Quid Pro Ho Ho Ho

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Quid Pro, ho, ho, ho, Ashley files suit against her brother, Josh.

Their family does a gift exchange for their Ukrainian Christmas celebration every January.

Josh has already opted out of participating in English Christmas gift giving.

He would also like to opt out of the Ukrainian Christmas gift exchange, but Ashley says he should participate.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

A little swallow flew in and started to twitter to summon the judge.

Come out, come out, O judge.

Look at the sheep pen.

There the ewes have yeened and the lambkins have been born.

Your goods are great.

You will have a lot of money.

If not money, then chaff.

And you have a dark, eyebrowed, beautiful bailiff, a little swallow flu.

Swear them in, Bailiff Jesse Thornton.

Ashley, Josh, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever?

Yes.

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he believes that Ukrainian Christmas is presided over by stop podcasting yourself host Dave Shumka.

Yes.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

You may be seated.

You guys feel that spirit?

Indeed.

You don't, Josh, but I know Ashley does.

That Ukrainian spirit, where here we are, it's still a holiday in the Julian calendar.

For to me, a summary judgment and one of yours' favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered this courtroom?

Ashley, let's start with you.

I'm going to go with Oprah.

Oprah?

Famous Ukrainian celebrity.

Yeah.

That would make sense, obviously.

I'm just going to put that in the guess book and we'll evaluate the wrongness or rightness of the guess in a moment.

Josh, what's your guess?

At first, it sounded I've never heard or read Charlotte's Webb, so I thought of it, but I know that's incorrect, so I don't know.

That'd be my guess.

Why did you guess that?

Like I said, I've never known the story.

So from what I understand, it's interpretation of almost like a mirror of real life.

Right.

It's called deductive reasoning, John.

He's heard other stories, and it's not those.

So it might be one that he doesn't know very well.

Yeah.

I presume that it was because Charlotte's Web features a spider named Charlotte who weaves a web, and spider webs are a very traditional Ukrainian decoration on the Ukrainian Christmas tree.

Isn't that why you made that guess, Josh?

Yeah.

That's exactly what I meant.

You guys, I spent some time on Wikipedia today reading up on Ukrainian Christmas.

Don't tell me I know more about Ukrainian Christmas than you do.

I mean, you might.

We'd know more about our history of the meal and the gathering of the family than we would of the

other smaller details of it.

Because we have our own traditions when it comes to Ukrainian Christmas.

We celebrate it.

The older relatives and uncles and aunties, they impress upon us the traditions, but it's traditions of our own.

Right.

And by the meal, you're talking about

holy evening dinner, then the 12 dishes that you eat.

Yeah, the 12 meatless dishes.

The 12 meatless dishes.

And then the caroling.

And also you bring in a big sheaf of wheat, right?

Yep.

What's that called again?

The wheat under the table.

The wheat under the table.

The didduck or the grandfather?

I'm probably mispronouncing this.

I'm just reading off of Wikipedia.

It's the sheaf of wheat that represents the wealth of wheat in the Ukraine and renewal for the new year.

Yeah, you're referring to like

the wheat that they have blessed when they bless the food.

Yeah, and then you just throw it under the table.

Well, as a tradition, they used to throw the wheat under the table so that the smaller children, they would hide prizes in them and presents for them in the wheat, and the smaller children would have to hunt for it.

How big is this wheat?

Yeah.

To open up a few sheaves of it, they'll go and gather it in the fall

during harvest.

And actually, which is surprising because it's at my auntie Helen's who doesn't

like the mess very much, but traditions are traditions.

So they've had that going on now for

five or six years for the newest generation that are of that age.

No mess like a wheat mess.

You guys are just freestyling some stuff then.

You're freestyling a wholesome new traditions.

This is just off the dome of your Auntie Helen.

No, well, that's one of the older traditions.

Like I said, a lot of the traditions that we recognize are of our own.

But I must say, in the last,

you know, 10 plus years, they've been trying to instill in us some of the original traditions, some of the things from their childhood.

I see, because they're, no, I'm not going to be grim about it.

Never mind.

We know what you miss.

As they're staring into the dark night of death, they want to

pass on some of the traditions that they previously had been fine neglecting.

Sounds about right.

First of all, all guesses are wrong.

We're going to get wrong.

We're going to hear this case.

But I want to clarify for listeners that when you are hearing this episode, it is January of 2019.

Depending on when this episode is released, it will either be just before or just after

Ukrainian Christmas.

Christmas in the Ukraine is traditionally celebrated on what we call January 7th, right, in the Gregorian calendar, because the Ukraine is an Orthodox Christian country and they still use the Julian calendar for religious holidays.

