Grouse Negligence

This week's Judge John Hodgman episode is about hunting animals with guns.

So if you're not comfortable with that subject matter, well, you can wait till next week's show.

Let's get started.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Grouse Negligence.

Casey brings the case against her husband, Josh.

Josh is an avid bird hunter and would like to go as much as he can during the season.

Casey wants him to be more available during this time to help her with her business.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

My pop was in the podcast business and he loved it very much.

He actually went ahead and passed away while podcasting.

We used to have a few parties out at the house and invite the podcasters.

There was one by the name of Elliot Kalen, and he thought he could take my father.

My father went ahead and said, daggummit, I don't think you can do that.

So everybody pushed the tables and chairs in the house away, and they went at it.

My father, who was 54 at the time, beat him.

And he sat down beside me and said, wasn't bad for an old man, was it?

And then he got up and left the room and went out the front door.

About 15 minutes later, my wife came to me and said, your father's out on the front porch and he thinks he's having a heart attack.

And sure enough, he was, and he passed away.

He passed away doing what he loved.

I certainly don't want to pass away, but I'm doing what I love, podcasting.

And so what if I'm doing it in my 40s?

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's dead set against grouse hunting, preferring pheasant hunting?

Yes.

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

You may be seated.

Casey and Josh, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the courtroom.

I'm going to give you a hint.

It wasn't about podcasting.

I took the real word, the real occupation they were talking about, because it might give away too much, and I replaced it with podcasting.

Casey, does that give you enough of a hint to make the winning guess?

Oh, man.

No.

No, okay.

It was a long one.

It was a long one.

Yeah, that's true.

I'm going to give you another hint.

It has to do with where you live, which is Amarillo, Texas, if I am not mistaken.

It is.

I'm not sure.

I would possibly, in reference to Amarillo,

a song.

A song.

Possibly?

Amarillo by Warning.

I don't know any other songs about our area.

Can you show me the way to Amarillo by Neil Sadaka, perhaps?

Perhaps.

Yeah, I'll go.

Let's go with that.

All right.

We'll put that in the guessbook.

It's a little more obscure.

I think that's the name of that song.

It is definitely a Neil Sadaka song.

All right.

Josh, now it is your turn to guess.

You've got some hints.

You've got some information.

You know that it is about Amarillo where you live.

That's in Texas.

Two,

it's probably not the song, Can You Show Me the Way to Amarillo?

by Neil Sadaka.

Now that you can rule one thing in.

Oh, and it's also not about podcasting.

So now that you can rule one thing in and two things out, I expect you to give the correct guess.

What is it, Josh?

I

am going to guess something about a Roy Rogers biography.

Roy Rogers?

You think it's a Roy Rogers quote?

Yes.

The idea that it is a quote by an Amaryllan is a good idea.

You still want to guess Roy Rogers?

I just don't know that much Amaryllo history.

Oh, my goodness.

Amaryllo Slim.

Amarillo Slim, I'll put you down for both Roy Rogers and Amarillo, because if I have three guesses, then I can grammatically say all guesses are wrong.

You're both incorrect.

All three of your guesses that I gave you were incorrect.

No, you do not recognize the words of Terry Funk.

Terry Funk, what?

Come on, you guys.

Terry Funk.

The hardcore icon, the funker, Terry Funk.

Born Terence Funk on June 30th, 1944 in Indiana, but he moved with his dad, Dory Funk, and his brother Dory Funk Jr.

to Amarillo, Texas, and began there a wrestling promotion and training program that produced several memorable world-class wrestlers, including Terry Funk and his brother Dory Funk Jr., the Funk Brothers.

Terry Funk, who is now 72, just returned to the ring.

For the big-time wrestling promotion in Raleigh, North Carolina, September 22 of this year, 2017.

He teamed at the Rock and Roll Express,

which is a six-man tag team match, and his team defeated Doug Gilbert, Jerry Lawler, and Lawler's son, Brian Christopher, by disqualification.

Terry Funk, king of the hardcore wrestlers, an Amarillo legend.

Anyway, I guess we're going to have to hear this case.

Oh, it's a case is right in your name, Casey.

That's what I understand to be the case.

You guys live in Amarillo, Texas.

Casey, you have an antique store there.

I do.

And Josh likes to go out hunting for bird and small game.

Is that right, Josh?

Really,

everything, actually.

Everything.

Anything that moves, you want to kill it.

Not exactly, but yeah, if it's edible, I'll go for it.

Okay, good.

But you don't hunt the most dangerous game, right?

Not as of yet.

