Requesting an Immediate Ingestion

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I am Guest Bailiff Gene Gray filling in for Jesse Thorne.

This week, requesting an immediate ingestion.

Matthew brings the case against his wife, Angie.

One of their family rules is that they all remain at the dinner table until everyone is done eating.

But Angie is a notorious slow eater.

Matthew is constantly left entertaining their small children while she finishes her meal.

He wants to minimize the time he's spending with screaming kids, but Angie thinks he needs to slow down.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

One, eat only when you have a good appetite.

Two, chew the food like pulp and drink that pulp.

Do not swallow food.

Three, drink all the liquids and liquid food sip by sip.

Do not drink in gulps.

And remember, nature will castigate those who don't masticate.

Just pale Jean Gray, please swear them in.

Matthew and Angie, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever, even though you can't handle the truth.

I do.

I affirm that I speak the truth.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he's wearing orange and it's very in right now?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Well, you may be seated.

Well, thank you very much, Gene.

You're welcome.

It's very trendy.

Actually, a little bit old.

I was thinking about throwing it away.

That's the whole deal.

Retro.

Maybe I got another season in it.

So many seasons.

Oh, boy.

Thank you very much.

All right.

Well, nice to have you here again, Gene Gray.

And nice to have you here, Matthew and Angie, for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased when I entered the courtroom?

I quoted it, I didn't change any words.

I added a, I took something from a different context and put it in, but it's all the same person.

I'm giving you more information than you need.

Matthew, why don't you go first?

What's your guess?

I have no idea, so I'll go with my pre-canned guess of something off the Cake or Death album.

Whoa!

I like what you're doing.

I like what you're doing.

All right.

I'd like to, I have used Masticate before.

I'm going to take a 25-minute break.

Enjoy your, have a good time, Gene.

Oh, man.

So let's get into this case.

You are referring, of course, to the album Cake or Death by Gene Gray.

Non-released.

Non-released.

Only a few people know about it.

And Matthew, you are one of them.

That is an incredible.

I don't know how we got the lyrics.

How'd you get that information?

Yeah, hold on a second.

Matthew, who is this?

There's this new invention called Google.

Oh, all right.

Well, that's a very interesting and provocative guess, and I'm going to put it into the guess book right now.

I'm writing it in here.

You can hear it here at Argo Studios.

And now, Angie, what is your guess?

Without commenting on whether or not that guess was correct, what is your guess?

My guess is the recently released cookbook, Run Fast, Cook Fast, Eat Slow, by the winner of the New York Marathon last year.

Oh!

Did you just have that

at the tip of your slow-eating tongue?

Or was that something you had prepared in advance?

No, I'd prepared it.

Well, that's a good guess.

Gene, do you have a guess?

You don't have to guess.

I always like guessing.

Is it a...

Well, he's known for just really thinking things out, thinking them through, and being very

careful with his words.

I'm going to go with Ray J?

Ray J.

Is that Ray J?

Well, for the love of Ray J, that's a guess.

I have a real real guess.

Okay, what is your real guess?

Julia Child.

Julia Child.

Two guesses from Gene Grey.

I'll allow it.

But all guesses are wrong.

It was not Ray Jay.

It was not Ray J.

It was not Julia.

It was not Gene Gray.

Nor was it the unnamed marathon winners who like to run fast and cook fast, but eat slow.

Although I think, Angie, you are closer than any of the other guesses because

that was Horace Fletcher.

Horace Fletcher, a famous dietary theoretician of the early 20th century.

He lived from 1849 until he died in 1919.

He was the pioneering author of Fletcherism, What Is It?

And How I Became Young at 60.

He wrote a number of books, became a very famous sort of early food celebrity, championing the health benefits of chewing a lot.

And it's impossible that he wrote a lot of books.

How did he get to time?

He wrote a number of books on essentially this one subject, which was chew each bite 100 times.

Oh, it's too many times.

This was incredibly popular at the time.

The idea was that we were all misdigesting our food because we weren't chewing enough.

So you were supposed to chew your food into a slurry

such that you wouldn't even have to swallow it.

It would just

slide down your food.

It would slide down your body.

And it just became a part of you.

And this was called Fletcherizing.

And it was very popular in the early 20th century as an idea for how you could eat more healthfully.

Now, that is gross.

That is gross.

And trust me, I've tried it because

someone

who's very close to me in my life is named Fletcher.

So I've been tuned into this idea for a long time.

We've both tried it.

It's really gross.

It's terrible.

He also suggested things that I think are valuable, which is don't eat unless you're really hungry.

That's a good one.

He also would say, don't eat when you're sad or mad.

Like, this is the early 20th century.

