Nap Judgment

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm summertime fun-time guest bailiff Monty Belmonte filling in for Jesse Thorne.

This week, nap judgment.

Ann files suit against her husband Stephen.

When they travel, Anne wants to keep a regular sleeping schedule to avoid grogginess.

But Stephen thinks the point of vacation is to relax.

He wants the flexibility to sleep his whole vacation away.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Who's ready to hit the sack?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise and shine.

As Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

The whole world is doing it wrong, and I can't not correct them.

But there's too many of you, more than I can save.

And when I torch the place and cover up my face, that will make me judge.

Summertime, fun time, time, guest bailiff Monty Belmonte, please swear the litigants in.

Ann and Stephen, please rise and raise your right hands.

Wipe the sleep out of your eyes.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, Hypnos, the Greek god of sleep, Rip Van Winkle, nap activist Ariana Huffington, or whomever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that I think I know no other man who prioritizes sleeping and napping more than the honorable judge.

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Thank you very much, Monty Belmonte.

The litigants may be seated.

I'm here again in the studios of WERU with guest engineer Joel Mann.

Hello, Joel.

Hello, Judge.

They're here in Orland, Maine, and of course, talking to Summertime Funtime Guest Bailiff Monty Belmonte at WRSI the River in my home Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Northampton, Massachusetts, specifically.

Hello, Monty.

Hello.

Now, Anne and Stephen, it is nice to meet you virtually.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, I trust that both of you will be able to name the piece of culture that I reference as I enter the courtroom.

Ann, why don't you guess first?

I did not recognize it, so I'm going with my fake guess, which is Macbeth by William Shakespeare.

Oh.

Oh, you must never say those words on a podcast.

Now one of us will come to an untimely death.

We all have to whistle quickly to break the curse.

Whistle, Joel.

All right, good.

I didn't whistle.

Continue with the Scottish podcast.

Whistling into microphones is almost as bad as chewing into them.

All right.

So, and we have put the Scottish podcast into the guest book.

And now, Stephen, what is your guess?

I'm going to go with Vacation Land by John Hodgman.

Because I'm pandering and I also have no idea.

Vacation Land by John Hodgman.

We'll put that into the guest book.

I have entered those two guesses into the guest book.

I'm very, very disappointed in both of you because all guesses are wrong.

In fact,

those were lyrics from the Jonathan Colton song Brave from the brand new Jonathan Colton album Solid State.

As I have read through

my case briefing, I can see that the two of you both attended the Jonathan Colton Cruise in 2014, where I was as well.

And since you are trying to turn my whole podcast into a buzz market for my friend's Cruise, I figured I might as well lead off by plugging his brilliant new album.

If you haven't listened to it, every person within the sound of my voice, go right away to jonathancolton.com and order your copy of Solid State.

It's an amazingly brilliant album that I was listening to on vinyl this morning here in the state of Maine.

But because both of you failed to identify the lyrics of one of your favorite recording artists and cruise operators, and we're going to go ahead and hear this case.

Anne, you are bringing this case against Stephen, is that correct?

Yes.

And what is your complaint against your husband?

Am I going to guess?

Yeah, good.

My darling beloved.

What's his prob?

Basically, that

we go on vacation and

And I kind of jump up in the morning and he sleeps in, and it makes me sad because I miss him in the morning.

And it also means that I

kind of wander around aimlessly until there's something for us to do together.

But the other thing is that I've noticed when we go on vacation, we do tend to do better when we like get up at the same time and do active things together

instead of just hanging around looking at our electronics.

But Anne, let me clarify.

This only happens when you're on vacation, this sleeping discrepancy.

It happens sometimes on the weekends, but there's

always something to do at home.

But normally, you both have jobs of some kind.

Yes.

What is your job, if I may ask, Anne?

Oh, I'm a medical librarian.

Fantastic.

Does that mean that you

curate a library of preserved brains?

Oh, I wish it were that interesting.

No, it means that when doctors can't access their electronic content, I'm the one who swears at the computer on their behalf.

Okay.

And Stephen,

do you currently have a job?

You know, I just got a job offer about an hour and a half ago.

Oh, I do have one now.

Yes, thank you.

Database manager for a small association.

Oh, I would advise you not to accept that job.

I've done it before and I'm looking forward to it again.

No, that's wonderful.

Congratulations.

So you're now going to have to start getting up in the mornings on the regular.

But I have been.

He has been.

We've been getting up at 5.15, and then bless his heart, he takes me to work before he does his job hunting.

Oh, well, guess what?

I find in Stephen's favor, this is the sound of a gavel.

Goodbye.

Anyone who does that for his wife, how can I

so far, you know what, Stephen?

We've had a long run.

of heteronormative married couples where the dude has got some scheme why he doesn't have to be a member of civilization.

But right now, you're doing pretty good if you're getting up 5.15 every morning on a work night to drive your wife Ann to the medical library.

Good job.

Thank you, thank you.

I trust she would return the favor.

I will.

