Aiding and A-petting

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, eating and a petting.

Eric brings the case against his wife, Carla.

Carla thinks that Eric should show more affection to their dog, but Eric says he does most of the dog care in the home.

The dog petting can be left to another family member to fulfill.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

It would perhaps not be amiss to point out that he had always tried to be a good podcaster.

He had tried to do all the things his listeners, and most of all, his boy, had asked or expected of him.

He would have died for them, if that had been required.

He had never wanted to kill anybody.

He had been struck by something, possibly destiny or fate, or only a degenerative nerve disease disease called rabies.

Free will was not a factor.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Eric Carla, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the only dog he's ever petted was McGruff, the famous crime dog?

I do.

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

You may proceed.

What can I say?

I hang with the famous dogs.

I've hung with McGruff.

I've hung with Chompers the Corgi from Instagram.

I've hung with Linus the Corgi, also of Instagram.

And I think that's the end of my famous dog hangs that I can tell you stories about.

Eric and Carla, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Eric, why don't we start with you?

It sounds like one of those

like a Jack London novel like a Jack London novel like one of the Jack London novels Wolf Fight right yes snow train snow piercer yeah snow piercer snow piercer is the one and then the other one is like werewolf right time cop time cop yep all good guesses we'll put them in the guess book what about you Carla old yeller by Fred Gibson old Yeller by Fred Gibson.

Sounds like you had that one ready to go, Carla.

RTG, as we say.

I had it ready, but it also sounds like it.

Also sounds like old Yeller.

Well, guess what, Carla?

All guesses are wrong.

Dang it.

I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry.

I'm here in Maine at the studios of WERU in Orland, Maine, with guest producer Joel Mann.

Joel, do you have a guess?

Lassie.

Lassie?

Wrong.

All good guesses.

I mean, you guys were definitely in

the ballpark, to use a sporting phrase, because it is a novel about a dog.

But if I told you right now that it is a novel about a dog in Maine, would you be able to guess better?

Carla or Eric?

No.

What about where the red fern grows?

Is that about dogs?

But we are having a true trip through seventh grade reading list here today.

I'm really

enjoying it.

Nor is it Charlie,

aka Algernon's for,

Algernon's for flowers.

Flowers for Algernon.

What was the other one?

What were some of the other ones?

The Monkey's Paw?

What else did, what did you read in seventh grade, Jesse?

Do you remember anything?

Yeah, Time Cop.

Time Cop.

Time Cop by Jack London.

Of course, this is not seventh grade reading.

It's Cujo by Stephen King.

Cujo, the best Stephen King novel.

Because I'm here in Maine in the studios of WERU in Orland, Maine, with guest producer Joel Mann.

And of course, speaking to my bailiff, Jesse Thorne, there in Los Angeles at Max Fun Headquarters.

And you, Carla and Eric, in none other than Minnesota somewhere.

Minnesota is correct, right?

Yes.

Where in Minnesota are you?

Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Minneapolis is the biggest city in Minnesota, correct?

Correct.

But not the state capital, which of course is St.

Paul, the withered twin of the Twin Cities.

Correct.

All right.

So let's talk about your dog.

Carla, you bring the case.

Why do you seek justice from this court?

Or do you bring the case?

I'm sorry, who brings this case?

Who brings this case before me?

I actually do bring it.

I think we both sort of have cross motions, sort of.

Eric would like the status quo, and I would like

a bit different outcome than the status quo.

Cross-motions.

That's a legal term?

Yes, cross-motions for summary judgment.

Well, let's not discuss any legal terms on this podcast, please.

I know nothing about the law.

Why don't you talk first, Carla, and we'll leave it at that.

Okay, I would like Eric to give the dog pets because he refuses to pet the dog.

And we have a phrase that we use which is pets, not pats.

He occasionally will pat, just pat the dog.

But

I would like him to pet Daisy, particularly when I am traveling, which I do for work now and then.

Okay.

Daisy is the name of the dog.

Daisy.

Daisy.

That's lovely.

And I would also like Eric, what I'm going to call it, maybe fake love the dog, but maybe pretend that

he likes the dog, maybe like get Daisy to think that he loves her, because I think Eric will admit that he really affirmatively does not like Daisy, which is fine.

You know, he's entitled to his opinion.

But I think trying to show some love to Daisy is what I'm hoping.

for so Eric does not express appropriate affection for Daisy in your eyes.

And indeed, you suspect that he would affirmatively confirm that he doesn't even like Daisy.

For sure.

And I believe there is some evidence that was sent in, which was, I presume, is a photo of Daisy that I'm going to look at now.

Yes.

Oh, one.

Oh, boy.

