Live in Durham at the Carolina Theatre 2019

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week's episode recorded live in Durham, North Carolina, at the Carolina Theater.

And this is your Judge John Hodgman.

This is also our last episode of the year.

We hope you have a very happy new year.

Thank you for listening.

We'll be back in 2020 to bring you more justice.

Let's go to the stage at the Carolina Theater.

Durham, you've come to us desperate for justice, and we're here at the Carolina Theater to deliver it.

Friends, let's bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Grant and Pastor Irvin.

Tonight's case, son of a preacher ban.

Grant files suit against his father, Pastor Irvin.

Pastor Irvin regularly incorporates stories from his own life into his sermons, including stories about his children.

Greg grew up hearing his father's Sunday sermons, which oftentimes included stories about Greg.

Greg would like for his father to stop talking about him in his sermons.

Pastor Irvin feels he has the right to share stories about his family.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise metaphorically as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Podcasting

is awful.

It's awful.

It's painful.

It's frightening.

Makes you doubt yourself.

Judge yourself.

Distance yourself from other people in your life.

Makes you selfish.

Makes you creepy.

Makes you obsessed with your hair.

Makes you cruel.

Makes you say and do things you never thought you would do.

It's all any of us want, podcasting.

And it's hell when we get there.

So, no wonder it's something we don't want to do on our own.

I was told that if we were born with podcasting, then life is about choosing the right place to put it.

People talk about that a lot.

It feeling right.

When it feels right, it's easy.

But I'm not sure that's true.

It takes strength to know what's right.

And podcasting isn't something that weak people do.

Being a podcaster takes a hell of a lot of hope.

I think that's what they mean when they say you find somebody that you podcast with,

it feels like hope.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Grant, Pastor Irvin, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he consorts with members of the Church of Satan?

It's true.

It's true.

It's true.

He's friends with them.

They're nice.

It's true.

Interfaith, it's called.

Sure.

Let the record show the pastor said, sure.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

First of all, Grant and Pastor Irvin, you may may be seated.

It's true that I thought for the cultural reference that I would read the blurb that my first book, The Areas of My Expertise, was given by Peter H.

Gilmore, Hi Magus of the Church of Satan, which was, thank you for bringing more laughter into this world.

They're fun.

Not actual devil worshipers, Pastor Irvin.

It's more of an art project, don't worry.

But for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom.

Grant, you're young.

Your cosplaying is Adam Scott on Parks and Rec?

I'll just say

Reverend Jesse James autobiography, maybe?

Reverend Jesse James

autobiography.

Those are words.

Sure.

John.

So Jesse James is a famous outlaw.

Yeah.

Who then became ordained in the Universal Church of Life when his friends asked him to marry him?

He's like, oh, I've got to go to the internet and do this thing.

Can I tell tell you an honest fact?

Yeah.

My father and stepmother were married by a priest named Jesse James.

Really?

Yeah, that's a true story.

So that's who you were referencing specifically, obviously, Grant.

Kind of an inside baseball thing, but I took a guess.

That's right, very good.

Good research.

Pastor Irvin, do you have a guess as to what piece of culture I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

It sounded like a little bit like Gandhi.

Gandhi and Jesse James.

That's...

Truly is a flip of the coin.

I guess Montezuma.

All guesses are wrong.

Was it Teddy Roosevelt?

I'm just naming figures from history.

That's what they did.

Fictional character.

Did anyone get it?

Fleabag is correct.

It's the priest's homily at the wedding in the second season of Fleabag.

Check it out.

Hot priest?

Hot priest.

That's right, hot priest.

Sorry, I was talking to them for a while.

Let's talk to you.

I did mean Jesse Jackson.

No, I understand.

It's very clear.

Don't worry about it for a second.

Okay.

You had something in your hand.

Is that evidence?

No, but it's just a gift.

Oh, really?

This is some bribery.

A gift, you say?

Yeah.

Another gift?

Maybe.

It's a card game.

Classic!

We'll buzz market your card game near the end.

Thank you.

So, all right.

You bring this case, do you not, Grant?

Yes.

And tell me what the what is the.

Hold on, Grant, why don't you just bring an asthma inhaler?

Actually, I could use one right about now.

I don't have a a prescription for that, so I just couldn't really get a hold of it.

I understand.

You know, growing up, my dad would be at the pulpit from time to time.

He actually spent about 20 years as a children's minister.

So he was my direct Sunday instructor for quite a while.

Sure.

You know, he would bring up these stories about my childhood, about my sister's childhood, that were a little embarrassing.

He's pretty good at what he does, so we would be at pretty big churches, and on Sunday morning, morning, if he would tell a fairly embarrassing story, there would be maybe half as many people as there are in this room right now, like hundreds of people

listening about what I did when I was four years old, three years old.

And what sort of things would he tell that were so embarrassing?

You know, I would.

These are as many examples as you can remember.

I was a handful as a kid, but he specifically told a story about me wanting some attention while he was on the phone, and I cut the phone phone line.

Right.

And I presume he was on the phone with God?

No.

Yes.

Pastor Irvin,

what denomination are you a pastor in?

United Methodist Church.

Fantastic.

How do you defend yourself against your son's accusations that you have been misusing his life in the sermons?

I guess I usually just respond with, you know, I'll give you five bucks, you know, for royalties.

Have you ever made good on that offer, sir?

Probably not.

Ah, I see.

Wow.

Yeah.

Then there may be some damages to be awarded.

But, you know, it's like these stories that I tell, though, they're stories that involve both of us.

You know, it's our father-son relationship.

You know, I was on the phone with somebody and he wanted to talk to me and I walked right by him coming home from, that's back when I was teaching school.