Oh, no, don't ever do it.

Yeah, I'm against it.

As every seventh grader knows, the most dangerous game is man.

Don't.

Don't even hint at cannibalism on this podcast.

We may have to put a disclaimer on this one already because we're going to get a lot of letters from quail lovers.

Oh, no.

But where are you guys from?

Now, Josh, are you from Texas?

Not originally, but I grew up here for most of my life.

Okay, where are you originally from?

Kennabunk Park?

Evanston, Illinois, and then we moved from there to Essex, Massachusetts, and then moved here.

Okay, so you did spend some time in New England.

I thought I detected it in your accent.

Yeah.

Good.

And how old were you when you moved to Texas?

I think nine.

Okay.

And did you grow up in Amarillo or no?

Because you don't know anything about the Funk Brothers.

You know, I did live in Amarillo, but I'm not much into wrestling.

Okay.

So is Amarillo, would you call that your hometown since you were about nine?

Yes.

All right.

And may I presume that you

became interested in the sport of hunting in Texas rather than Essex, Massachusetts?

Yes.

Not that there isn't hunting in New England for sure, but it is rather less popular, I would imagine, than in Texas.

Yeah, I would assume so.

All right.

So how long have you been hunting?

When did you first start going out hunting?

You know, I think I

I really got into it when I was probably about 18 or 19.

I worked worked for a construction outfit, and the two guys who owned it were big deer hunters.

And

then I started going hunting with one of them.

So you would build a little building for a while, and then you might see a deer, shoot it, and then continue to build the building?

That's about right.

Yeah, that's it.

I bet you had some pretty good sight lines from on top of those girders.

Yep, big deer blind.

Uh-huh.

All right, so what do you like to go out hunting for?

Well, you know,

the way the seasons work here,

first dove and

early teal season, come up, teal's a small duck.

And

so I do that until deer season starts.

So you start out the season by killing the bird of peace, not the wild.

And then the mini bird of peace.

Like, I want to kill this beautiful metaphor for peace first.

But is there a smaller, weaker one that I can get to?

We're going to have some jokes here.

I respect your hobby.

Don't you worry.

It's not my thing.

I don't do it, but I have no qualm.

Well, I have some qualm insofar as I would never do it, but you understand what I'm saying.

I do.

When I make these jokes, I'm not trying to make a big point.

Right.

Just saying it is weird that you're trying to kill that bird of peace.

What comes after Dove?

Then,

well, then deer season starts.

And

after deer season is duck and goose and crane and then pheasant

crane season?

Speaking of birds of peace.

Sandhill cranes, not whooping cranes.

What's your favorite part of the crane?

The skinny neck?

You like to gnaw on that?

Are you trying to kiss the goal to kill a thousand cranes in one season so you can string them across your wall?

Not even I get that reference, Jesse.

Sorry.

What is it?

string a thousand paper cranes?

What is I?

Okay, that's starting to sound more like a thing.

I don't mean to grow.

It's a Japanese tradition that if you make a thousand paper cranes in origami,

you are granted a special wish.

Oh.

I've tried it.

Oh, you have, Casey.

You understood that reference.

Did you get Josh to kill a thousand cranes for you to screen?

No, the paper ones.

The paper ones, not the real ones.

I think I saw that on an episode of Brian Fuller's Hannibal before it was.

Oh my god.

No.

No, I made a lot of paper ones for my store once.

And did you make a thousand of them?

I made a lot.

It was a really impressive window display one time.

If you had made a thousand, would you have wished?

I wished that Josh would hunt a little less frequently?

For sure.

Definitely.

That was a magical segue into this case.

That was pretty good.

Everyone's wish is going to come true on on this one.

That's what I wished for.

One magical segue.

So, Casey, you take issue with Josh's hunting, not as hunting per se, but because of the amount of time it takes away from your life together?

Correct.

So, most people think, you know, it's like a weekend hobby that we could schedule on and off.

But really, you know, hunting season, it's like each duck is a couple weeks long, and so it's every morning, every night.

So,

yeah, I mean, a couple years back, you know, I would wake up and he would already be gone because he has to, you know, the animals, it's like the hunt starts at five in the morning.

And then when I would come home from work, by the time I would go to sleep, and then he would come in after I was already asleep.

So I was kind of what some people here in Texas call a hunting widow.

And so, yeah, basically, you don't have a husband for four months.

Yeah, it sounds like of all the, I mean, we're going from dove to teal to deer

to duck to crane.

Is that right?

Is that the horoscope of the hunting season in Texas, or is there even more to it that I've missed?

