R and Arbitration

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, R and Arbitration.

Jeff brings the case against his girlfriend, Diana.

His ideal vacation is exciting and adventurous, but Diana prefers to relax on her trips away.

They're planning their next vacation, and they've come to an impasse.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

I wanted kicks.

The kind of melodramatic thrills and chills I yearned for since childhood.

The kind of adventure I'd found as a little boy in the pages of my Tin Tin comic books.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he considers the cruel rocky beaches of Maine to be a relaxing vacation?

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Jeff and Diana, you may be seated.

Jesse Thorne, you know, I was in Maine and I got so hurt this summer.

It just kept destroying every part of my body.

Like I was moving from one boat to another and my own rowboat got possessed by a demon, jumped up, hit my shin so hard that I thought I had wrecked my leg.

I had a huge lump on my leg, and then my whole ankle was just swole, and not like it had been working out.

Like it looked like it was going to die and fall off.

The pain of my ankle and my shin weeks later would keep me awake at night.

And that was only the beginning of the scrapes and rashes and hurties and general feeling that Maine was finally going to get me this time.

But it didn't.

Here I am.

Jeff and Diana, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours' favors, can either of you name the person that I was quoting as I entered this fake internet courtroom.

Jeff, let's start with you.

It seems off-base with a kicks reference, but I was going to go with Jules Verne and Around the World in 80 Days.

Yeah, Jules Verne is a good guess.

I mean, you know the famous kick slogan, right?

Jules Verne tested, mother approved.

You're talking about KIX, the serial.

Yeah.

No, I was talking about K-I-C-K-S kicks.

Like the kind of kicks you get when you're huffing balloon gas, Jules Verne style.

All right.

I'm putting that into the guess book.

That's Jeff's guess.

What is your guess, Diana?

I'm going to go with Stephen King.

Stephen King, often a good guess on this podcast, but in this case, wrong.

As well as yours, Jeff, wrong.

Indeed, all guesses, wrong.

Anthony Bourdain.

Anthony Bourdain, who passed away this year, very sadly, but was a great proponent of travel as a way to put yourself in other parts of the world to see how other people live and to have adventures, obviously.

Now, I was thrilled by this quote because I did not know that Anthony Bourdain, liked me, loved Tintin comic books.

Now, I am going to say this on the podcast now.

I grew up loving Tintin.

Be warned,

these are problematic texts in today's...

culture.

They have some very backward and colonial and offensive depiction of race and, and, frankly, colonialism.

Don't worry about the depiction of women in these books because there are none, except for Bianca Castapiore.

But travel changes you, as Bourdain famously pointed out again and again and again.

And over time, and his own travels, Georges Remy, also known as Herger, was changed by his travels through the world and not only acknowledged his small royalist, racist, backward worldsview, but also, in a very uncommon move for a white dude, attempted to atone for it, starting with the book Tintin in Tibet.

And everything after that one, look, everyone's going to find a problem with a little bit of it, for sure.

It is a product of its time.

But everything after Tintin in Tibet has a much more inclusive worldview and a much more cynical worldview that interrogates a lot of the colonialism of the earlier books.

And that's part of why I still love Tintin today.

So it's subversive and fun and adventurous.

But before we go on to the case, I cannot mention Anthony Bourdain without mentioning the fact that he did not merely pass away.

He took his own life this year, a victim.

I won't say a victim, but a sufferer of depression throughout his life.

And it's a very, very sad situation.

And for those of you who are listening, who may be hurting, or know someone who is, and wants some support through depression, especially the kind of depression that might make you feel that there is no hope, the National Suicide Prevention Hotline is 1-800-273-8255.

and I hope you'll use it if you need it, which is a very fun way to introduce this sometimes comedy podcast, but comedy podcast.

I made up for the seriousness by doing a funny mispronunciation of podcast podcast.

Welcome to the podcast, Jeff and Diana.

You are both wrong, so we will hear this case between the two of you regarding whether travel should be adventurous or restful.

Jeff, you think it should be adventurous.

Diana, you feel differently.

Let's hear about your fight.

Jeff?

Yes, I think that in general, we should focus on adventure.

When I was a kid, I was lucky enough to live in a lot of places throughout the world.

And I think that kind of gave me the perspective.

What places, Jeff?

What places?

I was born in Denmark.

I moved to England.

A couple places in New England, New Jersey, Hong Kong, Seattle, and then kind of jumping around upstate New York.

Wow.

Sounds like fun.

Especially the New Jersey part.

Yeah, New Jersey was exotic and exciting.

Hoagies whenever you want.

All right, so you did a lot of traveling.

