with this stuff is very admirable.

And B, you can't help it that a cupboard full of yogurt containers looks like trash, literally like trash.

It just looks like, it looks, it looks like trash.

I think it looks beautiful.

Well,

I think you are seeing it from your point of view, and I shall not erase that.

And in a moment,

we'll go to Ramsey's evidence and see what he has documented.

But first, you have also sent in one piece of evidence.

Bagel the cat supervising the non-recycling effort.

This is...

Why is a cat?

Do you keep your cat under the sink?

Bagel the cat is looking at

a small kitchen bin full of juice and pickle boxes and jars.

But bagel, is bagel a he, she, or a they?

Bagel is a she, and as of any cat, if you open a cupboard, it's going to want to investigate.

Not my cat.

If you open a cupboard in my house,

my cat, Lolo, the dumbest cat in the world, is just going to stare into space.

That cupboard could be full of mice.

Not interested.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The braised short ribs, made in, made in.

The Rohan Duck Riders of Rohan, made in, made in.

That heritage pork chop that you love so much, you got it.

It was made in, made in.

But made-in isn't just for professional chefs.

It's for home cooks too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made-in cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable than some of the other high-end brands.

We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

I have a little carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

And I know that she can you know she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

She can use it to braise if she wants to use it to braise um

it's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery and and it will last a long time and and whether it's uh griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware i mean you know jesse i'm sad to be leaving maine soon but i am very very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookware.com.

That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in.

My new super soft hoodie from Quince that I got at the beginning of the summer is indeed super soft.

People cannot stop touching me and going, that is a soft sweatshirt.

And I agree with them.

And it goes so well with my Quince overshirts that I'm wearing right now, my beautiful cotton Piquet overshirts and all the other stuff that I've gotten from Quince.

Why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to?

Quince has the good stuff.

High quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers for warm weather and increasingly chilling leather all at prices that make sense everything I've ordered from Quince has been nothing but solid and I will go back there again and buy that stuff with my own money John you know what I got from Quince I got this beautiful linen uh double flap pocket shirt uh sort of like an adventure shirt and I also got a merino wool polo shirt.

Oh, it's like a it's like a mid-gray, looks good underneath anything, perfect for traveling Because with merino wool, it like it basically rejects your stink.

You know what I mean?

It's a stink-rejecting technology, John.

It says, get thee behind me, stink.

Yeah, exactly.

And, you know, honestly, even if I do need to wash it, I can just wear it in the shower when I'm traveling and then

roll it in a towel and it's pretty much ready to go.

Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes.

Quince has wonderful clothes for women, men, kids, babies.

They have travel stuff.

They have gifts.

They have quilts and bedspreads.

They've got everything.

Go over there and find out for yourself.

Keep it classic and cool with long-lasting staples from Quince.

Go to quince.com slash JJ Ho for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

That's q-u-i-n-ce-e.com slash jjho to get free shipping and 365-day day returns.

Quince.com slash JJ Ho.

Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom for more justice.

Ramsey, you sent in sub photos.

The caption here is servers dropped these off at lunch.

Hallie snagged them.

Tell me what we're talking at here.

Well, we went to

lunch at a Mexican restaurant, and there were no napkins initially on the table.

And the server dropped, you know, a stack of napkins.

It looks like there's maybe 20 of them at least, on the table for us to use.

And, you know, normally I would have just used the one or two or five, whatever, to eat my Mexican food and walked off.

But Hallie was like, oh, look at these napkins.

And she put them in her purse to take home.

Can I just, I mean, I actually wasn't happy to get the napkins.

I wasn't like, ooh, score napkins.

I was upset that so many napkins had been brought.

And certainly I didn't take them off the table until everyone at the table had used all the napkins they wanted to use.

It was your impression, I presume, that the restaurant probably would have just thrown those napkins away rather than reusing them for another table.

That's what I figured.

Yeah, I think that's probably true.

Ramsey, you also sent in a picture here of it looks like a bottle of honey in a plastic bag.

What is this?

I was making, you know, some bread with my son, and he finished off the honey because this recipe required honey.