I have no idea.

I'm expected to know, but I have no idea.

I mean, what happens after crane?

Well, crane starts in October and ends in January.

There's really not much after January until spring.

There's turkey season.

Okay.

So and when does that start?

February 19th?

I think that's in March.

Okay.

So you have a husband in February, basically.

Do I understand that?

Pretty much.

Yeah.

So once my busy season ends

and I free up a lot of time, yeah, that's whenever he's done hunting.

But you mentioned that this was a couple of years ago that you would routinely wake up and he'd be gone and not be back until you were asleep.

Has the hunting pace fallen off to some degree in the past crystal?

Mostly because I've been having children.

So, I mean, I can throw that card out and sometimes get a response.

Josh, Josh, did you know about these children that Casey's been having?

I still haven't seen them.

Okay.

How old are your kids?

Our daughter turned three this past September, and then our son is like 16 months.

Oh, wow.

A little tiny child.

Yeah, yeah.

Two crazy toddlers.

Close together.

It's pretty busy.

Yeah.

Yes, it does.

Exhausting.

You be quiet, Josh.

I'm talking to Casey.

It doesn't sound like you're around that much at all.

Yeah, I'll take that chuckle as an affirmative.

We'll get back into you for a second, but now I want to talk to Casey a little bit.

So you have two little kids and you have a store.

I do.

I actually, I own a store, and then I also work with my dad and my husband on the side and like an interior design construction field.

But my store is actually an antique mall.

So

yeah, the holidays, you know, it's a retail store and gift shop.

So the holidays are our busiest time.

And I participate in some of those, you know, holiday shows where you go and set up.

all of your product to sell for a weekend or so.

So yeah, I'm really busy in the holidays.

And it would be nice to have an extra hand.

I would imagine you would be really busy all the live-long day.

Yeah, I mean, I'm on Route 66, so the summer is really, really busy.

But, you know, that's just the day-to-day store operations.

I'm not having to take my items and lug them all over town.

So I can usually get by on my own there.

It's time for the court to take a recess and hear a quick word from our sponsor.

When we come back, we'll hear more about Casey's busy season and why she needs Josh to hunt less and help her more.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Jesse and John sent you.

We now return.

You're listening to Grouse Negligence.

Casey wants Josh to limit his hunting so that he can help her out with work more.

Let's get back into the courtroom and hear why Casey needs his help.

So, when you say you own an antique mall, do you mean you own the building and dealers rent out space from you, or that

you have a space in an antique mall?

Well, i actually own the over i started with my own store and then when i expanded to this historical building it's about 20 000 square feet i of course couldn't furnish it by myself so i have a small area that has my own things and then i have 120 plus other vendors that rent out spooth booth space from me this is your second job

yeah i uh yeah

on top of helping to run the construction business with josh and your dad, is that right?

Yeah.

And also being a parent of two small children.

Yeah, we're busy, but.

I feel like it's a full-time job for me just to listen to my mom describe her spot in an antiques mall in San Francisco.

I know how you feel.

Yeah.

Let's get some buzz market.

Like, I like antique malls a lot, so let's get some buzz marketing in.

First of all, Jesse, your mom has a stall.

Is it in Stuff in San Francisco?

Yeah, that's absolutely correct.

It's called Emeritus, and it's on Valencia Street, right where Valencia Street hits the 101 freeway.

And now, Casey, tell me about your antique mall.

Is it called the Hunter's Widow Antique Mall?

That would have been a good second name.

It's actually, it's called the Nat,

which is short for gnatatorium because the building that it's in

originally in 1920 was an indoor swimming pool.

And then three years after, they drained the swimming pool, put a dance floor down,

and it became a music venue for 50 years with people like Bob Wills, Louis Armstrong.

Oh, my God.

Little Richard got arrested there for taking his shirt off.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

So, okay, let me just understand this.

You've got a 20,000 square foot antique mall that you own.

that is in a drained swimming pool, formerly called an auditorium, that then was also a place where little richard took his shirt off.

This is incredible.

And let's look at some evidence right now that you sent in.

You have some pictures here from your stall at the at the Nat?

Yeah, so I sent over a couple photos just to show, you know, I'm not one of the vendors that does just like the small dishes.

or that kind of stuff.

I mean, I actually move a lot of really large antiques.

I travel down to Roundtop by Austin, Texas.

It's one of the largest flea markets in the United States.

I go down there twice a year.

And yeah, I mean, I bring back some really large antique pieces, like checkout counters and sofas.

And so, yeah, I mean, it's some larger products that I need assistance with.

