Making Stock, Taking Stock

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

We're in chambers this week, clearing the docket.

With me, as always, the most powerful man in podcasting, Judge John Hodgman.

Well, it's finally spring here in the chambers in Brooklyn.

We had a long, sort of bitter, cold, and raw April, and here it is, May.

It is springtime.

All of my indoor cherry blossoms have bloomed in the chambers.

Some of you may have seen on Instagram that a robin landed on the little balcony outside my window and stared at me for a while.

And as happens every spring, I have grown my little horns and my human legs have turned into goat legs and I'm playing a pan flute.

Oh, that's nice.

Yeah, let's get some justice served so that I can get back to drinking some wine from this amphora.

Every spring, I turn into one of those terrifying beaver people from the live-action version of the Lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe.

Oh,

I have not, was that in the British TV live-action version or the movie live-action version?

The British TV live-action version,

the original, like pre-CGI 1985.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't even know.

It's truly terrifying, those people dressed up as beavers.

I mean, I don't think I've ever seen it, but just your description, I can sort of picture how awful that will be.

And I'm just going to Google it right now.

Narnia, beaver, people,

TV.

Oh,

okay.

Yeah, yeah, that's scary.

That's pretty scary.

Okay.

Well,

let's dispense some justice while we're still shook.

Yeah, okay.

Let's go on.

Here's something from Jim.

I share a home with my partner, Raven.

We keep a small flock of six laying hens.

They provide us with a steady stream of delicious eggs.

They turn up sod, and they eat much of our kitchen scraps.

We occasionally end up with bits of poultry scraps.

Personally, I have no problem with our girls eating the occasional minor bits of poultry.

Raven, however, considers this to be a horrific act of chicken cannibalism.

I'd like to make clear that I do not go out of my way to give the ladies large amounts of their departed cousins, but I just can't bring myself to think it is a big deal if it happens now and then.

What say you, Judge Hodgman?

First of all, do we know if they are just keeping these six hens for eggs, or are they occasionally eating one of them?

No, I think these are chickens that they don't know.

Right.

These aren't friend chickens.

Right.

Here's what I have to say about this.

Carnivorism requires a lot of moral cognitive dissonance.

I eat meat, and I will take the heat that vegetarians and vegans may throw at me for this because I know what I'm doing.

I am killing a creature to enjoy its flesh.

It would rather not die.

It is not happy about me making this choice.

So let's face that fact, but let's also face the fact that chickens are dumb.

They are as dumb as F.

And by F, I mean foul, F-O-W-L, foul.

They don't know what they're eating.

They don't care what they're eating.

They don't understand the human taboo against cannibalism.

And if they did, they would do it anyway.

Chickens peck each other already.

That's how they establish establish a pecking order.

They're dumb and they're cruel, but they're also loving and lovable and wonderfully weird and definitely not human, which is to say that they are honest where Raven is not.

Yes.

Yes, you provide them with a loving home and they are your companions, but also recognize By the same actions, you are keeping another creature in a cage, enslaving it, and stealing its eggs because it is too weak and dumb to stop you.

Chickens don't deserve the burden of any human taboos.

Let the chickens be chicken, which is to say chicken-eating monsters just like you are.

Chicken-eating monster.

Do you like chicken?

I like chicken fine.

I do have one chicken hot take.

Mm-hmm.

Why would anyone prefer a chicken breast to a chicken thigh?

Why is chicken breast fancier than chicken thigh when it tastes worse and is worse overall in every category?

One time, my dad and my son, a few years ago, and I were having lunch at the Hope and Olive Restaurant in Greenfield, Massachusetts.

It was a really good restaurant.

And

they had a special that included chicken thighs prepared in some way.

And my son ordered it.

And my dad said,

you know, grandson's name, I have decided that I like chicken thighs more than I like chicken breasts.

I was like, this is some of the quality weird dad conversation that I am paying for.

That was great.

But he was right.

He was right.

They're better.

I feel like chicken breasts just were invented in 1989 and became famous by winning a reality competition show called Like

The Search for America's Least Pleasurable Protein.

You're right about that timing because they have the burnish of health upon them and sort of like lightness, and they're kind of like the snack wells of proteins.

Yes, I agree with you.

No good.

I have a chicken-related buzz marketing I'd like to offer.

Sure.

Well, Judge John Hodgman listeners know that I'm an international influencer on the subject of kitchen appliances.

Yep.

Having already popularized high-end toaster ovens across this great nation for their monumental utility that until recently I had no idea of.

