Tried Green Tomatoes

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, tried green tomatoes.

Michael files suit against his friend and neighbor, Sam.

Michael is growing tomatoes on their shared rooftop and wants Sam to go onto the roof to admire his plants.

Sam thinks he should never have to set foot on the roof.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Another good cake to eat plain with coffee or frosted with a covering of cream cheese and powdered sugar and a little rum, if possible, is Cake Name Redacted.

This is a pleasant cake which keeps well and puzzles people who ask what kind it is.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne?

You may swear them in.

Michael and Sam, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

Yes, indeed.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he may or may not have been at one point in his life one of those people who wants to tell you about how a tomato is a fruit and not a vegetable?

Indeed, yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Thank you very much, Bailiff Jesse.

Michael and Sam, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours' favors.

The popular cultural quiz is a little different.

I'm going to tell you.

Michael and Sam, where that quote came from.

It is a direct quote.

It is from the book The Art of Eating, which is a collection of the food writings of M.

F.

K.

Fisher, one of my very favorite authors.

And I would say she defined the entwining of food and memoir, which is so popular today.

But she got there first in the 1940s with her book, How to Cook a Wolf, from which this recipe comes from.

This description of a cake.

My question to you is, I did not tell you the name of the cake.

Can you guess what cake she is describing?

It is a pleasant cake, which keeps well and puzzles people who ask what kind it is.

What is the name of the cake?

Michael, you seek justice before this court.

Why don't you go first?

Tomato upside-down cake.

Obviously, this is a case surrounding tomatoes.

I'm going to write that down in a guess book.

Tomato upside-down cake.

Now, Sam, what is your guess?

Tomato right-side-up cake.

Both, actually,

very good guesses, but both and all of them wrong.

Because the answer is: Bailiff Jesse Thorne, you want to guess what kind of cake this is?

Tomato cake.

It's tomato soup cake.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Tomato soup cake.

Three tablespoons butter or shortening, one cup sugar, one teaspoon soda, one canned tomato soup, two cups flour, one teaspoon cinnamon, one teaspoon nutmeg, ginger, cloves, mixed, one and a half cups of raisins, nuts, chopped figs, as MFK Fisher writes, what you will.

You know, while I was on the road for medallion status, my book, and then when we were on on tour, I was begging people on social media to please make spaghetti salad as described in the Hartford Whaler's Wives 1991 cookbook.

And no one made it for me except for the first guy who brought it to me in San Francisco.

No one brought me spaghetti salad on the whole tour because it's gross.

Well, now I'm challenging you, Judge John Hodgen listeners.

Go and buy the art of eating or the individual book, How to Cook a Wolf by MFK Fisher.

Get this recipe.

If you make it for your holiday board this year, take a picture of it and send it in.

We'll put it on the Instagram.

Tomato soup cake.

I want to know if it's good.

This is starting to sound to me like a personal challenge to our friend Linda Holmes from Pop Culture Happy Hour.

Baking enthusiast known to bring baked goods into National Public Radio headquarters in Washington, D.C.

I think she should be making it and serving it to Scott Simon or whatever.

Linda Holmes, if you are within the sound of our voices, please, you and all listeners, try your hand at tomato soup cake.

Let me know if it's any good, because I'm not going to make it.

I need to know what Ari Shapiro thinks of it.

All right, let's get on with the case then.

Michael, you bring the case before the court.

What is the nature of the dispute?

On the roof of our shared brownstone, me and my wife and Sam's wife have started a tomato garden in the summer that has been a lot of fun and difficult and rewarding.

And Sam refuses to go on the roof even to view the tomatoes as they're growing.

You and Sam and your respective wives all live together in one brownstone.

Two separate apartments within one brownstone.

Oh, okay.

So then this is some kind of utopian free love scheme where you all live together?

Yeah, we're a quadruple.

That's how it's supposed to work.

Ha ha, that's the voice of Sam.

Sam, where is the Brownstone?

Where do you two couples share this Brownstone?

We live in Park Slope, Brooklyn.

Oh, you're my neighbors.

Have you ever passed me on the street?

I once saw you on the street.

I tried to discreetly take a picture, but I did not get the camera out in time.

All right, I've heard everything that I need to in order to make my ruling.

I'm getting the largest gavel possible.

I find in Michael's favor.

Unless Michael, did you have you also attempted to creep shot me?

I would never.

I don't believe you.

He's creepshotted plenty of other people.

Yeah, Michael feels like a creepshotter to me too, Sam.

Now he just knows that I'm going to rule against him if he admits to it.

Bad news for Brooke Gladstone.

You're getting creep shot at by Michael every time you walk around Park Slope.

