Small Names Court

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Small Names Court, Mara brings the case against her brother Adam.

They disagree on the proper way to pronounce their Italian surname.

Mara uses a pronunciation that the rest of their family uses.

Adam uses the proper Italian pronunciation.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

So you know, Jesse, I'm actually a hodigaman.

Oh, I didn't know that.

I was born a hodogaman.

My father's a hodigaman.

My brothers and sisters are hodogamins.

I'm one of 11 kids.

Half of us are hodigamans, and half of us are hodgmans, because my father said you can choose what you want.

So I chose Hodgman because I am essentially a pretentious person.

Jesse Thorne, please swear the man.

Mara and Adam, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he pronounces all surnames Smith?

I do.

Yes.

Very well.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Thank you, Bill Smith.

Mara and Adam, you may be seated.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered the courtroom?

Mara, let's start with you.

Why not?

Was it Stephen Colbert?

Was it Stephen Colbert?

Is that an answer or a question?

That's my best guess based on his incredible number of siblings.

Let's put that into the best guess book.

Yeah, I mean, unless you want to go with your second best guess.

I like best guesses.

Okay.

All right.

So, Adam,

now it's down to you.

I am also going to guess Stephen Colbert, but I'm going to get more specific.

I'm going to bet that that's probably in some kind of GQ interview at some point, just because that makes sense, and hopefully, specificity will help me win that.

Trying to lock it down to a very specific interview.

Which interview?

Some kind of GQ interview.

Some kind of GQ interview.

Some kind of GQ interview.

What he means is either like a feature interview or a Q ⁇ A formatted interview.

Short front of the book.

Something that goes next to a pictorial.

That's right.

Well, let me just put this in here and,

oh my goodness, did you have a guess, Jesse?

No, I have no guesses.

You want to guess Stephen Colbert?

Yeah, I'll go ahead and I'm going to guess Stephen Colbert in an interview in Esquire magazine.

Some kind of interview in Esquire magazine.

Well, all guesses are right.

Not right enough for me.

Thankfully, I found, of course, it is Stephen Colbert talking about how he chose to pronounce his last name, which had been traditionally pronounced Colbert when he was growing up in South Carolina, I believe.

That's right, South Carolina?

That sounds right to me.

Yeah, I think that's right.

If I'm wrong,

I bet you I'll find out.

Yeah.

When he moved to Chicago, he took the French pronunciation of his name, Colbert, at his father's.

If not urging, then at least advanced permission.

And it has been so ever since.

You were all correct that it was Colbert.

I'm sorry that it was so easy.

But I am grateful that it was not in Esquire magazine, nor was it in GQ magazine.

But in fact, this particular quote came from Stephen Colbert's interview with Father Thomas Rossica on Witness.

That is the weekly talk show on the Salt and Light Network.

Oh.

The YouTube channel of the Salt and Light Catholic Media Foundation.

I immediately presumed it was a YouTube channel dedicated to those rock salt lamps,

sort of vaguely pink ones.

Yeah, exactly so.

You buy in the Korean home goods store?

I thought it was the long-rumored fifth episode of Acid Salt Heat on Netflix, but no.

Wow.

And I love Stephen Colbert.

He is a hero, obviously, of mine.

Although, you know, even your heroes disappoint you, Jesse.

Remember when Frank Miller, the artist and writer of The Dark Knight Returns in 1986, went down a deep far-right reactionary conspiracy theory hole after 9-11?

He's since come out of it, but he was down there for a while.

Disappointing.

So is the case.

Stephen Colbert, my hero, thinks a hot dog is a sandwich and

is sub-tweeting me on his show constantly.

I'm sure it's in order to bother me, personally.

Mara and Adam.

It says here, you are

respectively.

Mara, you are 30.

Adam, you are 28.

You do not live together.

You live.

Wait a minute.

Are you not a couple?

Has this happened finally?

Did we finally get around to a non-spousal couple?

We have honest to goodness siblings.

You are honest to goodness siblings.

Yes, my wife could not make it despite also siding with Mara.

Oh, your wife sides with Mara over this dispute.

So, Mara, you bring the case.

You say that your brother, Adam, 28, lives in Buffalo, New York.

says your shared last name incorrectly.

Explain what you mean.

So Adam got married earlier this fall and about a month before his wedding I got a text message from his wife saying something to the effect of do you know that your brother says your name wrong

It turns out at some point in college a couple of Adam's friends took Italian classes

and after they took their Italian classes he started pronouncing our last name differently and has just gone undetected for the last last like six years or so.

