This is the Sound of a Gamble

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, this is the sound of a gamble.

Maria brings the case against her sister, Leslie.

Leslie's been making bets with a friend about Maria's life events.

Maria would like her to stop.

Leslie says it's all in good fun.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Podcasting.

That's why people come here to podcast.

They want to go to a hunting lodge.

They go to Wisconsin.

They want to rest.

They go to New Orleans.

They want to podcast.

They come to Orland, Maine.

That's why it's called podcasting, Orland podcasting.

That's what we do here.

Now, you're a nice guy.

You make me laugh and everything, but our policy is we can't give you your money back.

I'm real sorry.

Say goodbye to your wife.

I got to go.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear him in.

Maria and Leslie, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he only gambles on the most dangerous game?

Yes, I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Maria and Leslie, you may be seated for an immediate summary.

Judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom.

Maria, why don't we start with you?

Oh.

Okay.

I took you by surprise there, Maria, didn't I?

Guess what?

I don't want you.

Leslie, you start.

Okay.

I wouldn't have bet that I'd be surprised.

You're surprised too.

It was going to be one of you.

You were making reference to the movie Gross Point Blank.

Gross Point Blank

is a movie starring John Cusack.

set in Gross Point, Michigan.

And I'm writing that down in the guest book.

Interesting guess.

Interesting guess.

I remember things from when I worked at a video store.

All right, go ahead now.

Maria, you've now had time to prepare.

What is your guess from the vaults of Film Fest Video in New Haven, Connecticut?

I'm just going to go with the movie Casino.

The movie Casino, because this is a gambling-related

case.

Leslie, you guessed Gross Point blank.

Is there a gambling element to that movie?

No, not that I recall.

So what was your strategy in making that particular guess?

Having not seen the movie but seen the back of its case many a time,

I don't know why you would guess that, Leslie, and I'm thinking about tossing this case out of court right now.

It just

popped into my head.

Just popped into your head?

It just popped into my head.

Yeah.

Well, it won't surprise you to learn that your guess is wrong.

But you were both in the wheelhouse because of course I was quoting the great Gary Marshall

who played the character of the casino manager in the Albert Brooks movie Lost in America where Albert Brooks' wife Julie Haggerty gambles away their life savings in an all-night roulette session and he tries to convince Gary Marshall to just give him the money back because he's a nice guy.

You ever see that movie, Jesse Thorne?

Yeah, that's a really great movie.

It's a great movie.

And of course, in the movie, Gary Marshall is not talking about podcasting.

He's talking about gambling, gambling.

And of course, he's not talking about Orland, Maine.

He's talking about Las Vegas.

But I'm talking about Orland, Maine, because this is our last day in studio here at WERU

Community Radio in Orland, Maine, the podcasting capital of Hancock County, I dare say, here with our guest producer, Joel Mann.

Hello, Joel.

Hello, Judge.

Of course, as we record this, Jesse Thorne, it is August 26th of 2019, late August.

That means the dog days of mid-autumn here in Maine, right, Joel?

Have you been raking some leaves?

They're just starting to turn.

It's cold.

Yes.

It's cold outside.

It's cold at night.

I don't know what it's like in Southern California.

Or where we find you, Leslie and Maria, in Seattle, Washington.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

In the studios of the great KUOW, which is one of my favorite radio stations to visit when I'm not in Orland, Maine.

And here we are to hear your dispute.

Maria, you bring this case to seek the Hodges justice.

What is the nature of your dispute?

The nature of my dispute is that my sister and our friend Bree

have been placing bets on staying near every aspect of my life.

And I am concerned.

I'm very concerned.

For many reasons.

Okay.

Wait a minute.

Let me clarify what's going on here.

You're saying that your sister, older or younger sister?

Older.

Your older sister, and how many of you are in this sibling pod?

We are she and I, and we also have a younger brother.

Okay, but he doesn't matter in this world.

Not at all.

Not really.

So Leslie is the oldest, and Maria, you are, in the words of the McElroy's, the middlest, right?

Yes.

Leslie has been placing bets with her friend Bree

on the outcomes of things you do, decisions that you make.

Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.

What kinds of things will they wager on?

For example, they made a bet on which shoes I would be wearing today when I arrived at the studio.

Oh, really?

Yes.

I won that bet.

Hang on, hang on, hang on.