Oh, I'm always excited when I see Brooke Gladstone from on the media on the street.

But I know her.

I've been introduced to her.

It's a normal thing for me to say.

She's my neighbor.

Now I'm curious.

What was I doing when you were attempting to take pictures?

Was I in my bedroom sleeping?

No.

If I'm right that it was you, then you were walking through Grand Army Plaza.

Walking fast, like as part of my immortality project by getting some exercise, because that's the only time I get over there.

Yes, it had the look of an immortality exercise.

Good.

Well, it's working for me, and I hope it's working for you as well.

Back to your brownstone in Park Slope, Brooklyn.

The firstest of world problems.

Tomatoes on the roof.

Michael is not only growing them, but he's also growing them along with his partner, who is named...

It says Beach here.

Is that correct?

Beach, yes.

A wonderful woman.

Shout out to Beach.

And that's Sam shouting out to his sister sister wife, Beach, but his actual wife is named...

Danielle, also a wonderful woman.

I hope that was part of your vows.

Yeah.

All right.

Danielle, Beach, and Michael are having all kinds of fun up on the roof, growing tomatoes in containers, I presume, right, Michael?

Yes.

And during the summer, I presume, not now, during the cold winter months.

In the spring and summer.

Now you're just growing gourds, right?

Squashes and gourds.

We're not growing everything, but it was just last week that the first frost hit and all the plants finally died.

Oh, well, then this whole issue is moot, unless we're looking forward to next summer.

Yeah, we are litigating about next summer.

I'm glad we're getting this done and time for you to prepare.

So what's the setup?

You have two apartments in the Brownstone, is that right?

Yes.

My wife and I are on the bottom two floors and Sam and Danny are on the top two floors.

Cool.

And then there's this roof.

You sent in some evidence, some photos of the roof.

Let's take it to the rooftops and take a look.

All these photos will be available on the JudgeJohn Hodgman page at maximumfund.org, as well as on our Instagram page, which is at JudgeJohnHodgman on Instagram.

You send in some pictures of different things you've made with tomatoes that I presume you've grown, but I want to look at the rooftop itself here because this is the real point of contention.

By the way, the pizzas and the salads that you made with the tomatoes look very delicious.

They're the ones on Instagram that are going to get all the likes because they're food.

Rooftop Instagram is not quite as vibrant.

Despite the efforts of the editors of the Daily Bugle.

Well, really, The Daily Bugle has one editor, Jane Jonah Jameson.

Yeah.

He's really,

he's always getting pictures of rooftops, looking for that Spider-Man.

Well, he's got that star photographer, Peter Parker.

Yeah.

It's always crawling around on roofs for some reason.

Okay, so here is your rooftop.

Not only can I see four

containers in which you are growing tomatoes, but I can also see in the distance a slightly different kind of urban garden, which is the roof of the Barclays Center, which is where the Brooklyn Nets play basketball.

One of the fun things about the Barclays Center is its roof is covered in grass to make it look somewhat less offensive to the neighborhood.

So I can basically triangulate exactly where you live, so now I will be outside of your apartment taking photos of you when you come out.

That was our hope all along.

We have a before and after.

We have just at the beginning of planting season.

And then we have the luscious growth of these beautiful tomato plants.

Quite a few staked plants in these containers.

How many tomato plants are you planting here, Michael?

There are eight tomato plants.

So two per container.

Correct.

And when did you start doing this?

And was last summer the first summer you've done it or have you done it many times before?

Last summer was the first summer.

We had previously tried to grow cherry tomatoes in our backyard, but it doesn't get much sunlight and it wasn't that successful.

And there are rats that like to munch on the tomatoes.

So we thought that the roof might work better.

And I would say in the early spring, we started trying to figure out how it might work.

And then everything was up and assembled by maybe mid-May.

And was your experiment successful?

Did you get good tomatoes?

I've never grown anything in my life, at least not successfully.

And it was

really surpassed my expectations.

Not all.

I mean, the tomatoes varied.

Some of them were very, very good.

Some of them were fine.

But overall, yeah, I'd say it was a great success.

Tomatoes are always like that.

Tomatoes are

that way.

Some of them are good.

Some are not that good.

They're picky.

Anyway, here you have some photos of your tomatoes.

It looks like you got some heirloom varietals here, some greenish heirloom varietals.

You got some cherry tomatoes and just some straight up red tomatoes.

They look pretty good to me.

Also, you have these other ones that you have taken a photo of that are kind of green and red.

What are those guys?

I think that you're looking at Cherokee purples.

Cherokee purples, what are those?

If you're talking about the tomatoes that have like the dark greenish top and the red bottoms, they're just an heirloom variety.

They're very sweet and those I think were some of the more successful ones that came out fantastic.

