Misappropriation of Funs

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Payloff Jesse Thorne.

This week, misappropriation of funds.

Kenneth brings the case against his sister, Stephanie.

Their parents give them money for their birthdays every year.

Kenneth complains that Stephanie spends her birthday money on boring household items she'll be purchasing anyway.

He thinks she should use the money for something fun.

She thinks there's nothing wrong with how she spends her money.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Hey there.

Judge John Hodgman, I didn't see you come in.

Yeah, that's the way I like it.

Like

that magician guy?

What's his name?

David Copperfield?

No.

Siegfried?

No.

Roy?

That's the one.

Okay, swear him in.

Kenneth and Stephanie, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

Yeah.

Yes.

She's left-handed, though.

I can tell Kenneth is already going to be trouble, Jesse.

It's already going to be trouble.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he always spends his birthday money on hamsters?

Yes.

Yes.

You may be seated, Kenneth and Stephanie, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours' favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I came in to this fake courtroom?

Stephanie, why don't you go first?

It's got to be from a movie.

No, there are things called TV shows.

Maybe that's a hint.

Maybe that's a hint.

I prefer theater.

It could be a drama presentation.

Could be an industrial film.

Could be Shakespeare, my favorite playwright.

All right, here, I'm going to give you, and unfortunately, Kenneth, too, a hint.

Oh, dear.

It's a television sitcom

from, I'm really narrowing it down for you, the 1990s.

From the 90s.

I'll guess Seinfeld.

Seinfeld is a perfectly reasonable guess.

It's a television sitcom from the 1990s.

It's right in the wheelhouse.

So interesting.

How about that?

Are you also going to guess Seinfeld, Kenneth, are you going to guess a different one?

No, I had South Park on my mind, but I'm not sure that's even from the 90s.

It is from the 90s.

It is a very long-lived television program.

It's a perfectly valid guess.

It is wrong.

All right, here, Jesse, you see that second bit of dialogue?

Yeah.

Let's do that.

Let's give them a mega hint.

Okay.

Do you know who Guggenheim was?

Yes, Guggenheim was a financier and a philanthropist.

Wrong.

He was some guy who built an ugly museum, named it after himself.

But when people see it, they go, hey, Guggenheim.

What about me?

What about Jimmy James, huh?

He's just nothing.

A big, fat nothing.

Sir, you are hardly nothing.

Well, you're right, man.

Maybe I'm not nothing.

Of course, you're not nothing.

I'm Jimmy James.

That's right.

Jimmy James.

The one and only Jimmy James.

Yeah, the guy who's going to blow up the Guggenheim.

No, sir, no.

All right.

Who's the greatest.

We need Craig here.

Yeah, we do.

It's my favorite 1990s sitcom.

You know, and I just read quotes from this character all afternoon, and I could not stop laughing.

All guesses are wrong, but Jesse Thorne's yours will be correct because the sitcom is news radio.

News radio.

I love that show.

Created by Paul Sims, the showrunner of my favorite new sitcom, What We Do in Shadows, and starring as Jimmy James, the great Stephen Root, the star of one of my other favorite sitcoms/slash dramedies on television right now, Barry, created by Bill Hayter.

Yeah, so I was, you know, thinking about your case and about that you both get this birthday money from your dad.

And I started to think, like, I was trying to think of some piece of culture that involved like sort of stories that have an inheritance with a wacky price tag attached, like Brewster's Millions or a rich uncle or eccentric millionaire doling out money or like the Westing game.

But then I realized, as a deranged millionaire millionaire myself, once upon a time on the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, I realized the greatest deranged millionaire in the history of television is Jimmy James, the owner of the radio station and news radio.

And Stephen Root is unbelievably funny in that show.

And it's such a great show.

I was just re-watching it, Jesse.

It's such a great show.

But now we must hear this case between Kenneth and his sister, Stephanie.

And I have to say,

you know, I assume, since this is about getting birthday money, that you are both children, children, but you're grown people.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Kenneth, how old are you?

I'm 57.

Oh, I see.

Oh.

I mean, I didn't think you were children, but I thought maybe these are young, like people in their 20s.

Certainly when you couldn't name any 90s sitcoms, the problem was that the only sitcom you could think of was Bewitched.

Okay.

And Stephanie, are you of the same generation?

You betcha.

So

how old are your parents?

Are they both alive still?

Yes.

And they're going to turn 90 this year.

That's wonderful.

Yeah.

And you have another sibling or more than one sibling?

We have two siblings.

Okay.

So there's four of us altogether.

Right.

We're the middle two.

Oh, okay.

Gotcha.

And you all get...

a birthday gift every year, which is entirely appropriate, of money from

your mom and dad or primarily your dad?

Like who's the instinct from our parents?

Yeah, okay.

And you disapprove of how Stephanie spends her birthday money.

Is that correct, Kenneth?

That's correct.

It's been a long, long-standing controversy.

Well, it could be up to almost six decades of dispute that is now going to get resolved.

Yeah, the birthday money thing didn't really start until the early 2000s.

Okay.

