Marco? Justice!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Marco, Justice, Nate brings the case against his wife, Pam.

They've just bought their first house, and Pam wants to have a swimming pool installed.

Nate says pools are too expensive and time-consuming to maintain.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Somebody said to me, but the Judge John Hodgman podcast was always so anti-materialistic, but that's a huge myth.

I mean, Jesse and I literally used to sit down and say, now let's podcast ourselves up a swimming pool.

Isn't that right, Bailiff Jesse Thorne?

Sure.

Nate and Pam, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he recently purchased an infinity pool in which to ride his poke boat and a third thing that you always see in those little advertisements on the side of the New Yorker?

I do.

I do.

Very well.

Judge Hodgman.

You know what I want, Jesse?

What's that?

I want a party barge.

You ever see those on the lake?

A party barge?

I just assumed you were going to say a tilly hat.

Oh, I owned it.

It was another thing.

I owned a tilly hat once.

I owned a tilly hat.

It just never worked out.

It was too versatile.

Right.

There are too many options for wearing it.

It had a strap, a non-strap.

You could snap it up on the side.

You could look like an Australian outbacker, or you could take them both down and you look like Catherine Hepburn tending her garden.

Judge Hodgman, I am literally a professional menswear writer, and there is a part of me that I would estimate at 20%

that wants to wear exclusively adventure clothing.

Like vests with hidden pockets.

Oh, I have a recommendation for you then.

It's in Harvard Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts, which is part of New England, a region of the United States.

It's a place called Banana Republic in the Past.

Uh-huh.

Yeah, man.

Oh, I used to go there in like 1988 and just look at the Jeep that was half in the store, half out the store with plate glass down the middle.

Oh, wow.

Have you seen my pile of 1980s Banana Republic catalogs that's immediately outside the studio in which we're sitting right now?

Producer Jennifer Marmer, cancel the podcast.

Send our litigans home.

I'm Nate and Pam, goodbye.

Did I win?

Nate and Pam, you may be seated.

The reason that Jesse and I are not paying attention to you, because this is one of the rare times when we're actually recording the podcast in person together here at the Maximum Fun headquarters in the American Cement Building in Los Angeles, California.

And it is just too much fun to talk to my friend than to listen to your dumb dispute.

But I guess we have to do it.

Unless one of you is able to identify the piece of popular culture I referenced as as I entered the courtroom, in which case I will award you a summary judgment.

Nate, Pam,

I'm going to flip a coin.

Bling,

got it.

Pam, go.

What's your guess, Pam?

What am I guessing?

What was the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Pam, have you ever listened to the podcast before?

I have.

It's been a while.

The tilly hat?

Well, no, thank you.

Whoopsie-daisy.

The materialism quote.

Oh.

Yeah, it was the quote.

I'll do it again for you.

And I'm going to give you a hint, Pam, even though you were mean to me saying you haven't listened to the podcast for a long time.

The hint, Pam, is this.

When I say the Judge John Hodgman podcast,

that is not from the original quote.

Okay?

Okay.

So in the original quote, I'm referencing a famous.

I'm going to tell you what it is.

I'm practically handing this to you, Pam.

Imagine in the place of Judge John Hodgman podcast, the name of a famous band.

Okay?

Now I just have to find, right?

Somebody said to me, but the Judge John Hodgman podcast was always so anti-materialistic.

That's a huge myth.

Jesse and I literally used to sit down and say, now let's write a swimming pool.

What's your guess?

Who said that, Pam?

I don't.

The quote?

Yeah.

Oh.

Um.

Okay, we'll put that in the guest book, and now we'll move on to what?

Did you have a guess?

John McCain.

John McCain.

All right, that's a good guess.

Good guess.

Famous.

One of our great songwriters.

Entered into the guest book.

Now,

Nate, what is your guess?

Keith Richards.

Keith Richards.

Guess what, Nate?

You're very close.

I don't know that anyone

would have suggested that the Rolling Stones were defined by their anti-materialism.

Right?

I mean, that was a pretty hedonistic band, or is.

I suppose they're still a band, right, Jesse Thorne?

I feel like the most distinctive thing about them is their critique of the capital system.

Jesse Thorne, do you know who said it?

Ian Makaya Fukasi, right?

