Coq Au Ban

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Cock on Ban.

Gideon brings the case against his wife, Cynthia.

He and their son have been raising chickens in the backyard.

Cynthia is upset that the chickens have destroyed her garden.

She says they need to be better contained.

Gideon wants them to remain free range.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

At the time, my experience with farm animal killing had been limited to chickens.

Together with two other families, I've killed hundreds of them.

Killing any animal is not something to be taken lightly, but I've found that I have no real conflict with chicken killing.

After 12 weeks of voracious consumption, meatbirds are ready to go, their purpose served.

At least that's the story I prefer to tell myself.

With pigs, that story starts to fall apart.

And quote, Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

Yes, I do.

Um, I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that ain't nobody can fence him in?

Yes.

Yes.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

Give me land, lots of land, and the starry skies above.

Don't fence me in.

I know that song.

Thanks, Jesse.

You're welcome.

Now it's stuck in my head.

My little holiday gift to you, friend.

Gideon and Cynthia, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you guess the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Cynthia, let's start with you.

I cannot.

I know, but you have to make a guess.

That's part of the fun

for me, probably exclusively for me.

Chicken Run.

Chicken Run.

Oh, I wish I had thought of that one.

That is a great movie by the Ardmore Studio, unfortunately featuring the voice of Mel Gibson.

But he's

a very genial voice actor.

We didn't know what we knew then.

Chicken Run.

Rocky.

That's right, yeah.

But you can't guess that one also, Gideon.

Oh, no, sir.

You have to guess another piece of chicken culture.

There's so many options.

You know what?

That's not what it seemed like to me this afternoon, so I'm looking forward to your guess.

It has definitely a Charlotte's Webb feel to it, but

I think

maybe

James Harriet, All Creatures Great and Small.

I'll go with that.

Whoa.

First of all, obviously, all guesses are wrong.

The reason why that guess is wrong, of course, is that All Creatures Great and Small by James Harriet is the memoir of a British country veterinarian, not chicken killer.

And the reason that cynthia's guess was wrong uh is it was wrong but in this case you were very very close i have to say gideon when you guessed sounded like charlotte's web it's not by eb white

uh but it is from maine it is from yard pig which is the blog of a neighbor of mine in maine that he was keeping over the summer about the problem he had by accidentally buying 14 pigs

michael sheehan is a year-round neighbor of ours up on the peninsula where we have a home in Maine.

He and his wife are amazing people.

They have two amazing daughters.

They are both bakers.

He is also a home builder.

They are incredibly self-reliant people.

Obviously, they're noted chicken killers.

And yet, some time ago,

at the beginning of last summer, he got tricked into buying 14 guinea hogs.

thinking that they would resurface his yard, not realizing that he was going to come to love these animals very deeply, and had already gone through one traumatic experience of having some Tamworth pigs and having to send them to slaughter and going through a deep depression.

So now the blog begins with him explaining, I have these 14 very, very intelligent and eccentric and idiosyncratic and lovable pigs, including Mona, the one that he loves the most.

And a full quarter of them are already marked to be slaughtered because someone else bought them for him to raise.

And he has to decide what he's going to do with them because 14 guinea hogs, American guinea hogs, are very, very disruptive to property after a while.

They get big and they eat a lot and they're expensive.

And there's a really interesting read, and I encourage you to read it.

And the very best part is the very first entry, which is from July of this past year, talking about Mona, the pig he loves the best.

And there are only three comments on the blog.

One is from his wife saying, I think you're thinking about pigs too much again.

The next one is from his daughter saying, I agree with mom.

And the third one is from his daughter, Chloe, saying,

these pigs aren't going to last.

Don't make it like last time.

Meaning, don't get yourself into an emotional tiz about these pigs.

And by the way, the decision ultimately of what to do with these pigs was made, and it's an amazing piece of writing.

and it just came out a couple of days ago as of this recording.

So go check it out, yardpig.com.

And now we go on to this fake court case, which is not about pigs, but about chickens.

Cynthia and Gideon, you live outside of Austin, Texas.

Do I understand that correctly?

Yes.

Yes.

All right.

So tell me a little bit about your life and your chickens and your age and what you do all day.

And paint a word picture for me about what's going on down there.

Who's first?

Cynthia, why don't you give us a shot?

Okay.

I am 45 years old.

I'm a wife, mother.

I'm a speech language pathologist, and I'm an aspiring guitarist and singer.