It was only a few years that I've been using one, and it's completely transformed my cooking life.

I have a product that is significantly less expensive, but will have a similar impact on the lives of egg lovers in the Judge John Hodgman audience.

Are you ready for this, John?

I am prepared.

This comes to me via my colleague Casey O'Brien, who's the producer of Switchblade Sisters and Hushacha, Maximum Funds movie podcasts.

And also

a room I rented in Marin County when I was visiting my in-laws that had one in it.

It is called a Dash Rapid Egg Cooker.

It's a little plastic appliance that costs $15.99

and produces perfect hard-boiled eggs so quickly and easily that it seems like a genuine miracle to me.

A guy who likes hard-boiled eggs, but often cannot be bothered to hard-boil them because you have to time it to get it right so that it's the right consistency on the inside, but also the outside peels off, and there's like all these systems that you can go through to do it.

Very close timing, yep.

It turns out this little $15.99 steam machine makes incredible, perfect hard-boiled eggs.

And now I eat hard-boiled eggs all the time because I really like them, and they are now officially incredibly easy to make with one of these things.

It costs $15.99.

If you go on a popular popular e-commerce website, $15.99.

What's the name of the product again?

Dash Rapid Egg Cooker.

It's small and lightweight.

You can throw it in the back of your cabinet when you're not making eggs.

It is a genuinely miraculous machine.

Transformed my life.

I don't mind people making good hard-boiled eggs.

I don't mind giving them some free advertising on the podcast for sure.

John,

I've been trying to make deviled eggs by boiling them first.

And you know that when you are making your own hard-boiled eggs, every time half of them have have that thing where like the shell peels off but it pulls just like a little bit of egg white and then you're like this isn't pretty enough to serve to guests yeah and then you just end up eating it right there standing over the sink and this this has saved me that entirely i can make as many deviled eggs as i want because every single one comes out perfect i have to take a moment here just to address the judge sean hodgman listeners look you guys i understand you're probably vomiting right now we've been talking about chicken and eggs a lot it's a lot of food talk and if you're a vegetarian you you probably have smashed that unsubscribe button five times now.

So I apologize.

But John, what if they're an Ovoraptor?

Then they're loving it.

There you go.

Well, I mean, people like what they like.

But I do, I must beg your indulgence a moment longer just to say two things about making hard-boiled eggs.

If you're not going to get the fast, rapid, superdash steam machine or whatever.

First of all, the most important thing to do is after you cook them, you put them in ice water right away.

Cool them down.

That stops the green from forming around the yolk.

Second of all, and Jesse, this can be helpful even with your steam machine.

Easy peeling eggs are old eggs.

Fresher eggs, harder to peel.

You got eggs that are a week old, those are the ones that are going to be easier to peel.

The albumin in the white pulls away from the shell.

It makes it much easier to make an easy peel, hard-boiled egg.

That's all I got.

John, I can hear across this great nation hundreds, if not thousands, of Judge John Hodgman listeners sending me Kenji Lopez Alt's Serious Eats recipe for perfect hard-boiled eggs every time.

And I will grant you, I have used it many times and it works.

But there are a variety of steps involved and that put me off of making eggs unless it was really important.

And this little dumb machine that is made of garbage plastic works so perfectly that I just make them whenever I feel like it.

And it's no big deal.

I'm with you on that.

I want to try this thing out.

I think they should sponsor the podcast so no vegetarians will ever listen again, or vegans anyway.

You know what they're thinking right now?

What?

That we're gross.

Why buy the chicken when you get the eggs for free?

I'm sorry, vegans and vegetarians.

I love you too.

Let's move on.

Sarah says, my friend sometimes secretly records conversations between himself and elderly relatives, friends, or acquaintances to keep for his personal memories.

He does it when the older person's telling a story he may never get the chance to hear again.

He says he won't share share the recording with anyone else.

He doesn't want to ask permission to record them because he thinks it would sound weird and interrupt the flow of the story.

I think it's creepy and he should ask first.

Who's right?

I have to say there's

something that seems a little creepy about Sarah's friend.

What's he sneaking into nursing homes?

I mean, I get relatives and friends, but acquaintances?

Just wandering the halls of nursing homes with his cassette recorder waiting for stories to pour out?

No, he's probably doing something really nice.

He's probably helping older friends and relatives and acquaintances and giving them time and attention.

I shouldn't ascribe creepy motives to that.

Here's my feeling about it.

What your friend is doing, Sarah, is allowed, I was a little surprised, is allowed by federal law.