Leslie, you got to give me some odds here.

What are my choices?

Well, the choices were Birkenstocks, or Doc Martens.

Stocks or docs.

Got it.

Okay.

And I'm going put my wager don't say don't tell me if i'm right yet sorry about this maria but this is fun i can see why your sister does this it's so fun i'm gonna say stocks or docks stocks are docks what do you think joel docks docks joel says docks jesse what do you say or do you want to make your own bet

i'm gonna say stocks on account of the weather

i'm gonna I'm gonna make it a competitive, you know, and I'm gonna go with Joel.

And I'm gonna say docks because stocks are down right now.

Docs are up.

So who was right?

Docs or stocks?

Birkenstocks was the right answer.

Let's go again.

Maria, what's another thing that Leslie bets on?

Well, more serious matters as well, including where I recently moved back to Washington from Alaska, and I was picking which city to settle in, and she had a bet on that.

Well, wait a minute.

Now, this is interesting.

First of all, why were you in Alaska?

Why was I there?

My cousin lives up there, and I moved there because he said there was lots of jobs.

This was in 2008.

There weren't many jobs here in Seattle.

So I went up there and I really liked it.

So I ended up staying for eight years.

Wow.

Where did you live in Alaska?

Juneau, the capital.

In Juneau, the capital of Alaska?

And what were you doing up there?

What was the job that you got?

Well, I taught high school for a little bit and then I ended up transitioning and working for some various nonprofits.

Wow.

And why did you decide to move back?

Leslie had a baby.

Oh, congratulations, Leslie.

Thank you.

And you had a bet going on what they were going to name the baby?

No.

I don't make bets about my sister's life.

Why?

Because she's a whole human being, not just a random decision generator?

Yeah, that was a good way to put it.

So you were moving back because your sister had a baby.

You're moving back to Washington State.

Leslie, do you live in Seattle?

I live just outside of Seattle in Kirkland, Washington.

Just outside of Seattle.

In Kirkland, Washington, right.

And obviously you chose Seattle, didn't you, Maria?

Well, I actually chose a city a little bit north of Seattle called Everett.

Oh.

Did you choose that city just to mess up Leslie's bet?

That's a good question.

That's a good question.

I did find out about her bet.

Typically, they're pretty good at keeping the bets hidden from me, but I found out about this one, and she was betting on me moving to Tacoma.

So I'm worried that it's possible her bet did influence my decision.

Were you seriously considering Tacoma and then you learned, you intercepted a text message or something between Leslie and Bree?

I figured it out.

Did you call Vegas and get the odds and you're moving to Tacoma?

Yeah.

Just to see if there was something posted?

I could tell she was wanting me to move there so badly.

There must have been something writing on it.

Leslie, were you trying to influence the outcome of the bet?

Not in the slightest.

Be careful.

This could get you banned from baseball for life.

Yeah, I'm above board.

Yeah.

What was Bree betting on?

Everett?

Bree was betting on Everett, yes.

Literally on Everett.

She was betting on Everett.

I was betting on Tacoma because Maria had expressed to me her dream was to work for the state of Washington, and that job offer was in Tacoma.

So I expected she would move to Tacoma and take her dream job.

What I wasn't factoring in, that Bree was factoring, is that Maria tends to make her life choices based on her libido.

And

she had recently started dating someone in Everett.

So Brie figured she would take the less attractive job to relocate to Everett, where she had recently started dating someone.

And she was correct.

That's not the reason.

Yeah, Brie reads the racing forms.

Brie does the research.

Clearly.

Did you move to Everett to be with a romantic partner?

Well, I mean, sometimes it's hard for me to figure out how I make my decisions.

So I won't completely say that it had nothing to do with it.

It probably had something to do with it, but it wasn't the sole reason.

Are you together with that person?

Yes, I'm still together with that person.

Well, good.

That's nice.

That's a nice outcome.

I'm sorry you lost money on it, Leslie.

You should have known your sister better.

I know.

Sounds like Bree's got the inside track.

I think she does.

She kind of knows what motivates Maria.

I tend to think logic and reason will prevail, but that's just not always the case with Maria.

Wow.

So, Leslie,

what is it about Maria's decision-making process that makes a wager so interesting to you?

How would you describe the way she makes decisions such that you and Bree have a little side hustle

betting back and forth on what Maria is going to do?

