There is No Diner Jail

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

We're in chambers this week, clearing the docket.

With me, the only judge that matters until you die, Judge John Hodgman.

And possibly after you die, depending on your beliefs.

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

Meow, meow, meow, meow.

I haven't stopped partying, Jesse.

Even though it's New Year's Day, I'm still singing Auld Lang Syne and Meow Meow talk.

Meow, meow.

Please, Jesse Thorne, what are your New Year's resolutions?

Do you have any?

Oh, wow.

You know, I am not a big New Year's resolver.

I tend to, I live an unexamined life, John.

Oh, no.

My life is just a maelstrom that I'm flopping through like the beginning of the Wizard of Oz.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

My plan is just not to be a pair of stocking-clad feet sticking out from underneath a house.

And also not to have your ruby slippers stolen from you.

Oh,

people are trying out here trying to steal my slips.

Well, as for my New Year's resolutions, Jesse, of course, I'm trying to pour less poisonous Twitter into my eyes at 3 o'clock in the morning.

You know, just try to take care of my body, be more mindful, and naturally continue to try to learn how to make and refine aluminum oxynitride.

What's that, John?

Oh, sorry, I figured you would know.

As you know, November 1st of this year, 2020, that is just starting today, November 1st is the 10th anniversary of the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Oh, wow.

And, of course, the two traditional 10th anniversary gifts are tin

and less traditional, more modern, aluminum.

So I'm trying to learn how to make aluminum oxynitride.

Well, you know, Jesse, what aluminum oxynitride's main property is, don't you?

Transparency?

Yes, it's transparent.

It's a real-life thing that I found out about on Wikipedia today.

Dave, transparent aluminum from Star Trek 4 is a real thing?

It's a real thing.

They figured out how to do it.

It goes by the commercial name of Elon, and they use it to make bulletproof glass for the windows of the limousines of oligarchs, I suppose.

But of course, what I'm doing is I'm going to get enough of this stuff and make a whale tank for my friend Jesse for a 10th anniversary present.

It's easy enough to make.

You just pick up that computer mouse and say, hello, computer.

Please make aluminum oxynitride.

I think I'm saying that right anyway.

John, we have a lot of judgment to dispense here on the program.

Why don't we get into it?

Here's something from Joe.

He asks, after shoveling the latest round of snow, I remarked to my friend Kevin that there's absolutely nothing I enjoy about winter, not one thing.

He countered by asking, well, what about Christmas?

I rejected this argument because Christmas is not necessarily a winter holiday.

Can you have Christmas without winter?

Sure.

The fact that it occurs during the North American winter is merely a coincidence.

Is Christmas a winter holiday?

I say no.

He says yes.

Oh,

you're a mean one, Mr.

Joe.

You do not like winter and you refuse to acknowledge that Christmas is a winter holiday.

Interesting.

Jesse Thorne, what do you think?

Well, first of all, as a native Californian and a resident of the great state of california and specifically the coastal lowlands of california i love winter because it's a break from the relentless discomfort of summer especially here in southern california there is nothing i dislike more than a hot summer's day

you know i think if i lived in a less temperate climate i would be a stereotypical autumn man yeah i would probably be sipping uh hot apple cider rather than uh from a mug of coffee since i don't drink coffee but uh besides that, the layering and so on and so forth are what I really look forward to all year long.

You love a layer.

I love a layer.

So that's my first thing.

I just want to get that out of the way.

In case Dave Shumka from Stop Podcasting Yourself hears this, or Graham Clark and they worry that I'm no longer on team autumn winter, that I've turned to a Summerman.

You must have at least one Cowichan sweater, right?

The traditional zip-up sweater of

Vancouver and British Columbia in general.

Yeah, I have multiple Cowichan sweaters that are actually made by Cowichan people,

which is how you should refer to Cowichan sweaters.

If they're not made by Cowichin's, they should be called Cowichan-style sweaters.

That said,

I acknowledge from my own perspective that Christmas can take place during the summer season.

There are plenty of folks in the southern hemisphere who celebrate...

Christmas.

Certainly many, many people in Australia celebrate Christmas.

There are a fair number of people in South America who celebrate Christmas.

I bet there are folks in the research station in Antarctica celebrating Christmas right this very moment, or at least a week or so ago when it was Christmas.

That said, Christmas has a specific role in the calendar.

It is

substantially, I think, a European holiday in its current conception and has its roots in the northern hemisphere, in the Middle East.

Yes.

