Live From Los Angeles 2019

Welcome to Judge John Hodgman. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
This episode was recorded live right here in Los Angeles. Friend of the court, Amy Mann, is our musical guest.
It was a great show.

Let's go to the stage at the Bootleg Theater for some live justice.

Los Angeles, California. You've come to us desperate for justice.
We're here at the Bootleg Theater to deliver it.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants. Please welcome Tolly and She-Ra to the stage.

Tonight's case, Family Freud. Tali brings the case against her sister, Shira.
Shira thinks Tali shouldn't invite her therapists to her wedding. Tali thinks she should.

Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom

and presents an obscure cultural reference.

The most beautiful quality of a true friendship is to understand and be understood with absolute clarity. Now, before we begin, you must all be warned, nothing here is vegetarian.
Bon épetit.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Tali and Shira, please rise and raise your right hands.
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God or whatever?

I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his therapist is Dr.
Jepson S. Mallort?

Yes.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours' favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I quoted when I entered this fake courtroom in Los Angeles?

Let's see.

Tali, why don't you guess first? Are you Tolly? Yes. Well, I just said, why don't you guess first? Shaking your head no is not an answer.

It's not a good answer

for this podcast, for sure.

I don't even remember what it was, but I'm going to say Freud. You're going to say Freud?

All right, I'm definitely writing that down.

Every letter. There we go.
Not just moving my fingers around. Now, Shira, you are the sister.

And what is your guess?

I'm going to go with Carl Jung. Carl Jung.
We watch a lot of Fraser. Yeah.
Both, and indeed all guesses are wrong.

I was quoting the famous psychiatrist, Hannibal Lecter.

Hannibal Lecter, of course, was a psychiatrist in Maryland.

Specifically, I was quoting Hannibal Lecter as played by Mads Mickelson in the incredible TV version created by Brian Fuller. If you have not seen it, watch it.

You would not believe that they put that on broadcast television. And then broadcast television was like, oh, what the hell are we doing?

Cancel this right away.

And you may know that as

in that show, in that retelling of the Hannibal Lecter story, Hannibal Lecter became very good friends with Will Graham.

the FBI investigator, and it did not turn out well. So this is what we're talking about.
Should you become friends with your psychiatrist because

they might frame you for murder and then try to eat you.

So Tali, you are getting married to your therapist? No. Oh.
To whom? Yeah. Oh, this is the fellow here? Yeah.
What is your name, sir? Joe. Joe.
Congratulations.

I'm glad that your opinion does not matter here, obviously.

Somehow, the dispute of whether or not Tali's therapist should come to your wedding is between Tali and her sister She-Ra, is that correct? Yes.

So Tali, tell me, you know, I don't, I, tell me about your relationship with your therapist. How long have you, and I don't want to get too personal, but I need to know some basic facts.

What are you seeing her for? What medications are you on?

No.

Obviously, you have something more than a simple therapist-client relationship,

and you want to invite your therapist who is, what pronouns does this person use?

He. He pronouns?

Okay.

You want to invite him to your wedding. How come?

Well,

we sort of developed a friendship, and

Joe and I have actually attended concerts with him and his wife. It's not like a flirtation.

No, it's getting even more exciting.

I regret everything.

Do you live here in Los Angeles? No, we live in San Diego. In San Diego.
All right. Yeah.

Yay.

Boundaries are more fluid in San Diego, I think.

Yeah.

So you're going to... What concerts are you going to go see?

We've been to Andrew Day.

Okay. And some other ones that I can't remember.
I can't remember. Okay.

So how long have you been in a relationship with your therapist?

A therapeutic relationship. A clinical relationship.
About two and a half years. Two and a half years.
Things are moving very fast.

At what point did you, were you in therapy and you're like, hey,

you want to go see a concert with my husband?

He actually, there was an artist that I really liked, Andre Day, and I wanted to go, but I couldn't afford it.

So he ripped up my co-paycheck and said, We're going to this concert and you have to go as well.

Wow. Right?

Okay, whose side are you on? I can't tell. I cannot.

What is the therapist's name or give me a name? No.

He will move and this whole show will be moot, I'm sure. We'll call him Dr.
Cool. Perfect.
What were you going to call it? Dr. Kool.
I was going to suggest Dr. Frazier Crane.
Dr. Frazier Cool.

Please, please. Well, you know what?

Dr. Frazier Kool.
Okay, great. All right, I'm listening.
So

I think you should give his name because he's going to get a lot of business now because all these people are going to be like, yeah, I've I've not been feeling so great, and I kind of don't have the money

to fly to England

to see band. I can't think of a single goddamn band right now.

Ryan, what's the name of the band? The Who. The Who?

England, first thing you thought. So, England, first thing you thought? All right, yeah.

The Who.

I can't, I can't,

I've been depressed a little bit.

I can't get the money together to go on the Jonathan Colton cruise.

And he was like, I am tearing up your copay and reaching in my wallet to give you all the money in the world.

No wonder you wanted to come to the wedding. You owe him.

You like him, you owe him. Joe, you like Dr.
Frasier Cool? Yes. All right, so sure, this is great.

Oh?

Thank you for making your disdain audible for the podcast.

Appreciate that. Now let's move to words.

What is your issue with the obviously fast and probably professionally troubling relationship?

Mostly, yeah, it's troubling. It makes me very uneasy how quickly boundaries became fluid.

And

besides the concerts, he would text her randomly about music that he liked at various times in the day.

Like the Who. Artie Shaw, Stephen Foster, Billy Bragg, Tom Waits.

And so I was always uneasy with her having him as a therapist in general.

So

when I found out that she wanted to have him at the wedding, it made me much more uneasy.

So,

what do you guys do in life?

I do neuroscience research, and I'm a doula.

Well, sure.

I mean, if you're in neuroscience research, you must be pretty bored.

Probably you need to have an incredibly challenging hobby.