But before he presses record, he should check which state he's in.

Because there are 11 states.

That, I mean, this is just technical legality.

There are 11 states that require the consent of every party to a phone call call or an in-person conversation in order to make the recording lawful.

And in all states but these, if you want to record a phone call or record an in-person conversation, you only need one party consent, and that party could be you, right?

So the other person doesn't have to say yes.

They don't need to know.

This legal principle is known as the why they made crank yankers in New York and not Los Angeles principle.

Right.

Because, absolutely so.

Because the two-party consent laws where both parties have to knowingly consent are California, for example, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Washington.

So if your friend is in any of those states, Sarah, and he's pulling this stuff, he's secretly stealing elderly people's dreams and thoughts, he's a dream thief, then...

technically what he's doing is illegal.

But I don't think anyone would ever actually prosecute your friend, Sarah, because he's not really doing anything very terrible.

And arguably, he's doing something really, really nice.

Because everyone wants to be remembered.

Everyone wants to tell their stories.

And especially when they're older and a lot of people just aren't paying attention to them.

Now, the nicest and most morally virtuous thing to do would be to specifically set up a time to interview.

an elderly relative, friend, or acquaintance.

Say, I would like to get your life story and I'd like to tape it.

And then they know.

And then you just set that thing rolling, whether it's your phone or your video camera or whatever it is, and interview them and take a real life history.

That, I mean, I'm ready to do that right now.

And I'm not that elderly.

That's what my father did when he videotaped his interview

with my great-grandmother.

That was the mother.

of my grandfather.

And my family, my grandfather was known as, on my mom's side was known as Pop

and my grandmother was known as Nan, and my great-grandmother was known as Big Nan.

And she lived to be 108.

But sometime in her 90s, he sat her down and said, I would like to record all of your memories.

And he interviewed her and recorded it on VHS tape.

Where is that tape now?

No one knows.

Probably my cabin.

Right.

With my TV VCR.

Yeah.

It's somewhere, right?

I would rather know that it's in a basement somewhere than all of her memories went down into her grave.

And I also remember that her memories were halting.

She was easily confused.

Sometimes she needed time to put her thoughts together.

Talking with very elderly people is an act of kindness, but also of patience.

And if there are times when your friend's judgment is that asking permission or saying, hang on, let me get my phone out, would break a delicate chain of thought, I have no problem with this.

And it's really none of your business either.

My father sat his parents down

maybe 20 years ago to talk to them about family history and genealogy and so forth and recorded them on cassette tapes, which I have no idea where they are.

Yeah, they're somewhere.

My dad recently, I was talking with my dad and

he was telling me about some cousins that had been born in his mom's side of the family, the Chivolo family.

The Chivolo family originated in Udine, northern Italy.

And I was like, you know, I'm kind of not up to speed on the Shivolo family tree.

I kind of lost track.

Can you send me some information?

And he said, I would be glad to.

And he sent me a letter.

And you know what the letter said?

What's that?

It was just one sentence.

I've decided I prefer chicken thighs to chicken breasts.

No.

He gave me this wonderful family history of this whole side of this family that I had known at one point, but had kind of forgotten and about how, you know,

his grandmother had come to the United States and settled in Fitchburg, Massachusetts from Udene, Italy.

And

it was totally fascinating.

It's great.

It's great to get the family history.

So don't discourage your friend Sarah with legalities.

Encourage him to steal those old people's dreams.

Let's take a quick break.

More items on the docket coming up in just a minute on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Welcome back to Judge John Hodgman.

This week, we're clearing the docket.

Here is something something from Annabelle.

I'd like you to please issue an injunction to stop my husband, Michael, from diluting homemade food with store-bought food.

For example, Michael keeps trying to mix store-bought chicken stock into homemade chicken stock.

He uses robot words like efficiency and optimization to justify this mixing.

And also to turn me against him.

I feel like our new show is just called Robot Words and it's just a list of robot words.

Is Robot Words going to be a list of robot words, or is it just going to be the sound of a dial-up modem?

Michael also says that homemade chicken stock will last longer if he mixes it with the store-bought stuff.

I think he's completely ruining something that someone, me, just spent several hours making for him.

Another less offensive example of homemade food dilution is that Michael will often mix homemade granola with store-bought cereal like sugar-free wheat squares.

I like to make a cocoa granola with coconut, ginger, and fennel, and it pains me to see it topped with a bunch of bits of cardboard.

Fennel?

Wow.

That's a big flex for granola.