When my parents got sick of giving us Christmas gifts and said, we're not giving you gifts anymore.

We're just going to give you this money on your birthday.

And as I remember it, spend it on something fun.

That's still very generous.

You know,

I am a young parent.

My children are 17 and 13.

And I have told them both, I mean, for years now, I've explained this to them.

Don't get your hopes up.

I'm only sending you a card, no gift, no money, once you hit 55.

After that,

all bets are off.

Yeah.

By then, you're an adult and you don't need it, but that's fine.

My dad stopped even calling me or wishing me happy birthday when I was like 15.

Look, some families, you know, are

happy.

Or let's just say less complicatedly happy than others.

So you said the early 2000s.

They changed the tradition, and the new tradition is not merely money, but I understand that there is a, and this is the part I'm having difficulty understanding from my brief here, there is a spreadsheet involved.

Do one of you want to explain what that's all about?

Sure.

So my dad's an engineer, want to be accountant.

Well, I'm an engineer, but I always wanted to be an accountant.

Yeah, his father was an accountant.

His brother's an accountant, you know, long line of accountants.

Oh, so he was the black sheep of the family.

Exactly.

Okay.

And

so he had this spreadsheet where he'd put the money on the spreadsheet so that you could get it cumulative over a couple of years and spend it on something.

My younger sister actually uses a spreadsheet like Venmo.

So there's, I looked at it the other day and there were, you know, a thousand transactions on this spreadsheet between the two of them back and forth.

So it's muddied at this point, as far as I'm concerned.

So it's like your dad is running a private bank?

Private bank, you know, it's kind of an unfunded liability situation for him.

You know, every once in a while he looks at the balance on the spreadsheet and it scares him.

He gets scared because of why?

Because he's going to have to pay it out at some point.

So, all right.

But I always take mine cash on the barrel head right away, and I go buy something and I tell them about it.

And bully for you, sir, but just so that I understand what's going on, there are four columns on the spreadsheet, one for each child, or let's say fully grown adult.

Yeah.

and every birthday for each child

your father adds some money to the running tally correct and I presume it's the same for each child or does he play favorites he's very even keel guy so same amount in fact the in-laws actually get a tab on the spreadsheet as well oh so it's not just the children but their spouses and partners also correct and are their grandchildren involved do they also get the gift of grandpa's special Excel entry?

They don't do the spreadsheet with the grandkids, but they do send the grandkids' birthday money.

Okay.

They don't say abstractly somewhere,

your granddad has a Google Doc.

Right, shared with you.

Here's a shareable link.

Little tyke, now go off and play.

I wish he'd do it as a Google Doc.

It's like in a Quattro Pro spreadsheet, whatever that is.

Wow.

He just writes it out with tabs and WordStar.

Yeah.

No, it's actually a big paper ledger that he has to blow dust off of once a year and get up on his counting house desk like Bob Cratchit and enters it in with a quill.

Well, at least you know what to get him for his birthday.

One of those translucent green visors.

And like a little arm garter, maybe.

Yeah, exactly.

All right, I gotcha.

So you can draw upon this line of credit anytime you want.

It rolls over to the next year.

It's not like Delta Diamond Medallion status.

You keep what you have not spent over the year.

Correct.

Right.

And you say to your dad, give me all the money right now.

I'm going to go buy a thing.

You spend all the money that year and you let him know that the transaction is complete.

Whereas other siblings just let it ride and let the balance grow higher and higher and higher.

And you're concerned that at some point there's going to be a run on the bank.

And your dad's concern and your dad's going to go bankrupt

but then they spend it on things like dishwashers not even cool dishwashers not the kind that like you tap on and it opens or plays music or anything just a run-of-the-mill dishwasher i'm sorry did you say that play music are you thinking sir of a speaker

well there's that but yeah there are dishwashers that play music now don't they uh you might be confusing it with a high-tech japanese toilet

well i know samsung has a fridge that plays Pandora, so that's where I got that idea from.

So Kenneth, let me just bore down on what your dispute is.

First of all, your dispute with Stephanie.

Is it that she is not taking the money that has been set aside for her and causing your father, your mutual father, consternation?

Or is she taking the money and spending it on dumb stuff that you don't think is worth it?

Yeah, I think she's not spending it in the spirit of the gift.

What would be spending in the spirit of the gift mean to you?

Something fun, frivolous.

All right.

I even have documentation of that.

Yes, I see you send in some evidence.

We're going to turn to that in a moment.

But Stephanie, are you the one who bought that junkie non-musical dishwasher?

No, I bought the junkie refrigerator.

Oh, that doesn't even have streaming Huey Lewis in the news?

It just keeps the food cold.

Refrigerator.

Play Huey Lewis in the news sports.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't hear anything, Jesse.

I guess you didn't get that one.

So, Kenneth, you did send in some evidence, which, and these are copies of electronic mails

between you and your father, who is named Stephen.

Do I have that correct here?

I'm just following along.

Yes, correct.

All right.

And

you have an email.

We have screenshots that'll be available on the Judge John Hodgman show page, as well as the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman, all one word, all smalls.