That's great. Amazing.
And Shira?

I also work in science at a biotech company for working on a cure for cystic fibrosis. Oh.

Excellent.

A weirdly specific answer, but.

So,

do you also live in San Diego? Yes. Are you guys very close? Yes.
Okay. We'll see.

Have you explained to Tali why this is troubling to you? And even if you have, could you look at her and explain it to her now?

I think that the lack of boundaries that this professional authority figure has with you is not healthy and could lead to potentially getting murdered and eaten up.

It could go that far. And I don't want that to happen because I love you.
Oh, don't throw that into this.

Don't throw I love you into this.

She already one-upped doula with cystic fibrosis.

Dr. Frazier Kuhl has already instructed me that your love for me is a fiction

and that I must disconnect from you immediately

and travel the world with him and his... He has a partner as well.
Did you mention that you go to the wife? He has a wife. He has a wife.
And it's just going to be the four of them from now on, Shira.

And you're out.

Do you have a partner, a cool therapist in your life?

I have a husband who is very cool. Yeah.

All right, good. But you guys are going to be all alone.
Say goodbye to Shira because this is the end.

Let the record show that Shira happily is waving goodbye to her sister. If you're listening at home,

will you be my new mate of honor?

Will I be your new maid of honor? No, because I have ethics.

I mean,

is Dr. Frazier Kuhl,

not that this makes a huge difference, but what kind of therapist is he? Is he a doctor of psychology or a psychiatrist or more a life coach-y kind of guy you met on a street corner?

He's a psychologist.

You go to an office and not a coffee shop.

Okay.

I literally know a guy here in Los Angeles who,

in fact, he's talked about it on my show, so I think I can throw him under the bus. Max Fun host Dave Holmes

has an awesome therapist that he loves who only sees him out on the waves on their boards, man.

But Jesse, that's A, super cool, but also there is an established therapeutic boundary. He only sees him out on the waves.

I consulted with a a therapist that I know about this to see if there was anything that I didn't,

like whether there was a blanket rule of not fraternizing with patients. And in fact, there isn't.
I mean, there are gray areas and there is a certain amount of fraternizing, but

lots of therapists will not do it because they think that it violates the clinical purity of seeing the person in one context and not crossing that therapeutic slash friendship blood-brain barrier.

Also because it's a hassle for them. Sure, right.

I've seen what about Bob.

So there is, I mean, it is an unusual thing, I think.

Is anyone here a psychologist or anyone know?

And do you have that someone is being pointed at against her will by her newsy husband?

By the way, is her husband one of multiple newsies in the immediate vicinity?

Yeah, it's a newsy son and his newsy dad.

By the way, older newsy dad, you've been working really hard to get my attention from from the stage. I see you have a copy of Vacation Land.
I see you have a Kung Pao Finance Factory t-shirt.

I love you, but I gotta stay up here.

There are other humans here, too, and I need to think about all of them, but I love you, Dad. So

let the record show, for those listening at home, there is a therapist in the audience,

a marriage and family therapist.

And because this is a podcast and you are not microphoned,

what is your opinion on this? Thumbs up or thumbs down?

Thumbs down.

Thumbs down with a bullet.

And go ahead. I will say, when I heard the headline, I was like, awesome, that's really cool.
Like, therapeutic relationship is super special. Like, absolutely show up to

the wedding. But

the practice in general is to avoid dual relationships. Dual, right.
So let the record show if you didn't hear.

What is your name?

Emily.

Dr. Emily.

Not Dr. Emily.
Master Emily.

Master Emily in the audience is a family and marriage counselor.

Mentioned the term. MFT, marriage and family therapist.
Marriage and family therapist, thank you.

A master of marriage and family therapy, an MMFT,

and also MMA, right? Yeah.

And also...

What are you doing? Also, an L7?

Licensed. Licensed.
Okay, got it. And this is, you're supposed to avoid a dual relationship.

A dual relationship. A dual relationship is when a married couple meets another couple that they find very attractive.

Shira, have you ever had a therapist? Yes. And how is that relationship? Did you go to concerts with them and

go on baseball dates? Did you cosplay together at the San Diego Comic-Con?

Trying to think of anything I know about San Diego.

No, I will say that. Was it the San Diego chicken?

It was not the San Diego chicken.

Was it a person wearing shorts?

Probably at some point.

Now, what was that like for you? Well, actually, my former neighbor...

is a therapist and by coincidence I was referred to a therapist from a friend who happened to be the neighbor's friend that I had met at a party.

And then I started seeing her and recognized that she was at the party.

But then we continued and didn't hang out outside of therapy sessions. Well, I guess the lesson is: therapists are everywhere.
You don't even know.

There's one in the audience right now.

They're like newsies in that sense.

Is this, Shira, is this invitation

part of a bigger issue that you have with your sister, a bigger worry that you have with your sister? What else worries you about Tali?

I think in general, she

has a big open heart, which is great. External.
That's terrible. I rule against it.

Let the record reflect that Tali did a, yeah, I've got a big open heart shimmy dance.

I think that sometimes

she can be taken advantage of because of it, and I feel protective over her, and so it concerns me. Have you been taken advantage of before? And did Shira protect you from it, Tali?

Maybe. Shira, do you want to say whatever the story is? Okay.

Well, mostly an ex-girlfriend that was

not very good to her. Okay.

And do you think that Shira is right? Are you a little bit too open-hearted? Yes.

Okay. And is this something you might be discussing with Dr.
Frazier Cool?

Yes.

Don't you think it's interesting that he then suggested, let's hang out together all the time?

Because this might be part of his therapy? Is this some.

What do you foresee? So, you just, you just, you, you, how long have you and Joe been together? Uh, about two weeks. Five weeks.

Two years. Two years? And now you're getting married.
Congratulations.

What's going to happen at the ceremony? Is your therapist going to marry you?