And there was no more honey that I could visualize in this container of honey and she saw the drops that were in the bottom of the honey let the let the record show that when you said there was no more honey I could visualize Hallie sighed deeply clearly visualizing honey in that moment yeah right so then she took some vinegar and poured it into the honey what's funny is there was a Ziploc bag which she had cleaned in my house

And I didn't even realize that it had been drying somewhere in the house.

And she rescued it and put the rescued honey container with the rescued honey droplets in there.

And she said, look at this.

I'm going to make some wonderful honey dressing out of it and take it home.

I would have made it there, but it didn't fit with the meal concept we had.

So I was like, I'll just take it home.

My favorite part of this story is Ramsey discovering that you are clandestinely washing and drying Ziplocs in his house in a secret location.

Actually, you know what?

This is relevant because it wasn't secret.

I put the bag on his drying rack.

It's just that he didn't notice it because he doesn't notice like little ways that

he's destroying the earth.

Yes.

And that actually, I mean, sure, we'll get to it, but it feels like it's bigger than just like a specific compromise about how many jars I get or how much recycling he has to participate in.

He's not noticing how a drop of honey can be rescued with some vinegar and a reused plastic bag to become a delicious salad dressing.

It was like a teaspoon of honey.

The thing that this illustrates to me, and a teaspoon is a lot, I hear you, Hallie.

This and the previous and some of the other discussions you had, this is not just a matter, Hallie, of you reusing things that

you bring into your home or you know that you purchase for your home or that are in your food and waste stream but you're actually constantly on the lookout

for stuff you can rescue from restaurants and from your boyfriend's house and from garbage anywhere ramsey how does hallie's constant vigilance for stuff to take home and wash out

affect the nature of your relationship

well that's a good point because so far she does it so seamlessly and and it's so part of her nature that honestly these little things don't take all that much time and so it hasn't affected the quality of our relationship especially as she may do things clandestinely at home when I'm not there.

I'm fearful that you know over time maybe these things will

creep up and become an issue.

How long have you known each other?

Do we have to tell?

Yes.

Six months.

You've known each other six months?

Yeah.

Wow.

When are you thinking you might get married?

We haven't determined that yet.

Somewhere between two and three weeks from now?

Well, it depends if we can find a used marriage license in the garbage somewhere that we can write out the names.

I would do that.

You know what?

You seem to love each other very much.

Aside from

this small issue of you going around taking pictures of things in her apartment that you don't like, Ramsey.

Including drawers full of rescued Ziploc bags, drawers full of rescued napkins, and so forth.

There's one picture I just want to

just focus on this one before we move on.

This photo has a single caption, Ramsey, it's from you.

Shower water reclamation system.

Wow.

When I went into her bathroom the first time, there was this huge pot.

This is a pot you can cook pasta in for the family of 50 coming in for, you know, dinner.

It's a lobster pot.

You could put 10 lobsters in there, it looks like to me.

Yeah, it came with the steamer in it.

I found it on the ground outside.

Oh,

I know more about Hallie than you do.

Right.

Well, it's only been six months.

I get to learn something every day still.

Yeah, I would say so.

There's nothing being reused in this relationship right now.

It's all virgin plastic between the two of you.

So I thought because her cupboards were full of jars and plastic yogurt containers that maybe she just didn't have room for this pot.

I'm like, oh, that's kind of a good place to store a pot.

But no, this is where she collects the cold water when she turns the shower on initially and saves the cold water.

And then I believe she uses it for her toilet or something like that.

Well, I use it in a couple of different ways, but

I'd like to hear all of the ways.

How do thee use your shower water?

Let thee count the ways.

And I'd like you to work it into your vows.

I do use it in the back of the, like in the toilet tank.

So it is one flush, basically.

And that is nothing.

I know it's nothing in the scheme of things, but it's just hard to watch it go down the drain.

The toilet tank holds a certain amount of water.

Right.

And when you flush the toilet,

it fills up automatically unless you have hacked the system.

No, because I pour the water in as it's flushing.

And so once it reaches a line, it stops running.

Do you know what I mean?

So the water does come out, but then rather than refill it by the

plumbing, it refills it by my pouring it in.