Is she unpredictable?

Is she illogical?

And if she's illogical, as you've just suggested, why can't you accommodate for that illogic and win some money here?

Aaron Powell, we rarely actually wager for cold hard cash.

It is usually, I will buy you a beer if she is doing this or that, or you know, I will get your takeout food.

But her decision-making is just interesting.

It is August, and she will wear wool socks and Doc Martens showing up to an outdoor event.

And you just can never tell what she's going to do next.

It's always fun and slightly unpredictable.

She's she's unpredictable and a little behaviorally contrarian, would uh would you say?

She can be, yeah, she's kind of quirky and fun.

Can you give me an example of not being able to know what she's going to do next beyond just the possibility she might wear boots in the summer?

Well, okay.

I think by far the funniest uh wager we had and when we were in college, Maria's a bit of a hippie in college.

And so one time we were gonna go to an an event or a party or something and she was coming over to our house.

Brie and I were roommates.

And the bet was, will she have showered or not

before coming over?

And I lost that bet.

You were betting aspirationally that she would have showered.

Yeah.

Right.

You were betting based on your hopes for her, not the cold, hard reality of who your sister is.

Correct.

As the big sister, I was hoping she was going to be good and good shape and she was ripe.

Yeah, if you had told me that your sister Maria, if I had this information that Maria was a bit of a hippie in college who didn't shower all the time, I would have lost $100,000 betting against her wearing a pair of Birkenstocks to a public radio studio.

I would have had that in the bag.

I'm pretty sure there are public radio studios where you are not allowed to be admitted unless you are wearing Birkenstocks.

That's probably true.

Joel Mann, what are you wearing on your feet these days here in Maine?

Skechers.

Skechers.

That's classic.

Classic W-E-R-U footwear.

Crocs.

Oh,

that actually is genuinely classic.

Because people in Maine, they don't care.

They don't care how they look.

They don't even want you to look at them.

People in Maine always ask themselves, WWJMD, what would Joe Montana do?

So Leslie, this was going on in college.

And based on the information I have here, you're both in your 30s.

How long has this been going on?

And what was the first bet?

Oh, that's funny you should ask.

So this has been going on for 16 years, probably, and you're about 19, I'd say.

And the original bet was, is Maria into dating women or dating men?

Is she gay?

And my college roommate Bree suspected Maria was gay.

And I was like, I don't think she's gay.

I think she's probably straight.

And so that was what set this off.

So on a more serious note, that's how we got a taste for it, though.

And it just

spiraled out of control from there.

Sure.

Taking speculation onto someone's sexual identity and the way they're going to live their lives.

This is just a parlor game for you and Bree.

Bree was there at the beginning.

Who is Bree?

My college roommate, and she's still a good friend and fellow wagerer.

I was also Bree's roommate for a time.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom for more justice.

When did you find out that your older sister and your sometime roommate Bree

were

taking odds on

your sex life?

Well, they kept it hidden for a pretty good period of time from me, probably sensing that it was a borderline inappropriate activity for them to be engaging in.

But I found out that they were betting on me.

I'd say I was about 27

when I found out, maybe a little younger than that.

If this started when you were all around 19, 18, 19, this is a full undergraduate education plus a couple of years of grad school before you found out you were but their plaything.

Yes, exactly.

And how did you find out?

I think Brie might have told me one time after she'd had maybe one beer or more than she should have that night, and she told me the whole story from the beginning.

And how did you feel?

Honestly, I was flattered.

A part of me is flattered that my life is so interesting to them that they decide to make these wagers about every little aspect of it down to my footwear.

Well, that's admirably honest, but here you are coming coming to internet court asking me to order Leslie and Bree to knock it off.

Yes.

So what changed?

So I was thinking like, you know, Leslie and Bree are my elders.

They're both very well situated in their life, and I admire who they've become.

And so when I have a big decision to make, one of the first people I call is my sister.

And then now I feel like I can't trust the advice I'm being given after the pivotal bet of the Tacoma Everett move.

Yeah.

That was the bet that really sunk this for me.

How was she influencing you, Maria?

She was just really talking up Tacoma.

She's like, it's an up-and-coming town.

They have museums.

They have the Chihuly Glass Bridge.

So she was talking up Tacoma and really like laying it on thick that that would be the best choice for me.

