Don't Call the Next Witness

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Don't Call the Next Witness.

Kirya brings the case against her mother, Tanya.

Tanya hates talking on the phone.

She doesn't even have a phone anymore.

But Kirya is worried about Tanya's safety and also wants to be able to call her.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

You understand, because you are from here, that this is a state full of people who don't want to see or talk to other people.

Now, you've been down there in Brookline for a while where everyone enjoys a good jaw, but your sister has moved back to a place where if she never sees another person, that's a good thing.

And she's working specifically in a work environment where it is encouraged that no one ever speak.

That said, I'm going to make you make them speak right now, Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Kirya, Tanya, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he only speaks with others through a playground talking tube, one of those things with a bell on the end made out of metal where you can talk to your six-year-old across a playground?

Absolutely.

I do.

Judge Hodgman.

You may be seated.

Not just my six-year-old, any six-year-old who comes by.

Yeah.

Whoever happens fast.

That's my new podcast.

So Kiri and Tanya, you are down there in Brooklyn, New York, where I will soon be returning.

Excuse me, you're not in Brooklyn, you're in Manhattan at Argo Studios.

Is that not correct?

That is correct.

Right.

I am in the studios of WERU with our guest producer, Joel Mann.

Hello, Joel.

Hello, Judge.

Jesse Thorne is at Maximum Fund headquarters in Los Angeles.

We have tied all of this technology and wires and string together.

in order to speak to you and resolve your dispute between mother and a daughter.

But before we do, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Tanya, you are the mom.

Why don't you guess first?

I don't know.

Okay.

I have to guess.

You do have to guess.

It can be anything.

What was the last book you read?

I'm blanking.

Do you watch television?

Yes.

What was your first pet's name?

What street did you grow up on?

Do you need help?

Blink twice.

I'm not going to ask you what was the last podcast you listened to because I know it's going to be the McElroy Brothers or Floppouse.

So

that laugh just betrayed the truth of what I just said.

I love them all.

I love all those brothers and floppies.

Why don't you guess,

oh, I know.

Why don't you guess the book of short stories, Notes from the Fog by Ben Marcus, who actually wrote a novel called The Age of Wire and String and is a friend of mine.

And he wrote a really good book of short stories called Notes from the Fog that is just out now.

Is that your guess?

That's my guess.

Notes from the Fog.

That's an incredible guess available from Knopf publishers at this very moment.

Now, Kirio, do you have a guess?

Yes.

Well, I was going to guess Lionel Ritchie, but that's not what that was.

So that was my prepared guess.

So

I'm going to go with...

I just finished Vacation Land.

Another fine book.

But I don't think it was that because I don't remember that.

So

continue to talk it through.

Who wants to be a millionaire style?

I'm going to guess Painful Beaches by John Hodgman.

Painful Beaches, which is the subtitle of the book Vacation Land by John Hodgman.

Oh, right.

Joel Mann, is that her final answer?

That is her final answer.

All guesses are wrong.

But thanks for the plugs.

You know, of the two of you, Kirio was closer

because I was indeed quoting myself.

Specifically, I was quoting my verdict from Judge John Hodgman episode number 282, which we recorded live here in Portland, Maine in the fall of 2016 at the Port City Music Hall, when I adjudicated between two sisters, Afton and Hannah Cyrus.

Afton was mad that her sister Hannah would not get a smartphone so that they could text together.

And also, because she lived in Maine, was fairly unreachable by cell phone to begin with.

And Afton wanted me to to order Hannah, who is a librarian here, by the way, Joel, at the Blue Hill Library.

Yes, I know.

Okay, sorry.

I'm small town up here.

In any case, Afton wanted Hannah to get a smartphone so she could call her and text her all the time because she loves her sister.

And Hannah was like, no, thank you.

And did not want to ever text and basically want to be left alone.

And while I did not order her to get a smartphone that was text capable, I did order her to replace her old flip phone so that she could at least be reachable and to get a landline.

And I mentioned this case, obviously, because it's a direct precedent to your case, Kirya and Tanya, because Tanya, your daughter Kirya, would like you to answer the phone.

Not only have you given up the possibility of getting a smartphone, you've given up your phone altogether.

Is that not right, Tanya?

This is true.

You have no cell phone at all.

No cell phone, no landline, nothing.

It must be incredibly liberating.

Yeah.

I'm able to email everybody.