Now, you've got two really nice upholstered blue easy chairs in here that I can see.

What I do not see here is any photos of any incredible checkout counters, which is what I really want to see right now.

So,

you already have one to merit here in the port because I want to see some antique-y checkout counters that you hauled out of the largest flea market in Texas that somehow I didn't go to even when I was in Austin.

By the way, people of Austin and Texas who came to my show at the Paramount, thank you once more.

You guys were amazing.

You should say hi to my mom when you're at that flea market because my mom totally goes to that.

She does.

Yeah.

Well, I'm looking at photos here, and they're all obviously both at the Judge John Hodgman show page at maximumfund.org and also on our Instagram account, which is JudgeJohnHodgman on Instagram.

And this looks like, you know what, if I were walking through a 20,000 square foot drained swimming pool full of antiques, this is one of the stalls that I would definitely stop at.

You have some good-looking stuff in here, and it's well-arranged, and it's tasteful.

You also have a lot of books.

We do, yeah.

So, but those are not antique-y books, those are new books.

I can't see them because they're too small.

My books are, the ones I sell are antique, but or I mean, new, but a lot of the other vendors have antique books.

What are the new books you're selling in there?

I sell a lot of cookbooks,

and then I sell a lot of children's books from a really cool company called Compendium.

So I usually do larger antique furniture, and then I mix in with small market stuff to fill up the decor.

How many copies of Vacation Land by John Hodgman do you currently have in stock at this moment?

Would you say?

25?

50?

Well, I can't find someone to wholesale them from, but we do have one copy at home.

I do.

Oh, all right.

I'll let it slide.

Whatever I rule today, I'm going to send you some copies to sell.

There we go.

On consignment, I want my money.

All right.

It's 35%.

So, okay, well, we'll negotiate.

Let's see how it goes.

So, you seem to want to restrict this case to the holiday time.

Right.

Here we are at the end of November.

You need him around the shop to haul antique checkout counters here and there and to and fro.

How much is he home now, and how much do you want him to be home?

Well,

I mean, this year, I will say, is a little, he's going to try and make his case that he hasn't gone that much, but that's mostly because it's been unseasonably warm,

so the birds haven't been flying.

And deer season also hasn't opened.

So,

you know, with deer season, he'll be gone a lot.

So I would say if we could just schedule it more,

maybe reserve it for the weekends.

I'm fine being at home with the kids on the weekends.

But yeah, getting them up and dressed and both to school and then back down fed for dinner and that that gets a little difficult.

So.

Okay.

So Josh, you heard Casey anticipating your argument a little bit there.

You want to say that you haven't been hunting enough this season because it's too warm for birds to fly or some garbage?

Is that correct?

No, no.

My argument is

much different than from what you've been told.

All right, let me hear your argument, Josh.

So,

you know,

this season is her busy season.

And when she asked me not to go, I don't go, and I help her.

But it's just my

feeling about it is I need...

her to not make plans for me.

And this is under the guise of her

work schedule, she's also got other things.

Like this year,

the opening day archery season on deer, I didn't go.

Of course, I didn't bring it up or complain, but I didn't go.

Until now.

Because until now, I was saving it for now.

Because she had planned for us to host

Stock the Bar party for a couple here, and I didn't know about it.

She told me about it.

late, you know, and so I just said, well, I guess I'm not going to that.

And she just, I'm not complaining because she makes great plans.

I mean, we always do fun stuff.

She always makes all of our plans.

I mean,

I'm along for the ride and I do not mind that at all.

So

let me understand that your premise here is that you are an understanding and loving husband who is happy to stay home to take care of the kids and be there for her.

except when she makes plans for you to socialize with other human beings.

And you're like, I could be shooting an

arrow into a deer's neck right now.

Are you kidding me?

I think that, I mean, that's a great way.

Now, quick question for you, because you said some words I didn't understand.

You say on the first day of archery for deer, I got all that.

She had made plans for both of you to host a stocked bar party for a couple.

Yes.

What does that mean?

Does that mean you guys...

What does that mean?

Stocked bar?

I don't know if you guys have it up there, but there is.

No, I don't.

That's why I don't get it.

There's like 30 parties for people who are getting married.

And one of them is they get everybody together.

I mean, mean, it's kind of a cool deal.

You get all your friends together and everybody brings you a bottle of your favorite alcohol or whatever and stock the bar for the new couple.

What an incredible tradition.

It's pretty cool.

We had a pretty good one when we got married.

So people threw you a stocked bar party.

And they actually attended?

The people who loved you actually attended the party rather than go kill a thing?