What were the other names of your tomatoes?

Oh, I'm so glad that you asked.

Black creme.

We had some German Johnsons, some sungolds, some red zebras, some super sweet 100s, some husky red cherries, and some candies old yellow.

They were all delicious.

All of this seems like a terrific outcome.

And you even just acknowledged that they were delicious tomatoes.

And they look pretty good.

Of course, you can't judge a tomato by looking at it.

Its ripeness is much better determined by the amount of fragrant tomato-y smell it gives off and if it's heavy for its size and obviously a little bit soft to the touch.

That's how I pick them.

But even then, as I mentioned before, tomatoes are even then, they might not taste good.

Stipulated they were delicious.

I had them myself, though I had no entitlement to the tomatoes, and I said that up front because I didn't want to take part in the project.

They graciously made some, you know, tomatoes available to me, and they were delicious.

So, what is the nature of the dispute, Sam?

Have you ever been up on this roof?

First off, I want to say it's like we can debate some of what Mike has to say here and some of what's been discussed, but it is a general comment.

I want to say that characteristic of Mike's endless grievance complex, he has completely misdescribed the actual dispute here, which is to say, you started this podcast by saying that we have a shared rooftop on which Mike grew tomatoes and I never went on the roof.

Allow me to rephrase that.

We don't have a shared rooftop.

It's my wife and my rooftop.

Excuse me, just for a second, Sam.

Jesse Thorne, I'm just going to let this guy talk for a while and I'm going to take a 10-minute break.

You want to go for a walk?

Yes.

I'm going to go walk over to Grand Army Plaza and back and get my steps in, and then maybe I'll listen back to the tape of what Sam said.

Okay, go ahead, Sam.

Okay, we don't have a shared rooftop.

It's our rooftop.

The only way to get to this rooftop is through my wife and my apartment.

It's not that Mike was growing tomatoes, it's that it was a shared group project.

It just only feels like it's Mike's project to everyone else because that's what happens when you have a quote-unquote shared project with Mike.

And lastly, it's not that I never went up on the roof.

I went up on the roof multiple times this summer, unbidden, to bring Mike water on hot days and be social and try to provide some positivity about these damn tomatoes so that Mike would finally be happy.

Mike's immortality project is trying to enlist you in his ongoing stream of mediocre personal fan fiction, and then if he can't do so, launching on these endless grievances about it and ultimately taking you to podcast court.

So given that I've set the record straight a little bit on what we're ultimately talking about, some additional new facts that I imagine were not included in the submission when he submitted our case to this honorable court.

Number one, in May of this year, my wife and I had just had a baby.

I mean, you know, giving appropriate credit where it's due, she had had the baby.

We have a two-and-a-half-month-old.

We've never been more tired in our life.

And in a summer where New York City set like 15 heat records, Mike's plan is: let's create a project that is totally unnecessary because in Brooklyn you can't walk 10 feet without tripping over a farmer's market.

Let's create a project where we go on the exposed roof in a hundred-degree heat that is dangerous.

that was my real objection here I was worried about danger and do what will be a perfectly miserable activity which is as you said trying to grow what do you call them

or whatever tomatoes are fickle unforgiving plants which I know because my mother is a horticulturalist and she grew tomatoes my whole life so I know how disappointing they can be even if you do everything right and I've had to contribute to many failed tomato projects in the past right so it's go up on a hundred degree heat when you've never been more tired because you've been awake at three in the morning taking care of a screaming baby to go on a dangerous roof that is unsecured.

You'll see that in the pictures, the tomatoes are like two feet away from the edge where you face certain death if you slip.

And by the way, in each of the last two years, I've had like major surgery and I'm not supposed to overexert myself, including lifting heavy things, especially lifting heavy things.

So this project would be about lifting heavy things up to the roof.

And then the additional thing I would add is just that as Mike admitted when he and I were discussing this before the podcast, just based on the natural, reasonable dynamics of who lives where,

It would, you know, there would be natural inherent pressure for me to do more than my fair share of this project if I were to be a part of it, because we would be up right, you know, one floor below the roof.

Mike would be four floors below.

My wife, who was still recovering from having a baby, would, of course, you know, prefer that I go up on the roof and deal with this.

And I completely see why she would want that in that case.

And so signing on to a system where I would be directly below the tomatoes and he would be four flights of stairs away, I knew, and Mike has admitted, it wouldn't have been enough just to sign on to the tomato project.

It would be a, give him a cookie, he would ask for a glass of milk and then demand the glass of milk and then take you on podcast court about the glass of milk.

Given that Mike and I already live directly next to each other and have any number of, you know, shared projects or whatever going on at a given time, I didn't need this particular project to define my summer.