And what you write, subject, my qualified birthday money purchase.

Mom and dad, here is a picture of my new functioning iPod connected to car radio.

Thanks, Ken.

So this was, what year was this?

2011.

So yeah, that was, you were still on, we were still in iPod territory there.

I thought maybe you were an old-timey Zoom collector like my bailiff, Jesse Thorne.

What is this evidence of?

What behavior are you trying to introduce to the courtroom as the right behavior when it comes to this birthday money?

I bought something that I thought was fun for my car so that I could play play music through the interface that was already in my car.

Right.

So I had this thing installed that allowed me to do that.

So anything that plays music is okay.

Sure.

Okay.

Something fun.

Something fun.

Like a piccolo.

Yeah, if Stephanie bought herself a new piccolo,

we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

That would definitely qualify.

Because she doesn't even play the piccolo.

That'd be a wacky thing to do.

That'd be fun and frivolous.

That's like a birthday money splurge, fun and frivolous.

I'm getting it now.

I understand.

Why do you say my qualified birthday money purchase?

What does that have to do with anything?

Because I claim they don't make qualified birthday money purchases.

They make unqualified ones.

It's not experienced.

It's not qualified?

Huh.

Well, if she thinks buying a dishwasher is fun or a fridge, she could make that argument.

All right.

Well, why doesn't she make that argument, Stephanie?

Yes.

What do you buy in with your birthday money?

And how do you feel about the birthday money?

I love the birthday money.

I love the spreadsheet.

I love to let it pile up.

I love to spend it.

And

when I bought the refrigerator,

I have trouble buying purchases like that because they just kind of make me mad.

I hate having to spend money on stuff that is just going to be there same as the old one,

except working.

You know, no drawers that are broken and shelves that are missing.

Tell me the story about what happened with your refrigerator so I can get a little bit closer to your emotions on this.

It was very tired.

Right.

And I

let it limp along for a long, long, long, long, long time.

How long did you have this old refrigerator?

Oh, a long time.

20 years.

Yeah, that's a good lifespan for a fridge.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Limped along and finally decided I would get a new one.

Sure.

Decided that my birthday money would be perfect.

Now, why would your birthday money be perfect?

Because it's like found money.

It's special.

Was it fun to use that money to buy a new fridge?

Absolutely.

But it wasn't frivolous, was it?

I suppose not.

It was fairly responsible.

If you didn't buy a fridge, all of your cottage cheese would have gone bad.

Yes.

I feel the same way when I have to buy new technology.

I'm well known in the family for being...

very annoyed when I have to go buy a new phone or

a new laptop.

Because you feel like you shouldn't have to.

You already bought one.

And they go obsolete so quickly.

And Kenneth is rolling his eyes at me.

Why are you rolling your eyes, Kenneth?

This all makes sense to me.

Yeah, it's just, you know, it's kind of surly about it.

Homie, don't play that game.

Whoa.

Whoa.

Oh, there's a reference.

190 is reference you can pull.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom to hear more of the case.

So, Stephanie, these are the kinds of purchases, and they tend to be expensive purchases, that frustrate you because you feel like a thing should just work.

Even though you got 20 years out of your refrigerator, you finally decide and go, yeah, I got to replace this thing.

You needed to get out of an angry space, and a way to get out of the angry space was for you to call up your dad and say, get me some of that birthday money that I've been saving because I'm getting myself a new fridge.

And that made it easier for you.

Yep.

I would say that's exactly right.

I would also say it's exactly right, Kenneth.

What's wrong with that?

I just think she could be more imaginative than that.

Kenneth, what do you think that she would actually enjoy spending her birthday money on?

Well, she does occasionally spend it, you know, properly in an appropriate manner.

For example, she went to Vietnam recently with the whole family.

So I noticed a large disbursement from the spreadsheet for that.

So I'm fully behind that.

And that's because that's life experience, it's travel, getting rid of money and throwing it away to have no further use after the experience is over.

Exactly.

All right.

All this evidence is from you, correct?

Yeah,

I'm the digital guy in the family, so I'm combing through.

I tried to find the smoking gun from 2001.

Yeah, I know, because you're getting all the high-tech musical dishwashers and stuff.

I got you.

You got iPods in your car these days.

Yeah, it's O-tech.

The smoking gun, though, you couldn't retrieve?

You know, oftentimes my father, my parents will send us these

letters from f ⁇ ky associates, which is their fictitious company name.

And so I thought I'd find a letter announcing that he was switching over from giving us Christmas gifts to this only this birthday money.

Uh-huh.

And I found stuff like this to call him on his stuff before,

but I couldn't find it.

The best I could do was that 2017 note from him.

And then I asked him if he wanted to testify, and he wrote me that other note that you have from yesterday.

The 2001 smoking gun, first of all, is coming from a fake company?

What did you say?

Our birth announcements were all like newsletters from Associates

announcing new, you know, new products and so on.

I got you.

And the new company policy from the Associates was we are now going to give you money instead of of gifts.

Exactly.

And were there any other stipulations in that memorandum about how the money should be used?