That's right, but he would only pay $5 for a swimming pool.

No, the answer is Paul McCartney of the Beatles.

Paul McCartney said,

someone once told me the Beatles are so anti-materialistic, which is a huge myth, John, meaning John Lennon and I, used to sit down and say, now let's write a swimming pool.

And that's why Paul McCartney...

is known as the owner of the most swimming pools in England.

He's really not sweating it in the swimming pool department.

His estate is called the land of 10,000 pools.

I like that Paul McCartney really identified that people.

The thing that people don't understand about Paul McCartney is that he wants people to like him.

It's true.

Well, Pam and Nate,

neither of you got that quite right.

And frankly, your guests really confused me, Pam.

So, let's hear your case.

Pam.

And Nate.

You two are a married couple?

Yep.

How long have you been married?

Six years.

Congratulations.

And you live together in Phoenix, Arizona, it says here.

That's correct.

And my understanding from the affidavit is that Pam would like a swimming pool, and Nate, you hate pleasure.

That's exactly right.

Why must I ask you, Pam, to explain why a swimming pool in Phoenix, Arizona might be a fun thing to have?

Is there any argument other than

it cools you off that I should know about?

Are you training to to be an Olympic swimmer or anything?

No, I am not training.

I think it's fairly obvious why I would like a swimming pool.

And what do you do for a living?

I'm a nurse.

Well, that's a good work that you do in the world.

It would seem to me that at the end of a long

year nursing.

Yeah, that's right.

Pam is absolutely entitled to her

self-congratulation.

Being a nurse is hard work.

Yeah.

My mom was a nurse, Jesse.

What kind of nursing do you do?

Cardiac nursing.

Cardiac nursing.

What does cardiac nursing mean?

I actually work in two different roles.

One as an inpatient bedside nurse.

So I take care of patients after they've suffered heart attacks, received stunts, heart surgery.

You're the person in their lives.

I'm in their lives.

Yeah.

That's right.

And what's the other role?

The other role is I work in an ambulatory setting where I put patients on.

Who knows what that means?

Well, outpatient.

Okay.

And put patients on the treadmill and watch their heart rhythms while they walk on the treadmill and make sure that they don't have heart attacks.

When you say in an ambulatory setting, you literally mean while people are ambuling.

Exactly, ambulating.

You got it.

But ambulatory does have a specific meaning in the world of medicine.

Is that what it means, or does it mean

outpatient or, you know, not in the hospital?

What does it mean?

Outpatient, like they're coming in for something and then they're leaving for something versus staying as an inpatient in the hospital.

Right, which would be called bed and breakfast, essentially.

Right.

Well, I restate my original opinion that you're doing valuable work in the world.

Thank you.

And it seems to me like after a long day of helping people who are relying upon you, you deserve to have a dip in a swimming pool.

Nate, what do you do?

I'm a judicial law clerk.

Okay.

So I work for a judge doing a lot of research and writing.

Okay, that's good work.

We believe in the law here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

And I'm going to go ahead and just say, as a matter of broad decree, all work is good work for the most part.

But

why do you think that your wife does not deserve to have a dip in a cool pool by the time she gets home?

Well, there's a few reasons.

The first is that pools are very expensive.

Stop right there.

Stop right there, and I'm just going to help you.

I'm going to give you a little law lesson from your judge.

I'm going to give you a little help on winning a case.

When I say, why does your wife not deserve to enjoy a dip in the pool?

You do not say, there are a few reasons.

First, you say, well, no, judge, excuse me, she absolutely does deserve a swimming pool.

The problem is we can't get one for these reasons, and there are a few of them.

Yes, that was much better stated.

Would you like to restate that?

Yeah.

All right.

I'll allow it.

Well, so

as someone who works in the field of law.

That's not what I told you to say.

Okay.

My wife definitely deserves to relax in a pool.

The problem is there's a few financial obstacles.

Okay.

For example, I believe the article I sent you said that the average cost of a pool installation is $30,000.

It's a lot of money.

I just got out of law school a year ago, so I've only been working a year.

Pam was smart and did not go to graduate school, so she has six years of experience in her field.

The second reason is that pools are very time consuming to maintain and they're expensive to maintain.

They're also very dangerous.