That's why we're talking about Christmas after Western Christmas is long gone and all the turkey has been eaten and all the fires have gone out and all the trees have been thrown away.

That's what's going on.

And the debate here is whether or not Josh is going to participate in Ukrainian Christmas or be a Ukrainian Grinch.

All this stuff is correct.

Yes or no, Ashley and Josh?

Yes, in that he doesn't want to participate in the gift-giving portion of Ukrainian Christmas.

I hear he wants to burn the wheat.

You know, that might be the next step he goes to.

I hear he wants to hide coal in the pierogies and burn the wheat and flip the table and say, I didn't come here to make friends.

I'm most worried that he'll report the under-the-table wheat to the revenue men.

It's not all aspects aspects of Ukrainian Christmas.

It's only the particular issue of the gift giving

that I

don't so much agree with.

Well, that is the crux of the case.

And before we start decruxing it, I know that there are many, many Judge John Hodgman listeners who are firing up their emails to write to me saying you didn't reveal the obscure cultural reference.

So hold your pedantic hands, listeners.

Would you be able to guess this reference if I gave you this musical clue?

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, didn't hit the high note.

Meow, meow.

I started too high.

Anyway, you know what I'm singing, right?

The meow meows of the bells, also known as what?

Ashley, Josh.

Oh,

I don't know.

I don't know what it's called.

It's called Shedric.

Oh, I don't know what that is.

You don't know the traditional Ukrainian New Year's song, Shedric?

Shedrik, Shedrik, Shedric, Voka.

More boards in Ukrainian.

My dad and aunts and uncles haven't gotten to that tradition yet to pass on.

Oh, really?

I thought for sure you guys were going to get this one because that song, The Carol of the Bells, is a rip-off of the Ukrainian

folk song that was arranged by composer and teacher Mykola Leontovich

in 1916, Shedrik,

about a little swallow that flies in at the beginning of the new year to say, you're going to make a lot of money and your sheep are going to sell at the market and you're going to be great and you have a beautiful dark-eyebrowed wife.

And then

Peter Wilhuski of NBC Radio.

ripped it off and turned it into Carol of the Bells as a Christmas Carol.

So there is something for your trivia night, everyone who's listening.

So now we get to the crux.

Let's start cruxing.

Ashley, tell me what's Josh's problem.

He is difficult.

Yeah, so up until this past year,

and growing up all of our life, we would get one gift at Ukrainian Christmas that we would open on Ukrainian Christmas Eve.

And that was sort of the bonus present after English Christmas had wrapped up.

Cool.

So

we have kept doing that even into adulthood.

And then as

our siblings have partners and children, and everyone still gets one gift.

And this past year, so in 2017, we finally recognized that that's a lot of work for my mom, who is the one who would get all the gifts.

So we decided to draw names amongst the adults so that we would get each other.

And at that point, Josh insisted that he wanted to opt out of the Ukrainian Christmas gift exchange.

And now, just to be clear, Josh, you have been nothing if not lovely and genial on this podcast so far.

So when your sister says that you're difficult, I mean, we stipulate that you're difficult for a Canadian, right?

Is Canada difficult?

No, it's not difficult.

It's just firm in my beliefs.

Well, you are in Canada, you're in Manitoba.

Yep.

And you're in Toronto.

Is that correct, Ashley?

Yes.

Fantastic.

All right, Manitoba, talk to me.

Why do you want to drop out of this gift exchange?

Well, you have to understand there's a couple of different things with that is that I don't do gifts.

Like for me or for if I was buying something for someone else, it wouldn't be as a Christmas or a birthday gift.

I would just buy it and give it to them on a random Wednesday.

I don't do organized purchases like that.

I feel that everybody has enough stuff.

And like, say, for my birthday, I don't get any gifts.

My parents don't buy me any gifts.

I don't do anything.

And that's entirely fine.

And you have to understand my dad is the same way.

Okay.

He doesn't see the importance of gift giving for the sake of the gift.

If it's something to be used or something that has purpose or like that

I could tell you how many gifts that I have that I've gotten over the years that never once got used that still have the tag on them that and and it just I don't feel

I urge you to not a good use of it might hurt some people's feelings if you oh no they all know I'll tell them quite honestly how I feel about it and it's not that I won't participate I'll be there when everyone else is opening their gifts I'll I'll help the the little kids like that my nieces and nephews with their you know cleaning up the wrappers wrappers and helping them and whatnot.

I'll participate.

I just don't need a gift.

Okay.

And the thing is, if I purchase one, then that means they need to purchase me one and that puts me right back into it.

So it's not so much that I don't want to buy a gift.

It's just I don't need someone to go out and purchase something for me that they think I need or that they think I want.