Calm down, Fletcher.

Take it down a notch.

And he also said, you should know what's in your food.

You should be conscious of the food that you're eating.

Very fair.

And he also, by the way, his most famous demonstration that brought him to attention was when he was 58.

Back in 1907, he went to Yale University, my alma mater.

It's a four-year accredited college in southern Connecticut.

And

he challenged the football team to a variety of physical tests.

And because he had been chewing his food so much, he bested them all.

Specifically, he claimed to lift 300 pounds dead weight 350 times with his right calf.

I don't think that happens.

Angie, you chew your food slow, Lee.

Maybe.

How many times do you chew a bite of food, Angie?

100 times or less?

I'm going to go with less, but this idea really sounds pretty enthralling to me.

Right.

This is why I chose this piece because I thought you might already know about Fletcherizing.

I don't.

So Matthew brings the case against you because he claims that you eat too slowly.

Where do we find you guys in the world?

We live in Golden, Colorado.

We're currently in Denver right now.

Oh, the mile-high city.

Very high.

Yeah.

For many reasons.

The city with the spookiest airport in the United States.

Yep.

Well, Colorado is great.

And Matthew, explain what exactly is the problem that Angie has, in your opinion, with regard to eating speed.

So it's a well-known fact she eats slowly.

I will determine what is a well-known fact in this courtroom.

I mean, I won't dispute this, Judge.

Oh, okay.

Well, then it's a well-known fact.

Go on.

So I knew that going into the marriage.

I knew that for years before we had children, where the issue becomes is when we have a three-year-old and a one-and-a-half-year-old.

And where I struggle is when one or both of the children are complaining or screaming as they're want to do.

Angie is sitting there slowly chewing away, doing I don't know what,

one of the children.

I think you know what.

She's chewing.

Was there something else?

Yes, she's chewing.

It's true.

Sometimes I do study or I'm just

trying to figure out why this is taking so long.

And I know that you did some deep study on this because the evidence you provided that we'll get to in a moment, it is meticulous to the point of madness.

But we'll get to the evidence in a moment.

And so when you're having dinner,

you try to have dinner together as a family, even with that three-year-old and one and a half-year-old?

Yep, so I would probably say almost every single night we're eating dinner together as a family.

I think it's important for us.

Even before we had kids, that was a rule for Angie and I

just, we think it's good for the relationship.

And so, as you mentioned at the beginning, we have a rule that everyone stays at the table until everyone else is done.

So, we're just waiting there for Angie to finish chewing.

And how long, I mean,

I know you have a lot of of data to present, but just

thumbnail it for us: like, how long are you stuck there waiting for her to finish chewing?

I mean, while a child is screaming, it feels like an eternity.

Yeah, okay, Einstein.

I know time is relative.

But are we talking about five minutes, 25 minutes?

What would be, I mean, you've got the data.

Tell me, give me a

mean.

Give me an av.

So on our 50% median here,

Angie takes about 50% longer than the rest of the family.

50%

longer.

Wow.

That's Angie.

What's that in real minutes?

Yeah, okay.

Good question, Angie.

I'll allow it.

What's that in real minutes?

It's about five minutes.

Yeah, but of course, at Colorado elevation, that's a little bit longer, right?

Because it's the atmosphere.

It's 72 hours.

Right, exactly.

Who cooks this food?

I do.

Angie does.

Most nights.

Matthew will probably do it on the weekends.

Yeah, Gene Gray is making a series of things.

I am making a note of that.

And what do you like to cook, Angie?

Well, here, you know what?

Let's get specific.

We are speaking to you on a Wednesday.

What did you have for dinner last night?

Last night we had leftovers as we're having a lot because we're trying to get out of town this weekend.

So we had, it was a noodle dish, kind of an Asian noodle dish.

Were those leftovers from the previous evening?

Over the weekend, I think.

Okay.

What's your favorite thing to cook?

Anything quick, one-pot meals.

Right.

You want to cook fast, but eat slow.

Exactly.

In the last week, we had Indian one night.

We had a one-pot Mexican thing that Matthew cooked over the weekend.

We had the noodles.

We had a lettuce wrap.

How successful is sitting down at dinner with a one-and-a-half-year-old and a, is it a two-year-old or a three-year-old?

A three-year-old.

It's very ambitious.

I mean, that's rough.

Like, will they sit?

I mean, come on, you guys.

What's happening?

The three-year-old does know that that's our rule, that we all stay at the dinner table until everyone's done.

And sometimes she eats, sometimes she doesn't.

That's her choice, either way.

And the one and a half-year-old is knock on wood, but she's stopped throwing food on the floor lately.

Congratulations.