No. Is your therapist going to be, since I refused, will your therapist be your maid of honor?

Probably. Maybe.
What if the therapist, what if the therapist was the ring bearer?

That is already spoken for. Okay.

So, any special role for the therapist in this wedding, or he's just going to hang around with his wife?

Is his wife even invited? Because let's make it extra weird.

His wife is invited, and they have already RSVP'd. Oh,

what makes this more stressful? Because she wants me to uninvite somebody that has already RSVP'd to my wedding? Well,

this does speak to standing. She-Ra,

it's Tali's wedding.

I mean, even if

Dr. and Mrs.
Frazier Kuhl had not already RSVP'd,

which makes it a, you know, they've committed. Yes.
And it's extra awkward for her to say, my sister said they can't have you.

My sister in a podcast ganged up on me.

Then Dr. Frazier Kuhl will be like, no problem.
I see you will be in therapy forever. Thank you.

You have not established that you have standing to bring this this case to this court. You are not being harmed.
You are not, there is no injustice being visited upon you.

Presumably, it's not a question of the therapist is invited and you're not, because there's only one spot left. Then I would very happily rule in your favor because that would be extra weird.

What business is it of yours?

Well,

it's not that I

am saying that she's not allowed to. I'm just voicing my concern and

feeling of unease.

Through the medium of binding comic arbitration.

Yes, but she submitted the case. Right.
You want me to rule. If I were to rule in your favor, you want me to tell Shira to buzz off and mind her own business.
Yes.

I'm paying for the wedding, so I want control over the guest list. Right, of course.
And for the therapy. And for the therapy.
Sometimes.

Quick, Shira, who else do you want to ban from your sister's living? Ooh.

This is the first time hearing about that. Yeah.

You seem to have someone in mind.

Well, I don't want to say

podcast. Here, just to me, just whisper it to me.
We won't put it on the podcast. Okay.

Oh, yeah, totally.

That guy cannot go.

We're talking about the newsy dad, right? Yes.

I'm going to keep that information to myself for now, Tali, because it gives me leverage over you.

I don't know when I'm able to use that in the future. Just like your therapist is collecting all sorts of personal information.

And if I were to rule in your favor, the therapist,

I think

a nice compromise would be that he can attend the ceremony but not the reception

no okay

so

there's one thing that's a little unclear before I go into my chambers I just want to understand this

the timeline you have been in a in therapy with Dr. Frazier Kuhl for

like two and a half years and you've been seeing your husband for

two years

okay

I was just wondering if it's possible that your husband is Dr. Fraser's cool or not.

It'd be super cool to invite his wife then. So Dr.
Frayfray precedes Joe in your life. Yes.
He's seen your entire relationship blossom. Yes, and has supported our relationship.

Right, because he wants to go to that sweet wedding.

Is he the one who's like, you know what, I think you should really get married and invite me.

Let me at those beef medallions.

The most elaborate form of wedding crashing of all kind. It truly is a criminal mastermind.

Sorry, you're a doula. Let me at those dehydrated placenta capsules.

Doula's rule.

Doula's rule.

Tell me about your wedding. Like just so that I know.
Just so I know what I'm missing. Because I'm not going because I respect boundaries.

Where is it going to be held?

San Diego Comic-Con?

No. At a hotel in San Diego.
At a hotel in San Diego? And you're going to have a band, a DJ? What?

Just a DJing, because my family is his relay, so we'll have some belly dancing and then like white 80s pop for him. Yeah.

Cool.

Sounds like fun. Sounds like a wedding I'd like to go to.
It's Beatles-themed.

Joe,

come to the stage. Oh, God.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Hi, Joe. How are you? Great.

This is just between you and me.

This conversation is privileged, you understand, because it's our professional relationship as your judge.

Sure.

Joe, to make it official, you have to give John a dollar.

Yeah, Ryan, do you have a dollar to give to Joe to give to me? Thank you.

Thank you. In consideration of $1.

Used to be $0.05, now it's gone up to $1.

What do you think about this?

You want to have this guy at your wedding? Absolutely.

No second doubts? No. No? Is this guy a creep or what? He's not.
No. Just another quick question.

Do you need any help? Do you need...

Is there anything you can't say right now?

I'll blink twice when it's time.

Let the records show that he did not blink at all.

I think I heard everything

I need to in order to form my decision. I'm going to go into my chambers.
I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Tali, you brought this case. How are you feeling about your chances?

I felt fine until Master Emily over here and a button.

I mean, I think I have a fair chance. Shira, how about you?

Yeah, I don't think I'm going to win because it's her wedding.

But Shira, you're just doing your big sister duties, right? I mean,

you're not, you don't have the power to stop the wedding or anything. You're just, you only have the power of your bully pulpit.

I'm not a bully.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all of this. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

One question. that I

realized I should have asked while I was relaxing in my chambers.

Have you discussed the oddness of this with Dr. Fraser Kuhl? Yes.

And what does Dr. Frazier Kuhl say about it? Does he say, it's cool?

I mean, he basically kept asking me if it's something that I'm comfortable with it and if it seems like a

gray area or something, but I don't know. We just kind of...
It is a gray area. Yeah.
You know, I think

I want everyone to be cool. And obviously, you have someone in your life that is a very positive force, it would seem.

You like this person, you are able to express yourself to this person, and you have bonded with this person to the point that you would like to include them in your regular life.

Most, I think, I don't want to speak for all therapists, but a lot of therapists would put the brakes on that

to avoid forming that dual relationship for the therapeutic purpose of of keeping the office or the surfboard or wherever it is that you're seeking therapy to be a place that is about you and a chance for you to say your words and see the contradictions and see the stories that you're telling yourself and and grow.

A therapist is supposed to facilitate that you-ness.

A friendship is not you, it's us.

I mean, I think that it is very possible that in developing this friendship, you will be compromising your therapeutic relationship and the therapeutic benefit that you have from going to see Dr.