And then it's something that I don't and it.

just sits around.

So you'd rather not celebrate Christmas on the Gregorian calendar or the Julian calendar, the Joshian calendar, which is any random Wednesday you might give a gift to someone because you feel possibly.

Do you like jump out from behind a mailbox when you give the gift?

No, but that's ingenious.

I love that.

I just don't feel the need to exchange a gift.

That's not part of my Christmas.

I celebrate Christmas, the family aspects, the meals.

You know, I reluctantly play the cards because they all like to play cards and I'm not such a big fan, but I'll play

a game or two.

What game of cards are you playing?

Well, there's one of the good ones, have you ever heard of Circle 15?

No.

It's a very good game in the fact that you can discard, you get new cards, you can feel in control, and it's just a very entertaining game.

I love this game already.

I mean, you can discard, you can get cards, and you feel in control.

I think it's mostly the last one that appeals to me.

Because right now I'm basically like one of those

mining carts careening off the tracks.

Well, sometimes in games you get dealt the hand and you can't do anything.

It's the hands you were dealt.

Well, this game, it gives you a little bit of choice.

It's intoxicating just thinking about this.

And this is played with a regular deck of cards, or is it a special game like Unho or Magic the Gathering?

No, just a regular deck of cards.

A regular deck of cards, huh?

All right.

And you don't care for it, but you'll play it, is what you're saying.

Well, that's the thing.

Cards don't have the same thrill to me as they do to, it seems, the rest of the extended family and my immediate family.

Like, I'll participate though.

Like, it's not that I'm against Christmas, right?

I'm just against the idea of the presents.

And then, if you're giving lists, you're pretty well doing their shopping, and I'm giving a list, they're doing my shopping.

Well, I don't see the point in that.

Well, there, I agree with you, John.

I got to tell you something.

What

I still remember the thrill I got the first time I played cards with my family, and I've been chasing that dragon ever since.

What game was it, Jesse?

Pinnacle.

Did it make you feel in control?

Oh, I felt in control.

I could get new cards.

I could get rid of old cards.

Josh, I want to go back to something because we took a long walk down a side road with the Circle 15 card game.

You mentioned something, and I'm going to take the bait.

Name some of the garbage presents that your family gave you that you don't like.

Oh, yeah, this puts me right in the spot.

Yeah, well, you brought it up.

You opened the door.

Well, I've gotten gifts that for sports I don't play, that I've never showed any inclination to be inspired by or wanting to do better at or wanting to do more of.

I've gotten gifts that,

yes, a guy does need them, but they're not the kind that I would use.

You have to understand, there's an old saying on this podcast that specificity is the soul of pissing off your family.

So

you need to tell me, like, what gift was useless to you?

When you say a sports thing, you have to mention what kind of ball and who gave it to you.

Oh, no.

Okay, so a box of teas of like 250 golf teas

and a golf ball monogrammer.

Who gave that to you, Josh?

My older brother.

And granted, this was years and years ago, but it set the tone for how I feel about gifts.

Okay, tell me another specific thing.

Okay, so an example of something that it falls in that middle ground.

Say this is the better end of a gift.

A pair of nice leather like winter gloves that you'd put in your vehicle that, you know, if you got to deal with something outside for any more than two minutes, you get, you'd put these nice leather gloves on, right?

Yeah.

Look, I don't have to live in Manitoba to know what cold weather is like.

How it works.

Well, I'm from New England, a region of the United States.

But John, did you know that gloves are a thing you put in your vehicle?

Really?

Does I have a special box for it?

A box or a compartment where you can put your gloves?

But so say a very thoughtful gift, and yes, I can use them, but to this day, they're in the back seat of my truck with the tags on, still, you know, little plastic thing holding them together.

And I'm in construction, so I always have my work gloves.

I always have my coveralls and my boots, and my, you know, even if I'm driving somewhere to go see a movie or to take in a sports event or do whatever, I'm going to have my winter gear with me in the winter.

So

if I had to do something outside, if you need any beautiful driving gloves, you've got gloves.

And so, I mean, thoughtful gift.

And you know what?

One day eventually...

I'm going to say it's unthoughtful.

It was thoughtless.

No, no.

I mean, it had some Canadian dollars behind it, but someone should know.

You don't need that.

Well, no, it best intentions.

But the thing is, I feel that we all in this life, or at least for our family, we all have enough stuff.

Right.

So unless we really need it, I don't feel that we should be getting it.

Best intentions.

You know what road is paved with best intentions, don't you?

The road to Saskatchewan.

No one's going there.

I know.

I spent one night in Winnipeg and all people could talk about was how terrible Saskatchewan was.

Who gave you that terrible gift?

What dum-dum gave you that terrible gift of gloves?