So why did you think Tacoma was genuinely a better place for your sister than Everett?

I thought it was a good fit for her.

It was, she wanted to express she wanted to be back in Washington State, but not right in the backyard that she grew up in necessarily.

And the job offer is really what I thought would be her draw to Tacoma.

She expressed really strongly wanting that job.

I think she recognized she made a mistake because interestingly enough, she took the other job, moved to Everett, ended up being miserable in that job, and applied for the same job she was offered in Tacoma, in Everett.

So same job, different city, but is ultimately in the job she would have taken had she moved to Tacoma originally.

So, I kind of like to think I was right.

Maria, congratulations on your job.

Are you happy with it now?

Oh, yes, I really like it.

May I ask what the job is since you dreamed since childhood of working for the state of Washington, a common childhood dream?

Yeah, that was my

goal in life.

But, yes, so the job is I am an investigator for the Office of Child Protective Services.

Whoa.

So

you are a social services investigator.

That's a heavy job.

It is.

That's a job where you are dealing with people's lives and helping as much as you can in situations that I can imagine are often kind of hard to deal with.

Yes, that's a good way to describe it.

It's pretty intense at times.

Well, yeah, this is why

we have governments to do this kind of thing.

So thank you for doing it.

You're welcome.

It sounds like you went through a lot through this move to Everett.

You had a job you were unhappy with.

That, I presume, was cleaning the inside of a well.

Yeah.

That's what it was.

Yeah.

Would you say that your decision to move to Everett and take this bad job and discover that you didn't like it and leave it and then take a job similar to the one that was offered to you in Tacoma, was that a worthwhile journey for you or a waste of your time?

I would say it was very worthwhile.

And you're with a romantic partner now that you care about, right?

And that person lives in Everett, correct?

Yes.

Yeah.

Sounds like you made the right decision all along.

I agree.

Unlike certain Leslie's I know who think that they made the right decision for you all along.

So,

Leslie, you don't bet for cash.

You and Bree are not in this for the money.

You send in some evidence.

What did you lose on this Tacoma wager?

I lost a very large burrito.

Ah, this is the photo that you sent in.

This is the evidence that you sent in.

The photo of the stakes of this bet will be available on the Judge Sean Hodgman page at maximumfund.org, and of course, our Instagram at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

It's a large burrito.

Was this burrito being held in escrow?

No, it's quite large, but no.

Okay.

Jesse Thorne, you have strong feelings about burritos, being a Bay Area native.

What questions do you have about this burrito?

This is a genuinely impressively sized burrito.

I would say my concerns about it are that it doesn't look like it's wrapped in foil and the shape is lumpy and inconsistent.

I would be concerned that it would come apart upon being eaten vertically from the end as burritos are intended to be eaten.

And what's inside the burrito, Leslie?

Looks like a beer can from this picture.

It's potatoes.

Fried potatoes.

It's fried potatoes in the burrito.

That's it?

Yes.

It's just a French fried burrito?

No, fried potatoes, beans, and some sort of magical sauce.

If you're talking about a French fried potato, Joel Mann, I think we've got a product that we can bring to the Blue Hill Fair this weekend.

And what would that be?

French fried burrito.

Sorry, I forgot.

You're from Maine.

A burrito is a kind of Tex-Mex food that involves a tortilla.

I'd show you a picture of it, but it might fruit.

It happens to be a kind of California mech food.

Thank you very much, Judge Hodgman.

California being a state on America's Pacific coast.

You're absolutely right, and I do apologize.

That is absolutely correct.

There are certainly versions of burritos that originate in Mexico, but the kind of burrito that we're looking at here is certainly a California-derived food.

And, you know, the French fry burrito is a signature of San Diego Mexican-American cuisine known as a California burrito.

I think if you're going to take a burrito to the state fair, I say you start with a San Francisco-style burrito, which this one is a corrupted version of, and then just deep fry the whole thing like a flauta.

Well, you know what we're going to do, Joel?

What's that?

We're going to take Jesse's advice.

We're going to buy some tortillas.

We're going to fill it with poutine and then deep fry that.

And take it to the fair.

Yeah, and and take it to the fair.

That way we'll marry the Bay Area with the maritime provinces of Canada and Quebec, of course, what I like to call northern New England.

And we'll make a fortune.

That's crazy cuisine.

Leslie and Maria, you guys are still here, right?