And I love our home and I love our dog.

And I think I sent you pictures of our house and it's my sanctuary.

It's my backyard is pretty much my favorite place in the world.

And maybe I'm a crazy plant lady or a hoarder,

but

the garden in our house is a huge part of my life.

And we've been in our house for eight years and we've slowly transformed the backyard,

replacing a lot of the grass with crushed granite and walkways and native plants and succulents.

And I collect pottery from Mexico and

terracotta pots and I love to take cuttings from succulents and anyway, that's pretty much me and a nutish show.

Now, hold on.

When you say you take cuttings from succulents, not just in the atria of local shopping malls, right?

No, from family and friends.

Good, because there's established law around mall atria foliage.

Well, Cynthia, that was a wonderful piece of testimony, the likes of which I've never heard.

And I appreciate and adore your utopia that you've created in your backyard outside Austin.

And the problem is, I guess, Gideon, is you you want to destroy it with chickens?

What's happening?

Yes, I'm the monster.

And

I, you know, tried to be a supportive father, actually.

We had had chickens before in San Antonio when our kids were younger.

And I think we didn't have as much time for,

you know, when you have young kids, you don't have as much time for creating a utopia in your backyard.

But we had chickens then, and we had four Rhode Island wrens, and my son

at the time, who was probably four or five, really enjoyed them.

So when we moved up to Austin and we'd been here for a while,

we finally got to the point where my son had been kind of asking me for chickens.

And I had told him, you know, if you write a business plan and can prove to me that, you know, you'll do some due diligence here and be responsible for them, you know, we can consider getting some more.

So we did, and I had forgotten how destructive for,

you know, two-pound birds can be to a backyard.

But

yeah, so

one of the conditions is for me was in order to get these chickens that I really didn't want them to be

kept in a small enclosure.

I wanted them part of what I really love about having chickens, especially in this utopia of a backyard, I include the chickens in that landscape.

To me, they bring a lot of joy and calm and peacefulness in watching them do their chicken business, not that business, doing chicken stuff, as I say, sorry, in the backyard.

You have strange proclivities.

Oh, it's all coming out.

And so Cynthia's definition of utopia is growing succulents and cultivating peace, and your definition of utopia is watching a chicken poop.

Yeah, no, I misspoke.

But just do their typical chicken type of behavior, scratching, pecking, running around, getting scared over absolutely nothing.

And I also enjoy watching my kids be out there with them.

In this day and age, I feel like they become more closed off to the world every day.

And watching them, until you've watched your 13-year-old, 14-year-old son run around and try to catch a chicken.

You really haven't lived as far as I can tell.

All right.

How many chickens, I have a lot of questions.

And one of the things I want to get to is the business plan that you made your son write to get these chickens into his life, because I don't know what kind of business you have with chickens, but let's just talk about how many you have.

You mentioned you have four.

We used to have four.

There's been a recent raccoon encounter that reduced our flock

by one quarter.

Yeah, why mince words?

Raccoons wouldn't.

Raccoon killed the heck out of your chicken.

Yes, sir.

It turns out that they only want to get

partially digested food out of the crop of the chicken, which is located sort of below the neck and above the chest.

And so they just rip that part off of the bird and leave the rest of the bird intact.

Just when I thought raccoons couldn't get more despicable.

Oh, they're the worst.

They have human-like hands and can open the latch of the coop that we purchased.

Yeah, I mean, despicable or not, you got to admit those little thumbs are cute.

Yeah, they're great for pulling out undigested food out of a dead chicken crop and shoving it into your raccoon maw.

Gross.

I used to be somewhat, you know, along the lines that just, you know, partially that, you know, these Mapaches are cute, but I was recently camping by myself for a weekend and had about seven of them descend on my campground at night and surround me at my camping area and chased me into my tent.

So ever since then, I've been a little wary of these things.

They wanted to get their little raccoon hands into your sweet crop and eat some of your undigested food.

You know, say what you will about raccoons.

It's pretty cute when they team up on you, A-team style.

I love it when a plan comes together.

Well, I have been reviewing the evidence, the photos of both

your yard and your chickens, and I could look at this all day long because it's a beautiful yard.

And these are some beautiful chickens.

But they are obviously working against each other since the chickens are destructive to your plants.

Is that correct, Cynthia?

Yes, but I enjoy the chickens.

I like having the chickens.

And the problem isn't the chickens themselves.