Because that would be a smoking gun.

Yes, the way I remember it is spend it on something fun and frivolous.

Those specific words, fun and frivolous.

Yeah.

All right.

You do have a letter here from 2017 from your dad to you, Ken.

He says, on Monday after you departed, we celebrated Craig's birthday.

I presume that's one of your siblings.

As usual, we added X amount of dollars to his spreadsheet.

We're not going to say the amount.

We'll just say it's 2 million simoleons.

This is none of anyone else's business.

He was pleased to know that he now has a 3 million simoleon balance.

Your siblings all remarked at the fact that you are missing out on the fun.

This is to you, Kenneth.

Yeah.

This is your dad writing to you.

All right.

If you are anything like me and I get a check of five bazillion simoleons, I deposit it in a bank account.

It winds up being lost in the shuffle.

I have sufficient money that bazillion simoleons doesn't mean much, and I imagine you're the same.

Steph has X amount of money, and Jen, your other sibling, has Y amount of money.

When they want something frivolous or fun, they can often fund it out of their spreadsheets.

It's the fun factor, not the money itself.

They almost feel that they're getting something for nothing.

You ought to give it a try.

This is your dad writing to you in 2017.

Yep.

Indeed.

And this is evidence you supported.

Apparently, your dad thought you were a stick in the mud.

We're not on trial for being a stick in the mud.

Stephanie's on trial for being a stick in the mud and buying a dull refrigerator and not doing something fun and frivolous.

You give me this letter from your dad to you, your dad saying you should try being fun and frivolous.

Have you had a conversion experience?

Was there a time when you were not the fun, frivolous homie don't play that that you are today?

I'm not sure when that happened, Steph.

I think what Dad is saying there is not that he doesn't spend his money fun and frivolously, it's that he doesn't use the spreadsheet.

He doesn't let it go on and maybe pile up and then think of something that he wants to use it on.

He does the reverse.

He gets the money and then he sends them a note saying, this is what I used it on.

And Dad's saying, put it on the spreadsheet.

You know, let it ride a little bit.

You'll have fun with it.

Is he offering you interest?

Is there the magic of compounding interest in this?

No, sadly.

It specifically says when they want something frivolous or fun, they can often fund it out of their spreadsheet.

He's even saying that you're supposed to spend it on stuff that's fun or frivolous.

So you're establishing your father's state of mind that he expects it to be used on fun and frivolous funds.

Is that what he's saying?

Yep.

All right.

Stephanie, do you remember your father declaring that this money should be used for fun and frivolous ends?

You know, Ken's been on me for so many years for buying that fridge with my birthday money that I can't really remember that far back.

Is your contention, Stephanie, that he did not suggest you use it for fun and frivolous purposes?

Or is your contention that fun and frivolity to you means the purchase of large appliances?

The latter.

All right, so but then Kenneth, you write back to your dad after he accuses you of

not being fun and frivolous enough or keeping on the spreadsheet or whatever he's accusing you of.

There's a lot of, this is a very accusatory family.

Kenneth says, wait a minute, I always use the X amount of money to buy something I want, like Sonos speakers.

On the other hand, my sisters use it to buy refrigerators or washer dryers.

This is a clear violation, I protest.

And then your father writes to you,

words like incorrigible come to mind.

you don't know fun when it hits you dad sign dad

he's great

he's a wonderful man wonderful mom and dad and so great that you're able to still have them in your lives yep indeed and I appreciate that you are desperately trying to

desperately trying to earn your dad's approval after the stinging rebuke

by turning on your sister and saying, no, she's the one who's not fun and frivolous.

I'm the one who's fun and frivolous, daddy.

I bought a speaker.

It's a lot to unpack here.

A lot to unpack.

Is your dispute even with Stephanie?

Or is it with your dad?

It's with me.

Okay.

It's definitely with me.

Fair enough.

If you want to own that heat, go for it.

Yeah.

All right.

Have you guys brought up this dispute with your mom and dad directly?

This particular thing about about the refrigerator?

Kenneth is like a dog with a bone.

He brings it up all the time.

And what does your dad or mom say when he says she shouldn't have bought a fridge?

What did he say most recently, Ken?

If you look on the email from June 10th, this is current non-answer.

Dad doesn't normally take sides, so

if you read that email, that's sort of in a nutshell when you try to pry stuff out of him or try to get him to you know choose between his children like you would like him to yeah he won't do that

what an unfair dad that he won't obviously play favorites yeah we try to catch him in it but you know this is the last email that i'll read and it comes from yesterday

each child was to get a birthday gift of x amount recorded

There's a parenthetical here.

Each child was to get a birthday gift of X amount recorded, parentheses, to avoid postal cost, and parentheses, in a spreadsheet.

To avoid postal cost.

Ken, this was written yesterday in 2019.

Look,

you're all,

you're life hacked up there, Ken.

You've got an iPod in your car.

You've got a single Sonos speaker.