Judge Hodgman, how was your walk?

Oh, I just got back.

I walked over to Grand Army Plaza,

posed for some photos with some listeners, and, you know, the farmer's market is there, so I got some great tomatoes and I came back.

Did Sam win yet or what?

I wasn't really paying attention either.

I was appointed guardian of the Garden of Peaches of Immortality.

I ate all three of the peaches.

The first two gave me powers.

The third one gave me immortality.

Then I got drunk on heavenly wine and I broke into Sun Tzu's alchemy laboratory and stole the pills of immortality.

And of course, glug, glug, down the hatch they go.

Anyway, good news is I can't die and I have powers.

Well done.

I think your side mission was much more successful than mine.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org, and they are all your favorites.

If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to maximumfun.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The Brace Short Ribs, Made In, Made In.

The Rohan Duck Riders of Rohan, Made In, Made In.

That heritage pork chop that you love so much, you got it.

It was made in, made in.

But Made In isn't just for professional chefs.

It's for home cooks too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with Made In cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable than some of the other high-end brands.

We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

I have a little carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

And I know that she can, you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

She can use it to braise if she wants to use it to braise.

It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

And it will last a long time.

And whether it's

griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware.

I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be coming back to my beloved Made-In Entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookwear.com.

That's m-a-d-e-i-n cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Can I add one more thing, one question?

No, you may not.

No, here you rest your case, Sam.

Sam, you want to say more things?

Sam, I think that I offered you ample time to make your case.

Frankly, astonished by the ampleness of the time that you took.

Zero shame or self-consciousness.

You just went for it.

It was an incredible monologue in the history of a podcast with a lot of white dudes monologuing.

So well done.

Here's what I will say.

I did not go to the farmer's market.

I did listen to everything you had to say.

And you made some very valid and compelling points and brings in a lot of different possible cruxes for us to unpack here.

On the one hand, you point out that this is indeed an unfinished roof.

It is not a enclosed roof deck.

There is danger involved.

There are geographical sort of, I guess, architectural considerations as to how the roof is accessed and whether that is intrusive to you and the life of your new young family.

There is childhood trauma that you have woven into the story, as well as physical trauma of your mysterious surgeries.

And finally, and most interesting to me, accusations of bad faith against your roommate and ostensible friend, Michael, that he is somehow trying to work me into his fan fiction.

Sam, can you elaborate on that, please?

Oh, well, the simplest way would just be to say this dispute that he submitted to the podcast is the fifth time he's applied to have the podcast hear one of his disputes.

So now you and the audience at home gets the joy of being drafted into his fanfiction.

We are all here for Mike to have a forum for his grievance.

Do you accuse the grievance of being ginned up and fake?

Not fake because he genuinely feels these things.

You know, Mike is a feeler.

You know, we all want to give him the happiness that he so, you know, like desperately craves, but it's just you can't satisfy him.

There's always a next thing,

which, you know, it is a privilege to have Mike in your life.

He is filling your life with wonderful activities that he contributes to and takes a real leadership role in, but you just can't, you know, like sign on to the endless stream.

You have to draw some lines somewhere.

We already live directly next to each other.

You know, I got to draw the line somewhere.

John, there are two types of people: feelers and guys with something to say.

Okay, you literally live on top of Mike.

Is that correct, Sam?

Do I understand that?

Before you start talking about what a great guy Mike is, I need to interrogate this a little bit.

Because if there's one thing that annoys me more than creep shotters like Sam, it's dudes who just want to be on a podcast.

Is that you, Mike?

You've been accused of applying cases to this podcast multiple times.

Is that true?

I think four times.

This being the fourth?

Yes.

Now, I read all of the petitions to this court myself.

You email me at hodgman at maximumfund.org if you want to submit a case or go to maximumfund.org slash jjho.

I read them all, but that doesn't mean that I'm always like remembering the names as they come through.

So I did not know that you had petitioned the court multiple times, which is a real red flag for me, I must say, Mike.

One of the cardinal pieces of settled law is don't look for disputes just to get on a podcast.

What were your other disputes that you sent in?

Were they all with Sam?

No, only one was with Sam.

Tell me some of the other ones.

See if I remember them.

There was one about where my friend group from law school should go on our annual man weekend trip.

I can tell why I didn't hear that one.

You know what?

I'll settle them all for you right now.

Okay, I wanted to go to, I believe, the Catskills.

You wanted to go to the Catskills?

Yes.

Where did they want to go?

Believe Denver?

Yeah, they were correct.

Actually, you know what?

I take it back, Mike.

You were right on that one.

Colorado is better than the Catskills.

I had one miserable night in Denver, so I guess I'm biased, but I'm ruling it in your favor anyway, Mike.