And we're raising them for eggs, not meat.

Neither of us or our family, we don't eat any meat.

But the problem is, is that they're not properly secured.

I think my husband and my son, which they're kind of one in the same,

we have a saying.

We have a saying, a Mexican-American saying

that goes, del tal palo tal astilla, and a palo is like a branch, and a still is a splinter.

It's kind of like from the branch comes a splinter.

And so the two of them are like a chip off the old block, I guess, would be the equivalent.

You're calling your son a splinter.

But they don't.

I think my husband finds it distasteful to clip them properly.

I have a close friend who's raised chickens in the country and says that you have to repeatedly clip them because they grow back and they will jump over.

You're talking about clipping their wings.

Their wings are supposed to be restricted to the side yard.

And I have no problem with them being free-ranged,

but no more than an hour a day, unless the kids are out there with them.

And also, when we go to work or when I come home from work, one or two have jumped over the side yard that has a

little gate and a fence.

I think I sent some pictures.

And the solution has been kind of jerry-rigging, like putting sawhorses on top of it.

Or my husband bought these strings of bamboo beads that he's dangling from the arbor.

And

so let me make sure I understand this.

And all these photos are on the show page at maximumfun.org and also on our Instagram account.

Our Instagram handle is judgejohnhodgmanAllOneWord.

And you guys will want to check this out because these are some great photos of a beautiful yard and some weird makeshift bamboo barriers and some really lovely chickens.

There are three of them.

What are the names of these chickens?

Bailey,

Mocha, and Lacey.

And

Latte or Fluffy Feet was the one that we lost recently.

This chicken had two names, Latte and Fluffy Feet.

That's the one that got decropped.

Yes.

Yes, sir.

And so if I understand this correctly, let me just clarify a couple points for my own deliberation.

They are supposed to be living in the side yard, which is separate from your backyard, Cynthia, correct?

Yes.

But their wings aren't clipped frequently enough to prevent them from flapping up and over and getting into all kinds of mischief in your backyard.

Is that right?

Yes.

And we've built a raised bed for them out there with

about $100 worth of plants that they destroyed in about two weeks.

And so if the kids were out there, they could just kind of steer them off the patio.

And I know they do benefit the garden.

They're absolutely beautiful and they eat bugs and they aerate everything, but they're just out there for too long.

So, those of you who are listening who may not have raised chickens in an urban or semi-urban environment or a rural environment, chickens scratch.

They scratch up the dirt to get up bugs and worms and other bits of food for them.

And that's how they aerate the soil, and that's good for the soil.

Same reason why you might want to have 14 American guinea hogs on a large field that you're trying to turn over the soil on, because they'll root up all that soil.

They'll churn it over, obviously on a much larger scale.

And by the way, if you guys are interested in about five to six American guinea hogs from Maine, we can send them down to you.

Cynthia?

Let's take a quick break and hear about one of our sister shows here at maximumfund.org.

And when we come back, we'll hear more about these Texas chickens.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court's back in session.

You're listening to Coque en bin.

Let's get back into the courtroom and hear more about Gideon, Cynthia, and their crazy, crazy chickens.

Well, look, these photos of these chickens are these are magnificent birds.

They are and were all hens, I presume.

Yes, sir.

We obviously don't know for sure, so it's a waiting game, but I think by now we were pretty sure that there's no, you know, none of them is going to become a rooster.

They started to produce eggs.

That's usually a tip-off as to their gender.

Yes, yes.

The darkest one is Bailey, and she's a Jersey giant.

Jersey giant.

Mocha is the kind of brown one that is

a well summer, and Lacey is a lace wine dot, and so that's why her name is Lacey and not named after other types of beverages.

And poor Fluffy Feet Latte was what?

Fluffy feet bantam, and that's why she bantams grow feathers all down on their ankles to cover their feet.

These are handsome birds, and I'll tell you, you know, we've spent some time in non-urban areas, and our neighbors have had chickens.

We've raised some chicks before.

They are beautifully dumb and hilarious animals to have around, and they are gorgeous to look at, and they are funny to watch when they get confused, which is a lot of the time.

They are also, you can pick them up and you can pat them.

They're nice lap animals.

And if you enjoy watching something poop, they do that too.

That one's for you, Gideon.

But they are destructive.

And there are some heartbreaking before and after pictures here of planters that once were thriving and now are just a blasted Mad Max wasteland.

He also came home one day with the chickens.