They did.

They did that's that's very that's unreasonable to expect of friends but i guess i guess they really cared about you casey who is it who's the couple that you threw the stocked bar party for um

should i say their name yeah you should definitely say their names

go for it yeah it's a local couple john and alejandra were close i mean i went to the same schools as him growing up

and were close with their parents.

And so,

and all of my other really close friends were hosting and they just had asked us to host as well.

So

I, once again, you know, these hunting seasons are so confusing that I had no idea that it was archery deer season day.

It's called shoot a deer with an arrow day.

So John and Alejandro will hear this and they'll know.

that Casey, you love them and Josh doesn't care whether they live or die.

But my question is, did Josh go to this stock bar party or not?

Well, we actually had to cancel last minute because my dad, who also is another guy in my life who, you know, outdoorsman makes me attend everything, decided he wanted to take us and our children six hours away for the night to go fishing.

So we had to go

six hours into Oklahoma to fish.

So I missed the whole party anyways.

Josh, I want to remind you: you're under fake oath here.

When you heard about John and Alejandra's stocked bar party, did you make a side call to your dad and say, Dad,

you've got to organize a fishing trip on the quick to get me out of this junk party?

I did.

Because it may be, I don't mind missing shoot a deer in the neck with an arrow day, but I got to get some blood on my hands.

I can't just have fun with these people and give them alcohol.

No, that was an entirely happy coincidence.

Hello?

Hello, Dad.

Can you find a reason for me to go to Oklahoma?

All right.

So, Josh, the request is that you restrict your hunting through the holiday season to weekends.

Why is that onerous?

Well,

the problem is

that, I mean, that is a big part of it.

The weather is a huge part of it.

And you can't just, you know, say, yeah, I'm going to go Saturday and Sunday.

For instance, the crane that come in, you know, you can't just say, I'm going to go next Saturday.

If there's a big cold front that comes in, all the water that they land on around here is really shallow.

And so if it freezes up and over, they're gone.

And they may be gone for the year, and so you don't get another chance.

So you have to kind of be ready to go.

And the other part is that there is virtually no public hunting land around here.

I have a hunting lease that I pay for that's about three hours away from here.

And

it's really hard to get down there and hunt for a day and get and get back, you know.

And,

you know, I need to be there to help whenever I can.

And the kids are a big part of that.

I can't leave her alone with the monsters for that long.

But there's people that have places close by that if they invite you, I mean, you got to be ready to go.

And

so when she makes plans

for us, not only her work plans, but other personal plans, it just kind of means, well, I don't, you know, if that's a good day for it or if somebody calls, I can't go.

You have to be at the ready to go hunting at a moment's notice in case someone's getting ready to post up on some crane at a nearby place.

Is it like being a heart surgeon where you have to have a special pager?

That's exactly right.

It really is like that.

I know it sounds absurd, but it really is.

Because if you're not given an opportunity to abandon your family at a moment's notice, you might end up spending less time with them because you'd have to drive three hours to your hunting lease.

Well, listen, I spend a lot of time with my family.

And like I said, I don't make any plans.

I really don't have any other hobbies that I do outside of this

for the entire rest of the year.

And I'm always the, because both of us are self-employed, I'm always there to drop what I'm doing, to go pick the kids up, to stay with them, to help her with anything.

And when she asks me to do any of these things, I do them.

But I would like it if, you know, the plans were consulted on instead of made.

And then

I just have to go along with it.

If I could have input on those plans and at least try to

Try to plan it ahead of time.

Can I interject?

Well, wait a second.

Can I say

that?

I got your point, Casey.

Well, can I say one thing that just happened

this weekend?

So Casey was in Charleston this weekend with her dad.

She went for four days.

And

so I had the kids,

didn't do any hunting, no big deal.

I'm happy to do that.

But then she sends me a message.

I appreciate your sacrifice.

She, well,

that's not what I'm saying.

She sends me a message that she wants to do something with me, and it's a super cool plan.

Like I said, she always makes awesome plans.

It's just, I got us tickets to go to New Orleans on the second, which puts us in

the pheasant hunt that I go on with her dad every year is going to be during that.

No, it's not until the fourth.

I remembered the second.

Yeah, I know.

We don't get back till that night, so we'll miss it.

So you'll miss that pheasant hunt.

Yeah, and we only go on that one

every year.

I just go on that one hunt with her dad.

I'm going down to New Orleans instead to go hunt Nutria?

Isn't that your idea of fun?

If we were doing that, we're actually going to see a concert.

But like I said, it's really cool, and it's a great gesture.