I mean, I like fennel as a spice.

It's got that licoricey.

You know what I mean, Jesse?

Licoricey.

I feel like Annabelle is really overstating the amount of work it takes to make stock.

As a stock maker myself,

I know for a fact that the the way you make stock is you have one of those gallon Ziploc bags in your freezer.

Yeah.

And then whenever you have trimmings or whenever you finish eating a piece of chicken.

Hey, we're back on chicken in that bag.

Just a little content warning for vegetarians and vegans out there.

You're not safe yet.

Sorry.

So, all right, you're putting in the dead bodies of chickens into a bag.

Yeah, you just toss them in that bag in the freezer.

And then eventually when the bag is full, you just dump it into a pot and you just leave it simmering on your stove for a few hours.

Saying I make it, it takes me hours to make it.

I mean, like in a literal sense that it isn't complete for hours, but it's not like you're sitting there stirring it so it doesn't clump up or something.

You don't put any aromatics in, you don't put any onion or garlic or yeah, that's in the trimmings.

That's what's great about saving your trimmings.

You got the stumps of your onions.

Oh, I see what you're saying, yeah, yeah.

Pieces of garlic, like cloves of garlic that are getting close to being done, and you bought new garlic, and so you just take the old ones and toss them in the bag in the freezer.

Yeah.

Celery, carrots,

and then just whatever other trimmings you got, and then whatever chunks of meat you got.

It's a classically simple meditative recipe that people enjoy doing because it is simple, and because it adds a lot of character to other foods you might make in it.

And it makes you feel like you're not being wasteful.

And then, John, you put the stock into Tupperwares and keep those in your freezer.

You put them in those like four-cup-ish Tupperwares.

Yeah.

And not only do you do that but you have an extra ice cube tray and you fill that with stock and then anytime you just need a little bit of stock for like making a sauce or something like that you've got it in that little ice cube tray already all apportioned listen to cook's illustrated quick tips here that's great those are good ideas what do you think about michael robot word's suggestion that i mean i don't even understand if she's making stock whether she's overstating its labor or not if she's making stock why does he have store-bought stock hanging around?

And why does he think that pouring the store-bought stock into the homemade stock is going to make it last longer?

Well, here's the thing.

The store-bought stock, a lot of people don't know this about store-bought stock, but they make it.

If you're making stock at home, you've got your aromatics, you've got your, you know, meaty bones, and so on and so forth.

You've got some vegetable trimmings, and you're boiling that up over a long period of time to extract the flavor.

The commercial stock is made in much the same way, the aromatics, the meaty bones, and

the vegetable trimmings.

And then also they just add a little bit of bleach.

What?

So when you mix it with your homemade stock, it lasts longer.

Don't say that.

That's not true.

Just a little

bit of bleach.

I don't want to be sued by big stock.

It's actually 409 with bleach.

Okay.

It's not just direct bleach.

They use a household cleaner that has a bit of bleach in it.

But that's why it's so antiseptic.

Let me say this about your situation, Annabelle.

First of all, I'm sorry you married a man who uses the word optimization, but that's on you.

You made a choice.

You didn't have to.

You're the one who married a robot, lady.

Yep, you married a robot.

I agree with you, Annabelle.

Even if my bailiff thinks you're overstating how much effort it is to make stock, I mean,

you are still making it.

And that is something that you made on purpose.

For him to just dump a bunch of store-bought stock into there

is

a violation and not cool.

No way can he do it.

That said,

he can violate his own wheat squares.

You can put your crazy fennel granola on his wheat squares.

That's not ruining the granola.

That's him using your good granola to make his food more interesting.

That's something that you should feel proud of.

But really, the main thing

I need to ask is, why are you making stock?

And I'll put this to you as well, Jesse.

When Kitchen Basics is already making the best chicken and beef stocks, that's the best.

They're the best.

I've made stock.

It tastes like dirty water compared to this Kitchen Basics.

And yeah, I'm saying their brand name.

I like them.

I want them to sponsor this podcast.

But the Kitchen Basics stock, I had some of their Kitchen Basics bone broth.

And it was really good.

And there's no bleach in it.

That's free advertising.

Again, Again, it's 409 with bleach.

It's not just straight bleach.

You do it.

Look, if making stock makes you happy, and I can definitely see why, because it is, it's a wonderful, slow, meditative way to spend some time in the kitchen with good smells.

There's nothing wrong with that.

Go and do it.

But yeah, Michael Robot, even if it's kitchen basics, keep your store-bought out of the homemade.