Well, that's not very nice.

It was our mom, wasn't it?

I think I'm my mom and dad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ashley, I get it.

And don't get me wrong, like Ashley,

Ashley and Ain, my other sister, can buy good presents for me.

They'll get me presents that, like, they know, they could go to the bookstore and pick out random books.

They know what I would read.

But I also read a very wide variety of topics.

So it's an easier thing.

But I've got...

a dozen books pretty well on hand at all times that I have to read.

Right.

You're a builder, after all.

You've got a whole library in the back of your truck, of course.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfun.org, and they are all your favorites.

If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to maximumfun.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Colicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The braised short ribs, made in, made in.

The Rohan Duck Riders of Rohan, made in, made in.

That heritage pork chop that you love so much.

You got it.

It was made in, made in.

But Made In isn't just for professional chefs.

It's for home cooks too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made-in cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable.

uh than some of the other high-end brands we're both big fans of the carbon steel uh I have a little

carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

And I know that she can, you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

She can use it to braise if she wants to use it to braise.

It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

And it will last a long time.

And whether it's griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware, I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookware.com.

That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom to hear more of the case.

Ashley, Josh has gotten some bum gifts.

I mean, I can sort of see why he's turned off of this tradition.

That golf tea thing is weird, right?

But that was years ago.

Golf scars

don't go away easy.

I see that.

Go on.

Defend yourself, Ashley.

What do you care?

Why does it bother you if Josh doesn't want to participate in the gift exchange?

Because it's part of our traditions.

And like he said, traditions is traditions.

So

I get where with English Christmas, it is more fueled by sort of the commercial notion of Christmas and gift giving and all that.

But us participating and doing having a gift on Ukrainian Christmas is sort of more unique for our family as part of our tradition.

So I want him to keep participating in that.

And I think he's just being difficult because

he wouldn't even have to do anything except open a gift on that day and say, you're welcome if someone thanks him for one.

You would have to get a gift and receive a gift.

Yes.

But I would assist in getting the gift on his behalf.

Oh,

so he wouldn't even have to be actively participating in the lead-up to the exchange.

Well, let's talk about traditions, about Ukrainian Christmas.

We discussed a little bit about the wheat under the table.

You also sent in some evidence, which is an adorable family photo,

which you can all see if you're listening.

Over at the JudgeJohn Hodgman page at maximumfund.org or on our Instagram at instagram.com/slash judgejohodgman.

Here is a photo of your family in what I can only guess is either traditional matching Ukrainian dress

or an incredible coincidence

that you guys all happen to dress alike that day.

Tell me about what you're all wearing.

Yeah, so we're wearing our Ukrainian embroidered shirts that for some of us, we used to Ukrainian dance when we were younger so we had them from then but for everyone else they've been acquired so that we can all wear them to the dinner on Ukrainian Christmas Eve and it started where just our family like my dad and my mom and us would wear them but in the last however many years

our extended family also wears their shirts on Ukrainian Christmas Eve.

So there's about 25 to 30 people

in their shirts.

These are like sisters-in-law, and brothers-in-law, and nephews, and nieces, and things, or what?

Yes.

Well, it's our dad, his two brothers, and all their family.

So, who do we see here?

First of all, everyone's wearing beautiful white shirts with red embroidery, including the little kids.

Where are you guys in this photo?

Josh and I are flanking our mother in the back row.

So, my dad's sitting in the front, and my mom, who is a little bit height-challenged, is standing in the back back row.

Oh, so that's your mom and dad.

They're glove givers.

I don't like them.

Oh, now I know.

You said it, not us.

No, they're adorable.

Josh, you look difficult, Canadian style.

You look very nice, Josh.

Nice beard.

Okay, and Ashley,

you also look very happy and undifficult.

Who else do we got in this photo here?

So on Josh's side,

our sister Ain is sitting in the front, and her husband is standing in the back and they're holding their two daughters.

Nice.

And then on the side that I'm on, our eldest brother Luke is in the back row and his wife is in the front and they're holding two of their three children because since this photo was taken, they had another little one.

So it's already outdated.

The Ashley and Josh family, let's play the feud.

So what evidence are you sending in here other than adorableness?

Just that generally traditions are nice.

And just like the shirts, wearing the shirts that night was one of them, the gift exchange is another.

And I should also mention, like, I was home for Ukrainian Christmas this past year, but I moved to Toronto about seven years ago.

And so I don't get home very often for Ukrainian Christmas anymore.

So I don't get to participate in the meal and the shirts and the card game, but I still get the gift because in the past what's happened is my mom will still like give me a gift and wrap it.

And then I wait until January 6th and I open it in Toronto.