He was out in the world for six years saying the family name differently and you only found out because he's getting married to this woman and she snitched on him.

Basically.

It was the first time that he was forced to say his last name in front of the rest of us.

Oh, that must have been a fun intervention.

It happened during his wedding rehearsal.

Oh no.

So are we going to say your last name here on the podcast?

Are you guys, I mean, you know, the Judge John Hodgman listeners are the best in the world.

They're not going to find you and stalk you.

I have no fears.

Yeah, I think the only way that you can grasp how incredibly minute this argument is is if we actually say it.

Right.

We could have done like Smith and Smythe.

But as I say, the Judge Sean Hodgman listeners are wonderful.

They're not going to hunt you down and stalk you.

They might say that you're using commas wrong,

but otherwise, you'll be fine.

So go ahead, Adam.

Say your first and last name the way you like to say it.

My name is Adam Pelletieri.

And Mara, say your first and last name the way you like to say it.

My name is Mara Pelletieri.

Pelletieri versus Pelletieri.

Yep.

Right on.

Is this name of Italian origin?

Yes.

I see.

Well, all right, now, listeners, you remember how I complimented you?

Well, I meant it, so, and I hope that distracted you from writing your letters right now.

Because, yes, I know.

I know.

This is very similar.

To an earlier case of Judge John Hodgman.

Jesse, do you remember?

Of course not.

Well, me neither.

But a vague memory came back.

Did we not hear this case before?

Was this in the form of a note from our producer, Jennifer?

No, I remembered it, right, Jennifer?

She's nodding.

She's nodding.

Yeah.

It was verdict number 11, number 11, in 2010 in the case of I Say Martucci, you say Martusi, in which two sisters, honest to goodness siblings, also disagreed on how to pronounce their name of Italian origin.

We've been doing this show now for almost nine years.

Yeah, the Tooch was one of those litigants.

I remember the Tuchel.

I remember the Tooch now.

It comes back to me.

I remember the Tooch.

Carol Martucci, the former bookkeeper of Maximum Fun.

Yeah.

She ran the books for Maximum Fund and her church.

Oh, that's, oh, I didn't know that.

I did.

That's really nice.

Well, that was back when we were stacking the decks with Max Fun employees.

Yeah.

And you were hiding it from me, apparently.

Okay, that's fine.

Hello to the Tooch and to the Toos and to all of the Martucci's Martusis.

I hope you're out there.

It's not often that we get a case where it's like, oh, we did this already.

We work really hard to mix it up.

But here you are, Mara and Adam.

You are the first, to my knowledge, test case of a case that was already settled before.

Do I remember what I said before?

Absolutely not.

Nor do I.

However, I didn't even remember that the case occurred.

I know.

Well, luckily, we have Jennifer Marmor.

She went back into the archives.

to review my verdict, and she is keeping that a secret from me for now.

So we're going to hear this case.

I am hearing it for the very first time.

And it's like a memento situation for me.

And we will see at the end if my new verdict lines up with my old verdict, meaning that I am a consistent giver of the law, or else they do not match, meaning I am just an internet dilettante, easily swayed by whether I like one person better than the other one.

So here we go.

Pelletieri versus pelletieri.

Mara, do I understand correctly that Adam is the only person in your family to have gone rogue in this way?

He is.

So everyone else has come to the general consensus that if you were to pronounce this the way Italian is supposed to be pronounced, that Adam would be, and he will delight in telling you, technically correct.

And I promise he's going to hit technically really, really hard.

But the entire rest of the family, like we've...

both lived in the United States for 100 years and also, like so many other families who immigrated during that time, ended up up with a bunch of different spellings of our last name.

So there's this kind of family legend where five brothers all moved over at the same time, all pelearies, walked away with five different spellings that they say more or less the same way.

So the different spellings and even like whether or not that I even exists is sort of a function of government rather than like of peleari family choice.

To dispute that, though, I would argue that

our grandfather did, in fact, have his name spelled differently at birth, and then he got it reverted later in his life to being the one with all of the beautiful I's and T's as we know and love it today, so that we can properly pronounce it one day down the road.

He gave us this gift.

The syllable that the two of you disagree on, can you spell it as it's currently spelled in your name?

Just the part that you differ on the pronunciation of.