Sorry.

So, this burrito, you lost this burrito.

You had to buy this burrito and this can of beer

that you're trying to buzz market on my podcast, Fremont Summer American Pale Ale, because you wagered on a major life choice of Maria's and lost.

Maria, when you look at this photo and see what Leslie and Bree have reduced your life choices to, on a scale of one to 10, how dehumanized and degraded do you feel?

Oh, my God.

I'd probably say about 4.5.

4.75.

4.75.

Yeah.

Oh, give me a break.

You can see where I'm coming from, right?

This is not just about what she wears into the studios of KUOW.

This is also about big, big issues in her life.

Some of them are choices.

Some of them speak to who she is beyond choice as a human being.

You can appreciate why this seems a little dismissive to people who are not you or Brie, right?

Maybe a tad.

I will give you that, but just a tad.

I think you need to find the humor in life and bring a little lightness and levity to what can sometimes be heavy decisions.

And what better way to do that than put a burrito on the line?

Then make a bet with a friend about your sister and not tell her.

Exactly.

And you have to not tell her, right?

Because Maria, you could be influencing this.

You know what I mean?

You could be changing your life in order to favor Bree or Leslie.

If it were up to you, Maria, if you knew that there was an A-B decision coming up and Leslie was betting on A, would you go for B just to spite her?

Do you feel happier when she wins or loses these bets?

I feel happier when she wins.

She's not believing me, but I really wish she would win more.

Why?

That's really interesting.

So Brie is dominating this.

She's totally dominating and beating Leslie in every bet, and it makes me feel like my sister doesn't know me very well.

Not true.

I called the Birkenstocks today.

All right, the Birkenstocks, fine, but I mean, what's the record here?

How many bets have there been if you had to ballpark it?

If I had to ballpark, I'd say there's been like like maybe 20, 30, something like that.

And I would guesstimate I'm probably a winner 25 to 30% of the time.

Bree probably wins 70 to 75 percent of the time.

Leslie, I wonder if you are betting based on what you believe the outcome will be

or based on what you judgmentally think the outcome should

be.

I will tell you 100% of the time, and when I'm betting on what the outcome should be,

I lose.

When I bet what the outcome will be, like try to really think it through as if I were Maria, those are the ones I'm more often likely to win.

Maria, do you think you object to being a plaything of your sister and your friend?

Or do you think you object to your sister essentially having a secret judgment club of you?

I mean, everybody knows that Leslie is the president of the Secret Judgment Club.

Not a very secret club, then.

No, it's not very secret.

But no, I object to being the plaything and being the subject.

And I also object to only 20 bets ever being made.

You're okay, for example, with your sister suggesting to a national audience that you're always making irrational decisions.

Yeah, it doesn't surprise me that she would say that.

No, making decisions with not always based based in logic, but sometimes based on her libido.

Oh, God.

How would you characterize Leslie's decision-making process, Maria?

Predictable?

Non-libidinous?

I would say extremely predictable, but also very sound.

She makes good choices.

What's a classic Leslie

boring, predictable,

unfun,

unexciting decision?

Like, what kind of car does she drive?

Well, Well, she drives a Mercedes.

Yeah.

As far as responsible decisions go, though, she was just telling me about her,

what is it?

Your fiduciary something, your retirement deal you have going on.

It's called the 401k.

Well, no.

You were like a Roth IRA or something like that.

Oh, my gosh, Maria.

I mean, that's just one aspect.

You're younger younger in your 30s, so you're not thinking that much about your retirement, are you?

You're going to get a pension from the state of Washington?

Yeah, exactly.

This is why I got a job with the state so I could just not think about it.

Yeah.

She doesn't need her big sister,

you know, making plans for her future.

She's got a big sister state of Washington looking after her.

Yes, exactly.

So that's a pretty good decision right there.

Any outstanding wagers on the docket, as it were?

No, I don't think so.

I don't know if that's true, Judge.

Yeah, let's hear it, Maria.

What is Leslie lying about?

I could just tell in her voice.

Like, no, no, no,

I don't think so at all.

Nothing,

nothing that can be proven.

Brie

brought to my attention a bet that they have about my current relationship status and whether or not my current girlfriend and I will move to the next step, as I should say, and potentially move in together.

Wow.

Bree has let you know that this is a wager that's on the boards?