Catskills.

Next.

But a special shout out to Sweet Action Ice Cream in Denver, one of the official ice cream stores of Maximum Fun.

Oh, well, I didn't know that.

Then they were right, and you're wrong, Mike.

Sorry.

Thank you for that information.

All right, Mike, next one.

Oh, this is so embarrassing at this point.

Yeah, that's how I've designed it.

To be clear, I submitted two of them at the same time about five years ago and two of them at the same time this summer.

Thank you for listening and hanging in there over the years.

This is essentially your roundabout way of getting a creepshot of me.

I suppose you could put it that way.

The way I would phrase it is that I'm a fan of the podcast, would love to be on the podcast, and any of us in our personal lives, I think, have had four valid disputes over the course of five years that they might want, you know, a higher internet power to adjudicate if it was a possibility.

So, yeah, I don't, I'm not ashamed of it.

What are the other two that haven't mentioned yet?

You submitted them five years ago at the same time.

The other from five years ago was I had placed a slap bet with a friend of mine, and I ended up with the right to slap him four times.

And I was asking you to determine that one failed slap attempt did not count against my four allotted slaps.

Yeah, no, don't hit people.

That's my answer.

no slap bets how old are you now or then

if if that's a big enough difference to matter you're probably not old enough to be on this podcast right now

I'm 34 now.

You're 29 years old.

Slap bets, I don't know what slap bets are, but if it involves you slapping someone else as part of a youthful prank among friends, I would say you're definitely too old to be doing that now.

Stop trying to regain your youth.

Your immortality project is not working if you're doing that.

Okay, next.

What's the final one?

My wife is a very good whistler and has a number of different kinds of whistles.

One whistle that she does mindlessly is kind of through her teeth.

It's this very tinny, ghostly sounding whistle.

I asked that she limit that particular kind of whistling to a...

I forget exactly what I asked for.

Wait a minute.

Didn't we hear that one?

No.

All right.

You would remember.

I actually remember that petition.

And does your wife still do this whistle?

Yes.

I'm going to withhold judgment.

Is she available now?

She's not with you.

No, she's at work, I'm afraid.

I will withhold judgment until you can send in a sample of the whistle and we will adjudicate it on a docket later on.

Wow, look at that.

You got two bites of the tomato.

You're here now and you're on the docket.

This must be the most thrilling day of your life, Mike.

It's not the least thrilling day of my life.

Thank you.

Thanks very much.

So, Sam,

Mike is full of mischief, isn't he?

He is.

It is one of the many wonderful parts of Mike.

How long have you known each other?

About a decade.

Were you involved in any slap bets?

No, I tend to stay away from the slap bets or the like sneaking up on someone to rip a piece of hair off their arm or like, you know, those sorts of things.

Wait a minute.

Is that something Mike does?

Yes.

Well,

it's not that simple.

I'm sure it's not that simple.

It never is.

What's the game where you tear a piece of hair off of someone's arm?

I will answer that.

Before I do, could I say one thing?

I'll allow it.

I'm just a little bit disturbed that Sam's been able to very quickly turn this into an interrogation of everything that's wrong with me, regardless if it has any nexus to this dispute.

Mike, Mike, you brought it upon yourself.

This is your dream.

This is what you wanted, Mike.

You wanted to be judged.

I can't blame it if Sam is bringing up compelling evidence to suggest that your mischief may be actually mean-spirited.

Let's hear it.

The game is a game that my brother and I play, both of us to the other, called Evens or Odds, where you pull hairs out of someone's, usually arm,

and

the other person has to guess that he pulled out an even number or an odd number.

And if they are right, they get to punch you.

And if they are wrong, then you get to punch them.

Wow, I've never been happier to be an only child in my life.

I have to say, at first I was like, this is actually an incredible game.

Guessing even her odd hair is being pulled off the arm.

Because it's random.

But then you lost me at the punching.

No punching or slapping.

You're 34 years old, Mike.

Hang on, Sam.

Sam?

Has Mike ever punched, slapped, or pulled hair out of your arm?

No, because I communicated early on that I wasn't going to be a part of that game.

He tried to rope you in, though, didn't he?

He did.

And I think you hit on a real point when you said, like, it's just random how many hairs come off the arm.

The point of these things, you know, like nominally, the point is to grow tomatoes or to guess the right number of hairs.

But really, it's just about him inflicting misery upon you and being indifferent to that misery or finding your misery entertaining.

Like you use the word mean-spirited.

He's not mean-spirited.

He's the least mean-spirited person alive.

He just finds your misery entertaining.

Yes, he just finds your misery entertaining.

And we're not talking about true misery, right?

Right.