It's T-T-I-E-R-I.

So that's the original original, right?

P-E-L-L-I-T-I-E-R-I.

Yeah, there's two T's in there, but

we have a lot of bonus letters.

Yeah, okay.

And it was changed.

I mean, indeed, you sent in some voluminous text exchanges

between you folks and your larger group of family having fights over this.

Yeah, well, Adam's the only one having a fight.

Well, no, but you bring the case, Mara, so don't sell yourself short.

Fair.

Adam is trying to get back to his original roots.

What part of the boot are you from, buddy?

We are from Sicily, originally, our people.

Oh, boy.

Okay.

Whatever you want to do, it's fine.

We're great.

It's great.

You've already bought this judge.

Okay.

What do you know about your name and your heritage?

I know that our people are from a small town in Sicily called, I think it's Grazi.

Grate.

Gratte.

Yes, which probably doesn't help my case on being able to be the one to properly pronounce Italian.

It's a mountain volcano-ish town that was largely focused on mining.

And then they came back to America in the early-ish 19 teens, I believe.

21.

21.

Oh, man, she's lapping you.

Oh, man.

This isn't good for me, is it?

Do you know what pelletieri means?

Does it mean like a stonemason or internet judge or bailiff?

Is it an occupational name?

Yeah, coarsely it's leather worker or tanner.

Sure.

In that area?

Okay, that's good.

You did that much, at least.

And this affectation came to you while you were in college and your friends were taking Italian, but did you take Italian?

I did not take Italian, and very few of my friends took Italian.

They, in fact, took Italian diction.

So very few of them are actually fluent Italian speakers.

They are opera singers.

Oh, I see.

So it's just like how to say the words rather than what the words mean?

They say sort of like the class that they gave to Gerard Depardieu before my father the hero so he could memorize his English lines phonetically.

Right, okay, I understand.

That's really cool.

All right, they're opera singers.

Are you a musician of any kind?

Yes.

So I went to college.

I studied sound recording and also applied euphonium performance, like all profitable people do.

To what do you apply euphonium performance?

Rarely.

Friend alienation?

What is a euphonium?

I don't know what that is.

It's like a small tuba.

It's like a baritone horn, but it has a conical bore.

Oh, a little tuba.

Did you know what that was?

Well, I mean, yeah, you didn't know that it's a baritone horn with a conical bore?

Do you rock the euphonium?

I do.

So I play more baritone these days.

I teach a drum and bugle core.

There's just not much call for the soprano you found here.

I think that's called a soprano sex phone.

Got it.

So you teach a drum and bugle core.

Teach a drum and bugle corps?

Yes.

I like that.

What do you teach them?

Songs?

What grade level are we talking about?

It's a non-school related competitive group.

So

we run during the summer on the weekends, primarily April to early September.

It's a competitive field show kind of thing.

I teach visual these days.

I teach band kids how to march and dance.

That's awesome.

Is this your full-time job or just a passion?

No, this is just a passion.

I work at a university, not teaching.

Do the people in your band do cool showband stuff, like special dances and playing I Got Five on It by the Loonies?

We do teach special dances, but we

a lot of those pop songs are very expensive.

So we

play more classical these days.

Let's take a quick break and hear about another wonderful show provided to your ears by maximumfun.org.

We'll be back in just a second on Judge John Hodgman.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

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Yeah, I'm talking about entree bowls, but you know what?

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Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom to hear more of the case.

Mara, your brother's adorable.

I know this is really going to work against me.

He's got cool hobbies.

What are your hobbies?

Anything that you can compete with applied euphonium and marching band drilling?

I truly do not have an interesting hobby.

Maybe your hobby is just getting up in other people's biz.

It functions like a hobby.

So what do you care if your brother is pelletiering it?

So I think last names are like a really important

tool for family unity.

We all grew up in the same town that our family has lived in for a long time.

And that town is?

It's in upstate New York, outside Rochester.

Okay, that's fine.

Got it.

So we all grew up in the same town with all of our cousins, and my brothers and I, like, we all went through the same high school.

And there was kind of a big enough horde of us that being part of the just giant Pelletary family was a thing.

You guys are running things up there, upstate.

Like running things in the way that a math leet can run something.

All right.

No one crosses the Pelleteri math family.

Not unless they want very spotty puff paint on their Math Olympia t-shirt anyway.