I sent you another article that pointed out that pools are a hundred times more likely to kill a child than a gun.

Do you have a child?

We do not have a child.

Do you have a gun?

But

we don't have a gun either.

All right.

So I don't see why that article has to do with you at all.

Judge Hodgman, they intend to allow neighborhood children and neighborhood gun wielders to use the pool area.

That sounds like a fun party.

If someone walked up to my front door with a gun, I would let them use the pool.

Fair.

I'll allow it.

Let's talk about the financial impact first.

Pam, $30,000,

that is substantially more than $0.

Correct.

Can you guys afford this pool?

Be honest.

This is not even talking about maintenance.

Right.

This is about digging down.

and building the pool.

Have we established that it's going to be an underground pool or a below-ground pool?

We can establish that now.

Yeah, I established it when I allowed this case.

Yeah, exactly.

Thank you.

No offense to those of you with above-ground pools.

They're not real pools.

It's not the same.

It's not the same.

So, you would like to have a below-ground pool.

And if we stipulate to Nate's contention that it will cost $30,000,

do you have that lying around in a hidden way in your nurse's shoes?

No, it's not hidden yet.

Now I'll go back to the original question.

Can you afford this pool?

Be honest.

I think so.

How would you afford it?

With money.

You are.

That's really breaking it down right now.

Yeah.

Breaking down economics for me.

So unless we have a financial

burden we're not expecting, we won't have the cash until March or April, probably.

Okay, so even you, Nate, are suggesting that if you save up

by March or April, you will actually have 30K set aside in the pool jar to install a pool.

That's possible.

That's within reach, barring a catastrophe?

Yeah, I can concede that.

All right.

And

here's a question I might have asked.

Do you own your home or do you rent this place that you're about to dig a huge hole in?

We We own it.

We actually close on September 21st, so we've been homeowners for about three weeks.

Oh, congratulations.

Well, thank you.

And may I presume that you have a mortgage?

We do.

All right.

Taking into account your home payments, you still think you could set aside 30K.

That's great, you guys.

Thank you.

You're grown-ups.

That's right.

Yeah.

How old are you again?

I'm sorry.

We're both 28.

My goodness.

When I was 28.

No kids.

That's right.

No kids.

And if we have kids and get this pool, it might happen again.

No kids.

That was dark.

It was a dark joke.

But that's okay, because you know what?

Edward Gorey made lots of books about untimely death of children, and kids love him.

I sure did.

So, Nate, even you concede that this is affordable, barring a catastrophe.

So why are you coming to me whining about money?

Well, I mean, it's affordable.

It would come with substantial trade-offs.

Tell me about them.

For example, Pam probably will need a new car within the next couple years.

She disagrees, but

she drives a 1992 station wagon.

What kind of making model?

Let's hear it.

Mercedes-Benz, 300 TE.

Oh, it's one of those cheap, reliable numbers.

No, but they go forever.

Ah.

Did you send a picture?

Did you have a picture?

Oh, I should have.

You could send a picture.

Can you send me a picture right now?

That'd be pretty hard.

How many miles are on that?

224,000.

How many owners?

Was it your mom and dad's?

Oh, no.

My dad did help me find it because he works on old Mercedes-Bens and he's very good at it.

He actually had the same

make and model, but a different year and drove it to 400,000 miles.

And your dad is living?

He is living.

Yes.

Is he local to you?

He is local to me.

That's why I think I can drive it for a while.

Yeah.

And also, do you think your dad can help me find a 1992 Mercedes-Benz station wagon?

Because I'm kind of in the market.

Yeah, I want like a early 80s SL convertible.

Oh, yeah.

I think that we're going to do some really good business together.

I think you're going to be,

if you get a finder's fee in your dad's biz, you're going to be getting a pool before you know it.

I should also mention your dad would have to move to Los Angeles.

To work on it for you personally?

Exactly.

Okay.

She's going to need a new car thing is out the window.

What next, Nate?

Well, we have a brand new house.

We have a number of projects we want to do on that.

We need our bathrooms redone.

We need the awful taupe color on the wall to be changed.

We'd have to trade off some luxuries, such as tickets to certain comedians coming to the valley on November 7th.

How dare you?

How dare you?