And I kind of just kind of switched hatch, switched gears, and kind of ignored him.

And so he reached his hand into one of those childproof lock drawers, pulled out a pair of scissors, and cut the cord.

And of course, I did what, you know, we all did back then, you know, hello, hello, you know, and there's nobody there.

So, and then I look down and he looks at me.

He's about three years old at that point, and he goes, are you going to listen to me now?

Whoa.

And then I think I start to change some colors, you know, kind of like, you know, white to dark red.

And then he takes off and goes run,

run down, he runs down the hall and he gets under his Barney bed right because he's scared so I was like you know 12 15 16 17 and these stories were coming up yeah but this is to clarify John because there are some kids here later on if you're interested romantically in another kid the best thing to do this will happen when you're 12 15 16 is just have your dad bring up your Barney bed

or even it's great isn't it even now how old are you now I'm 27 you still have that Barney bed grant

you still be bedding bedding it, baby?

He's like, no, I got a race car now, man.

Yeah.

In your father's defense, that's a pretty badass story.

That's, I mean, you know, first of all, that took some skill to get into that childproof drawer, get those scissors.

That was a big move to cut the cord.

I presume that when you're under your Barney bed, the demon speaks to you and tells you what to do in order to...

And so, I mean, I think that's an incredible story.

What was the context of the story in your sermon?

Well, the context was I was drawing an analogy to how sometimes we don't want to listen to God, how that we get so busy that we don't really want to tune in and hear what he has to say.

And so sometimes...

So you're saying your son is God?

No.

No, it was an analogy.

Oh, sorry.

You know,

it was an analogy.

Yes, no, I think that that's right.

You know, kind of part of the things that we've done and all of the experiences that we've had.

And so, you know, a good storyteller tries to draw on, you know, those personal things.

But yeah, I mean, I think that that's, it's not merely just a heartwarming story, but it's a fairly arresting story about being mindful in life, right?

To the things that are meaningful to you.

Correct?

Right.

I think that's fair use.

I don't think you owe him five bucks for that one.

Well, Grant, you have another complaint.

What's another one that you felt bad about?

Well, yeah, so that's one example, but he also mentioned a story about, you know, when I needed to get a booster shot and I got put into one of those harnesses.

And he tried to kind of soothe me and say, you know, you're like a caterpillar, you'll be a butterfly.

And then I shrieked, I don't want to be a butterfly.

That's in line with the material.

Well, I was trying to get his mind off the blood getting drawn.

Yeah, no, that's right.

That's extremely touching.

Right.

I mean, he was three years old, and he had never had that kind of high fever thing.

And he's, you know, there, and they're putting this Velcro papoose thing all around him to hold him still so they can draw the blood.

And I thought, well, that'd be a great idea.

You know, take his mind off it.

And, you know, you're going to be a butterfly.

And then he said, with just crocodile ears coming down his cheeks, Daddy, I don't want to be a butterfly.

I know.

Crocodile tears suggest insincerity.

Do you think he was faking it?

Oh, no.

Okay.

No.

Gotcha.

No.

Why didn't you want to be a butterfly, Grant?

I just wasn't ready yet.

Are you there now?

Are you close?

All there?

Almost there?

When I turn 30, I think I'll be there.

Yeah.

Grant, you know what story my aunt Gail likes to tell about me?

What's that?

It's It's the time I went to her company picnic, and I disappeared for a little while.

It was on an island near San Francisco called Angel Island.

I disappeared for a little while, and I came back while everyone was getting their food, and I looked up at her and I said at the top of my voice, Aunt Gail, I pooped on the beach like a dog.

The moral of the story is you can win these negotiations.

So in the context, Pastor Irvin, of the sermon,

this story symbolizes what?

What were you illustrating in the story of, or were you just sort of bragging about what a great dad you are?

No, no, no, no, no.

Because I thought, by the way,

that's a very touching story.

Well, thank you.

And when Grant tells it, I'm like, this dad's terrific.

And then thinking of you telling it at church, I'm like, this dad likes talking about what a good dad he is.

But I don't think it was about that.

What was the context?

It's about the idea of new life,

that God loves us and God wants to bring us new life and give us an opportunity to be everything that he's created us to be.

So that's kind of where the story fits.

Let me give you

a B plus.

Okay.

That is generous.

God wants us to turn into butterflies by getting our blood drawn.

Is that the message here?

This is not a comment on your expression of faith,

which is A plus.

I am a...

purely agnostic non-religious person, but A plus for expression of faith.

Very touching.

And then also, I would say, solid A for a fun story about your kid.

Right.

But it feels a little, they feel shoehorned together.

Whereas cutting the telephone cord, are you listening to me now?

It's like, boo.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I feel healed by that.

Do you know what?

Like,

that makes me want to walk again.

So

I don't think that's what the Methodists are up to, but

I apologize for every joke that I make.

When did you start telling these stories?

How old was Grant initially?

Grant was probably about, you know, eight or nine.

Eight or nine.

Was he in the congregation?

Sometimes.

Yeah.

Sometimes it was a.

Between the ages of like one and 18, I was in church, like every week.

Right.

So, okay.

Were you not aware that he was there every week?

There were just different venues that we shared them, sometimes at camp, you know, great camp stories.

And I just found that, you know, kids really appreciated hearing about stories that they could relate to.

Sure.

You know, times in their lives where things didn't work out good or they got in trouble or stuff like that.

And you know, Grant, Grant got in trouble a lot.

What?

Tell me more.

Tell me another story.

This one doesn't have to be a metaphor for anything.

Okay,

we had just moved to a church in Orlando and we'd just been there a few months and sometimes in between services, I wouldn't have a total track of where my kids were.