And when you are eating slowly, is it

are you just following your own pace, or are you just really making a meal out of it as you were?

As that three-year-old is like, I want to go, and you just lean over and chew slowly right in their face.

One carinal at a time.

Yeah, I'd say I'm I'm not the parent that mocks our children, probably.

Okay.

But

let's see.

How many parents are there by process of elimination and standard deviation?

50% more likely to be Matthew is the parent who mocks the children.

Yeah, you might say that.

Why do you eat so slow?

You acknowledge that you eat slow.

What's going on?

I don't have an explanation for it.

It's been a lifelong thing.

Frequently, I would be, you know, my family wouldn't wouldn't have this rule growing up, so I would be the last one sitting all alone at the dinner table.

Ah, so this is vengeance upon your family.

You are mad for being left alone, and you are visiting your anger upon your children.

Maybe subconsciously, I suppose.

So was there an event specifically that made you,

prompted you to send in this dispute, Matthew?

I think it was our youngest child.

She was, I think she was probably teething at the time, and so it seemed just like every single night I was sitting there holding the screaming child while Angie slowly sat there, somehow not minding, but I'm just wanting to claw my eyes out while I'm holding the screaming child.

And what was Angie's demeanor as you were holding the screaming child?

Was she staring into the middle distance?

Was she attempting to have a conversation?

Was she quiet?

Was she chatty?

Describe for me.

She was her normal self.

She's not super chatty, but just engaging with the children.

Only time it would be different would be after I make a snide remark.

She would rightfully so, I think.

She would have a chew slowdown.

Not a protest.

A protest chew, yeah.

A chew stoppage.

Yeah.

What kind of snide remark are you making, Matthew?

It's usually in response to our three-year-old saying, can I get up now or can I leave the table?

And I would just make a remark, We're waiting on mommy to finish chewing.

Oh, man.

Oh, throw her under the bus.

Okay, we're going to take a quick recess and we'll hear more from Matthew and Angie when we come back.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court is back in session.

Let's get back to the courtroom for more justice.

Okay, you've sent in a bunch of evidence.

So let's take a look at it.

And of course, all this evidence is going to be available for your review, listener, at the judgejohnhodman page at maximumfund.org.

And what visual evidence we may share on Instagram will also be available on our Instagram account, which is instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

The first piece of evidence that you have sent in is a

Google spreadsheet detailing our dinner finishing times for 23 days.

Thank you for compiling all of this data.

I wonder,

were you compiling this data anyway?

Or has it just taken us 23 days to

hear your case?

I do make a lot of spreadsheets, even in my own personal life, but this was not one I had

just randomly collecting.

So you've been waiting at least 23 days.

Just as delayed as just as denied.

I apologize that your family has lived in this slow-chew limbo for so long.

This is an incredible,

I dare say, maniacal spreadsheet.

I have not seen the spreadsheet.

Have you not?

No.

I just want to believe.

I'm going to turn my computer around so that you can see it.

Oh, my.

Oh, my.

Yeah.

So there's a box plot

there, which I don't even know.

Like, it's been a while.

What do you do for a living?

Are you a statistician?

No, I work in software product management, and so part of that I do

data analysis.

So what we have here are

I'm not sure.

So there's a box plot that is a graph of the average times taken per meal in seconds.

Yes, that's correct.

Sarah, Matthew, Ava, and Angie.

Where Sarah and Ava are your children, I presume.

Yeah, Sarah is the three-year-old and Ava is the one and a half-year-old.

Right.

So what is being described here in this box plot?

So this is really describing the range of finish time.

So focusing on the box portion, the left-hand of the box is describing the 25th percentile, so 25% of the data falls below this.

The strong middle line is the median, so 50% of the data falls beneath that.

And then that upper line is the 75th percentile, so 75% of the data falls beneath that.

Then you have your outliers to the sides as well.

To a lay person, to a non-box plot pro,

it would seem that the average finishing times, both in the median and the 75th percentile, Sarah Sarah takes a little bit longer than Angie.

Am I misreading this graph, sir?

Has Sarah inherited the slow-chew gene?

I don't know if it's slow-chew or

more of a, I don't want to eat, so we're sitting there cajoling her into actually taking a bite of food.

So when she does eat, it's fairly quick, but a lot of the time she's just choosing not to eat.

Gene, you can't see this data, but I'm sure it'll be self-explanatory when I tell you that

the mean finishing time for Angie is 715.435 seconds with a standard deviation of 280 seconds.

Oh, I didn't know we were doing this in seconds?

Yeah.

Oh.

Whereas mean finishing time for Sarah, the daughter, is 741 seconds.

I'm not translating this.