This is a very nice looking dog.

This is a very cute dog.

Jesse Thorne, you looking at this picture of a dog?

Oh.

Yeah.

Oh.

What a beauty.

I'm going to show it to Joel Mann.

Joel Mann, you ready to look at a dog?

Okay.

That is a beautiful dog.

How can you not love that dog?

I know.

Eric, what is there to hate about Daisy?

First of all, let me just describe for folks who do not have access to a computer at this very moment.

This is a cute dog, kind of a golden color.

I'm going to guess it's some kind of a doodle because there are all kinds of adoodles now.

I don't even know if there's any dog that isn't a doodle at this point.

And if you want to take a look at this cute dog, Daisy, that he can even melt the flinty heart of a maner like Joel Mann,

you can go to the JudgeJohn Hodgman page at maximumfun.org or to our Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

But meanwhile, Eric, why do you hate this dog so much?

I don't hate the dog.

Oh, really?

Because Carla said you would affirmatively confirm that you do not like the dog.

By the way, that sounds a little bit like a legal term, Carla.

Affirmative.

What did you say?

Affirmatively confirmed?

Yes, he would agree.

Are you an attorney, Carla, or are you involved in the court system in any way?

Eric and I are both attorneys.

Oh, no.

Oh, now I feel very insecure.

Carla, you specialize in dog law.

Eric specializes in dog-hating law.

Anti-dog law.

I just realized that the cultural reference was Cujo, which was really on the nose for me.

And I totally missed an opportunity to quote Mundo de Peros, the greatest comedy sketch of all time, by Casper Hauser.

Look it up.

Look it up on the Maximum Fun page.

It's archived there.

Mundo de Perros.

You are book dog smart.

I'm street dog smart.

It's a real show, and you did a bad job.

Every now and then, when I'm driving down the road, I will just start doing that sketch back and forth, both sides.

Oh, si.

Hey, visto photo, senor.

Visto un photo de un pero.

Que dice, we, wee, weat.

Una guinea pig.

En este pero se llama guinea pig.

A comedy sketch by Casper Hauser.

Well, this is a wonderful picture of Daisy, and I've just been alerted that there are, in fact, more than one picture.

I was admiring both of you for your restraint for only sending in one adorable picture of your dog.

Normally, an evidence package in this podcast gets about 35 pictures of dogs and cats.

So let's take a look at the other ones here.

Here is Daisy in the snow.

Very adorable.

Here is Daisy as Spider-Man.

Very adorable.

John, the last thing I want to do is correct you.

That's Daisy as Spider-Dog.

Oh,

right.

Oh, here's a picture of Daisy as Snow Dog from the movie Snow Dogs.

Right.

Oh, the famous Jack London novel, Snow Dog.

Here's Daisy trapped and trying to get through what looks like a wrought iron fence.

And then finally, here's a photo of Daisy looking very, very cute.

And there's also a video and a document that we're going to discuss a little later on here.

But

I think all of this establishes pretty firmly, Eric, that this is a cute dog, that this is a good dog.

Why don't you like this dog?

Why don't you want to pet this dog?

I want to pet this dog.

Well,

okay, I guess number one is I'm not really a dog person.

We got Daisy as a gift for my daughter, and I agreed to care for Daisy and

supply Daisy's basic needs.

I get up at, I'm a 5 a.m.

walker with Daisy every day,

for her morning meal and things like that, and house training.

I remember when she was just a little puppy, I would have to sleep on the floor next to her kennel so she wouldn't keep barking.

So it's just been kind of like, Daisy, for me, feels like more work than a fun aspect of my life, I guess.

Do you affirmatively confirm, Carla, that what Eric is saying is true?

That he does all these dog-related duties, and by duties I mean poo-poos, takes care of them all?

Yes, he does a great job getting Daisy's basic needs met of feeding, and he does a lot of walks, and he tries to take her on runs.

Sometimes she's not very cooperative because she's a little on the lazy side, even though she's an awesome dog.

But he does awesome with the dog in the areas that he said.

He's great that way.

Is Daisy a kind of dog?

She's a golden doodle.

I knew she was a doodle.

I knew it.

I knew it.

I'm getting better at this.

And is she a needy dog?

Does she need a lot of affection?

Do you think she's being starved of affection because Eric isn't doing his part in the pet department?

Well, I, you know, to be fair, Daisy is on the needier side of dogs.

So if you have a need continuum, she is on the needier side.

She's kind of one of those dogs that tries to nudge you often with her nose.

She will follow you around.

She's quite needy.

Is this why you don't like her, Eric?

Because she's needy?

Because she nudges you with her nose?