I had no idea.

I mean, I knew they talked about it, but

they sometimes like to talk about their big plans and sometimes they're outlandish.

So I didn't know that that was really going to happen.

Were you given an opportunity to review the business plans?

Well, I knew that he was working on them, but

Gideon is a lot like

Pa or Charles Ingalls from the Lara Ingalls Wilder books, like except that we live in the suburbs in modern times, but he can do almost anything, and he likes to build and he can repair and fix and plant and up and he has a and like Pa, like in those books, I never wo I wondered when I was a little girl why they got up and moved so much.

And I think that Gideon's a lot like Pa and maybe a little bit like Chip Gaines and the fixer-upper when you watch those episodes.

And he's always showing up at the house with some new random pet, except ours was on a smaller scale.

You know why Pa is always moving around in those books, Cynthia?

He's wanted by the federal government

for murder.

Uh-oh.

You never caught that subtext?

I don't think that's true.

It was just true.

You were too busy listening to those nice songs he plays on the fiddle.

Judge John Hodgman, I will say that it was a surprise to both of us that this business plan ever was completed.

What is the business plan for having four now three backyard chickens?

What's the biz?

How many eggs can you possibly be selling?

I don't know what it is, and I don't know quite why it's called eggs for the homeless.

Like, I don't think there's

we do some, we have done volunteer work for the homeless, but these were just for us to have our own eggs instead of having to purchase them them just to supplement what we eat at home.

You're just scared that your relationship with the grocery stores getting disrupted.

Gideon, did you submit your son's business plan for these chickens into evidence?

Yes, sir.

And he's, just to clarify, he was 13 when he wrote the plan.

And how old is he now?

14.

All right.

Well, Doogie Hauser was a teenager when he went to medical school.

Good point.

Business plan by Gustavo.

Last name redacted.

Very good.

I am Gustavo, and I go by Goose.

That's his nickname?

Yes, sir.

I love it.

Oh, man, that's a really cool nickname.

That is totally cool.

I'm aware.

He wanted to call it Goose Eggs for a while.

And I made him watch the first scene of Mad Max with Goose in it.

Now you're joking on me.

Never, sir.

The original Mad Max?

Yes, sir.

The opening scene where he's chasing the Knight Rider.

I know I haven't seen it for a long time, but Goose is his post-apocalyptic policeman partner, right?

Yes.

When he crashes in at the end, he says, they say, how are you?

And he says, nothing a day in the tropics can't fix.

I want to start a business where I sell chicken eggs.

This will also be posted on the show page.

I want to start this business because I want pet chickens and I want to earn money.

These chickens will be free-range.

It's right there in the business plan, Cynthia.

They'll be raised on non-GMO feed with no pesticides, and they will produce organic eggs.

Well, you can't say that because you would need to get a federal government or state approval for that.

So you're not allowed to use that term organic.

Yeah, organic style at best.

Yeah, these eggs are guilt-free.

I love animals.

I will be very grateful if you donate.

Thank you.

Wow, we.

I want to market to stores that would want to sell my product,

specifically H-E-B, a local grocery store in Texas, and Whole Foods, because they love to sell local products.

My second sales point would be friends and family, because I know they love local, fresh, and guilt-free eggs.

Goose is killing it.

Egg prices have gone up recently.

Oh my God, identifying trends.

So I think I can charge a competitive rate for my eggs.

Below are the prices for large eggs from producers who keep their chickens confined and kill them if they do not lay eggs.

And they got

an annual egg prices bar graph.

All right, financial plan, incentives for donating.

Okay, so you donate, and this is to raise money to purchase the chickens.

Was this the idea?

And the coop and the feed that is a monthly expense.

I told him I would front half of the money for the business and I would front the rest of it until he paid me back with

the...

35% interest.

Yeah, right.

The money that

he got from donations.

That would go to me first until he paid off and then the rest would be his.

Has he paid off his debt to the Lord humongous?

I think we sold a dozen and just one and it was to one of my good friends at work, a teacher friend.

I see.

But I also, the eggs that the family uses, which keeps me from having to buy them at the store, then that gets deducted from the cost that he owes me because that's money I would spend on.

eggs for the family.

So when you sent your son Gustavo out to ask for donations using this business plan, did you disclose to the donors that all of the money being donated was going directly to lining your pockets?

Well, he hasn't actually asked anybody for donations yet.