And it is a hybrid of Christian celebrations and various pre-Christian celebrations, all of which are centered on

a time of year when, A, there is some time to reevaluate, think about family, think about the community, give and so on and so forth.

And B, it is very important to do so so that you don't lose hope before the spring comes.

It is in its function a holiday for the depths of winter.

And I think that's why it's a celebration of the birth of Christ, even though there isn't any particular evidence that suggests that Christ was born, you know, on December 25th or whatever.

It really is something that was fixed at that time of year for a specific reason.

Yeah.

You know, this is what I'm going to say to you, Joe.

Your heart is full of unwashed socks.

Your soul is full of gunk.

The three words that best describe you are as follows, and I quote, stink, stank, stunk.

And here's why.

As my bailiff so aptly points out, it is true that if you celebrate Christmas in the southern hemisphere in Buenos Aires or Australia, it will not be very wintry, nor would it be particularly snowy if you were celebrating Christmas in Bethlehem, the birthplace of historical Jesus.

As of this recording, the current weather.com prediction for Christmas time in Bethlehem, sunny with a high of 60.

But that is not the point.

The association of December 25th with the birth of historical Jesus is

a date of convenience.

And in fact, it was not until the third century that the birthday of Jesus was associated with December 25th.

And that was because that date corresponds with the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere.

And it's associated with partying and gift-giving festivals, of which there were many,

including Saturnalia and the Feast of Solon Victus in Brumalia in ancient Rome.

Certainly, the pagan holiday known as Yule in the Germanic world was associated with the winter solstice.

And no coincidence, because solstice is midwinter.

It is the longest night of the year in the northern hemisphere.

Whether there is snow on the ground or not, all of these rituals and festivals and feasts mark the figurative death and then rebirth of the sun.

What we in North America and the Anglo-Diaspora call Christmas is a fusion of early Christian Roman feast traditions as they fused with pagan Yule log and Christmas tree worship via Germany and Scandinavia.

And the Christmas tree tradition then came to England via Prince Albert, who is Queen Victoria's German husband.

Christmas had been scorned by the Puritans in this country.

You were not supposed to celebrate Christmas in any way.

But eventually, the English tradition of celebrating Christmas as a Christmas tree was adopted here in the Victorian era as images of Victoria and her weird German consort and their druid tree were circulated and emulated among middle and upper class Americans.

The point is,

whether you're celebrating the birth of the sun S-O-N or the Sun S-U-N,

I hate a pun, but there it is.

The solstice holidays represent, as you so elegantly put it, Jesse, a time of reflection and a kindling of light against the darkness.

It is associated historically with winter because it is a moment of faith in the longest night of the year, a faith that we will come out of this cold and dispiriting time alive and together and eventually step into new warm, good days to come.

And I certainly hope that that is what happens with us in this society.

So, there we go.

So, you're wrong, Joe.

You nauseate me, Mr.

Joe, with a nauseous supernause.

You're a crooked jerky jockey, and you drive a crooked hoss.

Mr.

Joe, you're a three-decker sauerkraut, a toadstool sandwich with arsenic sauce.

But I love you.

Every year at Christmas, John.

Yes.

I celebrate the birth of son, S-U-N-N, space, capital O, close parentheses, close parentheses, close parentheses, the legendary drone, black metal, dark ambient, and noise rock band.

Why do you know these things?

Why else?

I read it in the New Yorker, John.

Well, there you go.

Not to be too on brand, John, but yes, I read about my favorite metal band in the New Yorker.

Here's something from Luke.

I work at a small tech company with about 10 other employees, and we use Slack for our internal communication.

My boss sometimes will take an informal poll like, who's interested in going to lunch?

Show of hands, and uses the brown skin tone hand emoji.

My issue is this.

If I'm late to respond, there will often be six or seven responses, all using the brown skin tone hand emoji, indicated by a single hand with the the number six next to it.

Should I, as one of only two white guys in the office, just click the brown hand to indicate my interest, or should I add a solitary white hand to the mix?

Does the answer change if the other white guy in the office has already clicked the brown hand?

Both responses make me feel pretty weird.

Well, first of all, good for you for working in such a diverse workplace.

That's cool.

And now you know, I suppose, what I've only conjectured what it must feel like to be among a minority of people who look like me in any given workplace.

It's not something I've had much experience with.

I got invited to be part of a Slack for an upcoming Jonathan Colton cruise.

And I don't understand how it works.