So I tried to keep an eye on him as much as I could, but I was talking to people, doing my pastor thing.

And so he actually came up to my boss, the senior pastor, and actually kind of hit him in the family jewels.

So

I think that's a kid-friendly term.

So like I said, he just really gave us great material.

Is he an okay kid now, or is I following the kids?

Oh, he's a great kid now.

I'm employed, so that's good.

You're making...

Tell us about your card game.

That's something I do in my spare time.

I have a studio called Honeycomb Interactive, but I also work full-time at a major video game company in the area.

You never yourself felt the call to service as your dad did.

No.

No.

When did you decide to become a pastor, if I may?

When I was 12.

When you're 12 years old.

Yeah.

Actually, my mom was a teacher, and I was, you know, for a while.

And my dad was a fire chief.

And so no,

I have an uncle who's a pastor, but I was really the first pastor clergy in my immediate family.

But when I started out in ministry,

like Grant was saying, for the first 20 years, I was involved in children's ministry.

I was a children's pastor.

So I would use lots of different object lessons and puppetry and different things like that.

And that's kind of where Grant and I kind of first shared, you know, those hobbies that were first hobbies before I went into the ministry full-time.

And one of them was puppetry, and he was doing puppet characters like at the age of three.

And he was memorizing scripts.

And so storytelling was always kind of a part of our relationship.

You know, we just love stories.

Right.

And then you just started taking his stories and using them

to spread the word.

I guess, yeah.

For your own spiritual gain.

Grant, did you ever express your displeasure with your father?

Not before my mother did.

Oh, okay.

What was her complaint?

She said, Andy, it's embarrassing the children don't do it.

That would be you, Pastor Irvin?

Right.

She tried to ask me.

She's allowed to call you something other than Pastor.

Like me.

Right, I got it.

We're not.

Okay, I got it.

We're not on that level.

I agree.

We'll get there.

Okay.

Were you embarrassed?

Did you say something to your mom?

Yeah, I think we eventually, me and my sisters, because we're all kind of three years apart.

Okay.

So we all kind of grew up with this experience.

And your sisters are also grised for the story, Milt?

Not as much as me.

And you sent in some evidence, right?

Some photos of the family.

Who sent it in?

Would it be you, Grant?

My mother picked them out, and I kind of sent them in.

Let's have a look at these photos.

They'll all be available on the Judge Sean Hodgman page at maxbund.org and art.

Wow.

This is adorable.

Also on Instagram at Judge Sean Hodgman.

Yeah.

So here's Pastor Irvin and Grant, young Grant, sporting not one but two gold medallions.

Thank you for being gold.

Yes.

What do you get those awards in?

Probably Bible quizzing, I would guess.

And some puppetry.

Double gold?

Yeah.

One gold in Bible quizzing, and one gold in puppetry.

Grant, what is this evidence you sent in to represent?

Proof that I was a child and that he was a dad or is a dad.

The stories are true.

Yes, I recognize you as those people at an earlier time.

Next piece of evidence, please.

Here is a family portrait.

These are the whole family, including

your wife/slash Grant's mom plus the two sisters, right?

And did the sisters ever figure into the sermons, or did Grant get special treatment?

Sometimes.

But less often Grant was the...

Probably Grant.

Right, because he was a terror.

Is this a picture of the five of you on your way to audition for a local production of Fossey?

No.

No, it was

a church directory photo, actually.

Right.

We're dressed as beatniks.

My wife said we're all wearing one color.

I hate to say this because it already made everyone uncomfortable, but there's a real Church of Satan vibe in this.

It's just

a striking look.

It's just all black.

Yeah.

Next slide, please.

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about.

Loving family next to a body of water.

And this is vacation.

That we're all happy here because someone's missing in the

right place.

I was taking the picture.

Historical family jewels.

I was taking the picture.

That's true.

He was taking the picture.

He was there.

When I was not there, I was the one taking the picture, right there.

And this is to represent

proof of family life.

Well, they're adorable photos.

Thank you.

Did you ever think to, at a certain point, to ask Grant's permission to continue to use these stories?

No.

Do you use them to this day?

Yeah.

Well, you know, again, there are stories that kind of describe our relationship.

I mean, we're both in the stories.

Sure.

We both, you know, are involved.

And

it kind of supports that, you know, kind of his origins and where he started from and like all these things that kind of became part of his identity.

I understand.

And I could definitely see, as a father myself, I could definitely see an argument that my children's lives and life stories belong to me.

They're my intellectual property.

And I've certainly made a bundle off them in my books.

But I ask this.

Grant has now expressed, first via his mother, now in person.

in an open forum,

that this makes him uncomfortable.

I mean, Grant, are you asking me to rule that your father not tell these stories again?

There's another wrinkle because he is a published author.

So it covers vocal stories but then also written word.

I just want a full coverage, full protection.

Oh, I thought you were asking for a portion of his earnings.

No, no.

I understand raising a child is expensive, so I'm not looking for damages.

Grant, if you decide to seek damages, I got a few good negotiating techniques you might try.

Okay.

The family jewels.

Pooping on the beach like a dog.

All right.

So you would like me to order your father to excise

all of the stories, all the Grant stories in his sermon repertoire and no longer write them down either.

And I presume destroy all copies of his books to date?

How does he even work these childhood stories into into his spy thrillers?

It's a secret.

If I told you, I'd have to kill you.

What kind of books are you writing?

They're really books about working with kids in the church and

cool stuff.

Now, those are strong demands.

So I presume that they are underscored by strong and sincere feelings of discomfort with these stories being told.

Now that Grant has expressed that, does that make you feel differently about telling the stories?