So that's how I...

So

you won't go to the bathroom until you have a full flush's worth in the flush pot?

No.

It only accounts for one flush in a day.

Look, maybe you're letting some of this mellow for a while before you flush it.

But then when the time comes to flush, you've got to grab your shower pot,

take off the lid of the tank,

flush,

and then simultaneously fill up the tank

so that the tank will not automatically refill.

Yeah, it's really easy.

Yeah.

It's really easy.

Wow.

Sounds.

Well, I mean, to give her credit,

she, you know, only flushes usually once a day.

That is not true.

If I were you, Hallie, I would stand by that.

That's an accomplishment.

Well, I think about what is pleasant for people that are sharing space with me.

So if I'm by myself, I might have different standards than when I have somebody over.

I understand.

Regardless of my ruling, I do think that...

Hallie, you could probably, if you get in there and look at the mechanism, you can disable the automatic refilling on that, on that tank.

So you don't have to, you understand what I'm saying?

So you don't have to synchronize it each time.

You just fill it up when it's empty.

You know what I mean?

You don't have to race the, that's all.

That's all I'm saying.

What pleasure do you gain if indeed it is pleasure?

And what intrinsic pleasure?

I mean, you acknowledge that while all of these are admirable and virtuous efforts, in the the scheme of things, your action as an individual only has so much impact on the globe as a whole, right?

No impact.

Okay, good.

Fair enough.

We'll say no impact.

But there is impact upon you, right?

On your sense of well-being and happiness.

It's not that I feel pleasure in things like that.

It's more that I feel an absence of guilt.

So I recognize that it gets,

I take it too far, and I recognize that in some ways, although it doesn't, it feels easy for me, but I would never impose it on someone else.

But the reason I do it, even though I guess I do believe it makes no difference to what's going to happen to the world, is that it's my value.

I think that living one's values should be intrinsic in and of itself, regardless of the outcome.

I'm not sure you're taking this too far.

I mean, we're about to review two of the scariest photos I've ever seen in my life, but hang on.

I am struck by the fact that you say, when I do it, I don't feel guilty.

In combination with your saying, I know that it's more than I could impose upon someone else, presumably Ramsey.

And my question to you is,

do you have feelings of intrusive guilt

that these practices help assuage?

And are you concerned that when you cohabitate with Ramsey, if you make adjustments

to his

more wasteful lifestyle and set rules that are not quite as

comprehensive as yours, that you are going to feel intrusive guilt throughout the day?

I don't feel that level of guilt or distress anymore.

But when I was in grad school, I had a blog called EcoPathology,

which was a word that I invented, as far as I know, to describe like a neurotic level of pathology regarding caring too much about the waste and trying to reduce one's footprint.

I mean, I had a nightmare in grad school where somebody was reading a chapter of my dissertation and criticizing me about it.

But what I remembered when I woke up is that he had done it on single-sided paper.

Like the paper wasn't printed on both sides, and I was offended that he had wasted paper, not about the content of the dream.

And what were you in grad school for, and what is your profession now?

I was getting a PhD in comparative human development, but now what I am is a psychologist.

So look,

I know you're a psychologist, but I'm a fake internet judge.

I don't know if you've ever heard of this term called obsessive-compulsive disorder.

I've heard of it, yeah.

Have you heard of it?

Yeah, I've heard of it.

Do you understand why I'm raising it?

Of course, of course, yeah.

Ecopathology was a kind of, I would say, subclinical OCD.

I actually think that the problem is that not enough people have ecopathology.

And the tagline for my blog was, the only cure is contagion.

Because as Ramsey said, if everyone lived this way, we'd be okay.

Well, we probably wouldn't be because of that.

You know,

you're transitioning in my admiration upwards from a very nice, conscientious person to maybe one of the best new Batman villains of all time.

The only cure is contagion is some some real supervillain stuff.

Thank you.

But, you know, look, I don't want to tell you your literal specialty, but there have been people in my life who have had various levels of OCD.

So I have a little bit of familiarity with it.

When I've written in the New York Times magazine,

my little column next there called Judge John Hodgman, I've stated once or twice that the difference between a collection and a hoard is a display case.