And I don't understand why it's better than anything else like email or whatever.

Is that something that you have any experience with, Jesse?

My understanding is that it's better than everything else because my friend Matt Howie works there.

Well, sure.

Everyone in my office uses Slack.

They love it.

And for that reason, I do not participate because I don't want to talk to or interface with others.

I don't mind buzz marketing a place where Matt Howie works.

And I know that I should know this.

So if you were to explain Slack to me and to some of the listeners who may not know what it is, what is it?

Aaron Powell, it's a workplace communication system that incorporates elements of,

broadly speaking, social media, a message board, email, and text messages.

It's sort of an amalgam of all of those things driven primarily through animated GIFs.

That's my understanding.

Okay.

It brings all of those things together in some way.

Yeah, exactly.

If you send an email to the group, everyone sees it also as a message or whatever.

I don't know.

I think this question could apply just as well to communications on some social media platforms or certainly via a group text message.

And your choice can have consequences, culturally speaking.

Such as my wife's aunt, who once sent me a brown thumbs up, and she's a white woman, and I was very confused.

Yeah, it would seem weird to me.

I think you should just use your own skin tone.

If people are doing it, you should use your own.

Is there an element to this that I'm missing, Jesse, that I need to be aware of?

Do I have a blind spot here?

I think the one thing that's missing from that equation, and it's something that makes me feel uncomfortable in text messages, which I use regularly, and sounds like it might might be even more of a problem in Slack, is that you have to make an affirmative choice to choose the color of the hand.

And this is also true for various kinds of emojis of, you know, faces and families and so on and so forth.

And I think for many people of color, that is making that affirmative choice is an assertion of identity and they're comfort with their identity and is great for that reason.

But I think that when you make that affirmative choice and you're a white person, for me, I have always felt a little bit like I was starting a white club at my high school.

Sure, you know, no, I understand.

Yeah.

I'm not saying that they're comparable.

I'm saying

I felt a little bit like that.

Now, the flip side of that, of course, is that these things often default to a cartoon yellow skin tone, which is in itself, I think, a representation of whiteness, which is why they added the other skin colors.

You know, there is, of course, you can say that is an abstract cartoon skin tone, but it's not true.

I mean, otherwise, Dr.

Hibbard from The Simpsons would also be yellow.

Yeah, exactly.

But that said, for me personally, I generally stick with the default color unless there is a particular reason to do so.

With the understanding that no matter what color I choose, it has, you know, it has racial subtext.

But for me, the one I am most comfortable with, I tend to go with the default, which is usually yellow.

It's remarkably good, embracing, and thought-provoking to be in an office situation where a Caucasian hand is not the default hand.

I think that's really interesting.

I think it is hard to strike the balance between accurate self-representation and the worries of having, you know, the slightly sour undertones of what you suggest of sort of saying like white club

versus the appropriation of the default and presenting your hand as a brown hand.

I mean, I think since we're talking about six or seven responses total, it seems like it's a fairly small office and it might be worthwhile having a conversation with your coworkers saying, do you guys mind if I get on this default brown hand or does that feel weird to you?

You know, and hear what they have to say.

One of the things that has struck me at the end of last year and the beginning of this one is how many petitions to the court around social conventions conventions are seeking advice from a distant podcast to set down a rule for how to interact with people when the solution is just there in front of them to interact with them and to ask them their opinion.

So since this is an office of six or seven people, it would seem anyway,

you got a whole Slack channel to talk to each other.

It might be worthwhile to say in that Slack channel or maybe face to face with people.

Here's something that I'm thinking about.

Am I overthinking this or not?

Since the default here, happily is that most of the hands that come up in the Slack channel saying, yeah, I'll be there for lunch are brown hands.

Is it okay for me to get in on that?

Or would you rather that I represent myself in a different way and hear what people have to say?

So Jesse here checking in from the home office because as we were recording this, I didn't know if we would have time to fit this in, but we do.

My buddy Andrew T is the host of a great podcast called Yo, Is This Racist?

with the also great Tawny Newsome.

And this is exactly the kind of question that they answer on their podcast.

So I thought it'd be fun to send it over to him and see what he had to say about it.

So here is Andrew T.

Okay, so as to the question about

whether specifically on Slack

you should use the brown skin tone and hand emoji as a white dude.

Like, admittedly, this is sort of a small place.

This isn't quite the same as doing it in, I don't know, Twitter or public or something but

I feel like the

general answer to this is that it's icky to if you're a white dude to use the brown skin tone emoji it kind of at best comes off as too familiar and at worst is some sort of kind of like a

you know brown facey brown handy kind of jam.