Come on, dude.

No, you're lame.

It's making stock, taking stock with Judge Sean Hodgman.

Here's the thing, John.

I have one more stock hot take.

The reason that store-bought stock tastes good is because it's basically salt and MSG water.

I want to be clear that I am not opposed to either of those things.

But the nice thing about making your own is you can control on your own end how much salt and MSG you want to be in there.

All prepared foods, including prepared stock, have a ton of salt in them, and that may be your taste preference.

And I think salt tastes great too, and I think MSG tastes great.

I always keep a can of accent brand MSG

handy next to my stove.

But it's nice because different recipes, you might want to control the amount of salt and MSG that are in your dish.

And you could do that to some extent just by buying low sodium stock and adding salt if you need it.

But

for me, I like to make it without salt and then add salt towards the end

based on what other stuff is in there and how salty it is and how salty I want my soup or whatever to be.

That's absolutely a fair point.

And, you know, obviously homemade is best.

Obviously the reason the benefit of homemade stock is that you are being thrifty and working with your hands.

Those are two great things to do.

You got to really need that stock.

I just want some free bone broth.

Come on, kitchen basics, get with it.

I mean, I'll take free bone broth if that's what we're talking about.

Yeah, we're talking about free bone broth.

I'll turn against homemade stock in an instant if free broth is involved.

Welcome to our new podcast, The Broth Boys.

Here's something from Zoe.

Often my boyfriend Nate and I cook at my house.

What, chicken?

Do they cook chicken?

When we use the stovetop, I feel strongly we should turn the overhead fan on to reduce the smoke and smell, particularly when frying foods.

He finds the background noise of the fan to be grating and disruptive to the social atmosphere.

He makes a show of turning it off when we finish cooking with an eye roll and a deep sigh.

I'd like you to rule that we must always use the fan on high when we're frying foods without any of his theatrics.

He would like you to rule that we only use the fan if there's legitimate smoke and, as he puts it, an actual need for it.

My roommate Leah is equally perturbed by the fan and agrees with Nate that it's disruptive and unnecessary.

An eye roll and deep sigh.

Boy, oh boy.

I understand it.

I feel that way about the fan.

All right, so you have a fan in your kitchen.

Here's the thing.

I have an open

living, cooking, dining area.

I know, I've been there.

It's delightful.

And so any smells in the kitchen immediately suffuse most of the house.

Right.

And for that reason, and the fact that I'm often, you know, whatever, searing food in a cast iron pan or something, I have to use the fan.

Right.

But I have always resented using the fan because I hate the sound.

It's loud.

And recently, I have learned from the experience of my children entering the educational system about auditory processing differences.

And there are people for whom a sound like that fan, which is surprisingly loud and droning, is difficult to separate from the other sound in the room.

I think it may simply be that I am one of those people.

I am more sensitive to the sound of that fan than others in my family, my wife particularly, are.

And so, for that reason, it bothers me more.

And I often fantasize about

like saving money for a year and buying whatever is the greatest.

I've spent an hour on the internet trying to figure out what's the greatest, quietest, most powerful kitchen fan.

And it's really, actually, really hard to find out.

It's easy to find out what's the most powerful, but correlating it with the noise is much, much more difficult.

But that said, I remember when my mother and I moved into an apartment that had belonged to a large family that did a lot of frying and did not run the fan.

And I remembered the literal days we spent getting grease off of the cabinets.

And for that reason, I am not someone who,

as much as I hate the fan, I'm not someone who just doesn't run it.

Right.

Especially when there might be particulates, when there's smoke or when I'm frying something,

more than if there's just steam or something like that.

Does your fan vent to the outside of your house?

I would think so, right?

It does, but I believe it was purchased by the previous owners of the home at a store known for flat-pack furniture,

which may or may not be known for powerful kitchen fans.

Right.

But when it sucks up grease and vapor and smoke, it shoots it outside the house, right?

Yeah, or at least the grease is caught in the grease traps in the filters.

Right.

And then the the air is shot outside the house yeah so i followed up with zoe to ask her if the fan vented to the outside because not all of them do like mine for example you know i live in a nice apartment in park slope that was an old clock factory that was derelict for many years and then turned into condominiums in 1999 and they designed these things so that the kitchens are all in the interior of the building and there is no ventilation to the outside so instead you have this fan that has a filter in it, but then just sucks up all the hot grease breath from the range, puts it through the filter, and then shoves it right back out into the room until the smoke alarm goes off.

And I hate it.