Okay, so you feel like he's dishonoring the heritage and the legacy of the Pelleteris

of upstate New York and running back through time to the heritage of the Sicilian Pelletieres with whom you have no connection anymore.

Yeah, if he were to change his first name, I feel like that would be entirely his business.

But the fact that it's also just him, that his wife also disagrees with him and he's the one person saying our name differently, especially since it's a way that we have to regulate, like the rest of us correct people when they say our name the way that he's saying it.

I think he makes a big show of like saying that he's technically correct, but he's also said privately that this is really like the path of least resistance for him.

How is it the path?

I don't understand how it's the path of least resistance.

When he's interacting with people outside of the family.

Like when people read our last name, if they hit every letter, they'll usually say it the way that he says it.

Is your last name spelled with that extra I in it, but it's just not pronounced?

It's a silent I?

Yeah, we just don't say it.

Right, right, right, right.

So you're correcting people if they say pelletieri.

That would be a reasonable mistake to make.

Well, in American English, John, I don't mean to lecture you, I-E is pronounced E, as in cheese or trees, T-R-I-E-S, or cheese, C-H-I-E,

Z.

Z-E.

I didn't realize that.

You know, I went deep into my Italian diction class and never kind of came out of it.

I understand.

So, Mara, is Adam just being pretentious, do you think?

Kind of.

I think he thinks he's being really clever.

Like, when he introduces himself, do me an imitation of him.

You know, how does it sound when he introduces himself?

I mean, his introductions are still extremely friendly.

Like, he's a really friendly guy.

It's not like when he started pronouncing the I, he also started carrying like a monocola and a pocket watch.

That's not the pretension that I'm talking about.

I mean, like, is he pretending to be a continental European?

Oh, my name is Adam Pelletier.

Hello.

No, no, not so much.

Adam, Mara revealed that

your parents first heard your alternate pronunciation of your name at your wedding rehearsal dinner.

What happened and how was their reaction?

So this was not an organic thing that happened because very rarely do you walk around and say your last name to your family members who presumably know it.

Well, my family were very, very formal.

Good morning, Mr.

Hodgman, Mrs.

Hodgman.

It's me, your son, John Hodgman.

Esquire.

Esquire.

I'll have cream of wheat this morning, if you don't mind.

You haven't changed for breakfast, John.

So put on your breakfast coat.

I'm sorry to be wearing my sleep togs.

Is that your shooting jacket, John?

I'm sorry, we're having fun over here.

Let's have fun with you now.

Adam Pelletier,

how did it slip out of your mouth that you had changed the pronunciation of your last name?

It had not slipped out of my mouth.

We were in the middle of our rehearsal, and our officiant had begun to say his do-yous, I dos, and get through that.

And my dear sweet sister, who was my best woman at my wedding, leaned in nice and close, past me to our officiant, and asked, now, how would you pronounce that?

Just about that elongated.

And that is how the whole situation unraveled.

And what did the officiant say?

I believe he said Pelletieri because he's a bad person to an unrelated opera program.

Also, your sister-in-law cut him off before he could even say it to yell that this was about how you say your name wrong.

So when it was revealed that you were saying Pelletieri, how did your parents feel about it?

My mother was entirely neutral, I believe.

My grandparents, I had a harder time getting a gauge on.

I have continually been vindicated by my grandfather, who has said that I am technically correct, which is also the best kind of being correct.

Were they upset, do you feel?

Do you think that it hurts them for you to pronounce your name differently?

I don't think so.

Mara, do you have any evidence to suggest that the rest of the family feels hurt, wounded, betrayed, crossed?

So,

getting a gauge on my grandparents is really hard because they, like many grandparents, hate the idea of telling us that they don't like anything that we do.

I'm sorry,

what do you mean, like many grandparents?

Did you have really harsh grandparents that regularly shot you down?

Grandfather Hodgman, please.

Your critique of my short story is too harsh.

Lazy in short stories, lazy in life, boy Hodgman.

The ending simply wasn't earned.

You'll never be a scrivener now.

They don't like to tell you what's what?

Like your grandfather part will be.

Yeah, oh, I got you.

I prefer not to.

Yeah, I think the only times I can remember my grandparents telling me what to do were

that they have made it very clear that they don't like that we have all moved away.

And when I was graduating from college and planning to try to pursue a career in writing, my grandmother sat me down and said, you need to go to graduate school.

I don't know why you think you're going to get a job.

So those were the two very specific circumstances in which they told us basically anything.