So, but it's specifically in this situation where you're one of two white dudes in the office.

I assume this meant one of two white people in the office.

And so if the other person's doing it, you definitely should not be on board.

Be the good one.

If you have the option between being the kind of vaguely icky white guy or the good one, be the good one.

Go with white or

go with the generic yellow, which has its own problems in sort of implying that, you know, Simpson's yellow is

normal and the baseline for what a protagonist is.

But I'm guessing that's a story for another day.

Let's take a quick break.

More items on the docket coming up in just a minute on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in.

My new super soft hoodie from Quince that I got at the beginning of the summer is indeed super soft.

People cannot stop touching me and going, that is a soft sweatshirt.

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John, you know what I got from Quince?

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Oh.

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You know what I mean?

It's a stink-rejecting technology, John.

It says, get thee behind me, stink.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're clearing the docket.

Here is something from Becca.

I've always been a bit of an anxious person, and I have trichotillomania, which causes me to pluck out my eyelashes.

I've noticed that I often do it without really thinking toward the end of the day.

It's an outlet for whatever stress or anxiety I experience in any given day.

It's one of the only things I can control.

To spare my lashes, my partner Daniel, with whom I've been living for three years, offers me six plucks a day from his own bounty of eyelashes.

Wow, Daniel.

Wow, very generous.

Okay.

This is actually one of the, this is like a Jurassic Park situation.

That's what I think.

I think this is the whole thing's a cover for some kind of cloning.

I don't know if you can make a man-dinosaur hybrid, but that's what I believe to be happening.

I appreciate the six plucks, but I want free reign.

Whoa.

Who's right?

Should Daniel offer offer me endless plucks, stick to his six-per-day policy, or make me leave his eyelashes alone altogether?

Huh.

Trichotillomania.

I have to look that up on Wikipedia.

Trichotillomania.

What's the one called where you're afraid of holes?

Because my wife has that one.

I think that's tripophobia.

The holes one is tripophobia.

Tripophobia.

It's an aversion to the sight of irregular patterns or clusters of of small holes or bumps, says Wikipedia.

It is not officially recognized as a mental disorder, but may be diagnosed as a specific phobia.

And this is basically like sunflower pods.

And let's face it, those are things with a lot of little holes in it.

That's pretty weird.

Or those cameras on the new iPhones where there's a bunch of cameras next to each other, those are deeply upsetting to people with tripophobia, which I can absolutely confirm is a real thing because my wife has been telling me about her since we were 17 years old.

and I have mostly laughed in her face about it although I'm generally very supportive of her because it's not a huge problem in her life but it is absolutely real it is totally a real thing oh yeah that's creepy stuff for sure trichotillomania also called hair pulling disorderism

this is termed I'm quoting from the Mayo Clinic webpage here a mental disorder that involves recurrent irresistible urges to pull out hair from your scalp eyebrows or other areas of your body despite trying to stop This is an interesting thing because it's unclear from Becca's letter whether she has been diagnosed by a mental health professional with trichotillomania, which I presume that mental health professional will be working off of, some version of the Mayo Clinics, which is you have a compulsion to pull your hair out and you would like to stop, but you can't,

or whether she has self-diagnosed.

I'm going to presume or hope that this is something she does to self-soothe,

that while certainly out of the ordinary realm of behavior, is not intrusive upon your life, Becca.

Because if it is, and you would like to stop but feel you can't, Daniel's offer of his own eyelashes, while generous, is not as good as some good therapeutic intervention.

Yeah, that kind of situation is absolutely 100%

what cognitive behavioral therapy and other similar sort of results-oriented forms of therapy are four

and work pretty effectively along with, you know, in some cases, medication for the anxiety or unwanted thoughts or whatever.

But I think it's worth being clear that if this really is interfering with the living of your life, it's worth seeking treatment and the treatment can be pretty effective.

And yet, nor do we want to diagnose from afar, because I am not a mental health professional.

I just looked at one Mayo Clinic webpage.

That's at least, I don't think it's an MD, but I think that makes you a nurse practitioner.

Bachelor of Doctordom.

I'm a BD.

I'm a Bachelor of Science doctor, a BSD.

On the other hand, it might be Daniel's kink to get his lashes plucked, and you guys be having the time of your life.

I don't know.

The thing that makes me a little bit worried about this letter is that Daniel is offering his lashes

and six is not enough.