But, you know, it's misery enough that you end up wanting to draw the line on whether you want to sign up to the endless game of having hair ripped off your arm by surprise.

So you get to take a guess as to whether you get punched.

Just on that armhair punching game, Mike, when was the last time you played this?

I'm sure it was this year, but I don't recall specifically.

With whom did you play it?

I only play it with my brother.

Where's your brother in this world?

Is your brother named Jeb?

No, he's named Ben, and he lives in Brooklyn.

So you have your brother in your life.

You still close?

Very.

I'm trying to ascertain if this has anything to do with trying to recruit your friend Sam into the brother position for you.

No, I don't think that it does.

I kind of think that Sam has, in an effort to make a compelling argument, really misstated my motivation for wanting him to go on the roof to look at the tomatoes.

Let's get to

what you want out of this.

I mean, obviously, you've already gotten what you want.

You hijacked my podcast for your own personal thrill.

You basically pulled hairs out of my arm and made me punch myself.

You won in that regard.

But now if I were to rule in your favor, Mike, and I might,

what would you have me rule?

I would have you rule that once a week for one minute, Sam has to go on the roof and keeping a wide berth of the edge, let me show him the tomatoes.

That is all that I want.

I want no other participation from Sam in the tomato project.

I just want him to actively admire and acknowledge the work that everyone else that lives in our shared brownstone has done to create the tomatoes that he eats.

Sam, how does Mike get up on the roof?

Does he have to use your baby's crib as a footstool to get up through a trapdoor, or what's the access point?

Oh, I wish it was as simple as using our baby's crib to get up there.

So he needs to come through the front door of our apartment, go through the first level, get to the second level, then move this big sort of like standing shelf thing we have that holds a lot of our towels and laundry and stuff.

Move that into the middle of the hallway.

We'll come back to that.

I guarantee you we will not come back to that.

You then can't get into the baby's room.

So if you have a crying baby with a poop-filled diaper and Mike's up on the roof, you can't actually get through the hallway to go change your baby.

You know what?

I stand corrected.

I'm glad we came back to that because it's even worse than I thought in terms of its intrusiveness.

Mike, is there any other place you can move that cabinet or whatever it is such that you're not essentially locking a baby in a room?

Certainly, it does not lock the baby in the room.

There is plenty of room to put the, it's a wire shelf against the wall where someone can slip by and easily get into the baby's room.

I think that's a mischaracterization.

And yet, when I look here on the petition,

Sam, you are not asking that no tomatoes be grown next summer, even though this is wildly intrusive and the project obviously drives you to distraction.

No, I want him to be happy.

And we supported the project.

We spent hundreds of dollars in support of this project.

Like I said, I went on the roof and brought him water.

There isn't really a real...

like it I don't even know what he can say I didn't actually do other than like be a part of team enthusiasm for this

but no if I have a thing I request I hope they have a wonderful you know time with the tomatoes next year I mean at a general level I hope Mike learns to accept no for an answer, but more specifically, at any time between now and next tomato season, when we are playing a board game and someone picks Mike to take a card from him, Mike cannot debate or object or pout or put any preconditions.

He just has to wordlessly lift his cards and allow you to take a card if you are otherwise allowed according to the rules of the game.

I sense you're referring to some other long-standing dispute and story that we don't have full time for.

But as punitive damages, you would like me to order that?

Yes.

I say.

All right.

Your Honor.

So Sam has gotten quite an opportunity to sort of describe my character.

And I think that there's a crucial second part of the story, which is Sam's true objection or the true motivation for not wanting to go onto the roof.

And that I think needs to be stated.

So.

No.

We started 40 minutes ago.

Now we are ending.

How much of that time has been, Sam?

You know what?

I've heard everything I need to in order to make my verdict.

I'm going to...

No, no, please, Your Honor.

Please, please.

Please, please.

I'm going up on my roof to tend to my garden.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Sam, how are you feeling about your chances?

You know, I don't want to assume any outcome here.

I really just hope Mike is happy.

I think it's the first time anyone has ever tried to win one of our cases through filibuster.

Do you have any other parliamentary procedure tricks up your sleeve?

You know, I submit to the court's judgment, and I hope that that relief I asked for about Mike not going into histrionics when someone tries to take a card from him gets ordered because that would not only be a ray of sunshine in my life, it would really help any number of our other friends who have to deal with this.

Mike, how are you feeling?

Honestly, Balaf, I'm feeling a little bit frustrated.

Not great about my chances because I don't think I got a chance to really state any kind of an argument at all.

I guess we'll see and have to throw myself on the mercy of the court.

But if the judge would be willing to hear a very short argument from me, I would be grateful.

If not, so be it.