Let the record show that this taping happened before my appearance in Phoenix.

So this is a viable threat, even though by the time you, the listener, hear this, I will have already passed through Phoenix and Nate and Pam will have already made a decision about whether or not they were going to attend my appearance at the Mesa Performing Arts Center on November...

What is it again, Nate?

7th.

November 7th with the Skyped-in floating head of George R.R.

Martin.

But right now, I do not know.

And I say to you, sir, how dare you hold that above my floating, Skyped-in head?

You know, the tickets come with a book.

It's a pretty good deal.

Yeah, I think I saw it at a local bookstore, Changing Hands, maybe.

That's right.

Changing Hands Bookstore sponsored my great event, which has not yet happened by this taping, but I know it went well.

Should we plug it some more

for our time machine listeners?

That's right.

Nate, let's throw that emotional blackmail out of court already because that just

you know that that prejudices me against you.

Let's talk more about your terrible bathrooms and your terrible wall colors.

Pam doesn't think they're as bad, but there's also so $30,000 you could do a lot with $30,000.

At least most people can.

So we could get closer to paying off our,

what's it called, private mortgage insurance insurance that comes out of our mortgage every month.

What's your private, I don't, Jesse, I don't know what that is.

I probably have it, right?

Is that the thing where it protects you from being underwater on your mortgage if something happens?

No, better.

It protects the lender if we default.

Right.

So once you have 20% principal, it falls off your payment.

So I'm glad somebody's standing up for these home lenders.

So once you've paid 20% of the principal down on your mortgage, that additional cost comes off your mortgage and your monthly payment goes down.

Correct.

Okay, I got it.

And when do you anticipate that happening?

Well, if we pay according to the schedule, 2022, I think.

2022, that's a thousand years from now.

Yeah, I think I'll be dead by then.

How you

get a pool from the pool.

Pam, why don't you want to fix up your janky bathrooms?

I guess I wouldn't use the term janky to describe the bathrooms.

I think they are in decent shape.

Actually

recently remodeled.

But they're the way when the house was remodeled, they

one of the bathrooms is a half bath and it's connected to the master and it's not it's like connected by a hallway, so it's not, you know, actually a master, which is unfortunate.

The other official master has a very small shower, and I think that is making it janky for Nate.

Got it.

Yeah, I think it's

how small a shower does a shower have to be in order for it to be small.

It's like a coffin.

No,

it's not a coffin.

It's larger than a coffin.

It is velvet lined.

And it's buried in graveyard earth.

Pam, are you just underplaying the amount of renovations so that you can get your precious, precious pool?

I don't think so.

All right.

I think that if we don't build the pool within the first year of having the home, that it won't happen.

But I think.

Because of a witch's curse?

Yeah, and just getting comfortable without one.

I say, you're afraid that years of not having a pool will mean you'll never get a pool.

Yeah.

And it seems to me like the odds of getting comfortable without a pool while living in Phoenix are relatively low.

Okay, fair.

It's time for a quick recess.

So we have a really awesome new show joining the Max Fund Network.

Let's hear about it.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court is back in session.

You're listening to Marco Justice.

Pam wants to get a pool.

Her husband, Nate, is opposed.

Let's get back into the courtroom to hear more about the case.

Nate and Pam, you just bought this house.

Did you look at any homes with pools when you were considering your home purchase?

We looked at several.

Do they have other homes without pools in Phoenix, Arizona?

They do.

That's what we bought.

You bought the one?

Well, we were looking and

we were narrowing it down to a certain neighborhood and

we we actually were under contract with a different home, and

yada, yada, yada.

So

anyway, I decided I'll look at homes.

No, you know what?

I'm not going to allow that yada yada yada.

You're under contract with a different home.

Did that home have a pool?

It did.

Why did that fall apart?

Did Nate sabotage the deal?

No.

I would be upset if he did that.

The sewer needed to be replaced beneath the home.

Oh, okay.

And the seller wasn't interested in doing that for us.

Okay.

So at that point I agreed to look at homes that didn't have pools

with the plan to build one as long as the backyard would accommodate a pool.

This is a contract, a verbal contract that you made with Nate?

This is a verbal contract.

Nate, do you deny the existence of this verbal contract?