I will be honest and say that is partly,

I do find it a bit annoying.

You find it a bit annoying, and so you withhold affection out of spite of the neediness.

No.

Well, this sounds like a very productive relationship that you have.

If she were a little more withholding, do you think you would meet her halfway?

I do pat her.

Well,

this is interesting because this goes back to one of the very first sentences that Carla said,

which is that she would like you to pet Daisy rather than pat her.

Carla, can you explain to me what the difference is?

Well, pat is sort of, you know, just pat, pat, pat, you know, on her head or pat, pat, pat on her back or something like that.

Okay, Daisy, pat, pat.

And a pet is, you know, like stroking and like really patting her head and petting her ears and patting your fur.

Getting in there with fingernails.

Yeah.

Yeah, working it.

Not doing like a straight flat-palm pat pat on the head two times, almost sarcastically.

Many dogs react pretty negatively to being patted relative to being patted.

Is that the case for your dog?

She's very confused at the pat because she thinks that there's like it's a precursor, like something's coming next.

Oh, pat, pat, and then the pets.

And then it's all over.

So she's looking around, trying to make sense of it all, I think.

So not only is Daisy annoying to you to the point that you withhold affection out of spite, but sometimes you give her fake sarcastic affection just to mess with her mind.

You're gaslighting Daisy, Eric.

Do you or do you not affirmatively confirm that you are gaslighting your dog?

I'm not gaslighting.

Here I come with a pet.

Nope, just kidding.

It's a pet.

Ah.

You know what people who are gaslighting love to say, Judge Hodgman?

No, what?

I'm not gaslighting.

It's true.

It's true.

You've just affirmatively confirmed that.

It's a priori after-effects evidence legal term.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Colicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The Brace Short Ribs, made in, made in.

The Rohan Duck Riders of Rohan, made in, made in.

That heritage pork chop that you love so much, you got it.

It was made in, made in.

But made in isn't just for professional chefs.

It's for home cooks too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made-in cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable than some of the other high-end brands.

We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

I have a little carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

And I know that she can...

you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

She can use it to braise if she wants to use it to braise.

It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

And it will last a long time.

And whether it's griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware, I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookwear.com.

That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom to hear more of the case.

Eric, do you acknowledge acknowledge that it is unusual when you witness a good dog to not want to pet it?

Uh,

yes.

Let's take a step back.

In your mind, is Daisy a good dog or a bad dog?

She's not bad,

and she's okay, good.

On the dog alignment scale, she's sort of chaotic neutral.

Right.

Would you say say she's bubba bubba bubba okay good

you kind of don't like this dog do you have a bad history with dogs eric no i grew up in uh kind of a rural area where um well you know some some dogs were mean there most dogs were okay but they were mostly kept outside and you know it's it was a lot different than in the urban environment right If they were kept outside in a rural environment, they kind of took care of themselves a little bit more.

Daisy has higher requirements than an outdoor rural dog.

Would you say that's true?

Yes.

And you resent this?

I wouldn't say resent, but it's hard for me to adjust my mindset, I guess.

Did you have a good relationship with those dogs you grew up with, or did you never have to pet them because you never saw them?

Because they had full lives of their own out in the world chasing rabbits and getting rabies and going on murdering sprees like Gujo.

I had an okay relationship with them.

I did not pet them very often.

They were more self-sufficient, would you say?

Yes.

Okay.

What were their names?

Did they even have names?

Did you bother to learn them?

One was named Sonia, who we just called Pup.

And the other, it seems like you're working hard to remember the name of the other dog.

There were no others on our place.

There were lots of dogs on various farms, surrounding farms, but I didn't know their names.

Where was this that you grew up?

Rural Nebraska.

Yeah, Nebraska.

Dogs are just, they're just wild creatures, right?

Rural Nebraska?

Forget it.

Dogs take care of themselves.

They don't have humans tending to their every need, giving them pets, giving them treats, going do do do do do to them, talking to them,

right?

That is true.

They're dogs.

Wild animals.

Half-wild animals, practically.

Do you like another kind of animal?

Are you more of a cat person?

Are you an iguana man?

A ball python fella?

Is there another kind of animal that you'd prefer to have or would you rather not have an animal at all?

We had a cat growing up and I liked him okay.

I liked him better than most of the dogs.

Yeah, but I'm talking about now that you're an adult, right?

Is there another kind of animal you would prefer to have in your house, or would you rather not have any animal at all?

I would rather have no animal at all.

And why would you say?

Part of this goes back to growing up again.

I had to take care of lots of different animals.

We had sheep.

We didn't have a farm, but like a small hobby farm type thing and feeding in the winter and taking care of animals.