Like, if you have,

or, you know, not necessarily a case, but that it's out in the open and you're displaying it and it's something that others can take pleasure in, that is in order, that has a beginning, middle, and end to it, and is not something that you're hiding from the world to serve some deeper need.

You know what I mean?

Now, I don't know that there is any way to store

dozens and dozens of yogurt containers without it looking a little sketchy, no matter whether it is a collection or a hoard.

Do you know what I mean?

So, the only thing that's left to me is to ask you, a professional psychologist, you know,

is your ecopathology,

in your opinion, an expression of a healthy, positive,

sort of self-nourishing

interest?

Or is it ritual that you are doing to quiet the terrible dream of the wasted painting?

Sometimes it feels good and sometimes I feel compelled.

But I don't think that I would be wracked with guilt.

I mean I do a lot of damaging things just by existing in this country and having a certain level of economic privilege.

Like we're gonna get on a plane three times like in the next year at least.

That's not good.

Like that wipes out any

containers I might save.

And I still do it because it's part of what makes life worth worth living.

Now, but when you're on that plane, are you going to be able to relax?

Are you going to walk up and down the aisles collecting all the barf bags for later use?

I would be able to relax.

I believe you.

Yeah.

And I think I'd be okay with a certain reduction in energy that I put into rescuing things.

But also a lot of it, like Ramsey said, I really do without thinking about, and it doesn't bother me at all.

It's just part of your routine at this point.

I notice it more when other people don't do things that seem easy than when I'm doing it, if that makes sense.

Ramsey, you know, you initially stated as your reason for bringing the case to this court being that you're not sure you could live up to your beloved.

That quickly changed to, I don't like the way she uses paper towels, which feels like a much truer thing.

Does

Hallie's behavior and hobby and habit and ritual concern you in some way?

Is that part of the reason that we're talking today?

I don't see it as a real OCD or a pathology.

I think that she truly has a value of being thoughtful and careful about waste and her planet.

It's the degree, the energy required and the gain obtained to me

isn't warranting in my value system.

Again, I could say that if everybody did it, we would be all better off.

But it's just something that I can't attain.

Some part of our dispute is getting missed.

Ramsey wants there to be some systemic governmental policy that makes real change.

And of course, I would want that too.

But we don't have that.

So in the absence of that, I still think there's a place for individuals to care, not necessarily because, like, if it doesn't make a difference, it has to make a difference to be worth it, but because it shows the value of caring.

And Ramsey participates in other systems that are problematic and can only be sort of at this point grappled with at an individual level.

And he participates as an individual rather than wait for there to be broad systemic change.

He votes, even though the process is problematic, as we may all be feeling,

but he votes as an individual.

And so why not extend what he's already doing in other areas to do a little more as an individual in an absence of a policy that would lead to more change?

I would agree with that.

All right.

But how do you explain this, Hallie?

Ramsey sent in two of the most terrifying photos I've ever seen.

One is it's a jar of a white powdered substance that Ramsey thinks might be sugar.

The jar itself is of some

off-brand tahini

that I've never seen in my life.

It does not look like anything I've ever seen in any of the grocery stores.

And I go to grocery stores a lot, of all kinds, stripes, sizes, aisles straight, aisles crooked, whatever they are.

This is Asmar's Tahina.

And what's more frightening to me is that this, not only does this jar of strange-branded tahina full of reclaimed white powder

look intrinsically mysterious, but it looks like it has been buried beneath the earth for 35 years.

So what is the powder?

And what is How old is this jar?

It probably looks old because it has been washed washed a bunch of times.

I might have used it for different things over the years, but it's sugar, as he knows very well, because he goes into it every morning with his tea.

And then there's another jar, which also looks scary.

This jar has been stripped of its label.

Only a bare amount is left.

It's full of a black, crumbly substance that looks like grave dirt.

And it does feel like this was taken out of the fruit cellar of the cabin in the evil evil dead.

What is this?

That's Earl Gray tea, and you can tell if you smell it.

But he does, he has a good point, and I would be more mindful of labeling jars that I know what they are, but I shouldn't assume.