Oh, okay.

So you still have some technology.

Oh, yeah.

I was just going to ask what cave you live in.

The cave of Berkeley.

Berkeley, California?

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

I'm sure there's some Luddite hermits out there that you could get into a drum circle with.

And what do you do out there in Berkeley, California?

Oh, I work at a bakery.

Oh, nice.

I don't mean to buzz market, but I genuinely want to know what bakery you work at.

I work at Nabalome Bakery and Pizzeria in the Elmwood.

We reversed our long-standing rule.

We buzz market everything now.

Everyone needs a little help.

As a native of the Bay Area living in Los Angeles, just hearing the name of a bakery in Berkeley is enough to make me dream about bread.

I can't wait to get you up here to Maine, Jesse, so you can try the Tinder hearth bread made here in Maine, which is part of New England, a region of the United States.

What a life you're leading off the grid in in wonderful Berkeley, California.

Kiria, you do not live in California, though.

You are aware?

I live in Brooklyn.

You live in Brooklyn?

And you want to talk to your mom?

Yeah.

She doesn't want to talk to you.

Why not?

I don't know.

It hurts my feelings.

Oh, dear.

Yeah, I've lived away from California for seven years.

And then when we both lived in California, there was a couple years when we're both in the Bay Area, but there was several years when she lived farther north in Mendocino, California.

And she had a phone then, but not a cell phone.

Anyways, she's always been hard to reach on the phone.

So she had a phone when she lived in Mendocino.

When did the phone get thrown away, Tanya?

I was between jobs a couple years back, and I just started figuring out ways I could save money in every area.

And when the cell phone my brother had given me, the battery started to die, I thought, well, let's just let the whole thing go and save some money.

So, it was an economic consideration.

Yeah, but also then I wouldn't have to talk on a phone anymore.

Right.

What is your problem with phones?

I mean, I'll be honest with you.

I agree with you.

Talking on the phone is terrible.

Oh, God.

This is awful.

Yes.

By the way, what's happening now?

I'm trying to turn this whole podcast into a Slack channel, buzz market number two.

But meanwhile, we still have to do this.

Still have to talk face to face or voice to voice from time to time.

What's your problem with phones?

I need a visual when I'm talking to somebody.

I need to watch their face.

So I have a real problem on the telephone.

And also, my whole family, you know, my siblings and my mother, we don't call.

We email.

We're funnier in print, you know, when we have a minute to collect our thoughts.

And we have really long pauses on the phone.

It's not good.

And so when you can't see Kirya, she might as well not exist to you.

That's what you're saying.

It's like an object permanence problem that the babies have.

No, it's just stressful to interpret language without a visual.

Well, I appreciate you're doing this remote podcast with me.

Yes.

Please be advised that my face is beaming with gratitude and happiness that you're here.

And it is also probably the handsomest face in the world.

Good to know.

Just take that on faith.

So, you guys do communicate, but not by phone.

And what is the method that you use to communicate?

Get ready for BuzzMarket number three.

I prefer email.

Kyria prefers Facebook messaging.

Kyria.

I want immediate communication.

Like I want something that I can get a response and we can have an exchange.

But Kiria, you understand that Facebook, going way back to the first year of Judge John Hodgman, someone talking about Facebook was the reason I made the no buzz marketing rule on this because I didn't want to buzz market Facebook.

And now Facebook has destroyed our democracy.

And you would bring it up again.

Okay.

By the way, thanks, everyone.

If you want to contribute titles to the Judge John Hodgman Show, go to our Facebook group.

It's a lot of fun.

All right.

So you're trying to replicate

the moment-to-moment feeling of a conversation by using a messenger texting type platform on Facebook.

Is that right?

Yes.

And before she got rid of her cell phone, I compromised and we used WhatsApp.

And then I could send another buzz market,

but less often.

I know.

You're getting money from everyone now.

But I could send voice memos.

So I could even, because my issue is I'm almost the opposite kind of brain as my mom, I guess.

I prefer to talk it out.

It's harder for me to write out my thoughts.

It takes me longer.

I second-guess all the words.

When I'm talking, I feel freer.

I feel I can connect my ideas better.

So when we had a messaging app where I could send voice memos, then I could at least send that to her and she could respond however she wanted.

But then she got rid of a cell phone and there's no app like that for a computer, for a desktop computer.

So she

drove me to Facebook, I guess, I would argue.