I kind of grew to not like it.

So

I guess that carries over.

Do you have more than one child?

Yes,

an older daughter who's now just turned 11 and a son who just turned 8.

Oh, and you got Daisy for your daughter, correct?

Yes, correct.

For her golden birthday.

For her golden birthday?

Yes.

What's that?

That's where she turns the age of the day.

So the eighth of the month she turned eight.

Okay.

I never knew that that was a golden birthday.

Do you celebrate other imaginary holidays?

So

you got this golden doodle for your daughter's golden day.

Right.

And did you have to be talked into it by Carla?

No.

It was suggested that we do that, and I agreed to it.

Okay, so it was not your idea, right?

Did you put up a fight?

Did you say, ah, I don't, I just, you know,

I took care of a lot of sheep and dogs in Nebraska.

She was turning eight.

Your son was even younger.

It's like you had just gotten past the routine handling of their diapers and feces.

Now you have to handle another thing.

This is what I would have said.

Did you make any kind of fight at all?

No, for a couple reasons.

One,

my daughter loves dogs, and that's really what she wanted.

My wife loves dogs, and that's really what she wanted.

And your son, like you, is totally neutral about animals.

They mean nothing to him.

He's sort of like an animal kingdom sociopath, like you.

Like, they're there.

I don't know what they are, and I don't care about them.

My son actually loves animals, but he loves insects more than anything, I think.

Oh, it's a different psychological profile.

That's awesome.

What's his favorite insect?

Ants.

Does he have an ant farm?

He does not, no.

Well, does he have a golden birthday coming up?

He just has.

Next year.

Next year.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Next year.

Next year.

Yeah, sorry, next year.

Okay.

Get us the exact date because Jennifer Marmor, make a note.

We're going to send Carla and Eric's son the biggest ant farm available.

All right.

Carla, I'm listening to Eric.

Every now and then he says some words.

He's kind of shy, but he's a good guy.

He agreed to a dog, even though he wasn't really into it, because he knows that you love dogs, your daughter loves dogs, presumably you both love this dog.

You made a sacrifice.

I presume your daughter loves to pet this dog, right?

She does.

She loves to pet Daisy.

And you pet Daisy, right?

I do pet Daisy.

I think a fact that's worth mentioning is that I do travel a fair amount.

So there are periods of time where I'm not around to do the petting.

So, you know, a week or two could go by and I'm I'm not around and then you know our kids are here, there and everywhere and early bedtimes, etc.

So there's a lot of time for Daisy and Eric to just you know be together by themselves.

And you believe that Daisy is pet deprived during this period of time?

Yes, definitely.

She loves Eric.

He feeds her and he takes her on walks.

And so I think she looks to him as, you know, like, you know, one of her people.

So when I'm not around to do the petting, she's pet deprived and is probably confused and gets really sad.

Does your son pet the dog, or does he just cover her with moths?

He doesn't really pet the dog.

No, he's got his own thing going on.

So, really, when you're out of town and you're traveling for weeks at a time, where are you going?

Oh, you know, here, there, everywhere.

It's very suspicious sounding.

Very coy.

All right.

Never mind.

Yeah, are you in the CIA part of the American Bar Association?

Yeah, mystery lawyer.

Okay.

Got it.

She does international travel.

Did you ever see the Tom Cruise movie The Firm?

I understand what's going on.

Sometimes I go weeks at a time.

Sometimes it's just a short trip in and out day here and there.

So, you know, it's not that I've always gone weeks at a time, but there are some periods of those.

But then there are some couple days here and there.

Right.

Sometimes the phone rings at 2 o'clock in the morning.

You're gone by 3.30 a.m., not to come back for another couple of months.

That's what it is to be a time cop.

You're right.

And it's weird, too, because the time cops could arguably come back five minutes after they left.

Arguably, but they don't like to get into that argument.

They have their way of doing things.

They're pretty set in their ways.

I guess they know about time paradoxes more than I do.

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, who are you going to trust on this?

I'm going to trust the time cop.

I guess you're right.

Eric, you don't have to travel at all?

Very rarely.

You kind of stick around time cop HQ?

Yes.

Gotcha.

Time lawyers, I guess is what they are, Jesse, right?

Time attorneys?

Well,

in time, there's a very different judicial system that's sort of like the French, where there's sort of judge-prosecutor combination.

Yeah, in the United States time law system, there are two separate but equal branches.

The time cops and the time district attorneys.

These are their stories.

Why is there not a law and order time cop?

Sorry, Eric, are you still here?

Yes.

You don't travel that much.

You're stuck at home with Daisy, the needy dog.

Right.

Gotcha.