And it's really,

I've never been to New Orleans.

I'm really excited about it.

But I would have rather it been not during my time of year, which my favorite time of year where I can actually just get out.

I mean, hunting for me is like, it's like a nature walk with a prospect of food at the end.

You know, that's, it's not all just about going out and shooting something.

It's about being part of nature.

And I don't get an opportunity to do it a lot, especially around here.

Well, okay.

But I might argue you actually get the opportunity to do it a lot.

I mean, it seems like you're tuned into every hunting season there is.

How often do you go out a week currently?

I

see.

I've been dove hunting twice, duck hunting,

was it twice?

Well, not this year.

And normally.

Last year was kind of the same.

And it's changed.

I realize it changed with the kids, but it's been a lot less.

Right.

We'll stand by for a second, Josh.

Casey, how often does Josh go out hunting a week?

Is it

during a good hunting season?

Yes.

It would normally be,

I would say

three days for sure.

And that's just the only thing.

Also, you know, is I also, it's a moment's notice.

And so,

you know, if I did have something planned, it's like, oh, sorry.

I mean, he comes out and he is loading the truck and I realize, oh, okay, you're going today.

And how does that make you feel?

Abandoned?

No, I'm kidding.

I usually do not mind it if I do not have work plans.

Josh is a

homebody,

and I like to socialize a lot still.

And I have became, over the years,

content going to these events by myself.

So yeah, as long as it doesn't conflict with a plan that I already have, because I'm a little OCD about plans.

I mean, he's right when it comes to that.

Well, it sounds like you're OCD about making plans, but not terrifically OCD about coordinating your plans with his killing seasons.

Because you can't.

Well, you know what pheasant hunting is.

But you never know when that pager is going to go off.

Come get a crane.

You know, I thought I was marrying a contractor, but it is kind of like a doctor.

That's

a good thing.

Yeah, but...

Doctors do something else.

They save lives.

Josh, do you clean this stuff yourself?

Yes.

Yeah, I do.

Do you hang your game for a while to make it less gamey and do all that stuff?

I do.

If it ever gets cold enough, it really, it's rare that it stays cold enough.

But if it isn't, then we just put it in the cooler with some ice and let it sit for a week or two.

Yeah.

And how much of your family's food do you provide on balance?

Like 90% of the food comes from the sweat of your brow and the smoke of your gun?

Well, you know, in the summertime, we've got a garden that we get a lot from.

You're shooting up cabbages out there?

Yeah, I do.

That's wrong.

That's a winter crop.

I don't even know why I said that.

I apologize.

Last year, I got an elk, and

so I really didn't hunt very much last year because we had plenty of meat.

So, yeah, I was a little bit more.

I had a four-month-old baby.

We had a ton of red meat last year.

And that reduced the amount you went hunting?

Yeah, definitely.

Interesting.

Yeah, there's no need to if your freezer's full.

Josh, I have one last question for you.

What does crane taste like?

It's really good, dark meat.

Around here, they call it the ribeye in the sky, and it's kind of like a big fat steak.

All right, I think I'm ready to make my verdict.

I'm going to go into my hunting blind, which is shaped like a five-story building in parkslow brooklyn and i'm gonna cogitate on my verdict i'll be back in a moment with my decision please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom josh have you seen that one you know about those espn 30 for 30 documentaries about sports

no Okay, well, they got these documentaries about sports, and there's this one.

You know, Bo Jackson, the football and baseball star of the late 1980s and early 1990s.

I know absolutely nothing about sports.

But you know that Bo knows various things.

Bo knows, yeah.

I remember that.

He makes in this documentary, he's just hanging out and seeming like the greatest guy ever.

And he's making his own arrows.

Do you ever make your own arrows?

No, I don't.

I do shoot a longbow, which is this kind of primitive longbow, but I don't make my own arrows.

Okay.

I'm picturing you now basically as

Robin Hood from the Disney cartoon.

That's pretty good.

All right.

Maid Marion.

Yes.

How do you feel about your chances in the case?

I'm feeling pretty good.

I'm a little worried about the consulting part

because I do like to plan

in advance and not

have to really question other

other parties involved.

But yeah, I mean, I think there might be a way to meet in the middle, maybe.

Josh, how does this meet ship?

Like, let's say from like, I'm just going to pick two random places, from like Texas to Los Angeles.

I don't know.

I could work that out with you.

I have no idea.

But Casey will have to let me go if I'm going to ship you anything.

Well, we'll see where my loyalties lie.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper and on Let's Learn Everything we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

Josh, I appreciate

to some degree your hobby, even though I do not partake in it.