Why were you going on so much traveling when you were a kid?

My dad worked for a fairly large corporation that's kind of all over the world and was moving around within it.

So we had the opportunity to move a lot and travel that we might not have otherwise.

Was he a spy?

I don't think so.

It would be a surprise to me, most of all.

Guess what?

Surprise.

So that I know the extent of your travels, when you were in New Jersey, did you travel through both the Taylor ham territory and the Taylor pork roll territory?

I would have to see a map to really nail that one down, but I would assume so at some point.

What kind did you eat?

I do not recall eating either.

I'm sorry.

I don't know.

Pretty provincial, Jeff.

You got to try these exotic cuisines while you're out there on the road.

I had presumed you were a man of the world, but.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well,

all right, small town, Jeff.

So

you moved all over the place.

You did a lot of traveling.

But specifically, did you do adventure traveling?

Because that's what you want, right?

Yes, I would say in general, we kind of pushed our comfort zones when we were traveling and would try and like get off the beaten path, not really stay at resorts or just on beaches.

But you're not talking about like free climbing, you know, mountains or, you know, parasailing into sharks or whatever.

Like you're just talking about living in the world in which you were traveling as opposed opposed to staying in the hotel and watching Captain America, the First Avenger, and eating a Caesar salad with shrimps, which is my favorite food and meal of all time.

Yeah, I would agree.

Right.

Okay.

So the dispute here is that Diana does not like the style of travel.

Is that what you're contending, Jeff?

For the most part, I would say we disagree on how aggressive to plan itineraries and also the degree to which we should leave our comfort zones when we are planning

locations to go to.

And you guys are in a romantic relationship?

Yes, we are.

Are you married?

We are not.

We are cohabitating without marriage.

Cohabitating without marriage?

Yes.

C-H-W-M?

Shawum?

I'm so sorry.

You know, that's a pure titanical fight that I never intended to win.

So please don't feel bad.

Make the right decisions for yourself.

Just

don't.

Don't pull your money until you're married.

That's all.

All right.

Where do you guys live?

We live in Ithaca, but originally I'm from Rochester, and I moved down here to live with Jeff.

What do you do in Ithaca?

I do accounts receivable for a landscaping company.

Okay.

And I work from home marketing for a company that trains nurses.

Oh, cool.

That's interesting.

Why Ithaca?

We moved up here, or my family did, a while ago.

I've kind of jumped around upstate New York going to school.

That's your home place.

You're both upstateys.

Well, at least I am.

I don't think he considers himself an upstatey.

There's a major feud in New York about exactly where the upstate line is, but we can spare everyone.

I'm fascinated, but we only have three days for this podcast.

Just so that I know, Diana, why is Jeff a fake upstatey?

Well, I don't think that Ithaca is part of upstate New York.

I think that everything above the interstate is a part of upstate New York.

So anything in the Finger Lakes is debatable.

What would you call it if not upstate?

It's the Finger Lakes region.

Oh, okay.

All right.

I didn't know there was that distinction, and now I know.

I think it's just people from like Rochester and Syracuse will say that there's a distinction.

I don't think that anybody else would, though.

Okay.

So, Diana, where have you guys gone?

Have you guys gone on vacation before?

Yes.

We've traveled along the East Coast to places like Boston and Philadelphia and Washington, D.C.

But our biggest trip was we went to Japan earlier this year.

Oh, fantastic.

And did you have a nice time speaking for yourself, Diana?

We had a very nice time, a very adventurous time.

Oh.

Maybe too adventurous?

I don't think it was too adventurous.

I just think that it was much more of a fast-paced than I would have wanted to do a vacation, especially to a place that I had never been to.

I've never unlike Jeff, I am not very well traveled, especially outside of the United States.

And Japan was definitely,

it was from zero to 100 pretty quick for me.

Now, this podcast is forward-looking.

Nostalgia is a toxic impulse.

I don't want to litigate the past because there's nothing we can do about it, but to give me a sense of everything that Jeff does wrong,

what did he do wrong on this vacation that you resent him for, that you want to prevent from happening again?

How long were you there for?

We were there for about 10, 11 days.

And I would say that Jeff likes to sprint when we're on vacation.

We would get to a place and we would be running from activity to activity, none of it being planned, which I also wasn't used to.

We would just kind of see something and run over to it and do the activity and then see something else.

And the whole day would just be bouncing from place to place without really any sort of schedule or any idea of what we were doing next.

Running from place to place.

Is Jeff under the impression that he is on the most amazing race or whatever it is?

Jeff, do you think you're being filmed for a TV show where you have to run around all the time to get to a thing, to get to another thing?

Not to my knowledge.