That business plan has not been mailed out to anybody.

He tried to do a Kickstarter, but the clientele, the people that he was asking for money, I don't think know how to use

Kickstarter or what's the, I didn't mean to buzz market the other.

Right.

So he didn't, that that went nowhere.

He was supposed to mail out physically copies of this business plan, but

I refused to get out the address book for him.

And so it's dead in the water.

He's going to have to get his own leads.

He can't have the Glen Gary leads.

Always be selling.

You know, here's the thing.

Between Utopian Garden, between

sons with awesome nicknames.

I'm sure your daughter is amazing as well.

She is.

This incredible business plan, your beautiful chickens, and some of these sweet movie references that Gideon is dropping.

I'm going to say this is the number one family on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

Oh, I was just going to say it's obvious that you're trying to run some kind of scam on us.

Well, that could be too, maybe.

You trust human beings more than I do.

I'm just going to say, Jesse, number one family on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

And I'm writing a check right now for some eggs.

$1,000.

So you guys are obviously killing it, but here's the thing.

How can there be a dispute here?

Obviously, the chickens, for all the good work that Goose did in putting this business plan together and all the medium good work that you, Gideon, put into creating a kind of bead curtain barrier, the chickens are getting into a place where they shouldn't be, and they're causing destruction that is causing distress to your wife, Gideon.

How can you argue that these chickens should be given free rein in the backyard?

I think that, yeah, I haven't had a chance to make my case really, but I think there's a compromise here in that

we plant certain types of plants in the backyard that the chickens are less likely to get into, or maybe I build some makeshift additional barricades.

No, I'm just kidding.

But, you know, I think there's a way for the chickens to have free range in the backyard, and maybe we plant

their they tend to be after,

I think, after my wife's porcha lacas, which are very important to them, and they will go through great lengths and great fences to get to.

I've tried clipping their wings, even though I don't like doing it.

And I, and I've done it to, I think, pretty good standards and, and, and often.

Not good enough.

No, not good enough.

I don't think that any more clipping is going to.

I don't think that they're, you, the way they're getting into the yard is by their wings.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

How are they getting into the yard?

Tunneling?

Well,

how are they getting over that fence?

You've seen chicken runs, sir, right?

No.

So I think they're squeezing through or just hopping up.

I mean, these chickens, I'm not sure if you've seen these Jersey giants are a good 18 inches tall.

Why, they're good hopping birds.

Some chickens are for eggs, some are for meat, and some are for pure hopping.

And so maybe just squeezing through, I'm not quite sure.

I would like to get some video footage of how this is important.

We'll have Goose Commission a study, but why is it important to you?

I mean, mean i've seen the the photos of the side yard it's pretty spacious why is it important to you that they have free run of the big backyard which is such a special place to your wife why not accede to her wishes and just have them have supervised time back there i would love supervised time back there but um i it's proven to be difficult to force that time outside texas also is for a good nine months of the year um too hot for me and also too filled with mosquitoes.

And so it's for my kids and I to be out there for a good bulk of the year is difficult.

Is the side yard too constraining for your chickens?

I believe so.

I love to see them in the grass.

They love it.

They love to dig around the plants.

I don't, you know, they can build up a lot of waste, just these three chickens, very quickly.

And so the less room they have to do to

wander freely, the more all of that mess can be confined.

And so I would like to spread that out as much as possible.

But I do understand, I mean, I don't like them doing that on the patio, and I don't like to see them knock over pots and plants either.

So I'm just thinking, you know, with some family teamwork, we could rearrange what types of plants we plant and where to give them more access, but also

protect some of these plants that we do not want them to ruin.

They have also jumped the front fence and a neighbor rang the doorbell to bring one of them home and then the next door neighbor fence that have two dogs that maybe might not be as friendly as our own to chickens.

So by not consistently clipping the wings, I think he's putting the chicken's life in danger.

Well that that would solve your chicken problem though, wouldn't it, if the dogs took care of those chickens.

and i i don't want to see that happen you want to see those chickens dead no

no i love the chickens and and i love that my son and daughter are very excited they treat them like pets they actually they pick them up and hug them and they want to make them chicken sweaters and decorate with a Christmas tree and lights out in their area and it's it's very cute to watch and I love how compassionate they are with animals and as far as planting different kinds of plants, they definitely prefer some over the others.

Like they love purslane and porchilaca and succulents, but they'll eat anything.

Just ask your neighbor with the pigs.