I think they make me feel more sensitive to

using stories that are going to still put him in a very positive light.

You know, I don't ever want to say anything or do anything that would intentionally embarrass him or upset him, but it definitely makes me think more about

being sensitive to that.

All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

Okay.

I'm going to go into my private Church of Satan chapel, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Grant, how are you feeling about your chances in the case right now?

You know, fantastic, pretty much.

It was a little, you know, I had to lose a little because those stories did come out in the open air in front of a lot of people.

Yeah, I was surprised you told the first one.

Well, yeah, so it's, I think it was worth it overall.

We're also going to podcast this.

Did you know that?

I did, yeah.

I'm just saying, don't run for Congress or whatever.

Pastor Irvin,

how are you feeling about your chances?

You know, I have

no really worries about it.

You know, I think that John and I are both dads.

You know, we both have been on both some interesting journeys, and I think he appreciates

my son's creativity as much as I do.

Take a look at your son right now.

I don't know if he has children, but he's already a dad.

The two of you are on even footing.

Pastor Irvin,

I don't know how Methodists feel about throwing Hail Mary passes.

You might be in trouble here.

And I think I've got a negotiating technique for you.

Okay.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

You both seemed very confident as I listened in to your

assessment of your chances in the case.

There is a little saying that we have in the Church of Satan:

pride goeth before the fall.

No, no, no.

The Church of Satan doesn't say that.

They say, do whatever you want.

Let God sort it out.

I guess.

I don't know.

I'm not a member of the Church of Satan.

I just, that's, neither are any of the members of this family.

I alluded to the fact that I am also a storyteller, just for money.

No larger purpose.

John, whatsoever.

John, money and vanity.

Money, vanity, pride, envy, sloth, all those things.

Yeah.

That's why I'm out here slinging the stories.

And for a long time,

I chose not to tell stories about my children, either directly or in indirect fictional ways.

And I refused to even name them in my early written work, in part because I respected their privacy, in part because telling stories about children, especially when they are young, and especially I would say in comedy, can verge on hackiness very quickly because kids are kind of dumb and they say hilarious things.

They are basically material generators.

Do you know what I mean?

My kid's brain hasn't grown to full adulthood yet, and so they said a dumb thing, ha ha ha.

But in a very real way, because I did not want to use them for material.

And then I moved into a different phase of my storytelling when instead of telling very arch, absurdist, humorous haha jokes, I started telling true stories from my life as you tell true stories from yours.

And the time came, both I felt, to be open about my journey through fatherhood and that that might be helpful to other people.

And so I would talk about my children and tell stories about things that we experienced together without naming them.

But, you know, they don't need me to get famous.

Or they shouldn't.

The point is, I'm the famous one, not them.

Not here to make them famous.

And I also started telling stories about their lives because I was out of material and I had to.

All of my concerns about hackiness went into the garbage because, like, I got to fill up time.

One question I didn't ask and should have: honest answer:

how big a part of your act,

in comedy terms, is grant a part of.

Settle on a percentage individually.

Like

50% of your sermons have a grant story in them, 25%, 5%, 90%.

Settle on something in your mind.

You settle on something in your mind.

Okay.

And after I say three, you both say what you came up with.

One, two, three.

15%.

I would land on 15 as well.

You just waited until your daddy talked first.

You're supposed to be a rule break.

So,

is it a choice every time, especially as your children grow up and they become whole human beings who have feelings and reputations of their own, who are known in their community, and have a right to a measure of privacy?

Is this story worth it?

Is this story

going to communicate something to someone else and really help them such that it is worth violating the privacy of my child without their permission?

Or is it just sort of funny?

One of them I gave a B plus, solid B B plus, in terms of its engagement with what you were trying to say to your congregation.

The other one, cutting the phone cord, it was such a powerful illustration of what you were trying to talk about.

You can tell that one for the rest of your life.

I mean, here's the thing.

I think that you should take very seriously the fact that Grant is made uncomfortable, that he has asked you to stop.

And

if Grant had not goaded you into telling the story about him punching someone in the nuts,

I might take him seriously.

I might have ruled in his favor completely.

But clearly, clearly

your lives and your stories are entwined there are some stories that you want to have out there such as you

hurting your dad's pastor boss

shall be enshrined forever in podcast history

your lives are entwined and

Grant, I can't in good conscience put an injunction on your dad's dad's right to remember you as you were when you were younger, just cutting and punching and running and hiding

and screaming and crying and non-butterflying.

And wearing that one hat from that picture.

Yeah.

2009 was a heady time.

I know.

That's right.

These are stories that are not merely

of service to his congregation when used correctly, but also of service to him, I would think, to remember what it was like to be a parent of a younger child, because you're disappearing before his eyes.

You have grown into a handsome, childless young dad

wearing a shawl-collar sweater.

So I am not going to find in your favor grant.

I am going to instead grant your dad, Pastor Irvin, the right to continue to tell these stories on on two conditions.

One is you need to think very carefully now that your son is an adult and you know how he feels, whether it's worth it.

There are times when parents say, and parents have said to me, I know it's wrong, but I'm doing it anyway.

If he does not actively grant your permission

and you use the story anyway, you need to be able to justify it in the power of the storytelling, such that you can turn to your son and say, I know it's wrong, but I'm doing it anyway.

And

that I want you to think carefully before you use those stories.

I don't think that

butterfly story is a great dinner table story when it is totally appropriate to embarrass your son.

It's not embarrassing.

It's just a story about what a great dad you are.

That cutting the phone cord, boy, oh boy.

Chef kiss.

The other caveat or commandment, if I may,

is atonement.

Pride goeth before the fall.