Were you elected president and were your party to retain control of the Senate, would you eliminate the filibuster?

I certainly would.

We'll be back in just a second with Judge John Hodgman's ruling.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his ruling.

Boy, you guys have fun in your house that you share.

I mean, I think that even though I've given you both a little bit of a rough time,

I guess the part of me is a little jealous that I'm not sharing a house with my best friends and having beers and playing board games and having projects and stuff.

It seems like it's fun.

And I think you guys genuinely care about each other and like each other.

And honestly, Sam's argument, he just wants Mike to be happy.

And yet Mike seems incapable of being completely happy.

That's an interesting friend dynamic that is hard to resolve.

At first, I thought that this was clearly a situation where Mike grew up slapping and punching and pulling and hurting his brother with love.

Well, I guess his brother is probably not in his life anymore, and he's just, he's looking at the same kind of rough housy relationship he used to have with his genuine brother.

But that's not the case.

You still have your brother.

You still pull his hairs out.

You still have fun with him.

So I think that instead that this is a situation that is just intrinsic to Mike.

Mike, Mike likes projects.

Mike likes mixing it up.

Mike likes causing a stir.

I see Sam's point.

It's not that Mike

isn't capable of happiness.

He grew some tomatoes with his friends and his wife Beach and his friend Danielle.

And the outcome was great.

And those are some very happy making tomatoes.

But Mike wants to recruit Sam into this project more deeply.

Wouldn't you say that's true, Mike?

No.

Oh, boy.

All right, say what you're going to say, Mike.

Jesse, I'm going to go for a walk.

How I feel when Sam refuses to go and look at the tomatoes, which he has done all but one time, is kind of like a...

like when you're a kid and you've done a magic trick and you want your parents to acknowledge it and you can't get their intention.

But in this case, it's like the parents enjoy your franticness and enjoy your discomfort and revel in it.

I think hopefully you've gotten from Sam's tone of voice and general demeanor that he enjoys a good ribbing.

And I think that's kind of what this is.

And I can tell you that.

I don't think that's true.

I don't think that's true.

You said two things that are demonstrably false.

One, clearly Sam does not enjoy the ribbing.

Sam is asking him to stop insisting that he look at these tomatoes.

Sam is saying, I want him to be happy.

I just don't want to be involved.

And that's perfectly reasonable.

Two, you're not a kid, right?

You're not a kid.

You're 34 years old.

What's happening in your relationship, your Immortality Project game is incredible.

You're sharing a house with a friend couple as though you are just moved to New York or are still in college.

You're drinking beers and you're playing games and you're having fun and it's wonderful.

The reason I envy you is that you're 34 and can still pull this off and I'm 48 and I can't.

My immortality project, I hate to tell you this, is going to fail and so is yours.

Sam has moved on in his life.

He's got a child now.

The thing that happens when your best friends have children is that they go into separate lives, no matter how close your proximity is.

This could not be, I'm sure

there are layers within layers within layers.

I mean, with Sam's got childhood, mother tomato trauma that he's dealing with here and surgeries, and I'm sure there are all kinds of different layers that are going on and mind games that you're playing with each other and with me.

Well, this ultimately comes down to a settled law in the court of Judge John Hodgman.

People like what they like.

You like those tomatoes and you like doing them and you like driving Sam a little bit crazy about them because it's fun for you because it's like pulling out hairs from his arm.

And Sam doesn't.

Sam, oh, I'm so mad.

Sam doesn't like the tomatoes.

He doesn't like what you like.

You are only going to get more and more appropriately, maturely individuated as you get older.

And that's fine.

You should be lucky that Sam does not mind that he and your wife and his wife all go trundling up to the roof to plant tomatoes.

It may be that it's the only time he gets to feel left alone.

But in any case, no.

He goes up there whenever he wants.

He's an independent human being who has agency.

You cannot force him to go and be a part of a project that he has no interest in being a part of.

You have to let him eat some of the tomatoes because you're a friend.

Friends let friends be alone when they need to be alone.

All of that said, all of that is true.

And obviously,

obviously, I find very strongly in my heart in Sam's favor.

But in honor of you, Mike, I'm going to actually let the final outcome and the final verdict be decided

by armhair pulling out.

I'm going to pull out some armhairs.

And each of you is going to guess whether it's evens or odd.

And whoever gets it right wins.

You're going to guess first, Sam.

Okay.

okay right because obviously i'm biased in your favor this is the worst one time when i was a kid my cousin jason pulled out a hank of my hair and lit it on fire with a lighter in front of me and laughed at me it was the worst i don't think that's fun don't slap people don't pull out hairs ow

sam what's your guess odds that means you're even mike

you can win if you can guess the actual number four

Wrong and wrong.