I mean, I hate the sound of the fan for sure.

And there are times when the fan gets triggered automatically because it's just too hot over by the stove.

And when it does, I swear.

I say curse words.

I'm so mad because it's so distracting.

It's so loud.

I get it.

But you know what?

I don't like.

I don't like the smoke alarm going off.

I want it to work.

You know?

So yeah, it makes a lot of noise.

But a vent to the outside is a good thing to have in your life, Nate.

Now, Nate isn't wrong.

You don't, I don't think you need to use it all the time.

If you are cooking at low heat, if you are sautéing a stir-fry or scrambling some eggs over medium-low heat.

If that's what what you mean by frying, Zoe, then Zoe, you're wrong.

But high heat stuff, and especially actual deep frying, use of the fan is essential for both smoke and odor issues.

And that's why I'm coming to your house tonight, Zoe, to make chicken-fried steak tonight.

And I'm going to feed it to both chickens and cows because I don't care anymore.

Did you get the chicken-fried steak when we were on tour, Jesse, at that diner we went to?

I can't remember.

I think I got a

corned beef hash instead.

I think I asked her if the chicken fried steak came from the freezer or whether they breaded it in-house, and they said it came breaded from the freezer.

That's sort of like my line.

I really like chicken-fried steak,

but I would really like for it to have been,

you know, prepared from scratch on premises.

It makes a big difference.

It's the same with onion rings.

Like, I love onion rings, but like the difference between the frozen ones out of a bag and ones where someone has dipped a ring of onion into some batter and then dropped it in a deep fryer, it's a big difference.

I think it was between Seattle and Portland that we stopped at this diner on our last tour.

And I remember it being very good food, but the chicken-fried steak was frozen, so you didn't get it.

But I also remember that the diner sort of homemade newsletter had some extremely challenging Game of Thrones trivia questions on it.

I was pretty impressed.

They stumped me on a couple of things.

Yeah, I started reading them as a joke, and I saw your eyes get real clear and fiery.

Fire and blood.

Those are the words of the House Targaryen.

John, did you know there was a baseball player named Billy Butler?

Oh, of course I did.

It's a baseball player, right?

Of course I know the name of this baseball player.

Who is a designated hitter primarily for the,

most notably for the Kansas City Royals.

Sure.

But he also played for one of my favorite teams, the Oakland A's, for a couple of years.

And he was a husky man who did not run particularly well.

And his

nickname was Country Breakfast.

And

I just thought that was the greatest professional athlete nickname.

And then I learned that after he washed out of of the major leagues relatively early, simply because while he had been a great hitter,

you know, basically slow guys don't age well in baseball is a broad way of describing it.

He just went on to play immediately after having played in the major leagues and made tens of millions of dollars.

He went on to play like rec league softball.

Uh-huh.

And just the idea of being in a rec league softball game and then just there's a guy who was in the major leagues last year up to bat.

Yeah.

And you're trying to decide what underhanded pitch to throw him.

And his nickname is Country Breakfast.

Country Breakfast.

Okay, let's take a quick break.

When we come back, we'll hear about cold hands.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up but no

no you would be wrong we're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing yeah you don't even really know how crypto works The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lollum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're clearing the docket this week.

Here is something from Michael, known to his family as Country Breakfast.

My wife thinks it's hilarious to put her icy hands on my bare skin, causing me to jump and yell with surprise.

I 100% understand my wife's desire to annoy me.

However, on occasion, she will sneak up on me and place her frozen appendages on me when I think that I am completely alone.

When I think I'm alone, my reaction can be much more instinctive, defensive, and violent.

Just the other day, I flung an elbow in response and missed her chin by only a few inches, throwing bows over here.

She found this hysterical, and it has only encouraged her to try sneaking up on me more often.

I love my wife, former New York Knicks forward Charles Oakley, very much, and I don't ever want to hurt her.

I acknowledge that in marrying her, I agreed to a lifetime of ice hand attacks.

I simply ask you and join her from doing it when I am unaware of her presence for her own safety.

Before we discuss this case, Jesse, can I tell you about my new nickname?

Yes.

It's Rudy Tooty Fresh and Fruity.

So what's the deal here?

This guy's wife is touching him with her cold hands.

Sneaking up on him and using her icy hands to surprise him.

And he is reacting in a violent manner with her elbows,

for example, by throwing elbows, which, and this maybe is the most dangerous thing of all.

His elbows are made of valerian steel.

How Stargaryon callback.

I appreciate that.

Sure.