With a standard deviation of 280.077.

Right.

So to me, it seems like Sarah is taking longer.

Your evidence is not working for you, Sarah.

It's working against you.

What am I misreading here in your spreadsheet?

You know, I think that's a totally valid point

for looking at it as a whole.

The main thing that I think sticks out to me to the data is it's not really an every single night we're dealing with screaming or complaining and currents.

Thankfully, our children are pretty good.

But when you look at in the percentiles portion, if you look at that tenth percentile, that's really where the issue comes in because our one and a half year old sits down and she's teething or whatever, just in a bad mood.

So she'll pretty much much instantly say she's done within a minute or so.

So it's in those 10% of the times that Angie's taking more than twice as long as Ava in those instances.

Let's go to some more subjective data, specifically a photograph that you have sent in of a half or a more or less.

I mean, I don't, I want to be really specific with my numbers now.

I would say this is a 0.67

finished piece of corn on the cob

with the caption, a picture of the maddening way Angie eats her corn.

I see nothing maddening here, sir.

It's simply a corn of cob that is 0.67th done.

And also, by the way, it looks like a beautiful little noodle salad on the plate and the depth of field down there.

It looks good.

And a lovely plate.

Yeah, a lovely plate.

And I like your corn holders, the little spikies that you've got in on the end of the corn.

How is this maddening to you, sir?

So this corn, you might have to zoom in a little bit on the corn, but if you you look at the kernels carefully,

how dare you?

You think I haven't zoomed in on this corn?

I zoomed in while I was on the way over here.

Yeah, I'm looking at all this evidence extremely carefully.

I apologize.

I'm looking at this like Blade Runner style.

I put it into a thing.

I'm like quadrant 352562 enhanced.

And it goes,

and that's how I discovered those snake scales on the corn.

For those of our listeners who might check this out on Instagram or judgejohodgman at maximumfund.org, what should we be looking for to see the madness?

So you'll notice no single kernel of corn is disturbed through her eating.

So she eats perfectly, I believe, four rows of corn in each bite, taking great care to not accidentally touch the next row of corn.

So this evidence is showing it's not that she's chewing for her health.

It's taking this excessive amount of time.

It's the preservation of the kernels surrounding the already eaten

right so each

kernel there's no kernel that has been there's no overlap right of kernel damage right i mean you say uh maddening i say attention to detail

it's an excessive attention to detail when you grew up matthew what was your family dinner table ritual like was it everyone sits at the table was it we all watched benny hill together with the salads in our laps what was it now i believe most nights we sat at the table and ate dinner together.

That all being said, I know sometimes I was actually the slow eater, and so I got the timer set on me a decent number of times in my childhood of I had to finish before the timer, but that was more of I was just messing around with it.

Matthew, Matthew, I feel like we're really glossing over this timer that you brought up just now.

Do you mean just a general or an actual physical timer?

Yeah, my mom would set the timer on the stove.

Wow.

So how much time would she give you to finish when she thought you were over time?

I was not collecting spreadsheets of data back then, so I don't know.

Well, most people can remember trauma.

In your heart.

In your heart.

What is your heart saying?

Roughly.

Give me a ballpark.

Like, you have five minutes to finish that.

Yeah, I would guess she would give me five to ten minutes is what I guess.

And I remember sitting at the table by myself there.

Were you an only child?

Nope, I have one older brother.

You guys are both bringing a lot to the table, literally and figuratively here.

Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of information in everyone's past that leads up to these moments.

Yeah, before we dig back into the past, Angie, how do you feel about the data Matthew has meticulously and weirdly compiled regarding your eating process?

I mean, I guess I do have some concerns with it, specifically July 20th.

I finished first of the four of us,

and that data got mysteriously corrupted.

Oh, so it's not included?

Where is July 20th on your

spreadsheet, Matthew?

He said he had an error in his recording.

What were you having that evening on the evening of July?

I think that was

a rap night, some sort of burrito or raps.

All right.

And then the very next week, we all finished at the same time, and also the data was lost.

Oh, my.

Interesting.

But other than that, just the act of recording, it just made me feel so rushed and

stressed out during.

Yeah, it was really stressful.

And it wasn't a good feeling.

I just want to go back to my normal pace.

You mean that when you were sitting down at the table and Matthew had his data and he had a little stopwatch there

and he had his

table of dates and times, you felt a little rushed?

Just barely.

It was weird.

Another question, when you guys are not eating with the kids or if it's just the two of you, if you're going out to eat, is it the same situation?

Or is it, you know, take your time or going out to eat with friends if that happens at all?

I mean, I definitely am the last one done, but Matthew can just jabber on about something rather than get stressed about if the kids are behaving at the table instead.