But now I understand a little bit better that this is a vacation issue because

when you're on vacation, Stephen, you may not want to wake up at 5.15 a.m.

to go see an aqueduct or in the case of the Jonathan Colton Cruise, some nerds play tabletop games or whatever.

Yes, yes.

That's a cue for you to defend yourself.

Oh, good point.

I also tend to go to sleep a bit later than Anne.

So,

you know, we go to.

Yeah, I'm bringing this up, honey.

So when we go to bed, I'll read to her for a while, and then after that, I'll play on my phone or something, and then turn on.

You'll read to her for a while?

Yes.

Apparently, the monotony of my voice puts her to sleep, so I'm happy to oblige.

What part of the world are you from?

England, originally.

Oh, really?

What a surprise.

Fantastic.

What do you read to Anne at night?

Let's see, various things, obviously.

Jane Austen.

There you go.

Jane Austen, Georgette Hire.

Light things.

Things that are of no consequence and won't upset either of us.

What was the second one that you mentioned?

Georgette Hire?

Regency Romances.

Oh,

cool.

It's kind of like if Jane Austen and P.

G.

Woodhouse collaborated on a novel.

I would love to have you read me to sleep every night.

Yeah, I want to crawl into bed with you.

I know.

Jeez.

You stay up late.

You want to sleep in.

On vacation, what does sleeping in mean to you?

What time?

Stephen.

You know, when I naturally wake up, but it tends to be seven, eight o'clock, maybe?

I was thinking eight or nine on the last vacation.

Yeah.

It does vary.

So anywhere between seven and nine.

And what time do you want to wake up?

I usually still wake up at 5.30, or if I'm being crazy, 6.

And you want Stephen to get up with you on vacation at 5.30 in the morning?

Well, I could give him till 6.

How about this?

I would like Stephen to go out and have breakfast with me.

So if breakfast is available at 7,

I am fine with him waking up at 2 minutes to 7 and pulling on his shorts and shirt and running out.

Okay.

And you also accused him of

using devices in bed after he woke up to delay the getting out of bed and running to breakfast with you?

Yeah, we are both slightly guilty of that.

Then I condemn you both to hell.

Only because I am also guilty of it and I'm trying to stop using internet in bed.

It is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very bad thing to do.

Because it is basically putting your brain into predator mode where you are constantly anxiously searching for the next hit of dopamine.

It is not good for falling asleep and it is not good for wasting time while waking up.

So right away, I'm going to say stop that, both of you, because I can't, so I'm going to be mad at you.

So, and I have to say, just off the top of my head, on vacation, asking someone to get up at 6 a.m.

is a pretty big ask.

But let me hear more of your story, and perhaps that will change my mind.

Let's go back.

to the Jonathan Colton cruise 2014, where apparently something went down down that brought this issue to a head, such that you are now taking it on my podcast three years later.

What happened?

Well,

part of what happened is poor Stephen packed the wrong thing of medicine.

He packed an empty thing instead of a full thing, and consequently,

he was a lot more sleepy.

And I completely understand that and adore him regardless.

But it meant he was more sleepy because he didn't pack his special medicine.

Yeah, you know, my steak tastes better medicine.

Well, in a minute.

I gotcha.

Sorry.

And also went into hyper-introvert mode, we'll say.

Okay.

So

I feel like I spent half of that cruise on my own and that he'd come out.

and we'd go to the concerts together.

Gotcha.

But I missed him.

I mean,

I was sad.

Well, so I'm sorry that you didn't have the greatest experience on the cruise.

For those who don't know, the Jonathan Colton cruise is a fun week on a boat with a bunch of fans of Jonathan Colton and

nerd culture of all stripe and

arguably fans of me and lots of other incredible performers such as Amy Mann and Ted Leo and John Roderick and many others and comedy.

It's a really fun, I'm going ahead and plugging this cruise because it's a really fun time.

And I only go every other year and I'm going to be going on it in 2018 in February.

I'm going to buy tickets now and you can go and check it out.

Ann and Stephen, am I going to see you on this cruise?

We went last year and since Stephen didn't have a job for half of this year, we've been wrestling with it.

Oh, well, now he's got a job, so you have to go.

We have to hang out in the hot tub together.

There we go.

No matter what happens.

Well,

and I was also going to say, and content-wise, so we had a blast at the concerts, obviously, but then I went to like talks and the management Q ⁇ A, and I would come back and I would tell Stephen how they said this and this and this, and it was so funny.

And

then I compare that to

a cruise we had in.

2015 and it sounds like all we do are cruises, but I kind of looked back at our vacations and the ones where I felt better and more refreshed.

And they were the ones where we got up and we did things together.

And physical activity is another variable there.

And the thing that I have not expressed that I need to

is

I have the potential to be just

as naughty, I will say, as Stephen, as far as slacking off or saying, let's take a nap instead of going for a lovely walk or engaging with other human beings.

Are you suggesting that that sleeping past 6 a.m.

is naughty?

No, I'm actually thinking more of like naps in the afternoon.

Uh-huh.