Can't you tell your dad about Cash App or PayPal at this point

should there be restraints i'm going back to the email now should there be restraints on how or when they spend that money to resolve this thorny issue i naturally turned to john stewart mill's mid-19th century definitive writings on liberty a careful reading it is only 96 pages makes clear the birthday giver should not infringe on the rights of the receiver You call that a non-answer, Ken?

Totally.

He's not taking sides.

Did you read on Liberty like your daddy told you to?

No, I haven't bought it yet.

I've been meaning to.

Maybe you should spend some of your birthday money on it then.

I will.

Excellent.

Instead of all this vaporware you're installing in your car.

iPod.

So, okay.

I think that I know how to interpret that email, even if you willfully do not.

Stephanie, you are both grown people.

Yes.

Kenneth, though, is your younger brother.

Yes, he is.

So you are the second oldest, he is the third oldest.

Correct.

You are twinned middle children,

which is a bad place to be.

What was he like as a younger brother growing up?

Was he always this way?

Yes, always.

He was the pill who,

you know, you'd be playing board games with your friends and he wanted to play along.

And at the end of the game,

you and your friend would look at each other and like, we're never doing it again.

No.

Does the word incorrigible come to mind?

Yeah, that's a good way to describe it.

What board games will you play and how would he make it hard for you?

He was just awful.

Risk.

Well, risk is the classic one.

You know, everybody cries at the end of risk.

I usually cry at the beginning.

These pieces are too small.

This geography is all wrong.

Colonialism is not a game.

Specificity is a soul of narrative.

How would he make your life miserable playing risk, for example?

Would he be a stickler for the rules?

Would he tip bored?

What would he do?

Always a stickler for the rules.

Always brutal.

Never give anybody a second chance.

You know, if you messed your turn up a little bit, no do-overs,

you know, all of that sort of behavior.

Well, I guess that fits with this.

Well, I mean,

it seems like everyone wants to get Ken to be part of the spreadsheet, right?

Yes, yes.

And I think it's even referred to somewhere in this brief as the spreadsheet game.

Is this not a different kind of board game that you are playing, siblings?

How is the spreadsheet a game that Ken is ruining?

Well, he doesn't put it on his spreadsheet.

He gets the cash every time, and he doesn't ever let it roll, you know, year to year.

Quick question.

When he gets the cash, does Ken at least pay for the postage?

Usually gets it in person

uh where do you guys live we live in berkeley but our folks live in new jersey oh so you so you'll fly out there and we fly out often they actually live in the house we grew up in this is a wonderful young adult novel i love this very much

this is a wonderful wes anderson movie

multi-generational family with with an eccentric dad who dreamed of being an accountant running a a a loan sharking operation for his own kids, or I guess not that, an illegal bank, offshore bank.

How is the spreadsheet a game, Stephanie?

Like, do you all communicate with each other about how much money you have on the spreadsheet, or is there a competition element to it?

No, no, no, nothing like that.

I think dad just means the enjoyment that my sister and I particularly get out of putting money on it, leaving money on it.

And you say your dad enjoys it too.

He likes monitoring what's going on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And is it your contention that Ken is robbing your dad of this fun by just taking the money?

Ken is robbing himself of the fun.

Well, but here's the thing.

You're two individual human beings, right?

You're grown-ups, true grown-ups.

You know, there's an argument that should be made that you shouldn't be taking money from your parents anyway because you're independent adults at this point.

An argument could be made that is a little unseemly, but I'm not making that argument because it's too adorable.

And also because your dad is obviously having so much fun with it.

He is.

But the point I was trying to make was, as adults, it should not matter to Ken what you spend your birthday money on.

It's none of his business any more than it should not matter to you what Ken spends his money on.

It's none of your business.

But if it could be demonstrated by one of you that one's behavior is offensive to the spirit of the spreadsheet game, definitively, then I would have to rule in that person's favor.

You see what I mean?

Like you saying, Ken doesn't define fun the same way I do, and Ken says Stephanie doesn't define fun the same way I do, then we don't have, we have no business talking to each other.

Let's talk about 90s sitcoms some more because that would be a better use of our time.

But if you can demonstrate that like Ken is breaking the rules of the game,

or Ken can demonstrate definitively that Stephanie, you are, that means something.

So let's let that focus our conversation going further.

Ken,

if Stephanie's playing the game wrong,

how should I order her to play the game right going forward?

I think she should spend her birthday money on things that are fun and frivolous that she wouldn't otherwise spend her money on.

Such as?

Should she consult with you first?

No.

All right, then I will uphold my bailiff's question, such as...

Well, again, I think any, well, for Stephanie, she doesn't really enjoy tech, so that's not really an option.

But, for example, if she wanted to

rent,

like she does every year,

a camp up in the Sierras and get the whole family together, that to me would be a worthy expenditure.

But she does it every year.

Sure.

I knew you were going to pick up on that.

Yeah, because I have ears.

Yeah.

So I'm very happy that you both seem to be of means, that you are able to do the things that you want to do and go to the Sierras or fly to New Jersey at a moment's notice to steal some cash from your dad or whatever it is.

That's terrific.

He mails that to me.

I don't fly there to get the money.

You make him pay that postage?

That's true.