Is Matthew a generally a patient person or does he want is he kind of a go-go-go type?

He's looking at me waiting for my answer.

I'd say he's generally pretty patient.

He's definitely grown in patience in in our relationship to the point where he is a patient person now.

Angie, I feel you.

How long have you guys been married?

11 years this past Sunday.

Oh, happy anniversary.

Congratulations.

Oh, wow.

Thank you.

Thanks.

And Angie, you're home with the kids during the day.

Is that right?

Is that your job right now?

It is.

Yeah.

And so when it's just the three of you together and Matthew's not there with his stopwatch, how do you guys enjoy a lunch or a breakfast or a snack?

I I am typically the first one done at both breakfast and lunch.

The girls, I think this is pretty common for children.

They eat a huge breakfast, a regular lunch, and an almost non-existent dinner.

So breakfast and lunch, they're pretty hungry and they will eat for a long time.

And I eat a regular adult pace, I feel.

And you sit down at a table and have formal lunch and formal breakfast?

Breakfast, I usually stand at the counter behind them.

Right.

So I can empty the dishwasher or something while they're finishing.

But lunch, we usually all sit down together, yes.

Wow.

That is some dedication, I have to say.

When my kids were one and a half and three, I would just, you know, throw a piece of pizza in the corner

of the room.

Yeah.

Make them fight for it.

Let's go get it.

See what happens.

Generally speaking, Gene Gray, did your mom's scheme to have you all sit down at the table and have dinner together, did that work?

Did that happen?

Yes.

Yes.

And for breakfast and then probably not lunches just because it was busy and having, you know, us coming from all places.

And we're living different lives probably a little bit, right?

And then dinner.

Yeah.

And it's a thing, although it's just the two of us, it's definitely a, hey, we're sitting down to have dinner and also and like.

You and your husband, Quella?

Yes.

And,

or whoever's like coming over.

And a definite, like, when the food hits the table, get to the table.

Well, of course, if someone's coming over,

then you have to act like a human being but if it's just you if it's just you guys yeah you'll sit down and just wow my goodness no time really i grew up a different way yeah i'll tell you more about that after the verdict matthew have you tried giving angie a head start

oh i do pretty much every night so i uh i dish my food up last i feed the dog so the times in my glorious spreadsheet are from when i sit down at the table so at that point the children and angie have generally been eating for a couple minutes there.

They've been at it for a while.

Yep.

And you're coming late to the table, which is ruder, in my opinion.

Oh, yeah.

Angie gave a knowing laugh.

Knowing laugh.

When Matthew was a less patient person, how would his impatience manifest itself, Angie?

Oh, gosh, you're putting me on the spot here.

I think he just, in general, he's very time-sensitive, so he's always ready to get to the next thing.

Right.

Do you feel that you guys can enjoy this dinner together?

Or is it just something for Matthew to get past in order to get to the next thing?

I think in the future, putting in the time right now of everyone staying at the table will pay off for us.

Right now,

we've got a three-year-old and a one-year-old.

It's not the most pleasant experience at the table, but there are some nights where we have fun and we are able to talk about our day, and it is pleasant.

Yeah, of course.

And is there anything else that I need to know, Matthew, about Angie's eating habits?

Like, does she make gross mouth sounds?

Yes.

Yes, she does.

Oh,

no.

May I say, sir, that was a hard thing to admit on a public podcast.

I appreciate that you took your fake oath of honesty seriously, and I appreciate your openness in saying, yes, my wife makes mouth sounds while she eats.

Tell me more.

And Matthew, do you have mesophonia?

I don't have mesophonia.

I've never really noticed it with anyone other than Angie.

She claims it's

she claims it's she has,

she can jump in here, she has large molars and as a result, when she was a child, they removed one so she has kind of a gap in the back.

So when she chews, there's a lot of sound there.

And sometimes, when it's just the two of us, I just don't know how so much sound is coming from her mouth.

Matthew, can you describe how Angie is looking at you right now as you

just go ahead and talk about her large molar problem as a child?

Could you describe your wife's face?

She's smiling and looking at me right now.

Angie, you know, this is more information than I expected coming out of.

And I hate to tell you that it really does raise Matthew in this court's estimation that he is willing to be so open with us.

But how do you feel about the secret of your big molars being revealed to my podcast audience?

I mean, my parents spent thousands of dollars on dental work, so I guess this is where we ended up.

But I have nice straight teeth and they all fit in my mouth.

So that's the best we can do.

Do you challenge the fact that your molar alterations have made for strange sounds and you're chewing?

No one else in my life has ever mentioned this.

I think it's just we've spent a lot of time together.