I mean, he didn't even get to my spice cabinet, but nothing in there matches the label.

I would label jars for him.

It's Earl Gray.

You can smell it, but yeah, I would label jars for him.

I like to imagine, Hallie, that you're running like a children's science museum

and like you just like turn out all the lights and have people smell their way to the exits.

Our place is scratch and sniff.

Ramsey, before I go to my verdict, there are a number of vectors by which one could approach a critique of Hallie's habits and practices.

Particularly if you were going to start living with this person.

Now, one of them might be, I don't know that I can live up to her ideals, and you've offered that one.

Another one is, some of the stuff she does seems a little over the top with the paper towels and the Ziplocs and so forth.

You've offered that one.

You do not seem concerned about her mental hygiene.

And, you know, I'll leave that to you, Hallie.

You're the psychologist.

Heal thyself, diagnose thyself.

But, you know, I just felt the need to bring it up to let you both respond to that.

to make sure that that was in part of the discussion.

And then fourth of all, there's there's just an aesthetic issue.

Like these jars are scary and I don't want them in my house.

You've really moved between all of these vectors, Ramsey, and I'm not sure which one is truly the crux.

So I think it might become clear when I ask you very specifically, Ramsey, if I were to rule in your favor, very specifically, what would you like me to order happen?

in the home that you will eventually share.

Well, you know, firstly,

as you alluded to, I don't want anything to look junky.

And if there is

reclaimed materials, it could be hidden away a little bit.

Second, I don't want it to impact our quality of life and our ability to, oh, we need a pot and pan set, but we can't fit it into our place because we have a bunch of containers that we have to put instead.

So I don't want to inhibit our quality of life and our ability to have a normal functioning household by, you know, clutter.

And that's fair because you never know when a lobster pot is going to come in off the street.

That's right.

And, you know, and again, I understand,

okay, I can save a little bit of energy here, but in my mindset, I look at the energy we expend on a yearly basis and driving cars and whatever it is,

you know, some sort of balance.

I wouldn't feel proud of myself to save a napkin when I'm going to go fly in a plane the next day.

That doesn't make sense to me.

So I think to not inhibit our quality of life for a value which

may not make a difference.

Okay.

You're both employed.

What is your profession, Ramsey?

I'm a surgeon.

You're a surgeon, okay.

It sounds as though you might be able to buy or rent in Philadelphia a home of some size or an apartment of some size.

Sure.

One that might be able to accommodate the anticipated quantities of yogurt containers and a Ziploc drying rack.

Or maybe one with a bunker.

I have two questions for you, Hallie.

Obviously, one, how would you have me order if I were to rule in your favor?

But also, when you do decide to cohabitate and you move in together into this new place, I presume you're going to want to bring all of your existing collected

jars of rainwater and grave dirt and

empty canisters and bags with you, right?

It's part of your dowry.

I'm willing to compromise on that.

When I moved into the place I live now, I got rid of like 30 jars and I still have so many jars.

And I recently got rid of a whole like collection of plastic utensils.

So I'm willing to compromise.

I do not need to bring everything.

I think that I want Ramsey to live in the system we we have, not the system he wishes we had.

So whatever that means to him, it does not have to look like how it means to me.

But I want at least a cabinet for my jars, and I want a cabinet for my containers, and I won't go beyond the cabinet.

And he's right.

My place does not look hoardy.

Everything is behind cabinets and it doesn't like spill out into common spaces.

It looks nice.

That's not a problem keeping it that way.

And I'd want us to recycle even if, as he believes, maybe correctly, it's all a scam.

Gotcha.

All right.

Is that true that you believe recycling is a scam, Ramsey?

I do, but I would admit that it's possible.

That's what I want to believe to save myself the energy from recycling.

Okay, fair enough.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I shall dive into the dumpster that is my chambers, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Ramsey, how are you feeling about your chances?

Oh, I feel pretty good.

I'm very happy with the evidence that I submitted.

Hallie, how are you feeling about your chances?

I mean, I would never expect Ramsey to live like me, so I wasn't even asking for that.

I would certainly know I would lose if I was.

But, oh, who knows?