Yes.

It's not like there's any kind of plant that is fully chicken-proof.

First of all, what are porchilacas?

They call them in South Texas cheesemas, which is like a gossip because they open

and close that like by as the sun goes up and the sun goes down like a gossiping mouth and they're just um a beautiful succulent that blooms in

orange coral yellow red really bright colors and they're incredible even in triple digit temperatures they require very little water and um and they open and close like an oxalis plant according to the the time of day yes that's why they're called gossip mouths yes holy moly Chismos.

Botany is amazing.

Chismosas.

Right.

And they're beautiful.

And you can, I have many of them because I just buy a few or collect a few and then they can, I just grow them from cuttings.

That's one of my hobbies.

Cynthia, it's fair to say that despite all of these challenges, if these chickens were to wear custom-made chicken sweaters, they would deserve to live in the house and eat caviar or whatever they wanted, right?

Well, I have to give Gideon credit because the raccoon was the whole losing fuzzy feet and we were on a trip and our house setter would send us pictures day by day of pieces of the chicken coop coming apart because the raccoon was trying to take off piece by piece of these predator-proof coops that like the one that we bought.

But he built a small it looks like a little shelf.

He just completed it about two days ago.

And so now at night, they sleep in the garage in this sort of

long shelf in case closure.

And the garage, we have a dog door, but we close it off so that they're safe from the raccoons.

And also I just want to...

Currently now.

Yes.

The chickens have stopped laying either because it's cold, and I'll say that it's cold for Texas standards, isn't that cold.

And or they were just terrified of the raccoon.

So the whole purpose of this, or one of the main purposes, was for the eggs, and they stopped laying eggs anyway.

But they also are.

There goes your omelette dividend, Gideon.

So what's the thing in your garage now?

Where is that connected to the side yard?

There's a, we have dog doors, but we have like a double layer of dog doors.

So the dog

doesn't just go out straight into the yard.

He has to go, she has to go through the dog door into the garage and then through another dog door into the side yard and then there's a fence that separates the side yard from the backyard um so that door we close off because one one and then there's a ball pit and then there's the slime dumper yeah and there's the corkscrew slide

Anyway, long story, I built the

roosting.

I built a roosting box for them, and it's basically just a mini coop.

They don't do anything.

Once they go to roost, when the sun goes down, they don't lay eggs.

They don't eat or drink or anything like that.

And so I just built a small enclosure, just like, I mean, like you would a bed.

And so the chickens come in at night.

We go get them and put them in up to roost inside the coop.

Well, here's my question.

You have to move them into this

chicken safe house, this raccoon safe house.

They will learn.

I'm sure they would.

They'll learn.

They are more routine than anybody, and they'll let you know once it starts getting a limited amount of light in the day, they go to roost.

So when they start learning where they want to go to roost, just like in the wild, you know, pheasants will go into a tree and they'll go into their coop on themselves.

But yeah, we would have to close the door behind them after they learned.

We got it.

Isn't there a way to predator-proof the side yard?

I mean, I'm going to tell you right now, a bead curtain isn't going to do it.

Like, could you do something more?

Could you use some chicken wire to put over that side yard and really

you know make it safe no i believe that they um they they reckon that chicken wire is not really um raccoon or predator proof uh you have to use much higher uh strength and smaller mesh um

like a raccoon wire for example

and so and that it would take it's a big enough area that you couldn't it wouldn't be feasible to close it off unless you were it would be like building an addition to your house yeah i gotcha all right well maybe that's what you need to do

build a chicken barn south on me

so if i'm going to rule in your favor just to clarify cynthia you you want the chickens to be in the main backyard only under a human supervision

or they can be free range but an hour at the most and not with us having to prompt them to go for them to be responsible to time the hour because i don't think the chickens I think

our children

to time and to put them back without prompting before they've eaten everything down to the roots you know just leaving a few little stalks and a whole pot upended and just for Gideon to kind of get over it and consistently clip their wings more than he thinks he should to keep them not only from just free-ranging but from jumping into the front yard in the street or into the neighbor's yard.

Okay.

And you, obviously, Gideon, you want status quo.

Chickens can jump and leap and frolic, squeeze through and hang out in that backyard.

And you're going to offer some

distraction plants that you hope will keep them from going for the main gossip mouths and otherwise

just

let them roam free, correct?

Yes, sir.

Yes, sir.