Yeah, there was no consideration, Your Honor.

So it's not binding.

That is some real legal stuff you bring to me.

Exactly.

And there have been times before when I have made reference to a contract in cases like this, and I've heard from legal experts that I misunderstand the concept of consideration, and they inform me, and I refuse to remember what they tell me out of spite.

So would you remind me and our listeners what you mean by that when you say there is no consideration in the contract?

Yeah, so for a contract to be binding, both parties have to give up something.

And what each party is giving up is called called consideration.

Right.

So Pam was willing to look at a pool as house.

That is a sacrifice on her part in exchange for the promise that a pool would be built.

How is that not consideration?

What am I missing?

Because all she's getting is the promise.

She's not giving

any sort of act by me or any sort of valuable trade.

Oh, in consideration of one pool, I will buy this janky house.

Would that be a contract?

In consideration of one pool in one year, I will buy this janky house that you want me to buy, even though you already hate the bathrooms and there's a coffin for a shower?

Did you promise a pool or not?

No.

Yeah, I also say, hmm.

I also say, hmm, because of peer pressure.

Thank you.

Even if not a binding contract in the legal sense in the state of Arizona, Pam seems to indicate that the agreement was

that she would consider a house without a pool so long as the plan was a pool would be put in.

Pam, is that an accurate reflection of your understanding?

Well, that was definitely the discussion.

I don't recall,

you know,

acknowledging this is a verbal contract.

No, no, no, I understand.

You had a discussion with Nate.

With Nate and our.

With Nate or with the pool fairy that that lives under your pillow.

With with my husband.

Nate, did you have this discussion?

Yes or no?

The discussion we had was

that we would buy a house with the possibility of installing the pool.

So the the house we have has a backyard big enough for a pool,

but it wasn't concrete.

We'll have a pool within by the end of 2018 or something.

So the two of you discussed that possibility

in her case because she wanted to then install a pool, and in your case, because you wanted to deny her the possibility of installing a pool.

You wanted to make sure that it was possible for you to be the one who said we cannot have a pool rather than the geography.

No, I don't think she would have agreed to buy a house where it was impossible.

Right.

So you said, I agree that it is possible that a pool can be installed.

And she inferred from that that you would agree to a pool in the future, but you were just keeping the possibility open, knowing that it would never be binding upon you to install a pool.

Nate, I don't want to know your last name, but I'm sure you have a middle name.

What is it?

Is it Mr.

Loopholes?

No, it's Kevin.

Well, Kevin Loopholes.

You successfully outlawyered your wife.

I hope you're proud of yourself.

Pam, he's right.

It's not a binding contract.

Here's my question.

Pam, do you love to swim?

Um, yeah.

You're not making a great case for yourself.

Well, swim.

I'm not a great swimmer.

I enjoy being in the water and doing like so.

I want a play pool, and I think Nate is, I mean,

talked about that.

What's a play pool?

Playpool is like a pool that's like three feet on one end, five in the middle, three on the other side, so you can play like water volleyball.

Okay, is that a passion of yours?

I enjoy doing it.

We lived with my parents leading up to buying our house.

My parents have a playpool, and we lived with them during the heat of the summer.

So we did do that.

I also like to exercise, like run and bike and stuff.

It's hard to do that in the summer, hence Arizona.

So I did

engage in water aerobics in the pool and that's something I found I could remain active doing and I would like to have a pool so I can do that in the summer.

In water aerobics, are you like tying floats to your feet and and stuff

and like building resistance training in the playpool?

Well, that's what I would like to do.

I kind of did my own version of water aerobics.

Sounds like you do your own version of everything, Pam.

Well, you know.

Yeah, I know.

What's your own version?

Floating on a float shaped like a slice of pizza while drinking a daiquiri?

No.

That's my version.

Sounds better, though.

Yeah.

There's a lot of rocks in Arizona, so I would like lift rocks in the water because I just had them accessible to me.

All right.

Let me understand this, Pam.

You don't want a swimming pool so much as you want a very specific kind of wading pool

that

you couldn't swim from one end to the other because you'd bump your knees and you want to fill it with rocks.

No.

There's an argument to be made.

for the budget conscious

that installing a pool would enhance the value of your investment of your home.

And I'm going to be honest with you, Pam.