Odds win, it was one hair.

Wasn't going for it, but it's just my hairs are very fine.

They hang in there.

So I find in Sam's favor.

Sorry, Mike, I tried to give you a chance with your own brutal form of justice, but now you get a punch.

Sam gets the win.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules out as all.

Do I get the card thing?

The prayer for relief about the board game?

No.

Ugh.

No one gets everything they want in this life.

And then we die.

There is no immortality project.

But I'm glad you are both here.

Have fun on the roof and in your house.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman takes the courtroom.

Sam, how are you feeling?

I am

feeling like this court has demonstrated its wisdom yet again.

Michael, how do you feel?

I don't feel good, Bailiff.

I appreciate the court's wisdom.

I think that with the information that was presented, the court made the right decision.

I do not believe that the court heard.

I don't believe that all the evidence was presented.

The latest grievance, right?

It's just the latest grievance.

Sam, don't you dare try and filibuster again.

Michael, Sam, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hey, Judge Sean Hodgman listeners, it is Bailiff Jesse.

I am going to say something now.

It's a little sad.

So last weekend, I got a call from one of my oldest friends in the world, and it was very bad news.

It was news that a friend of ours, my friend Evan, who had been one of my best buds since we were

two years old and through our entire childhoods, a guy who went to preschool and elementary school and high school with me, had died.

He overdosed, was found in his home, and I didn't and

no one I've talked to knew he was even using, and

it's a horrifically sad situation.

Evan was a really special guy, brilliantly gifted artist, renowned graffiti artist.

He wrote spech.

He was

also just

an absolute sweetheart joy

of a kid and a man.

I don't know.

For some reason, I've been thinking a lot about playing go bots with him when we were in preschool together.

But, you know, he also was the guy with all the weird Al Yankovic tapes.

And,

yeah, just the kind of guy that everyone

loved and was happy to see.

And he was that through his entire life.

So anyway, we wanted to do something to honor him that was productive.

So I talked to a friend who's a comic here in Los Angeles who worked in the recovery field and is in fact himself in recovery.

But he worked in recovery for many, many years.

And I asked him

who in the San Francisco Bay Area where Evan lived and where he and I grew up is absolutely without peer wonderful working with people with addictions.

And

he recommended an organization called the Homeless Youth Alliance.

They work with homeless youth, not just

ones who are addicted, but they meet everybody where they're at and help them get the pieces together that allow them to have a full and healthy and long and productive life.

They've been really kind.

They're going to put together a fund to honor Evan.

And you can find the URL at maximumfund.org slash Evan.

Bonus, you get to see a picture of me looking like a doofus as a 15-year-old goofing around with my goofy buddy Evan.

Maximum Fund is going to make a donation of $5,000 to the fund.

I just wanted it to be enough money that it really felt like it was something.

And I hope that you'll join me, even if it's $5

or $6,

$20,

whatever you might have, it goes directly to

serve homeless youth.

And it also is a testament to this man who brought a lot of light into people's lives.

I think he left the world better than he found it.

I think he did a lot with his life, but I think this is a great way to honor him as a person and

a friend and

all of that stuff.

So any amount I would really appreciate.

Go to maximumfund.org slash Evan and you'll find the link there.

And all you do is just click on that link, make your donation, and mention that it's in honor of Evan in the comment.

Thanks so much.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

Before we dispense Swift Justice, our thanks to Daniel Herrera, who named this week's episode Tried Green Tomatoes.

If you want to name a future episode, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

And in fact, I would encourage you to do so.

It's not just an option for you, it's a recommended option.

Hashtag your JudgeJohn Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H.

O.

I always love to see what people have to say about the show.

And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com to chat about this episode.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman, where you can find evidence from all of our cases as well as other fun stuff.

This week's episode was recorded by Rob O'Leary at the Cutting Room Studios.

Our episode produced by Hannah Smith, edited by Jesus Ambrosio.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment.

Carrie says, I would like an injunction against my husband.

He insists on calling medications by their generic names instead of brand names, even when they're much longer or more difficult to say.

For example,

diphenhydramine instead of Benadryl, or acetaminophen instead of Tylenol.

What say you, Judge Hodgman?

I don't know how Carrie lives with this person.

That's an incredibly annoying thing to do.

And yet, I like the fact that he knows the generic names of all the medications.

Do you think he also refers to all flora and fauna by their Latin names?

Yes.

I order him to keep this to a minimum.

And when he says diphenhydramine, he has to say it like a robot.

That's my order.

I have to go to CVS to get more diphenhydramine,

acetaminophen.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That is all.

MaximumFun.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist owned.

Audience supported.

Acida Minafen.

Acida Minafen.