I mean, we also have a very large front front yard where the chickens don't have access to at all.

And so

I live in Brooklyn, New York.

I'm tired of hearing about all your side yards and your garages and your front yards and your backyards.

With your access to barbecue restaurants.

Right.

What is your front yard solution now?

Well, that we have, we can plant as many plants as we want, and I'm happy to help with that.

make that area also a chicken-free utopia for Cynthia.

And then the backyard can can be more just sort of neat.

Gideon, we already know that the chickens can get into that front yard.

They've already done it.

The chickens have already busted through your security system over there.

And also, I like to spend a lot of time with the plants.

And in the front yard, there's no privacy.

In the backyard, we have a fence and we have a seating area and we have a raised bed where we grow vegetables in the summer.

And we have a little conversation area and a chimanea.

And it's not the same to just move.

Gideon, there's a chimanea back there.

A chimanea, Gideon, a chiminea.

Really, I would just be happy being absolved.

My number one thing would be absolved from the any discussion or forcing me into clipping any more wings.

They grow once a year.

I've done the wing clipping, I believe, satisfactorily.

So that proof is in the flapping, sir.

A ruling from the judge, I believe, would

would go a long way in in ensuring my son followed through on his chores to be with them more in the backyard and escorting them around.

But independently without us, if we have to prompt them or tell them to go out there, 14 years old.

It's more work for us or for me.

Yeah, having chickens is more work for everybody.

So that I understand, Gideon, because I don't know, and I'm tired of pretending that I do know.

Before I go into my chambers, what is the process of clipping the wings mean?

What do you do?

And why do you not like to do it?

And why doesn't goose do it?

It's a multiple-person job.

When some of those people are kids, it's a three-person job.

But what happens is the chickens have primary feathers.

Primary feathers are main flying feathers on birds.

They're the ones that actually

look like wing feathers that are the longest.

So when you pull those wings out, they stick out to the side the longest.

And so just like you would get a haircut, you don't feel that

you don't feel the hairs being cut, but you can feel sort of that your head feels weird after you.

Stop getting your hairs.

And so when

you just cut the last maybe inch or two off of those primary feathers, it's enough for them not to get

into flight, but it doesn't prevent them from jumping or just using their base muscles.

And I would never cut their muscles because that would obviously be very painful and

dangerous.

No.

But so it will keep them from flying, but it doesn't necessarily keep them from getting over the fence that prevents them from getting into the backyard.

And my quote was from Nacho Libre.

I just had to put some, say some movie quotes and say, oh, this is the greatest number one family.

I'll buy some eggs.

All right.

I've got everything I need in order to make my decision.

I'm going to crawl through this dog door into a protected garage where I will sit for a moment in darkness, free from raccoon predation, come up with my decision.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Cynthia, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

I don't know.

I think they're pretty good.

I don't think I'm asking for too much, I hope.

How do you feel about your Jiminea?

I like it.

We've only used it a few times, but now that it's winter-ish in Texas, we might use it more.

Gideon, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

Not very good.

I mean, despite being absolutely beautiful, my wife is also very intelligent and amazingly level-headed and practical.

So

in anything when it comes to really, you know, making the right decision, I usually defer to her.

Yeah, and I hear you're quite the old block.

Yes, sir.

How do you feel about your chiminea?

I like the chiminea.

You know, I bought it because I had decided to take my son camping and

not made proper reservations for the camping spot one night.

And so by the time we drove out there, they sent us home.

And so my compromise to him was on the way back would buy the chimanea so he could make his s'mores in the backyard.

And we've used it for s'mores a couple times.

So we'll look now that it's wintertime and I can't wait to get out there maybe and make some s'mores with the chickens during the day.

I am thankful that I maybe I'm level-headed and practical,

but so is my husband.

And he brings adventure and fun.

And,

you know, over the course of our marriage, I really appreciate that he is spontaneous and is the kind of person who would just bring home chickens.

You know what?

I can't even, I can't deal with this conflict anymore.

The two of you have been at each other's throats for an hour now.

I cannot handle it.

I got to get out of here.

We'll be back in just a second with Judge John Hodgman's ruling.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, Me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom with his verdict.

You may be seated.

So I'm going to keep my verdict brief because

you, Gideon, and Cynthia, wasted so much time up top being adorable.

And

the decision is fairly obvious here.