I have to remind him sometimes.

Hey, dad, it's my birthday.

Can I answer the question you originally asked?

Sure.

I don't even remember what it is.

It was something about what would be an approved expenditure.

And it's sort of like, I don't know art, but I know what I like.

And I would say about her purchases, yeah, she can spend on whatever she wants.

I just know that buying a refrigerator doesn't qualify.

So since you don't approve of the refrigerator, what punitive damages should I apply to next birthday?

Should she not pick up the fun and frivolous pace?

Well, that's an interesting question.

Yeah, I ask it.

I think I would be happy just with an acknowledgement.

An acknowledgement of what?

That I did wrong.

That she should spend her money on more fun things, and that if she could get my little sister to admit that, too, that would be icy.

Is there anyone in this family that agrees with you, Ken?

Because I know your dad doesn't.

Your mom hasn't weighed in.

I have documentation of him agreeing with me.

You have documentation of the exact opposite

that you, for some reason, willingly submitted to us.

You nailed your own coffin closed, sir.

That's documentation of his love of the spreadsheet, not of the way the spreadsheet money is spent.

That seems to be what you believe it is, yes.

When you think about this refrigerator, because this is now some years ago that it was purchased, when you think about it just humming away there in Stephanie's presumably kitchen, completely unmusically,

just doing its job unfrivolously.

Does it gnaw at you, Ken?

Do you think about it a lot?

And what do you think about?

Well, I must think about it a lot because I don't know if you saw this, but my daughters gave me a book for my birthday that said, on the title of the book said things that annoy me.

And they spent about three hours filling it out, giggling up in the bedroom.

I'm like, what are they doing up there?

And on one of the pages was, you know, inappropriate spending a spreadsheet money.

Yeah, this is the last piece of evidence you sent in, the things that annoy Ken Book.

And your daughters wrote in, when Gabby doesn't shut up,

recycling/slash composting incorrectly and improper spending of spreadsheet money.

Do your daughters live with you?

Not anymore.

Not anymore.

I bet they're glad to recycle and compost however they like.

Yes.

Well, you live in Berkeley.

You kind of learn how to do those things.

That's true.

There's a profound culture of mutual shaming.

Keeps everybody in line.

So obviously you do think of it.

you do think about it and talk about it.

Is this filial or sorrow concern?

Do you think there's something else going on in Stephanie's life that this is representative of?

Do you think she doesn't treat herself as nicely as she should?

Nope.

Right.

It's all just good fun.

Oh, you just love bugging her.

We have a lot of this sort of thing.

This is not the only thing in our world.

No, I hope not.

Oh, I mean,

I know but one thing.

Spreadsheet money.

You have other little beefs and disputes and debates and ongoing.

Let's just say that that book that the girls gave to him is completely filled out.

It looks like it's 700 pages in this book.

Exactly.

Yeah, wow.

All right, so if I were to rule in Ken's favor, Stephanie, I would have to force you to acknowledge that you bought the wrong thing

with your birthday money.

If I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me order?

Oh, that he has to use the spreadsheet, for sure.

That he has to use the spreadsheet.

Look, he's cringing.

Why?

Yeah, what is your aversion to using the spreadsheet, Ken?

Well, at this point, it's a thing.

They enjoy the spreadsheet more because I heckle the spreadsheet.

So, you know, I think I'm adding value to the spreadsheet.

Oh, no.

We found out the real crux of this situation.

Ken is one of those hecklers who thinks he's making the show better.

is your enjoyment of the spreadsheet founded on spite because Ken hates it so much Stephanie no not at all I truly enjoy it

all right I just have two more questions you are getting enjoyment out of the spreadsheet because why

why is it more fun than getting a check from your dad because I can let it pile up I can think about how much I have what I want to spend it on save it up you know think about a big purchase Right.

It's just fun.

That's fun, is what everyone's supposed to be having, right?

And Ken, truly, your aversion to the spreadsheet is just that your siblings like it?

Partly, I have fun with the spreadsheet too.

Fun heckling the spreadsheet, fun complaining about their purchases.

Give me one of your best spreadsheet heckles.

I don't really throw that out, but you know, when my younger sister bought the dishwasher, that just put me over the edge.

Hey, your dryer doesn't play Huey Lewis.

Come on, guys.

There's a lot entwined here.

I feel like I'm still about 17 layers of family dysfunction from the crux on this one.

But I do think I've heard enough to hear my verdict.

I'm going to climb into my mid-century modern egg chair that I bought for myself, just fun and frivolous, and pull a blanket over my head and call that my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Stephanie, how are you feeling about your chances?

I think pretty good.

Pretty good.

And it would be really sweet to see him have to use the spreadsheet.

Is there something that you're saving up for on the spreadsheet, like a septic tank or

winter tires?

Well, I will say that when he mentioned the Japanese toilet, my eyes did light up.

My wife got me one of those for Christmas.

Baby.

Man alive, that is a winner.

That is a high-quality product.

Everybody goes down to my office to use that bathroom because they want to use that Japanese toilet seat.

Yep.

Kenneth, how are you feeling about your chances?