That Becca is expressing in this letter that she wants endless plucks.

She wants all those lashes.

Six a day is a lot.

How many do you have?

200, maybe?

300?

That means in a couple months you're going to be running out of lashes.

Yeah, and then you're going to have to turn to your friends and neighbors.

She does mention that Daniel has a bounty of eyelashes, which I really would love to see some photographic evidence of Daniel's luscious lashes.

That's the moment where in this letter I was like, oh, that's too many plucks.

That makes me feel like maybe you have his six lashes in your grasp, grasp, but not, you do not have in hand this entire overall issue here.

So, you know, look, I hope you're doing well and I hope you're thriving.

But the fact that you want to pull all your boyfriend's eyelashes out, even if he is into it, that is a register of some friendly concern for me.

And you might want to talk it over with Daniel and see if there's some therapy that you can get to help soothe your anxiety.

I want to say it's very sweet of Daniel to offer this to you.

And I can see this kind of cute thing happening, this cute slash unusual thing happening between couples.

I had a girlfriend in high school who always wanted to pop my zits.

I was not into it.

I was not on board, but I could see in different circumstances, I could have been on board.

And it's sweet of Daniel.

That said, Daniel offered you six, and you're asking the judge to order that you be able to pluck out as many as you want.

And that is Daniel's body.

And the things that you do with his body, you have to do with his consent.

Yes, that is the baseline here.

This might be a fun thing for you guys to do together.

And all of our concerns are for naught.

And you're thriving in your life and you just love plucking lashes.

But if he has set a limit to six, you have to respect the agency of his body.

Those are his.

Now.

I don't run a buzz market, but you know my Instagram.

I put putty on top of old Star Wars action figures, and then I pull the putty off of those Star Wars action figures.

It's a weird thing to do that I find very soothing indeed.

In no way am I prescribing anything, but I just decided to get out some putty right now, and I'm going to be putting it on top of an Admiral Akbar figure later today, and it helps me to feel calm.

Check in with yourself, check in with the people around you, make sure you're feeling and doing okay, and maybe add a little putty to your routine.

Okay, let's take a quick break when we come back.

A case about diner coffee and a case about cooking with garlic.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lom.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This week, we're clearing the docket.

Here's something from Charlie.

He says, My girlfriend often asks for a sip of my coffee when we're at a diner that offers free coffee refills.

She's not enough of a coffee drinker to order her own, so one or two sips will satisfy her minimal caffeine requirement.

I'm hesitant to give her a sip because if our server were to see us sharing the coffee, we could be accused of breaking diner law.

It's capitalized.

And be reprimanded or worse, billed for two cups.

Do you know why it's capitalized?

Why is that?

Because it's a thing that exists.

Definitely.

Yeah.

A thing that exists.

Diner law.

It's specifically, it's a Dick Wolf series for NBC.

Diner Law.

Dung Dung dung Hartford.

I believe when you pay for a coffee in a diner, you're also paying for access to refills in the same way you pay for access to a buffet.

I still occasionally let her take a sip, but only when I've established the coast is clear.

When you consider the amount of coffee that goes to waste every day and the half-full mugs left on tables, her one sip seems trivial in the grand scheme of diner things.

By the way, diner things not capitalized, but I'd have capitalized that too.

Should I cut her off from my coffee altogether?

Should she continue with her sneaky sips?

Or should we both be thrown in diner jail for our crimes?

Diner jail capitalized.

Look, I want you to imagine this scenario, Charlie.

All right, let's say, hypothetically,

I say

that

it's fine for you to give your girlfriend a sip of coffee.

Now, I don't know what kind of diners you're hanging around in.

I don't know what the diner laws are in your state or Commonwealth.

But but let's say the server is a gruff sort, a salty late-night worker, as a diner server might often be.

And let's just say hypothetically they say you give them this sip and they say, don't do that.

I'm throwing you in diner jail, a thing that does not exist.

And you say back to them,

but excuse me, I have permission from a podcast to do this.

I don't think that's going to keep you out of diner jail.

If anything, I'm going to think you're going to be put in diner solitary.

This is another one where it's like, I can tell you what I think, but obviously my rule and the rule of this fake internet court with my friend and bailiff Jesse Thorne is completely unenforceable, you know, out in the lawless land of diners.

What happens in those diners, diners are their own fiefdoms.

I appreciate why you're a little bit anxious because diners can sometimes each seem to have their own specific rules and codes of conduct.