I appreciate that it is about being attuned to nature, though it has

a different kind of relationship with nature than someone who simply goes hiking.

I appreciate having shot at clay pigeons, the thrill of target shooting.

It is not in me to shoot at a living thing and kill it.

But that said, I am a carnivore, so I admit my hypocrisy, and someone's got to do it.

If I'm going to have the ribeye of the sky, someone's got to take that thing down.

The difficulty here is that your sport,

your hobby, your passion,

is entwined with a myth of providing for one's family.

And you are doing that to some degree.

But you're going out and bringing home food

for your family to gnaw on in their cave

is not technically necessary in today's economy.

and now coming into conflict with the fact that your family actually needs you around, too.

I appreciate that you're trying to keep this in balance.

And I certainly appreciate that you love this pastime and you have a particular bond with your father-in-law, such that you can get him to suggest fishing trips when you want to get out of a stock bar party.

I know that that's what happened.

I know it, Josh.

Don't even deny it again.

It didn't, I promise.

You know, and that there are rituals in your life that you wish preserved,

such as the beginning of shoot a pheasant with a gun season or shoot a deer with an arrow season,

that you feel are not being observed by Casey, your wife, because she doesn't know what those seasons are.

But I will say that, you know,

while because of the weather and because of your duties as a dad,

your hunting has already declined to a certain degree, you are going to have to acknowledge, no matter matter what I rule,

that the time in your life that you can be on call to go hunting at any time,

dawn or dusk, is going to have to end.

It's just not going to be compatible with an ongoing

presence in your family.

And this

really circuitous logic that you've made that you need to be able to leave to hunt at any moment so that you don't have to drive out to your hunting lease and then take more time away from your family.

That's very self-serving.

It's hard for people who have hobbies, pastimes, passions, professional, creative, or otherwise, to maintain those,

especially if they are as time-consuming as yours is, when you meld your life not only with another human being

who has his or her own passions, creative, professional, and otherwise, but also two humans that you have to raise and feed.

And what they need more than crane meat is their dad.

So, regardless of what I rule, I want you to take that to mind.

That's where I'm coming from in this.

But where I think the crux really lies here is

communication and personality.

Casey, you've admitted that you like to socialize.

You've also admitted that Josh doesn't like to socialize.

It is not a surprise to me

that

you are making origami paper cranes

to put in your stall in your 20,000 square foot antiques mall where you are dealing with humans all the time, going out and doing your own kind of hunting for cool old stuff at flea markets and so forth, and you are displaying these cranes to bring humans into your life and sell them old junk.

Whereas Josh's relationship with cranes is to go out before dark by himself and see if he can can kill one and eat it.

Introversion, extraversion.

Seems to me that

you are one of those terrific couples

that maybe I know one or two of, where the guy in the thing likes to just podcast and talk to strangers all day long on Skype,

whereas almost no one on earth has ever met my wife.

And so, what I would say is that when you have this kind of particular friction, introversion, extroversion pairing,

communication is really, really, really, really extra important as it always is in a marriage.

And I'm not just talking about talking about your feelings and that dumb junk.

I'm talking about like, what's happening this week?

What's happening next week?

What's happening this month?

When do I need you?

When do I need you, the introvert, to sacrifice your natural tendency to not not speak to any other humans on Earth except your nuclear family?

When do I need you to come out and help me give this bottle of Plymouth gin to these weirdo friends you don't know?

When do I need you to come with me to New Orleans to go see what band were you going to go see?

Dead and Company.

What's that?

The Grateful Dead and Company.

Oh, never mind.

Goodbye forever.

I rule against both of you.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Please welcome Judge John Darnell.

Nope, people like what they like.

That's fine.

You guys already understand this.

There has to be balance.

There are times when it's going to be your thing, Casey, and it's going to be more social activity.

And then there are times when it's going to be Josh's thing when he leaves you alone, abandoned with your family to take care of things yourself.

Josh, you understand that there are going to be times when it's right to go out into the world and shoot a crane in the neck, which is hard to do.

I appreciate it.

It's a test of skill.

It's an all-odded neck there to hit.

Or whether it's going to be time to actually help out and go to this party, or more importantly, go and move some old-timey checkout counters around and help your bride with her store, with her passion, right?

Your hobby, your passion, doesn't require any help.

It's just you and the person who's beeping you to say, come hunt on my land right now.

But she needs help.

She needs a lot of help, and you need to provide more of it.

That said, with that caveat, you know, I actually feel that the onus in this case is on you, Casey.