You sat up there, you're like, I don't care what he thinks.

I'm going to keep telling these stories.

I would like you to turn to your son and say, in your own words, that you care what he thinks and you're sorry that you hurt his feelings.

But into the microphone.

It's really hard.

Grant,

I really do care about you, and I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings.

And now,

now say,

but I'm doing it anyway.

But I'm doing it anyway.

All right, very good.

This is the Santa McCapple.

Grant and Pastor Irvin, thank you.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

we serve it up every monday for you if you're listening and if not we just leave it out back and goes rotten so check it out on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts

all right we're over 70 episodes into our show let's learn everything so let's do a quick progress check have we learned about quantum physics yes episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

We have brought so far, I think, a modest amount of justice.

I think that the Durham area, the research triangle, requires further justice.

Do you think we could do it?

I mean, we only got about 15 minutes to do this.

We have children in the audience, one of whom is desperately wanting to go to bed.

I can see right now.

Do you think we can offer treble justice in 15 minutes?

Set a timer and let's move to swift justice.

Okay.

Please welcome our first case, Linda and Bridget.

Linda and Bridget.

Which one is Linda, please?

This is Linda.

Hi, Linda.

How are you?

I'm great.

You can hold that stool a little bit closer to the microphone if you'd like to be more comfortable that way.

And you must be Bridget.

Yeah.

And your relationship is.

She's my mom.

Okay, and she's your daughter.

She's my daughter.

Yeah, I put that together very well.

Perfect.

Who comes to this court seeking justice?

Is it you, Bridget, or you, Linda?

I do.

And Bridget, what is your complaint?

So, my mom, about a year ago, started doing this thing where she planks every single day,

and she's been increasing it by 10 seconds every day for the past year.

For the benefit of the sedentary in the audience, would you explain what planking is, Linda?

Planking is, for me, the way I do it, I

am in

not a prone position, but in a position where I'm up on my arms and my toes.

Sort of.

Plank.

Planking your body above the floor, holding yourself aloft on your

arms.

And is this a Pilates move or just a general sort of core strength?

I think it's just a general fitness move.

Right.

And how did this get started for you?

So I was in a yoga class and my instructor was just one day mentioned, oh, the world record for planking was set.

And

it's like 10 hours,

10 minutes and 10 seconds.

And then he stopped and took like a 30-minute break and then planked for another like nine hours.

After he set the record.

Yeah.

The world record planker.

exactly and what's this person's name george hood well i didn't think you were going to remember

i was going to speak to the futility of planking in the in the history of the world how no one's ever remembered for planking only the weirdos yeah but george hood george hood george hood well

he's now internationally famous v our podcast i'm surprised i should not have dozens of people

i should i should not i should not have thrown shade on a planker and uh what's your goal with the the planking?

How long can you do it and what's your goal?

So I'm up to

an hour and 16 minutes and 50 seconds.

And

I'd like to go to two hours.

I'll do it every day.

I've backed off a little bit.

I started and when I got to about 40 minutes, it was just too much.

What do you think about when you're doing this?

I do different things.

Like, I can read.

Oh, okay.

It's not purely meditative.

No.

It's just self-punishing.

It's tentative, yeah.

Do you watch shows?

Do you stream?

Do you listen to podcasts?

Listen to podcasts.

Read.

Right.

How do you turn the pages?

I just take it.

I don't do it on my elbows.

I do arm planking, so I just do one-handed planking.

That doesn't ruin the plank?

No.

All right, good.

What are you reading?

Lots of things.

Yeah, I know.

It's the worst question in the world.

I apologize.

Your mom seems pretty awesome.

Why?

What's your complaint?

Do you live at home?

No, I live away from home.

My problem is...

Are you a legal adult?

I'm 20.

You're out in the world?

Yeah, I'm out in the world.

It's not like you're at home tripping over your mom and getting a snack.

No, no, but she's probably just like all the other whatever comes after millennials.

She's just planking TikTok.

It's true.

Or like not even a TikTok.

Not even a full TikTok.

But sincerely,

why bring your case before this court?

She, It's not so much the planking, because I know that she loves it,

but it's the extremity of the planking.

And I'll call her during the week,

and I'll be like, hey, mom, what's up?

And she's like, oh, I'm just planking.

I'll go over there to spend the night or something over to her house.

And she's like, okay, I got to do my plank now.

And then I'll just be sitting on my phone while she's on the floor planking.

Yeah, but she can read a book.

She can have a conversation.

I mean, admittedly, it's strange.

That's the problem.

But it's not, she's not going into her own, right?

You're not going into your own world, right, Linda?

You can still have a conversation with Bridget while planking, right?

Yeah, I like the distraction of a conversation while planking.

Well, but you just, oh, so you're just using Bridget

as a plank to straighten.

Hey, Bridget, can you come over so I can plank and have a conversation?

Yeah.

Why do you think Bridget is concerned about your planking?

What do you interpret this as?

Because I don't get it.

I interpret it as her just thinking that I'm going overboard and being a little over the top, maybe.

And you agree, Bridget?

Yeah, and like maybe a health concern, like whatever.

Is a health concern?

A little bit.

You afraid she might break herself in half?

I'm just going to cut to the chase here, John.

Linda, are you just afraid to die?

Yes.

Yes or no?

I welcome death.

She's just a welcome.

Does your mom's welcoming of death trouble you, Bridget?

I don't know.

She's not, you know, like buying me groceries anymore.

Right.

So

less than maybe like six years ago.

Now you can feed yourself.

It's fine for her to die?

I'm just kidding.

Sure, okay.

John, let's call up the circle of life.

Right.

I think you're coming into focus for me now, Richard.