And for that reason, there's no way that a podcast ruling is going to help you from diner to diner to diner to diner.

This is simply a situation where it's like, if you really are concerned, just say to the server, do you mind if I give my girlfriend a sip of my coffee?

And the server's going to be like, why are you bothering me?

Of course that's okay.

Here's the thing, Charlie, you're living in fear.

And I understand why.

Because diners have their own rules and regulations and customs that are specific to those regions and sometimes to those very diners and sometimes to just that particular server.

It can be a little intense.

But for the most part, if you just treat people like other human beings decently, everything's going to be fine.

There is no diner jail.

I mean, truthfully, she should get a cup of coffee and have a sip.

The waste of four ounces of brown water is not a tremendous waste in the grand scheme of the world.

And the benefit to the diner of the extra buck, buck $52,

while not huge, is at least showing the generosity of your patronage.

But if she really doesn't want to get a cup of coffee and just want to have a sip, I think it's totally within your rights.

And all you have to do, if you're really worried about it, is just say, this is cool, right?

I don't know.

Am I off base here, Jesse?

What do you think?

John, I think you are entirely

right.

I think what Charlie is looking for is inoculation against the embarrassment of a waiter or waitress, quote-unquote, catching him and charging him a couple extra dollars.

And we cannot provide that inoculation.

Right.

There are two ways to inoculate yourself against that particular uncomfortable social interaction.

One of them is to ask ahead of time, and one of them is to order two cups of coffee.

Both of those are perfectly reasonable.

That said,

I also think it's perfectly reasonable for for your girlfriend to sip from your cup of coffee a couple of times.

You're not trying to beat the system.

You're not sharing one cup of coffee when you otherwise would have ordered two cups of coffee.

You are doing something that is entirely within the spirit of the rule.

The only part of that that you have to accept is that it is possible that the server will ask you to pay for two cups of coffee, and

you just need to accept that that uncomfortable social interaction could happen.

Sips are cool.

Sips are cool.

I think there's basically an unwritten rule for most restaurants.

Hey, have a sip of my coffee.

Have a sip of my milkshake, whatever.

But leaving that maxim aside, the important rule here is that human interaction is not fatal.

It's okay to get in a little bit of trouble because you didn't know the rule.

It'll be fine.

It's unlikely to happen.

It's okay to go up to the counter person and say, can I fill fill up my cup with water from that soda fountain?

Is that cool or is that not cool?

Just tell me the truth and hear what they have to say.

It's okay to navigate the world that you're in

by talking to the people around you rather than having a podcast tell you what to do.

I'm glad you listen and I'm grateful and flattered that you want our opinion.

Just get into the world and talk to people's faces.

Yeah, doing that more makes it easier.

It does.

I grew up not feeling comfortable interacting with other human beings.

I I had very little experience, as you know from my books, Vacation Land, and Medallion Status, with any kind of baseline confrontation skills because I was alone a lot of the time.

I didn't have siblings to wrestle with physically or psychologically.

I didn't play sports such that I learned that conflict could be ritualized and gotten through and then enjoyed.

For me, basic interactions from getting into an argument or expressing attraction or simply saying, can I sit here or no?

Like we're all felt equally fatal to me.

There may be diner law, but I promise you there is no diner jail.

It'll be fine.

John, can I say an instance of personal interaction that I had that felt great to me?

Yes.

I was standing on the platform of the gold line at Union Station here in Los Angeles, the Los Angeles Metro Subway System.

Yes.

And a woman made eye contact with me on the platform and smiled gently, and I smiled and nodded.

And I took my headphones out and she said, excuse me, are you Jesse Thorne?

And I said, yes.

And she said, oh, my husband and I are big Judge John Hodgman fans.

She stuck her hand out, introduced herself by name, said, my name is such and such.

We had a really nice...

conversation about Northeast Los Angeles and Pasadena that lasted a few minutes.

And she excused herself to go do some other stuff.

And I was like, I would love,

I'm not so famous that this would ever be an inconvenience to me of significant proportions.

And it was so nice to have someone not like tweet about seeing me later and tag me in it.

Like they were following me like an undercover detective.

And she really, truly didn't ask anything of me other than to say hello and offer me a compliment, which was lovely.

And it felt really great.

It really made my long trip home, or actually long trip to the shop where my car was being serviced, feel lovely because this nice woman had said she listens to this show.

So I just wanted to compliment that nice interaction since people are often asking us how we would like them to interact with us.