I'm known to pace back and forth no matter where I am.

So obviously I've never seen the most amazing race or whatever it's called.

My friend Tyler won that show.

Really?

Yeah, him and his buddy got a million dollars.

It was amazing.

Jeff, how much money did you get for running around?

Not enough, evidently.

I've undersold myself.

I've never been to Japan, and I'm trying to get a sense, Diana, of whether your experience was due to Jeff's fast pace or the overall over-stimulative experience of being in Japan, as it has been reported to me.

Where did you go?

Well, in the 10 days, we went to Tokyo, then we went to Kyoto, then we went to Osaka, and then we spent more days back in Tokyo.

And just for reference, Tokyo to Osaka and Tokyo to Kyoto are both about a three and a half hour train ride, but those train rides go about 500 miles an hour.

So it is definitely, we definitely did like a cross-country tour of Japan.

What if Jeff is running up and down the aisle on the train?

Does it go faster?

If he's just running on it?

It probably would.

He is pacing around all the time.

I don't think he knows how to sit still.

I'm sitting still for this, let the record check.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, have you been to Japan?

I have been to Japan.

I went on a school trip when I was in eighth grade.

How long did you spend there?

Two weeks?

Look, you went there on a school trip, all right?

You're not a Japanese travel expert, but that seems like a lot to pack into 11 days in Japan.

What do you think, Jesse?

I mean, I think the biggest question there is whether once you go to Japan, your goal is to spend a day and a half in each of its major cities or whether you're going to

really

get intimately familiar with one or two places.

Right.

And Jeff, your interest is to see as much as possible in the short time that you're there because you don't know if you're ever going to go back.

Am I right?

Yes, for the most part.

We, to some degree, compromised.

My original list, I think, had five cities with a different city every day or two.

So I thought three was fairly healthy for us to getting some sense of each individual city's culture or

characteristics.

And so where are you going to go next?

Do you have a definite plan or are you trying to decide?

Well, we were trying to compromise, which is what led us to end up on your show.

But

the ideas have wildly ranged from going to Hong Kong, because Jeff knows Hong Kong,

or going even on the Jonathan Colton cruise.

But we honestly have no idea where we're supposed to go because we keep on disagreeing on what we're supposed to be doing on the trips.

That was a very smooth plug for the Jonathan Colton Cruise.

But too bad, Jonathan Colton Cruz sold out.

I know.

That's part of the reason why we're not going because by the time we checked, there were no tickets.

I guess you don't move that fast after all, Jeff.

I guess it narrows it down to Hong Kong because Jeff knows all of the good running paths in Hong Kong.

Exactly.

We can sprint all around another city.

Or parkour.

I don't think that I am built for any sort of parkour.

That it's actually another issue that we have.

I'm five feet tall and Jeff is six foot three, so our strides are very different.

So him sprinting around is me like

with a jetpack trying to keep up with him.

So I would imagine that going to Hong Kong

as it is, and I've never been there either.

This is something I have to fix, you guys.

I've never been to Asia, and I need to fix that as soon as possible.

That's crazy.

But, you know, Hong Kong is a dense urban city.

There's a lot to explore there, and Jeff knows it already.

So I would imagine, Diana, that you're feeling that you might be run off your feet a little bit there with stuff he wants to see and do.

Is that your trepidation, would you say?

Absolutely.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

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Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom to hear more of the case.

So where would you like to go, Diana?

Like in your dream scenario, where would you like to go?

I like going tropical, relaxed places.

I like the Caribbean.

I like beaches.

I like just kind of enjoying the ocean.

It could also be like a forest setting.

I just, I want things to be at a slower pace because I feel like our lives are so fast-paced.

that I want to kind of take it down a notch whenever we travel somewhere.

So Diana, you want a classical do-nothing,

go to a place, chill out the entire time, piña coladas at dawn.

I'm not saying not do anything.

I enjoy doing adventurous things.

Like the last time I went to Mexico, I like went ziplining and cave diving and cenotes.

So I'm not sure.

You went to all cenote?

Yeah.

I

repelled myself into the cenote.

Tell everyone who's listening what a cenote is.

It is a naturally formed

it's uh freshwater caves all around uh Mexico and I think the Yucatan Peninsula, if I remember correctly.

It's a giant hole in the ground to hell.

Yeah, it's a little terrifying'cause the only light that's coming in is from above and then once you get down there there's like one beam of light and then total darkness and there's definitely very large fish and creatures swimming around in there.

But yeah, I am not opposed to adventure.

I'm just opposed to a little too much adventure.

Well, it sounds like the dispute is between,

and correct me if I'm wrong here, Jeff, but you want to go out into the world.