People can like what they like,

but I don't like the sound of this play pool.

This sounds like a kid's pool.

I've never heard of.

Have you heard of such a thing, Jesse?

No, I'm pretty sure she's made it up.

No, I've.

And I'm also pretty sure that her imagined activity of pool volleyball is going to be very difficult to do without the participation of other pool volleyball players.

Well, like her mom and dad, who already have one of these pools and live nearby.

I guess.

Pam, you know, I was 100% on your side because dudes are usually wrong.

But I got to say, if I were looking at homes in Arizona, I'm like, I want one with a pool, and I'm looking at two houses that have pools that you can dive into and swim in, and also have a shallow area where you can hang around and do whatevs.

And then I look at your place that has this weird r uh puddle in the back with a volleyball net, and it's all full of boulders you picked up.

I don't think I would pay a premium for that house.

Am I wrong?

Well, the pool you just described isn't one that I want, but

because I don't want boulders in the pool.

Well, you said you bring up, you take rocks into the pool.

Well, small rocks that I can hold and move, and then they don't stay in the pool.

Oh, okay.

You improvise weights.

Sure.

Yes, exactly.

You locally forage your dumbbells.

I w we were trying to buy a house, so I wasn't going to go out and buy, you know, weights and things of that sort.

How far away do your parents live?

Uh they're about twenty miles.

Do you have access to any other pools nearby?

Um, the same distance, twenty miles.

Nate's parents have a pool.

Oh, I have some evidence here that was submitted from a couple named Nikki and Greg.

Yes.

Who are they?

Nikki is my sister, and Greg is her husband.

Okay.

Pam, you withheld evidence from me of a third pool.

Nate, how close is this pool to you?

Probably 25 minutes.

But so, but I don't know how fast you drive there.

Closer than the 20 miles, I would imagine.

They're all about 25 minutes.

They're all about 25 minutes away.

So

this triangle of pools that surround you.

And I want to emphasize here, John, for your benefit, that if you're driving a 25-year-old German car in Phoenix, Arizona in the summer, 20 miles in any direction means potential death.

Yeah, that's true.

Nikki and Greg, right?

Pam can come over and use our pool anytime she wants.

She is a lovely and sincere person, capable of no wrong.

Nate can use our pool as well, but must give us at least 24 hours warning.

However, Nikki and Greg say we think Nate and Pam should get their own pool because we want to have pool parties at their house.

Your own sister, Nate.

Yeah.

I had to include the mean part about me just to get her to sign it.

That's a contract.

Each person gets something.

Some evidence you did submit were a picture picture of your sister's pool and your in-law's pools i presume the this is the a picture of nikki's pool yeah there's a picture of nikki's pool and a picture of pam's parents pam's parents pool pam's parents playpool exactly i've just renamed this this episode of the podcast

is it pretty because pam's parents pretty play pool

uh

Now this is, see, now, Pam.

Nikki's pool is a pool I'm talking about.

Kidney-shaped, classic pool.

Deep end, shallow end.

Looks like there's some kind of hot tub in there.

What's that?

Yeah, there's a built-in spa.

Spa, yeah.

Pam, I got to tell you, your mom and dad's pool looks weird to me.

It's a play pool.

I don't like it.

Sorry.

It also has a cover over it that helps keep it warm.

Oh, so the water might look weird.

Do you have trouble keeping your pools warm in Arizona?

Only on the edges of the swimming season.

I see.

Okay.

I would imagine you would have trouble keeping your pools wet in Arizona.

Well, part of the cost of maintaining a pool is constantly refilling it.

Yeah, tell me more about the cost.

Refilling it because of evaporation, cleaning.

The chemicals are probably $800 to $1,300 a year.

Have you figured out the whole cost of maintenance per year?

No, I would ballpark at around

$2,000 a year.

You don't seem to spend a lot of time in courtrooms, my friend.

You've got to come armed.

Come armed with some evidence.

Yeah, this is not a moot court.

This is a standard court.

Well,

the article I sent you says $780 to $1,300 a year for chemicals.

Well, then you say that.

And then,

but there's also...

I'm a busy guy thinking I'm going to read read every article you send me.

I ask a simple question.

You have the information at your fingertips.