Yes, Bri.

Bree spills the beans always.

Leslie's a way better secret keeper.

Leslie,

is this or is this not true?

It's true.

I swore to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

It's true.

Until you lied.

That's exactly what you did.

I'm coming clean now.

I wasn't sure.

It's very rare that I find someone in contempt of fake internet court.

What is the nature of the bet?

She recapped it pretty well there.

I don't believe that this bet has been officially

laid out with terms.

That's why I didn't disclose it when you asked originally.

We have not aligned on what the winner will receive from the loser yet.

But there's something in the works.

Is that the only thing that's in discussion right now?

Yeah, exactly.

What position are you taking, that Maria and her girlfriend are not going to move in together or are going to move in together?

I am saying they will.

Brie is thinking they will much sooner than I think.

You're saying eventually.

Bree is saying within what time frame?

I think she might have said October, sometime in October.

Well, that's coming right up.

Yeah, I know.

The thing is, if it were up to Maria, that would be the case, I'm guessing.

Oh,

my God.

She's a bit of a U-Haul.

That's not true.

She's a bit of a what?

It's a lesbian, or term in the lesbian community.

Oh, excuse me.

I don't know it, so I apologize to you and to our listeners who may know this.

I don't know.

Tell the cis straight white male dopes in the audience and the one hosting this podcast what that means.

Well, it comes from the old joke, what does a lesbian bring on the second date?

A you-haul.

Uh-huh.

And

so Leslie's using that term

to say that I'm a you-haul lesbian.

So Bree is thinking that you're going to move in with your girlfriend on the soon side.

And Leslie is betting slash hoping that that does not happen because she wants to control your life choices.

It's exactly right.

No, I think there's another variable here and that's Maria's girlfriend.

And she doesn't strike me as someone that's, you know, handing out the key to her house to someone on the second date.

So I'm factoring in that.

If I was just basing it on my sister, I would probably be more on Bree's side of the timeline.

But I try to weigh all the facts and evidence before I engage in a wager.

Since you established a a pattern that at least some of the time you are betting on what you think Maria should do rather than what Maria is going to do, what would be your opinion about what she should do in terms of moving in with her girlfriend?

Not that it's going to affect Maria's decision in any way.

I'm just curious.

I honestly have no opinion on the matter.

This is just sheer sport.

Sure.

Honestly, you say, hmm, interesting.

Reminds me of that time before when you lied to me.

It's not exactly a lie, but yeah.

What are the possible stakes of this life choice?

We're formulating the terms of the bet right now.

It'll probably be like a six-pack.

Maybe a can of deviled ham?

Does this amount to a sit-down meal, at least?

Or are we still talking about stuff you can get out of a food truck?

Yeah, I think Brie would like it to amount to a sit-down meal, and I'm thinking I'd like it to amount to something I could pick up at a 7-Eleven.

Because you know you're going to lose.

Yeah, I'm hedging my bets.

Because you know you're going to lose.

You know, this does seem fun, Maria.

This does seem fun.

You know, I could definitely see websites springing up, a whole side market on the Judge John Hodgman Reddit

based on your life decisions.

I mean, you could be powering a whole economy here.

I guess I'm asking you, is that okay if we do that?

If we build a Maria stock market on the website, either on Reddit or on the show page, so people can lay bets down and buy shares of your life decisions?

Yeah, sure.

Go ahead.

Is there anything else I need to know before I go into my chambers to make my decision?

No, I think that the only thing I was going to say is that I do worry sometimes that these bets do influence my decisions subconsciously.

Like the observer effect, you know?

Yeah.

That theory where things that are being observed, the nature of them change due to the observation.

I'm thinking that with the gambling going on, there's a potential that maybe even subconsciously my decisions are affected.

But surely you know that Leslie's going to be observing you, even if she isn't making this bet.

She's going to be observing you and judging you no matter what.

Yes, yes.

You would have me order that they just stop it.

No,

I have come around as far as like some of the things that are outside of of my control or the funny things, but the big serious life things, that's what I would have you order.

Like I need to be able to talk to my big sister and get real advice that doesn't hinge on a burrito or bragging rights.

That's for the big stuff.

Yeah.

And Leslie, what would you have me order?

Status quo?

I think status quo, maybe a Reddit.

you know, so everyone else can get in on all the fun I'm having.