He does a good job of giving like hybrid verdicts where he somehow manages to make both people happy.

We'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

An unconditional moral obligation which is binding in all circumstances and is not dependent on a person's inclination or purpose.

That's a categorical imperative.

Immanuel Kant,

1985.

No, 1785, groundwork of the metaphysics of morals.

I was just looking that up right now, so obviously I stumbled over the words a little bit, but you get the point.

It is what Hallie is pointing towards.

Acting your life

as much as possible in a sense of moral purpose that you would like to see reflected throughout all of the known universe.

Obviously, we're not going to fix this planet,

as Elizabeth Warren has pointed out,

by not not using plastic straws.

That is a very, very small gesture towards what we hope might be a universal gesture to avoid using plastics and non-renewable disposables as a whole, as a society, as an earth.

And that's going to rely as much, if not much, much more,

upon restructuring the industries that cause this massive waste and through governmental regulation and policy, as well as individual responsibility and sustainability.

And obviously I agree with Hallie on that point.

I've heard a lot of guys

in my life, and a funny thing, they happen to all be guys, say,

I don't recycle these cans and bottles because recycling is a scam.

They take it all to the same garbage place.

And I think that that's true in certain communities.

And yet, I don't know for sure.

So I'm going to act in a Kantian way and act in the way

that is consistent with the way I hope the universe will act.

A,

that we are not going to deceive our people and say that it's being recycled when it's just being thrown in the same landfill.

B, to advocate for that, and C, to you know,

separate out the bottles and the cans and the paper and stuff.

Hallie, I appreciate

your Kantian

jam in this whole discussion.

I do not appreciate your dancing around the fact that this is fun for you.

It's fun to have a purpose that makes you feel good, to come up with systems that reduce waste.

You came up with the lobster pot shower water reflush system.

That's ingenuity.

Which I think would only be made more fun by getting into that toilet tank and hacking it so that it doesn't refill automatically.

Then you control it.

I'm glad of your hobby.

There is a correction that I would make, Hallie.

You paint wonderful

word pictures as you describe your hobby, practice, and ritual.

You make it sound great.

You also paint pretty good smell pictures.

When you told me, you could just unscrew that weird-looking jar of black, crumbly grave earth, and you would know

that's Earl Gray tea.

But you can't unpaint the scary pictures that I saw, the picture pictures, not word pictures, not smell pictures.

Scary, scary-looking.

I think there is a limit to how aesthetically pleasing you can make a 10-tall stack of yogurt containers look.

They have to be behind closed doors.

There's no reason that you cannot, just as you might reclaim a jelly jar and make it into a wonderful and frankly shatter-resistant, you know, Roxglass for drinking ice water or your favorite beverage.

There's no reason you can't take an extra moment to make your virtue also aesthetically pleasing.

That means doing a little work and scraping off the rest of that label, maybe putting on another label, or just making it look less scary.

Okay, Hallie?

Sure, yeah.

Now,

you two are in a very young relationship.

I was frankly shocked to hear that you had gotten engaged after knowing each other six months, but that's none of my business.

That's not what brings you here.

If it is your intent to get married and then to live together,

I might counsel maybe a slightly longer engagement period than your dating period.

So you can hash all this stuff out a little bit more.

But when, if and when, and I'm banking on when, you commit to buying a place together, I

would say that, how you've already demonstrated a spirit of compromise.

You say you cannot force Ramsey to live his life the way you do,

nor can Ramsey force you to live your life the way he does by ignoring recycling.

You have to kind of force each other to live about halfway the way the other one does.

I cannot rule against Hallie's practices and hobby.

It is obviously something she gives thought to, and whether she wants to admit it or not, takes pleasure from.

It's a good moral impulse to reduce waste.

I cannot force Ramsey to realign his thinking to a more Kantian universalist pose.

I think you've given him food for thought, Hallie.

And as your relationship grows and deepens and matures, say maybe after another nine days from now,

when you've really been together for a long time,

Ramsey might start thinking that way, naturally.

So ultimately, how do I rule?

Well, the only thing I can really rule is on actual

behavior.

And therefore, I am forced to rule in Ramsey's favor.