So it's one of those traditions that I still get to participate in, even though geographically I'm not there.

You took a very long walk in order to get to this destination, which is you want me to show Jesse Thorne a picture of a dog.

Yeah, oh yeah, that one too.

This is a Ukrainian Christmas gift that was sent to you and you took a picture of your dog on it, correct?

Well, it was just a gift for my dog's birthday.

It's not even a Ukrainian Christmas gift blanket?

No, but I only got Harley in April, so

she might get a gift this year.

And it just shows that gifts are nice and my mom.

has instilled in us because she gave us the blanket.

I'm striking this evidence from the record.

Okay, fine, but can you still show the photo?

John, I already struck it from the record.

I'm looking at the picture of the dog.

Yeah.

I think it copies from Linda Holmes' dog.

They do look alike.

Yeah.

This dog is copying Linda Holmes' dog.

Just because they're both greyhounds?

This is dog plagiarism.

Not dog plagiarism, Jesse.

Yeah, we already, I've already seen Linda Holmes' dog.

Remind me, Linda Holmes' dog has a great name.

It's just like a normal human name, right?

Its name is Brian.

That's a great name for a dog, even though I know about the family guy that's still a great name for a dog.

Oh, yeah.

You know what?

Fair is fair.

We'll let the listeners decide.

We're going to post side-by-side photos of Brian and Harley.

Yeah, Harley.

So the audience can see that Harley is what is known as a copy dog.

Well, if she's going to copy, she should copy only the best.

Those will be up on the show page at maximumfund.org on our Instagram as well.

So everyone can weigh in there.

But I think Harley is a nice-looking greyhound, and greyhounds are great dogs, and you should get them because

they're great rescue dogs, and they're hilarious.

All right, there's one thing that I did notice in this photo, that Josh is wearing an embroidered shirt.

He seems to be taking part in Ukrainian Christmas just fine.

Just fine.

Doesn't he, Ashley?

Yes, I would agree.

I have some other questions for you.

Are the quality of gifts different at Ukrainian Christmas compared to what you call English Christmas?

Are there different kinds of gifts?

They're monetarily value.

They're

less.

Smaller.

So, yeah, so it's just more about the gesture than about

the content itself of what the gift is.

So it's not so much about how many golf teas you give someone.

It's just that you gave them golf teas.

Exactly.

And this round robin, what whatever gift exchange you have where everyone draws a name out of a hat, right?

Do I understand that correctly?

Yes.

Well, I draw on behalf and inform everyone accordingly.

But that's not a Ukrainian tradition.

No, it was up until this past year, our our mom would handle all the gifts.

So Josh would accept a gift from her.

It's only in this past year when we're redistributing the responsibilities that he insists on opting out.

But there's nothing particularly Ukrainian Christmassy about giving gifts in this way.

This is just a tradition that you made up in your family.

Yeah, I mean, we have some like extended family who still do a lot more gift exchange for Ukrainian Christmas or none at all.

So it just depends on

different families.

We do one gift.

Tell me what else you do at Ukrainian Christmas that might not be done at Western Christmas.

Well, for us, that's the time when we get together with my dad's side of the family.

So we don't do that at Western Christmas, English Christmas.

And

I don't know, Josh, what do we do that's so special besides the shirts and the food?

So it's my dad, his two brothers.

It's their immediate family.

So it's all of us

on Christmas Eve.

And then on Christmas Day, where we celebrate it is at the younger brother's place.

And the wife's family comes as well because they're Ukrainian.

Okay.

So that's why we do our Ukrainian shirts as a family on Ukrainian Christmas Eve because the next day it's our family plus Auntie Helen's family.

So it's a larger gathering where we'll usually do a couple of Ukrainian Christmas carols and we always say our grace and everything like that.

And it really falls into like I said what we've made for our own traditions as well as trying to reinitiate some of the older traditions to us as well can you sing a Ukrainian Christmas carol right now please there's some great recordings out there because I am not a singer at all I did granted when I was younger like when I was

12 to 14 probably

on Ukrainian Christmas Day we'd actually get out of school a group of us because we'd have practiced and we'd go and they'd take us house to house to some of the older ukrainian people that grew up with caroling and we'd go there we'd sing them carols they'd have you know like a little snack or some dainties some of the the old-timers would have you know a a shot of homebrew for you and i grew up with those traditions right did your sister do any of that

uh my older one did.

I don't know.

You know who I'm talking about, Ashley.

I don't care about your older sister.

I think I did one year.

One year.

But it's sort of, I'm on the younger end of the generation, so it was trailing off.

Right.

You never went to sing around to those old timers because they're all dead now and that tradition's over.

You said it, not me.