You want to go out into the world as it is, right?

Into a culture and explore it and get in there as much as possible.

And urban environments suit you for that reason.

But it sounds like Diana is more comfortable going to on a traditional vacation where there's a lot of resting, but then there's sort of planned excursions, like rappelling down a Cenote.

Did you go rappelling down the Cenote, Jeff?

In Belize, I went on a like a river rafting thing through a cave.

I don't know if that technically qualified as a Cenote, but I don't know.

Jeff, it doesn't.

A Cenote is a massive natural pit to hell.

Scary.

There's things Cenotes is, and there's things Cenote's ain't.

Just to clarify for you guys, Jeff has a scuba diving license, so he's been in darker and scarier places than Cenote.

This would definitely hit the pit to hell description at least.

So I have it wrong then, Jeff.

You also like to do planned excursions and like adventure excursions.

It's not just getting out into the nitty-gritty of Kyoto or whatever.

Yeah, I don't think that I necessarily require it being an urban environment.

I dive a lot.

I'm really fine with excursions on those trips.

Some of them, like the cave diving thing, have been things I wouldn't necessarily seek out.

I don't know that I would want to do a vacation that was exclusively planned activities like that, though.

Yeah, when we went to Japan, I think for all the nights, we may have planned two hotels in advance.

But Jeff insisted that we purchase hotels either the day before or the day of.

And that's what we typically do when we travel in the United States as well.

So when I say nothing's planned, I literally mean nothing is planned ever at all.

Wait, you're telling me that

you're saying that you don't know where you're going to sleep that night.

You don't have a hotel reservation even for that night?

The first night we planned and I think the last night.

I don't know if I can continue doing the podcast.

I'm having a panic attack right now and I know where I'm sleeping tonight.

His thought process is that it's a big city, so they're never going to run out of hotels, which I totally understand.

And we do it when we travel in the United States where we'll go to like Philadelphia and we won't book a hotel till like 3 p.m.

But when we're traveling to a place like Tokyo, Japan, it's really tough to feel comfortable about being adventurous and have a good time where I don't know the language and I also don't know where I'm sleeping that night.

I am an only child.

It is very important for me that I'm able to control and mitigate all risk.

and completely control my environment around me.

Leaving things to chance is not my style.

I'm afraid that you guys have really,

really brought up a horrible memory flashback

to a time when I had a hotel reservation.

And we went to that city to do a show.

And I'm like, I'm not going to check in.

We'll do the show and then we'll go check in after the show.

And when we got there, they had given our rooms away.

And I said, where else are we going to go in this city?

And you know what they said?

There are no more rooms in the city.

Here is a place 50 miles away where you can stay.

Maybe not 50, but like 15

in this city.

You know what city that was?

Philadelphia.

Philadelphia

was shut down.

No more hotel rooms in Philadelphia.

It happens, Jeff.

It happened to me.

The Hoagie Convention was in town from New Jersey.

All the more reason I was so disappointed that we had to just drive back to New York in the middle of the night.

Philadelphia would not receive us.

That's terrifying.

Now, I've done, there's an app that will book you a hotel room that night.

And I've used that once before.

Only because the tour had booked us into a place that was like a long-term residence.

for displaced, out-of-work, divorced men.

And it was too depressing.

Out of necessity, I used that app, but I've never used it again.

It's just not in my, I've got to tell you, Jeff, this is not in my wheelhouse to not know what hotel you're going to sleep in when you arrive in a city.

We tend to look up a little bit in advance to make sure that we're not going to hit any sort of crazy other events or like dead zones.

It's been fine for us so far, and I'm comfortable doing it in large cities in the United States.

And that's kind of where I draw the line.

So, Jeff wants to go to Hong Kong.

Where Where do you want to go?

Make your case, Diana.

What's the place you want to go to the most?

And what do you want to do there?

The place I want to go to the most is anywhere in the Caribbean.

I just want to go somewhere where there's a beach, somewhere where there is fun stuff to do, but also

relaxing.

And, you know, there's someone walking by with a tray of alcohol.

And I just want to step away from reality and go to the beach.

And, you know, obviously

resources are finite in this world.

So you don't have all the time and funds in the world to spend on every possible vacation.

So Jeff, why would Diana going to the beach and the two of you relaxing in a beautiful place for a while and actually getting some time off be a waste of your time and money, Jeff?

I don't necessarily think it's a waste.

I think that we can find places to relax anywhere in the world.

We can't always find places to kind of experience that culture shock anywhere in the world.

So, if we're going to kind of combine and compromise, I think it makes more sense to pick a more

place that neither of us have really been

and focus our resources there.