Frazier Kuhl. Because all of a sudden, you're going to go to Dr.
Frazier Kuhl's office and you're not going to be saying those words. You guys are just going to be chilling out,

talking about bands,

looking at photos from the wedding, and eating snacks.

And that might not be

the best therapy for you. However,

what Shira may not realize is, it's your life.

Shira, are you the older sister? Yeah. Yeah.

Even an only child could see that.

It's your life and

your mistakes to make if it turns out to be a mistake or a great victory to have that you can rub in Shira's face later on when you and Dr. and Mrs.

Frazier Cool and Joe all get special San Diego marriage together

and travel the world leaving Shira alone with her only one husband.

Then you will be able to say, this is what an open heart buys you in this life, Shira. Enjoy your closed heart.

You know, in consulting with my friend who is a therapist, she had mentioned she had some colleagues who had been invited to weddings and they went to the wedding but kind of kept apart and then did not go to the reception.

It was just

a gesture of inclusion, but not a like, let's do shots. You know.

I would say this.

I will

allow you. Boy.

What a monstrous thing to say.

It's your wedding. Invite who you want.

You don't need me to allow it. But since you did bring this case,

and I am finding in your favor, I am nonetheless offering a fake legal order, which is that you seek a second therapeutic opinion.

You've talked about it with your therapist, Dr. Frazier Kuhl.
He is not

about this friendship. And I think you need to talk to him about, like, maybe I should see another therapist who I don't have a friendship with.

Is there someone you can recommend? And maybe actually don't take his recommendation because he'll just, now I think about it, you're just playing into the long con.

Shira, you should find someone

for

Tali to talk to in the therapeutic community. to just talk through these issues and get a second opinion on what the risks are.

Because I don't know necessarily what they are, and I don't know what you're seeking in your therapy. Do you know what I mean? Maybe all you're seeking is a cool guy to hang out with.

Like, that's pretty therapeutic. You know what I mean? Like, I get it.

Sometimes we just need to hang out with a cool guy in a clean office. Like, that's a pretty awesome way to spend an afternoon to feel better.
You know, like, if that's all it is, great.

But maybe what you two should do is get a little family therapy.

Maybe the two of you should go to a therapist together, talk this all out, and see if it gives you any insight as to whether for you this is an okay therapeutic relationship that crosses these boundaries, that blurs these boundaries, or if maybe you can remain friends with Dr.

Frazier Kuhl, but instead seek a different therapist or a different course of therapy in order to get what you need to.

So, that is my order. This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Our thanks to Annie Gorel and Andrew Brooks for naming this case. Tali Shira, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

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Bail, Jesse Thorne. That was some justice we dispensed.
Now it's time for a little palate cleanser, a little wonderful music. Would you please introduce our very special musical guest?

NPR Music called her one of the top 10 living songwriters. You may know her from her 1980s band Till Tuesday or as one half of the both with Ted Leo.

Her latest album, Mental Illness, won the 2018 Grammy for Best Folk Album. Please welcome to the stage Amy Mann.
Amy Mann, ladies and gentlemen. Amy Mann.

Thank you, Jesse. Thank you, guys.

I'm here to make you sad.

You guys are up for it.

You look like

a perfect fit

for a girl in need

of eternity.

But can you

save

me?

Come on and

save

me

if you could

save

me

from the ranks of the freaks

who suspect they could never love anyone.

Cause I can

tell

you know what it's like

That I want the

way

of a hunger strife

But can you

save

me?

Why don't you

save

me

if you could

save

me

from the ranks of the freaks

who suspect

they could never love anyone

You struck me dumb

A radio

like Peter Pan

or Superman

You will come

save

me.

Why don't you

save

me

if you could

save

me

from the ranks of the freaks who suspect they could never love anyone

except the freaks who suspect they could never love anyone

except the freaks who could never love anyone

Thank you so much

Amy Mann, ladies and gentlemen, keep it going for Amy Mann.

Hi, Amy.

Hello. Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for having me.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you for that extra bit of applause that broke out.

Extra applause is a single sound. I got a second applause.
Thank you for singing that beautiful, beautiful song and incredibly thematically appropriate song for what we were just talking about.

You wrote an album called Mental Illness. Yes.
Did you hear any of that case that we just heard? Yes.

And do you have an opinion or a piece of advice that you'd like to give to Tali, who's sitting right there in the front? Oh,

I have so many opinions and advices.

I mean,

the short answer is obviously the person whose wedding it is gets to choose the guests.

The second short answer is

if you have a concern, you get to say it once and then you just have to let it go and let people have the dignity of their own experience and make their choices.

I will say that as a person who doesn't always have great boundaries and finds it difficult to say no, that

to learning how to say no is a process that happens over a period of years and sometimes you have to do it in steps.

It does make it difficult if the person that you have to say no to is your fing therapist.

Like,

that's kind of a bias.

Maybe it's the therapist's job to help you on that journey to being able to set boundaries. I mean, well, I'll help you set boundaries, but meanwhile, do you want to have a drink?

Exactly. Let's talk about it.
Let's talk about it in my motorboat.

Now, Shira and Tali, you sent in some evidence I was just informed that we did not look at.

I'm not sure whether this will change my mind. It could be some very compelling evidence.
Let's take a look at the evidence you sent in. Okay.

I don't know what that is, but I like it.

I'll let the record show that. The therapist is on the right.

Yeah, we have two photos. One of a cat sunning itself on a trellis, and that's fairly easy to take in.

That's exactly a thing that a human might see.

and understand what it is. Whereas

the photo on the left are two adult humans standing in front of a Christmas tree holding a cat while both of them are wearing rubber cat masks.

Now, John, I want to be abundantly clear. This one on the left is certainly a nightmare.

It's not because of the cat masks. It's because it's obviously December and the man is wearing flip-flops.

That does seem to confirm that the location is San Diego.