You scheduled your Grateful Dead weekend in New Orleans over pheasant hunt.

You have admitted that you make plans without consulting with Josh.

I think Josh is ready.

to be told, no, you are staying home to help with this for these reasons.

I think he is responsive to that.

This is a situation where you both have to be

a lot more communicative with each other.

And I think that, you know,

Casey, particularly with a busy season coming up, you need to draw some guidelines for Josh, some bare-bones minimum guidelines of even if that beeper rings, he can't go.

And Josh, you need to abide by that.

But also, Casey, You can't be making social plans without consulting your husband, even if he wasn't constantly itching to get away from you.

So with all of those warnings to you, Josh, I do find that the onus in this case is on Casey to make her needs clearer, to be more thoughtful in her planning, to include Josh in the plans,

you know, in the calendar, and to learn about the hunting season so that if she is going to ask him to make a sacrifice, such as you don't get to shoot a pheasant on the first day of pheasant shoot day,

that at least you're cognizant, Casey, that that's the sacrifice you're asking him to make.

And then it's up to you, Josh, to actually make it.

So, in this case, I guess I find in Josh's favor, this is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

This seems like a big victory for you, Josh.

How do you feel?

I

feel like everything he said was right.

I mean, we're,

but that's, I mean, that's kind of the status quo as it is.

I didn't articulate very well, but

I mean, we're already there as far as,

you know, if Casey needs something, I do it.

And

it's not that I question it at all.

You know,

she's my number one priority.

So,

you know, it's no big deal for me to not go.

Josh, are you prepared to do the necessary talking to your partner to make this plan work?

You can't just hide in a mud hole with a gun.

No, no, I can't.

No, I can't.

Yeah, definitely.

Definitely trying to have more foresight is a good thing in planning.

Casey, how do you feel?

I feel like

I should have seen this coming.

And this is kind of what everyone in my entire life has always told me: is that I have to communicate more.

But I just did not see that happening.

So, Casey, Josh, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Well, another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

Before we get to Swift Justice, we want to thank Ryan Stratton for naming this week's episode Grouse Negligence.

If you'd like to name a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we put out our calls for submissions there.

Follow us on Twitter, at Jesse Thorne, and at Hodgman.

And you can hashtag your Judge John Hodgman-related tweets, hashtag JJ H.

O.

There's always a good chat about what happened on this week's Judge John Hodgman on the Maximum Fund subreddit.

You can find it at maximumfund.reddit.com.

This week's episode was recorded by Glenn Storley at Covenant Studios in Amarillo, Texas.

Our producer is the great Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Michael has a cocktail question for you, Judge.

He wants to know, can a Moscow mule made with gin be called a London mule?

Oh, very interesting.

Yeah.

Moscow Mule,

look, very, very popular cocktail these days.

It's actually a mixed drink because it has ginger beer in it, as well as vodka and lime juice and served traditionally in a copper mug.

You see them all over the place.

I even saw one in a Brooklyn-style mixology bar, Speakeasy, in Orlando, Florida.

It's everywhere now.

Originally devised by Smyrna-Off owner John Martin and his pal Jack Morton of L.A.'s Cock and Bull Tavern, according to our friend Dr.

Cocktail Ted Hay himself.

Now, if you were to change it to gin, what would it be?

Well, I will say this.

There is already a gin variant of the Moscow Mule called the Gin Gin Mule, which was invented by another hero of cocktail culture, Audrey Saunders, who the founder and owner of Pegu Club here in New York City where I live, she invented this one.

And it is

gin instead of vodka, fresh lime juice,

ginger beer, but you also add a little simple syrup and some muddled mint leaves.

Now, that is normally served not in a copper mug, but in a cocktail glass.

And if you are 21 and over, you should give that a try.

It's delicious.

It's called the gin gin mule.

But to get back to the question, if you were to take a regular Moscow mule and just swap out gin for vodka, I don't think there's any other drink.

So you can call that a London mule, or you could even call it a Hodgman mule if you wanted.

That would be hard to pronounce.

Hodgman Mule.

I like that you're laying claim to this drink.

Sure.

Yeah, why should I let Michael take all the credit?

I say this drink is called a King Thorn.

King Thorn?

I love that.

That's a great name for a drink.

Do you know what?

You're absolutely right.

Michael, you have invented the King Thorn.

This is the sound of a gabble.

That's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ H O or email them to us at hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

If you're not sure about it, just send it to us.

We'll decide.

Don't worry.

We're not going to judge you.

We're super chill about that kind of stuff.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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