And still being able to relax there, I think you can find a tray of alcohol on any beach in the world if you're willing to pay enough.

The last vacation, the big one,

was curated by you.

Right?

I mean, you made the itinerary for Japan.

You ran all over the place.

Diana expressed, if she did not then, is now expressing that that was a little bit faster than she desired.

Don't you think the compromise should now be to let her curate the next one?

I think that if we, alternating is certainly a potentially fair way to do it.

Oh, it's a potentially fair way, for sure.

But I have a different system.

It's definitely a fair way.

I think that we would risk kind of vacationing semi-independently in that case.

I think it'd be harder for myself to kind of pull myself emotionally and physically away from work in the way that it's easier for me to do when I can delve into something deeper.

And I don't think that us going to a more exciting place necessarily precludes Diana from...

and I from finding those relaxing experiences.

He's also not telling you that he just absolutely cannot sit still.

I asked him what he would do if we went on a beach vacation and he pretty much said he would read through all the books he could possibly fit in his suitcase and then day three would happen and he wouldn't know what to do.

That's happened to me before.

One time I was at my wife's, my wife's family has this cabin in the northern Sierras.

And I went up there and I brought a bunch of books, but I forgot that several of them were graphic novels, which read much faster.

And literally on day three, I had read all of the like six books that I brought with me.

And I ended up reading Who Moved My Cheese?

Because it was one of the only books in the neglected common bookshelf that had been sitting there for 40 years, shared by every single one of my wife's aunts, uncles, cousins, and

third-tier relatives.

So, Jeff, you say that if you went on a relaxing vacation, you don't have the discipline to really turn off and not telecommute while you're there.

In fact, you need this constant stimulation in order to not pay attention to work.

That is what you just said to me, correct?

For the most part, yeah, I'd agree to that.

So, the other thing you said to me was, well, if she wants to go and relax on a beach, she should just go do that, right?

Separate vacation?

Have you considered it?

I think we discussed somewhat separate vacations where we'd pick a location and then separate our itineraries to some degree.

But I definitely don't want to do that.

Okay.

Well, then let's not talk about that anymore, Jeff.

Diana, what do you see as a reasonable compromise between the two different styles of traveling that you want to do?

I think we should be alternating locations, and I think Jeff needs to let me at least plan out some stuff

because his no-planning anything makes me a little apprehensive and it makes us have to kind of run around and find things to do.

And instead of that, we could be like, okay, on the third day of vacation at 2 p.m., we're going to go to this place and it's going to be planned.

And if we have planned, relaxed, and planned adventure activities, it starts to matter less where we're going.

I just, I get worried that we're just going to run around and miss a lot of stuff.

Yeah, you know, that sounds like a pretty reasonable compromise, Jeff.

Like there are lots of ways, even in the Caribbean, there are a lot of real places you can visit.

There are a lot of real communities you can interact with.

There are a lot of planned and spontaneous outdoor adventures.

There's a lot of diving you can do.

What is important to you about having a vacation or a travel experience where you don't know what you're going to do that day and you have to make it up as soon as you wake up, including where you're going to sleep.

Why is that uncertainty important to you?

I think that in general,

I want to really immerse myself in experiences that I don't really have a frame of reference to process.

I recognize certainly the Caribbean, anywhere, really.

There are amazing places and adventures you can have.

I'm sure there are stuff within 15 miles of here I'd love to do that I haven't thought of at all.

I think that in general, when I am seeking kind of that immersion in that new experience, the thing that I don't have a frame of reference for, it helps me to keep as much open-ended time as possible

so I can really just get a chance to explore.

I don't have to feel like I'm rushing through a room.

If I see an alley that has something cool behind it, we can push off whatever we're doing for the rest of the day to take a look.

Certainly, the scheduling part I'm willing to compromise on.

I recognize that

Japan, a lot of things in Japan were winged that maybe didn't need to be.

Yeah.

What do you acknowledge about the failing of your Japan trip?

I think there was one night that we were confused about which hotel we were in.

So I'll certainly say that we could have planned more and had more success.

It wasn't that.

He had booked the tickets for the flight and on like day six of the trip had realized that our plane was leaving a full day later than he had told me to write down on my schedule is what he means.

Better that than the other direction.

So it's not that you enjoy the adventure of having an unplanned itinerary.

You're just terrible at planning.

Is that what I'm understanding?

Little of column A, little of column B.

Do you prepare for the trips?

I mean, we're talking about scheduling activities, but do you say buy a book on Osaka and

read about what things you might like to do while you're there?

Or do you just hit the ground running and

go to whatever happens to be near where you're standing?