So here's the thing that struck me in his letter.

I acknowledged that in marrying her, I agreed to a lifetime of ice hand attacks.

People write their own vows now, John.

I was going to say, like, unless that was one of your vows, I don't think you agreed to that.

And I would say, Jesse, that even if

it was in their vows,

that's not legally enforceable.

I don't think.

I think it's kind of crummy what she's doing to him.

Do you disagree, Jesse?

I do it to my wife with my feet,

but only in bed and only because I need her to warm my feet.

Right.

You're not doing it just because it amuses you that she screams.

Not just because of that.

No.

Here's the thing.

I got a letter recently.

And a listener was mad at me.

And it happens.

People have a different point of view.

And, you know, the letter writer was mad at me because I had ruled in favor of a husband in a heteronormative male-female marriage.

And they're like, how could you do this?

And I appreciate there's precedent.

I often rule against husbands in their new systems of doing simple things.

And the reason is that it's often the case that those systems tend to be unnecessary, illogical, manipulative, controlling, and dumb.

Often, but not always.

This is not a podcast about punishing husbands.

It's just a podcast that occasionally punishes husbands on a case-by-case basis.

And in this case, in my opinion, the husband is being wronged over and over again

with his wife's icy hands.

Consent goes two ways.

Two-party consent, just like in California and Connecticut.

Even in marriage, it is inappropriate to touch another person's body in ways that clearly distress that person, especially if you know that it distresses that person.

I think,

as I told my daughter when she was pulling the cat's tail when she was two years old, if it's not fun for everyone, it's not fun at all.

I'm not fond of Michael's defense that he's afraid of hurting his wife involuntarily in part because it blurs an ugly line between defense and reprisal.

But mostly I'm not fond of it because it seems like a fearful cover story for what is a very simple and honest crux.

He just doesn't want her to touch his body in that way and scare him.

And I think Michael's wife needs to respect that if he's said it enough.

If he said it once, it should be enough, but I mean, by now.

I mean, if the gender orientation of each person in this couple was reversed, right?

And it was a man with cold hands constantly terrifying his wife by touching her body.

Cold Hands' spouse, in that case, would be immediately considered one of the greatest spouse monsters ever appear on this podcast.

Sometimes a husband is right, everybody.

And I think that Michael really deserves to not be terrified with Ice Hands.

Cold hands is a character in Game of Thrones.

Did you know that, Jesse Torney?

Cold hands.

I don't think they have cold hands in the TV show.

And in the book, his identity is unclear.

He rescues Brandon Stark

and Hodor and his other companions from the White Walkers at one point.

And I think there's some speculation that he is the revived corpse of Benjamin Stark, the missing brother of Ned Stark, Edard Stark of Winterfell.

It's been a while since I read those books.

Sorry, George R.R.

Martin, if I'm getting it wrong.

Wait, was this a real thing?

Not a bit?

No, it's true.

Coldhands.

That's his name.

Cool.

He's got Cold Hands.

And he's scary.

He's a scary.

I mean, he's a good guy, but he's scary.

You know, your friend George R.R.

Martin gave me an advanced galley copy of the next book in the series.

And there's a character named Frozy Tozies.

Coldhands seems to be a brother of the Night's Watch.

He wears black and calls Samuel Tarley Brother.

The dominant theory is that Coldhands is a dead or missing member of the Night's Watch.

That's from a wiki of ice and fire.

Check it out.

I'm not lying.

Michael, blink twice if you need help.

You know, John, we're about to finish, but I actually have a follow-up remark in response to a Twitter user who contacted me regarding regarding tipping.

Tell me about it.

So I had tweeted in, you know, there was a recent viral article regarding saving for your future by tipping on the pre-tax rather than the post-tax amount of the bill.

You're talking about that video that that guy made on

the website.

Yeah, on the website that will not be plugged here.

Right.

So

I, you know, I retweeted it with a remark that said something like,

yeah, or you could just not do that.

Right.

You know?

Yep.

And

generally, the response was positive.

I think the Judge John Hodgman audience, and by extension, the folks who follow me on Twitter, they understand that

they have a choice between sticking it to waiters, waitresses, and kitchen staff.

or

saving a dollar or two.

And they figure, hey, maybe I should just help these working people who are working very hard for my enjoyment and pleasure sure

and so mostly positive response

one guy followed up and I think it's material to note that he followed up like three days later

it was like days I don't even know how he found the tweet all these days later

and he said well I think

servers should be paid a living wage.

Sure, sure.

I saw a lot of those in response to that.