Does Stephen have a nap problem?

Oh, we have such a nap problem.

Because they say it should be a 30 minutes and it's like if we conk out, it's two to three hours or nothing.

Both of you.

Yeah, and this was the thing.

Well, I guess I won't jump the gun evidence-wise, but

yeah, we've missed activities because we were napping.

Well, go ahead and jump the gun evidence-wise.

I'd love to hear the story about what you missed because you were napping.

Okay, well, this was a different cruise.

This was a river cruise in France.

Just a quick question.

How many cruises have you been on?

Uh-oh.

Five or six.

Let's see.

I've been on three Joco cruises, and Stephen's been on two.

And then we went on two obscure just cruise cruises.

And then one river cruise cruise.

Nod nerd.

Nod nerd, yes.

Right.

So I've been on five.

Sh she's been on six.

How many kids do you have?

Zero.

Oh,

you guys are doing it right.

Well, there's a cat, but.

Oh, sure.

There's a cat that's fantastic that sits on your chest while you're reading Jane Austen

erotica to your beloved.

Actually,

he sits on Ann's on Anne while I'm reading.

Whatever.

And then you guys get up the next day and do whatever you feel like doing.

Pretty much.

Go on a cruise.

Look, I love my children, but I got to say, you guys are doing everything right.

And it seems to me when people are doing everything right, they shouldn't be looking for fights to have with each other.

Especially when poor Stephen, the only reason Stephen was low gie in that one cruise was that he forgot to bring whatever his medicine is.

Yeah, but he's...

We're taking that off the books right now.

That whole cruise is not evidence for you.

Now, tell me about the evidence when you were on this river cruise, when you took a nap and you missed something important.

Well,

I have only been to France once, and that was on that cruise.

And I have always wanted to go to the Louvre, even though I understand that it's very crowded and

the first hallway is full of 400 pictures of the baby Jesus.

So on that cruise, we decided not to go to the Louvre so we could take a nap.

And we went to Bermuda where we had booked a sunset sail excursion.

That was another cruise.

And we took a nap through that.

So, yeah,

there's a nap trend.

Well, you made, but you made an active choice to skip the Louvre for a nap.

I did, to my eternal regret.

But this is also where I think...

Yeah, I think there's an argument that you made the wrong decision there.

But it's not as though you you decided to take a nap and then you woke up and you're like, oh,

we slept until the Louvre was closed and now we missed it.

Yeah, no, it was more like,

wow, we're both really tired.

And the cruise people said, if anybody has changed their mind about the excursion to the Louvre, then let us know because we can give your tickets to somebody else.

But was that a mutual decision or was Stephen putting pressure on he was putting nap pressure on you?

It was a mutual decision.

Well, we could go see all those pictures of baby Jesus with those crowds, or I could read some Jane Austen erotica to you.

No,

it was him going, I could skip that, and me going, yeah, I guess.

And then him saying, I promise I'll take you back to the Louvre.

So.

You guys talk funny when you're together.

You guys talk in yawn talk.

No, no.

But so we're like.

You understand?

This is a dispute podcast.

What I want you to say is Stephen made me take a nap instead of going to see the Mona Lisa.

Stephen is a fine human being who respects my free will and is very much into consent.

But the thing is, and I guess what legally I'm trying to get is a ruling where he is permitted to kick my butt to make

me

not nap.

So you also have a sleep problem.

It's not just him, is what you're saying.

Right.

He's got the sleeping in problem, but then we both have the nap problem.

Let's take a quick break.

We'll hear more about Ann and Stephen's travels when we come back in just a minute.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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Ann and Stephen disagree disagree about how they should manage sleeping schedules on vacation.

Why does it matter to Ann if Stephen sleeps in?

Let's go back into the courtroom to find out.

But let's get back to Stephen's so-called sleeping in problem.

When that lazy layabout sleeps in until 6.30 a.m.

And you're awake for a whole hour before he starts to stir, what do you do with yourself?

It depends.

On our last cruise, it worked out really well because we bought a laptop and so I wrote.

I went away and I wrote.

I actually went to the fantastic gaming room on the Joco cruise where there are many tables and

wrote and watched people interact.

And so that was very nice.

But the downside of that is then I have breakfast because they have a fabulous breakfast.

We are really selling this cruise, you guys.

Well, I like to support the arts.

But then Stephen would come and I'd have breakfast again.

And that's like a whole nother series of health issues that

we'll just start the Ann and Stephen health issue podcast.

Second breakfast is a time-honored nerd tradition.

I appreciate that.

That is very hobbity of you.

Yeah.

Well, I'm not sure I appreciate.

So you go have breakfast, and then he wakes up and wants to to have breakfast.

He wants to have his breakfast.

Yeah, so I make her half second breakfast.

You make her half second breakfast?

And and and you are you unable to uh to say, I'll just sit here and have a cup of coffee and watch you eat?

No, I'm I'm incapable of that.

Because there's always something different.

That and I don't drink coffee, so.

All right, got it.

We both drink tea.