Matthew, if I were to rule in your favor, how would you want me to rule?

Oh, Oh, I thought a lot about this question.

I think, in an ideal world that I don't know about.

I thought a lot about this question, and I have a flowchart I'd like to show you.

Do you have PowerPoint?

Go on.

I do a lot of PowerPoint in my work.

I'm sure you made a couple today, actually.

Oh,

I mean, I do have a spreadsheet of all your PowerPoints.

Go ahead, Sarah.

If she could go some sort of aggressive food eating competition training, like

I can't remember that Japanese guy.

I know that's not going to happen.

So I think ideally if the children are screaming or crying, if she could just finish and come back to her dinner later, just she says she's done and then comes back and actually finishes only in those instances that the children are fussing about.

Takeru Kobayashi.

That's who you're referring to.

Yep.

Japanese competitive eater.

Eight Guinness World Records for eating hot dogs.

So she sets her meal aside to put an official close on family meal.

And later on, once the kids are in bed,

once the kids are in bed.

Cold, cold corn.

Yeah, right.

She like maybe at two o'clock in the morning when you're asleep,

she can focus on one kernel every 10 minutes, make sure it's perfectly eaten.

Angie, what would you have me order if I were to order in your favor?

Just that you may have caught on that Matthews goes to the 10th degree on everything.

So just that he may never comment on any attribute of how I eat again or teach our children to do so.

So this includes the pace, the sound, the quantity, and the blandness of my food.

Oh, my.

I'm trying to be comprehensive.

What's the blandness comment?

Oh,

I come from northern European folk, and Matthew comes from Southern European, so he likes things much spicier than me.

Oh, I see.

So, Angie, let me make sure I understand.

You want me to prohibit comments on speed, style, sound,

and seasoning?

The four S's.

Yeah, those four S's, right?

Speed, style, sound, and seasoning.

All right, right.

Very good.

I'd also like to switch places at the dinner table so Matthew is closer to the child that needs the most help.

Oh, you guys sit in the same spots all the time?

Yeah.

So, how has that been a problem?

Is that a separate problem or is that a problem?

Oh, no, it's mixed in because part of the time when I'm supposed to be eating my own dinner, I'm also helping the children.

Oh.

Oh.

I thought he was helping the children by making snide remarks.

I have an objection to this one.

How would you say Angie is helping with the children versus how you are helping with the children?

So my issue with this one is I distinctly remember during the data collection one night, I did not put it in the notes, I knew

the younger child was going to be fussing that night and I offered to switch positions and she explicitly said no.

So calling that out as a problem makes it sound like I'm unwilling to be helping out there when there's instances where I have tried to help out feeding the children.

Are you okay with switching seats then?

Yeah.

Yep.

All right.

Nolo contunderi there.

And effectively, that happens a lot of the nights.

A lot of you are going to write in that I used nolo contunderi wrong.

Don't do it.

I know I did it wrong.

I'll figure it out myself.

Remember how I looked up

Kobayashi?

Like, I'm bettering myself every time.

And if I do something wrong or I forget something, I'll look it up.

I don't need you guys to write me.

I'm sorry, Matthew.

I was just pre-complaining to the listener.

Sorry, so you were saying?

I was saying effectively that swapping happens a lot on nights anyway.

Really with the youngest.

If she is crying, I might bring her over to my lap and then try to feed her from my lap.

So that kind of ends up happening anyway.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I am going to go sit in a vat of hot dogs that I've kept safe from competitive hot dog eater Kobayashi.

Consider my verdict, and I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom and places himself in a vat of hot dogs.

Matthew, Angie, how are you guys feeling?

Angie, how do you feel that your case went?

I think the judge is a reasonable man who sees the point of eating healthfully and eating slowly as a part of that.

And I think he'll back me in this case.

Okay, Matthew, how do you feel?

I mean, coming into this case, I didn't feel too strongly about it.

I know the court sometimes rules against weird dads or and the husbands and whatnot, so it didn't feel super great.

But I feel pretty good given that Angie's main defense is she didn't like the data.

And when people don't like the data, they just call it all into question.

So uh fake money and that's her only defense I feel pretty good okay well I actually have a lot of feelings and can relate to a lot of things so I'm just gonna talk over

Judge John Hodgman when he gets back and we'll see what he has to say about this when he comes back and we come back in just a moment

you know we've been doing my brother my brother me for 15 years and

maybe you stopped listening for a while maybe you never listened and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

You may be seated.

First of all, Matthew, I overheard from my VAT of hot dogs in my chambers that you were suggesting that Angie's defense is simply to claim that the data itself is fake news, that is corrupt.

But it is, dude.