Let's just expand it out to the general public.

But if we don't want to go that far, I think we should be able to continue having the fun and excitement that is Maria gambling.

Do you have a wager on the outcome of this case currently going with Brie?

No, I suggested that, but we both were on the same side.

I couldn't.

They were so confident that they were going to win that they didn't, neither of them could make a bet.

That's too bad because as the house, I would have gotten 5% of that burrito either way.

That was my rake.

All right, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to my baccarat chamber.

Joel Mann is going to deal me cards until I have come to a decision.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Maria, how are you feeling about your chances?

Honestly, I'm not feeling that great.

I get that it's really fun to make these little wagers.

So I think I'm probably going to lose, but I've become okay with that.

Leslie, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling fairly confident.

I mean,

I think that, you know, I don't want to reduce my sister's life down to just fun and games and that I'm toying with her

like a board game or something.

But, you know, so

that's not the case at all.

But I think being able to suggest that she might do one thing or another and get something out of that

should I should be able to preserve that way of life.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Leslie, like all gamblers who are placing bets on unpredictable outcomes, you have a system.

And your system is based, at least a certain period of time, on what you hope Maria will do, as opposed to what you think she actually will do.

And your system is terrible.

And Brie is cleaning up.

Brie is a much, much, much better at this game than you are.

And I don't say this merely to shame your system and make you feel bad because you lied to me,

but also

to point out how much work is going on in what you call a simple game.

These bets are a way of expressing

your concern

about

your sister's life, your interest in her life, your optimism for her life, your love for her, as much as they are a chance to get some free truck food.

And Brie, I would imagine, is doing the same thing,

but because she is necessarily

less emotionally invested, she's winning.

Because we all know when you gamble, it's not personal.

For you, it's personal.

At least a percentage of the time such that it is messing up your win.

tally.

You wanted her to move to Tacoma because you thought she could get a better job there.

And you felt the uncertainty of moving to Everett for a relationship specifically, and losing that job opportunity was a mistake that you hoped that she would not make.

At least in this case, you bet against your sister's life choices, and you lost.

This is a fun game, but as per...

Judge John Hodgman settled law, if it's not fun for everyone, it's no fun at all.

And how can it be fun for everyone if it's a secret?

I mean, obviously, you can't keep this a secret from Maria.

That's bad, right?

Because lying is bad, as you should know by now.

And also,

Maria can't trust that she's getting straight advice from you if you're running a secret betting parlor on her life decisions.

It's got to be out in the open.

She's got to know that it's happening if it's going to happen at all.

Maria is trying to live her life and also clearly respects your point of view.

I think you need to take it seriously that even if you are able in a big sisterly way to bully Maria into believing that this is just a fun game that you and Bria are having, where the stakes are really nothing and it's just a way to pass the time.

When Maria tells you, I'm not sure I'm getting the best advice from my sister that I want, because maybe she wants to win a free burrito, that should trouble you.

That said, this is so much fun.

I really want to start a betting market.

On Maria's life's choices.

That would be so much fun.

I think, Maria, you would have fun, right?

If a certain number of Judge John Hodgman listeners were betting on your life choices?

Because the thing is, there is, interestingly, a wisdom, right, in markets.

And even if it is a market of two,

Brie and your sister,

you mentioned that you worry that you might change your decisions based on which way they're each betting, because one of them is a friend and one of them is your sister.

And yet they would still be there judging you and talking about you.

And you might be adjusting your behavior even if they didn't have a burrito on the line, right?

And the way they bet is giving you information.

It might even be giving you better advice than Leslie is able to give you herself consciously.

If Leslie is betting against you in Everett, you can make an accommodation being like, well, I know she makes very sound decisions,

but I need to follow my heart and it's my life.

And I'm going to make her lose that bet.

The betting does give you in a weird way some of the advice you might be seeking out because you kind of know the kind of advice that Leslie's always going to give.

And I bet you kind of know the kind of advice that Bree's always going to give.

So in a sense, being aware of which way they're betting is a boon to you.

So maybe I should allow it.

People should start laying their bets now.

Pause your podcast, everybody,

and turn to a friend.

Bailiff Jesse must be neutral.

because he keeps order in this court, but because this is our last time in studio with Joel Mann here at WERU in Maine for this summer,

I'm going to turn to Joel, my friend, and I'm going to ask you, what's your bet?