So I read up on stuff.

I definitely knew that there were certain districts in Tokyo that I wanted to go to.

I knew that when we were in Kyoto, there was a certain shrine that I wanted to go to.

So I knew places that I wanted to go, and he seemed fine with those couple of places.

But it was definitely like three places across the entire trip.

And I would also like to let you guys know that at the age of 10, Jeff told his mother that Europe was boring.

So if that gives you an idea of what our traveling is like sometimes.

Does that pass the statute of limitations?

Well, to be fair, he spent some time in Denmark.

I've never been to Denmark.

I would love to go, but it's boring, right, Jeff?

John, I went to Copenhagen like two years ago.

I have not stopped thinking about how much fun I had since.

Oh, okay.

May have just been because I was overwhelmed by my family obligations and I went by myself.

But boy, did I have a great time.

What'd you do in Copenhagen?

I went to dope museums.

I discovered this artist whose art I really liked named J.F.

Willemson, who's a Danish artist, a Danish painter that I loved his work.

I went to flea markets all over town.

I met people.

I like socialized with people that I just met, which is something that I would never do in real life.

Yeah, I had a good old time.

It's supposed to be a wonderful city.

I'm sorry I called you boring, Denmark.

I was just trying to figure out Jeff's pathology.

What's boring about Europe, Jeff, before I go into my chambers and come back with a verdict?

I don't think Europe is boring at all.

I think I was more 10 and reacting to the length of layover.

We're traveling from like Hong Kong to Seattle and stopping in London, which didn't make sense on a globe, and it deeply upset me at the age of 10.

So I know what Diana wants.

She wants to go somewhere in the Caribbean and just chill.

So Jeff, if I were to rule in your favor, what would I rule?

Where would you go?

Hong Kong is fine.

I would love to do Thailand more particularly.

Or if we do do the Caribbean, Cuba would be my go-to.

Okay.

And why Cuba?

Cuba's really interesting, I just think, with at least at one point, the kind of thawing of relationships between the U.S.

and Cuba.

I'd I'd love to see it before McDonald's moves in.

Maybe you should go and start the first McDonald's there.

It is a historical moment, the thawing of the embargo and obviously a lot of interesting history there.

And you will love it because of a lack of infrastructure.

We would book our hotel rooms if we went to Cuba.

Just make sure that we're going to be able to do that.

Oh, a very generous history.

Wow.

This is new.

How do you feel about Cuba, Diana?

Is that not on the mark for you?

See, I would have to go and research it and look on the internet for a while before I made a decision.

So at this point, I have no idea because I really don't know that much about Cuba.

I think I've heard everything that I need to.

I am going to

go into my 1970s travel agency, a perfect replica of Liberty Travel in Harvard Square from 1979.

I'm going to look through some pamphlets.

and some timetables and I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Diana, how do you feel about your chances?

I think I did okay.

I think I sounded a bit more reasonable than Jeff.

So I'm hoping it goes in my favor.

What do you like to do when you're relaxing on the beach?

Can you like literally just relax for long periods of time?

Yes.

Unlike Jeff, I can sit still for a few hours of the day.

I like to suntan.

I like to play in the water.

I like to take slow walks

or regularly paced walks are fine too.

Jeff, how do you feel about your chances?

Probably more confident than I should feel.

I think that's the kind of self-aware foolhardiness that has served you well in your travels around the world.

Jeff, Diana, we'll see how all of this ends up for the two of you when we come back in just a second.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his decision.

There's a difference between travel and vacation, right?

Vacation means really taking a break, really stopping and going to a place of low expectation and low obligation to recharge.

And often that means going to a place of physical beauty, whether that is the soft sand of a Caribbean beach or the hard shards of the rugged coast of Maine.

Just unplugging for a period of time to use a cliché, but it's a meaningful cliché.

And then there's travel, right?

Travel is where you go out into the world because you want to see it and you want to do it and you want to go down those weird alleys and you want to have bone marrow cocktails with Anthony Bourdain at 2 a.m.

and eat the heads off shrimps and

go into an alley and find a trapdoor and go into a secret rave and have someone take you to another place.

And you don't even, you know, you can do that in Copenhagen.

That's what Jesse did.

He traveled.

He went there and really visited the stuffing out of that city.

And it doesn't sound as though Diana is against travel per se,

but it does sound as though Jeff is against vacation.

He wants to use his time on this earth going down those alleys.

It also doesn't sound as though Diana is against adventure.

For heaven's sake, she jumped into a cenote.

But there are also, there's a distinction between travel and vacation.

There's a distinction between two different kinds of adventure.