Yeah, why are you sending us articles?

What are you, my mom?

So $1,300 a year.

Do you want to say that?

That's your strongest case.

Sure.

$1,300.

I'll say that.

$1,300 a year.

Pam, how frequently will you use this pool if I order in your favor?

I used it almost every day in the summer at my parents' house.

Days that I didn't have long shifts.

I went into the pool because it's, I ordinarily like to run.

It's so hard to do

in the summer.

There's water running.

It sounds weird, but it can be done in the playpool, and I did a lot of that.

How tall are you, Pam?

Because I may be misunderstanding.

I'm 5'4.

You're 5'4.

So in the middle of the playpool,

you're staring down death.

You'll still be standing, but you can do stuff in the middle of the playpool.

You can do that, or you can run the perimeter of the pool.

Sounds really boring.

In the water.

Yeah.

Right.

Pam, just a question.

Have you heard of swimming as a way of getting exercise?

Yeah.

Or enjoying pools?

Nate, do you like swimming?

I do.

Okay, good.

Do you like pools?

I like big pools.

So I was actually in high school a competitive swimmer.

So I like what I consider real pools, but those are much larger than play pools.

He likes big.

Is your resistance to this actually about your contempt

for Pam's parents' pretty play pool?

No, and actually, if you ordered us to get a pool, I would prefer a play pool too, because they're...

Why?

Yeah, now I'm on nobody's team.

They're more useful.

No, they're not useful.

I grew up with a pool with a diving board.

Yeah.

So

where did you grow up?

San Gabriel Valley.

I don't know where that is.

That's near Los Angeles.

That's Pool Central.

Okay.

And so, and you grew up with a pool with a diving board,

and

all the kids came came by and you would tell these stories on your first dates about all your diving board pool adventures and Pam married you and once you tricked her into marrying her you said no pools ever again and now she's crying she's filling up a ditch with her tears and she's gonna do water aerobics in it

that's exactly right that's all I need to hear I'm going to go into my chambers and and think about this and I'll come back with my verdict please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Pam, aren't there some sort of public pool services in this nightmare desert where you live?

They exist.

How far do you have to go to get to a YMCA or equivalent?

There's a public pool less than a mile away.

What's wrong with that?

Kids pee, poop, throw up in the pool.

And she's a nurse, so she spends all day dealing with other people's pee, poop, and vomit.

She doesn't want to swim in it when she gets home.

Nate, if you spend the money on this pool, is it money that you will

get back if and when you eventually sell this home?

If we're lucky, we'll break even.

But, you know, coming of age during the Great Recession, I don't have the most faith in the housing market.

I don't really view it as an investment.

Pam, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

Good.

Nate, how do you feel?

Please don't end your statement with a question mark.

I think I'm going to lose.

I think the Grinch who wants to point to the budget usually loses.

I wouldn't mind something saying that she has to mostly take care of it, though.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You may be seated.

My astral form was floating around the courtroom when I was meditating in my chambers on my verdict, and I heard that Nate said that if he were to lose, he would like Pam to be responsible for the maintenance.

Pam, is that acceptable to you?

Absolutely.

So here's the thing.

This is definitely a case, as in many cases before it, where I am naturally inclined to reward passion over miserliness.

If something is reasonably affordable and it will give one party tremendous happiness and will also increase the value of a home or something or offer some other tangible benefit besides just the happiness of one party, my inclination is to say to usually the husband, stop being a jerk and let your partner have what makes her happy.

I'm going to try to be kind,

but necessarily blunt in saying neither of you came to this case with a lot of passion or preparedness.

And Pam,

you know, maybe it's just your laconic nature that you developed over your years of working

a difficult and tiring and often thankless job of taking care of other people's bodily fluids

that you may be too tired right now to really convince me of your passion for lifting rocks and bodies of water.

I still think you want this thing.

Obviously, you wouldn't be here if you didn't.

But there's another problem here.

This is one where the principle of the court comes up against the taste of the court.

I do not understand this pool at all.

I would not, if I were led into a house that I was told had a pool, and I discovered at its deepest in the middle it was five feet and on either end it was three feet, I would say, can you knock off a hundred thousand dollars?

Because I don't want it.

Do you know why?

Because I like to swim.