Is that Dr. Frazier cool and you? Is that part of of your therapy? Oh, Shira,

that's you and your husband in those cat masks?

And you want to tell your sister

about boundaries.

Your husband has no boundaries between his toes and me.

That's adorable, and thank you for sharing your private life with us.

I guess there is cosplay in San Diego every day.

Is there any other photos in this sequence? Oh, here we go. And some more.
Oh,

these are two dog pictures. These are your dogs, Tolly? What are their names?

It's Coco and Fergie. Coco and Fergie.
They're very adorable. And it looks like Coco has his head trapped in a coffee table.

I hope this had a happy resolution.

All these photos will be available, of course, on the JudgeJohn Hodgman page at maximumfund.org or on our Instagram at Instagram.com/slash judgejohodgman.

If you have not subscribed to it, do it right now, right now. But meanwhile, Bay LF Jesse Thorne, we have dispensed some justice.

I hate to tell you this, but there is still a little bit of injustice in this world. And we're

and we're gonna, we need to solve it now and quick. This is a segment we call

Swift Justice.

Do it again without me getting scared.

This is the same one we call Swift Justice. Let's put 15 minutes on the clock and we'll hear as many cases as we can.

Please welcome to the stage Emily and Alex. Emily and Alex are our first litigants.
Emily, who brings this case before our court? That would be me.

And you are Emily. I am Emily.
And Alex? Yes. Yeah, all right, good.

Let the record show that Amy Mann is staying with us. She will also be able to judge you.

So.

I have your full consent for that. Yes, that's so ordered.
Okay, Emily,

what justice do you seek for me?

State the nature of the dispute. I would like to get a pet.
Okay.

So ordered.

That's not.

No, no, no, no.

I would normally, if you were just a person living on your own, of course, you can do whatever you want. But I take it you guys share a home and a life.
Yes. All right.

And what and what nature of a life do you share? You are partners, you are spouses. What?

We are spouses. You are spouses.
Congratulations. Good.
And you do not want a pet. Is that correct? No, that's not the case at all.
I've agreed to get a pet. Okay, why are you wasting my time?

What's going on?

What's happening? It's the order of operations, so to speak. I

would like us to.

We've already decided, and

Emily and I have been together for a long time, that we were going to start a family together, have children and pets. I would like to.
You want to have children first?

Yes. How long have you been together? Been together.
It'll be nine years in April. And how long have you been married? Since.
Ten years.

Since August. Five months.
Five months. Congratulations, that's wonderful.

And why do you want to have children before pets?

I just think that's the optimal way to do that. Yeah, oh, interesting.
The guy has an idea about.

The guy in the relationship has a theory about. he's probably done a spreadsheet and some graphs and figured out

a theoretical, most optimal way to live life.

Okay.

My concern is that if we get a pet, well, obviously having a child is just a much more difficult thing. Do you think that you sure? Yeah.
I wonder. Exactly sure.

And

that if we had a pet first, as soon as a human child comes along, that pet's going to be completely ignored.

We're in mob justice already. I think we've got some pets in the audience.

Amy Mann, what do you think of these theories and conflicts? The pet will get ignored when the child comes along. That's the way it is.

I think that having a pet is a perfect way to test-drive your parenting styles. Absolutely.

I don't know why.

Knowing the concept? I feel like that's a pretty good concept.

The owner that will let the dog run off the leash, running circles around people,

digging up people's gardens.

That person shouldn't be a parent.

I think it will reveal information that then can and should be discussed. Yeah, you can make adjustments into how you care for things that need you and also whose feces you're going to be handling.

Exactly.

That seems to make sense to me.

I mean, usually usually people and couples have pets as sort of starter pony wanni children in order to see whether they're capable of loving something other than themselves.

That was actually part of the problem I had, I never thought of a pet as a. That's part of the argument Emily would make is that it's a

test child, but I just think you would treat them so differently. I've never made that argument.

What kind of pet do you want to get, Emily? Well, I want a cat. Yeah.

Of any age. Sure.

But I know Alex prefers dogs. So I would go for either.
I would go for each. A very opinionated audience.

And I do not think it would be a test child. I think it would just bring us joy.

This could decide everything, Emily. It could bring us joy when we have a child and give them a new pet.

Or give them a lifelong friend that they'll grow up. That baby isn't going to know what a pet is.
No, he wait till it's not a baby. That's the.

I want to make clear. Oh, I see what you're saying.
Yeah.

How old do you want their child to be before you finally get this dog or pet? I don't have an exact number, but like five, six? Oh,

that's a long event horizon.

When are you going to have children?

Well,

the plan that I was given a list of,

Emily recently quit her job because we're about to move. Where are you going to?

Montana. Oh, big sky country.
Yes. That's where we both, that's where we met and grew up.
Oh, you're going home? Yes, good. Basically.

To have children? No, but

you're a job being happy. Or just to postpone Emily's happiness as long as possible.

To deny her both children and pets while you figure out your spreadsheet. No, no.

I mean, it's a personal question, but she wants a pet, and you're saying no pets till we have kids. So I'm just trying to get a sense of what your time frame is here, Alex.
Right, right.

No, I would be happy with no pet ever, but I know that's important to her. So I will have a pet.

The order is the only issue I have.

Well, if you are interested in no pet ever, let me recommend cat.

That cat will immediately dislike you,

disdain you,

it'll sense that you dislike it, and it will stay the hell away from you unless it is peeing on something you own.

But you're going to be living in Montana. And I have a feeling that that cat's going to get eaten quick.

They're tough there. What's that? The cats are tough there.
The cats are tough there. Yeah, but what about those Montana lions?

What about those Montana catamounts and cougars? I don't know what's in Montana.

Huey Lewis of Huey Lewis in the News.

That's the cruel paradox of Montana is that you go there because you want to see Huey Lewis from Huey Lewis in the News because he lives there, but then it's so sparsely populated you never run into him.