Your data is corrupt.

The two nights that you don't even record in this thing when Angie finished first, how did that happen?

Seems sus.

I don't know what to trust in this spreadsheet anymore.

It is not comprehensive, so I'm throwing it out.

Oh my.

Mostly because I don't understand what a box plot is.

But I will acknowledge, as both parties acknowledge, that the basic problem is there, which is that Angie finishes more slowly,

on average,

than the rest of her family.

Now, two members of her family are little kids.

And I'm telling you, Gene Gray, I did not grow up in a household.

I was just me and my mom and my dad.

It's just the three of us.

And

we had a few dinners around the table.

And certainly if we had company, we would sit around the table.

But

I don't remember what was going on with me when I was two years old.

Kids at the table are hard.

That's right.

They're kids.

They're kids.

It's difficult.

I have two realms of experience here.

One was as a young person, at least, once I was fully conscious of being a human being and I was 8, 9, 10, 11, 12,

certainly into 13.

By the time I was 12 or 13, you know, we had all given up on being a family.

As an only child, I was weirdly precocious.

My parents wanted to move on with their lives.

We just ate food out of our laps watching television together every night.

There was no sitting down at the table.

And then when we would go out to dinner, I would always have the walk away option.

Yeah, which was a great option.

It was a great, yeah.

Like we go out to the Valley Steakhouse on Route 9,

and I'd bring a comic book.

And some cigarettes.

Yeah, some cigarettes.

And after I finished my food, I would be allowed to go and sit in the telephone booth and read my comic book while they had a nice time together.

That seems civilized to me.

The other realm of experience I have in this is as a parent, I feel a mixture of astonishment

and admiration

and confusion

as to what you guys are doing.

Now, this sounds very judgmental.

It's a judgy podcast.

I apologize.

It's right there in the title.

It's right there in the title.

You had to know that this was coming.

Like, I think the idea of having family meals

with a three-year-old and a one-and-a-half-year-old, that's incredibly ambitious.

Yeah.

Because they're barely human.

They just got here.

On the one hand, I want to say, let them run free.

You know, make them do a good job.

And then when they're done, let them get out of there.

And then you guys can enjoy each other's company a little bit.

Yeah.

But on the other hand, I also know that if you keep this up, as you do, they will get it.

The thing that I think of is my friend

Sean Nelson,

who

is

a writer and musician in Seattle.

He was the lead singer of the band Harvey Danger,

the song Flagpole Sita.

You remember that one from the 90s?

Sure.

Incredible singer, incredible songwriter, wonderful guy.

And he told us once about how his parents made him sit at the table until he was done.

And if he wasn't done, they would force him to sit there for hours.

And he remembers falling asleep

with his head on the table several nights.

And I know, Angie, that you were left alone at the table as a slow eater.

And I know,

Matthew, that you had a different stimulus.

You were shamed for being a slow eater.

These are things that you remember.

And maybe this is just me justifying the really slapdash job I've done as a parent to get my kids to sit down regularly for dinner.

But I have to say that if maybe there isn't something, it might be a little better to just go a little easier on this idea.

It's hard for this court

to

avoid the suspicion that

Angie is visiting the sins of her parents upon her children by making them sit around with her when her own family wouldn't before,

and that Matthew is visiting the sins of his mom upon his wife by wanting to put a timer on her just as it was done on him.

I will say this.

Obviously, your intentions are incredibly good.

You want to create...

a family dinner where you guys can share with each other and you're having some success at it.

And I think with more discipline than I've been able to put into the raising of my own children, you'll have more and more success over time as you lay down reasonable expectations for the time that you all are there together as a family.

But I think this is not a ruling.

This is a thing for you to consider

that

maybe

ease up on the data collection.

Passive or in your case, Matthew, active.

Mealtime can be an incredibly nourishing time for a family, or it can be an extremely stressful time for a family.

And what you want your kids to remember is not my parents made me sit at the table while mama ate each kernel of corn and have that be the story.

You want them to remember having a good time at the table.

So, you know, it's your life.

It's your family.

You can make whatever adjustments you want to make or zero adjustments at all.

But I would suggest that you consider easing up a little in terms of both how long the kids have to sit there and just being a little bit more flexi-flexy and don't count the kernels of corn so carefully.

And if I may interject very, very, very quickly.

Yeah, I think it, because it translates to not only shaping how you, you know, think down of eating dinner, but it just translates to your relationship with food.

And,

you know, we should all try to have the most healthy relationship with food that we can.

It kind of sticks with you.

Yeah.

So, you know, whatever you can do to set standards, but also be light, be light about it.

Yeah.

You know, to not make the dinner time a chore.