Well, and there, and there used to be carolers, like when we'd be at, you know, our Ukrainian Christmas supper, there would be a group of carolers that were going around and they'd come and they'd sing for us, ringing the bell and, and you'd give them, again, a snack.

Usually they're doing it on behalf of a church.

you'd give them a donation to the church and it is trailing off like a lot of those traditions are being lost so it it is you know up to us to carry on those traditions but the one thing i was going to note is that up until last year our tradition was mom bought us everybody one gift so What she's talking about with gift giving is actually a different tradition.

It's a brand new thing.

It's not a tradition because they started it last year.

We should be like the second annual gift gift derby or gift, you know, whatever they want to call it.

Has anyone else in the family commented upon Josh's unwillingness to accept or receive a present at Ukrainian Christmas?

They have acknowledged it to be the case, but given his history of opting out of English Christmas gifts and birthdays.

And

let me be clear in my lack of generosity.

It's not just Christmas.

You make it sound like I'm out, I'm the screws of the situation.

It's not just Christmas.

I don't want to give anything to anyone ever.

Exactly.

Well, when she told me about the podcast, I made no complaints.

I've never listened to a podcast.

I've never had any inclination to be part of a podcast.

But I knew it was something important to her, so I made the effort.

That's the kind of things that I do.

Rather than buying a gift or talking on the phone six times a year, I'm willing to go and do things as much as possible.

Six times a year?

That's once every two months.

I know some people that talk less than that to their siblings.

Well, Josh, I do appreciate your gracious willingness to engage with a podcast.

I hope you don't find this new technology too terrifying.

I recently agreed to leave my cabin in the woods.

I have obtained a word processor in lieu of my manual typewriter.

Welcome to the world of podcasting.

Do not worry, the train is not going to come through the screen and run you over.

But I appreciate your kind gesture.

Let me ask you some questions before I retreat to come up with my verdict.

Does this bug your mom and dad, Josh?

My dad, absolutely not.

He knows exactly where I'm coming from.

He'd probably be on the same board if my mom didn't keep him in line.

But mom has already made it clear.

that it does not bother her and whether she's lying to me or not i can't tell but it does not bother her that I don't participate in the gifts as long as I'm participating when they're doing the gifts and I have no problem participating in the fact that I'll be in the room and I'm not going to sit there and like humbug and be the Grinch.

I have nieces and nephews that are opening gifts.

So I'll interact with them.

And as they're opening their gifts, I'll clean up the paper and open the boxes for them.

And you know what?

That'll bring me just as much joy as a present would.

Why do you think it bothers Ashley so much?

I think that my mom has regretted they stopped doing sibling gifts.

Like, I've run a survey now since I knew we were doing this and asked, like, so many people whether they do sibling gifts of people of different age groups and everything like that.

And the majority don't.

And my mom has said, though, that she regrets when her and her sisters stopped buying gifts for each other.

And they've actually recently started buying gifts again for each other.

I see.

So I think that's prejudiced Ashley a little bit to the, you know, we have to keep it going.

You'll, you'll, you know, you'll regret it later if you stop idea.

Are you at all concerned that your mom and her sisters might not need the gifts that they receive?

I could bet you money.

They don't need the gifts.

And it's not so much need or

like I just can't see

if we're making lists, which they do already, they make a list for English Christmas and Ukrainian Christmas of idea gifts.

And it's like, if I'm giving a list of what I want, I'm pretty well giving you a shopping list, and then you're sharing your shopping list, and we're just doing everybody else's shopping.

And so, I don't necessarily feel that that has the same impact as, you know, a surprise present.

Would you agree that there is other value to gift giving in excess of the direct value of the item given?

To some people, yes, I agree with you.

Ask Ashley that question about my dad and see what her answer is.

Okay, Ashley, that question.

Specifically for dad.

Sorry, what was the question?

The value of gifts.

Does your father believe that there is value in gifts beyond the direct value of the item given?

I don't think he would admit to it, even if he did believe there was sentimental value.

With that said,

even if he doesn't associate personal value, he still participates in the gift exchange by letting pretty much my mom help get a gift that he then provides.

So he's still willing to participate, even if he doesn't feel personally attached to it.

Well, that's what you're suggesting that you're going to do for Josh.

Why do you want to be Josh's mommy?

I want him to keep participating.

Why do you want to be Josh's mommy?

I don't want that.

Are you sure?

Does Josh need a mommy?

I'm going to say no.

Well, I don't know.

Josh, do you have anyone in your life?

Are you just out there podcastlist on the road with all the gloves you need?

I am single.

It's not that I can't buy the gift.

I just

by opting out, I believe.

No, we all understand your philosophy, Josh.

You've made it very clear.

You've painted for us a beautiful picture of your spreadsheet.