Or Henry Winkler. He ends up keeping all that handsome handsome for himself.

Alex, have you broken the state of Montana down into a grid that you can cover each quadrant looking for Huey Lewis

that will increase your statistical probability of running into him and his wonderful eyebrows? That grid is called a series of hip-to-be squares.

Oh my God.

No,

no, no.

No, you're all fired. You're all fired.
Alexa! Alexa, play Huey Lewis in the news sports.

Oh my goodness. Where were we?

Amy, man, do you have anything else you'd like to add?

I disagree with your cat assessment.

Really? But I think if people don't like cats, the cat will sense it and will stay away. A cat is a slow burn.
It takes a long time to trust you, but when it does, it's very, very cuddly and loving.

Yeah. Because we had two cats, they were like all over us.
But we like cats. And she wants a cat.
Emily wants a cat and he doesn't want a pet.

I think this is the perfect compromise because the cat will leave him alone, but gravitate towards Emily. Right.
And then Emily will have a sweet little thing to lay in her lap while they watch TV.

Yeah. And everybody will be happy.
Right. And once you.
Just like, in my experience, when you have children.

And when you have your child, you know,

your hands are going to be full. You're not going to want to add extra feces handling into your life at that point, I'm sorry to say.
And I think

a cat is a good, low-maintenance animal for you to have in Montana. And when you have your little bundle of non-pet joy, your human child,

your cat will turn on both of you.

So So,

since it's gonna be a while before you have kids, well, I don't know how long it's gonna be. You haven't decided yet, right? No, we have not decided.
Okay.

In any case, I order that you get a cat and you name that cat Huey Lewis.

Please welcome to the stage Lisa and Mike.

Lisa

and

Mike.

Also, you guys have to get two rubber cat masks to wear.

Who brings this case before me? Who seeks justice here in the court of Judge John Hodgman? I do. That it would be Lisa.
And what is the nature of your dispute, Lisa?

Mike has a lot of CDs. Compact discs? Compact discs.
Or certificates of deposit.

It's a good question. It's a good question.
It is because certificates of deposit are useful. Right?

yet compact does take a lot of room in our house our house is uh under 1200 square feet we live in san luis obispo california super beautiful woohoo san luis

and uh

mike is a is a music aficionado he has a lot of also a lot of vinyl records which i have no problem with sure everyone loves vinyl records everyone

and um but or as we enthusiasts call them vinyls have you heard people calling them vinyls lately I've never heard anything. It makes me want to throw up.

Okay, so he's got a lot of CDs still. He does.
He has a.

And in fact, there's a,

we bought our house in 2006, and

I was just about to have a baby.

Where's that couple? I was just about to have a baby, and we didn't know anything about babies and how much space they take up and

in your life and stuff. About three cubic feet.
Serious.

And so there was a whole room that was like dedicated to like music and doing music type things. And there's a whole wall.
Like, what are we going to do with this wall?

And you had one room dedicated to your 35 cats.

Sure.

And so a whole wall

was dedicated to

some shelving for C Ds. So it's 2006, so people are still listening to C D's.
And like immediately people stopped listening to C D's.

But we still have this because Mike built the shelves and they're still there. And there's hundreds, thousands.
I don't know. No, it's not.
Well, all right. First of all, how many are there, Mike?

Probably between 500 to 1,000, maybe less.

I don't know.

Maybe, maybe.

Why? Maybe less, actually. Why have the CDs? What is the? I mean, because

vinyls, which is what I call them.

I mean, Amy Mann, vinyls are works of art.

Please don't use that term.

When you come home and you put on some really awesome sweet nills that you picked up at the flea market. Oh, my God.

The sound quality is so beautiful, and you get to look at the

big null cover.

That's a work of art. I hate it.

Honey, I'm going to Whole Foods. Can you pick me up some nils while you're there?

I hate it, and I can't wait to torture my husband with it tonight.

He's put out some of my favorite nils, I have to say. Thank you.
Yeah.

So I work hard on those nils. What do you think about? We should explain.
Amy is married to Huey Lewis from Hurry Lewis and Mid Lewis.

What do you think about a person in 2019 when this is being recorded, if you're listening in the far distant future,

who has 500 to 1,000 C Ds?

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. It's not, because I think the idea of is a C D useless or not is

a red herring. The issue is parity.
And

it's how much room do I have for my stuff, and how much room do you have for your stuff?

And is that equitable? It's not sort of arguing about, you know, look, I don't know, C D's may come back in, who knows? I probably not.

You know, we also, we put our C D's in those dumb binders, so we got like those lying around somewhere.

I remember when I thought that was really paring down. Yeah.

My husband has a lot of nils. Yeah.
And I just got into an argument with him about they're alphabetized. Sure.
And I had about.

Overall or by genre?

Both.

Yeah.

And I.

Where does he put Bossa nova? Because I feel like I put it in Latin, I feel weird about it. Because it's South American.
It's a jazz. Okay.
Thank you.

Yeah.

Stangat's Bossa Nova. That's, yeah.

I had about eight of my own vinyl rendition of my record Mental Illness, and I wanted to put it on the shelf

alphabetized in my section. Sure.

And he in the wife section? Really,

he really, really did not want me to do that. Why?

Because I don't, I guess he felt like it was like stock and not like part of his vinyl collection. He hadn't chosen.
Yeah.

He wasn't sure if he wanted to buy that nils yet. Yeah.

And I want to stress this is about

10 feet of vinyl. Right.
Like it's a lot. It's a lot of vinyl.
And I'm going to be able to do that. Should we be hearing Harry Facebook? an inch? Yeah.

As long as nobody calls my wife, I'm happy.

But the issue for me was just fairness. You have many, many feet of vinyl.
I have an inch of vinyl I would like to put on a shelf. That feels like it's fair to have, to make a space for you.

Yeah, I find in your favor for sure.