You know, Ann, you're not making a very strong case for yourself here.

I need you to explain to me and to Monty and Joel, to the listeners of the world, and especially to Stephen,

how it makes you feel when he does not join you

for morning activities and instead chooses to rest.

The thing is,

we tend to come back from vacations

tired.

I mean, past experience has indicated that on the vacations where we get up and we do stuff and

we're kind of on the same schedule, we come home and we feel kind of rested and happy.

And then there are vacations where we're kind of off schedule or we opt for the nap instead of the walk.

And we come home and we're still feeling tired and out of sorts.

And my feeling is, this is such a great man.

I mean,

I adore him.

And

if we join our forces for good,

we can achieve fabulous things and have amazing vacations because we have in the past.

But if we indulge our

slacker side, then we're going to keep having vacations that are kind of,

and the thing is, is if I tell you about any, and I don't want to brag about our vacations, but if I tell you things about our vacations, you go, oh, it's a great vacation but there's like the things that you experience and then the way that you experience them

and I feel like

we could do better and that that we're missing an opportunity

and I don't think that it's a conscious thing on Stephen's part I don't think that he logic it out and said

if I sleep in, it's going to make me be more refreshed.

I think it's more,

you know,

you're a bear and you get out of the cave and you go, I'm going to go back in the cave.

So you're accusing him not of wanting to rest more.

You're accusing him of being more introverted and more prone to choose sleep over activity than you would like.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm the same way.

But, you know,

I'm trying to do better and

I want his help in doing better.

I think it would be healthier for us in the long run.

It isn't just about enjoying vacations more.

It's about enjoying life, life

more.

So, all right, it sounds to me like, first of all, Stephen, do you agree with Ann's assessment

that you come back from vacations having wasted opportunities and generally feeling tired and sluggish and quote-unquote out of sorts?

There is, yeah, there's definitely been

several vacations I can point to where that's been the case.

Yes.

Have you ever heard the term, I need a vacation from my vacation?

Yes.

Joel, you ever hear that term, I need a vacation from my vacation?

Yes, I have.

Monty, you ever hear the term, I need a vacation from my vacation?

I bet I've even said it.

Yeah, right.

There's a reason for it.

If you're doing vacations right, it's stimulating.

It's a balance of rest and also activity.

But you agree with Anne's assessment that sometimes your balance of rest and activity is out of whack.

Too much rest.

Yes, I have to agree with that, unfortunately.

You want to manage your vacation time better, too.

Yes, yes.

Yes.

I'm not averse to it.

But there is just, you know, it's just nice to get up when I wake up, and that's just later.

Well, right.

But are you sad that you missed the Louvre?

Yeah.

I mean, that was an expensive nap.

I mean,

because

we also didn't go up the Eiffel Tower, and that was partly just ⁇ that was mostly poor planning.

But that nap...

Because you fell asleep on the elevator?

Yeah, no, we didn't get that far because the lines were too long, and we hadn't pre-bought tickets.

But no, really, that was an expensive nap.

I mean, I promised her that we'd go back sometime, so that's, you know, another vacation to France, which is not a bad thing at all.

There's plenty of things to see in Paris and then elsewhere in France, but it's a bit of an expensive nap, yeah.

So

you are going to keep your promise to take her to the Louvre.

That's the expense you're talking about.

Yes, exactly.

So, if not sleeping in,

which I argue you do not do, you sleep to a normal hour for vacation.

Does that make me prejudiced?

Because I am pre-judging this case, yes.

But without the issue of sleeping in, where do you see

you or Anne going wrong in your rest versus activity management, Stephen?

Hint, hint, napping.

You know, well, we've taken naps in about a half dozen world capitals so far.

So I'm not sure if that's a bad trend or not.

Is there structure to your vacation days as they stand?

And do you plan out what you're going to do?

It depends on the vacation.

The one thing about the France Cruise is that they did have excursions every day.

One thing about theme parks, which we haven't mentioned, and we don't do them hugely, but like we went on our honeymoon, is

usually there's a park that opens early.

So if we go to the early hours to avoid the crowds, then we're doing that early.

But then we take a break in the afternoon and go back to the hotel.

And if we go swimming to relax, I think that's more effective than taking a nap to relax.

And then we have the energy to go out into the park in the evening and see fireworks.

So, Anne, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

Stephen gets up when you get up,

no naps,

and you both go to bed at the same time?

Well, and you've almost persuaded me on my monsterdom regarding the wake-up time.

But I would like us to engage in more physical activity.

And yes, only have naps in world capitals.

Only have naps in world capitals.

I thought

you didn't want to sleep through the Louvre again.

I don't want to sleep through the Louvre.

Well,

only like if we go to Rome, Italy, if only if it's a world capital that we haven't been to, then I feel like we need to take a nap there.

Oh, you got, and you're all over the map.

I'm sorry.

Are you trying to find the nap capital of the world?

No, it's just we've napped in enough world capitals that I feel like that that's okay to continue if it's a new world capital.