But Kiria and Tanya, I mean, there are obvious face-to-face communication techniques.

I mean, we might as well say them all now.

Skype, FaceTime,

Looksie, that's one I just made up.

Video Fauna, that's another one I made up.

Hey Toots.

Hey Tooth?

Hey Toots.

Hey Toots?

Yeah, Hey Toots and Hey Tooth.

Let's just get Jennifer Marmor to just lock down all those domains right now so that we can start all of our apps that are going to solve all of Tanya and Kirya's problems.

But have you tried those video conferencing possibilities, Kirya?

Maybe I asked my mom to try one of the ones you didn't mention that I could throw it on the pile if you want, or I can leave it out.

Yeah, let's do it.

Google Voice.

Google Voice.

Yeah, which also has Hangouts, which has the visual version.

And I think it was Facebook was just a technology that she knew how to use easily because I wasn't there to sort of help her figure it out.

Right.

Because she's a mom.

Yeah.

A savvy mom, but you know, tech is weird.

So you sent in some evidence of how you do communicate, which is using this messaging platform that shall no longer be named.

And this particular conversation came through on April 2017.

So Tanya says, mom says, you make every one of these dresses look amazing.

How the heck are you going to choose?

Ha ha, says daughter.

I feel like I'm narrowing it down.

Which one of these is your favorite?

Mom, so I looked again, and I think my very favorite is the one with the sheer long sleeves, completely backless.

Daughter, backless has been a good look for me so far.

Thank you guys for sending this in.

This is great.

I love this.

Then there's a pause.

And then, Kiria, you say, want to try a Facebook call again today?

And mom says,

uh,

four hours later.

Just got back from a run, got got a shower, wash hair, start laundry.

Kiria, maybe later or no?

Uh I guess I'm feeling kind of quiet today.

Okay, mama.

So sad.

Later.

Oh, I had a thought in the shower.

You should call me Ma.

Is that your grandmother?

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

And then you say, Kiria, I'll consider it.

And then you say, I'll admit I still like to call my mama to get moral support.

When I call other people, I like to be able to offer moral support.

Not sure I have that today.

Maybe this is why you never want to talk on the phone with me.

This is the saddest thing I've ever heard.

Tanya,

how do you feel Kirya's feeling when you're blowing her off because you got to wash her hair and she wants moral support by the phone?

You know, I was thinking today that I've been letting Kirya down in the area of conversations and more than just the phone.

When she was little, she'd always start to get energized and philosophical in the evening, and I was going downhill.

Brain wasn't working.

Last thing I wanted to do was talk.

And yeah, and it was just me and her, poor thing.

So you're finding against yourself.

Are we done?

Not only have you found against yourself in this case, but also through all of motherhood, going back to childhood,

you've been leaving Kirya hanging because you felt tired and didn't feel like talking.

But Kirya, not feeling like talking is a very, very

common feeling, especially among parents and really among anyone.

Wouldn't you say, Joel, do you often feel like talking?

Like right now?

Yeah.

No.

Right.

See, Joel doesn't like to talk.

Sometimes talking on the phone is a drag.

Can't you feel how your mom feels a little bit there?

Okay.

Yes.

And I have many other friends that happen to be introverts.

And here's the thing that I want to say is that I think my mother is completely underselling herself as a conversationalist.

I am a very chatty person, but I think I learned good talking and listening skills actually from my mom.

And when the two of us are together and we get going, we're just really chatty.

And usually when we're in person, I'll admit, but sometimes over the phone.

And I want to do that with her.

There's a certain way that we talk that I can't get from anyone else.

So when I ask her to talk, it's because I want that like special mom-daughter chatty spark that I get from her.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

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Welcome back.

Court is back in session.

Let's get back to the courtroom for more justice.

Kiria, when you say that you're looking for moral support, tell me more about that.

Or you know what?

Don't tell me.

Tell your mom.

You guys are in the same room together there in New York, right?

Yes, we are.

All right.

This is it.

I have facilitated face-to-face communication with your mom.

You should take this opportunity.

That's true.

You really have.

She came all the way from the Bay Area to New York for this conversation.

So good job.

Thank you, Judge.

So say to your mom what it is that you get out of a voice-to-voice communication that you don't get out of

messaging.

My mom's a really good listener.

Or, mom, you're a really good listener.

And even when nice adjustments, Kiria, I like that.