So, Carla, you sent me this document, Canine Cognition, Dog Cog.

And it has a one, two, three, four bullet points, such as research laboratories, petting versus food, petting versus praise, human-dog bonding.

Am I to take it that this document suggests that dogs like to be petted?

Yes, dogs like to be petted.

I think it's also worth pointing out that humans get a real benefit from dog petting, too.

So it would be a real reciprocal relationship with dogs getting a benefit and humans really benefiting as well.

I think Eric could benefit from pets instead of pets.

For all of the evidence that you sent me, these cute pictures, this document, and there's a video that I'm going to look at in one second.

Can you give me any evidence that either Daisy or Eric are demonstrably suffering by living together without petting.

LTWP, as they call it.

Is Daisy chewing her fur off?

Is Daisy acting out in certain ways?

Is Daisy vomiting all the time?

I don't even know what dogs do when they're angry at humans.

All I know is what cats do when they're angry at humans, and that is they vomit, they poop on your bed.

Oh, boy.

They do other sorts of bad things.

No.

Is that what's happening?

None of those things is happening.

I think a couple things.

One, Eric really complains about the dog.

He doesn't like her.

So there's sort of a running commentary about Daisy.

So I think if you just kind of just let that all go.

Okay.

Wait a minute.

Wait a minute, Carla.

Wait a minute.

Follow-up question.

What are some of the things he says about Daisy?

One, he'll shoo away the dog.

He'll say, shoo, shoo.

And sometimes he'll, you know, tell the dog to be quiet when she's kind of just doing her dog thing.

He'll say things like, oh, dog.

He doesn't really call her Daisy, really.

He just calls her dog.

Kind of like pup, right?

Right.

Eric, when you said they called Sonia pup, did you just mean you called Sonia pup?

Because you

refuse to humanize these creatures that you share your life with?

You have to remind them of their animal nature all the time.

I think that was a family decision, if I recall correctly.

Oh, you come from a family of dog haters.

Got it.

Okay, keep going, Carla.

So he will.

He was raised this way.

Bad breeding, as they say.

So say, dog, just go away.

Dog, go outside.

Dog, you know, I just gave you pads.

Dog, go, go, go, go, dog.

Dog, you just got back from a walk.

You know what?

I'm starting to hate this dog, too.

Sorry.

Like, I'm feeling this.

Eric, why do you draw the line specifically at pats and not pets?

What's easier or more comfortable to you about patting a dog than petting a dog?

Because it's just like three quick pets.

Pet, pet, pet.

Okay, and then you just send her on her way.

Have you ever tried petting her?

Like really sitting down with her next to you on the couch, watching an episode of Law and Order Time Cop Division, and just really just giving her some pets.

Have you ever tried anything like that?

There's been a couple times I've tried to pet her, her, you know, more like Carla does, and she just won't stop nosing at you and things.

So I just like go back to where I started.

How do you feel when you're petting her?

What is the feeling that you have?

I don't get anything out of it, to be honest.

I mean, you know, it's fine.

I'm just trying to

make Daisy happy a little bit anyway.

And I just want to kind of

move on from there.

Do you get happiness or satisfaction from other kinds of affectionate touching?

Yes?

Okay.

Let the record show that that yes was stated with an obvious question mark at the end.

So,

Carla,

if you feel that Daisy is being neglected when you're away, is there any other remedy that you've explored, maybe having a surrogate petter come in?

from time to time?

Is there anyone else who could offer Daisy more comfort while Eric is neglecting her while you're on the road doing your mysterious time business?

Boy, great question.

I ask good ones.

Yeah,

once in a while she goes to the doggy daycare.

I think that's more plays than pets, however.

She gets to romp around with her pals there, her dog pals.

But I don't think she gets a lot of pets there either.

So I'm not sure there's a real good option other than, like, you know, our household.

Carla, are you running for president of dogs?

Because I feel like you've got the slogans locked and loaded.

I love dogs.

This pet's not pets situation.

I mean, I'm no Griffin McElroy, but I do think dogs should vote.

Yeah,

I do think that's a winning slogan.

So if I were to rule in your favor, essentially you're saying that Daisy needs more pets.

And if he doesn't feel it, then Eric at least needs to fake it, right?

Right.

And so how many more pets per day?

Does like one solid pet sesh per afternoon or early evening or what?

Sure, that's a good start.

Well, I'm asking you what you want.

Oh.

I'm not negotiating with you, counselor.

It's your petition to this court.

What are you seeking?

I think that

when I am traveling, like one solid evening pet session with Daisy and then in the morning,

you know, if I'm not there, a solid pet session, starter on her day, give her pets in the morning, maybe pets at night, like the pet bookends of the day.