We can add to our list of world capitals.

But other than that, no naps.

Because a lot of places are...

Well, now that's part of a challenge.

It's the World Capital Nap Challenge.

It's just our own personal bucket list.

But we go to many places that are not world capital.

So

I think that could work out.

Anne.

Yes.

You brought your beloved husband here.

I'm still not clear what the problem is.

Tell me what you want me to order him to do.

What behavior does he need to modify specifically when you go on your next vacation?

Do you have it planned?

We don't because we've been up in the air with the job thing.

We've been talking about a cruise.

Yeah, a cruise up to New England and Canada.

Up through New England and Canada.

That probably includes Maine, Joel.

Good luck there.

Yeah, that's probably, you're probably going to stop.

Your cruise ship is probably going to stop right there in Bar Harbor.

Bar Harbor, yes, it does.

So

get up and have breakfast.

What time?

I think seven.

You guys are in love with each other so much you're afraid to yell at each other and give weird ultimatums.

It's

a most unusual married couple I've ever met.

Well, that's why we came here so you could yell at us and give us weird ultimatums.

You're so used to mutual respect and understanding that you don't want to use my podcast to passively, aggressively get me to push your partner around for you.

It's like you don't have any stored-up gripes that you want to use me to enact vengeance on at all.

They're so well-rested, they can't even figure out how to be angry at each other.

I know, right?

They lead a frictionless, childless life.

of reading to each other and waking up and going on cruises and then wash, rinse, repeat.

It sounds like I'm mad at you, but I'm not.

But I might throw you out of this court if you don't tell me what you want me to order Stephen to do specifically.

So here we go.

When you go on, first of all, and also,

like, you know, now that he's got this job, you could go to the Louvre or you can go to the Jonathan Colton Cruise.

Those are the two themes we've got going in this podcast.

I don't need you entering the Bar Harbor cruise into this and muddying the waters, the cruise waters, as it were.

Pick one of those two, Anne.

Jonathan Colton Cruz or the Louvre.

And Jonathan Colton, I I can guarantee you, is not listening to this podcast.

So speak freely.

I can't handle the pressure.

Okay, Jonathan Colton.

Okay, Jonathan Colton Cruz.

What time does Stephen wake up?

Two minutes before seven.

Let's just say seven.

Okay.

Say seven.

Well, I want to be out the door at seven, but okay.

Seven.

Well, then you, then you got to say 6.45 a.m.

He's a pretty fast dresser, but okay.

No, we'll say 6.

So I don't want you blowing an air horn in his ear at 6.58.

Thank you, Judge.

And making him leap out of bed.

If you want someone to be rested, you're not going to torture them.

True, true.

Okay.

6.45 a.m.

Okay, 7 a.m.

No, I'm.

Who's the judge?

You are the judge.

You want to be out the door at 7.15, then at 7 a.m.

Okay.

You want to be out of the door at 7, then at 6.45.

I'm going to say 7 and be out at 7.15.

You understand that this is just your proposal.

Your words are not speech acts until I rule on them here.

I know, I know.

The second thing is engage in physical activity before and during the cruise.

And that would be in lieu of naps.

In either vacation, you're proposing, the Jonathan Colton Cruise or the Paris trip, we napped in Paris, so there would be no naps on those trips.

Okay, I don't want there to be nap precedent.

I want there to be a clean line here, a clean understanding of what we're talking about.

Okay.

You have already laid claim to the Jonathan Colton Cruise.

You guys both know you are creatures with free will.

You can do whatever vacation you want.

But for the purpose of this podcast, your next vacation is going to be the Jonathan Colton Cruise

2018, booking now at jococruise.com or whatever.

Stephen is going to get up at 6.45 to join you out the door at 7 a.m.

Okay.

There are going to be zero naps on this cruise.

Is that what you're saying?

That is what I am saying.

All right.

And physical activity means what?

Well,

that instead of taking a nap in the afternoon, we would go to the pool as an alternative,

but also making sure that we do.

You got to prop open those eyeballs with toothpicks because no napping pool side, right?

If he managed to pull that off, I might give that to him.

But normally we're in the pool.

So no.

No napping.

Moving around.

Moving around.

And also don't prop open your eyeballs with toothpicks.

Arguably your eyelids, that's the saying, but don't do that either because you're going to hurt your eyes.

And what time does Stephen normally go to bed?

And what time would you like him to go to bed?

We normally go to bed pretty early.

I mean, we kind of go to bed at 8 and read until 9.

Read or he read to?

Yes.

Well, we both kind of mess around on iPads, and then he reads.

Okay.

And then.

So going to bed.

You had said earlier on that Stephen goes to bed too late.

What's he staying up till 9.30 behind your back?

Well,

he does tend to,

like after he is done reading and I am in slumberland, he stays up on his electronic devices sometimes as late as 10 or 11 if he has

life stress.

Would you say?

Okay.

Well, like

he doesn't have a job and he's looking for one?

Yeah.

Yeah, things like that.