Thank you.

Even when you're not talking, you make really good not talking sounds like mm-hmm and mmm.

And

you are very comforting in the way that you listen.

And then

you can do good sort of listening back or reporting back what you heard.

And there's a way that you make me feel supported and like I'm not crazy when I talk to you.

Now, see, Tanya, isn't that worth getting a landline for?

Maybe if the phone didn't ring, I could handle it.

You're saying you would get one if she never called?

You just have to do what all the young people do and message me to let me know she's calling.

I'm sorry if I seem a little harsh on you, Tanya.

I think that it is because I am jealous, because you have embraced a profoundly rebellious way of life by throwing your phone away.

Today, that is rather unconventional, and it does seem quite liberating.

How does it feel,

you know, walking out of your house knowing that no one can reach you or send you a text or get at you in any way until you choose to sit at your desk?

It's good.

And also I

like Kirios talking about safety as I get older here, but

something came up recently and I was able to do everything on foot and email and got through without needing a phone to call for help.

What was it that came up recently that was a safety concern?

I hurt myself at work.

Oh no.

Badly?

Briefly, it was pretty bad.

Just the knee.

I slipped and fell.

Yeah.

Oh, no.

And so you were able to hobble your way to a clinic or something?

Yeah.

I walked to the emergency the next morning and I had already had a dentist appointment scheduled, so I had to ride my bike to that.

May I interject?

Good, please.

Like she said, she hurt herself really badly.

And luckily, it didn't swell swell up right away.

But when I showed up, because I was, I happened to be in California and I showed up a day or so after it happened.

And suddenly I walked in on her being swollen and having to put her leg up.

And if it had been worse, she might have been, I don't know, left on the street.

And I would have no idea.

And I mean, I guess a landline only solves it if it happens at home.

So part of me really does want to have a cell phone because it's 2018.

But yeah, that's a serious thing.

And then it's California and it's on fire all the time.

And, you know, what if there's suddenly a wildfire and, you know, things happen quickly.

I'm seriously worried about it.

But she does not live in one of the famous caves of Berkeley.

She lives in a population-dense area with a lot of, let's face it, a lot of bicycles.

And also,

you know, a lot of people around.

If she hurt herself at work, she can rely on the kindness of strangers because everyone else has two or three cell phones to get her.

If there was something that required an ambulance, someone would have called an ambulance for her.

I guess that's true.

It's just, you know, I didn't get a call that was like, hey, I fell by the way.

Be prepared when you see me.

I will be injured.

She doesn't care about you.

She doesn't want to talk about you.

Why are you having difficulty exploring?

I know.

That's how I feel.

Tanya, how do you feel when you hear that Kirya just feels blown off?

Uh,

not good.

I'm going to tell you, Tanya, I don't believe you.

I feel like you need to say not good, but I think you're actually pretty comfortable with the fact that you took care of yourself and didn't worry your daughter.

Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty obnoxiously independent.

Yes, it sounds like it.

Yeah.

But I mean, I say that with admiration.

Do you see what I mean?

Like,

I think that, you know, as an increasingly elderly parent myself,

I would not want to feel like I had to call my children every time I had a bad

knee or whatever, a boo-boo.

How do you deal with like other things like customer service reps or calling the...

Do you have electricity?

Do you bother with that?

Yes.

I live in a house.

My big brother is above me and my sister-in-law in front of me.

So they can make phone calls if necessary.

Though I did change my computer support to if something goes wrong, they're just a few blocks away.

I don't need to call them.

I can walk over and ask for help.

You have radically downsized your life.

Yes, I will walk five miles rather than make a phone call.

Oh my God.

Wow, you really dislike it.

And you also really like sponging off your brother and sister for phone assistance as needed.

You know what you're like?

You're like Henry David Thoreau.

Joel Mann, did you know that Thoreau is pronounced Thoreau?

No, I did not know that.

I learned that on the radio last summer in Maine.

Jesse Thorne, did you know that?

No.

Public radio told me that.

Thoreau, famously in Walden, lived by himself in a cabin to embrace the natural life and renounced earthly things except when he got hungry.

And then he walked a block to Emerson's house and got a pie.

That's right.

That's how you live.

There's another piece of evidence that I just want to visit quickly.

Okay.

This is from a later conversation in October of 2017.

Tanya, your daughter writes, are you around?

Want to try a phone call?