Pets in the morning, pets at lunch, pets at dinner time.

With pizza on a bagel, you can have pets anytime.

A joke that does not track at all, but even managed to make Joel Mann smile briefly here in the studio.

I was singing it in my head, Judge Hodgman.

The fact is, you can have pizza anytime without it being on a bagel.

Just have pizza anytime, anytime.

Pizza is pretty freely available in the first world.

Yeah, you can get it at pretty much anytime.

And there's definitely frozen pizzas you can get, which is what pizza on a bagel is.

Oh, never mind.

So three pet seshes?

I'd say two because

two solid pet sessions.

Two solid pet sessions.

Yep, when I'm traveling.

Uh-huh.

And what about your son?

You're not going to put him, you're not going going to force him to pet a dog against his will?

No, no.

I'd say we can give him a pass.

It's probably best.

And then when I'm home, though, maybe I can handle the petting when I'm home between my daughter and I.

But maybe I just ask then, he can maybe fake love Daisy by just like that runny commentary about his dislike for Daisy.

We can kind of phase that out.

Eric, let me ask you a question.

Would you say that you do 100%,

50%,

or a different percentage of dog-related duties.

And by duties, I mean dealing with the poop of this dog and feeding it, which is basically giving it pre-poop.

Judge Hodgman, you should go into pet food marketing.

Hodgman's pre-poop.

Oh, boy.

We have fun.

Eric, answer the question.

I'll say 66%.

Would you be willing to say 66.6%?

Yes.

Great.

Thank you very much.

There's a video here.

What is this video going to prove, Carla?

Well, you know, Eric put that video together, I think, to help his case, but I think after you watch it, you really get...

Oh, excuse me then, Carla.

Eric.

Okay, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

Go ahead.

Finish your thought.

I was going to say, I think after you finish, you think, oh my gosh, Daisy is so cute.

And Eric, what are you trying to present with this video?

The different things I do with Daisy,

obviously feeding Daisy and like rollerblading with Daisy and running with Daisy, who I think those things for her, I mean,

are probably equivalent to petting anyway.

How good at rollerblading is Daisy?

Can she skate backwards?

I've never tried putting Daisy with

rollerblades.

All right, I'm going to screen a little bit of this here.

And of course, this video will be available on the Judge Sean Hodgman page at maximumfund.org.

And I guess a preview of it will be on our Instagram at Instagram.com/slash judgejohodgman.

First thing is morning run.

I'm going to try to take the doggie for a morning run.

She usually kind of lags behind.

So we'll see what we'll do.

The records show.

First of all, in this video, Eric is saying, I'm going to take the dog for a morning run.

She usually kind of sort of lags behind.

Like, you couldn't help it, Eric, but drop a nag her there.

A little insult there.

Dogs lagging behind.

Dogs lagging behind, says Eric.

Lagging behind, as you see.

Look at Daisy not running as fast as her human.

One of these runs.

Favorite podcast.

Yo, boys.

And the meanwhile, Eric isn't even winded.

He's still talking over his run.

Mr.

Pizza.

Okay, he's making reference to Delta Skylanch.

I see what's happening here.

There's a lot of pandering.

A lot of pandering going on here, Eric.

Right.

I'm going to look at one more section here.

Food.

Nice editing, by the way.

Food.

That is one big tub of kibble you've got.

Holy moly.

And you.

There you go.

Alright.

And Eric is Eric is feeding Daisy, and here comes Daisy to eat it.

And then there's rollerblading.

I'm sure this is all very adorable.

Everyone can look at this.

Oh, it is.

It's totally adorable.

Daisy is pulling Eric on his kryptonite green rollerblades.

Boy, you guys must be pretty good time cops to be getting those 1997-era rollerblades into 2019.

Good job.

Would you get in trouble for stealing stuff from the past?

A couple of things I would observe there before I make my verdict,

which is not only is Eric feeding the dog, and not only is Daisy eating the food, but Eric is very audibly groaning every time he leans over to put the kibble into the bowl.

He's like, oh,

oh,

oh.

It's hard for me to establish whether or not that is a legit groan or a play groan for camera, but I am going to consider the rest of this video in my chambers as I come to my decision.

I'm going into my doghouse.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Eric, how are you feeling about your chances in the case?

Very poorly.

Do you fight as ferociously for your clients as you fought on your own behalf today?

Even more so.

Carla, how are you feeling about your chances?

I'm feeling pretty good.

Feeling pretty good at this point.

It's kind of cruel of you to dump this responsibility on your not-dog-liking husband, isn't it?

Oh,

he does great in the things that he does.

I'm glad to hear it.