There are two things that I think could be going on here, and let me know if either of them resonate with you.

Does your mom have a history of going overboard with hobbies in the past?

Yeah, exercise hobbies.

Can you give me an example?

Well,

just like this reverence, like like a worship for like the the workout, her workout regime.

Like she's like, I'm empty without it.

We want to be alive.

We don't welcome death.

I don't believe your body.

The other thing that might be going on is that it's sometimes hard for adult children to adjust to how their parents start getting weirder and weirder once they've left the house

as we try to figure out what just happened for the past 18 to 20 years of our lives

when our entire lives were given over to this lovely parasite that we were raising.

And now all they want to do is criticize us on stage.

Does your mom's weird hobby just freak you out a little bit?

Maybe partially that.

I think it's a very like, I feel like it might be more productive to just like go to the therapist or something.

Sorry, sorry.

I do that.

Look, I appreciate that you can have open communication with each other.

I think there's only one way to resolve resolve this dispute, and that is trial by planking.

Linda,

would you mind planking on stage

in this area?

I do not mind.

I'm glad to hear that.

Because, Linda, if you can plank for the rest of this entire segment,

Then I shall rule in your favor.

If you should falter,

Bridget shall be the winner.

I don't even know what it means, except winning or losing.

It's not fair.

She can do it.

Let me tell you something, young lady.

Life isn't fair.

Mom, get planking.

The stakes are higher for your mother.

If she loses, we murder her.

Let's get Linda into planking mode.

Linda's.

Oh, someone wants to plank with her.

All right, there she goes.

Lynn now removed her sensible and attractive flats.

Someone start a timer.

Someone's here, this person on the end, start a timer.

We'll add 10 seconds to whatever your result is.

Bridget, if you would like to sit by your mom while she planks, or you may leave the stage, which would you like?

I know this is.

I'm going to watch you from afar.

Watch you from.

I love you.

Good luck.

Bridget, we'll have you come out later when we figure out the result of this.

But let's move on to the next case.

Please welcome Megan and Laura.

She can't even watch you, Linda.

She can't even watch you.

Megan and Laura,

who brings this case before me?

I do.

And what justice do you seek?

And what's your name?

I'm Megan.

Hi, Megan.

Hi.

How are you?

I'm John.

Good.

You can call me Pastor John.

So I bring this case against my sister.

I really like to sing.

I often make up songs and words to songs.

I'm just singing along with songs in my head all the time.

And Laura says that I ruin songs.

And I would like her to stop telling me that I ruin songs and just let me live my life.

May I presume that Laura is the elder sister?

I'm the middle child.

And in age relation to Megan?

Megan's like a year and a half older than me.

I'm the older child.

You're older.

Oh, you're the eldest.

We get that a lot, actually.

Interesting.

Yeah, because you are an angry, controlling person who wants to...

Who resents your sister's joy.

You resent her freedom to

move through the world happily and without the need to be the good one all the time.

That's why I pegged you for the older sister.

Those are not the words I I would choose.

No, no, you're just a middle child.

Very much that.

So, all right, I understand.

How does Megan ruin songs?

I'd like to point out for the record that Megan does have a beautiful singing voice.

Megan

sings like a bird, she harmonizes, it's beautiful.

So when she's singing for real, it's a beautiful thing.

But then all of a sudden, she'll just

or change the words or like make fun of it.

And so then it just grinds my gears.

I'm like, why can't you just either sing the beautiful normal words or just sit in silence?

Well, have you ever considered she might be singing a song by the fat boys, in which case going

would be perfectly appropriate?

How are you doing, Linda?

Good?

Fantastic.

Megan, she's down there steady blanking.

At one point, you were going to speak.

Let's go back to that.

Okay.

Well, also, part of the problem is that I don't even have to say anything before I ruin a song for Laura.

And I do try to be conscious of certain songs that she is sensitive to.

What songs in particular?

So Laura is an aerialist performer.

So if she is going to be doing a.

Wait, hold on.

A Judge John Hodgman litigant with circus skills?

Do you also like board games, ma'am?

Very much so.

Yeah.

So,

you know, if it's something that is meaningful for Laura, I try very hard my best to not sing different words or sing in a goofy voice, but I don't realize that I'm doing it most of the time, which is the issue.

I can't always find it.

I'm sorry, what does this have to do with aerial artistry?

If it's a song that she's performing to,

then she will say,

don't sing to the song.

That's the only thing I'll think about while I'm in the air is you singing the weird way of the songs.

Before I ask what the song, well, what is the song?

Well, she's done several performances.

She's done one to Sylvan Esso and Hoosier.

These are nonsense syllables.

This is not Huey Lewis in the news sports.

I got there, Jesse.

Sylvan Esso Duramites know what Sylvan Esso is.

What is the song?

So it's called Come Down, and it's one of their lesser-known ones.

And it's a cappella, and it's just Amelia singing over some weird, like vibey electronic stuff.

So it's super soft and sweet.

And so the last thing I need when I'm 18 feet in the air doing this very serious piece is Megan

in the back of my head going, Come dance.

I'm just

so you mostly do Scott Stab voice?

Honestly, I don't know because I don't even always realize that I'm doing it.

She'll just be like, Megan, you're doing it.

Megan says that you have a beautiful voice, but that you sometimes go

in whatever.

How do you respond?

Is that true?

And

are you moving into weird voice on purpose?

Obviously, we're going to hear a demo of good voice and weird voice in a moment.

But I just, like, what's going on?

Definitely, there is a combination.

And like I said, I don't even always realize that I'm doing it.

So I'm probably doing it by myself in the car.

Yeah, I'll be either just singing on purpose.