At 6.31 p.m.

And it's not until 8 p.m.

that you respond, hi.

I was down at the Vivarium getting Gretel a wooden hide so she won't drive me nuts scraping, scraping, scraping, scraping, scraping, scraping in her pottery hide.

But god damn it, she is too big for their giant hide.

I will have to go back to see if, one, I can return it even though I removed label and staples, and two, they can special order an even more giant one.

Sigh.

Tanya, two questions.

One, you just ghosted on your daughter.

You didn't even answer her request for a phone call because you went into this monologue.

Two,

what are you talking about?

Who is Gretel?

And what is the hide?

And what is the scraping?

I was having trouble with my turtle.

Your turtle?

Yes.

My, okay.

This is getting stranger and stranger.

Gretel is your turtle.

Yeah, she's almost 30 years old.

No, 40.

Oh, my goodness.

No, really?

Yeah, she's almost 40.

We've had her for 30.

I've had her for 30.

She's actually a Russian desert tortoise.

Yeah.

A Russian desert tortoise named Gretel.

Is the Vivarium in question the East Bay Vivarium, the Bay Area's largest reptile store?

True.

Man, that store is so awesome.

I used to go there when I was a kid.

That's got to be buzz market number six.

I love it.

This is some premium East Bay buzz marketing that our listeners are getting.

If somebody brings up the store Kimono My House,

which sells like Ultraman toys

and has sold ultraman toys for like 35 years, then we will have completed the tour of best small businesses of the San Francisco Bay Area.

First of all, Jesse, I did not know that you were herpetologically inclined, that you might go down to the Vivarium.

Tell that to my childhood frog, Boutros Boutros Froggy.

That's a great thing.

I forgot about Boutros Boutros Froggy.

Do you prefer a wooden hide or a pottery hide?

I'll take any hide I can get.

Any hide in a storm.

What is a hide, Tanya?

A little cave.

Wait a minute.

You're telling me that you've got a turtle in a cave and you're living in a metaphoric cave?

Uh-oh.

I did not think this through.

Do you have a whole prehistoric lifestyle?

Does it count in my favor that I kicked Gretel out of the house and she lives outdoors now?

She used to have a tortoise that lived in your house?

Yes.

For 30 years.

For 30 years.

Yes.

do you wear clothing or hides

if i may ask tanya what is your age uh 57.

and do you have any other children no besides your daughter and your tortoise

right

one daughter one tortoise you are unmarried currently right completely on your own

And like 10 years ago, you were like, I got to make some changes in my life.

I'm getting rid of this cell phone.

I'm kicking this tortoise out of my house.

And the next chapter of my life begins.

There's a part of me that feels like if we ask her if she has a fish, she'll be like, oh, you mean the celiocanth?

Historically.

Living in Berkeley, California with a tortoise and no phone.

I mean, your mom's a rock star, Kiria.

Fantastic.

Well, she certainly enjoys

a Berkeley kind of

eccentricity.

I think she's among friends.

What do you do in Brooklyn?

And do you have a weird reptile?

Well, that was my weird reptile.

We got her when I was five

and she was older than me.

Yeah.

So I'm in my mid-30s and she's almost 40 because she's my big sister.

But no, I don't have a reptile now.

I live in Brooklyn with my partner and my dog.

I'm in theater.

I'm a playwright and an actor.

Oh, great.

Yeah.

Do you ever think about moving back?

Because it may be the only way you ever talk to your mother again.

Oh, God.

Well, yeah.

I mean, I just repressed a sort of groan when you asked me about moving back

because both my partner and I are from the Bay Area and both of our parents live out there.

And that is the thing that would probably bring us back.

I mean, I love my life in Brooklyn and I love the theater world in New York.

And so the Bay Area, while there is some theater, it's not the same.

I love to visit.

I don't want to live there.

But I don't know what the future will bring.

Tanya, is all of this removal of contact a passive-aggressive trick to get your daughter to move back to you, or would you rather she stay away or go further away?

I love how she's thriving in New York.

But she comes back at least once a year for, you know, the holidays.

I can read that language.

Stay away.

Continue to thrive elsewhere.

But you may finish your thought.

Sometimes I daydream about moving to New York, but I'm a sissy about the seasons.

You'd have to get that tortoise registered as a comfort animal to fly.

Unless you and the tortoise are going to like hitchhike across the country, which would be a really true Tanya kick-ass move.