That doesn't speak to your cruelty.

But we'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

I've just been watching this video.

It's a good one, everybody.

The thing that I'm laughing at specifically is

the video demonstration that Eric gives of what pets are compared to the video demonstration of what Carla believes pets should be.

And

first of all, Eric's pats are as

cold and distant and as sociopathic as you would think them to be, based on our conversation so far.

It is clearly without any emotion.

It is two solid pats on the rib cage and then it's over.

But I would say, Carla, that your demonstration of petting is rather intense.

You are down on the floor with Daisy,

really getting into some heavy-duty snout scratching.

It's cute.

It's cute.

But there is clearly a world that separates pets from pats in a way that I did not appreciate until I saw this video.

So thank you for sending it.

Over and over and over again, Eric has

claimed, much to, I think, our initial and understandable disbelief, that in fact he was was indifferent to these animals that

he shared his life with.

Whether this is a product of conditioning, of growing up on even a hobby farm, where taking care of animals is really much more of a kind of a routine chore rather than accepting them into your lives as sort of fake family members and pseudo-infants that you get to take care of for the rest of your lives.

Animals kind of in rural farm circumstances are just a dumb thing that you need to feed and take care of and make sure that they don't get themselves into trouble.

And And oftentimes that happens outside in the cold in a way that might make you feel a little bit less kindly dispositioned toward them than if you grew up with a beloved family dog and that you pretended was your Paniwani brother, sister, or child, right?

Or it could not be an issue of conditioning.

It could just be Eric's condition.

that he is, as I sort of jokingly said before, but I'm coming to believe may actually be true, that he is something of a canine sociopath, that he recognizes that this is another creature, that he understands has an inner life of its own that he cannot connect with particularly, that he feeds because that is what is expected of him as a member of a family and a community.

But when he attempts to show the dog affection, he neither feels happiness nor repulsion, which was a possible answer, I thought.

Having a dog's mouth up in your face all the time because it wants more affection could be an issue of annoyance and repulsion.

Time and again, Eric has said, I feel nothing.

I feel nothing.

I feel nothing.

It's hard to believe.

Dogs are cute.

Daisy, it looks like a cute dog that you want to get down on the floor and scratch its snout.

And it's also

a little hard to believe because clearly Eric and Daisy have a relationship.

If you look at this video, watching Daisy pull Eric on his time cop rollerblades, it's kind of adorable.

But I think that it's reasonable to say that when it comes to petting,

Eric is willing to do all of the chores of owning a dog, but just doesn't feel the same way about the dog that you do, Carla.

And Carla, you said something that was very interesting to me, which was, if Eric could just let go, it would be better.

By which I mean to say you were saying, you know, Eric doesn't feel affection for this dog, but if he did, it would be better.

I agree with you.

If his feelings were different,

the dog would be happier.

But, you know, one of the points of settled law and Judge John Hodgman is you can't, people like what they like.

And

as well, if they don't like something they don't like it and you know

you have affirmatively affirmed over and over again that Eric doesn't like this dog and you're ordering me

if not to make him like the dog then at least to pretend to like the dog

and this is where I reach a hard decision because if my theory is correct and Eric is emotionless about the dog

Then it would not take much for me to order him to be an android, a petting android, once a day, and force him to offer these scratches, force him to study the video of you petting and scratching and scritching and loving up Daisy, and force him to replicate those moves like a replicant, just put himself into autoplay mode and do exactly what you do for the sake of Daisy.

But this seems to me

dehumanizing.

As bad as it is that Eric is dehumanizing Daisy, who is not a human, but still is a member of your family, by refusing to call her by her name, instead calling her dog,

and gaslighting her by giving her these pats that get her excited because scritches are coming, but then they never come,

and confusing her by taking her out for runs and making her feel like maybe this creature loves me, but in fact, he just sees me as something to feed and take care of.

I can't force him to like something he doesn't like, and it doesn't seem like he likes Daisy that much, and he's not defending himself.

He's not saying, I secretly like Daisy.

He's kind of like, yeah, I don't like, I'm not going to affirmatively deconfirm that.

But I also feel it would be dehumanizing to order him to go through the motions of petting robotically.

I think Daisy seems to be a happy dog.

And whatever evidence Eric was trying to present with his video, one thing I definitely saw was they have a relationship.

It is a different relationship from the one that you have with Daisy.

It is perhaps less affectionate in a very specific way, but clearly bonded.

Eric may feel that Daisy doesn't run fast enough.

Eric may be a little harder on Daisy than you would be.

But Daisy doesn't seem to mind because Daisy's a good, dumb dog.