And they've stayed intentionally intentionally really neutral on this.

Other than those two examples.

Right.

Our cousins and brothers and like aunts and uncles

do definitely disagree with the way that Adam is saying this.

One of my uncles at one point offered to get a tattoo with a phonetic pronunciation that he preferred.

The Pelleteri pronunciation.

Yeah, the tattoo that he was going to get was going to say the middle eye is silent.

As a mark of solidarity with the Pelleteri family.

Yes.

Right.

Who cares, Mara?

You do.

Why?

So when I got married, I kept my last name.

And I kept my last name specifically because

the idea of like moving into a new family and loosening that connection to my brothers was something that I absolutely didn't want to do.

Like I kept my last name specifically because my brothers also had that last name.

And maintaining like that specific bond between the four of us really mattered to me especially because I got married very very young and

we were just coming out of a

a long phase in our teen years where the four of us really had to fend for ourselves in a like pretty unpleasant way so I felt like our our last names were this kind of like tiny tribe of like us versus the world.

So having Adam change it feels like it's it's sort of a rejection of the way that the four of us have like moved through our lives.

Do you feel that Adam doesn't want to be a part of the fabulous peleary forsom anymore?

Is there anything else in his life that suggests that he is no longer part of your

self-sufficient forsom?

No, I don't think so.

I mean, we're still all in really regular communication.

I just also,

we're at this point in our lives where he and our other brother are in their late 20s and me and my older brother are in our like early and mid-30s where we're kind of setting up the next generation of the family.

Like there are already some next generation kids around and will likely be more soon.

And it just kind of feels like a point when we need to.

I can't think of a better phrase than like declare intentions for what the next generation is going to look like.

Get serious about enforcement.

That's right.

Now is the time to double down on a code of silence called Omerta

and agree upon our name.

But of course, Mara, there isn't agreement upon your name because based on the evidence that you suggested, there are a lot of text messages here.

With your permission, we will put these up on the Judge John Hodgen page at maximumfund.org and also on our Instagram.

And people can enjoy

the voluminous back and forth between this large family, who are all very funny, smart, and have a lot of clear consideration toward their family history.

And thus I will not read it all here.

But Mara, you submitted this exchange with your grandma.

I know it's with your grandma because you have her in your contacts as grandma.

And you asked her if there were any other spellings of the family last name

besides Pelletieri and another Pelletieri.

Quoth you, Adam, and I are still locked in debate about it.

And she points out that,

and I think this speaks to what you were saying about after your family's point of entry to the United States, there are many different spellings of the name, name, right?

Grandpa's uncle spelled it Pelleter, and his uncle spells it Pelleteri, and his cousin P-E-L-I-T-E-R-E, and another cousin spelled it pilleter.

I mean, there just isn't a lot of consistency in the family name at all, is there?

There's not in the spelling.

There is often in the pronunciation, though.

You telling me that cousin pronounced pilliter, pelletere?

There's not even an E on the end of it.

The one thing that was respected was like whether or not that last E or I was there.

So it was usually pelletere or pelletere.

Pelletieri or pelletere.

Yeah.

So there is a third option.

Do you think that Adam is just being super pretentious?

He's so into himself that he's trying to add another I in the word pelletieri?

What do you think motivates him?

Pedantry, honestly, I think is a strong motivator.

Oh, okay, gotcha.

Adam, why is it important to you that I allow you to continue with this alternate pronunciation, no matter how technically correct it is or historically accurate, you are essentially forming a new branch of the family, separate and apart from the four pele siblings who ran wild in upstate New York together.

Why is that important to you?

So, first, I don't think that it's necessarily segmenting myself away from the thing.

I'm not.

Oh, yes, it is.

I just said it is.

I'm not.

Maybe you're not aware of it.

But your children, if you continue this way, your children will have the last name Pelletieri,

and their first cousins will pronounce their last names, though spelled the same Pelletieri.

You're creating a new branch of the family.

Why?

There is something to be said for technical correctness, but also it does feel like it sort of helps me relate a little bit back to my roots and our family history going past the Ellis Island line and so on.

As

when my family came to America, they were kind of

fractured in a way with all these different spellings that I feel like our line has the opportunity to really gather that in on the correctness and on the way that it's historically pronounced even in other places so that you would be able to look at our last name and say Pelletieri.