That's an example of a really nice interaction.

Yeah, offer me compliments.

Yeah, exactly.

I would just like to say to that woman, such and such, which is a great name,

you owe me one.

I mean, I love Jesse too, but

I'll be out there for Sketch Fest with Jesse on the 16th of January.

Judge John Hodgman Live Justice at the Castro.

Get tickets at johnhodgman.com slash tour.

And maybe I'll get on that gold line and just look for such and such.

And I'll just be riding it until I get the compliment I'm owed.

Speaking of lovely names, Abigail says that's that's Abigail with a V.

Yeah.

A-V-I-G-A-Y-I-L.

Nice name.

Terrific.

I would like to issue an injunction to stop my boyfriend Brian from cooking with powdered garlic and onion.

I would also like him to warn me before he uses more than half a clove of fresh garlic in his meal.

I'm not allergic to garlic, but I must strictly limit the amount of alliums I consume to avoid stomach pain and heartburn.

I'm also very sensitive to the smell of garlic breath.

Brian breathes through his mouth most of the time, increasing the amount of exposure I get to garlic breath.

It makes talking face-to-face with him unpleasant.

Cuddles and kisses are avoided, and it makes our bedroom smell.

I can also smell it when he sweats.

This has been a long-standing issue in our eight-year relationship.

Judge, help protect my sensitive nose.

I'm not going to lie, John.

That first sentence about powdered onion and garlic made me think this was going to be some kind of cooking snob question.

And

I was ready to take down the cooking snob and say powdered garlic and onion have their role.

It's just different from fresh garlic and onion.

I would love to hear your thoughts on that, but go on.

Yeah, I mean, that's basically my thoughts is that I know that there are cooking snobs.

There are real Anthony Bourdain enthusiasts, would be the broad category, who are of the opinion that you should never, ever use powdered onions and garlic because fresh onions and garlic exist.

And I understand that, but I think they are different things for different purposes.

I'd hate to try and make carne asada by sprinkling fresh garlic all over my flap steak.

So I was really surprised that this is actually about sensitivity to the chemicals in foods and sensitivity to the smells of foods.

And actually, John, this is something I relate to because I can really only eat a limited amount of onions and garlic, especially fresh onions and garlic, because they are a migraine trigger for me.

Well, and thank you for making it relatable to me too, Bailiff Jesse, because fresh garlic on my flapsteak is my favorite ragtime tune.

Yeah,

I particularly love Bessie Smith's bluesy take from the mid-1920s.

Abigail and Brian, I'm astonished that you have been together for eight years

because,

on the one hand,

Brian sounds like a stinky monster from Abigail's point of view.

Obviously, Abigail is profoundly sensitive to garlic and onions.

It causes her discomfort and displeasure.

And it has been going on for eight years, and yet she still loves Brian.

And meanwhile, Brian has been living with someone who cannot tolerate even the smallest amount of garlic.

And garlic to me is a very important flavor in my life.

It would be very hard for me to give up garlic in my cooking, either powdered or fresh.

Now, my rule of thumb with regard to that is that in a long, slow braise,

powdered garlic and powdered onion can be used to

bring up flavors.

If you need to add some garlic in a slow cooking environment, that powdered garlic rehydrates and builds a different layer of garlic flavor into something that is different from fresh garlic.

In the same way, that dried herbs like dried thyme, you would put that at the beginning of a long, slow cook of a soup.

But if you're adding fresh thyme, you would add that at the end.

That's a different, brighter, fresher flavor.

That's particularly true for garlic, the chemical profile of which and the flavor and odor profile of which change quite quite dramatically depending on how it is prepared.

From the amount that the cell walls are smushed, increases the sharpness of flavor to the manner and length of heating and cooking.

Right.

Is it a migraine trigger for you?

Is that why you are sensitive to alliums?

Alliums meaning garlic, onion, shallots, leeks, any of those bulby, pungent little dudes that you get out of the earth.

Yeah, if I eat particularly fresh garlic or a lot of sharp garlic, and I really like all of those foods, but if I eat the fresh, sharp versions of them, it is a particular migraine trigger.

And it's one of the ones where many years ago, I went on a migraine diet where I gave up everything that is a migraine trigger for everyone.

I thought you meant you only ate migraines.

Yeah.

It was one of the ones where when I reintroduced it to my diet after not having had it for six months, I really did go cold turkey on like 20 different things for six months.

It really stunk.