And kids have a threshold that is shorter than most adults.

It's very short.

I think you set reasonable expectations.

I think you guys are killing it so far.

But what you need to do in order to make sure that it's fun for everybody is go easy, not only on the kids, but also on each other.

Yeah.

You know, Angie, slow eating is the worst thing in the world.

I'll be honest.

There is a slow eater in my extended family.

And it is hard not to wonder what the heck is going on as we adults are sitting there politely waiting for this person.

I don't know what's happening.

It does feel, you know.

It sometimes feels as an act of aggression, you know, and especially if you're a kid waiting to get out of it and mama's just like, choo, choo, choo, choo, choo, choo.

At the same time, Angie, I want to respect the fact that you don't wolf your food, like the monster Matthew that you are married to, who's got to get on to the next thing.

Got to make those spreadsheets.

Yeah, you got to fletcherize that food.

You got to enjoy it.

I love the way you eat corn.

That's beautiful.

It's great.

It is a work of art.

But you also have to make some acknowledgement that everyone's going at a different pace.

And

a dinner is like theater.

You know, when the the show's over, then there's little point in extending it past its natural life.

It's reasonable to say to the kids, you got to stay a little bit longer and then call it a day.

But in order to make it the most enjoyable it can, given the age of your kids, you guys have to look at each other and silently understand, like, it's done now.

We got to move on with our evening.

And that may not always be as soon as you want it to be, Matthew, or as late as you would like it to be, Angie.

But of of course, marriage is all about everyone being unhappy.

So I would definitely say consider please putting down the actual or figurative stopwatches

and don't let this become a point of contention.

It's not worth it.

It's not worth it.

But since it is a point of contention, I have to rule in someone's favor.

I am going to have to say there are two parts to this.

One,

Angie should eat at the pace that she likes, but she has to understand that when dinner is over for everyone else, she can't hold them hostage to the table.

If you're going slow, Angie,

you know, Matthew, be polite, stick around, but you got to let those kids loose.

Maybe find a way to let them loose so that they can just play on the floor while you guys finish and have some time together or something else.

And then I also have to rule, though, no way, Matthew, can you be making comments about your wife to your kids?

That is so,

so awesome, my man.

You can't be talking about how bland her food is.

You can't be talking about how slow she chews.

And no matter how weird she eats her corn, your job is to be on the same side as your wife in the theater of dinner, as it is Angie's job to be on your side.

The communication between you about this has to be mutual and to a certain degree silent and supportive.

So I'm kind of finding half in Angie's favor.

You can't make comments at the table like that, Matthew.

I'm also finding half in a separate count I'm finding in Matthew's favor, which is that Angie, when Matthew gives you that look, like it's really, we got to wrap this up.

You may have to be like, I'll get back to this corner.

Look down at that corner of the column.

You're like, I will see you later.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Well, Angie, Matthew, how are you feeling?

I know he said it's half and half, but I feel this is a solid win for me.

I get to eat at my own pace and not be made fun of for it, so it sounds great.

Okay, Matthew.

I also am claiming this victory.

I knew I shouldn't be making those snide remarks, so

just reinforcing that, but I did hear that Angie needs to sometimes put a pause on it.

I feel like we got to a really really healthy place here today, and I'm really proud of everyone.

Matthew, Angie, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm glad everyone won today.

That is another case in the books.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Carol Sanchez for naming this week's episode, Requesting an Immediate Ingestion.

If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out a call for submissions.

Follow us on Twitter at Gene Greezy and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H O, and check out the maximum fun subreddit to discuss this episode.

One more social media plug, the Judge John Hodgman account on Instagram, because I forgot to mention that Angie sent in some evidence that we will post on that.

Fantastic.

And it is a photo of, I believe, Matthew with four D batteries in his mouth.

Mickey Ficky D battery.

Check it out.

This week's episode was recorded by Tyler Hayden at Rocky Mountain Recordings in Denver, Colorado, and by Ivan Kuraev.

At Argo Studios in New York City, our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Pushy M asks, should we save the twisty ties and plastic tab bag fasteners from store-bought bread to reuse?

I say yes.

Husband says, why bother?

I have never kept one of those in my life.

I find them to be garbage immediately.

That said, there's no reason not to keep those things.

It's not a burden upon your husband if you keep them and try to reuse them.

What I would suggest is hoard them in a little, in a little cache somewhere out of the way, and use them to make a little creepy doll of your husband.

I was going to say, you can make great dolls.

Exactly.

All right.

I think that's it.

Is that it?

That's it.

Oh, that's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfun.org/slash jjho or email hodgman at maximum fun.org.

No cases too small.

Clearly.

No case.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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