Am I going to allow this to go on or am I going to shut it down?

You're going to allow it.

Allow it to go on.

What's your wager, Joel?

A potato burrito.

A potato burrito at the Blue Hill Fair.

At the Blue Hill Fair.

Right.

Everyone within the sound of my voice turned to a friend and make a bet.

as to what I'm going to do.

And it will surprise some of you and delight others and frustrate no small number of you that I'm going to say, I'm going to allow this to go on, but with a very important caveat.

One of which is it's going to make it very unfun for you to play this game, Leslie.

But you must bet always on what you think will make your sister happiest.

You have to commit 100%

to your system and to your sister.

This way, Maria will know that you're being straight up with her every time.

I think you should move to Tacoma so much, I am betting that you will.

And that way Maria can have consistent

feedback from you without worrying that you have some hidden agenda because you want a free burrito.

Yeah, I think

that sounds doable.

I'm going to be buying a lot of pints of beer and burritos, but I think I could commit to that.

And you know what?

Make it a sit-down dinner.

Let's raise the stakes a little bit.

Like if you're you're betting on a person's life, if you're making them into your own private Truman show, have it be metal silverware.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Maria, are you ready for this?

Yes, I'm very ready.

Leslie, how about you?

Yeah, I think I'm ready.

Well, I wish both of you the best of luck.

We'll see how it goes.

Thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no.

Nope, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

Coming up in just a second, we'll have some swift justice.

First, thanks to Jeff Wallen for naming this week's episode.

If you want to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, follow us on Twitter.

at Hodgman and at Jesse Thorne.

You can also follow MaxFun at MaxFunHQ.

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and check out the Max Fund subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com to talk about this episode.

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Make sure to follow us there.

This week's episode, recorded by Robert Jacobs Springer at KUOW in Seattle, Washington, and by Joel Mann at WERU in Orland, Maine.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice.

Matt says, I go to a karaoke bar on Friday nights with my friend Michelle.

She loves when I sing the Humpty Dance by Digital Underground and always requests that I do it.

I do it to please her, but I think everyone else is tired of it.

Please tell her it's getting old.

Well, before I adjudicate this between Matt and Michelle, let me just say it's been a wonderful summer recording up here at WERU again with you, Joel Mann.

This is our last time together.

It's going to be chilly on the porch of the Pentagoa Denn tomorrow night when you're playing jazz with, what is it?

Night and Day Trio.

The night and day trio, the night flyers of Castine.

How far into the season are you going to keep playing that jazz?

Until October.

October, Tuesday nights at the Pentagoa Denn.

Yes.

And it's always a pleasure to be here at WERU.org.

Well, it's great to have you, Judge.

And also I can say if I had a heart, there'd be a little piece missing, but I don't.

So see you next year.

Joel, I'm going to throw this to you for a minute.

How familiar are you with The Humpty Dance by Digital Underground?

I have played that at weddings.

I remember when I I first heard it, it was one of the funniest things I've ever heard in my life.

But, you know, as I grow old and gray, I put aside childish things.

Almost with sadness, I put that song aside recently.

I heard it again, and I'm like,

I don't enjoy this anymore.

I love you, Shock G.

I love you, Humpty Hump.

But I would not care to perform that song at karaoke, nor would I care to hear it.

Jesse Thorne, right?

A Humpty Dance is an all-time classic song.

Digital Underground Underground are a truly great hip-hop group.

Shock G

is one of hip-hop's most deeply underappreciated producers and rappers.

I would say,

man, maybe look in that big karaoke book and see if they got freaks of the industry or do

what you like or same song or something.

Basically, the Humpty Dance obliterated that band.

It was such a huge drop that it overwhelmed everything else they did.

Even their appearance in the Dan Aykroyd movie, Nothing But Trouble.

No one remembers it, and I'm sure they're glad.

But basically, it comes down to this: Matt, if you're not feeling Humpty Dance anymore, if you think the room isn't feeling Humpty Dance anymore, A, you're probably right.

And B, it's none of Michelle's business.

If she can't bully you into performing karaoke, find a new song.

She can deal with it.

All right, stop what you're doing because I'm about to ruin your Friday night's karaoke.

Jesse Thorne, take us out of here.

That's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

You also shouldn't be doing baby got back try posse on Broadway.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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