And I'm not going to rule on a necessary reduction of the amount of time, energy, and attention you spend to this,

but rather a consideration that you'll now be sharing your passion and all your bags and containers and plastic forks with another human being.

Therefore, I think it is important that you start your new life together cohabitating, first of all, with a a clean slate.

I think it's time to get rid of that terrifying tahini jar.

I mean, well, keep the tahini jar because it's in use right now for sugar.

But the empty stuff has to be,

it has done its work so far in your life.

Some of it goes back a long time.

It is time to repurpose that out of your life.

When you enter the home, I would order you to start fresh because you are starting fresh together.

You're going to have enough of your own truly psychic garbage that you will both be bringing to this relationship.

Trying to minimize the physical garbage that you're bringing into it.

That said, I order you to continue with your project with consideration that it be aesthetically unscary.

Lobster pot in the shower, it's hard.

It's hard to make that not unscary, but I'll allow it if you hack that toilet and perfect the system.

uh i hope and and think you should if it's possible find a place in philadelphia that has like a pantry i mean i know space is at a premium in the city but it might have a pantry or a kind of a larger closet that can just like be

your hobby area like where you can have a dedicated drying rack for Ziploc bags, dedicated storage for all that stuff.

That should be something that you may want to look at incorporating into your house hunt, depending on what you're looking for.

Somewhere you can really just go and wash your containers out.

I am delighted that you take pleasure from reducing waste.

It makes me think and be more mindful and will make Ramsey think and be more mindful of his waste habits.

And while I technically find in his favor, I wish you the very best of luck and no, I will not marry you.

I don't do that for people.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Hallie, was that the baby splitting that you hoped it would be?

I'm still kind of reeling from all of my containers having to be thrown away.

And I just need to clarify because it sounded at first like he was saying, I have to throw them away now.

But then I think he was saying only when you bring them, don't bring them into a new place.

Don't bring them into the new place.

Yeah, I'm reeling from it.

I'm like feeling something.

The rest of it was fine.

I have to like process the containers thing.

If you're feeling anxiety, I encourage you to explore that

before you move in with another person.

Yeah, no, it's no problem when we move in together.

And I actually feel like in some ways, I didn't lose the case because the judge came in talking about Kant and it fits with the underlying thing that I care more about, which is living one's values.

Ramsey, how do you feel about marrying someone whose values you're about to violate?

I don't want you to feel beat up upon by the evidence that I had submitted

because, as you said, it's kind of about the values, not about your really dirty containers, which I can't stand.

And I'd be really upset if they were in my house.

But we're getting somewhere.

Why did you lead with that?

But yeah, I'm not nervous anything about our engagement and about about you.

The containers are clean.

However, it's actually useful to hear that they look scary because I had no idea.

That's part of the joy of being married to another person.

They literally call you on your garbage.

Well, Hallie Ramsey, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

We've got Swift Justice coming up in just a second.

But first, our thanks to Derek Warnken for naming this week's episode.

If you want to name a future episode, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

You can hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, and chat about this week's episode and every Judge John Hodgman episode on Reddit at maximumfun.reddit.com.

You can see the evidence, including the cat who lives under the sink, at JudgeJohn Hodgman on Instagram.

Follow us there.

You can also find it on this episode page at maximumfun.org.

week's episode recorded by Thomas Plummer at Forge Recording in Orland, Pennsylvania.

Our editor is Jesus Ambrosio.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment, here is something from Kat.

Are you ready, John?

I am ready.

Is it a terrible, terrible idea for my boyfriend to use dish soap as body wash?

Just a point of clarification, did Kat say a terrible idea or a terrible, terrible idea?

Kat said two terribles and then said, he claims all soap is the same.

I would say that's three terribles.

And I know that because I know that dish soap is very astringent.

It is harsh.

I know that because I used to clean my eyeglasses with Dawn and it stripped off the non-reflective coating on the glasses that I needed for my on-camera work, and I had to buy a whole new ones.

It took off an invisible layer of coating.

It's gonna hurt your skin, dude.

Don't do it.

Okay, that's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Remember, no case is too small.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

MaximumFund.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist-owned, audience-supported.