Granted, I'm not sure it's necessarily feasible, but I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask my sister, who works with language for her living and for her life, to really think about approaching that with intent and with the hope to better understand the root of the words.

It's worth mentioning here that Mara is professionally a scrivener.

Oh, I didn't realize that.

She prefers to do it.

What is your career, Mara?

I'd run a website.

I'm an editor.

All right.

I'm going to say this, and you tell me whether you agree or not, that Adam's appeal to the fact that you are an editor to justify

why you should support his decision, that's pretty specious, right?

That's meaningless, correct?

Yeah.

As an editor, in the words of E.B.

White, would that be pointless words?

Yeah, I would have gone ahead and struck that.

Yeah, that's an X out there.

Is there anyone in your extended family who does that thing that certain, especially Northeastern Italian Americans do, where when they say an Italian word, they drop the last syllable no matter what it is, like,

oh, let's go get a spaghetti.

Muzzarelle.

Let's get a mozzarelle.

A pelletere.

Oh, no.

My in-laws do that, but that actually drives most of our family insane.

Yeah.

It's pretty fun, though.

Yeah.

You want to reconnect with your heritage?

Have you been to Sicily?

I have not had the chance yet.

Have you dabbled in leather working or tanning?

No, I fear about burning off my most layers of skins, and I have very time-consuming hobbies already.

How does your wife pronounce her name?

Is she taking your name, or has she taken your name?

She has taken my name.

She at this point generally abstains and says it's a whole thing when asked how she pronounces her last name.

At some point she has to say her last name.

Yes, she would prefer Pelleteri.

I see.

And do you plan to have children, Bambini?

I would like to have children.

And how will their last names be pronounced?

I would think correctly.

I see.

Do you plan to have pastries?

Cannoli?

Cannola.

I do still have frozen Italian cookies from my wedding in my freezer as we speak, so always.

All right, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to climb into Adam's freezer and eat some cookies.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Mara, how how are you feeling about your chances?

I mean, it truly could go either way.

I know the court has a long precedence of just leaving people to do what they want to do,

but also that moment at the end when Adam tried to say it was not forming a new branch of the family and the judge stopped and corrected him, I feel like means that at least someone is going to tell him that he needs to consider that, which is promising.

Adam, how do you feel?

I was feeling more confident before the end of that.

I know this court has a long history of supporting pedantry in some of its forms, and so I felt more confident at the beginning than I did at the end there.

Can I suggest an alternate pronunciation for the two of you?

It might lead to an out-of-court settlement.

I'm ready for it.

Pesopolo, otherwise known as Finnish baseball.

It's a variant of baseball played only in Finland.

Although there are some people who play it in India and a few other countries.

I'm not

interested.

Okay.

That's about as good as I can hope for.

We'll see what Judge Sean Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

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The Wizards answer eight by eight.

The Cornclaves call to demonstrate their arcane gift, their single spell.

They number sixty four

until

a conflagration

sixty-three

and sixty-two they soon shall be, as one by one the wizards die,

till one remains

to reign on high.

Join us for Taz Royale, an oops all wizards battle royale season of the adventure zone every other Thursday on maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents the finished sport of Peso Paolo.

You may be seated, Marin Adam.

Adam, as I'm sure you know, is a historian of Italy.

Italy, of course, was not a nation until the 19th century.

It was

a collection of small kingdoms.

Sicily itself being quite distinct culturally and linguistically from mainland Italian peninsula.

Lots and lots of different dialects.

Even before the migration of so many Italians to the United States, there were many, many distinct dialects.

and different ways of pronouncing things, which makes it confusing.

You take all of those different names and then you run them through

the Anglo-homogenator

of Ellis Island and other points of entry.

And you get a lot of both confusion of name, as you guys have discovered through consulting with grandma, your nona.

And also

difference in dialect even now in Italian-American speech.

You know, I just mentioned that your grandmother in Italian might have been referred to as your nona.

My father's Italian-born grandmother was known as Norni.

There are differences, differences that are only within a generation or two you have had massive differences in the spelling of the name itself.

Adam, you want me to rule on the side of pedantry.

And I think that you have misheard this podcast.

For pedantry is what is aimed at me.

When I on the fly make a mistake and say,

it doesn't take more energy to cool two cans of soda than one.

It takes exactly one can of sodas worth more energy to cool that.

I now know that thanks to many, many letters that were sent to me.

I apologize.

Apology not accepted.