Not great.

And I have a question, if I do lose, like, what does using the spreadsheet mean, Stephanie?

We'll see what the judge says.

See, Stephanie gets it.

We'll see what the judge says when we come back in just a minute on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday Thursday on Maximum Fun.

We're taking a quick break from the case in chambers.

What have you got going on, John?

Well, Jesse, I'm about to head up to North Adams, Massachusetts to see my good friend The Wilko's perform at the Wilco Solid Sound Festival and also to host the comedy stage there with the incredible talents of Aparna Nanchirla, Rhea Butcher, and of course our mutual friends Mitch and Nick, the Dough Boys from the Dough Boys podcast, doing two shows on the afternoon of Saturday the 30th.

There's also a lot of live music from Clipping, Jonathan Richman, and all kinds of incredible fans.

And the Wilco's each have about five bands of their own that are all playing.

And it all takes place in this fantastic former electrical parts factory-turned large-scale installation art museum in a town called North Adams, Massachusetts, that is beautiful and become a real arts destination in no small part due to this museum, Mass Mocha, and the Wilco Festival that happens there only every other year.

I'm not getting paid money to say things about this festival.

I just go because I love it and I enjoy bringing comedy to the area of Western Massachusetts.

So if you want to come check it out, please do.

And otherwise, support your local Western Massachusetts businesses, the Shea Theater, and all of their fine, large-scale installation art museums.

And of course, Medallion Status is my new book, and it comes out October 15th.

I'll I'll be telling you a lot more about that as the summer gets deeper and hotter.

But if you want to just check it out a little bit, you can go pre-order it or check out the beautiful cover by Aaron Draplin at bit.ly slash medallionstatus, all one word, all capital letters.

And soon I'll be announcing tour dates for that book, but not yet.

Well, while we're waiting for that, Jesse, what's going on with you?

I'm on tour right now.

The Jordan Jesse Go Summer Boys of Summer Tour has already whisked its way through the Midwest and the Pacific Northwest.

And next week, we're headed to the East Coast.

We'll be doing shows in Brooklyn, New York City, Boston, Massachusetts, and Washington, D.C., the 26th, 27th, and 28th of June.

And on the 29th, we'll jet to Austin, Texas.

We've got special guests on every one of those shows.

In Brooklyn, we'll be joined by Ted Leo, among others.

In Boston, we'll have Stuart Wellington from the Flophouse podcast.

In Washington, D.C., Our friends will join us from NPR's pop culture happy hour.

In Austin, we'll have two of the McElroys, Rachel and Griffin from the podcast.

Wonderful.

All of those tickets are on sale right now, and you should come and enjoy yourselves at maximumfun.org slash summer boys of summer.

It's maximumfund.org slash summer boys of summer.

It's going to be a good old time.

We have,

John, we've made branded beach balls.

Yeah, of course you did.

Doing it big, John.

I'm going to go.

I want a branded beach ball.

I want a BBB.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that.

His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.

But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion.

Guess who I'm quoting?

That dude.

Yeah, that's right.

If all mankind minus one were of one opinion and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he if he had the power.

Oh boy, your dad really wants you to read some boring stuff.

So I guess I'm going to tell you what I think.

I tend to be fairly interpretationalist

in my judging.

I believe that law is a living entity,

and

someday I will be able to summon it and capture it in this bell jar.

But until then, it is out there changing and evolving.

The spirit of the law is written, but then it is adjusted according to circumstance.

But sometimes,

sometimes, we have the framer of the law speaking directly to us from history, specifically yesterday in an email from your dad,

specifically saying that according to Jon Stuart Mill and his own dome, the birthday giver should not infringe on the rights of the receiver.

It could not be more clear, Ken, that your dad's intention here is to be generous with his children

and to let them do what they will with the money.

Do what thou wilt with your birthday money shall be the whole of the law.

Alastair Crowley.

I got a lot of quotations today.

That you sent this in as evidence for your own side of the case

suggests a profound lack of self-knowledge, sir.

You are acting in a way that is in disservice to your case

without even realizing it.

What is going on, Ken?

You see these words, don't you?

You're not like a Westworld robot saying that means nothing to me.

It's clear what your dad's intentions are.

And that leads me only to conclude, since your eyes allied that sentence, right?

Since you sidestep the entire spreadsheet game, which clearly your siblings enjoy, and your dad too, since you refuse to play that game, you tip over that board

and go your own way.

That you are not acting on principle other than, and listen, children, real children, I'm going to swear here, so get ready to bleep this out.

Your only principle is as a stere.

And I appreciate that.

You're a middle child.

You're caught in the middle.

You're the youngest middle child, which is the strangest situation because in that middle child, I'm an only child.

I know I had to deal with this, but my wife is a middle child.

And I know what it's a little bit from her experience, what it's like to be caught in the middle between the eldest and the baby.

But you're both caught between the eldest and the baby, and within that cell, Stephanie is the eldest, and you're the baby, even though you are 57 and somewhat older years old.

The dynamic is still there, and may I say it's still delightful.