Now, I just want to make it clear that I made room for my wife's cousin Luke's vinyl. That's very nice.
It is very nice. I find in your favor.

Now,

Lisa and Mike, you're still here.

I didn't realize

how many

Nils aficionados were on the stage right now.

How many disputes arise from it? I did not think of the parody issue.

Is

Mike's CD collection crowding out stuff that you would like to display or taking up space that is otherwise needed for stuff that you have to pick.

Yeah, it's more about taking up space because we have just three small bedrooms and four people living in the house. Two cats, by the way.
Hey, hey, cats. Sure.

So, and so it's just, it's too much. You know, we have, you know, there's like several places around the house for all the nils.
Right.

And

so to have a whole wall of compact discs that are not played, and that's the whole thing.

When you live in a house that's so small

with kids, so 12 and 8, just so you can picture them too,

you have to sort of pare down.

So let's take a look. You send in some evidence.
Ooh, yes. And here is.

That's a lot of nils.

So it's a lot of nils. On the right-hand side, we have a photograph of the vinyl collection, including a pretty sweet copy of the original motion picture soundtrack to 2001 of Space Obsy.

I see a strategically placed. I see a paperback of the hit book Vacation Land.
Yeah, I know.

That's, yeah, on the left-hand side, there is a picture of Vacation Land by John Hodgman, and

nothing else as far as I can see.

That doesn't look like anything to me.

Yeah, I guess my concern is you have these shelves, but you kind of need more room for paperbacks of Vacation Land by John Hodgman.

No,

here are these shelves full of CDs, and of course all these photos will be available on the maximumfund.org, Judge John Hammers page on Instagram, Judge John Hammers.

And you have, you know, they're very,

you know, the rule of this court is the difference between a hoard and a collection is display. And insofar as,

if there is any way to tastefully display 500 to 1,000 CDs, this is about as best as you can do. Plus, you got a pretty sweet E.T.
head on the top shelf.

Although maybe, maybe

you have some weird rubber gloves on the top shelf as well. I won't admit.
I made that when I was 10. What, the ET head? Yeah.
That's a Mike Original?

Fantastic.

Mike, did you grow up to be a professional ET maker?

So

do you listen to the CDs a lot?

Yeah, I do. I pop them into the car.

Sometimes it's just more convenient to take that CD and put it in the car instead of having to pair your phone or hook up your phone and listen listen to Spotify or whatever. Sure.
Which we have.

Let the record reflect that Mike indicated technology.

Do they have...

Tell me if that... Is it just convenience or do they have meaning to you? Do they have sentimental meaning?

Yeah, I'm sort of old-fashioned that way, where I love the ritual of just... taking something out and popping it into the player, just like vinyl and just being able to look at the artwork.

Nils.

When you say just like vinyl, you mean just like vinyl, but way worse. Yeah, it's not as romantic as vinyl.
By the way, I just wanted to point out that the bottom two rows are,

there's a criterion collection there that I really love, and I just cannot part with it. There's no way.
DVDs. Blu-rays.
Blu-rays and DVDs. Blu-rays and DVDs.
Yeah.

Do you have F for Fake, the Orson Welles movie? Oh, I love that, but I don't have it. I want to get it.
But I got to ask her first. Would that be the last one that you ever get?

Oh, yeah.

Do you feel that you can pare some of this down in order to...

I mean, do you feel every one of those things is necessary? Amy Mann is up there somewhere. Well, obviously that's necessary.
That's obviously a keeper.

You should always.

If you'd like to buy eight copies of Amy Mann's Mental Illness on vinyl, I know where you can get one. I got it.
I know where you can get one. You can get eight, actually.

Do you feel you can pare that down? Sure. You do? Okay, because the reason I ask is that I'm not sure if you know this, but aside from

my podcast, I also have an award-winning Netflix show

where I help people tidy up their homes.

You speak Japanese, really? No, no,

I don't know why you would ask that question. This is my idea that I had.

It's called the

all-the-time sorcery of getting rid of junk

Using the Hodgemano method of

touching your compact discs and seeing if they electrify you with happiness or not.

And

I don't, what I see here is tidy, mostly tidiness. That middle shelf is kind of

junk. And that open cardboard box on top,

on the top shelf on top of those DVDs, like I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight.

I've just been thinking about that. What's up there in that open cardboard box? That's my wife's Christmas present.

Because this thing is so daunting to her that it scares her, I knew that she would not climb up to the top there to take a peek. Yeah, well, but I mean Christmas present.
Do you know? ET.

Also, ET, yeah.

That's no good. I mean, there is a little bit of

a teetering element to this. And,

you know, you mentioned you have cats. Do you have photos of the cats? There was one that I sent in.
Can we take a look?

Oh, we don't have it? Oh, we got rid of it. Jennifer burned it.

They're adorable. They're adorable.
I'm sure they are, but you know, how old are they?

Just about a year old. Oh, yeah, so they're young.
But then you go to the vet? Yes. Okay, because just as new cat owners, for both your sake and the previous couples,

in the first three years of life, the number one cause of cats' demise, are you aware of this? Being crushed by jewel cases.

Mike, I order you to do one thorough John Hodgemano method

clear out to get this thing down to a more reasonable size so you really have only the stuff you like. The nils you can keep, that's fine.

But you got to tidy up that shelf a little bit more so that your life can be a little bit more in balance in the Hodgemano way. Good.
Does the sound of a gavel?

Thank you, Lisa and Mike. Please welcome Mark and Alexis.

Hello, who brings this case before me? I bring this case against my wife, Alexis. And your name is Mark? Yes.
All right. And what justice do you seek in the court of Judge John Hodgman? That's me.

My wife has encouraged me to bake bread, but after this last summer, when the temperature was over 85 degrees, she ordered me to not bake bread if it's above 85 degrees due to the heat in the house.

Ah, okay. And how often do you bake bread? About three times a week.
Whoa, wow, that's pretty unusual.