I am always open to pedantry and pedantic small correction of fact, both because it's often interesting and I learn something

and it is instructive when I have been sincerely wrong.

It opens my mind and my understanding.

But that means that it is fun

and it is often kind of painful to endure.

And I do not know how you would come in good faith to the illusion that I would rule in favor of pedantry, when in fact there is a long precedent on this podcast of a different kind of me ruling against a guy having a better idea of how to do things because he thought of it that day.

Which is what you're doing.

And you're doing it not only without any meaningful

historical context, a commitment to discovering more and getting in touch with your Italian heritage, getting your hands into and burned by some leather working and tanning,

but also without any meaningful conception of the future.

Your wife already is suffering from the confusion that you are sowing by simply pronouncing this extra I.

She has made a choice of taking the name of her husband.

I respect people who change their names in marriage, whether it is a husband taking his wife's name or partners swapping or combining names, or the very, very sort of traditional and I dare say kind of problematic choice of a woman abandoning her own family name for her husband's.

One might suggest that you should be gracious and

give her your family name, which is Peletari.

And you have not really, I don't think, thought through

what it will be like

to have children whose names are pronounced differently than their own cousins, if indeed you intend to remain part of the Pelletary upstate family of mathletes.

That said,

Mara,

Pelletary is a historical anomaly.

It is a way of pronouncing the name that even within your own family, there is much variation.

And what's more, it is harder to pronounce your name Pelleteri than it is to pronounce it Pelletieri, because it is spelled with that I.

I'll be honest with you, Mara.

If your name was spelled Pelleteri without that extra I in there, which is in there,

then this would be case closed.

Despite the historical original name of Pelletieri, if it were spelled Pelleteri, clearly, without that extra I,

then Adam would just be guilty of the most monstrous affectation, and the gavel would have fallen very quickly.

But it is spelled Pelletieri, sorry.

I calls them as I seize them.

And the truth is that

I am touched by your desire to keep the old pelleteri gang together.

But time moves in one direction.

And like language and names evolve,

it does happen

that brothers marry, have children, move away, sisters marry, make different choices than their sister-in-law, and retain their own name.

You can hang on to Pelleteri, but you'll never obviously hang on to that time that you shared together,

both as bonding and as difficult as it sounds.

At some point, family names do diverge.

It didn't just happen back in, you know, great-grandpa Enzo's time.

It happens now.

And while I believe that your brother is undertaking a schism in this family without a whole lot of foresight, without a whole lot of hindsight,

mostly just to amuse himself and his friends from college, and ignorant of the pain that it causes you, it is his right to do so.

And so while I think he's being dumb,

and stubborn and pedantic,

this

not an anti-pedantry fake justice podcast.

It is a fake justice podcast.

It is a fairness podcast.

And I apologize for the pain that it might cause you.

And I hope that the Pelleteri clan will not send me a horse's head.

I also hope that my reference to the Godfather does not offend any Italian Americans listening to this.

I am of you.

Believe it or not, you wouldn't believe it to look at me, but I am.

However, this is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Mara, how are you feeling?

I kind of knew that this was going to be the answer.

I think I went into it knowing that I could not, as a separate person, tell Adam how to say his name, but also needed for him to hear from another person

that this is not a thing to just just like

do as a joke to prove that you are clever.

I'm going to come jump in here because, of course, we still have the old verdict reveal

in which I will also be judged as either consistent or inconsistent.

So, let me just ask you now, Mara, was I sufficiently chastising of your brother for what he has done?

Yeah, I think, I think so.

Adam, how do you feel?

I certainly feel adequately chided.

Will you adjust your behavior or stay the same?

I'll probably adjust my behavior.

I'm not forcing you to.

Yeah, no, I guess I hadn't thought seriously or legitimately about

the level of schism that this may be, especially with any kids that I or Mara may have, because our older brother already has.

You know,

we were very close with our first cousins, so I suppose it would be nice for them to all have the same name.

Well,

this whole thing might be flipped in a minute because Jennifer Marmor has the original verdict from episode 11.

You say Martusi, I say Martucci, or the other way around.

And I'm going to tell you this.

If I ruled differently then, I'm going to flip the verdict and find in Mara's favor.

Are you ready?

Jennifer, are you there?

I'm here.

Do you have the information?

I do.

What was my verdict back in 2010?

Well, Well, judge, you ruled that they should follow their own paths.

They're both right and they're both wrong.