And if either I don't know the words or if there's a natural pause in the song, I'm like, this needs a little rapping in the middle.

You know, then something comes out.

I can guarantee that's not true.

We did submit some evidence.

I don't know if it's available.

Oh, yes, of course.

Let's see.

But it's not.

Let the record show that there is a beautiful photo of Megan and Laura levitating

in Long Island.

You're an incredible aerialist.

You're doing that without a trapeze or anything.

Yeah, she's holding it.

No silks or whatever.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

There is a picture of Megan.

This is not this one, unfortunately, although.

This is a picture of someone stealing.

That's Megan.

That's Megan stealing an hors d'oeuvre or a cookie.

A cookie at our sister's wedding.

And this demonstrates Megan's just commitment to whimsy.

And

I thought it was going to be lack of impulse control.

Yes!

And

kind of the same thing.

Correct.

Yes.

This is actually also not the picture I was thinking.

Well, let's see.

It's coming.

Oh, that's.

That's a dog dressed as a gosh darn rainbow.

Linda,

but he's also dressed as the Joker from the movie The Joker.

He doesn't care for society's conventions.

What does this represent?

So this is my dog, Quincy.

He's a 10-year-old toy poodle rescue.

Lovely.

And it demonstrates that I, too, have a sense of whimsy, and I'm not a whatever you called me at the beginning, controlling.

Obsessed with control and resentful of younger, freer people because

you lived your entire life under the pressure to be the good one.

Yeah, my dog's a rainbow.

Josh, he's got a point.

The dog's a rainbow.

Methinks thou doth dress your dog up too much.

And is there any other evidence that you wish to share?

No, we don't.

Oh, this is okay.

There actually was a picture of Megan singing Wind Beneath My Wings as she made a hole-in-one in mini golf.

Yeah.

Well, a picture of that would not be as good as Megan singing it now.

Obviously, you care very much about each other.

Yes.

Right?

Yes.

And you spend a lot of time together, or else this wouldn't be an issue.

Right.

If you were estranged,

you would never hear her

singing again.

And if I were to rule in your favor, that's exactly what's going to happen.

You'll never hear her sing again.

There's got to be a middle ground.

So, no, no, middle child.

No middle ground.

You're the one who brought this case.

No, you are.

I did, yes.

So sing to your sister,

wind beneath my wings, and we'll decide.

Sure, okay.

That was a total fake throat clear, by the way.

Hehem.

Hehem.

Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me,

open-pit barbecue sauce.

All right.

Did I ever tell you you're my hero?

You're everything I wish I could be.

I could fly higher than an eagle

because you are the wind beneath my wings.

Nailed it.

Even the woman who was planking managed to applaud.

I do not understand how you could be ruining any song.

That wasn't a ruining example.

How about I'll sing the song and then you ruin it?

All right.

I'll allow it quickly now.

Did I ever tell you you're my hero?

You're my hero, baby.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Nailed it again.

Reverse nailed it.

I find in Megan's favor.

Sing whatever you want.

Please welcome Allie and Karen.

Allie

and Karen, please come to the stage.

Oh, but tis the season of giving.

You have also brought something to the court.

I sure have.

And

probably not drugs, right?

Not this time, sorry.

Oh, all right.

Who seeks justice before the court, please?

I seek justice before the court.

And you are.

I'm Allie.

Allie, and you must be Karen.

Yes.

Allie, what is the nature of the dispute and the reason for these two beautiful cakes out here?

My favorite sister in the whole world, and I have a whole bunch.

I love her so much.

What we're recording now.

I have a whole bunch.

I would do anything for her on her birthday.

And she has become, she is very inflexible about the cake that she wants.

She's very inflexible about the cake that she wants.

What cake do you want?

Yellow cake from a box with chocolate frosting from a can.

That's a classic, you understand.

Allie, that's a classic.

It's a disgusting classic.

Yeah, but it's Karen's birthday.

It's not funfetti.

I understand that.

But I can make any cake.

And my cakes are so delicious that she has told me on other occasions that she would invite the cake into her marriage, and her husband's okay with it.

She would bring the cake into her marital bed?

No, I would marry the cake and have an extra spouse.

A spouse cake.

Yeah, sister cakes.

Karen, is Allie a really good baker?

She is.

Okay.

Does Allie make you cakes other times of the year?

Sometimes.

What kinds of cakes does she make?

She makes a lot of different things, chocolate torts.

She doesn't always make cakes, but she makes a lot of dinners.

I don't ever cook anything, so if there's a family event, a lot of the cooking comes from her, and she's a very good cook.

Right.

And you brought some evidence to show the court here?

I did.

Let's take a look on the screen.

Okay, this is some David Cronenbergian body horror, I believe.

Looks like a writhing mass of wounded flesh

pierced with flaming knives.

I'm just kidding.

It's a bird's eye view of a cake.

Yeah.

What kind of cake is it?

That would be the bad cake.

It's a video drum cake.

Why?

Yeah.

Oh, this is the bad cake.

This is the bad cake.

Oh, this is your yellow cake from a box, chocolate frosting from a can, shot from above.

Yes.

Okay, so, right.

And by by the way, candles, very haphazard.

Is that part of the deal?

It's an A for my sister, April, and a heart.

Oh!

I mean, sort of.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You could get a little pastry bag and do a little piping, and it'll look a lot neater.

I don't own one.

She can't do that.

No, I know, but this is the cake that you made yourself.

Yeah.

For your other sister, April.

Yes.

Right.

Okay, gotcha.

Yeah.

And your many, many sisters.

There's a lot.

How many are there?

Your many less preferred sisters.

There's five girls and one boy.

Wowie.

Yeah.

All right, so let's go to the next slide, please.