First of all, let me commend you for having chickens and introducing

your kids to the natural world in both its profound and sublime and hilarious beauty, aka Fluffy Feet, the chicken, and its harsher aspects as well, aka a raccoon killing Fluffy Feet to get to its sweet crop and leaving its mauled body

there out amongst the porcholatas or whatever they're called.

I think it's really a lot of fun.

And I don't want to hear any more about eggs.

Eggs are a side product, they are the excuse to make your son write a business plan to provide proof of some level of responsibility for having pet chickens.

And they are a little, as I say, omelette dividend at the end of the day.

But these, you know, chickens only lay eggs for a certain period of time in their life.

Sometimes, when they get raccoon spooked or too cold, they won't lay them at all.

That's not the point.

You like to have these chickens around because they're weird and dumb and crazy, and you hold them, and they're nice.

That said, you know what also is beautiful?

Succulence,

gardens,

all the work that Cynthia is putting into this oasis that she has created for herself in the backyard.

That's worth protecting.

And you have, as has been established, many, many different kinds of yards.

Front yards, side yards, backyards, under yards, top yards, garage yards.

I get it.

You guys are yard rich.

There is no reason why this oasis that Cynthia has created for herself and tends so carefully should be destroyed by these lovable but dumb and destructive pet chickens other than someone is too lazy to put them back where they belong.

which is the side yard and or the garage when the time comes for them to get back into their own world.

That side yard is plenty of room for those chickens to spend most of their time.

And I'm telling you, between clipping their wings and using your Paw Ingalls skills to secure that area, there's no reason they should be able to escape from there.

They are dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb animals.

They are not clever Rhode Island Reds with the voice of Mel Gibson figuring stuff out.

So, Pa Ingalls, you got to get back in there in that side yard and you got to secure that stuff with something other than bead curtains, not only for your backyard's protection, but for your chickens' protection.

It would be great if your children took the full care of the chickens and did so without prompting.

And frankly, I think you're going to have a lot more success with your kids than I would have with my kids doing this, because I don't think either my son or daughter could ever put a bar graph into a business plan in order to get chickens.

They would be like, too much work, forget it.

They're on their way, but they are still kids.

They're still going to need prompting.

They're going to still need pushing along.

And ultimately, it's going to, the responsibility for these pets, as with every pet ever owned by every family in the world, is going to fall to the parents.

And specifically in this case, sorry, Gideon, it's going to fall to you because you show up at a house with chickens one day unannounced.

It's on you to make sure that those chickens don't destroy your wife's garden.

So I think my order is clear: enjoy your chickens in your backyard when you're there.

Otherwise, get them into their many, many other living situations that are perfectly wonderful for them.

And until then, don't get any more birds.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Gideon, are you prepared to genuinely paw Engels this thing?

You know, I swore to abide by the ruling of the court, so I will definitely try my best.

I think you can do this, Gideon.

I apologize for all the Mel Gibson references.

That really was not planned.

Cynthia, how do you feel about the decision?

Then, afterwards, if you want, you can tell us how you feel about Mel Gibson.

I feel very relieved.

I really was sad to see, just bit by bit, this whole just my garden and fall apart and see plants toppled over and pots broken.

And I kind of felt that Gideon and the kids were a little bit indifferent and just telling me that I needed to chill and get over it.

And it's just pots and, you know, plant something else.

So I feel a little, I feel, I wouldn't say vindicated because I really love my husband and my kids and I'm not that upset, but I feel satisfied and relieved and grateful.

Well, Cynthia Gideon, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In just a minute, we'll dispense some swift justice, but we want to thank Jesse Madsen for naming this week's episode Coke Aubain.

If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, that's where we ask for your submissions.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your JudgeJohn Hodgman tweets.

Hashtag JJ Ho.

And check out the Maximum Fund subreddit to discuss this episode.

You'll find that at maximumfund.reddit.com.

This week's episode was recorded by Marty Lester at Tequila Mockingbird Studios in Austin, Texas.

Our brilliant producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Thanks, Jennifer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Here's one from Amber.

I refuse to accept my husband's friend request on Instagram because he never posts anything.

Am I right to deny him?

Yeah, of course you are, Amber.

You should never feel compelled to accept a friend request of any kind, and especially from a lurker, even if that lurker is your husband.

Tell him to get with the game and post some pictures, and then maybe you'll be his friend.

I like that that icing.

She's doing to her own husband.

Yeah.

That's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJ Ho or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Remember, no case is too small.

All right, we'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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