Well, I think I, an occupant of the moral high ground,

think that servers should be paid a living wage.

And I responded, I agree, but I don't know what that has to do with how much you should tip them.

And I just want to say that it's possible for servers to be paid a living wage and receive tips.

And I think reasonable people could disagree about whether tips should at all be a way that people are paid.

I think, you know, you could make an argument for tips should not exist and you could make an argument for tips should exist.

I think we can all agree that everyone who works hard deserves to earn an amount of money that they can live on.

And that the question of whether or not you tip is not a referendum on that matter, except to the extent that whatever money you tip goes directly to the people who are working hard.

Here in Los Angeles, where I live, John,

there is a living wage ordinance.

The current minimum wage is, I think, between $15 and $16 an hour, if I remember correctly.

And it applies to restaurant workers, including those who work for tips.

I also tip those servers.

You have a very easy choice, which is I could either give some money directly to people who are working very hard or not.

And whatever legislative system you imagine could exist,

and I believe the specific response I gave to this guy was, I think you accidentally tagged John and me instead of your legislator.

I missed that one.

Sick burn, Brothbrow.

Whatever system you think could and should exist, great.

Go for it.

Advocate it.

In the meantime, we live within the system that currently exists.

And the choice between tipping generously and tipping parsimoniously or not tipping at all is a choice between supporting people who are working very hard for your pleasure and not supporting them when you have the opportunity to do so as directly as in any other part of our lives.

There's no other part of our lives outside of tipping where we so directly have the power to positively

affect the remuneration of the people who are working hard hard for us as as with tipping.

And so

whatever system you imagine, continue to dream.

Dream on it, friend.

Dream on it, dreamer.

Yeah, or as you say, work for it, advocate for it, fight for it, organize for it.

It's a good idea.

I too would prefer that service staff not be dependent on tips to earn a living wage.

And there are many states, not including California, where service staff are allowed to be paid less than the minimum wage if their tips would, on average, get them to the minimum wage.

However, I don't think that's a good reason not to tip.

And frankly, at this point, having done the number of Judge John Hodgman episodes on this subject as we have,

and I am obviously speaking extemporaneously and passionately here because I really care about this.

If you are going to at message me

suggesting that either people should not be tipped or that

advocacy for a living wage on Twitter is a substitute for tipping, then you will get muted or possibly blocked if you're extra snotty about it.

I just don't want to hear about it anymore.

This is like your is a hot dog is sandwich, but with real-life consequences.

Yes.

Like where people actually get hurt because of

the strange and persistent philosophy that it is justifiable to not tip because you believe the system should be different and that somehow your not tipping is going to make an iota of difference compared to actual real-world advocacy for legislation if that's what you want.

As though restaurant owners are like, you know, I've thought about going to a tipless system,

but I decided against it until

I realized that my employees were getting paid less by others.

Right.

There was one in that same conversation around that same video, there was a guy who got up in in my mentions

who actually suggested that if everyone tipped less, it would finally wake up

wait staff and force them to unionize and demand a living wage.

You know what?

If wait staff get paid well,

you know, I think I've mentioned

my best buddy from middle school, Adam,

his father was a career waiter.

He was also an artist,

a brilliant brilliant classical guitar player and teacher, but he was a career waiter, and he was able to do that in the city of San Francisco because here in California, you're required to be paid the minimum wage in addition to tips.

He was a great waiter.

He worked in a nice, fancy restaurant, and he made a pretty good wage being a waiter, which is a very hard job.

If somebody gets paid

extra because of tips, great.

I would love for all of us to be paid extra.

I love it.

I think that's wonderful.

I'm glad that his very hard work was well compensated.

There's nothing wrong with that.

That's all I got.

That's all I got, John.

Forgive me for saying it, but it got stuck in my craw.

It got stuck in that craw.

And you know what happens when something gets stuck in my craw, John?

Get it out.

Well,

folks listening at home and in your cars, this has been Jesse Thorne and Rudy Toottie Fresh and Fruity wrapping up another great episode of Broth Bros and or

stock taking and talking stock.

Tune in next week for Judge John Hodgman.

Maybe we'll talk less about chicken.

It could happen.

The docket is clear.

That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman.

Our producer is the brilliant Jennifer Marmer, who I saw the other day at the Rose Bowl Flea Market.

That was a lot of fun.

Along with her capable husband, Shane.

Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman.

Make sure to hashtag your JudgeJohn Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H.

O.

And check out the Maximum Fund subreddit to discuss this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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