But seriously, Tanya,

you hear your daughter reaching out to you, and you're brushing her off on Facebook.

And she's saying very openly to you in these messages, I miss my mama.

I miss talking to my mom.

And as a parent of a child who in two seconds,

two years, but it'll feel like two seconds about to go to college, like this really tugs at me.

Like I would be so thrilled.

if my child wanted to have a conversation with me because she kind of doesn't right now.

Yeah.

You know, doesn't that make you feel like maybe you know, open up one channel of communication just so that your daughter can hear your voice from time to time?

Uh,

yes.

Don't say what I want to hear.

No, say what's true.

I mean, the answer could be no.

The answer could be like, no, it's more important to me.

This is the way I feel comfortable communicating.

I love my daughter and we see each other a couple times a year, but I just don't like hanging on the phone.

And I am also a real human being and just because I'm mom, that doesn't mean my preferences mean nothing.

That would be something you could say.

I'm just trying to find out what the truth of your feelings are here.

When you hear your daughter saying, I want to talk to my mom, and she's saying it to you on this thing, and you're kind of like,

Gretel is being bad again.

Like rather than diverting the conversation away from, can we have a phone call to the tortoise is being a real jerk

like just say no i don't want to have a phone call because

right

i could be clearer so say that to her now and finish that sentence my only child i don't want to talk to you on the phone because

oh sometimes i'm not good for anyone especially you kiria

on the phone or otherwise

that is not true

How could it not be true if she said it?

Yeah, I kind of think the kind of parent who would declare to their child that they're not good for them is like ipso facto not good for them.

That's my worry.

I knew this was going to be therapy.

Parents are supposed to think they have something to offer their children, aren't they?

Well, we're not always available.

But they're at least net neutral.

Why do you think that you're not good for curia, especially on the phone?

Oh, just sometimes.

Like, for instance, when I'm stressed out with the turtle and running around town.

Right.

Do you feel when you're on the phone,

does it kind of feel like you're under pressure to respond or engage in a way that you're just not ready to do so?

Like maybe when you're being interrogated.

by a podcast host who you've never met in your life about the deepest part of your relationship with your daughter.

Maybe that feels a little bit like pressure.

Maybe a little.

Maybe you prefer to write a considered letter later and tape it to the back of Gretel and send her on the way.

Are you wondering if the East Bay Vivarium has a hide big enough for you right now?

Scrape, scrape, scrape, scrape.

Tanya, look, I appreciate your allowing me to put you on the spot.

And I think I've heard what you have to say.

Okay.

So, Kirya, if I were to order in your favor, what would you have me order?

My first first thought was it would be simpler and like less

technology, less, you know, figuring it out if she got a landline.

But I think she would enjoy a cell phone more because it has other features on it that aren't just the phone, such as taking pictures.

And

she loves Suducco, stuff like that.

And she does like to take pictures when she last had a cell phone.

She did have a good Instagram page.

So I think that she should have a cell phone and that she would enjoy it for many things, including me calling her and also calling 911 if needed.

Tanya, do you buy this upsell that Kirya is trying to give you?

Like, it's really just a device for playing Sudoku and tracking your tortoise's steps and health.

And it also happens to have a direct line from me.

So I can reach you when I need to.

I'm a little tempted, especially because, you know, I could get a phone and not give my number to anyone except Kirya.

That's true.

You could.

Yeah.

And if I were to order in your favor, Tanya, Tanya, don't jump to finding against yourself.

If I were to order in your favor, what would you have me order?

Things stay the same?

You only have phone conversations with your tortoise?

That I could bumble along without a phone.

Before I go into my pottery hide, which I call my chambers, to make my verdict.

I'll ask you both the same question that I asked the Cyrus sisters before I went in to make my verdict on their case.

Kiria,

are you talking to your mom enough?

No, I am not.

Tanya, please answer honestly.

At the current moment, are you in contact with your daughter enough?

I think so.

I appreciate your honesty.

I'm going to go scrape my hide.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Kiria, your case seems like it would be a sympathetic one.

A young woman who wants to spend more time talking to her mother on the phone.

Are you at all concerned that my mother might hear this episode?

Yes, I'm very concerned for all the millennials that are trying to avoid their mothers.

Yes.

How do you feel about your chances in the case?

Well, you know, I never want want to count my chickens before they hatch, especially with the judge.