Stephen, a question before I start meandering my way over to my stateroom on this cruise ship that is my chambers.

Do you have, personally, Stephen, enough alone time?

I think so.

That's an interesting question.

Not one I've spent a lot of time thinking about.

Clearly not.

I mean, you guys enjoy togetherness very much.

It's apparent in talking to you.

Yeah.

But I guess what I'm asking is

everyone in a relationship does need some time to themselves.

Do you stay up later than you should or want to sleep in later than is asked of you because you just need a little time to yourself?

Not consciously, but I couldn't say it's unconscious.

Somewhere between the conscious and unconscious.

Yeah, yeah.

What stage of sleep is that?

Is that REM?

Yeah, it could be.

I think it's like a Michael Stipe solo.

Okay, fair enough.

And do you have enough alone time in this relationship?

I mean, you do because Stephen leaves you alone in the morning sometime, right?

And you don't like it?

I feel like I do.

You know, we're both pretty good at,

well, here's the thing.

We're both very good at saying, oh, I want some downtime, and the other person's like, fine, but most of the time it's like, oh, I'm fine just sitting next to you at our respective computers and killing monsters, which I kind of consider

downtime.

So.

Y'all are gamers?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What games do you play?

World of Warcraft.

Mostly.

Diablo.

Diablo.

Right.

So you're in your own worlds when you're doing that.

We play together sometimes.

Yeah, when we play.

Yeah, when we play together and then we.

World of Warcraft, we normally play together when we're playing that.

He heals me.

Kept her alive for 10 years now.

Oh, my God.

Okay, she's died a couple times.

I know, that's not scary at all.

Monty Belmonte.

Yes.

What about these two?

These two adults.

You guys are, how old are you?

54.

51.

Fantastic.

And no children at all, not from previous relationships or anything else?

No.

Monty Belmonte.

Envy.

Yeah, right?

Look,

we both both have children we love, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, where'd we go wrong?

I don't know.

You know what time I get up, Judge John Hodgman?

I do, but tell the listeners.

Two o'clock in the morning, Monday through Friday.

Wow.

To go do your morning show at WRSI the River in Northampton, Massachusetts.

What time do you get up, Joel?

As late as possible.

Yeah, that's right.

How do you feel about Stephen sleeping in until 7 a.m.?

What I think, if you really want to know, is that...

This is the most I've ever heard from you in my life.

Yes, please.

They should take a sleep vacation, sleep cation.

Why?

Do you feel that they are sleep deprived?

Yes, I think they should be checked for sleep apnea.

Really?

Why do you think that?

Because they're always sleeping.

You know where they should go, Joel?

They should go to South Africa because South Africa has three capitals, and then you could take a nap in each one of those three capitals and add to your international nap tour.

Sold.

Monty.

Thank you.

Joel was laying down some serious wisdom here about the perils of sleep apnea, undiagnosed sleep apnea.

And you jump in with some geography trivia?

Because I'll tell you what, Brazil also has three capitals.

And you didn't hear me saying anything about that until just now.

Now go to both of those countries, cure your sleep apnea, hit all the capitals, tell us what the nap capital of the world is.

Let me ask you both, Ann and Stephen, per Joel's point, do you feel that your sleep may be compromised by something like sleep apnea and that might be affecting your overall vivaciousness in general?

Anne?

I have been diagnosed with sleep apnea, but

Joel,

you know,

oh my God, right on the button.

He's sitting in front of a board full of buttons and he pressed one button and he was right.

Okay, tell me more about your apnea.

Well, basically, I had it.

I lost a fair amount of weight, and it does not seem to be an issue, at least anecdotally.

Great.

So, I don't think that's an issue.

And, Stephen, is that an issue for you?

It might well be an issue for me, yeah.

And what do you think?

Does he got that apnea?

He's not really a snorer, but I mean, he has the occasional sudden wake-up.

All right.

So, Stephen, you've heard what Anne would have me order when you go on that judge.

I was going to call the Judge John Hodgman cruise, but that is not.

I think it's fine name.

That's not what it is.

All I do is sit in the hot tub and give life advice.

I'm an ancillary on that cruise.

But when we sit in that hot tub, she's going to say, nope, you can't go to sleep in the afternoons.

You've got to wake up at 7 a.m.

What would you have me order instead?

So that I have a decision to make when I go into my

nautical chambers.

Sign up for shore excursions and make sure we're up at a reasonable time for those shore excursions when they're available.

But otherwise, let me sleep in.

What time do you want to sleep till in the morning?

Until I wake up.

Until you wake up.

Yeah.

And that could be 9, 10.

It's been that before.

Got it.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'd like to hear a boatswain's whistle as I move my way into my nautical chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

And, Stephen, usually when I am a guest bailiff, there's one party that I usually somewhat loathe.

But you two are the most delightful-sounding people I have ever heard from in my life, and you seem so kind to one another, and you drink tea, and you wake up with her during the week and take her to work.

But, Anne,

if you didn't wake up so early on a regular basis, do you think your nap issue would not be an issue at all?