And the sentence was to call each other by their

preferred pronunciation.

So Martucci was calling her sister Martusi and vice versa.

Oh, so like.

You went a little bit further, but the ruling was.

Martucci could be Martucci, Martusi could be Martusi.

Right, so I was consistent.

You were.

All right, so I'm not changing my verdict, but that further order was that if I were to apply it to this case, that Mara should call her brother Adam Pelleteri.

Adam Pelletieri.

Oh, she should call him Adam Pelletieri.

She should use the name that he chooses.

Yeah.

All right.

I agree with that as well.

Jesse Thorne: consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, and mine just got littler.

So, Mara and Adam, my ruling is not overturned by me.

You feel okay with that?

Yep, that works.

Good.

Mara, Adam, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In a minute, Swift Justice.

First, our thanks to Mary Fossbender-Gottschalk for naming this week's episode

Small Names Court.

That is a court in which she will not be appearing.

Thank you for naming the case and for having that name, Mary.

If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we put out calls for submissions there.

You can also follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H.

O.

And check out the Max Fun subreddit to discuss this episode.

We're also on Instagram where you can check out evidence from all of our cases at Judge John Hodgman.

Our thanks to this week's recordist, Adam Rooner, at Clean Cuts in Washington, D.C., our nation's capital, and by Sean Mullins at Propeller Head Media in Buffalo, New York, the capital of the Buffalo region of New York.

That's right.

Our producer is the great Jennifer Marmer and now Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Richard says, cheese and peanut butter, delicious combination or atrocious combination.

Well, Bailiff Jesse, you know it's a very popular kind of podcast.

Where people taste food and then they pass judgment on it because everyone can relate to that because everyone gets hungry sometimes.

Exactly so.

Yeah.

So I saw this as a very special opportunity to fill up this recording booth, this one rare time that I'm here in L.A.

with the smell of peanut butter right now.

Uh-huh.

So let's find out if it's good or bad because I don't know.

We have some cracker barrel brand cheddar cheese with peanut butter.

We also have some supermarket brie with peanut butter just to see if a hard cheese versus a bloomy rind cheese has a different flavor profile.

As a former cheesemonger, you're an expert.

Now, is any of this a migraine trigger for you?

Not that I'm aware of.

All right, well, let's hope for the best.

Let's try the cheddar first.

I'm taking the cheddar here, and we will chew off microphone for a moment.

All right.

It's not doing a lot for me, I have to say.

It's two very, very rich flavors that are kind of drowning each other out, is my feeling.

Yeah, it needs either sweetness or acid or both.

Yeah, I would say so.

But even then, I was thinking like a hot sauce.

I like my peanut butter to be a little spicy.

I'm a little bit of a heat seeker.

Oh, wait a minute.

You're not Nick Weiger from the Doughboys.

Oh, those guys are so in my head.

I've tried to steal that catchphrase on Jordan Jesse Go, and I got in a lot of trouble.

All right, nobody got me in trouble.

But I would say it definitely needs another flavor element because it's a little cloying and sweet.

And if you want to put that back there, I do.

But I'm not even sure that that's going to solve the problem of just like two majorly rich,

fatty foods fighting each other.

Well, on to the brie.

On to the brie.

This one I'm thinking might be more interesting because brie tends to be saltier and more floral.

Also because you're pretentious.

Oh, oh we.

So I rarely say this, but I'm not wrong, but I'm not right either.

Yeah.

What do you think about this one?

I mean, the reality is, cheese and peanut butter are both great.

Sure.

They're both delicious foods.

And certainly, I think this experiment could have gone worse.

Yeah.

If I were really hungry and somebody said, would you like some peanut butter on cheese?

I would not say, no, don't give that to me.

I won't eat it.

Agreed.

But there is nothing in this combination that makes it distinct or essential in any way.

I would rather eat that cheese and then eat that peanut butter.

Yeah.

And I think either of these would go better on a nice, flavorful slice of apple.

Now, see, there you go, because you have a textural difference.

There's that acid and

different flavor profile that you're looking for.

The salt?

The fat, the heat.

Yeah.

The acid.

Netflix.

Netflix.

So this is John and Jesse doing another round of inadvertent plugging for something we get no money from.

And Richard, it was Richard, was it not, who was suggesting peanut butter with cheese?

Yeah.

You're wrong.

It's bad.

We say it's not snack, it's whack.

Now we're going to get in trouble.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

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