I do think that he had a point when he started talking about, you know, respecting her autonomy and

badassery.

But I think I have a really strong case.

So, yeah.

Tanya, it's rare that a parent comes out of a case so on the defensive as you were.

How do you feel about your chances?

Not expecting to win.

Are you hoping for compromise?

I like compromises.

Like maybe you two just have to come on the Judge John Hodgman podcast once a month.

Excellent.

Sounds great.

We'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So thanks to the incredible production skills of Jennifer Marmor in L.A.

and Joel Mann here in Maine.

and Paul Rust over there at Argo Studios, you, the listeners, have not discerned the incredible technological troubles we had in getting this conversation going.

There have been at least three or five different phone call routes and other kinds of ways to try to patch all these people in.

And one of the strange things about all of the technological advancement that we've enjoyed that have drawn our world so close together is that the one technology that seems to be getting worse is voice-to-voice communication.

I remember talking on a landline phone, it was crystal clear as can be.

And now every phone call is profoundly annoying, both because it sounds bad and it's hard to get a clear signal, but also because we have other options now.

We have the option of texting, which creates anxiety in everyone's lives.

We have the option of email, which is a little bit more relaxed.

We have the option of taking a moment to consider what we're going to say or whether we should not say anything at all.

And consequently, every time the phone rings in my house and we have a landline, we presume that either a telemarketer is calling or a close family member has died.

And I'm not sure which is worse.

But it is a terrible feeling to get a phone call a lot of the time.

And I very much sympathize with Tanya's choice, as you could tell.

I not merely sympathize, but in many ways, I'm jealous of the rather radical maneuver of getting rid of a phone, both land and mobile, altogether and taking all of those options off the table.

That said, I also sympathize with curious concern, however, that being completely cut off from voice-to-voice communication is kind of dangerous.

One of the reasons we have a landline is that I don't reliably believe that I could get through to emergency services on my cell phone if and when I need them.

It costs very little money to maintain a landline, and I know that I will be able to get emergency services to come and save a life as necessary.

And Kiri also wants to talk to her mom.

And that's really hard to rule against a child's desire

to communicate with her own mother

voice to voice, if not face to face.

Surely you would imagine, given precedent, that if the situation were reversed and mom wanted to talk to daughter and daughter didn't want to talk to mom by phone and mom also was raising a 40-year-old tortoise, of course this podcast would rule on the side of weird mom.

But in this case,

Tanya has come to the court with a lot of honesty.

So have you, Kirya.

You've talked openly about your feelings for your mom and how you want to talk to her.

And that touches the court's heart.

But Tanya did not merely say she didn't feel she was always good for Kirya on a phone call, but she even went back so far as to say maybe she was terrible at conversation going back years when she was tired.

You know, Kirya, your mom, Tanya, is a young person.

57 years old is young.

Right, Joel?

Absolutely.

Right.

How old are you again, Joel?

45.

In this incarnation, but this is your ninth reincarnation?

Yes.

Right.

That's what I thought.

And she lives in a highly population, dense place where there are a lot of people to look after.

She's living with her brother and sister.

There is something compelling, even though I feel that it is hard for a child to hear that their parent doesn't want to talk to them on the phone.

There is something compelling about the honesty that comes at a certain point in life when you're starting a new chapter, as I feel clearly Tanya has been doing.

It's like, I'm 57 years old.

My child is raised.

She left behind this tortoise that I got to care for, Gretel, who is a pain in the butt, scraping, scraping, scraping, scraping.

I'm working at a bakery, and I know things about myself.

And one of the things I know about myself now is I don't like to talk on the phone.

And therefore, I don't want to do it.

And I'm sorry if it hurts my daughter, but I don't feel like doing it.

And I will be open to her in other ways, ways that I think I can be better for her.

That's what I took away from what Tanya was saying, all of her testimony.

And I have to say, it is a compelling, hard thing to say to your child, I don't think I'm great for you on the phone.

It's a hard thing to do.

And I feel that the court needs to honor this and needs to find in favor of weird mom and tortoise.

At least in the sense that Kiria needs to appreciate that her mom is going through something.

and choosing a new way of life.

And that is her right to do so.

She's not just mom.

she is a human being in her own right who has her own weird eccentricities that she should be allowed to explore, just as she has tolerated your eccentricities and your desire to go work in the theater or whatever you've done in your life.