But it was one of those things where when I reintroduced it to my diet, I was like, oh, yeah, every time I eat this, I get a migraine.

I guess it's a migraine trigger.

But it's particularly significant in its sharpest forms.

So roasted garlic, I don't really have any problem with.

You know, some well-cooked garlic, if I'm using it to, you know, cook frozen green beans, I don't have a big problem with.

But if I put a bunch of fresh garlic on garlic bread and don't cook the living out of it, it often causes me a headache.

The same with onions.

Like a grilled onion on a burger, not really a problem, not a ton of onions.

If I eat some, you know, a salad with a lot of fresh onions in it, it'll end up with a headache.

Jesse, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the city of San Francisco.

Never heard of it.

That's a city in the Bay Area.

Is that in New England?

No, no, no, no.

It's almost the diametric opposite.

It's on the other side of the country.

Got it.

I first went to San Francisco, I think that I was about 19 years old.

And I was in town.

A friend of ours got married very young.

He is no longer married.

My girlfriend, now wife at the time, we were all part of a big friend group.

I hope, Charles, if you're listening, you will take this in the spirit in which it is meant, which is of deep affection and love.

My girlfriend at the time was sad that she could not go go to San Francisco for this wedding.

I guess maybe I was in my early 20s.

I had to have been now, I think of it, like 22.

And she was sad that she couldn't attend this wedding.

And her mom consoled her by saying, oh, don't worry about it, dear.

There will be more Charles's weddings in the future.

Both Charles and his bride found better lives apart than together, but they were getting married in the San Francisco Bay Area.

And I went out with our friends from the friend group, those of us who could afford to go, and we all stayed together in a house.

And Adam Sachs and I went to the Stinking Rose restaurant in San Francisco.

Have you ever been to the Stinking Rose?

I haven't, but I'm familiar with the restaurant.

It is a garlic-themed restaurant.

Not unlike the Gilroy Garlic Festival in Gilroy, California, where everything is flavored with huge amounts of garlic.

Right.

Or the famous garlic fries at the ballpark in San Francisco.

I think Abigail is probably weeping and puking at this moment just hearing all of this.

And I thought this was, everything there was garlic, garlicky, garlicky, garlicky.

And it had paintings of garlic on the wall.

And I was like, this is the most sophisticated restaurant I've ever been in.

And that's the first time I'd ever had banya cauda, which is a garlic and anchovy-infused warm olive oil that you dip bread and crudeté into.

I love garlic.

I love it.

But, you know, Abigail obviously doesn't.

Should I commend them for having stayed together despite this obvious difference in literal taste and smell?

Because Brian obviously likes garlic fine.

He's going to breathe it all over the place.

He's eating it so much.

Or do I point out the problem that over eight years of Brian knowing that Abigail cannot tolerate this,

literally or figuratively, that he's still doing it such to the point that she's coming now to a fake internet court to get relief.

I'm going to have to presume

that they love each other very much, and Brian just hasn't gotten the message yet.

That despite it being an obvious for someone who likes garlic, it's a huge sacrifice to cook without garlic.

So many cuisines use garlic because it's so good.

It's so good.

It's such an important and interesting and irreplaceable flavor.

And yet I like to think that if that woman who was my girlfriend and is now my wife just could not stand it, that I would not cook with it.

And I would limit my eating to it.

And then once or twice a year, I would go out to San Francisco and go to the stinking rose by myself and just go garlic all the way.

Just have a garlic men's weekend.

But I think, yeah, Brian, I think you got to cut it out.

I think you got to cut out the garlic.

Try some other weird flavors.

Like, try some anchovy.

Try some other strong flavors.

Fish sauce.

If that doesn't have garlic in it, I bet that probably, Abigail won't like that either.

Try to replace garlic in your flavor profiles with like Bragg's amino acids and other big, heavy umami flavors, like miso, for example.

Use miso and marinades instead of garlic.

Miso on a steak is an incredible marinade and sort of after-grilling topping, which I've just discovered is fantastic.

Broaden your repertoire and see if you can find something else that gives you that same kind of deep, funky kick that garlic gives you.

You're in this relationship not just to eat garlic, but to occasionally hug and kiss one another, so you got to respect Abigail in this.

The docket is clear.

That's it for another episode of Judge Sean Hodgman.

This week's episode, edited by Jesus Ambrosio, produced by Hannah Smith.

Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

We're on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman.

Make sure to hashtag your judgejohnhodgman tweets, hashtag jjho.

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