This is a dark chocolate cake with raspberries on it.

It's a chocolate torque.

A chocolate tort.

Pardon me.

Yeah, with chocolate ganache and fresh raspberries.

This is something that you made.

Yes.

Allie, for Karen?

I make it for Karen and anyone else who wants to enjoy it, including you.

It looks very good.

Nice work.

Thanks.

It does not look like a David Cronenberg horror movie.

No.

I'll say that.

Next slide, please.

Oh, there we go.

That's it.

So

the evidence is you make beautiful-looking cakes and they're delicious.

I do.

And you want to make your sister a cake for her birthday that is not the junk cake that she desires.

Right.

And do you have a birthday coming up anytime soon?

No.

Okay.

She doesn't have to be a bad person.

Did you say you have one coming up in the next year or so?

I was going to say, Allie, it seems like case closed.

Your sister has stopped aging, so it doesn't matter anymore.

That's right.

For

Karen's next birthday, whenever it may be,

what cake do you propose to make instead of her favorite?

Any other cake from scratch.

I've offered to make that cake for her from scratch, yellow cake from scratch.

Pound cake.

The exact case.

The exact cake.

Okay, now you've got a case.

Now you've got a case.

Just to make it clear.

To make an exact, right, an exact from scratch yellow cake with chocolate frosting.

This is not acceptable to you, Karen?

No.

All right.

Why do you have these two cakes here?

Okay, so that you can taste test the cakes so you can see the true

and a different,

yeah.

I have trash cake and delicious torte.

I normally do not eat sweets.

I do not have a sweet tooth.

I understand that.

I have an alcohol molar.

I know.

I accounted for that.

Oh, what is this that you're offering me?

This is Johnny Walker blue label.

Drugs!

Oh!

Thank you.

You're welcome.

It's a very kind gift, but as this is the season of giving, there you go, child.

Take this whiskey.

I'm a man with a mustache.

Take this whiskey.

Yeah.

All right.

So the cake I'm holding is chocolate torte with raspberries made by you, Adam.

And chocolate ganache.

All right, I'm sorry I forgot the ganache

again.

Maybe this is why your sister doesn't want to have you make one of these cakes.

Yeah.

I hope you're appreciating the dusting of cocoa.

There is dusting of cocoa.

Of course, there's dusting of cocoa.

Linda, how are you doing?

Good.

Yeah, okay.

And this is trash cake.

Yes, from box mix.

Legit trash cake.

Right.

Not Allie's take on trash cake.

No.

All right.

Frosting from a can.

John is inserting a fork into the trash cake.

First, I'm getting that bite ready.

Preparing a bite.

Preparing a raspberry and all.

Looks like that.

Looks like a chocolate ganache.

Now, the fact is, I'm actually,

you know, on the road, you have to be careful about what you eat.

I am eating no carbs at this time.

So I'm going to give this to Linda and she'll decide.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Linda is planking and chewing.

Yeah.

Hi, Linda.

I'm sideline reporter Jesse Thorne.

She wants the bourbon now.

Yeah.

Linda.

No,

the child can't give up his bourbon.

How dare you?

I'll buy you a drink after the show.

Don't worry.

What did you say, young man?

You don't need it?

Do you want to give it to this nice lady?

You're going through this experience.

You'll need it later.

Let the record show.

Linda expertly and swiftly planked over.

This is not furban technically, it is one of the finest blended whiskeys, and it's very delicious.

And I hope you enjoy it.

She planked over there like nature's greatest planker, the iguana.

All right, Linda, here is the trash cake.

Linda, how's that chew?

It's going.

Linda's doing her chewing now.

I want to give her an opportunity.

John, can you grab the milk for Linda?

It's a good idea.

She's going to have to

cleanse her palate here.

Is there a straw available?

It's okay.

She can drink it while planking.

Producer Hannah, could you come out here?

I've only got one hand.

I can't open a bottle of milk.

I can open it.

Okay, producer Hannah.

Producer Hannah Smith, folks.

Okay, now Linda is amazing.

Drinking the milk while planking.

NSP never stopped planking.

Jesse, would you hold the microphone to Linda so that I may ask her some questions?

Yes.

Linda, which of those two cakes did you enjoy more?

I'm the wrong person to ask.

I will always choose nasty cake.

Surprise decision from Linda.

But that wasn't the ruling.

That was just which did she enjoy more.

It's subjective.

Linda happens to be like your sister.

She loves trash cake.

This is a beautiful cake.

No one can deny this is a beautiful cake.

But Linda, in your opinion, on someone's birthday, Should they have the trash cake they want or the chocolate ganache their sister wants to force on them.

Trash cake, you want, always.

Trash cake you want, I'm afraid.

I'm sorry, Allie.

You're a very generous sister, but birthdays are birthdays after all.

I find in Karen's favor, we have a tradition in Swift Justice.

The segment cannot end until

the person planking

drinks some blended whiskey out of a small bottle.

I don't think you should be.

Can she open it?

She's opening it with her mouth like an alcoholic iguana.

Where's Bridget?

Where's Bridget?

In absentia, I find in Linda's favor.

I find in Allie's favor, that's Swift Justice.

Allie, can I stop playing King, Madam?

And the legendary Linda.

You may stop.

You may stop.

Thank you.

Let's hear it for Linda, ladies and gentlemen.

Our thanks to all of the litigants who shared their disputes with us in Durham, North Carolina.

And of course, all of the folks who came out to the show.

We had a great time.

I hope that you enjoyed listening to it.

This episode recorded by our friend Jeff Bird, native son of San Francisco, and produced by the great Hannah Smith.

Jesus Ambrosio is our editor.

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