You wouldn't need to nap if you'd slept in maybe closer to the time Stephen's circadian rhythms want you to be sleeping here.

I think I'm getting eight hours at night.

But then,

and it's tricky because at home the cat

wakes us up god-awful early.

But I think on vacation, once you're in that habit, it's hard.

And especially the last Joco cruise were, which left out of San Diego.

So it wasn't just that I was waking up at 5.30 East Coast time.

I was waking up at what?

2.30.

2.30 San Diego time.

So in that case, I didn't make him wake up at...

2.30 San Diego time.

Now, assuming you weren't missing out on anything important like the Mona Lisa, what's the problem with taking a nap on a given day, especially on vacation?

There's a recent article in the UK Telegraph that says that sleep is actually more important than exercise or diet.

So isn't it potentially better for your health to take the nap?

That doesn't seem to be how it works for me.

It tends to make me headache.

I hate to take, I can't nap.

That's my problem.

I wake up at 2, and then I'm up until I go to bed at 8 8 or 9.

I get five hours of sleep.

If I take a nap, I turn into a monster when I wake up.

Hmm.

Well, and we've had our moments of that.

Yeah.

Stephen.

Yes.

I know that some of the background information that was sent is that you two met because of your mutual love of Harry Potter.

Yes.

Have you ever read Harry Potter with your British accent out loud to Anne while you're in bed?

It's too scary.

Is it?

I actually

started collecting the first Harry Potter book in foreign languages.

So I've tried reading her the Dutch version, my mother's Dutch.

But it wasn't working.

But we can tell you that in the Dutch version, Dumbledore is named Professor Percamentis.

Now correct my pronunciation.

No, that's close enough.

Okay.

Wow.

You guys are the best kind of nerds.

I read Harry Potter out loud to my wife, and I tried to do the voices, but I am not British like you.

So we'll be back with Judge John Hodgman's verdict.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, Me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

And Stephen, I obviously agree with

my summertime fun time guest bailiff, Monty Belmonte, and I'm certain with Joel that you guys are adorable, right, Joel?

Very adorable.

There we go.

And you have the benefit of

no children

and now once again, and I hope for a long time to come, double income and a delightful love of vacations.

But you are in an unusual circumstance because aside from your jobs, you have very few

outside pressures on how you spend your time.

And therefore, you can be profoundly

selfish as a couple in terms of how you spend your time almost entirely on each other.

And it's wonderful.

And I trust you appreciate it.

It's unusual.

And I love that Anne wants to spend all of her time with Stephen.

And Stephen seems to feel the same way.

All he wants to do is be able to sleep a little later during vacations, which on its face is a totally reasonable request.

Totally reasonable.

And while I appreciate that

as we get older, we wake up earlier naturally.

And,

you know, Monty Belmonte opened this by saying that I prioritize sleep over almost anything.

And I do, but I just can't do it anymore.

I don't sleep the same way I used to, even two years ago.

I'm up routinely now.

Like, I'm, I'm, you know, as we all do, we become our parents, and I'm becoming my dad.

I'm getting up at 5:30 almost every morning.

I can't go back to sleep.

I have to figure out what to do with my day.

And I often feel lonely because my wife is a normal human being.

I appreciate that feeling of aloneness when someone else is sleeping and you are awake and ready to get going in the world.

I envy you both because I used to be a champion napper.

I mean, I got the medals and ribbons and trophies to prove it, but I can't take a nap now at all.

So I appreciate where you're coming from, Anne, but Stephen should be able to sleep a little bit later on what is his vacation.

And as for the naps,

two-hour naps as grown-ups, I think is inappropriate and not good for your physical or mental health.

I think, and you pointed out that

you sent along some data that suggests that most professionals feel that the most refreshing nap is 20 to 30 minutes.

And in my experience, when just closing my eyes for 20 to 30 minutes and not even going to sleep, but just sort of

going into a slightly lower state of consciousness is profoundly meditative and restorative.

That is true.

But a two to four hour nap past the age of

nine,

I think is too much and not necessary.

And I think does bring you into that lowie part of the afternoon.

And if you are taking, if you're ever taking a nap and you're waking up and it's dark outside, you got to change your life.

You got to change your style.

So there, I do think you guys have some work to do.

But that said, there isn't a logic in what Anne says, which is that if they go on vacation, they get too much rest, then they feel unrested.

Especially on a cruise, you do need a rest.

And I wouldn't even beat yourself up over skipping the Louvre that much.

Because the fact is, travel is stimulative more so

than staying at home.

Travel puts things in front of you that your brain cannot deal with.

And when you're on a cruise,

you are on an impossible fallen-down hotel in the middle of an abyss.

And that fallen down hotel is trying to distract you from pondering your mortality so hard with bells, whistles, and casinos, and magic shows and mismatching carpet and overdone decor that you're, and meanwhile, you're walking around and the whole floor is moving all the time at some imperceptible pitch.

You totally need a nap on that boat.

And you totally have the right in your life to say, I'm too tired to go see the Louvre next time.