Didn't always like to swim, but now I love swimming.

And I don't think I'm in the minority of people in the world who, when they think of a swimming pool, swimming is in the name for a reason.

That said, people like what they like in this life, even if it goes against my taste.

And Pam, I don't want to deny a registered nurse anything in this life, and I am always prepared to deny a law clerk

everything,

especially if he comes at me with, there's no consideration in the contract.

I don't need your weasel language, sir.

If you want to have this

wading pool,

even though your own mom and dad have one,

if you don't want to branch out and mature and grow as a human being and instead just have what mom and dad have

and stop messing around with floats and contraptions and rocks, and instead engage in what a pool is meant for swimming,

then I don't know what to say.

But if that's you, that's fine.

That said,

I don't think that you guys, having just purchased this house

and having other expenses, and having embarked on this financial misadventure so recently,

I'm not sure I do feel that it is the correct decision to rush into a major investment of a very specific kind of pool

that is

not typical of what other home buyers might expect.

I think it might make more sense, to be perfectly honest, to take some time and reduce your expenses by paying down that, what's it called, Nate?

PMI.

How dare you?

Private.

I don't remember what these initials are for.

Don't legalize me.

Private mortgage insurance.

Yeah.

And set aside some money at the same time, not only for the pool, but also for giving Nate a shower

that is uncoffin-like

at the very least, because that is definitely something that will increase the value of your home and will bring justice to the world because

now you both will have

the special water fund that you want to have.

So here is my ruling.

There shall be a pool, but I find in Nate's favor, insofar as PMI must be PRO'd, paid right off,

during which time

savings account set up for pool,

ongoing pool maintenance, and new shower for Nate.

Then once PMI is PRO'd, deploy savings account and have your water fun, both of you.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Pam,

how are you going to find a new place to bring rocks

in the aftermath of this decision?

Well, I have a couple options, so I'm not entirely screwed.

You could try land running in wet clothes.

I could try that.

Thank you for the option.

Nate, how do you feel?

That went much better than I could have hoped, so pretty good.

Nate, Pam, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That's another case in the books.

Now, Judge Hodgman, before before we pass out a little swift justice, we want to thank Sandra Mackey for naming this week's episode, or possibly Sandra Mack.

She named it Marco Justice.

If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, that's where we put out the call for submissions.

We're also on Instagram at JudgeJohn Hodgman.

You can follow us at Twitter, at Jesse Thorne, and at Hodgman.

H-O-D-G-M-A-N.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag J-J-H-O.

And check out the maximum fun subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com to chat about the episode.

This week's episode recorded by Gene Baron at Central Sound at Arizona PBS, our producer, Jennifer Marmer.

Now, let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Billy asks, Must I always count the money from the ATM?

I think I should trust all machines to do this counting accurately for us.

Trust all machines.

Trust all machines.

That sounded like the start of some kind of robot march.

Yes, that was me doing the Daleks from Doctor Who.

Got it.

That is their motto after they have enslaved humanity.

It sounded like after that, it should just go.

If you don't know the Daleks from Doctor Who,

they are a kind of mobile ATM

with a plunger on its nose that kills people.

Got it.

That is exactly why you should not be trusting all machines, Billy.

A machine gun is not a robot, but an ATM is not faultless.

Now, it may be the case that I am simply a terrified weirdo that I have counted every dollar I've ever gotten out of an ATM and that has never miscounted once, not in 25 years of using such a thing.

But I still think you should count your money.

It's your money.

You want to make sure you have all your money.

You should also take a look at your bank statements from time to time.

This is all just being a part of a responsible grown-up.

If it gave you $20 too much, would you give it back to the ATM?

I'd shove it right back in its plunger nose.

I have never counted them.

It wouldn't even have occurred to me to count the money.

Really?

You don't count it every time?

No, there's a robot in there that makes sure there's the right amount of money.

Maybe for me, it's the case that I just enjoy reminding myself that I can do simple math.

Got it.

Five times 20 is 100 every time.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJ H O or email us, hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case too small.

We love to get your cases.

I can't emphasize that enough.

If you're kind of considering something, send it to us.

Yeah.

Send it along.

Tell you what, don't you worry about it.

I'll be the judge.

Exactly.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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