But there is no, you bring nothing to this court that would suggest that you are doing this other than to entertain yourself by annoying your older sister, a time-honored tradition.

And indeed, not only that, but even your coming here, I suspect, is in a kind of bad faith, maybe one you're not conscious of, because no rational person would receive that email from your dad and present it as evidence and not understand that I would rule in Stephanie's favor.

You just wanted to poke at her on a bigger stage than usual, and I gave it to you.

And I'm not sad that I did.

I'm not sad I did.

Stephanie, your refrigerator is boring.

It's not the funnest thing you could have bought.

And it is definitely the antithesis of frivolity.

That said,

Your father's own words suggest that he should have no say over what you buy.

And even though, Ken, you did produce evidence that your dad is encouraging people to be fun and frivolous,

he's mainly encouraging you and accusing you of having no fun,

not because you don't buy fun and frivolous things for yourself,

but because you seem dedicated to ruining the fun of others.

That refrigerator was purchased

not because

Stephanie

needed some extra money to make ends meet.

Money is fungible.

She could have taken her camping trip money and put it into that refrigerator.

She could have taken the refrigerator money and put it in the camping trip.

None of it matters.

None of it matters both ways.

I mean, you should be, and I trust are, grateful that you,

like me, don't have to think about financial security a lot of the time.

That's the greatest gift of all.

It's an amazing thing.

And I don't mean that to call privilege or anything, but just to acknowledge, like, that's great, you know?

And therefore, it's a great thing to be in a position and a great and happy thing to be in a position where it's like, I don't want to spend my money on this refrigerator.

Luckily, I got that spreadsheet money.

It feels better.

It's like when I use credit card points to buy Chinese food on a popular delivery service.

It's money I paid, but it feels better.

To me, that's fun and frivolous.

Everyone's definition of fun and frivolous is a little bit different.

So obviously, I'm ruling in Stephanie's favor, but I have an order for both of you.

This is an order that the court will enforce very strictly, and there will be harsh punishment if I find out that it is not followed to the letter.

It is nice that your dad gives you guys money to spend on yourselves.

I would imagine,

or I would hope, that you get gifts for each other on major holidays, birthdays, whatever, some token of appreciation, or at least a gesture of, I'm thinking of you.

But maybe this year, let's give the spreadsheet game a little twist.

Kenneth, you think she doesn't get stuff that's fun and frivolous enough?

Good.

Use your money on her this year.

And, Stephanie, you want to punish Ken for all the bother he's been for all these years?

Good.

You use your money on him.

Get him something that that he will like or dislike.

Actually, you know what?

That's not punishment.

If I allow you to get him something he will dislike, I can already hear in your laugh that you're going to do that.

And even though contentiousness is a part of your relationship, I hope and trust that love is too.

So I'm ruling in your favor, Stephanie.

But I'm going to knock you down a peg like I'm your little brother and say you have to get something that Kenneth will like.

Think about it.

Use that money to get him something he will like and appreciate and look at it from his point of view for a minute.

And Kenneth, you have to do the same thing.

That's right.

I'm

ordering you guys to get each other birthday presents.

Oh, and also give some money to charity, too.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Stephanie, how do you feel?

It'll be interesting getting him something.

What do you think he might like?

Well, you know, last year for his birthday, I washed the windows of his house and cleaned the vent on his dryer.

So I don't know how well I will top that, but I'll figure out something.

Kenneth, I would ask you how you feel, but Stephanie already won forever.

So

that was an amazing gift.

This dryer vent cleaning business.

Kenneth Stephanie, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Ken Small and John Barr for naming this week's episode Misappropriation of Funds.

If you'd like to name a future episode, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

We put out calls for submissions there.

Follow us on Twitter.

John is at Hodgman.

I'm at Jesse Thorne.

Hashtag your JudgeJohn Hodgman tweets.

Hashtag JJ Ho.

I always love to see what people are talking about.

And check out the Maximum Fund subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com if you want to chat with new friends about the episode.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff.

This week's episode was recorded by Trey Schiltz at the UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism.

Our producer, the ever-capable Ms.

Jennifer Marmor.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Are you ready, Judge Hodgman?

I am ready.

Ryan says, my wife feels that I should let my kids win at games sometimes.

I think losing builds character.

Plus, I like to win.

Oh, enjoy playing games by yourself, you meanie.

May I suggest the spreadsheet game?

or

Monopoly, the Lonely Kenneth edition?

That's a reference to our litigant from this very podcast.

No, here's the thing.

I get what you're saying.

You should play games with your kids that they can win.

That is to say, don't play chess if they are not ready to play chess.

Because that doesn't build character.

That just like, dad's beating up on me, it's sad.

If you want to play fair in the game, that's fine, but you got to play age-appropriate games with a lot of random benefit and punishment dispensed through the role of a die so that kids can play with adults like snakes and ladders or roulette.

Get a roulette wheel.

Teach your kids how to bet.

That'll even it out.

Don't rub it in their face when you hit double zero.

That's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Remember, no cases too small.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Alexa, play Huey Lewis in the news sports.

The end.

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