You live in Los Angeles? We live around the corner from here. Oh, well, I'm glad we could make it convenient for you.

That's a lot of bread to bake in a largely ketogenic community.

We have a two-year-old who basically every morning only wants to eat Dada toast. Oh, man.

To the point that he has rejected Brooklyn Bagel, which is directly across the street from where we are, and has said, no, thank you. I want Dada toast.
Oh, that's very nice.

It's so great to feed kids because they're... They're so appreciative.
I'm so considered that they appreciate it.

It just makes you feel really useful for a minute. I notice you have a bundle wrapped up in your lap.
That's either either a loaf of bread or a cat.

It's a loaf of bread. Okay, let's take a look at that loaf of bread.

Oh, two different tea towels. Oh, thank you.
This is a bribe. How can you take it? Oh, I'll take it.

I'm going down to the dressing room now.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, will you

break off a hunk of that bread for me?

This is a handsome loaf.

What kind of loaf is it? What are we talking about? The New York Times for our speedy no-need recipe. Speedy no-need recipe.

Enjoy this, misophonias.

You know what? I disagree. I do need, I need it a lot.

It's good bread. Does he bake good bread? Yeah, he bakes good bread.
What's the problem? It gets too hot. It gets too hot.
We live in an old LA apartment that does not have air conditioning. And

we actually have a

unit built into the wall, but it's in the living room, which is two rooms away from the kitchen. And that one unit is supposed to cool the whole house.
Doesn't do it. Doesn't do it.

It does not do it the job. Do you rent or you own? We rent.
Okay. You should talk to your landlord about getting some better AC in there.
Yeah. Yeah.

Apparently, the landlord is here. Yeah.
No way.

Ha ha.

I'm not saying that that's a solution to your husband's manic bread baking. Right, right.

But that that would increase your comfort overall, correct? True, true. How hot does it get? How does it feel?

In the house in the summertime, at the peak when we were like having 100 degree days, it was about 99 in the house. So not a big difference from outside.

And do you get, when it gets too hot in the kitchen, do you get out?

Yeah, definitely.

I turn on the oven fan, which, you know, does a little something. Doesn't really do much.

Does it bother you, Mark, or are you just so

bread happy that you don't eat it? I really like bread. Are you baking it in the nude? Just to say, well,

sometimes in the underwear. Yeah.

He's not joking. You're not joking? No, no.

It gets really hot in L.A., and during the summer, sometimes you just hang out in the house in your underwear. Gross and sexy.

Have you ever stumble into the kitchen and see your husband baking his underwear and be like, this is what I signed up for?

On the occasion, yeah. Yeah, sure.
All right. You sent in some evidence, is that correct? We did.
All right, let's see this evidence. Oh!

It is a loaf of bread and a cat. Yes.

What is this meant to represent other than a visual bribe for Bailiff Jesse Thorne? This was the other loaf I baked yesterday. I baked one for you and I baked one for my family and my kid.

Well, it was chilly yesterday. You don't mind, you don't mind the bakery.
Oh, no, I don't mind it at all. Right.
So,

and the name of your cat?

That is Frida. Oh, okay.
Lovely. Fantastic.

Does she cuddle up with all your loaves before you?

No, we had another cat. I think the photo didn't show up.
We had another cat, an older cat, that used to actually sleep on the oven from time to time. And is that cat no longer? That cat has passed.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. We condoed that cat.
Oh.

That's actually.

Woo!

I thought he had a few more months. She was like, let's just, it doesn't bring me joy anymore.

I thought John was the king of making super dark jokes about cats dying on this podcast.

Well.

What would you have me, you want me to tell him to not, what's the max temp max internal temperature before the oven goes on in your house? If it could be 85 or lower. Also, it could just be a time.

I mean, that's one. And then other could be time of day.
So like professional bakers get up at like 2 in the morning to bake. Right.
Like the coolest time of the day.

And oftentimes he's baking at 6 p.m. when the house is like the hottest part of the day.
That's when you're supposed to be making dinner and relaxing at the end of the day. Mark,

I order you, when it's above 85, to get nude,

set your alarm for 2 a.m.

And give your wife a treat. That's the sound of a gallon.

Mark and Alexis.

Ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together and welcome back to the stage the great Amy Mann. Amy Mann.

From the twenty-second floor,

walking down the corridor,

looking out the future and dowdown

once you're more

While perspective lines converged

Rows of cars and buses merged

on the sweet green trees of

Liverpool

Like little bombs

or little pump hearts

shaking

back

that drives them all

and raises again.

Life just cannot

tears out

as a deluge than a drought,

as a giant mushroom cloud

in an exploded shell

inside a cell

of Atlanta's hotel.

From the 22nd floor,

found a notice on my door

while outside the sun is shining on

those little bones,

those little

hearts.

Life just can ever

tears out

less a device than

a drought

Less a giant mushroom cloud

in an exploded shelf

Inside a cell

of a Lenex O2

Inside a cell

Thank you so much.

Thanks to all of our litigants for sharing their cases with us. We have another show in Los Angeles coming up on June 6th.

If you're in the area and you want to have your own dispute heard on our stage, visit maximumfund.org/slash JJHO. Tickets are on sale now.
You can find the ticket link at maximumfund.org.

We've got a lot of great stuff lined up for the show, including musical guest Pete Fields. You won't want to miss it.

If you happen to be coming to Max FunCon, note that that is the night before Max FunCon, so why not add a day to your trip?

We also want to thank Amy Mann for playing some beautiful music on this show and for helping us dispense Swift Justice.

You can find her podcast with Ted Leo, The Art of Process, right here at maximumfun.org. Her latest album, Mental Illness, is out now wherever music is sold.

This show was recorded by Matthew Barnard, and our producer is the great Jennifer Marmar. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

MaximumFun.org. Comedy and Culture.
Artist Owned. Audience Supported.