One, adventure which you have chosen to do as an activity that day, such as repel into a cenote.

And two, the adventure that makes you feel like you are actually at risk of maybe not having a place to sleep tonight.

Adventure that makes you feel vulnerable and nervous and upset.

Like, I have miscalculated when my plane leaves, and now I have an extra 24 hours and I don't have a place to go.

That kind of adventure, you know, is fun if you need that kind of stimulation in your life.

It's a lot of fun to do, you know, when you're a younger person, right?

And you're just kind of on your own or with a buddy and you're getting into scrapes and who knows where we're going to sleep tonight.

Hooray!

Life is endless and we are immortal and nothing bad can really happen if we don't have a place to sleep in this city tonight that we've never been before.

It's when you get older and you find yourself like, oh, I don't have a place to sleep in Philadelphia.

I have no options.

I have to go home.

And that's the least of the possible things that could happen on travel when things go awry.

You know, being vulnerable in that way is exciting until something bad happens.

And, you know, maybe the worst thing that happens is you don't have a place to sleep.

But maybe the worst thing that happens is something worse.

And it's really up to your ability to tolerate that anxiety, that that kind of adventure.

the adventure of poor planning and pure spontaneity is fun.

And the flip side, obviously, of pure spontaneity is there may be things that you miss because you refused to plan to see them.

You may go down all of those alleyways and never get to see that one shrine that you really wanted to see.

You know, I've had the real privilege.

And when I say privilege, I know what I'm talking about because I got a lot of it.

I've been having it all my life.

But I've had the real privilege of getting to do some traveling, both.

as a traveling imitation stand-up comedian and book author, and then just traveling with my family.

And it is hard to find that balance

of relaxation, recharging, seeing things that you never get to see again,

probably,

unless you're lucky enough to come back, and not feeling so run down that you take as many bad memories back with you as good ones.

It's not good that Diana came back from that trip to Japan feeling like, I wish I could have just moved a little slower to see a little more.

The balance between spontaneity and planning is really hard.

And what I've found, and you can take this as a guide, it is not an order, but I find that it's good to just plan to do one thing per day

and

then take your time getting there and explore.

If you don't over-plan the day, there's more time for you to find those alleys and do the thing that you want to do.

One thing, one thing per day.

We're going to do

the Eiffel Tower today, and we're not going to go up it.

We're just going to walk to the base of it and look at it.

And then all the things that we found along the way to that Eiffel Tower, walking.

This is in Paris, France, by the way.

I'm not sure if you've heard of it, the Eiffel Tower, just so you know.

That's what I'm talking about.

I know you find it boring, Jeff, but I kind of found it interesting.

So

I'm at a bit of a crossroads here to use a travel metaphor, and I don't know which way to go because I actually like Jeff's style of travel.

I am not one who loves

to relax on a beach like you, Diana.

Like vacation to me,

if we define it as really just sort of unplugging from the world and stopping, going to another place to stop and relax, there is a part of me that feels like, yeah, that's a waste of time and money.

If you're going to another part of the world, just get out there.

There are plenty of places to relax right here in the United States.

You go to New Jersey and luxuriate on the Jersey shore with some Taylor pork roll.

What could be better?

What could be better, Diana?

But I know that you don't want to just chill on a beach and have things brought to you.

You want a little bit of that, but you also like going into Cenotes.

In the midst of this, thinking of the Caribbean

and thinking of the balance of activity and stimulation and relaxation and doing nothing, I think the Jonathan Colton cruise would be really great for you.

And so during this podcast, I texted Jonathan.

I said, I know you're sold out, but isn't there, are you going to release any cabins?

Isn't there one cabin that you can sell to Jeff and Diana?

And guess what he said, you guys?

No.

Sorry, I tried.

I want credit for trying.

He said,

at the moment, we have more people on the waiting list than we have cabins.

Do you like these people?

Do you want me to try to get them in the waiting list?

And I said, if you can, put Jeff and Diana on the waiting list.

We'll see what happens.

But probably not.

It's probably not going to work for you.

No.

I'm intrigued by this idea of Cuba.

Normally I like to rule in one person's favor.

I don't like to find a compromise.

I like to say this person's right and this person's wrong.

And I can say this, Jeff, you're wrong.

Okay.

You did it your way once.

The fair thing is for Diana to do it her way next.

You say you can't unplug.

You got to learn to unplug.

You got to learn to tune into what makes her happy and not just do the things that make you happy.

Okay?

Got it, everybody.

We understand.

Jeff's wrong.

Diana's right.

Then go back and forth, right?

That's the fair way to do it.

Just like you know, Jeff, in your heart.