You are a rock.

You are an island unto yourself with a moral code of your own.

We understand.

You're out there on the plains of Manitoba building homes with all the books and gloves you need.

You need nothing else.

And golf teas.

And golf teas, yeah.

Do you worry about your brother out there all alone?

Are you afraid that if I rule in his favor, that this is just the beginning of a slow drift away into weird Manitoban mountain man-ness?

I mean I think I have to accept if he's even partially there already

but

no I mean like he is good he it's true he does do other things that are gift-like actions so no one discounts those behaviors and that he's willing to do things for the family I would just like him to be willing to do this for me.

All right, Josh, I need you to either leave the room or cover your ears because I have to ask Ashley two very important questions.

Ashley, if I were to rule in your favor,

you're going to get Josh a gift and you're going to get him a gift to give to someone else.

Yes.

What are you going to get?

Gloves are out, so are podcasts.

I was thinking

to get him maybe a copy of Vacation Land as a memento of this podcast.

I happily rule in your favor.

Thank you very much for being on this Judge Stein Hodman podcast.

And what would you get for him to give away?

Same.

Well, I've same, same thing.

Yeah, same, exact.

Two copies.

And if not that, then what?

It would be for who I have picked for the draw, which is my sister-in-law.

And it would be a nice candle and a gift card.

All right.

I think I heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to climb underneath my desk and roll around in my wheat pile and look for the gift of my verdict.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Ashley, how are you feeling about your chances?

Not totally optimistic, except that Josh is being weird, so maybe it'll just rule in my favor because of it.

I don't know if you made an incredibly compelling argument with that gift idea of a gift card and a nice candle.

It's the gesture.

It doesn't have to be specifically about each year in and out, the quality.

Have you ever heard that Todd Berry album where he talks about going to the body shop and deciding it should be called Thoughtless Gift Warehouse?

I haven't, but it doesn't seem wrong.

Josh, how are you feeling about your chances?

I'm very optimistic.

I'm hopeful.

And you say, I have to publish your manifesto verbatim, or

we'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back.

It goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So, let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So, I didn't mean to be cruel about the elders in your Ukrainian-Canadian community passing away and taking with them the traditions that Josh at least grew up with.

I didn't mean to be overly dark in suggesting that your parents are trying to renew these traditions because they themselves see the darkness looming before them.

I obviously was dark and cruel, but I didn't mean to be.

Only to acknowledge that, you know,

Christmas

or

Saturnalia or Sol Invictus or whatever you want to call it, and whenever your calendar acknowledges it, it predates

Christianity by far.

It was a celebration and continues to be a celebration of the winter solstice, the the longest night of the year,

in which we kindle some light, either figurative light, which is the gathering of family and enjoying a feast to remind each other that we will survive this and to remember those who have passed before us, and kindling often a literal light, like turning a tree into a terrible fire hazard

by lighting it up with electricity or fire.

And, you know, these traditions

seem whimsical and fun, but they are important

in that they provide continuity, both within a community in the dark and cold places of Earth.

I'm talking about Manitoba, and I'm looking at you too, Saskatchewan.

You're not getting out of this unscathed, the Ukraine.

But also within a family, you know, which, let's face it, we only have a certain period of time on Earth together.

And this is one of the ways that we kindle continuity and memory.

And I think it's very valuable and not something that you would laugh off lightly because you've already got enough gloves.

That said,

Josh already has enough gloves.

And I almost threw you out of this courtroom when he revealed that his brother and yours actually gave him a bunch of golf tees.

Because that is an offense.

And frankly, Ashley, your suggested gift of a a nice candle.

Hmm.

That's junk.

That's junk.

I like candles.

Josh, I want you to know that there is a lot in your philosophy that I agree with.

Gifts, especially when people refuse to be imaginative in their gifts and to think about what another person might like, but instead

Everyone gives each other their shopping list, as you so aptly put it.

It really does take the purpose out of gifts, which is to show another person that you're thinking about them and that you care about them.

That is the purpose of gifts, right?

It is the gesture.

It is the gesture of kindness.

It is to say, I see you, I recognize you, and I know that you like the Hartford Whalers.

And that is why Jesse Thorne always sends me a little Hartford Whalers thing around this time of year.

And it's so touching to me, Jesse.

And I always feel so awful because I never get you anything and I'm a terrible person.

I apologize.

But Jesse Thorne, at Ukrainian Christmas, let me just say, my friend, I love you.

And Jennifer Marmor, a Ukrainian Christmas, I love you too.

Because even that is a gesture that is not easy and costs something.

I feel like the one to Jen kind of cheapened the one to me.

You just don't know Jen as well as you know me.