It's clear that your mom loves you, she loves the way you wear dresses, she's engaged with you, she tends to be a little bit deflective whenever you ask for a phone call,

but unfortunately, this is not her thing.

So, I am ruling in Tanya's favor,

but I'm going going to say this.

There is another way.

There is a story in American culture about two people, not mother and daughter, but two very close people

who really belonged together, but were estranged.

And one of them did not want to talk to the other one.

And the other one...

wanted to leave a channel of communication open for emergencies and also just for a change of heart.

And so that person FedExed a cell phone to the other person saying, whenever you need me, call me.

The person who received that cell phone was Tony Stark, Iron Man, in Avengers Civil War.

The person who sent it, Steve Rogers, Captain America.

Since Tanya got rid of this phone for financial reasons to begin with,

And since it's more important to Kirya that she have some sort of line of contact to her mom in case her mom has an emergency or if Kirya has an emergency and just needs her mom.

There is no way this court would ever stop Kirya from Captain-Americaning her mom and sending her a phone that she has paid for.

Be it a fancy cell phone that she's going to use as a honey trap to get her mom back into using phones again,

or a simple burner that Tanya will agree to answer should Kirya call it in need, and that Tanya can use to reach her daughter when she realizes, hey, you know what?

I'm feeling pretty good for my daughter right now.

One line of communication that you are going to pay for, Kiria, and you're going to send it via FedEx.

There's another buzz market.

I don't know why I chose FedEx.

Why not UPS?

Who knows?

Whichever one you use,

enter promo code Judge Sean Hoshman for $5

off

and send along that phone.

You can choose what phone it is.

It depends upon whatever you can can afford, Kirya.

I know you work in the theater in New York.

But I think it's reasonable for you to send that line of communication out there for your mom to use if she needs it.

And your mom has to agree to pick it up should you call if you really need that dose of mama.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules out as all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Tanya, was this how you expected things to go?

Not at all.

How do you feel?

Quite for clubbed.

How do you feel, Kyria?

Well, I like being Captain America.

I'll take it.

Here's the real question.

Is your first instinct that you are going to be headed down to the convenience store to buy the cheapest prepaid phone available?

Perhaps one with just one giant green button that says daughter and a second giant green button that says fire department?

Or

do you think that you're going to be going full smartphone?

I mean, I like, I really think the honey trap idea actually might work.

But then the question is, can I afford that?

So this is going to take some number crunching.

Well, either way, thank you so much to both of you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In just a moment, Swift Justice.

But first, we want to thank Jack Matthews for naming this week's episode Don't Call the Next Witness.

If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your JudgeJohn Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho.

And check out the Maximum Fund subreddit to discuss this week's episode.

This week's episode recorded by Paul Ruest at Argo Studios in New York City and by Joel Mann at WERU Radio in Orlando, Maine.

Our producer here in Los Angeles, Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Jenna says, when referring to an address, my husband leaves off the words Road, Street, or Avenue, and so forth.

Thus, 18 Maine or 5284 East Oak.

I find it annoying and incomplete.

Who's right?

Well, I was going to say that Jenna is right, and her husband is wrong, because that's typical.

And it's especially unspecific.

And if you live in Brooklyn, as I do, you know that there is a big difference between, say, 2nd Street in Carroll Gardens and 2nd Place in Carroll Gardens.

They're on the other side of Smith Street, for one.

And also, 2nd place is for losers.

Do you know that, Jesse?

I had heard.

If you live on first place, you get a Cadillac Eldorado.

Second place, you get a set of steak knives.

Wow.

Or I live on third place, just get fired.

At least I'm being honest with you.

But weirdly, when I went to Google to prove my point and I put in 5284 East Oak, waiting to see what Google came up with for all the possibilities, I expected to see a lot of East Oak Roads and East Oak Lanes and Aves and plazas, but only a single address showed up in Google with that number, 5284 East Oak Ridge Road, which is a condominium in Glenville, Nebraska.

So now I know where you live, Jenna's husband, and I can bring this justice straight to you.

When giving directions, you're supposed to be helping someone, not showing off your cool shorthand for street names, how you know them so well you don't even need to finish saying them.

Do not withhold information that might be helpful to the person you care about or the computer that is guiding them.

Unless you're trying to trap all your friends and listeners in Glenville, Nebraska.

Give the full address.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJ HO or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Remember, no case is too big or too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

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