And the marrow bones that you want to eat at 3 a.m.

in the morning, that you know that it's right to do

one vacation your way, one vacation her way, back and forth like that.

Because she's not going to be boring.

It's not going to be boring for you.

You're going to jump into cenotes or whatever.

But since you said Cuba, I realize there is a solution.

Go to Cuba, because I think that's really interesting.

It's a really interesting time to go there.

And I think it's right to want to go there now.

Take part of the vacation and explore Cuba.

And then take the other part of the vacation, go to Jamaica.

There's a flight between the two of them.

Or go to Turks and Kaikos or chill out in Miami.

You know, Miami Beach is a weird place, but there are beautiful.

I mean, I went into southern Florida.

It's bonkers, but there are places where you can really unwind.

You know, just do both.

Take some time.

I would say probably do do Havana and Cuba first and then go to a beach and just chill.

But it's up to Diana which way she wants to flip the script.

But that's what you're going to do.

Your next vacation, you're going to go explore all of the liminal, marginal, adventury, weird, new Cuba as it's in this period of transition.

You're going to see all those cool old cars they have.

You're going to make a reservation in a hotel.

That has to stop from now on.

Don't Don't go to a place and not know where you're going to spend the night.

I don't care if you're going to spend the night in an Airbnb or with a family or a tent on the beach.

It doesn't have to be a fancy place.

Just know what you're going to do because you're getting too old for that kind of adventure.

And then you're going to take an equal amount of time and go to one of those neighboring islands.

It's Diana's choice, place where she can truly just unwind.

And the fact of the matter is, I've been in Jamaica in years and years and years and years, but that's a fascinating place with an incredible history and culture that you could explore as well.

And I'm sure any other place you might go could be the same.

Okay?

That's your plan.

I look forward to your postcards.

If you get on that Jonathan Colton Cruz,

I think my plan is still better.

Sorry.

Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Diana, how do you feel?

I actually feel great.

I think that

it's a good compromise.

think we're still going to disagree

on how we're going to relax, but this makes planning just a little bit easier.

Jeff, how about you?

How do you feel?

I'm fine with it.

I'm pretty happy.

These are good problems to have, I think, the opportunity at all.

Well, Jeff, Diana, thanks so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case.

Kapow.

Kapow.

Books.

Kapow.

Before we dispense some Swift justice, and we do have some Swift Justice coming up, we want to thank Elena Talty or Alana Talty for naming this week's episode R and Arbitration.

If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out calls for submissions there.

Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho.

And check out the Maximum Fund subreddit to discuss this episode.

This week's episode recorded by Nate Richardson at Rep Studio in Ithaca, New York.

I hear it's gorgeous there.

Our producer, Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Emily says, My husband says that throwing away the crumbled up particles of cereal at the bottom of the bag is wasteful and they should be consumed.

I think the resulting slurry of milk and crumbs is gross.

Why would I make myself eat that?

Why, indeed, Emily.

I abhor food waste.

You are all educated listeners out there in the world.

You know that America wastes an incredible amount of food.

And it is something that I try to keep a very tight lid on, literally by storing foods in vacuum containers and keeping a tight lid on it so that I can eat it later.

But

the crumbs at the bottom of cereal.

There, I think, it's a judgment call.

And my judgment is to call your husband unreasonable.

Let me put it this way.

You shouldn't have to drink that cereal slurry.

But if it's meaningful to your husband, he should drink it right in front of you.

Make him eat it all.

Or you take, I don't know what kind of cereal you're talking about here, but you can save that and put it on top of vanilla ice cream.

And then it turns into cereal milk ice cream, which is delicious.

But if it's important to him, it's not an imposition for him to eat all those crumbs all at once and get it all done.

But if he's not around, just throw the crumbs away.

Crumbs are crumbs.

Jesse, do you disagree?

I agree entirely.

And I recommend, I mean, especially if you're going to be putting it on top of the ice cream, just start eating grape nuts.

That's the all-crumbs cereal.

Man, grape nuts are great.

You know what?

I call them great nuts.

Oh,

I call them great nuts.

That makes sense.

sense.

Okay, that's the end of this week's episode, obviously.

Do you know what I say when my friends get married?

What?

Great nups.

Great nuptials, you guys.

That was some cool nups.

Okay, now do your thing, Jesse.

I'm glad I got that in there.

Thank you for double explaining it, too.

Submit your case.

There may have been people out there going, I don't get it.

What does he mean, great nups?

We got a lot of 13-year-olds.

We got got seven-year-olds who listened to this thing.

They're not going to know what a nuptials is.

It's getting married, you guys.

All right.

Thank goodness you explained it again.

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or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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