Since you've shown no evidence of Daisy actually emotionally suffering, and since Eric deserves to be a full human being who may just not love this dog in the same way that you do,

I unfortunately cannot order him to be like a robot and scratch the dog in the way that you want while you are away.

While you are away, Eric and the dog will play in their own weird robotic way.

It's a famous childhood rhyme that everyone knows.

Daisy's not robotic.

Daisy's just a good old dog.

I would suggest, Eric, suggest, though not order, that you try petting the dog a little bit more.

Maybe something will bloom in you.

But maybe it won't.

And at least you tried.

But insofar as my court order stands, I rule in Eric's favor.

Keep taking care of that dog.

Keep making it drag you around on rollerblades.

Maybe call it Daisy from time to time.

Maybe give it a little scratch from time to time.

See if you can bond a little bit closer, but enjoy your weird personal relationship with Daisy.

And I think Daisy will thrive.

And, you know, when you get done time copping, Carla, you will be the favorite of Daisy every time because she will get those scritches from you and you will have a different relationship with Daisy.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Carla, you were feeling good, but it sounds like you failed to present evidence that the dog was suffering because of Eric's lack of petting.

How do you feel now?

Oh, Oh, it's a blow, but I've got to accept the judge's ruling, so we'll go on from here.

I'll go and console Daisy, give her some hugs and pets, and let her know it will be all right.

Carla, do you want to send her to my house?

I can pet her and hug her.

Eric, how are you feeling?

Not the best, to be honest with you.

I feel like I need to change my ways a little bit.

you know, try to, as the judge said, make a stronger bond with Daisy and at least make a better effort.

Eric and Carla, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

Before we dispense some swift justice, our thanks to Peggy Bairdmore for naming this week's episode Aiding and Appeting.

If you would like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, you can also follow us on Twitter.

Hodgman is at Hodgman.

I am at Jesse Thorne.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets.

Hashtag JJ Ho.

I always like to look at him.

I'll go on Twitter.

I'll type in that hashtag.

I'll see what people have to say.

Yeah, me too.

The only category of people whose opinions I dismiss are people complaining about the thing that don't follow me.

If you can't be bothered to follow me, you don't get to complain to me about the show.

Everybody else, I love hearing their opinions.

Everyone who wants to complain, follow Jesse.

Yeah, I guess I did that one to myself.

Yep, you invited me.

At Judge John Hodgman on Instagram, where we have all the evidence from this week's case and other fun stuff.

And this week's episode was recorded by Jacob Maldonado at Foolproof in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Our brilliant producer is the one and only Ms.

Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment.

Yelena asks, what's the definition of middle age?

My 38-year-old spouse says we are there.

I disagree.

Hmm.

Well, you you know, Jesse, you know what I say?

Age is just a number.

Age is just a number.

Yeah.

I personally have a love of lifelong learning.

Well, learn this.

Middle age is also just a number, but it's a number that's very easy to calculate.

Figure out your age in the year you are going to die and divide that in half.

And that's your middle age.

Do you not know the year in which you're going to die?

No problem.

Then I would say probably start at 40.

I mean, any estimate of middle age, honestly, if we're talking about truly the middle of our lives, any estimate of middle age is likely to be optimistic.

We don't know what's going to happen.

We don't know what's going to happen.

Sorry to be grim.

I'm 48, and I really hope this is my middle age and not the last ninth age.

But in any case, barring any unforeseen circumstances, I think it's fair to say that traditionally and functionally, save that horrible existential life freight for after 40.

Say 41.

40 is great.

41, 42.

You're still a young person.

Let's say 45.

45.

Boom.

That's middle age.

38 is too young, right, Joel Mann?

45.

45 says Joel Mann.

I'm past it, but you still have a ways to go, Yelena.

Enjoy youth.

Enjoy your late 30s.

They're terrific.

Late 30s, early 40s, happiest time of my life.

Go ahead, Jesse Thorne.

Anything else?

No, I'm just excited not to be middle-aged.

Yay!

You're young.

I'm full of vim and vigor and love of lifelong learning.

Let's get out of here while we're still young.

Shall we, Jesse?

Submit your Judge Sean Hodgman cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJ H.

O or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

We will see you next time on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

Since you are a fan, and thank you very much for that.

Here's something you can do.

Carla, this might help.

Just play this audio.

Daisy, Daisy,

Daisy, you're a good dog.

This is Judge John Hodgman, virtual pets from Judge John Hodgman.

Don't worry, Daisy.

Eric likes you.

He likes you fine, I promise.

He likes you just fine.

Daisy.

All right, there you go.

That'll help.

It's also a good ringtone.

Maximumfun.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist-owned, audience-supported.