So there's absolutely nothing wrong with your life except for an abundance of choice.

You have so little, especially when you go on vacation, when you no longer have the structure of

work,

you have no other pressures on either of you except each other to keep your world on a certain pace.

And I think equally problematic in your lives

is not only the length of time asleep, but also the length of time on screens.

I don't want to deny you your love of World of Warcraft and your love of using phones.

I was yelling at you for exactly doing the exact same thing that I do, which is look at my phone in bed and use the internet.

But we all know how, especially looking at screens in bed is profoundly disruptive to healthful sleep because you stay up later than you should.

And you're also bombarding your eyes with light.

And even now you can turn on the night shift on the Apple phone.

But even so, you're still throwing light into your eyes and cueing your brain to be awake and alert at precisely the time you should be winding down, say, by listening to your husband read to you in a beautiful accent while you got a cat on your tummy.

That's the way to go to sleep.

So, yes, I agree with Ann that you guys need to work on your sleep hygiene, both in real life, but especially on vacation.

When I see you on that Jonathan Colton cruise, here's what I want to see in your life: I want Stephen to be up and ready to go by 8 a.m.

Not 7 a.m.

That's still too early.

And

plan out two days during that week when Stephen can sleep as late as he wants.

Make that part of your plan.

I want you guys to block out when you are going to take a siesta, we'll call it, instead of a nap.

Siesta sounds fun.

Nap sounds almost depressive

for grown-ups.

Or at least some meditative downtime that does not involve slaughtering orcs in World of Warcraft.

A time that fits into that schedule that is no longer than an hour so that you build in 20 minutes of wakeful cuddling or reading or whatever on either side.

So you can really go down, get some rest, at least 30 minutes of good rest, and then come back up again, refreshed and ready to go on.

And you guys, you know, should go to bed, you know, continue your incredibly romantic, beautiful going-to-bed routine.

But really, you guys, you both and me have to get those screens out of bed at bedtime.

That is really bad news.

So, that is what I order.

And insofar as I am not following Anne's specific request, and because the time has come for me to rule in favor of one husband this year, I'm going to nominally find in Stephen's favor

and say that, yes, you may sleep as late as you want two days, let's say two-fifths out of every vacation, that's going to be part of your plan.

But I want you guys to plan out your days carefully, allowing activity balanced with rest,

and follow that plan so that everyone gets a little bit of what they want.

Very compromisey sort of verdict, but I don't see how I can do it with two litigants as adorable as you guys are.

Nonetheless, this is the sound of a gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules, that is all.

Stephen, you get to sleep in on vacation.

Congratulations.

Yes, thank you.

And are you okay with this?

You know, I kind of figured, given the week that Stephen had, that he was going to crush me in this.

So, so yes, I'm very satisfied and think, well, I don't want to sound like a cliche that the judge was wise about us having some structure.

Another case put to rest.

That's a bad pun.

I didn't even write that one.

No.

Jennifer Marmor wrote that one, but she knows what's in my wheelhouse.

No, Joel, Joel Mann, tell Monty no.

Monty, please, no.

Thank you, Joel.

You can blame Jennifer Marmor for that one.

I just decided to keep it.

Own it.

Own it, Monty.

That was a good pun.

Thank you very much, both of you, for being on the podcast.

Thank you very much for having us.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Stephen Lepenta for naming this week's episode Nap Judgment.

Thanks, Stephen.

If you'd like to name a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out a call for submissions.

You can follow us on Twitter, at Hodgman, and at Monte Belmonte.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, and check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode.

This week's episode, recorded by Harry and Tristan at Clean Cuts in Washington, D.C., and Joel Mann at WERU in East Orland, Maine.

Our producer and sometimes pun writer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now let's get to the Swift Justice where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Are you ready, good judge John Hodgman?

I'm ready.

Lori W.

asks, if the air conditioning is on and you want it to be warmer, would you turn up the AC or turn down the AC?

Well, I'm going to ask Joel, first of all, here we are in Maine.

Have you ever heard of air conditioning?

I've heard about it, but I haven't really experienced it.

If you want it to be warmer, do you turn up the AC or do you turn down the AC?

I turn it off and open a window.

All right.

Monty, what would you do?

I'd turn up the AC DC.

I can't believe you made Joel Mann laugh with that joke.

Both of you.

Go do your own podcast.

Gross.

That'd be fun, Joel.

We should do that.

If you want it to be warmer,

you turn down the AC.

Yes.

If you want to be colder, you turn up the AC.

I don't even know why that's even a question.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash jjhoe or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case too small.

Thank you, guest bailiff Monty Belmonte and guest engineer Joel Mann.

It's been a pleasure talking to you guys over the radios.

And I just want to give a final plug out to WERU 89.9 in Blue Hill, 99.9 in Bangor, originating here from Orland, Maine.

And Monty Belmonte, you're always on the radio every morning.

Get up every 2 a.m.

to go talk to the people down in Northampton on WRSI, the river 93.9.

Different is good.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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