Yeah, well, I'm also getting you a scented candle, Jesse.

Sorry.

Don't forget the gift card.

You know, even a gesture such as that, it costs a little bit to be vulnerable in a moment.

And in some ways, I think, is a more valuable thing to give than

gloves.

One thing I can say is that your sister has already been incredibly generous,

as she has given you, and you have received, the gift of podcasts.

I think you'll enjoy them as you're driving around Manitoba.

I can recommend a number of podcasts, and they're all available at maximumfund.org.

No, you know what the gift was, actually, is the conversations that I've had about podcasts, explaining to everybody what's going on.

That has been the joy.

Are you finding that there are a lot of people in Manitoba who also have never heard of a podcast?

No, they know podcasts.

Right.

But that, like, say, explaining, you know, who you are and what your podcast is about.

And, and, you know, I will tell you that there's probably 50 to 100 people now that will listen to your podcast when this airs that might listen to the week after, right?

So it's been an entertaining venture in that regard.

Thank you for being

the Johnny Judge John Hodgman seed of Manitoba.

I appreciate your spreading the word.

That is a gift unto me.

Okay, so, but you see, the point is gifting is not merely exchange of property.

It is a gesture.

And it's an important one and not one

to easily and casually sit out and cross your arms and go, fooy,

fooey on you, materialist Canadians.

But actually, that's not what he's doing.

I'm hearing what he's doing.

He's wearing the shirt.

He's down on the ground playing with the kids.

He's cleaning up wrapping paper.

He's being of help.

Could he be of more help?

Perhaps, I don't know.

I think

that if gifting of things

and receiving of things

is not something

that Josh feels good about,

then he should and must express gestures of generosity in a different way.

And that might be taking a card

and when you get the name of the person, Writing down a few things that you appreciate about that person

and also apologizing for not getting them anything.

That would be a very gracious way to handle this, and I invite you to do so.

But it is your choice.

I'm finding in Josh's favor.

He may exempt himself from this tradition, which after all is not a tradition, as he pointed out.

It is not a family tradition as yet.

Nor is it, for that matter, a Ukrainian Christmas tradition.

Which, by the way, Ashley, you guys need to get better at this stuff.

You got to be able to sing some of these carols again.

Maybe you guys should go.

I'm actually ordering you guys to go caroling together

this Ukrainian Christmas around the neighborhood.

If I could knock on doors for Antonio Delgado in Kingston, New York, you can go and sing some nice songs and bring along your lovely family.

It'll make your parents so happy.

And that will be a nice gift to them.

But Josh, this new tradition is just be helpful around the house, do the dishes, clean up,

help everybody else.

You know what also people don't like to do in these gift exchanges?

Get up and walk the present over to the other side of the room to give to the person.

That's your job now.

You have to hand out all the gifts.

And look each of your family members in the eye when you do it and say, I love you.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Josh, how do you feel?

I feel good.

I get what he said.

I understand.

I understand where everyone was coming from.

And so, like I said, I'm happy that he ruled in my favor.

Ashley, how about you?

I accept that this is pretty much where I started before this when he was refusing to participate.

So

I tried.

Well, now he has to apologize and actively do something.

That is true.

And what he will get is a defender from me if anyone anyone else suggests he needs to participate, I will accept the ruling.

Well, Josh Ashley, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In a minute, we'll dispense swift justice.

But first, our thanks to Travis Pelham Boozer for naming this week's episode Quid Pro Ho Ho Ho.

If you want to name a Judge John Hodgman episode, like us on Facebook.

That's where we ask for for your name ideas.

You'll also get a little sneak preview of what's coming up on Judge John Hodgman.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H O and check out the Maximum Fund subreddit to discuss this episode.

And we're on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman.

Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff.

This week's episode was recorded by Andrew Yankuski at Precursor Productions in Winnipeg and by Galen Weston at Rose Room Recording in Toronto.

Our producer, the ever-capable Ms.

Jennifer Barmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Are you ready, Judge John Hodgman?

I am ready, Bailiff Jesse Thornton.

This is coming from Roy.

I think the only reason the journey song Don't Stop Believing made a comeback is because of the ending scene of the Sopranos.

My friend Tom disagrees with me.

Who's right?

Don't call it a comeback, quoth LL Cool J.

That song never went away.

It's a classic song.

Now, do I think that it enjoyed a resurgence in popularity because of that controversial closing scene of the Sopranos?

Sure.

Why not?

You're both half right.

Roy's wrong.

Don't stop believing.

I never stopped believing, and neither did the rest of culture.

Can't put everything on the Sopranos, but in honor of that famous scene, producer Jennifer Marmor just cut to black right

maximumfun.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist-owned.

Listener supported.